5 Most Evil People
Andre/Adolphus
five most evil people that have ever been in the SCA. We
both agreed on Aonghais dubh Tarb as being in the #1 spot
but disagreed on who should be on the rest of the list
Thoughts?
André
PS If you are offended by this question, sorry
Michael Lacy
Andre/Adolphus <baird...@pop.sttl.uswest.net> wrote:
I don't know if they are members, but whoever is responsible for "The New
Adventures of Robin Hood" should definitely be on the list.
Burning's too good for 'em...Hanging's too good for them...
They should be cut up into little bitty pieces and buried alive!!
Hannover Fist
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
: My mother and I were talking recently about who were the
: five most evil people that have ever been in the SCA. We
: both agreed on Aonghais dubh Tarb as being in the #1 spot
: but disagreed on who should be on the rest of the list
: Thoughts?
: André
: PS If you are offended by this question, sorry
No you're not sorry. If the idea occurred to you that the question was
offensive and you decided to post it anyway, then you aren't sorry in the
slightest and pretending to be so is the equivalent of saying "ha ha, just
joking" at the end of a flame.
Rather than arguing offensiveness, how about asking youself what POSSIBLE
useful benefit could come from discussing this topic?
Tangwystyl
--
*********************************************************
Heather Rose Jones hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
**********************************************************
Tracy Schulman
> No you're not sorry. If the idea occurred to you that the question was
> offensive and you decided to post it anyway, then you aren't sorry in the
> slightest and pretending to be so is the equivalent of saying "ha ha, just
> joking" at the end of a flame.
>
> Rather than arguing offensiveness, how about asking youself what POSSIBLE
> useful benefit could come from discussing this topic?
>
> Tangwystyl
>
> I agree.... especially since I don't believe you can judge an individual on
> things that may or may not have happened before they ever joined our
> Society, people change......
my two cents,
Aine
>
> *********************************************************
> Heather Rose Jones hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
> **********************************************************
--
****************************************
* Interested in Buying or Selling Avon *
* E-mail me at Moth...@frontiernet.net*
* For More Information *
****************************************
Josh Mittleman
>>five most evil people that have ever been in the SCA. We
>>both agreed on Aonghais dubh Tarb as being in the #1 spot
>>but disagreed on who should be on the rest of the list
>>Thoughts?
Yes: What an astoundingly stupid, thoughtless, and childish posting!
Did it ever occur to you, for example, that there are a LOT of people who
read this newsgroup who accounted Aonghais a good friend for many years and
who were deeply, deeply hurt by the way he destroyed himself? I will note
that I'm not particularly one of those people, but I know a lot of them.
No, it probably didn't occur to you. As I said.
Arval
Anthony J. Bryant
> No you're not sorry. If the idea occurred to you that the question was
> offensive and you decided to post it anyway, then you aren't sorry in the
> slightest and pretending to be so is the equivalent of saying "ha ha, just
> joking" at the end of a flame.
>
> Rather than arguing offensiveness, how about asking youself what POSSIBLE
> useful benefit could come from discussing this topic?
Agreed, in spades.
How about we switch this around, in the light of the season of charity and
hospitality?
Who do you think were -- or are -- the five most positively influential
people in the SCA? (Omitting those at the First Backyard Party for obvious
"they started the whole thing" reasons, of course.)
Effingham
Cumhail
Cumhail
Andre/Adolphus wrote:
>
> My mother and I were talking recently about who were the
> five most evil people that have ever been in the SCA. We
> both agreed on Aonghais dubh Tarb as being in the #1 spot
> but disagreed on who should be on the rest of the list
>
> Thoughts?
>
> André
>
> PS If you are offended by this question, sorry
--
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. --B. Franklin
Susan Carroll-Clark
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu wrote in message
<82e3ic$ead$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>...
>Andre/Adolphus (baird...@pop.sttl.uswest.net) wrote:
>: My mother and I were talking recently about who were the
>: five most evil people that have ever been in the SCA. We
>: both agreed on Aonghais dubh Tarb as being in the #1 spot
>: but disagreed on who should be on the rest of the list
>
>: Thoughts?
>
>: André
>
>: PS If you are offended by this question, sorry
>
>Rather than arguing offensiveness, how about asking youself what POSSIBLE
>useful benefit could come from discussing this topic?
Hear, hear. I'd rather talk about inpirational people. So let's hear
it--who has inspired you in the SCA? On a large scale, I very much admire
Cariadoc's long-term role as a promoter of fun authenticity in the SCA.
Anyone else?
