plastic armor should be illegal
Deimos
To say that plastic armor should be illegal because
it gives the wearer an unfair advantage over those
who do the "correct" thing and wear steel plate armor,
is in my opinion, very late-period biased.
It is true that the SCA spans a good deal of time,
during which many different styles of armor were used, from
full plate, to almost nothing. And yet, for SCA combat
it is impossible to fight with no armor. Wearing plastic
underneath the approriate period tunics is a good way to
simulate NO armor in a game that requires it. The "unfair"
advantage this gives the wearer is the same advantage
an early warrior wearing nothing but a skull cap would have.
The difference would be that the wearer of no armor would
be more likely to die from a good blow, but since we are
supposed to be taking all good blows anyway, it really
isn't worth arguing.
The only unfair thing about it is that we throw several dozen
different styles of armor, weapons, and people into the same battle
situation, but this too, is a reflection of what happened in the past.
I'm sure there were a few peasants who thought it very unfair that
the rich folks had nice armor to protect them when they fought.
I'm also sure that different armies had thoughts about unfairness
as they encountered each other for the first time, before they
had developed methods for working against the other's different
armors.
Bronach Nalbrojtr
Vasyl
can correct me. I used to fight in "plastic" kydex armour. The armour,
shield, helm, swords came to a little more than a third of my body
weight. Since I don't resemble a Coke machine, I can't trounce around in
80# of steel. What was the ratio of armour weight to the fighters weight?
-Vasyl
aka Bogdan Kobzar
Ben Davis
Deimos (gonn...@stsci.edu) wrote:
: full plate, to almost nothing. And yet, for SCA combat
: it is impossible to fight with no armor. Wearing plastic
I'm not SCA, so maybe I need smthg explaining in words of one syllable, but
why do you lot fight in armour ? We (dark ages reenactment; metal weapons,
3mm edges) almost never wear armour; the only people who wear any sort of
body armour as such are normans with mail hauberks. Everyone else just wears
thick gloves, and we have very very few injuries; everyone trains, passes a
safety test to pull the blows while still looking good (I think "lethal
character" is the phrase ...), and noone gets hurt (well, no-one gets hurt
much; injuries are few and far between tho').
My gut feeling about wearing armour is that people are going to get sloppy,
and not pull their blows well; if you know your opponent is unarmoured, you
make sure that you don't land a hard one, 'cause it'd be unfair. If they're
armoured, that care might not be there.
As to the question of plastic armour, I have some trouble with the concept.
Yeah, sure if its hidden its not going to show, but two things spring to
mind, apart from the obvious "why bother ?".
The first is that (IMHO) it'd rankle; how can you feel authentic with half a
plastic barrel tied round you ? It'd totally blow any feeling of realism I
had, even if it wasn't obvious to the crowds. I know that its not possible
to be *totally* authentic, but plastic armour ? That's stretching it too far
(at least for me; like I said, I'm not SCA ...)
The second point is that, if it's not hidden, and you make it look like
plate or some such, its going to be *awful*. OK, it might look ok; it's
going to sound stupid when its hit, and its not going to dent authentically,
rust, or do any of the normal nice things metals do ...
Just my thoughts. I'm still having trouble with the idea of people
reenacting or even just fighting in plastic armour. Heh.
Ben
--
______________________________________________________________________________
Ben Davis,
MRC Protein Function and Design,
Cambridge, UK
______________________________________________________________________________
"They can make me do it, but they can't make me do it with dignity."
david director friedman
Ben Davis asks about why we need armor, writing (among other things)
about his group:
"Everyone else just wears thick gloves, and we have very very few
injuries; everyone trains, passes a safety test to pull the blows
while still looking good (I think "lethal character" is the phrase
...), and noone gets hurt (well, no-one gets hurt much; injuries are
few and far between tho').
My gut feeling about wearing armour is that people are going to get
sloppy, and not pull their blows well; if you know your opponent is
unarmoured, you make sure that you don't land a hard one, 'cause it'd
be unfair."
It is unclear to me whether your group is doing fighting as a
performance or as a sport, but it sounds as though it is the former.
If so, that is part of the explanation of the difference. SCA
fighting is a sport; the fighting is entirely unchoreographed and
both fighters are trying to win.
