plastic armor
NateRenaud
>The kind used in 55-Gal. drums, which you find by looking in
>the phone-book for any reasonably populated area under
>"Barrels -- Refurbishing", and which ought to cost somewhere
>around $15.
>>
>
>
>
You're usually better off getting sheet plastic from a pastics
co.(phonebook). *ABS* is very good (go for 1/4in) and often cheap because
it no longer meets fire codes for its original purpose(don't set yourself
on fire).. it can be cut with a jigsaw(use wood cutting blade and go
quickly to avoid melting too much) and can be shaped by heating in oven at
350 but must be formed quickly two t-shirts is enough to avoid burns if
formig on the body...
Kydex is the aproved replacement, generally costs more, don't heat it
as much, otherwise works the same..
For god's sake, cover it with fabric when your done(spray adhesive
works great) or better yet cover with 2-4oz leather to also dampen the
anoyingly un-period KLAK it will make.
WBFOUNTAIN
Plastic barrels work fine but be warned some contained toxic chemicals.
White is ok - food grade, blue - slightly bad and avoid black except if
cleaned real well- toxic
Kyle1axman
Additioanl notes regarding "Nname Brand" sheets of plastic.
ABS can only be rebaked/heated/cooked/ about 2 times. Beyond that you
will run into a slight change in the molecular structure of the plastic.
Thios is primarily due to the method by which it is made.
Kydex can be reheated/baked/cooked multiple times before the plastics cell
structure notices a change.
"Pickle barrels" rarely if ever need to be cooked to form the piece the
way you like it. It is flexable and retains basic shape well.
For any type of plastic 3/16th is about the thickest I have found a need
for. Especially if you cover it in leather. Cloth covers well but it
still looks more like cloth covered plastic. Leather covering adds to the
integrity of the strength as it absorbs more than cloth from impacts.
Leather covered tends to look more like boiled leather even up close.
You can reheat specific areas with a torch aor industrial heat gun/blow
dryer to get added fluting, grooves, lips, etc.... You should always mold
it over what ever you will be wearing underneath, gambison is highly recomended.
In any case thanks to everyone who said Cover It. It is great protection,
easy to use, quick to make armor. It can protect better than lighter guage
metal due to the type of weapons we are using.
Kyle
maer...@fast.net
nater...@aol.com (NateRenaud) wrote:
> Kydex is the aproved replacement, generally costs more, don't heat it
>as much, otherwise works the same..
]
I had heard that Kydex gets really unstable at low temperatures and
has a tendency to shatter when hit while it is below freezing.. I also
cant stand the SQUEEEEK of Kydex..
Just me!
> For god's sake, cover it with fabric when your done(spray adhesive
>works great) or better yet cover with 2-4oz leather to also dampen the
>anoyingly un-period KLAK it will make.
My suit is all black.. and people keep thinking it is black leather or
baked steel anyway.. but I think that is more due to the time and
effort I put into making it LOOK period in every other respect.. (cept
for the pennies as slider washers on the breast...)
Maeryk the Rogue
sal...@niktow.canisius.edu
NateRenaud (nater...@aol.com) wrote:
> The kind used in 55-Gal. drums, which you find by looking in
> the phone-book for any reasonably populated area under
> "Barrels -- Refurbishing", and which ought to cost somewhere
> around $15.
*Ahem!* Why pay $15 a barrel? Go to your local car-wash and ask them to
save you the barrel the soap comes in the next time they use one up.
I know of a household that armored five fighters for next to nothing.
Then go to a doughnut maker and ask for the empty tubs that the Chocolate
Bavarian Frosting comes in. (Warning: The local cook's guild may have
gotten there first. One bucket can marinade enough roast beef for an entire
feast hall.)
-- Dagonell
(Dog Robber Extraordinaire ;-)
______
/ | INTERNET : sal...@niktow.canisius.edu
/ | WEB-NET : http://www-cs.canisius.edu/~salley
________/ | USNAILNET : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street,
|* | Buffalo, New York 14212-2029 U.S.A.
/ Rhydderich Hael | ICBMNET : 42 55 32 N / 78 51 10 W / Alt 600
|______________ | PERSONA : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake
AEthelmearc, `_ | AKA Dagonell the Juggler
East Kingdom `__| DISCLAIMER :"Canisius never agrees with me."
John Hood
To the original poster - each of these are good suggestions. If you
want patterns email me w/return address and i'll get some to you.