Nicolaa
Heather Murphy
Josh Mittleman wrote in message <82e8ma$5n7$1...@news.panix.com>...
>>>My mother and I were talking recently about who were the
>>>five most evil people that have ever been in the SCA. We
>>>both agreed on Aonghais dubh Tarb as being in the #1 spot
>>>but disagreed on who should be on the rest of the list
Is there any way for me to ask who Aonghais dubh Tarb is/was, and why he is
so memorable, to satisfy my own curiosity, without insulting his friends OR
his enemies?
Jemma
Ted Eisenstein
and
>hospitality?
All Crowns, for they give awards to people who deserve them (some of
whom
thought they'd never get an award at all).
All people who wear favors, for they show that they care about someone
else - and
show that person that some else cares about them.
All event staff people, for many of them work long hours at thankless
jobs for
next to no thanks, for without them we wouldn't enjoy ourselves nearly
as much.
And my peer, of course, who's one of the nicest people around; she puts
up
with me, of course, which is why she _has_ to be a peach. <grin>
Any additions to the list?
Alban
DirkViking
I agree, publically humiliating someone is inexcusable. Furthermore, one
should NEVER speak in absolutes. Ah, hang on a sec... I'm all confused and
hypocritical...
Shifting topics...
We may be able to agree to five people who've had the most positive influence
on the SCA as a whole, but I'd like to commend those individuals who, in their
smaller way, welcome new folks to the group, help other members carry stuff
from their cars, dash around madly at the last minute trying to rescue the
rained-out event, and so on.
There's a ton of good folks in the group and we need them all to put the S in
SCA.
- Dirk
ps Straum: thanks for welcoming Suniva and I to the Shire!
*** REMOVE WRAPPER BEFORE EMAILING ***
Cumhail
help taint the next generation just as good one help bolster it.
This shiny, happy, knee-jerk we all deserve love and self-esteem thing
is just too ridiculous for words. We must judge each other on our
personal merit, and that alone. Is a peer who never takes an associate
underserving of commendation merely for that reason? Is a fighter who
wears no favor for whatever reason a detriment to our Society? I
realize that you were trying to put forward a positive message, but mass
praise is as worthless as mass condemnation is unfair.
Cumhail
--
Deloris Booker
On Sun, 5 Dec 1999, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:
> hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu wrote:
>
> > No you're not sorry. If the idea occurred to you that the question was
> > offensive and you decided to post it anyway, then you aren't sorry in the
> > slightest and pretending to be so is the equivalent of saying "ha ha, just
> > joking" at the end of a flame.
> >
> > Rather than arguing offensiveness, how about asking youself what POSSIBLE
> > useful benefit could come from discussing this topic?
>
> Agreed, in spades.
>
> How about we switch this around, in the light of the season of charity and
> hospitality?
>
> Who do you think were -- or are -- the five most positively influential
> people in the SCA? (Omitting those at the First Backyard Party for obvious
> "they started the whole thing" reasons, of course.)
>
>
> Effingham
>
>
>
This is a MUCH more useful and interesting question! Now I'll have to go
away and think about it for a while though.
Aldreada of the Lakes
Ihone & Eileigh
to the SCA, and everyone we met so far has been very nice, and helpful. We
are always encouraged to ask questions. We have been welcomed to events by
people we've met previously and included as part of the group at each as
well.
There ARE those we know better than others, but the point is EVERYONE has
been great.
Ihone & Eileigh
Cumhail wrote:
> First of all, everyone helps train the next generation, and bad peers
> help taint the next generation just as good one help bolster it.
>
> This shiny, happy, knee-jerk we all deserve love and self-esteem thing
> is just too ridiculous for words. We must judge each other on our
> personal merit, and that alone. Is a peer who never takes an associate
> underserving of commendation merely for that reason? Is a fighter who
> wears no favor for whatever reason a detriment to our Society? I
> realize that you were trying to put forward a positive message, but mass
> praise is as worthless as mass condemnation is unfair.
>
> Cumhail
>
> Ted Eisenstein wrote:
> >
> > >How about we switch this around, in the light of the season of charity
> > and
> > >hospitality?
Angel Sparrow
Andre/Adolphus wrote:
>
> My mother and I were talking recently about who were the
> five most evil people that have ever been in the SCA.
Sounds like the Washington Post's "Most evil people of the Millennium"
list. Vlad Tepis is on it! but Bill Clinton is still rating second.
I like the idea of inspirational people better.
That said:
High on the evil list goes John the Lost.
Just my opinion. The man was a psychic vampire,
destructive to every woman in his life,
and propositioned his own 14 year old daughter.
