Are kilts Polish
John Groseclose
(Michael Turner) wrote:
>In article <9502180208...@aol.com> Bitte...@aol.COM writes:
>>From: Bitte...@aol.COM
>>Subject: Are kilts Polish
>>Date: 18 Feb 1995 02:17:35 -0500
>
>>In the Book God's Playground A History of Poland, by Norman Davies Plate III
>>shows a painting by Anon. "God and Corn will repay" in which several of the
>>Polish members appear to be wearing a skirt like garment wrapped around in
>>the front. Plate VI of this same work shows another no plaid version of this
>>garment. Is this a Kilt? Are Kilts Polish? Are Kilts Russian? Look at
>>this picture and other pictures from cultures where men wore dresses into the
>>16th century or later. Then define Kilts for me and give sources. Only then
>>will we find the answer to the Kilt's origion.
>
>To add further confusion, I have a book with pictures of Polish soldiers. In
>this book one of the soldiers is shown playing a very bagpipe like instrument.
Not surprising. The bagpipes have been found in *many* cultures, from
Turkey through Scotland, in ancient Egypt, and in Spain.
The Scots just haven't given it up yet. I don't believe the Irish have,
either, as I keep hearing Uillean pipes in various pieces.
The "kilt" is merely a piece of some kind of material wrapped around the waist.
I don't wear a kilt, but a breacan feile, or "belted plaid." I, too, am
getting wildly disappointed in the numbers of men who show up at events
like Estrella wearing a bare two yards or so of 30" wide cloth belted
around their waist. There was also one silly bunt at Estrella wearing a
wee patch of leather, with blue swirls painted all over him. I hope he
wore sunscreen, or he's going to be in a world of hurt.
I suspect that part of what Bitterfolk is calling "dresses" are bliauts or
houppelandes.
--
John Groseclose <car...@enet.net>
Another person who will NEVER buy anything inappropriately
advertised on the UseNet...
*Unsolicited Commercial EMail will be proofread for $100 per message*
2Lt Aryeh JS Nusbacher
> To add further confusion, I have a book with pictures of Polish soldiers. In
> this book one of the soldiers is shown playing a very bagpipe like instrument.
A bagpipe is a simple double-reed musical instrument made of an
inside-out goat or sheep. It is a common folk instrument anywhere
people tended goats or sheep. Bulgarians, Arabs, everybody had them.
Aryk Nusbacher | "Sailors were fed food that had
Post-Graduate War Studies Programme | deliberately been made to taste bad."
Royal Military College of Canada | CBC News on the Navy's "Crossing
Kingston, Ontario the Line" ritual, 9 Feb 95
2Lt Aryeh JS Nusbacher
> I would think that kilts are primarily celtish, and that the eastern Europian
> countries were influenced by the Celts, as the Celts were pretty much spread
> out all over.
Kilts (or kiltoid garments) turned up at the end of the sixteenth
century in the north and west of Scotland. This is long after the
groups which shared Celtic linguistic roots no longer covered Europe.
I might venture to suggest that rather than being inherenty related
to Celtic language (tho' that might provide much-needed support to
the theory that the Irish and Scots came over from Egypt led by
Scota, daughter of Pharaoh, and brought with them the Stone of
Destiny), the kilt is a convenient form of clothing based on a
piece of cloth wrapped around the waist to warm and protect various
parts liable to become cold or endangered.
Ferret
>> Although loin cloths are not fancy, they are period, comfortable, and
>> practical in the summer months. Ask any Pict or 'Chux.
>Just this once, I feel moved to ask whether the garment in question
>(a leather patch loin-cloth) is "period" because somebody wore it in
>the Middle Ages as an outer garment, or whether he is, as usual,
>engaging in his hobby of pointless misstatements of fact in aid of
>causing un-necessary noise on the newsgroup.
The loin-cloth is documented from ancient through historic times on bas
reliefs, paintings and in literature. Predominantly as laborers (slaves{?})
apparel. As for Picts, tis' true there is no documentation, I offered those
you may find at events as current testamony to their comfort, along with '
Chux. I document nothing for either personas. But the cloth remains a perion
pice of garb.
As to your flame, It was too pathetic to respond to.
Ferret
Michael Turner
>From: Bitte...@aol.COM
>Subject: Are kilts Polish
>Date: 18 Feb 1995 02:17:35 -0500
>In the Book God's Playground A History of Poland, by Norman Davies Plate III
>shows a painting by Anon. "God and Corn will repay" in which several of the
>Polish members appear to be wearing a skirt like garment wrapped around in
>the front. Plate VI of this same work shows another no plaid version of this
>garment. Is this a Kilt? Are Kilts Polish? Are Kilts Russian? Look at
>this picture and other pictures from cultures where men wore dresses into the
>16th century or later. Then define Kilts for me and give sources. Only then
>will we find the answer to the Kilt's origion.
