Translation, please?
Stormcrow
a pic of the arms, but unfortunately, it's in Spanish. I read a little bit of
Spanish, but not enough to figure out what is being said in this description.
Can anyone translate, or, tell me a place on the web where I can go to
translate it myself? Thank you. Tino (Antonio Garcia de Cordoba)
"En Galicia, Asturias y Burgos: En campo de plata una garza de sable con el
pecho rajado. Bordura de gules con el lema en letras de oro: "De Garcia arriba
nadie diga".
Como ya se ha dicho otros linajes de Garcia traen diferentes armas."
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gun...@my-deja.com
> I am trying to document the Garcia coat of arms.
Note that there is not "the Garcia coat of arms" but rather "one of a
vast multitude of various Garcia lineages which have coats of arms".
Just because one Garcia family uses the arms doesn't mean that all do,
nor that a modern day person named Garcia may be entitled to these arms.
> Can anyone translate, or, tell me a place on the web where I can go to
> translate it myself? Thank you. Tino (Antonio Garcia de Cordoba)
> "En Galicia, Asturias y Burgos: En campo de plata una garza de sable
> con el pecho rajado. Bordura de gules con el lema en letras de
> oro: "De Garcia arriba nadie diga". Como ya se ha dicho otros linajes
> de Garcia traen diferentes armas."
Of course, the problem in reading this is that it's a hash of Spanish
and herald-ese.
Here's an attempt at it that should be pretty close:
In Galicia, Asturias and Burgos: Argent, a heron sable with the breast
fissured (wounded?), and a bordure, gules with this motto in letters of
gold: "Of Garcia nothing higher is said". Other Garcia lineages may
carry different arms.
This describes a silver or white background with a red border. On the
white in the center is a black heron, and I think the breast is
wounded, showing drops of blood. On the border in gold is a motto.
I'm not 100% on what exactly is going on with the heron's breast, and
I"m not 100% sure on the motto. This should be enough to give you an
idea.
::GUNNORA::
So living in South Texas is good for something after all ;-)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Dave and Megan Anhorn
Jeff Zeitlin
Given your description and the motto, I wonder if maybe instead
of a heron, it shouldn't perhaps be instead blazoned as "a
pelican vulning herself".
--
Yosef ben Lazar
jzei...@cyburban.com
Stormcrow
of a heron, it shouldn't perhaps be instead blazoned as "a
pelican vulning herself".
>>
Well, I've got a JPG copy of the arms, and it IS a heron, but what is
"vulning"? I don't see any sign of a wound, but I can see the outline of the
wing. Maybe that's what it's talking about?
Tino
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Stormcrow
http://babelfish.altavista.com/translate.dyn
>>
I went to this site. The translation was kind of funny, which is to be
expected for a computer translation, but it did verify one thing. The heron's
breast isn't wounded. It's "cracked".
"In Galicia, Asturias and Towns: In silver field a heron of saber with the
cracked chest. Bordura of gules with the motto in gold letters: " Of Garcia it
arrives nobody says ". As it has been said already other lineages of Garcia
bring different arms."
I'm assuming that it's talking about the outline of the wing I mentioned in
another post.
Thanks, everyone, for the help. I really appreciate it.
Tino
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Sean Rodden
of need. This is considered the epitomy of the virtue of self-sacrifice.
Both the pelican and the heron are water birds and with the use of the
word "cracked" the symbology appears similar. It may be that in medieval
times the two were interchangable? At least in a heralic sense?
Cheers,
Sean
--
Sean Rodden KSC DNRC LIVR
Warrior, Poet, Webmaster
Cornet at-large
http://www.rodden.net
mariannep
Gunnora the brave and many talented put her Spanish skills to the test
and came up with...
> In Galicia, Asturias and Burgos: Argent, a heron sable with the breast
> fissured (wounded?), and a bordure, gules with this motto in letters
of
> gold: "Of Garcia nothing higher is said". Other Garcia lineages may
> carry different arms.
>
> This describes a silver or white background with a red border. On the
> white in the center is a black heron, and I think the breast is
> wounded, showing drops of blood. On the border in gold is a motto.
As a native speaker from Spain (schooled and living there) I totally
support this tranlation. It's good, though I have the same doubts as
Gunnora - the wording is somewhat ambiguous/obscure in 2 parts:
> I'm not 100% on what exactly is going on with the heron's breast,
rajado is indeed fissured and I would interpret it as longitudinal wound
made by a knife or other weapon (animal or human)
> I"m not 100% sure on the motto. This should be enough to give you an
> idea.
The motto is bizarre. "De Garcia arriba nadie diga". would literally be
"From Garcia up (or upwards) nobody say [anything/...]". I wonder if the
"upwards" could refer to the present García's ancestors. But I think the
only way you could come up with a certain, true translation is to look
for similar expressions that are clearer -this might prove difficult.
Could you give the URL to the webpage that gave you this? Seeing it
might help.