On my inspirational list are:
Mistress Juelda of Salisbury, who insisted I become a bard.
Duke (etc etc etc etc) John Bearkiller, who is so low profile I
was amazed. ("Who was that nice man who commandeered the ice bucket
for me when I smashed my hand setting up for court?")
Dorothea, although I've never met her, I find her posts
always encouraging and useful.
And there are dozens more, including Scaitch the head of
the now-defunct House Dressing, Luigsech, Dame Fiona, Alvira MacDonald,
Rosalyn, Marie du Puey, Larcomb, etc. etc.
Aethelynde, in and out but dedicated to raising
SCA population the hard way. (kidlet #4 is on the way)
EternalSalmissra
>>Did it ever occur to you, for example, that there are a LOT of people who
read this newsgroup who accounted Aonghais a good friend for many years and who
were deeply, deeply hurt by the way he destroyed himself? <<
Yes. I am afraid that it probably did occur to the original poster.
Unfortunately.
I do not know of the person they are referring to, but if they post that the
person is 'evil', then yes, they do know what they are doing.
Shame on them.
Golda ferch Deiniol
(name and device in submission)
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring the bell and run...He hates that!
David Friedman
<HLMu...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Josh Mittleman wrote in message <82e8ma$5n7$1...@news.panix.com>...
> >>>My mother and I were talking recently about who were the
> >>>five most evil people that have ever been in the SCA. We
> >>>both agreed on Aonghais dubh Tarb as being in the #1 spot
> >>>but disagreed on who should be on the rest of the list
>
>
> Is there any way for me to ask who Aonghais dubh Tarb is/was, and why he
> is
> so memorable, to satisfy my own curiosity, without insulting his friends
> OR
> his enemies?
Being both, perhaps I can answer.
Anghais was a long-time SCA member, twice king of the East, twice
convicted by courts of chivalry (one in the East, once in Caid,
different charges), currently in prison in Florida after being convicted
of murder in a rather unpleasant case unrelated to the SCA.
And to see if I can get anything useful out of the question, let me
raise a point that I owe to C.S. Lewis (_Screwtape Letters_). The people
who do damage, in the SCA or elsewhere, are not people who are wholly
evil. Someone who lacked all virtues wouldn't be able to accomplish
anything. Indeed, Lewis argues, existence itself is a virtue, so if the
devil were wholly evil he would not even exist--let alone be courageous,
intelligent, or resolute.
The people who do damage are people who combine virtues that make them
able to move others and accomplish things with faults that make their
effect on others, and the things they accomplish, often bad. That
describes Aonghais.
Part of the verdict of his first court of chivalry was an abatement to
his arms (for the offense of deliberately lying to his people when he
was king). He got the news that the Board of Directors (for reasons I do
not know) had cancelled the verdict of that court before the tournament
in which he won his second crown. He left the abatement on the shield
until after the tournament was over--I believe on the grounds that he
was guilty of the offense, and so deserved at least that much punishment.
--
David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html
Cumhail
something so difficult? <sigh>
C
Angel Sparrow wrote:
>
>
> That said:
> High on the evil list goes <del>.
> Just my opinion. The man was a psychic vampire,
> destructive to every woman in his life,
> and propositioned his own 14 year old daughter.
>
J&M
DukeAndrew
>read this newsgroup who accounted Aonghais a good friend for many years and
>who were deeply, deeply hurt by the way he destroyed himself?
I was, and remain, amongst those people.
Andrew
Ya gotta be smarter than a rock to pick up a rock.
Ashland S Henderson
David Friedman wrote in message ...
>In article <82ec8b$sd$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, "Heather Murphy"
><HLMu...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>> Josh Mittleman wrote in message <82e8ma$5n7$1...@news.panix.com>...
>> >>>My mother and I were talking recently about who were the
>> >>>five most evil people that have ever been in the SCA. We
>> >>>both agreed on Aonghais dubh Tarb as being in the #1 spot
>> >>>but disagreed on who should be on the rest of the list
>>
>>
>> Is there any way for me to ask who Aonghais dubh Tarb is/was, and why he
>> is
>> so memorable, to satisfy my own curiosity, without insulting his friends
>> OR
>> his enemies?
>
>Being both, perhaps I can answer.
>
>Anghais was a long-time SCA member, twice king of the East, twice
>convicted by courts of chivalry (one in the East, once in Caid,
>different charges), currently in prison in Florida after being convicted
>of murder in a rather unpleasant case unrelated to the SCA.
It is probably necessary to mention that both of the people convicted
in the murder were SCA members. I won't mention the other name
since I also regard the question above as both pointless and stupid.