You take it for granted that fighters are supposed to pull their
blows. We take it for granted that, although fighters do not usually
hit as hard as they possibly can, they do not in general pull blows.
The result, I think, is that our fighting is less authentic in one
dimension (rattan swords instead of iron or steel swords) but more
authentic in another (full force, both fighters trying to win). The
combination of real armor and fake swords makes possible something
more like real fighting than I, at least, would be willing to try
with real swords.
Ben also writes, about plastic armor:
"how can you feel authentic with half a plastic barrel tied round you
?"
I agree with you, and made that point earlier in a related thread.
Even if nobody else knows your armor is plastic, you know, and that
reduces the feeling of "this is all real" for you. In my opinion,
decisions that only effect the game for you should be made by you, so
I am not in favor of rules against plastic, but I do think this is
one good reason for people not to use plastic if they have other
reasonable alternatives. But that seems to be a minority opinion.
David/Cariadoc
Michael A. Chance
>I'm not SCA, so maybe I need smthg explaining in words of one syllable, but
>why do you lot fight in armour ? We (dark ages reenactment; metal weapons,
>3mm edges) almost never wear armour; the only people who wear any sort of
>body armour as such are normans with mail hauberks. Everyone else just wears
>thick gloves, and we have very very few injuries; everyone trains, passes a
>safety test to pull the blows while still looking good (I think "lethal
>character" is the phrase ...), and noone gets hurt (well, no-one gets hurt
>much; injuries are few and far between tho').
>My gut feeling about wearing armour is that people are going to get sloppy,
>and not pull their blows well; if you know your opponent is unarmoured, you
>make sure that you don't land a hard one, 'cause it'd be unfair. If they're
>armoured, that care might not be there.
The reason that we fight in armor is because we *dont'* pull the
blows. SCA fighting is a full contact martial art/sport. While most
of us rarely (if ever) hit as hard as we possibly can, getting hit
with a rattan mock sword with anything close to the amount of force
needed to negate the protective features of armor is a bit like getting
hit with a baseball bat (or with a cricket bat, edge on) while swinging
for a line drive.
I've fought a couple of times with a "live-steel" Viking Age group in
Germany, and they were very careful to point out that the matches were
"quasi" choreographed, meaning that there were a very limited number
of valid targets and a limited range of blows that you could use. You
always knew that a blow was only going to come from one of a half
dozen possible directions. SCA combat is completely un-choreographed
(with the possible exception of certain matches at demos, done for
purely for show), and, with a few exceptions, blows can come from
almost any direction, and hit anywhere within the legal target area
(head, torso, legs above the knees, arms above the wrists, including
the neck, groin and elbows). And all at "full force".
Generally, if you are aware that your opponent has a significant
portion of the area where armor isn't mandatory unarmored, you tend to
throw shots a bit lighter at those areas. But, if you are the person
who has chosen to leave those areas unarmored, you do so with the full
knowledge that you are very likely to get hit on those areas with the
same amount of force as on armored parts.
Mikjal Annarbjorn
--
Michael A. Chance St. Louis, Missouri, USA "At play in the fields
Work: mc3...@sw1stc.sbc.com of St. Vidicon"
Play: mch...@crl.com
D. Hodges
: Ben Davis asks about why we need armor, writing (among other things)
: about his group:
I'm also in the NFPS (same group!)
: My gut feeling about wearing armour is that people are going to get
: sloppy, and not pull their blows well; if you know your opponent is
: unarmoured, you make sure that you don't land a hard one, 'cause it'd
: be unfair."
: It is unclear to me whether your group is doing fighting as a
: performance or as a sport, but it sounds as though it is the former.
: If so, that is part of the explanation of the difference. SCA
: fighting is a sport; the fighting is entirely unchoreographed and
: both fighters are trying to win.
The difference between the two organisations is that we are trying to
look and sound as authentic as possible for film work and public events.
It's part sport, part entertainment/education.
Some of the battles are choreographed (it would be very silly if the
Normans lost at Hastings), but a lot is entirely combative including
an ongoing competition for the best fighter in the society.
: You take it for granted that fighters are supposed to pull their
: blows. We take it for granted that, although fighters do not usually
: hit as hard as they possibly can, they do not in general pull blows.