Also, as Gunnora pointed out (and the text states clearly), this is just
_one_ Garcia coat-of-arms. I am no expert in heraldry but from my
readings not only there will be many Garcia arms but many will be too
modern for SCA documentation (toying with medieval/noble trappings was
_not_ restricted to Victorian England).
Garcia was a name since the early middle ages and one which was used as
a patronymic as well; and so it would have been a rather common surname
by the time that naming practices settled on family names. I would check
with people knowledgeable of your period's Iberian heraldry before
getting too attached to these arms.
Dios mantenga,
your servant Leonor Martin
Marianne Perdomo
--
E-mail: mari...@nono.net
Substituir nono por castillo para esribir.
Substitute castillo for nono to e-mail
Stormcrow
made by a knife or other weapon (animal or human)>>
If you want, I can UL the JPG in binary format. I can't see any sign of a
"wound", per se. But you can see the outline of the left wing. Maybe that's
what it's talking about?
<<Could you give the URL to the webpage that gave you this? Seeing it
might help.>>
I can't seem to find the URL anywhere. I didn't save the page. I'll see if I
can find it and post it here.
Tino
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mariannep
strm...@aol.comNOSPAM (Stormcrow) wrote:
Hi again!
Since you no longer have the URL I tried a search on Altavista with the
beginning words "campo de plata una garza de sable con el pecho rajado".
I got back quite a few pages that show some variations. An overview:
* http://www.ciudadfutura.net/apellidos/origen/GARCIA.htm
has literally your text but the picture is broken.
http://tiempolibre.ciudadfutura.com/apellidos/origen/GARCIA.htm
seems to be the same page but the picture's there. Is that the picture
you have?
It's true you can see no fissure but the style of this particular
picture seems to me quite modern: the letters are modern capital letters
and it has the look of a modren badge embroidered by machine for use of
many people - the design has probably been simplified.
* http://encina.pntic.mec.es/~sfuent1/garcia.html
has 3 different arms:
- the first is one borne by the majority of the Castillian Garcias,
acording to the text and the one illustrated on top.
- the second one is almost the same as the one you quoted, except that
it doesn't mention Asturias and gives the motto as «De García nadie
diga» (Nobody speak of Garcia - speak badly, I assume)
- the third is from Segovia and translates as (pardon my defficient
heraldese):
Azure, a tower argent of 5 battlements (crenellated) over 3 steps
(floors?), with a double door, one side of which is open, and on the
battlements a star of the same metal (argent); On each side of the tower
a lion rampant argent.
* http://www.ven.net/~jonaga/Garcia.htm
mentions the one you cited, with the same motto, and talks about the
general history of the last name.
* http://epasa1.epasa.com/apellidos/garcia.html
seems to be from some sort of encyclopedia (which could mean very
little) and has a variation on the arms you cited:
"En campo de plata, una garza de sable, con el pecho rajado y
sangrienta, y las alas abiertas como para remontar el vuelo; bordura de
azur, con ocho souteres de oro. Timbre: Tres plumas de avestruz."
That is (again, pardon my lack of blazoning grammar":
Argent, a heron sable, with the breast fissured and bloodied, and the
wings open as if to fly away; bordure of azure with 8 souteres (?) or.
Crest: 3 ostrich plumes.
Furthering the search a bit:
* http://members.xoom.com/chema/apel_g.htm
has many variations, let me know which regions you're interested in and
I will translate roughly.
** http://personales.com/espana/albacete/heraldica/heral-g2.htm
has several pictures of various Garcia arms, including on very similar
to the one in the first site above but showing the bloodied breast.
>
> If you want, I can UL the JPG in binary format. I can't see any sign
of a
> "wound", per se. But you can see the outline of the left wing. Maybe
that's
> what it's talking about?
_If_ the picture you have is different from the above ones, could you
place it on a webpage of yours or something? Or, if you're in the
Medieval Spain list at egroups.com (previously onelist.com) you could
put in the shared files directory? If none of this is possible perhaps
you can e-mail me the file. But the more people that can see it and form
an opinion the better, I think.
I hope this helps!
Marianne | Leonor
Stormcrow
Marianne | Leonor
>>
Wow! You have NO idea how much this helps! I appreciate the help, m'lady.
I'll look over the websites and let you know which pic is close to what I
found. I did post the pic on this NG but I'm not sure if anyone saw it or not.
Thanks again!
Tino
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Stormcrow
seems to be the same page but the picture's there. Is that the picture
you have?
It's true you can see no fissure but the style of this particular
picture seems to me quite modern: the letters are modern capital letters
and it has the look of a modren badge embroidered by machine for use of
many people - the design has probably been simplified. >>
YES!! That's the website that I had found. I agree that it looks rather
modern, but I wasn't able to find anything else.
<< - the third is from Segovia and translates as (pardon my defficient
heraldese):
Azure, a tower argent of 5 battlements (crenellated) over 3 steps
(floors?), with a double door, one side of which is open, and on the
battlements a star of the same metal (argent); On each side of the tower
a lion rampant argent.