A question: has anyone tried heating barrel plastic to get into a
dished shape? I've tried but have not had any luck. I'm even wondering
if it can be done.
Ian.
Michael Z. Williamson
Richard A Lewis wrote:
>
> John Hood <jhh...@execpc.com> wrote:
>
> >WBFOUNTAIN wrote:
> >>
> >> Plastic barrels work fine but be warned some contained toxic chemicals.
> >> White is ok - food grade, blue - slightly bad and avoid black except if
> >> cleaned real well- toxic
> >To the original poster - each of these are good suggestions. If you
> >want patterns email me w/return address and i'll get some to you.
>
> > A question: has anyone tried heating barrel plastic
>
> Ian,
>
> Ive used a propane torch and had pretty good results in shaping
> it....but the best way I found was a paint stripper heat gun. No
> flames to mar the plastic, and with leather gloves, you can simply
> bend it to shape while you are heating it from the underneath
>
> Richard
or use your oven for smaller pieces, increasing the heat slowly. I
believe pvc molds at about 275 F
Norman
blac...@sprynet.com wrote in article <5um7mu$cce$1...@lal.interserv.com>...
> > John Hood <jhh...@execpc.com> writes:
>
> > A question: has anyone tried heating barrel plastic to get into a
> > dished shape? I've tried but have not had any luck. I'm even
wondering
> > if it can be done.
> >
> > Ian.
> >
> >>>>
> Oh, yes. Take your heat gun (or whatever, although anything more
powerful than a heat gun will give you
> problems (*meltdown*)) and aim it at the center of the plastic for
awhile.
> Take a ballpeen hammer and hammer the plastic with the rounded end, being
> careful to hammer outward from the center of whatever you
> want to dish. Repeat as desired.
What the...?...?...?
If you're going to all that trouble already, why the bloody hell not just
get some leather or metal???
(BTW: to dish steel, you don't even need the heat gun)
--
Nahum Kuzari a/k/a Norman Finkelshteyn
Silk Road Designs Armoury
1532 East 35th Street
Brooklyn, NY 11234
(718) 692-0935
gf...@ASAN.com
>
Nils K Hammer
I seem to recall some years ago that rules creeping disqualified knee-cops
made of "pickle bucket" as too thin. Some champions of free armour
would use PVC sewer pipe for the knees, since it comes much thicker
than the HDPE 5 gallon bucket. Kydex has the big advantage of becoming
limp and formable at boiling temperature, but it has been a long time since
I saw any free Kydex.
Have people here really made complex curves from 55 gallon barrel
plastic? For appearances on the field, I believe the most important thing
is avoiding single curved sewer-pipe knee and elbow cops.
Daniel W. Butler-Ehle
NateRenaud (nater...@aol.com) wrote:
: >or use your oven for smaller pieces, increasing the heat slowly. I
: >believe pvc molds at about 275 F
: >
: >
: >
:
: ABS molds at about 350F, but hardens quickly--don't be tempted into more
: heat as this warps it and makes it brittle.
:
: Kydex molds around 325F and is more forgiving
:
: Polycarbonate(lexan) gets somewhat pliable at arround those temps but can
: only be bent in one plane (no dishing)
: Ld Alain mka Nathan Alain Renaud
Barrel plastic is none of the above. It's polyethylene.
A large portion of my armour is made of the stuff.
I have experimented with making complex curves, but most of my armour
is simple curves. My knees are complex curves. They're kinda lumpy.
I recommend just using steel for those parts. (Actually, I recommend
steel for the whole shebang; it's a lot of work to do it right
regardless of what material you use.)
Here's how I dished my knees:
1) start with a piece much larger than you need (so you have
something to grip onto as you're pulling and stretching;
also, the edge might melt and thicken a little more than
the rest)
2) put it in the oven on a surface with a low heat capacity (I
use some blocks of wood set on the racks)
3) heat it up slowly (sorry, my thermometer's broken)
4) the plastic softens. (remove from the oven now if you're
making simple curves)
5) the plastic gets stretchy.
6) pull it out (wear good gloves) and stretch it to shape over
mixing bowls, doorknobs, telemarketers, etc.
7) immerse in cold water
8) use an electric sabresaw to cut off the extra parts; drill
whatever holes are necessary
The stuff really works best, though, for large pieces that only
require simple curves (breastplate, backplate, cuisses, etc.).
