Blackpowder, you must be kidding
WIL...@eivax.ualr.edu
blackpowder device as a part of combat. The thought is ludicrous. Now as
an A&S entry, that is another idea.
Brandr
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Jason Willis | First to fight, | Brandr Wyborn
willis%ei...@ualr.edu | First to die, |Barony of Small Gray Bear
Little Rock, AR | First to take a break. | Kingdom of Meridies
| -Earl Phelan Cathoirmor |
==============================================================================
Bill Wilson
archery it can be used as a skills event firing at a target or using blanks
a cannon or matchlock can be used to herald the opening of an event. I for
one would not advocate use of blackpowder in combat but am an avid proponent
of having shooting events.
Lord Gwylym
WIL...@eivax.ualr.EDU wrote:
: Personally, I am extremely scaried of facing anyone using any kind of
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William E Wilson (w...@sunset.cse.nau.edu | wilson@nauvax)
Northern AZ Univ Flagstaff, AZ 86011
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William E Wilson (w...@sunset.cse.nau.edu | wilson@nauvax)
Northern AZ Univ Flagstaff, AZ 86011
Bill McNutt
>Personally, I am extremely scaried of facing anyone using any kind of
>blackpowder device as a part of combat. The thought is ludicrous. Now as
>an A&S entry, that is another idea.
Well, I will point out that the Civil War and Revolutionary War re-enactment
groups successfully discharge black powder arms over each others heads by the
thousands every year, with few injuries. But those are re-enactments whose
outcome is already known, and they arent' shooting AT each other.
I dont' think that anyone is advocating the use of live black powder arms
anymore than anyone is advocating the use of live steel.
F.L. Watkins
Black powder is not allowed at events in the Middle Kingdom
(black powder weapons are, however). And I know why. I helped
make the law.
Many years ago, there was a gentle who knew nothing of black
powder, brought an oop flintlock pistol to an event and
discharged it. Indoors. The MK curia regis, not wishing to
single out one person, made a law forbidding black powder.
We figured that if someone responsible came up with the
proper authenticity and safety regs at a later date, the
law could be amended (aside: at least two of us who were
then on the curia are now very active in black-powder-
oriented reeanacting). By the time a bunch of us got around
to writing up regulations, the law was so entrenched that
people were telling me, Well, the Board outlawed black
powder, that's why we wrote that law way back when. :)
In coming up with the aforementioned regulations, we were
adament on three points: one, that black powder was never
to be used *on* the field of combat; two, that we would
never use any projectiles beyond carefully restricted
wadding; three, that safety precautions far outweighed any
authenticity concerns.
In brief then, whenever I speak of using black powder at
an SCA events, I am referring only to its use in a
demonstration or as a signalling device. I am now, always
have been and probably always will be opposed to using
any sort of projectiles fired by black-powder ordinance
on the field of combat.
Yrs, Folo
--
Damin de Folo - F.L.Watkins - fo...@prairienet.org
Baron Wurm Wald (MK) - Commander Baldwin's Reg't (NWTA)
"I'm not quite clear about what you just spoke--
Was that a parable or a very subtle joke?"-Crash Test Dummies
Tom Perigrin
>
> Personally, I am extremely scaried of facing anyone using any kind of
> blackpowder device as a part of combat. The thought is ludicrous. Now as
> an A&S entry, that is another idea.
Yes, well, when I include anything with black powder in an SCA or
recreation event, it is never used to aim AT somebody... In fact, I
seldom do more than shoot blanks or tennis balls down range away from
everybody. The only time I shoot live ammo is during strictly controlled
target practice at sites with safe backdrops (in a quarry, for example). I
do not shoot live ammo at events.