>>
I went to this webpage, but couldn't find the picture that this describes.
Were you able to see it?
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mariannep
strm...@aol.comNOSPAM (Stormcrow) wrote:
> << - the third is from Segovia and translates as (pardon my defficient
> heraldese):
> Azure, a tower argent of 5 battlements (crenellated) over 3 steps
> (floors?), with a double door, one side of which is open, and on the
> battlements a star of the same metal (argent); On each side of the
tower
> a lion rampant argent.
> >>
>
> I went to this webpage, but couldn't find the picture that this
describes.
> Were you able to see it?
Hi again, Tino!
There was no picture for it - which is why I translated it.
At the last site I mentioned there were a few pictures but none of that
one. But on reviewing it I noticed something interesting... the heron is
in a majority of the arms and also in nearby ones like Garçon / Garzon.
This is because the animal in Spanish is called garza so it's a form of
canting. Do you know about canting? I think it was very popular during
the Renaissance. Perhaps someone could tell us whenabouts the practice
started? That would give an idea of how old the design could be.
The site was:
** http://personales.com/espana/albacete/heraldica/heral-g2.htm
Are you intending to adopt a form of the Garcia arms or are you
documenting this for some other project? I'm getting curious by now...
: )
Till later!
Marianne
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
[...]
>At the last site I mentioned there were a few pictures but none of that
>one. But on reviewing it I noticed something interesting... the heron is
>in a majority of the arms and also in nearby ones like Garçon / Garzon.
>This is because the animal in Spanish is called garza so it's a form of
>canting. Do you know about canting? I think it was very popular during
>the Renaissance. Perhaps someone could tell us whenabouts the practice
>started? That would give an idea of how old the design could be.
Canting is very old: consider the arms of Castilla, 'Gules, a _castle_
or', and León, 'Argent, a _lion_ rampant purpure', quartered by
Alphonso the Wise in the 13th c. In England various Corbets bore
ravens ('corbies') in the 13th c.
Thus, canting doesn't really say much about the age of the arms.
Talan
Stormcrow
At the last site I mentioned there were a few pictures but none of that
one. But on reviewing it I noticed something interesting... the heron is
in a majority of the arms and also in nearby ones like Garçon / Garzon.
This is because the animal in Spanish is called garza so it's a form of
canting. Do you know about canting? I think it was very popular during
the Renaissance. Perhaps someone could tell us whenabouts the practice
started? That would give an idea of how old the design could be.>>
I found a pic that was slightly like the one described (castle, herons flying
above, etc.) but in some ways different. I'm not familiar with the term
"canting" but I read the post after yours that described it. It's interesting
that the names are so close to the spanish word for heron.
<<Are you intending to adopt a form of the Garcia arms or are you
documenting this for some other project? I'm getting curious by now...>>
I'm planning on adopting the arms, but I've heard that I'm going to have to
change them in some way. I want to put some form of crow on them. I've found
some arms for Garcia that doesn't have any heron's on it, so I might use that,
instead.
Remove NOSPAM.
Stormcrow
> heraldese):
> Azure, a tower argent of 5 battlements (crenellated) over 3 steps
> (floors?), with a double door, one side of which is open, and on the
> battlements a star of the same metal (argent); On each side of the
tower
> a lion rampant argent.
>>
Does anyone know if Garcia was a strictly Northern name, or was it used in the
south? My full name is Antonio Garcia de Cordoba, Cordoba being in Southern
Spain, which if I recall correctly, was predominantly Moorish. If necessary, I
can change the "de Cordoba" part to a more Northern city.
Tino
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Maggie Forest
>canting. Do you know about canting? I think it was very popular during
>the Renaissance. Perhaps someone could tell us whenabouts the practice
>started? That would give an idea of how old the design could be.>>
Don't know specifically about Spain, but in Scandinavia canting was
built right into the whole concept of heraldry from the beginning. and
when you think about it, it makes a lot of sense; if your arms are
supposed to identify you across a battle field, people have to either
know what your arms are, or be able to 'read' them to figure out who
you are. A bear holding a lightning flash? Ah, that'll be our Asbjorn.
A fish on blue? Ah, that'll be those German Fischers... which side are
they on again?
/mmy
Good communication is as stimulating as black coffee,
and just as hard to sleep after - Anne Morrow Lindbergh
Brian M. Scott
>Does anyone know if Garcia was a strictly Northern name, or was it used in the
>south?
I suspect that it was predominantly northern, since it is most likely
of Basque origin.
[...]
Talan
Stormcrow
I suspect that it was predominantly northern, since it is most likely
of Basque origin.
[...]
Talan
>>
That's what I thought. <sigh> Oh well, time to find another city! I hate
moving! hehehehe
Tino
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hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
: On 29 May 2000 21:09:52 GMT, strm...@aol.comNOSPAM (Stormcrow) wrote:
:>Does anyone know if Garcia was a strictly Northern name, or was it used in the
:>south?