: The result, I think, is that our fighting is less authentic in one
: dimension (rattan swords instead of iron or steel swords) but more
: authentic in another (full force, both fighters trying to win). The
: combination of real armor and fake swords makes possible something
: more like real fighting than I, at least, would be willing to try
: with real swords.
We also have clearly defined 'kill zones'. The head and neck are entirely
no go areas, the groin, inner and lower legs and forearms. The aim is to
look as if you're going to slaughter your opponent, but not actually hurt
them - qiute difficult to perfect but it looks excellent when you get a
couple of very experienced fighters laying into each other.
: Ben also writes, about plastic armor:
: "how can you feel authentic with half a plastic barrel tied round you
: ?"
: I agree with you, and made that point earlier in a related thread.
: Even if nobody else knows your armor is plastic, you know, and that
: reduces the feeling of "this is all real" for you. In my opinion,
: decisions that only effect the game for you should be made by you, so
: I am not in favor of rules against plastic, but I do think this is
: one good reason for people not to use plastic if they have other
: reasonable alternatives. But that seems to be a minority opinion.
: David/Cariadoc
Debbie
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Debbie Hodges dh...@cus.cam.ac.uk Fax 01223 217838
Rheumatology Research Unit, Addenbrookes Hospital, Hills Road, Cambridge, UK.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I never could get the hang of Thursdays (A.Dent).
Mike Lacy
C. Kevin Kellogg
: Plastic armour is Vegan Cuir-boulli! Hands off!
I find this amusing. a few years back, I had a retainer,
a beautiful, vivacious, enthusiastic, atheletic young lady who
was decidedly to the left on the standard one-dimensional political
scale of me. She wanted Politically Correct armor. She was
originally only willing to compromise on the hat, as she was going to
borrow an old bucket of mine, that was already well on it's way to
being a decade old. Finding PC materials turned out to be difficult.
Metal was not allowed (stripmining), leather was out(not vegan),
plastic was no good (petroleum product), synthetic fibers or natural/
synthetic blends couldn't be used (petrol, again), imported fabrics
out (slave labor), foam padding not (petrol). I couldn't do it.
I could not find material to meet the definitions of rigid material
that fit these restrictions. Finally, her desire to stand in Drafn's
shieldwall overcame her political convictions, and I got her on the
field in a mix of leather, plastic, and metal.
My question; can it be done? Can minimal legal female armor
made under these restrictions?
Avenel Kellough
TRISTAN CLAIR DE LUNE/KEN MONDSCHEIN
And whatever happened to her...? Did she get sick of us? The Society
is distinctly un-PC... not *sexist*, mind you, but not Politically Correct.
For instance, women in the Real World *hate* it when I open doors for them,
pull chairs out, take their jackets, etc...
Since just about everything we have today is a product of enviormnment-
raping or exploitive technology, I would guess that this would be hard, hard,
hard. A possible source of leather would be animals that were culled out of
overpopulated herds by Forest Rangers or hit by cars. You can't make your own
plastic, but you could get some antique bar stock or pig iron, smelt it
down, and do things the *really* old-fashioned way. (When you think about it,
if you did something 100% authentically, it would automatically be PC because
the Medievals hadn't developed "bad" technology yet, though they were also
a patricarchal society).
There is always fabric made domestically, which can be quilted into
a gambeson. There are also the fabrics and stuff made by Chilean peasants and
sold in head shops and college campuses.
As for plastic, just remind her that petroleum is a fact of modern
life, unless she wants to ride her bike to Pennsic :)
Of course, all of this adds $$$, and one begins to wonder if all this
PC stuff is worth it...
Tristan, the PC-challenged.
Bill McNutt
> My question; can it be done? Can minimal legal female armor
>made under these restrictions?
Well, lessee...
I think I could do a brigatine using wooden plates. It would be expensive,
cause you'd need a good hardwood that wouldn't split when hit with a stick.
william thomas powers
>(When you think about it,
>if you did something 100% authentically, it would automatically be PC because
>the Medievals hadn't developed "bad" technology yet, though they were also
>a patricarchal society).