Ashland S Henderson
Anthony J. Bryant wrote in message <384AB6F0...@indiana.edu>...
>hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu wrote:
>
>> No you're not sorry. If the idea occurred to you that the question was
>> offensive and you decided to post it anyway, then you aren't sorry in the
>> slightest and pretending to be so is the equivalent of saying "ha ha,
just
>> joking" at the end of a flame.
>>
>> Rather than arguing offensiveness, how about asking youself what POSSIBLE
>> useful benefit could come from discussing this topic?
>
>Agreed, in spades.
>
>hospitality?
>
>people in the SCA? (Omitting those at the First Backyard Party for obvious
>"they started the whole thing" reasons, of course.)
Damn, that means I'm omitted.
Mind you, I would by no means include myself.
My take would be:
Diana Listmaker: Had the moxie to get it started, the intelligence to take a
mailing list of people for the future, the drive to get out the first
however many
TI's, and a great deal of the vision that put the SCA on it's course for
good or
evil, take your pick. I don't believe DIana can be ommitted even though she
was
at the first party.
Hilary of Serendip: First got the SCA on a firm financial footing as
treasurer,
served many long and difficult years as Stewart, earning the pretty much
unqualified admiration of those who knew and worked with her. I had the
pleasure of presenting her with a Pelican signed by the crowns of all five
of
the then existing kingdoms for her work as chancelor.
William the Lucky: First, to my mind, really successful stewart of the SCA.
Kingdom seneschal, SCA Stewart and Marshal, tireless treker to and
encourager of other groups, three times king of the west, and writer of more
letters than I can count encouraging and advising others.
Lach
Susan Carroll-Clark <nicola...@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
news:IRx24.2919$Ih4....@typhoon.columbus.rr.com...
>
> Hear, hear. I'd rather talk about inpirational people. So let's hear
> it--who has inspired you in the SCA? On a large scale, I very much
admire
> Cariadoc's long-term role as a promoter of fun authenticity in the SCA.
>
> Anyone else?
>
> Nicolaa
>
the GOOD guys who got recognition), Duke Brion of Tarragon (Who I met in the
shower line at my first event) and Master Grendal here in An Tir.
All three of these people are good people.
Lach
jezreel...@my-deja.com
talking "Dr. Evil", or Chaotic Evil? But then I read the rest of the
posts up until now, and I have to say I agree with most of them.
What's wrong with you and your mother that you have to sit around and
talk/think badly of others to entertain yourselves? Not to say that I
never say bad things about people, but to go to the effort of asking
others (whom I don't even really know), to participate in my berating
is just too much. If you want to say cruel things about Aonghais dubh
Tarb, (whoever he is, I have no clue), keep them to yourself and your
mother who didn't teach you any manners.
As for those who have inspired me, I'd have to say that nearly the
entire Barony March of Mons Tonitrus and it's close neighbor, Tir
Ysgthir, inspired me just by their sheer number of kind folk I met
while living out that way who were willing to help, and be helped by, a
complete stranger. (For any of you who are reading this, thank you
again.....).
Jezreel ni Taidhgain
the Far-Flung Fiddler of Mons Tonitrus
In article <384A2BD5...@pop.sttl.uswest.net>,
baird...@uswest.net wrote:
> My mother and I were talking recently about who were the
> five most evil people that have ever been in the SCA. We
> both agreed on Aonghais dubh Tarb as being in the #1 spot
> but disagreed on who should be on the rest of the list
>
> Thoughts?
>
> André
>
> PS If you are offended by this question, sorry
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Ted Eisenstein
is just too ridiculous for words. We must judge each other on our
personal merit, and that alone. Is a peer who never takes an associate
underserving of commendation merely for that reason? Is a fighter who
wears no favor for whatever reason a detriment to our Society? I
realize that you were trying to put forward a positive message, but mass
praise is as worthless as mass condemnation is unfair.<<
It was not knee-jerk, nor do I assume that we all deserve love, self-esteem,
respect, or any other quality. Nor do I assume that non-associate peers or
non-favored fighters (even if I had specified just fighters, which I did
not)
are undeserving of commendation. Nor would I ever suggest that such
groups of people are detrimental to the SCA, their kingdoms, their local
groups, themselves, and/or anyone or anything else.
I was simply saying that, in general, there were these certain groups
which I have found to be generally nice - nothing more, nothing less. They
are not necessarily Ideals, Perfection, Gods Who Walk the Face of the Earth,
High with Self-Esteem, or Extremely Lovable; I wanted to suggest they
were, to me, a Nice Bunch of People, in amongst other generally nice people.