However, I got my black powder training in The Sealed Knot, an English
Civil War (1640-1649) recreation group. These people are amazing... we
make such a big thing about Pennisic, as well we should since it is the
biggest SCA event each year. But the Sealed Knot has major musters with
over 10,000 fighters almost every month from spring to fall (and twice some
months). During a major muster these 10,000 people take field, and 2/3
wave pikes at each other, and almost 1/3 shoot guns more or less at each
other, and a small handful shoot cannons or ride horses around... Minor
musters take place almost every weekend, and draw "only" 500 to 2000
people. I guess the greater density of the UK allows this sort of draw.
It was "easy" for me to pack up my estate car (station wagon) and starting
from Oxford I could drive to almost any part of England (not Scotland or
Wales) within 12 hours. I suspect that 12 hours driving time from Tucson
covers less than 10% of the USA.
Surprisingly, very few people get seriously hurt... I've seldom heard of
more than a few broken thumbs, cracked ribs and occasionally a broken major
bone or two from a major muster *grin*. And dehydration isn't a problem
in England, even in the summer... keeping one's powder dry IS a problem.
But I personally don't suggest that for the SCA... I think black powder
tends to ruin whatever romance of chivalry we are striving towards. Even
though I am a later period character, and spend most of my time doing 16'th
C woodwork, and own 15'th and 16'th C cannons and harquebues, I still
would support a limitation of 800 - 1300 for the Society. I would give up
my own persona for what I percieve the greater good of the Society.
On the other hand, since Provine and the BOD are seemingly doing everything
they can to destroy the Society, I guess this doesn't really matter.
Joe Bethancourt
: Black powder is not allowed at events in the Middle Kingdom
: (black powder weapons are, however). And I know why. I helped
: make the law.
: Many years ago, there was a gentle who knew nothing of black
: powder, brought an oop flintlock pistol to an event and
: discharged it. Indoors. The MK curia regis, not wishing to
: single out one person, made a law forbidding black powder.
Easily covered here in mundane law. It's called "misconduct involving
firearms" and we'd hang him for it.
: We figured that if someone responsible came up with the
: proper authenticity and safety regs at a later date, the
: law could be amended (aside: at least two of us who were
: then on the curia are now very active in black-powder-
: oriented reeanacting). By the time a bunch of us got around
: to writing up regulations, the law was so entrenched that
: people were telling me, Well, the Board outlawed black
: powder, that's why we wrote that law way back when. :)
: In coming up with the aforementioned regulations, we were
: adament on three points: one, that black powder was never
: to be used *on* the field of combat; two, that we would
: never use any projectiles beyond carefully restricted
: wadding; three, that safety precautions far outweighed any
: authenticity concerns.
And when Count Sir Denis of the Titans and I introduced gonnes locally
(hand-cannon, slowmatch fired) we followed the same rules.
: In brief then, whenever I speak of using black powder at
: an SCA events, I am referring only to its use in a
: demonstration or as a signalling device. I am now, always
: have been and probably always will be opposed to using
: any sort of projectiles fired by black-powder ordinance
: on the field of combat.
Us too. Ain't no way to make it safe, even if you -do- wrap the rattan
shot in duct tape......
--
lock...@indirect.com PO Box 35190 Locksley Plot Systems
White Tree Productions Phoenix, AZ 85069 USA CyberMongol Ltd
"Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
at best it will break your heart, at worst, get you dead."
Bill McNutt
>Surprisingly, very few people get seriously hurt... I've seldom heard of
>more than a few broken thumbs, cracked ribs and occasionally a broken major
>bone or two from a major muster *grin*. And dehydration isn't a problem
>in England, even in the summer... keeping one's powder dry IS a problem.
Occasionally, rarely, the Second South Carolina Regiment of Foot would
face/have and idiot who forgot to remove the ramrod from his musket, and shoot
it. Once or twice people have been shot with ramrods in the American Civil
War and Revolutionary War (American Rebellion for you British types)
re-enactment societies.
I, too, would rather not see black power become common at events. But I can
stay away from smokepole events, so I also see no reason why it shouldn't be
done. I'm a great believer in voting with my feet.