: I suspect that it was predominantly northern, since it is most likely
: of Basque origin.
The various articles in "Antroponimia y Sociedad" (Spanish given names in
the 9-13th centuries) show <Garcia> as being used in every region covered
by the articles (Leon, Liebana, Cantabrico, Burgos,
Alava/Guipuzcoa/Vizcaya, Navarre, and Aragon) unfortunately my knowledge
of Spanish geography isn't good enough to translate that list into a
conclusion about distribution.
Tangwystyl
--
*********************************************************
Heather Rose Jones hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
**********************************************************
Brian M. Scott
>Brian M. Scott <sc...@math.csuohio.edu> wrote:
>: On 29 May 2000 21:09:52 GMT, strm...@aol.comNOSPAM (Stormcrow) wrote:
>:>Does anyone know if Garcia was a strictly Northern name, or was it used in the
>:>south?
>: I suspect that it was predominantly northern, since it is most likely
>: of Basque origin.
>The various articles in "Antroponimia y Sociedad" (Spanish given names in
>the 9-13th centuries) show <Garcia> as being used in every region covered
>by the articles (Leon, Liebana, Cantabrico, Burgos,
>Alava/Guipuzcoa/Vizcaya, Navarre, and Aragon) unfortunately my knowledge
>of Spanish geography isn't good enough to translate that list into a
>conclusion about distribution.
I believe that Cantabrico and Álava/Guipúzcoa/Vizcaya are along the
northern coast; Navarra is immediately to the east, just south of the
Pyrenees. Álava, Guipúzcoa, and Vizcaya are Basque country. Just
south of these are León, Burgos, and Aragon (from west to east). I
don't know about Liebana -- Marianne probably does -- but these all
appear to be in the north.
Talan
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
>On 29 May 2000 21:01:44 GMT, strm...@aol.comNOSPAM (Stormcrow) wrote:
>>canting. Do you know about canting? I think it was very popular during
>>the Renaissance. Perhaps someone could tell us whenabouts the practice
>>started? That would give an idea of how old the design could be.>>
>Don't know specifically about Spain, but in Scandinavia canting was
>built right into the whole concept of heraldry from the beginning. and
>when you think about it, it makes a lot of sense; if your arms are
>supposed to identify you across a battle field, people have to either
>know what your arms are, or be able to 'read' them to figure out who
>you are. A bear holding a lightning flash? Ah, that'll be our Asbjorn.
>A fish on blue? Ah, that'll be those German Fischers... which side are
>they on again?
Scandinavia was a special case, since in much of it heraldry preceded
the introduction of family names. I think that it was in the 1560s
that Erik XIV of Sweden ordered the nobility to take family names
based on charges in their arms. This same sort of 'reverse canting'
occurred elsewhere, but not nearly so often as in Scandinavia. Apart
from this high incidence of 'reverse canting', which was in any case a
relatively late phenomenon, I'm not aware of any sense in which
canting was more a part of Scandinavian heraldry than of any other.
From the 13th c. it figured in the armory of every region and social
class that used armory.
Talan
gun...@my-deja.com
> As a native speaker from Spain (schooled and living there) I totally
> support this tranlation. It's good, though I have the same doubts as
> Gunnora - the wording is somewhat ambiguous/obscure in 2 parts:
>
> > I'm not 100% on what exactly is going on with the heron's breast,
>
> wound made by a knife or other weapon (animal or human)
Perhaps "rajado" is unclear because it's one of those "special herald-
ese terms" for Spanish heraldry. I mean, look at the equivalent term
for "the pelican in her piety", which is "vulning". An English speaker
might have trouble figuring out that "vulning" means "wounding herself"
even if they caught the similarity with "wound" and "vulnerable".
It would be interesting to check out this term in a formal Spanish text
on heraldry, to see if it is indeed a specialized Spanish heraldry term.
Also, in reply to the comments about the pictures not showing a wound,
I'd think from the size of the graphics and fairly low resolution that
red droplets of blood on the black background either might not show up,
or perhaps may have been left off by way of simplifying the design a
bit -- a necessity if the graphics were being used for an embroidered
patch, as has been suggested.
An interesting discussion! And fun, since I don't much use my Spanish
except for what little conversations any South Texan might need, and
herald-ese is never a topic I've encountered in the normal course of
Spanish conversation.
::GUNNORA::
mariannep
gun...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > rajado is indeed fissured and I would interpret it as longitudinal
> > wound made by a knife or other weapon (animal or human)
>
> Perhaps "rajado" is unclear because it's one of those "special herald-
> ese terms" for Spanish heraldry. I mean, look at the equivalent term
> for "the pelican in her piety", which is "vulning". An English
<snip>
Well, I didn't have many hopes because "rajado" is a very common word.