And besides, who are you to rain on my parade, anyway? Pffffft!
<smile>
Alban
Dr JP Hrisoulas
knew this man..he was at one time a very dear freind. And sadly I was involved
in the banishment of him from Caid all those years ago.
This situation is sad, and he was a very charismatic and very likable man once
you got to know him. He used this to his own advantage many times and well, he
destroyed himself along with many others and I, (and I am sure others that knew
him well) would appreciate it if this thread would simply go away.
This was a very sad and tragic turn of events brought about by his own hand and
now he is paying the price. He was a friend and I miss the man that he once
was, but NOT what he had become.
Atar, Satrapp Bakhtar, OL
Dr JP Hrisoulas
Bladesmith Metallographer Lecturer
Author: The Complete Bladesmith
The Master Bladesmith
The Pattern Welded Blade
HCI: Dedicated to seeing a woman dead rather than alive, legally carrying a
handgun.
LtCol NVDoM
http:www.Atar.com
Chawee
>Why do we have so much trouble taking the high road. Why is NOT doing
>something so difficult? <sigh>
>
Human nature i would presume. If you were like me you thought of a list of
people instantly though would never put it here. <sigh>
Susan Carroll-Clark
Chawee wrote in message <19991205222929...@ng-da1.aol.com>...
I dunno. I never knew the Scottish Duke, and would be hard pressed to
describe anyone I've ever known in the SCA as "evil." Jerks, sure, and a
few downright a**holes. Lots of people I have philosophical differences
with, or just plain don't like. Several I've thought were bad influences,
and the SCA would probably be a better place without them. But not "evil."
Maybe I've just been lucky.
Nicolaa
Brianna Riordan
Baroness Alexandra de la Mer Vert for her never ending service
Duke Sven Gunnarson for his romance (ask An Tirans about his most wonderful
proposal to his Queen at Coronation)
Duchess Elina, for her incredible book on lady fighters
Lord Ulf von Griffenburg, for introducing me to the SCA by taking me to
Atenveldt's 50th Crown Tourney, even though I live in An Tir
And
Lord Leohtulf of the Silver Hills, just because he's "mine"
Brianna Riordan
Barony of Three Mountains
An Tir
Deykin ap Gwion
> >>>five most evil people that have ever been in the SCA. We
> >>>both agreed on Aonghais dubh Tarb as being in the #1 spot
> >>>but disagreed on who should be on the rest of the list
>
> so memorable, to satisfy my own curiosity, without insulting his friends OR
> his enemies?
That would probably be it.
Dennis O'Connor
> My mother and I were talking recently about who were the
> five most evil people that have ever been in the SCA. We
> both agreed on Aonghais dubh Tarb as being in the #1 spot
> but disagreed on who should be on the rest of the list
Me.
My wife.
Our friend "Gorilla Boy"
His wife.
So don't f-, uh, mess with us.
--
Dennis O'Connor dm...@primenet.com
Vanity Web Page http://www.primenet.com/~dmoc/
"My mommy says 'Evil is as Evil Does'." -- Florist Grump
JoAnn Abbott
on a well traveled path at Pennsic, right where my bare foot would meet it,
gets my vote.
I did learn never to go without shoes though. Not worth the nasty burn
and blister however.
Lady JoAnna S.T.
avan...@my-deja.com
or 'influential' people in the period the SCA covers?
We all might learn a thing or two!!!
Fiona
In article <384AB6F0...@indiana.edu>,
ajbr...@indiana.edu wrote:
> How about we switch this around, in the light of the season of
charity and
> hospitality?
>
> Who do you think were -- or are -- the five most positively
influential
> people in the SCA? (Omitting those at the First Backyard Party for
obvious
> "they started the whole thing" reasons, of course.)
>
Kate Wrightson
Susan Carroll-Clark <nicola...@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
>Hear, hear. I'd rather talk about inpirational people. So let's hear
>it--who has inspired you in the SCA? On a large scale, I very much admire
>Cariadoc's long-term role as a promoter of fun authenticity in the SCA.
Mine are people who share their knowledge selflessly with people they'll
never know, and they all happen to be Rialto folk. I'm thinking
specifically of you, Nicolaa, and of Cariadoc, Arval, Tibor, and Stefan li
Rous. Whether it's through copious and graceful posts, or through the
massive archives maintained on the Web, I know that I'll find a good and
true answer to just about any question if it's got one of those five names
on it.
--
___________________________________________________________________________
ka...@eyrie.org Kate Wrightson www.eyrie.org/~kate
Just another psycho bitch elf maiden, let loose on an unsuspecting USENET.