(It can even have some advantages over steel for these parts.)
But cheap material is no excuse for poor attention to design.
Make full-scale prototypes out of thick cardstock, especially
if (like at the top of my breastplate) you need to achieve
a compound curve by cutting out a curved V-notch then bend it
in until the edges meet. And for petessake, try to disguise
it.
Ulfin
NateRenaud
John Hood
Actually, my specs say ABS is pliable at 364F, It changes it internal
chemistry at 376F. Not a big window there.
NateRenaud
John hood writes>
>Actually, my specs say ABS is pliable at 364F, It changes it internal
>chemistry at 376F. Not a big window there.
>
>
As I mentioned--Don't be tempted to heat it more because it does get
brittle and it will bubble arround the edges. My oven works great at 350F.
If the official specs say more, I recomend slowly increasing temp till
pliable. It molds great. I've made many pieces and a freind actually made
full articulated legs, using a softball to shape the cop.
P.S. the original post about the PVC was not mine--I've never used
pickle buckets OR pvc. I suspect pvc might not be durable enough. HDPE
however is very tough.
As for the "why bother" arguement. One can make most of what they need
in one evening with minimal skill-- not true of steel, alluminum or
leather. My armor is alluminum, I've sold much alluminum, but I help make
plastic for newbies for free.
John Brattan
>4. Personally, if I want armor made out of steel or leather, I want to pay somebody like yourself
>that does it for a living and can do it right and do it without me busting my ass for weeks to learn
>how to do something that you do in your sleep. Granted, I could find an armorer and get him/her
>to teach me, but this presupposes that I have craploads of time. Plastic, OTOH, is something that
>anybody can fool with; if you screw it up, you throw it away. Big deal. Leather and steel aren't quite
>as forgiving.
I beg to differ. I am a rank amateur with steelwork and I have found
that no heat is necessary and that an angle grinder, file, drill and
ball peen hammer is about all the amateur metal worker needs.
It didn't take me long asking 'round my reenactor buddies to find out
how to work steel. I have progressed from someone who near failed
metalwork at school to being able to make ten recognisable replicas of
'dark age' helmets so far, as well as short swords etc.
It strikes me that most of these tools would be necessary to work
plastic and similar skills would be necessary too.
You will find that scrap steel is dirt cheap and pretty easy to find.
Just look in the scrap bins at your local sheet metal fabricators -
they'll give it to you free or ask for a very small fee. Therefore the
argument that it is expensive I find hard to swallow.
The other argument about it being unforgiving - well you have to hit
it harder I guess- but if you plan properly, measure, and work from
plans, you shouldn't have too many hassles. If you look around you
will find patterns for many armour types on the web.
Mild steel is a great deal closer to the actual material used in
Medieval armour. It's not exact, I grant you, but besides being more
authentic, it looks better, gives you a better idea of how it was used
and gives better protection. Some reenactors pride themselves on their
gear actually rusting and needing an oil and sanding every now and
then.
Cheers,
DJBII
P.S. I agree that leather is expensive.
NateRenaud
I agree with your assesment of tools for steel, etc. However, plastic
still takes less work and less skill.
No hammer is required(nor hammering skill) No stump, no grinder(cuting
with a jigsaw and "1/4in wood" blade makes a fairly smooth edge)
I also disagree about steel being safer. I've seen a lot of "bites"
fromm poorly made steel and the plastic I've worn and made for others has
always been far more protective than the average steel or alluminum.
Plastic also absorbs impact better, instead of transfering it to your skin
so if unsightly bruises on monday morning are not for you, plastic is a
good option.
I wear metal because it's cool, but plastic is still very practical,
and properly covered can look very good
ek
The relative cost of steel and leather might not be enough to keep
someone from learning the ropes and making reasonably authentic armour,
add in the cost of tools and a lack of space, plastic becomes a viable
alternative. Waxed/oiled leather scale is easy and cheap and requires
few tools, but the scrap leather for a knee length byrnie runs about
$30. A good source of scap metal is the junkyard. A shire resident
down here has armour made from a wrecked BMW 350i, the metal ranged from
20 to 16 ga. But at the time Tore, now a Master of the Laurel, lived
here and we had the use of both his shop and his expertise. Luckily,
some of us here learned enuff to get by and can armour the newbies.