I, wilelm, beg to differ, please research when controls on iron making
were put inplace in England due to problems with de-forestation, the
romans left such extensive slag piles from their iron refining that they were
"recycled" during WWII as a source for iron. I believe that the native
americans who mixed mercury with crushed ore with their feet to extract gold
and silver for the spanish might differ as well. And wasn't it Birenguccio (SP)
in Pirotechnica that suggested being really nice to your brass founders since
they die so young....
I think that any technology that leaves vast amounts of their waste products
around for over 1000 years might be considered a bit un-nice. I don't think
that the technologies were necessarily better; just in general the scale
was smaller; so less harm was done. Note the same type of agriculture
that we are trying to eradicate, slash and burn, in the rain forests
was a common method used by native americans on the eastern section
of America--who are often held up as a role model of eco consciousness
wilelm, who tries out as many period technologies as possible--and hopes
his Dr never finds out, (coal smoke, wood-bone-stone-metal-horn dust, zinc
fumes, take precautions NOW or be ready to give up the fun ones later!)
Dorothy J Heydt
In article <3leutk$7...@gondor.sdsu.edu>,
C. Kevin Kellogg <kel...@ucssun1.sdsu.edu> wrote:
[Amusing account of attempt PC armor deleted.]
> My question; can it be done? Can minimal legal female armor
>made under these restrictions?
If you also throw in cruelty to animals (commercial
sheep-shearing), I have to wonder what you wore in the way of
clothes the *rest* of the week...
--Hal Ravn
(Hal Heydt)
craig thomson
: I find this amusing. a few years back, I had a retainer,
: a beautiful, vivacious, enthusiastic, atheletic young lady who
: was decidedly to the left on the standard one-dimensional political
: scale of me. She wanted Politically Correct armor.
[deletia]
: My question; can it be done? Can minimal legal female armor
: made under these restrictions?
: Avenel Kellough
Try this one out on anyone of similar convictions: The use of
SALVAGED plastic does not affect the demand curve of primary materials
and resources. The same goes for any salvaged material. In fact the
very action of re-using these materials to build armor saves them from
the landfill!
My source of plastic will not increase its consumption of barrels just
because I save a few (or even all of them) from the dump. By the
sounds of it, your retainer wouldn't even be able to process the
materials into armor due to the energy sources put into it!
Steaphan MacTir
Tom Courtney
In article <3leutk$7...@gondor.sdsu.edu>, kel...@ucssun1.sdsu.edu (C.
Kevin Kellogg) wrote:
> Mike Lacy (lhp...@reading.ac.uk) wrote:
> : Plastic armour is Vegan Cuir-boulli! Hands off!
[ Lots of comments on the use of a lot of not PC materials we typically
use for armor... ]
>
> My question; can it be done? Can minimal legal female armor
> made under these restrictions?
I think you can do it. Make lamellar, but with wooden plates instead of
boiled leather. I hope she's strong ... Also, you probably want to figure
out how to lacquer the plates so they don't splinter. I've only seen one
example of this attempted by an SCA fighter, and it wasn't pretty. He
looked like a fighting hogshead.
Tom Courtney
aka Vissevald Selkirksson
Ed Walker
Of course I would need to have yon devil machine protected from the
slings and arrows of outrageous fortune hunters (my appologies to The Bard)
Hey it was there, I had to do it...
Prospero Corso
Itinerant barkeep and novice buckler of swashes
Kingdom of Atlantia, Argent Company
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ed Walker | WALKER VISIONS
aka Whitey | PO Box 98
whi...@access.digex.net | Upper Marlboro, MD 20773
Conrad Claus
> In article <3leutk$7...@gondor.sdsu.edu> kel...@ucssun1.sdsu.edu (C. Kevin Kellogg) writes:
> > My question; can it be done? Can minimal legal female armor
> >made under these restrictions?
>
> Well, lessee...
>
> I think I could do a brigatine using wooden plates. It would be expensive,
> cause you'd need a good hardwood that wouldn't split when hit with a stick.
With what kind of hardwood? (The better stuff in gleaned from shrinking
tropical forests - sorta un-PC)
What would fasten the plates to the backing? (Cotton, at least the sort
we use for things like string, is produced by foreign "slave labor" as well)
Along those same lines, what would the backing be made from to avoid
these problems?
The (mostly subsidized) cotton we grow in the US is not generally
used in making fabric.