Please do not mail me copies of material posted to newsgroups.
gun...@my-deja.com
There are no evil people in the SCA. Every one who joins this
organization came here because something of it appealed to them, made
them dream a little, made them long to be more than they were. That
they are human, and fail to live up to their own expectations or to
ours is not evil, but simply a sign of being human.
Some people will touch lives in a good way. Some will not. But no one
considers themselves a villian.
Of course, there *is* the fact that Mistress Jehanne d'Avignon,
Mistress Mari ferch Rathyen, and myself are considered by some to be
the Triumvirate of Evil, or sometimes known as the three most evil
women in Ansteorra. ;-) You'd have to ask around to see who thinks
that we are the next coming of the Beast vs those who think we're cool
people.
There are plenty of people in the SCA that I disagree with. Sometimes
vehemently. I have a strong personality and I am quite outspoken. I
don't believe in letting a problem lie when a little confrontation will
clear it up. That's enough to have some people think I am the
Antichrist. Am I evil? There are some who probably think so. There
are others who think I'm a miracle worker. It evens out.
The trick in all cases is that if you will approach it in a business-
like manner, you can deal with anyone, no matter how unpleasant,
misguided, pig-headed, etc. They are not evil, they just don't see
things your way or act the way you want them to act.
If you considered posting to this thread and naming "evil people" have
you taken the time to go and speak to the person in question and ask
them to stop doing whatever it is that pisses you off? It's really
amazing how many times people in the SCA will decry so-and-so as being
"evil" when they have never even tried talking to the person or asking
them to behave better. Most people don't really want to walk around
with people disliking them or even hating them, and sometimes they're
not aware that people are upset about bad behavior. It is my firm
opinion, however, that if you complain about someone and haven't
bothered to complain to the malefactor themselves first, then you are
worse than they are. In that case, the word is not "evil", its
"hypocrite".
::GUNNORA::
Gunnora Hallakarva, OL
Ian Andrew Engle
She has had a greater impact on the SCA than I bet she ever
thought possible, by her own work and through the people she mentored.
--Sion (Hi, Mom!) Andreas
Ian Andrew Engle
I once aspired to be all five of the most evil people in the SCA,
thought that would be inspiring, but it turns out that it's way too much
hard work to be evil.
--Sion
Cumhail
>
>
> It is probably necessary to mention that both of the people convicted
> in the murder were SCA members. I won't mention the other name
> since I also regard the question above as both pointless and stupid.
>
Cumhail
Will Linden
>And to see if I can get anything useful out of the question, let me
>raise a point that I owe to C.S. Lewis (_Screwtape Letters_). The people
>who do damage, in the SCA or elsewhere, are not people who are wholly
>evil. Someone who lacked all virtues wouldn't be able to accomplish
>anything. Indeed, Lewis argues, existence itself is a virtue, so if the
>devil were wholly evil he would not even exist--let alone be courageous,
>intelligent, or resolute.
This has been orthodox theology for over a thousand
years. (St. Augustine, "Against the Foundation Epistle of Mani").
--
Will Linden wli...@panix.com
http://www.panix.com/~wlinden/
Magic Code: MAS/GD S++ W++ N+ PWM++ Ds/r+ A-> a++ C+ G- QO++ 666 Y
Will Linden
Easterling history,which included "Who was 'the Evil One'?"
An interesting pattern in responses was evident...
Old-timers: "Rakurrai" (The correct answer, as he is the one who was
actually called that... but that is another story, to be dealt with under
"5 Most Annoying People".)
Few years standing: "Angus"
Greenhorns: "Andreas de Vulpes".
"I will summon the six most evil men in England!.. Now, on to the
castle, to kill the royal family and claim the throne that isn't mine by
right!"
Z
Esther Heller
Ashland S Henderson wrote in message ...
>
Cariodoc of the Bow answered this question:
>>>
>>> Is there any way for me to ask who Aonghais dubh Tarb is/was, and why he
>>> is
>>> so memorable, to satisfy my own curiosity, without insulting his friends
>>> OR
>>> his enemies?
>>
And then Ashland said:
>It is probably necessary to mention that both of the people convicted
>in the murder were SCA members. I won't mention the other name
>since I also regard the question above as both pointless and stupid.
>
I don't think so, you have to remember how long a "generation"
in the SCA is. Anyone who is around for a while is going to trip
on this since it is part of the organizational history. I thought
the question was worded as gracefully as possible, and Duke Cariodoc's
answer one of the more regretful of the circumstances I have encountered.