The object for some people is to fight and party, they will never
trade up and get more authentic armour and clothing. So what? Life is
full of little disappointments. I'd rather fight someone in atrocious
armour that may offend more delicate sensibilties than go beat my pell
for an hour or two.
Slainte,
Fearghus
White Mountain, Outlands
william thomas powers
>The relative cost of steel and leather might not be enough to keep
>someone from learning the ropes and making reasonably authentic armour,
>add in the cost of tools and a lack of space, plastic becomes a viable
>alternative.
The last time this thread made the rounds it was stated that working metal was
too expensive because of the tools required; while working plastic only
required: a sabresaw, a drill, a file and a hammer. The exact *same* tools
that we had when we started making metal armour! (the metal was free,
scrounged). If you really wanted to you could trade the sabersaw for a chisel.
Please do not claim that the reason you are using plastic is that metal
is too expensive---this is *FALSE*! (there are good reasons to use plastic,
don't hide behind bad ones)
The most expensive tool in our early armoury was bought when we wanted
to make helms---a sheet metal guage, I still have the same gauge
18 years later.
The analogy I see is that claiming that you must have fancy metalworking
tools to make metal armour is like claiming that you must have an
injection molder to make plastic armour---you can make much fancier armour
with them but they are not needed for basic armour.
Thomas who remembers that battles were described as sounding as if a
thousand smiths were pounding on a thousand anvils.
dreiss
Humm. When listing tools neccesary that are different for
plastic and for metal armor...One should include 'A place to work'.
I can make plastic armor in my apartment, by myself, very
quietly. This is particularly important since my *only* time when I
am available to work on private hobbies is between 4am and 9am, after
I get home from work.
Heh. I have a few dozen neighbors that would complain
*quite* loudly if I tried hammering on a sheet of metal at 4:00 in
the morning. After all, my only available workspace is within a dozen
feet of their bedrooms...
Richard A Lewis
nater...@aol.com (NateRenaud) wrote:
> I wear metal because it's cool, but plastic is still very practical,
>and properly covered can look very good
>Ld Alain mka Nathan Alain Renaud
Agreed!
Ive seen it metalized for dress armor...looked GREAT! One fellow I
knew used spray adhesive to cover an entire breastplate with natural
colored glove leather.....kinda defeats the cheaper theory, but looked
damn good! Another fellow sandblasted the outside to a semi rough
finish and layered flat black and semi gloss black paint and made it
look exactly like black suede. Period? Doubt it. But damn fine
looking :)
Now back to bed before my wife sees me up!
Richard McLlewyn loving husband of the most fair Lady Kris :)
Chris and Elisabeth Zakes
dreiss <jar...@snowfox.fur.com> wrote:
Now *that* is a good reason for not making metal armor. OTOH,
leatherworking would be just as quiet.
-Tivar Moondragon
Ansteorra
C and E Zakes
Tivar Moondragon (Patience and Persistence)
and Aethelyan of Moondragon (Decadence is its own reward)
moon...@bga.com
william thomas powers
>>Humm. When listing tools neccesary that are different for
>>plastic and for metal armor...One should include 'A place to work'.
>
>> I can make plastic armor in my apartment, by myself, very
>>quietly. This is particularly important since my *only* time when I
>>am available to work on private hobbies is between 4am and 9am, after
>>I get home from work.
>> Heh. I have a few dozen neighbors that would complain
>>*quite* loudly if I tried hammering on a sheet of metal at 4:00 in
>>the morning. After all, my only available workspace is within a dozen
>>feet of their bedrooms...
Milord; if you have no time---why do you need armour? Why don't you
take your metal work to fighter practice and to events? Surely you don't
fight continuously and the noise should fit right in. I would prefer
that the sabersaw work not be done at events but hammering wouldn't
bother me at all---I usually bring a forge...
I almost always bring a project to events---I did the mortoise and
tennons in oak 4x4s for my Pennsic "Viking Condo" TM at an event.
The kids loved it---I lent them one to use as a teeter-totter.
wilelm the smith (weyland went to a lot of trouble to give us iron)
harry billings
In article <5vbcbl$igg$2...@news3.realtime.net>, moon...@bga.com says...
>
Now *that* is a good reason for not making metal armor. OTOH,
>leatherworking would be just as quiet.
>
> -Tivar Moondragon
> Ansteorra
Yes but I can get 55 gal plastic that had 95% and 100% alcohol in them
for free, can't do that with leather.