But I checked anyway, in http://members.xoom.com/chema/herald7.htm
which is a modern Spanish heraldry site (I don't have any better sources
yet - sigh!) and there it was:
Rajado.- Dícese de la flor o del fruto que deja ver su interior.
meaning:
Rajado - said of the flower or fruit that lets its interior be seen.
It seems to be odd for a heron but still supports the meaning of a
wound, IMO.
>
> Also, in reply to the comments about the pictures not showing a wound,
> I'd think from the size of the graphics and fairly low resolution that
> red droplets of blood on the black background either might not show
up,
> or perhaps may have been left off by way of simplifying the design a
> bit -- a necessity if the graphics were being used for an embroidered
> patch, as has been suggested.
I think you're right on. On my second post I cited some other sources
including one that did show the wound. We agree (the original poster and
I, that is) that the one he had seen looks modern and probably
simplified.
See yourself and tell us your opinion:
http://tiempolibre.ciudadfutura.com/apellidos/origen/GARCIA.htm
has the non-wounded one
http://personales.com/espana/albacete/heraldica/garcia2.gif
is also terribly modern-looking but shows the wound
> An interesting discussion! And fun, since I don't much use my Spanish
> except for what little conversations any South Texan might need, and
> herald-ese is never a topic I've encountered in the normal course of
> Spanish conversation.
You did well! Can't see you talking much about herons and gules...
though... Maybe one day, if we get Spanish to be another of the official
languages of Drachenwald and do a court in it at one of the big wars...
;>
All the best!
Marianne | Leonor
--
E-mail: mari...@nono.net
Substituir nono por castillo para esribir.
Substitute castillo for nono to e-mail
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
: mariannep <mper...@my-deja.com> wrote:
:> As a native speaker from Spain (schooled and living there) I totally
:> support this tranlation. It's good, though I have the same doubts as
:> Gunnora - the wording is somewhat ambiguous/obscure in 2 parts:
:>
:> > I'm not 100% on what exactly is going on with the heron's breast,
:> rajado is indeed fissured and I would interpret it as longitudinal
:> wound made by a knife or other weapon (animal or human)
: Perhaps "rajado" is unclear because it's one of those "special herald-
: ese terms" for Spanish heraldry. I mean, look at the equivalent term
: for "the pelican in her piety", which is "vulning". An English speaker
: might have trouble figuring out that "vulning" means "wounding herself"
: even if they caught the similarity with "wound" and "vulnerable".
A good point -- in a 14th century Welsh heraldic treatise, the heraldic
position "displayed" (both wings spread) is described as "wedi'i holltu
a'i lledu" which, literally translated, means "after having been split and
spread". Not particularly obvious without a bit of context. Heraldic
language is like any jargon -- clear to the specialist in the field, but
not always transparent to outsiders.
mariannep
> >:>Does anyone know if Garcia was a strictly Northern name, or was it
> >:>used in the south?
>
> >: I suspect that it was predominantly northern, since it is most
> >: likely of Basque origin.
I don't care much about the matter, to be honest. But I have a book
saying that it's germanic (it's an article on Leonese names of the 10th
c. from a conference). Do you have a serious source suggesting that it's
basque or was it just a hypothesis?
I just want to know if I should take the article with more salt than
usual.
The Spanish heraldry site says that the oldest Garcia's known are those
of Leon and Galicia. A Garcia goberned Leon in 843.
> >The various articles in "Antroponimia y Sociedad" (Spanish given
names in
> >the 9-13th centuries) show <Garcia> as being used in every region
covered
> >by the articles (Leon, Liebana, Cantabrico, Burgos,
> >Alava/Guipuzcoa/Vizcaya, Navarre, and Aragon) unfortunately my
knowledge
> >of Spanish geography isn't good enough to translate that list into a
> >conclusion about distribution.
>
> I believe that Cantabrico and Álava/Guipúzcoa/Vizcaya are along the
> northern coast; Navarra is immediately to the east, just south of the
> Pyrenees. Álava, Guipúzcoa, and Vizcaya are Basque country. Just
> south of these are León, Burgos, and Aragon (from west to east). I
> don't know about Liebana -- Marianne probably does -- but these all
> appear to be in the north.
>
You're right, Talan - these are all in the North. Liebana is in
Santander, on the north coast between Asturias and the Basque country
(it's a very small place - I had to look it up to know the province).
But this need not mean that Garcia was restricted to the northern third
of the peninsula at all (period) times, especially since those are the
regions covered by the articles.
Tino seems to be interested in the late 13th - early 14th centuries. By
that time Leon had merged with Castille and had conquered much of the
south. Cordoba was conquered in 1236, Sevilla in 1248, Niebla in
1262,...
So I think it would be quite plausible to have his grandfather come from
say, Leon, to fight around and be granted some land and stay. By the
time Tino's grown he would feel as if he was indeed Cordoban but bear
the name Garcia. Does it seem far-fetched?