I have always figured that if someone gets too PC in their
clothing/eating habits they are going to pontificate themselves out of
existence (which is fine for me, means more for the meateaters :->)
Conrad
"And gentlemen in England now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accur's they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day."
David Low
A while ago there was a discussion on the use of leather in period armour
and I described some books I had read that proved leather was used. I
recieved a request for the bib details of these books and I have lost the
address of that good gentle, so I will post it here.
"The Anglo-Saxon Weapon Names" May Lansfield Keller,
Swets & Zeitlinger N.V., Amsterdam, 1967
"The Sword in Anlgo-Saxon England" H. R. Ellis Davidson
Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1962
"The Battle of Maladon, AD991" edited by Donald Scragg
Blackwell Press, Oxford, 1991
ISBN 0-631-15987-8
"Economy, Society and Warfare among the Britons and Saxons" Leslie Alcock
University of Wales Press, Cardiff, 1987
ISBN 0-7083-0963-1
"Early Celtic Art in North Britain, volume 1 & 2" Morna MacGregor
Leicester University Press, 1976
While looking through the library to get the details I found a number of
books which may be of use to those interested in Anglo-Saxon culture and
those related, in the same period, but not necessarily in only armour.
"The Archaeology of Late Celtic Britain and Ireland c400-1200 AD"
Lloyd Laing, Methuen & Co. Ltd., London, 1975
ISBN 0-416-65970-5
"Roman Gaul and Germany" Anthony King, University of California Press,
Berkeley, California, 1990
ISBN 0-520-06989-7
"Scandinavian Archaeology" Haakon Shetelig & Hjalmar Falk
Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1937
"The Poetic Edda in the Light of Archeaology" Birgir Norman
AMS Press, New York, 1982
ISBN 0-404-60024-7
In chasing down the use of leather in pre Norman Europe, basically what
classifies as Dark Ages, I got onto two paths, Celtic and Viking. That
should be obvious from the above titles. The next book hasn't been
listed with the previous ones because it is so good I wanted draw as
much attention to it as possible. It's not the be all and end all of
Viking artifacts, but it is the best book I have ever seen for giving a
grounding in the Viking Arts and Sciences.
IF YOU MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN VIKING CULTURE, BUT HAVE NEVER GIVEN IT
MUCH THOUGHT, AND ARE ARTS AND CRAFTS TYPE PERSON,
***GET OR LOOK AT THIS BOOK***
"The Viking Dig" Richard Hall, The Bodley Head Ltd., London, 1984
ISBN 0-370-30802-6
If you like it, follow it up with -
"The Viking Age: The Early History, Manners and Customs of the Ancestors
of the English-Speaking Nations. volumes I and II" Paul b. duChaillu
John Murry Publishing, London, 1889
- and then the 'Edda' book listed previously and try the following
"Old Norse Court Poetry - The Drottkvaett Stanza" Roberta Frank
Cornell University Press, London, 1978
ISBN 0-8014-1060-6
"Scaldic Poetry" E.O.G. Turville-Petre, Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1976
ISBN 0-19-812517-8
There are many books on the 'Sutton Hoo' excavations (search by title)
which give more pictures. Unfortunately there are few pictures from the
time and so you need to survey what the Vikings wrote at the time to gain
a good understanding of what they wore and used and how they made them.
But that is for the serious punters.
(Next to final bit) A good example of using writen accounts from the
period as an alternative to manuscript pictures and excavations is the
accounts of Julius Ceaser of his Gallic Campaign. Mostly it's of little
value for recreationists, but there are passages that describe the Gauls
he fought, what they wore, what the fought with and in, and how they
behaved. For those interested in pursueing this further ...
"Commentarii rerum in Gallia gestarum VII / A. Hirti Commentarius VIII:
edited by T. Rice Holmes" Caesar, Caius Julius
Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1914
"Caesar's Gallic War, Books I and II" edited by G.C. Harrison, M.A. and
T.W. Haddon, M.A., Edward Arnold Press, London, 1912
"Caesar's Gallic War, Books III to V" edited by M.T. Tathan, M.A.,
Edward Arnold Press, London, 1913
"Caesar's Gallic War, Books VI and VII" edited by M.T. Tathan, M.A.,
Edward Arnold Press, London, 1913
(FINAL BIT - Huzzah!) As a last note, I don't know how many advanced
poets share this bridge, but following is a book I chanced upon and
consider a must have for anyone like me.