To add further confusion, I have a book with pictures of Polish soldiers. In
this book one of the soldiers is shown playing a very bagpipe like instrument.
Holly Turner
Tempe, Arizona
mtu...@primenet.com
Honour Horne-Jaruk
>
> Mr. Ferret knows nothing at all about what sort of clothing was
> worn by Picts. I can say this safely, because nobody knows anything
> at all about what Picts wore. To suggest that they lounged around
> wearing leather loin-cloths in northern Britain is absurd.
Respected friend:
I may regret the necessity, but I have to call you on this one. We
have somewhere between twelve and thirty (depending on whether you include
saints, and if so, which ones) carvings of Pictish clothing.
It so happens that none of them show loincloths. One of them does,
however, show knee-length "bermuda shorts" (vertically striped with a
horizontal trim band at the hem).
It seems the inhabitants of what is now called Scotland have a LONG
tradition of cold knees... }:->
Yours in service to the Society-
(Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk R.S.F.
Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf C.O.L. SCA
Una Wicca (That Pict)
If you are doing your best, and your best isn't very good, that's
life. If you aren't bothering to do your best, no matter how good what you're
doing is, that's cheating.
Ferret
>(Much inflammatory, but otherwise accurate, stuff deleted)
>>
>> Mr. Ferret knows nothing at all about what sort of clothing was
>> worn by Picts. I can say this safely, because nobody knows anything
>> at all about what Picts wore. To suggest that they lounged around
>> wearing leather loin-cloths in northern Britain is absurd.
I stated that there are bas-reliefs, pictures and documentation of the loin-
cloth as period, _not_ as Pictish in particular. I did offer Tuchux and Pict
personas as present day sources for descriptions of the comforts of loin-
cloths in the summer months.
Please do not attribute statements to me I did not make.
As for clothing of the Picts and Celts, removing _all_ clothing would be
very authentic but would probably upset a few people at events.
Ferret
David Salley
> >And then there was the gent in the Drygestani encampment with only a
> >gentleman's strap under his armour. I believe Anrea referred to him as
> >"eye candy." Certainly made getting up in the morning to watch the
> >fighters armor worthwhile.
Alexis Vladescu (Lori Iversen) writes:
> Yeah. I saw him, too. First reaction: "Oh, my." Second reaction:
> "Nice tan." Final reaction (picturing in my mind all the bits that
> could get squished by a poorly --or particularly well-- thrown blow):
> Pretty, though.
I'm not sure, but I think we've found the SCA's answer to Lucky, the
actor from the Coke commercials. ;-) ;-) ;-)
- Dagonell
SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet : sal...@cs.canisius.edu (Please use this, reply may not work.)
USnail-net : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029
Movie Double Feature : "Highlander 3" & "Pulp Fiction"
(Contributed by Matsuyama Yoshitoshi)
Ferret
>Ordinarily, I do not reply to Mr. Ferret's messages, since he has
>proved over many months of newsgroup postings that his head is so
>firmly rammed up his arse that he cannot talk without breaking wind.
>Just this once, I feel moved to ask whether the garment in question
>(a leather patch loin-cloth) is "period" because somebody wore it in
>the Middle Ages as an outer garment, or whether he is, as usual,
>engaging in his hobby of pointless misstatements of fact in aid of
>causing un-necessary noise on the newsgroup.
>Mr. Ferret knows nothing at all about what sort of clothing was
>worn by Picts. I can say this safely, because nobody knows anything
>at all about what Picts wore. To suggest that they lounged around
>wearing leather loin-cloths in northern Britain is absurd.
>To bring the Upchucks in as an example of anything other than poor
>taste and pointless drumming is amusing at best.
>"Period, comfortable and practical" indeed. Zulus did very well
>in the tropics wearing loincloths -- pity we can't send Mr. Ferret
>out to join them.
>Aryk Nusbacher
Why must you repost your pathetic flame instead of responding to my reply to
this same flame of yours last week ?
I mentioned that the loin cloth is well documented from antiquity through
the middle ages in print, painting and bas-reliefs.
I did not state that the Picts wore them, rather that the picts are
mentioned as going _naked_ into battle. The reference to 'chux and current "
picts" was to give reference to testamony of their comfort.