It does not mean much but the Spanish heraldry site also shows variants
for Andalusia, Extremadura (north of Andalusia, east of Portugal) and
Murcia, for example. Unfortunately it seems there aren't many resources
at the SCA names sites for that time, especially regional ones.
Anyway, got to go now! Let me know what you think!!
Marianne
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
>> >:>Does anyone know if Garcia was a strictly Northern name, or was it
>> >:>used in the south?
>> >: I suspect that it was predominantly northern, since it is most
>> >: likely of Basque origin.
>I don't care much about the matter, to be honest. But I have a book
>saying that it's germanic (it's an article on Leonese names of the 10th
>c. from a conference). Do you have a serious source suggesting that it's
>basque or was it just a hypothesis?
My main source, R.P. Gonzalo Díez Melcón, _Apellidos
Castellano-Leoneses_, says that the origin is unclear. He discusses
the problem briefly and concludes by inclining toward a Basque
derivation, from <(h)artz> 'bear'. In the discussion he mentions a
suggestion that by Floriano that the name is Germanic, from the themes
GART- and -WARS. The first of these is clearly just a variant of
GARD-, but the second is either badly distorted or unfamiliar to me,
and in any case the development to <García> would be unusual. At any
rate, Piel and Kremer don't mention the name in their
_Hispano-gotisches Namenbuch_, so they evidently didn't consider it
Germanic.
Michelena, expert on Basque, also took the view that the name was
probably from <(h)artz> 'bear'. Tibón says:
No procede, como se opinaba, del nombre vasco-ibérico
Arcea, ni de garzón, y tampoco es una derivación del
vasco <artza>, "oso", a través de un hipotético *<garsea>'.
El oso fué llamado metafóricamente <artza> porque puede
caminar sobre las patas posteriores, o sea porque se <eleva>.
<Artza> es 'peñascal' y la <g> antepuesta indica que el
peñascal es cimero, de <g>, 'alto'. En <gartzi-a> la vocal
<i> infija expresa que el peñascal aparece enhiesto, empinado.
Como los demás nombres vascos, García procede de un topónimo:
los primitivos García moraban cerca de un peñascal alto y
empinado.
This sounds a bit unlikely, and in any case Michelena is a more
authoritative source on Basque. Tibón does give the useful datum that
the name is first found in an Arab document of the 8th c. dating from
just after the Moorish conquest.
>I just want to know if I should take the article with more salt than
>usual.
>The Spanish heraldry site says that the oldest Garcia's known are those
>of Leon and Galicia. A Garcia goberned Leon in 843.
Which URL? The one I looked at gave only armory.
[...]
>But this need not mean that Garcia was restricted to the northern third
>of the peninsula at all (period) times, especially since those are the
>regions covered by the articles.
Agreed. In fact, since the originally patronymic surname <García> is
(I believe) quite common throughout Spain, it's likely that use of the
forename spread to the south reasonably early.
>Tino seems to be interested in the late 13th - early 14th centuries. By
>that time Leon had merged with Castille and had conquered much of the
>south. Cordoba was conquered in 1236, Sevilla in 1248, Niebla in
>1262,...
>So I think it would be quite plausible to have his grandfather come from
>say, Leon, to fight around and be granted some land and stay. By the
>time Tino's grown he would feel as if he was indeed Cordoban but bear
>the name Garcia. Does it seem far-fetched?
No, though of course I'm only guessing. (I should mention that the
byname <de Córdoba> suggests that he actually lives somewhere else.)
[...]
Talan
Stormcrow
a good thing. I would like to see more Spanish persona's infiltrating the SCA.
Tino
Remove NOSPAM.
mariannep
sc...@math.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott) wrote:
Greetings!
Talan, thank you so much for the info on names. I am amazed that you
study things to that level of detail!! The article I used was more
concerned with usage of names in Leon so they must have been using old
research for their names' origins. It's good to know!
Since you seem to read a lot about basque things..., I have been told
that the Spanish shift from f to h in words like fumo -> humo (smoke) or
farina -> harina (flour) has to do with basque influence. Have you in
your readings come across a serious statement of such an influence?
> >The Spanish heraldry site says that the oldest Garcia's known are
> >those of Leon and Galicia. A Garcia goberned Leon in 843.
>
> Which URL? The one I looked at gave only armory.
It's one of the ones I cited in my long post. The bit about Garcia is
at:
http://members.xoom.com/chema/apel_g.htm
The actual entrance to the site is at:
http://members.xoom.com/chema/
It is mentioned in heraldica.org under national info and seems to be the
only site about Spanish heraldry on the web (AFAIK). I have never
studied heraldry in any detail so I can't vouch for its accuracy or lack
thereof. It does seem to be modern so some things will not be valid, I
guess. If someone could comment on its weaknesses / strengths that would
be wonderful!
All other sites that I have seen just have collections of arms for
various surnames.
Incidentally, do you (or anyone else) know of any good sources for
Spanish heraldry? Books, whatever,... I am trying to get a copy of the
heraldry under the Catholic Monarchy book which is fine for my persona's
period but I would like to have something a bit earlier if possible.