"An Introduction to Old Provencal Versification" Frank M. Chambers
American Philosophical Society, Independance Square, Philadelphia, 1985
ISBN 0-87169-167-1
Before I close, and while on my favourite topic, does anyone out there
have useful references for Celtic, Byzantine, Muslim (period) and Arabic
poetry and poetic forms? They would be much appreciated.
Tschuess
___ _ ___ + David Low - s11...@student.uq.oz.au
__\__~ \__/__ | SCA: Emrick von Adlershorst (Sable, a point pointed,
---\ /--- | Argent, in chief an eagle displayed sinister, Or)
"/_\" |
+ "Des dedos mis amigos, everything's cool" - PWEI
IVA...@delphi.com
Quoting v081lu33 from a message in rec.org.sca
>*really* old-fashioned way. (When you think about it, if you did
>something 100% authentically, it would automatically be PC because the
>Medievals hadn't developed "bad" technology yet, though they were also
Well, they didn't KNOW it was bad technology, but the charcoal burners who
made medieval smelting techniques possible probably died very early from the
effects of their craft.... The making of charcoal was VERY polluting.
It wasn't so much the lack of bad technology, it was the relative rarity of
technology, so the pollution produced was not more than the environment
could cope with.
Carolyn Boselli Host of Custom Forum 35 SCAdians on Delphi
If you're not new at something, you're not growing.
Bugs come in through open Windows.
Rainbow V 1.14.1 for Delphi - Registered
fnkl...@acfcluster.nyu.edu
made of wooden slats lashed together.
I have read that some northern mongolian armour was fairly identical but have
never seen such. (Stone, "Glossary")
Anyhow, wood armour is majorly non-PC.
Deforestation, and extinction of species and all that, you know.
(actually, how would such a PC chick ever bear to pick up a stick of rattan?)
Peace,
Nahum
yIn article <vis-310395...@slip-3-10.shore.net>, v...@shore.net (Tom
Courtney) writes:
>Hi folks,
>
>In article <3leutk$7...@gondor.sdsu.edu>, kel...@ucssun1.sdsu.edu (C.
>Kevin Kellogg) wrote:
>
>> Mike Lacy (lhp...@reading.ac.uk) wrote:
>> : Plastic armour is Vegan Cuir-boulli! Hands off!
>
>[ Lots of comments on the use of a lot of not PC materials we typically
>use for armor... ]
>
>>
>> My question; can it be done? Can minimal legal female armor
>> made under these restrictions?
>
Specter
>Check out American Indian Armour -
>made of wooden slats lashed together.
>I have read that some northern mongolian armour was fairly identical but have
>never seen such. (Stone, "Glossary")
Umm... think the American Indians also used bone to make armor as well.
Been a while since that one history class tho....
>Anyhow, wood armour is majorly non-PC.
>Deforestation, and extinction of species and all that, you know.
>(actually, how would such a PC chick ever bear to pick up a stick of rattan?)
With an all-natural glove??
Rolland Steveneson
---
"Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum."
pri...@vaxsar.vassar.edu
Emrick von Adlershorst (s11...@student.uq.edu.au) posted a long list of books
he has found useful, including the following:
> "The Viking Age: The Early History, Manners and Customs of the Ancestors
> of the English-Speaking Nations. volumes I and II" Paul b. duChaillu
> John Murry Publishing, London, 1889
The quotations from sagas, laws, etc., in this book can be interesting and
useful, as are some of the line drawings. But if you examine this book, don't
bother to read the opinions of the author expressed in the text. It's
astonishingly riddled with errors. As you can guess by the publication date,
it's a major source of Victorian Age attitudes toward the Vikings and their
relatives.
*****************************************************************************
Carolyn Priest-Dorman Thora Sharptooth
Poughkeepsie, NY Frosted Hills ("where's that?")
pri...@vassar.edu East Kingdom
Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or
*****************************************************************************
Tracy Miller
On Thu, 30 Mar 1995, Bill McNutt wrote:
> Well, lessee...