It is kind of like someone who was angry about a question on the Rialto
a couple years ago about somebody suing the SCA. Yes if the person
who got hurt was in your family you would not care to be re-reminded
of it, but it is part of the history. It is far better to explain
that the insurance company required the suit than to have funny rumors
flying around.
So please explain to me why the question was pointless and stupid?
Would you rather have a clear public explanation or funky rumors?
(It should be obvious that I vote for the clear explanation, preferably
from someone able to grieve for the necessity).
Otelia d'Alsace
eoh at kodak dot com
Cumhail
>
>
> So please explain to me why the question was pointless and stupid?
> Would you rather have a clear public explanation or funky rumors?
> (It should be obvious that I vote for the clear explanation, preferably
> from someone able to grieve for the necessity).
>
The question that was being refered to, I believe, was the one
inquiring to everyone's opinion as to the 5 most evil people in the SCA.
I don't see any particular worth to it, myself. The question concerning
Aonghais wasn't the one being refered to as "pointless and stupid".
Bruce Mills
: Who do you think were -- or are -- the five most positively influential
: people in the SCA? (Omitting those at the First Backyard Party for obvious
: "they started the whole thing" reasons, of course.)
Cariadoc of the Bow. Too bad there's only one of him.
Akimoya
Ealdormere
Wm. Bryan Fountain
>
>My mother and I were talking recently about who were the
>both agreed on Aonghais dubh Tarb as being in the #1 spot
>but disagreed on who should be on the rest of the list
>
>
>André
I view the SCA as my family and as such I cannot view any one member as being
evil. Tht is not how one deals with family - They can embarrass us or enrage
us but that should be temporary. We must realize that for us to grow there
will be bumps and setbacks along the road - that is life. Let us not point
fingers and shout angry insults at each other. Instead we should glorify that
which we admire and respect in order to promote it. That which we regret
having happed, will always have happened. The past cannot be changed, and as
such we must move on. Let us rember the past in order to not repeat it - but
dont lose sleep over it. If we wish for others to become enlighted then let
us stive all the harder to show them the way by our own actions. Mud slinging
will not help them change, rather is helps us to change and become more like
them
Ld Brun Canutteson formerly of Atlantia (Shire of Crannog Mor)
Presently in In the Middle of nowhere -Somewhere in the Middle Kingdom
MKA - Wm. Bryan Fountain
Asst. Professor of Industrial Technology
Sauk Valley Community College
Dixon, IL
Bryan J. Maloney
> My mother and I were talking recently about who were the
> five most evil people that have ever been in the SCA. We
> both agreed on Aonghais dubh Tarb as being in the #1 spot
> but disagreed on who should be on the rest of the list
>
> Thoughts?
I think that even I won't touch this one.
--
Whatever the reasons, which are no doubt complex, the
American public seem to believe that science is socially
and economically valuable, whereas the majority of the
British public seem to believe that scientists only take a
break from torturing animals to plot ever more devious ways
of undermining the great British way of life.
-----Dr. Jordan Raff
Josh Mittleman
Nonsense. If there are evil people in the world, then there are certainly
some of 'em in the Society.
Arval
Bronwynmgn
lives on volunteer work and that we should all be helping out - not just at
events run by our own groups, but at all events. And that everyone, regardless
of their rank, should be helping out.
For those of you who don't know him, Duke Timothy and whichever of his (male)
squires and household are present, at any event (even when he was King), strip
to the waist after feast and scrub pots in the kitchen. If a meeting or
something requires His Grace's attention immediately after feast, he will ask
that dishes be left for him to do.
Not only is it helpful, the ladies who make up the majority of the kitchen
crews get a visula reward as well!
Brangwayna Morgan
Bronwynmgn
<jo...@theriver.com> writes:
>I don't know who it was, but the jerk who dropped a burning cigarette butt
>on a well traveled path at Pennsic, right where my bare foot would meet it,
>gets my vote.
That's not evil. It's rude, discourteous, unthinking, stupid, and any of a
number of other adjectives, but not evil.
Brangwayna
wolverton
Dennis O'Connor <dm...@primenet.com> wrote in message
news:82fnsn$gen$1...@nnrp02.primenet.com...
> > My mother and I were talking recently about who were the
> > five most evil people that have ever been in the SCA. We
> > both agreed on Aonghais dubh Tarb as being in the #1 spot
> > but disagreed on who should be on the rest of the list
>
> My wife.
> Our friend "Gorilla Boy"
> His wife.
>
> So don't f-, uh, mess with us.
Ok, Ok, i can't pass this one up. I was going to propose our own Dennis
O'Connor as the most evil person in the SCA (although I'm suprised I didn't
make his list..8->) But he beat me to it!