> Agreed. In fact, since the originally patronymic surname <García> is
> (I believe) quite common throughout Spain, it's likely that use of the
> forename spread to the south reasonably early.
>
> >Tino seems to be interested in the late 13th - early 14th centuries.
By
> >that time Leon had merged with Castille and had conquered much of the
> >south. Cordoba was conquered in 1236, Sevilla in 1248, Niebla in
> >1262,...
> >So I think it would be quite plausible to have his grandfather come
from
> >say, Leon, to fight around and be granted some land and stay. By the
> >time Tino's grown he would feel as if he was indeed Cordoban but bear
> >the name Garcia. Does it seem far-fetched?
>
> No, though of course I'm only guessing. (I should mention that the
> byname <de Córdoba> suggests that he actually lives somewhere else.)
Good points!
I can think of several ways out, not all good maybe:
1. His father could have moved elsewhere: his grandfather got lands in
Cordoba in 1236 but his father (a second son) went to war again to help
conquer some other place in Andalusia around the 1260s (I'd need to
check conquest dates, but I don't have the right book with me now) - "de
Cordoba" then becomes a hereditary surname (or is it too early for
this?)
2. Tino moved elsewhere, like... he entered the king's service, where he
got used to saying he was from Cordoba.
3. He got it when he went to the Laurel kingdom (I don't know if this is
customary). Perhaps then he should say "_of_ Cordoba" rather than "_de_
Cordoba".
What do you think of these and which one would be the most likely?
Leonor Martin (Marianne)
woman in search of a family badge
Robert Huff
> Agreed. In fact, since the originally patronymic surname <García> is
> (I believe) quite common throughout Spain, it's likely that use of the
> forename spread to the south reasonably early.
There's a question here, shich may not affect the original poster.
When was "Garcia" used as a last name? In the 11th and 12th
century, it's common in Leon and Castilla (and presumably Asturias
and Galicia) ... but only as a first name - the patronymic is
"Garces".
Diego Mundoz
Carolingia
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
[...]
> There's a question here, shich may not affect the original poster.
> When was "Garcia" used as a last name? In the 11th and 12th
>century, it's common in Leon and Castilla (and presumably Asturias
>and Galicia) ... but only as a first name - the patronymic is
>"Garces".
The unmodified name is also found as a patronymic at that date: <Petro
Garcia> 824, <Fortuni Garsea> 978, <Alvar García> 1040, <Gomiz Garcia
de Anguidanos> 1072, Menendo Garcia> 1125, <Gundisalvo Garsea> 1133,
<Roderico Garsea> 1145, <Fernand Garcia> 1254. (These are all from
Díez Melcón, who implies that there are many, many more.)
Talan
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
>Talan, thank you so much for the info on names. I am amazed that you
>study things to that level of detail!! The article I used was more
>concerned with usage of names in Leon so they must have been using old
>research for their names' origins. It's good to know!
Or they could have something newer than any of my sources; I know a
*lot* more about English and Germanic names and naming practices than
I do about Spanish!
>Since you seem to read a lot about basque things..., I have been told
>that the Spanish shift from f to h in words like fumo -> humo (smoke) or
>farina -> harina (flour) has to do with basque influence. Have you in
>your readings come across a serious statement of such an influence?
I can't say that I really know much about Basque or the Basques, but
I've a useful book or two. In this case, however, Ralph Penny's _A
History of the Spanish Language_ provides the answer. There are two
main theories to account for the change from Latin F- to Spanish /h/
(which was pronounced [h] in Old Spanish but is now silent except in a
few dialects). One of them, strongly supported by Menéndez Pidal,
starts from the observation that a similar change occurred in Gascon
and does indeed hold that this is the result of pre-Basque influence.
There are two main objections. First, this doesn't explain why the
same change also occurred in a few other (small) Romance areas where
Basque influence is impossible. Secondly, it doesn't explain why the
change affected some words (FICU > higo, FILIU > hijo, etc.) and not
others (FORTE > fuerte, FRONTE > frente, etc.).
The other theory, to which Penny subscribes, is that the change
resulted from factors internal to the spoken Latin of the regions
where it occurred. These are generally outlying areas (e.g.,
Cantabria), where Penny supposes that an older pronunciation of F
persisted long after the Romans themselves had gone to [f]. This
older pronunciation, symbolized in ASCII by [P], was bilabial instead
of labiodental; that is, it bore the same relationship to ordinary [p]
as modern Castilian b/v in <Córdoba> bears to ordinary [b]. By
phonetically plausible changes this could have resulted in Latin F
becoming two different sounds in Old Spanish, one [P]-like, the other
[h], depending on the following sound. The [h] eventually became
silent, and the [P]-like sounds became [f]; Penny thinks that the
latter change may have been partly the result of the large influx of
Frenchmen in the 12th and 13th c. (The idea is that they didn't have
the [P]-like sounds and used the nearest French sound.)