>
> I think I could do a brigatine using wooden plates. It would be expensive,
> cause you'd need a good hardwood that wouldn't split when hit with a stick.
>
But cutting down trees is WAY not PC. What about adobe? (Yes, I know
that's new world.) Ceramic? ;)
Tracy
Bill McNutt
>On Thu, 30 Mar 1995, Bill McNutt wrote:
=>> Well, lessee...
=>>
=>> I think I could do a brigatine using wooden plates. It would be
=expensive, >> cause you'd need a good hardwood that wouldn't split when hit
=with a stick.>>
=>But cutting down trees is WAY not PC. What about adobe? (Yes, I know
=>that's new world.) Ceramic? ;)
No, no. It depends on the tree. Cutting down rainforest trees is WAY un-pc,
cutting down old-growth forests is not-pc. Cutting down renewable "farm"
trees is acceptable.
Of course, that depends on who you are talking to.
Victoria Gilliam
about clay? It's totally PC (although it may not hold up to a good solid
blow...or even a light one). ;}
Ellsbeth Lachlanina MacLabruinn
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errs.
Brain fried -- core dumped.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Vycke' Gilliam z009...@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
csig...@gmail.com
Zebee Johnstone
> The SCA doesn't pull blows and without armor, the Rattan swords we use would shatter bone.
Heaps of people wear minimum armour and are not broken. If you are
hitting hard enough with the bouncy rattan to break bones you are
hitting too hard and your card should be pulled.
If I hit you a "good" blow on your unarmoured ribs with a rattan
sword you should yelp but not have a rib broken.
If I hit you that hard on the ribs with a 2mm edge steel sword I
expect you will be breathing funny for weeks.
Silfren
cwater...@gmail.com
> To say that plastic armor should be illegal because
> it gives the wearer an unfair advantage over those
> who do the "correct" thing and wear steel plate armor,
> is in my opinion, very late-period biased.
>
> It is true that the SCA spans a good deal of time,
> during which many different styles of armor were used, from
> it is impossible to fight with no armor. Wearing plastic
> simulate NO armor in a game that requires it. The "unfair"
> advantage this gives the wearer is the same advantage
> an early warrior wearing nothing but a skull cap would have.
> The difference would be that the wearer of no armor would
> be more likely to die from a good blow, but since we are
> supposed to be taking all good blows anyway, it really
> isn't worth arguing.
>
> The only unfair thing about it is that we throw several dozen
> different styles of armor, weapons, and people into the same battle
> situation, but this too, is a reflection of what happened in the past.
> I'm sure there were a few peasants who thought it very unfair that
> the rich folks had nice armor to protect them when they fought.
> I'm also sure that different armies had thoughts about unfairness
> as they encountered each other for the first time, before they
> had developed methods for working against the other's different
> armors.
>
> Bronach Nalbrojtr
Ok I understand your point of view but I fight with nearly no armour on I wear a leather Belly band, Elbow and Knee cops, Helmet, gorget, and I am a great weapons fighter so arrows really hurt. The point to my response is I have fought against plastic wearers who haven't taken shots just like a plate user so the answer is hit harder. There is absolutely no reason to make an armour form which makes people money as well as create new fighters to come out for battle to be illegal. Also since everyones armour is registered as Chain-mail not as plate so if you have the nice shinny ICE armour good for you money bags some people in the real world can only afford plastic. This isn't LARP; armour level doesn't give you more HP so what you wear is dictated by what you can afford; so go out and have fun.
Todd Rich
person you are replying to is even alive, much less reading a nearly dead
newsgroup.
Torin
Eric
--
--
Eric
Dorothy J Heydt
newsletters. Pity.
--
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West Vallejo, California
PRO DEO ET REGE djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
synthi...@yahoo.com
mrrozi...@gmail.com
Basil
replying, check the dates of the previous posts in the thread, and
decide if you are willing to respond to Very Old Posts (TM).
For instance the post you are replying to is more than 15 months old,
and that was part of a 4-post "sub-thread" based on a post to a thread
that was already, at that time, 20 *years* old.
Now, if you are will to "razz the thread," fine. But do be aware you
are doing so, please. :-)
Oh, and I'm not a fighter, so I don't know nothin' 'bout armor. ;-)