Tom Perigrin
MCN...@gateway.ce.utk.edu (Bill McNutt) wrote:
>
> In article <tip-0906...@gold.aichem.arizona.edu> t...@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin) writes:
> >Surprisingly, very few people get seriously hurt... I've seldom heard of
> >more than a few broken thumbs, cracked ribs and occasionally a broken major
> >bone or two from a major muster *grin*. And dehydration isn't a problem
> >in England, even in the summer... keeping one's powder dry IS a problem.
>
> Occasionally, rarely, the Second South Carolina Regiment of Foot would
> face/have and idiot who forgot to remove the ramrod from his musket, and shoot
> it. Once or twice people have been shot with ramrods in the American Civil
> War and Revolutionary War (American Rebellion for you British types)
> re-enactment societies.
Yes, I believe California Renassaince Pleasure Faire had a ramrod shot
through a patrons upper arm... what fun!
The Sealed Knot has fairly rigid safety standards for black powder (anybody
can grab a pike and hit each other with it). There is a required minimal
drill that you have to be able to go through in front of a rather skeptical
panel. But more importantly, many people are starting to use some of the
original drills, which have up to 32 steps. A good gunnery sargeant or
leutenant will go through each step slowly enough that he can see the
completion of each step by the lack of motion... In both Barret's drill
(1630) and DeGhyn's drill (1580) there are two intermediate steps
Recover thy Ramrod
Replace thy Ramrod
If these steps are done slowly, and the pause is added to make sure the
command has been completed, it tends to enhance safety.
Many of the Sealed Knot groups have ADDED a final step before the match is
fixed in the serpentine... "Check thy Ramrod". Some groups use a very
abbreviated drill, of only 4 steps, "Load Thy Musket", "Cock thy Match",
"Prepare to give Fire", "Give Fire", but most of those have added the
check between steps 1 and 2.
A good leutenant or sargeant is supposed to visually check his ranks to see
if the ramrods are withdrawn. Since a sargent commands about 5 - 20 men,
this is not difficult, even in the confusion of a Sealed Knot Melee. Some
groups paint the ends of the ramrods RED to make it easier to spot.
BROWNTR
WIL...@eivax.ualr.EDU wrote:
: Personally, I am extremely scaried of facing anyone using any
kind of
: blackpowder device as a part of combat.
"But Marshal, they're *rattan* bullets!"
-- Old TI cartoon
Auntie
F.L. Watkins
The NorthWest Territory Alliance, which is *very* safety
conscious, does not allow the use of a ramrod on the battle-
field. In fact, for many years, participants could not even
*carry* a ramrod out onto the field. Any violation of these
rules can be punished by permanent revocation of membership.
On the other hand, our big bugbears are used cartridges,
which usually retain a small amount of black powder. Too often,
these are thrown on the ground; afterwards, little kids wander
the battlefield trying to find enough powder to blow something
up. It's a real problem, and one which we are attacking
vigorously.
Keep in mind the big difference between SCA and other reenact-
ment groups: they are *all* choreographed to one extent or
another. They are firing above people's heads, even with
blanks. They have a safety area in front of all ordinance. All
hand-to-hand combat (which got very popular in the NWTA after
LAST OF THE MOHICANS *grin*) is very carefully worked out.
Their reaction to SCA combat is similar to some persons'
reaction to blackpowder: Ghod, that's dangerous. I'd never
do that!
Siohn Ap Govannan
t...@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin) writes:
>In article <MCNUTT.15...@gateway.ce.utk.edu>,
>MCN...@gateway.ce.utk.edu (Bill McNutt) wrote:
>> Civil War reenactor once and he told me that depending on the size of
field they are working on that the troops are not even allowed to carry .arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin) writes:
>> their ramrods or bayonets out onto the field, and no wading is used, ard of
>> >The powder is poured into the muzzel from the paper cartridge and n major
>> the paper is then discarded. Perhaps since they use percussion caps oblem
>> tamping and wadding is not as neccessary. lem.