>The actual entrance to the site is at:
>http://members.xoom.com/chema/
>It is mentioned in heraldica.org under national info and seems to be the
>only site about Spanish heraldry on the web (AFAIK). I have never
>studied heraldry in any detail so I can't vouch for its accuracy or lack
>thereof. It does seem to be modern so some things will not be valid, I
>guess. If someone could comment on its weaknesses / strengths that would
>be wonderful!
My Spanish is *very* minimal, but I didn't see any glaring errors in
the material on heraldry itself. The author of the site has a fairly
good bibliography, so I suspect that the Spanish coats of arms are
correct. (It's also reassuring that François Velde has a link to the
site, since he definitely knows what he's talking about.)
I suspect that many -- perhaps most -- of the coats blazoned there are
period, but it would be very hard to tell which. It's probably a
pretty good general introduction to Iberian heraldic style, though, at
least for those who read Spanish blazon.
>Incidentally, do you (or anyone else) know of any good sources for
>Spanish heraldry? Books, whatever,... I am trying to get a copy of the
>heraldry under the Catholic Monarchy book which is fine for my persona's
>period but I would like to have something a bit earlier if possible.
I've seen copies of a couple of armorials from the Iberian peninsula
-- I even have a photocopy of one from Navarra -- but they're all
late-period.
[...]
>> No, though of course I'm only guessing. (I should mention that the
>> byname <de Córdoba> suggests that he actually lives somewhere else.)
>Good points!
>I can think of several ways out, not all good maybe:
>1. His father could have moved elsewhere: his grandfather got lands in
>Cordoba in 1236 but his father (a second son) went to war again to help
>conquer some other place in Andalusia around the 1260s (I'd need to
>check conquest dates, but I don't have the right book with me now) - "de
>Cordoba" then becomes a hereditary surname (or is it too early for
>this?)
I suspect that it's a bit early for a hereditary surname, except
possibly amongst the higher nobility.
>2. Tino moved elsewhere, like... he entered the king's service, where he
>got used to saying he was from Cordoba.
More likely others -- especially officials -- would give him the
byname, but the basic idea is good.
>3. He got it when he went to the Laurel kingdom (I don't know if this is
>customary). Perhaps then he should say "_of_ Cordoba" rather than "_de_
>Cordoba".
>What do you think of these and which one would be the most likely?
The second seems to me the most plausible.
Talan
mariannep
sc...@math.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott) wrote:
> >... The article I used was more
> >concerned with usage of names in Leon so they must have been using
old
> >research for their names' origins. It's good to know!
>
> Or they could have something newer than any of my sources; I know a
> *lot* more about English and Germanic names and naming practices than
> I do about Spanish!
Probably not! I have just checked their references and there isn't much
that is new there.
Thanks for the answer to the f to h question. I might have to buy the
book... Ironic? Spanish books on the subject tend to be so stuffy and
dry!
> >The actual entrance to the site is at:
> >http://members.xoom.com/chema/
>
> My Spanish is *very* minimal, but I didn't see any glaring errors in
> the material on heraldry itself. The author of the site has a fairly
> good bibliography, so I suspect that the Spanish coats of arms are
> correct. (It's also reassuring that François Velde has a link to the
> site, since he definitely knows what he's talking about.)
>
> I suspect that many -- perhaps most -- of the coats blazoned there are
> period, but it would be very hard to tell which. It's probably a
> pretty good general introduction to Iberian heraldic style, though, at
> least for those who read Spanish blazon.
Good! That was my (unjustified) impression.
Also, thanks for the comments on books. I think they're among the list I
have been given today by a very kind lady who's into Iberian heraldry. I
will be exploring the possibility of getting those now.
> >I can think of several ways out, not all good maybe:
>
> >1. His father could have moved elsewhere: his grandfather got lands
in
> >Cordoba in 1236 but his father (a second son) went to war again to
help
> >conquer some other place in Andalusia around the 1260s (I'd need to
> >check conquest dates, but I don't have the right book with me now) -
"de
> >Cordoba" then becomes a hereditary surname (or is it too early for
> >this?)
>
> I suspect that it's a bit early for a hereditary surname, except
> possibly amongst the higher nobility.
I feared that. I used to have a persona in the 1280s and she had a
patronymic, too. Not that it was that well-research - more like "it
sounded right".
> >2. Tino moved elsewhere, like... he entered the king's service, where
he
> >got used to saying he was from Cordoba.
>
> More likely others -- especially officials -- would give him the
> byname, but the basic idea is good.
Oops! You're right!
> >3. He got it when he went to the Laurel kingdom (I don't know if this
is
> >customary). Perhaps then he should say "_of_ Cordoba" rather than
"_de_
> >Cordoba".
Of course, following the above, he'd be called the Spaniard, the
Castillian or something along those lines, if at all.
I'm glad I joined this thread - it's been very helpful, even if I am not
searching for a name.
All the best,
Marianne