I wish you weren't so quick to insult me and put words in my mouth.
Ferret
Iain Odlin
>I did not state that the Picts wore them, rather that the picts are
>mentioned as going _naked_ into battle. The reference to 'chux and current "
>picts" was to give reference to testamony of their comfort.
Now seems as good a time as any to point out that "naked" hasn't always
meant the same thing as it does now. In, at the very least, Elizabethan
times, "naked" meant anything up to wearing an "under" shirt. Field
labourers, for example, worked "naked" in the fields. Celts threw off
their mantles and waded "naked" into the thick of the fray. Et c.
--
------------------------- Iain Odlin, od...@reed.edu -------------------------
42 Clifton Street, Portland ME 04101
----------- "Don't ask me how it works or I'll start to whimper." ------------
Ferret
> Now seems as good a time as any to point out that "naked" hasn't always
> meant the same thing as it does now. In, at the very least, Elizabethan
> times, "naked" meant anything up to wearing an "under" shirt. Field
> labourers, for example, worked "naked" in the fields. Celts threw off
> their mantles and waded "naked" into the thick of the fray. Et c.
The references to "naked" celts (and some include picts as well) such as
Wainwright, Henderson, Chadwick and many others refer to are based on
descriptions by mostly Greek and Roman authors from 200 B.C. to 800 A.D.
Hardly Elizabethan.
Ferret
Iain Odlin
I hardly ever pull this card, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask your
sources here, Ferret. The only references I've seen have either been
Elizabethan, or were Elizabethan translations from the Latin or Greek.
[Or, lately, were simple plagiarisms of Elizabethan translations]
I am not saying that there are not such references, I am merely saying
that I have not seen them, and would be very interested in seeing them
if they do indeed exist.
-Iain, who'll probably miss the response, if any, because he's going to be
offline for a week, starting in a few hours. Please email anything
truly interesting, if you're of a mind to
--
------------------------- Iain Odlin, od...@reed.edu -------------------------
42 Clifton Street, Portland ME 04101
----------------- It never rains but when it fucking pours... ----------------
Ferret
>>The references to "naked" celts (and some include picts as well) such as
>>Wainwright, Henderson, Chadwick and many others refer to are based on
>>descriptions by mostly Greek and Roman authors from 200 B.C. to 800 A.D.
>>Hardly Elizabethan.
> I hardly ever pull this card, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask your
> sources here, Ferret. The only references I've seen have either been
> Elizabethan, or were Elizabethan translations from the Latin or Greek.
> [Or, lately, were simple plagiarisms of Elizabethan translations]
> I am not saying that there are not such references, I am merely saying
> that I have not seen them, and would be very interested in seeing them
> if they do indeed exist.
I only have Caesar and Tacitus on hand, I don't think Tacitus mentions it
but I do remember Caesar describing the Brittons as naked with blue coloring
the result of dye or tatooing (depending on translation) in book 4 I think.
The celts and picts are treated on this matter in Henderson's The Celts,
Wainwright's The Problem with the Picts, and Helm's The Celts. These are
20th cent. authors. I do have my bibliography here and will post the precise
sources on the celts and picts that I have used in my research.
The problem with Celtic and Pictish studies is that what is speculated on
_all_ of them from La Tene to Ireland is that bits of information over 1000
years and all of Europe is compiled to give a general idea of what they were
like. There is insuficient information to establish anything for any
particular place or time except post christian Ireland.
You may research and postulate your own speculation, what ever you theorize (
within reason) will probably be supported and negated by various experts in
the field. If you like jigsaw puzzles this is the historical topic to get
into, whether as archaeologist, anthropologist, historian, linguist, or just
an interested amatuer.
I will post a short biblio in a few days, a complete list of resources will
follow.
Ferret
st...@giant.intranet.com
>
> I only have Caesar and Tacitus on hand, I don't think Tacitus mentions it
> but I do remember Caesar describing the Brittons as naked with blue coloring
> the result of dye or tatooing (depending on translation) in book 4 I think.
Book V of the Gallic War, H.J. Edwards translation:
"Of all the Britons the inhabitants of Kent, an entirely
maritime district, are by far the most civilised, differing
but little from the Gallic manner of life. Of the inlanders
most do not sow corn, but live on milk and flesh and clothe
themselves in skins. All the Britons, indeed, dye themselves
with woad, which produces a blue colour, and makes their
appearance in battle more terrible. They wear long hair,
and shave every part of the body save the head and the upper lip."
Hope that helps.
sa