For the benefit of the more reactionary persons here let me say that the
above is more of a light hearted jab than a full fledged flame...
And seriously there are lots of evil people in the SCA (and in the whole
world for that matter..) They are called liberals.
"Freidrich von Magdeburg"
has it really been a year since I posted here? I never would have even seen
this thread if it had not been pointed out to me by a friend. It's good to
be back....
Bill Toscano
the Mountain (eastern Connecticut) passed away.
My heart still bleeds at times when I think about him, but I smile when I
see a topic like this new one, and I am able to think of Cadell.
First and foremost, he "played the game" perfectly. He was courteous and
chivalrous to all and in his opinion and actions he always weighed the
effects his words and actions would have on other people.
He was as open, charming and welcoming to the newest member of the SCA as he
was to the most grizzled of masters. In the five-plus years I was fortunate
enough to know him, I never heard him say a negative word about anyone. And
believe me, there were plenty of people around who he could have blasted. He
worked as hard as anyone and fun reflected off him like light off a mirror.
He counseled me. He taught me.
I miss him.
Liam St. Liam
Barony Beyond the Mountain
East Kingdom
jezreel...@my-deja.com
> I see that you still found it necessary to mention something,
tho.
>
> Cumhail
>
> --
Jezreel
Brianna Riordan
She is one of the most beloved Baronesses in our Kingdom, unless this is some
other Andre. I can't even IMAGINE what Baroness Amanda thinks to Andre's
posting.
Hall
Wm. Bryan Fountain <wbfou...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
<I view the SCA as my family and as such I cannot view any one member as
being evil. Tht is not how one deals with family - They can embarrass us
or enrage us but that should be temporary.>
Loyalty to ones family is admerable only up to the point where it becomes
blind and slavish. If someone in my family did something so horid as to be
unforgivable (for example if they were to kill or seriously injure a child
intentionaly) I assure you my embarrassment and outrage would NOT be
temporary.
Angel Sparrow
Can I put my own name forward?
Not anything as grandiose as a member of
"the Triumvirate of Evil" as one lady has said.
Just an amusing Lilies War Story. Of many years gone.
Late one evening, in the grand pavillion,
a certain lord was making a number of advances
on me. I was not offended, far from it. Flattered rather.
Anyway, we talked, and he announced he was a black magician.
My response was "Really? How interesting." To make
a long story short, the moment he tried to kiss me,
he got a nosebleed, prompting much concern.
"Oh, no big, milday. I always get them in the presence of
evil. Wait, you're the only one here. Are you evil?"
I laughed cruelly and said "You've really got to
watch us succubui. Not good for your health. Ha! Some
magician!"
He made a rather hasty retreat. And explaining the
blood all over my tunic to my friends and mother was quite the feat.
Angel/Aethelynde, who proudly displays
an "Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow" license frame
jezreel...@my-deja.com
with you on this.
Jezreel
In article <82hajl$vj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
gun...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > André baird...@uswest.net wrote:
> > My mother and I were talking recently about who were the
Bryan J. Maloney
> > I see that you still found it necessary to mention something,
> tho.
> >
> > Cumhail
Ah, so, then warning people that a topic is something so low that even I
won't touch it is a bad thing--oh, wait, you're one of my Net Groupies!
--
"NASA": From the Attic Greek for "oopsie".
Ashland S Henderson
Esther Heller wrote in message <82gt5u$8le$1...@news.news.kodak.com>...
>
>Ashland S Henderson wrote in message ...
>>
>
>Cariodoc of the Bow answered this question:
>
>>>>
>>>> Is there any way for me to ask who Aonghais dubh Tarb is/was, and why
he
>>>> is
>>>> so memorable, to satisfy my own curiosity, without insulting his
friends
>>>> OR
>>>> his enemies?
>>>
>
>
>And then Ashland said:
>
>>It is probably necessary to mention that both of the people convicted
>>in the murder were SCA members. I won't mention the other name
>>since I also regard the question above as both pointless and stupid.
>>
>
>
>I don't think so, you have to remember how long a "generation"
>in the SCA is. Anyone who is around for a while is going to trip
>on this since it is part of the organizational history. I thought
>the question was worded as gracefully as possible, and Duke Cariodoc's
>answer one of the more regretful of the circumstances I have encountered.
While I approve of Cariodoc's answer, I regard the question as pointless
because it is the sort of question that cannot be answered and stupid
because it stirred up bad memories for all concerned. In retrospect,
thoughtless would probably be better than stupid.
>It is kind of like someone who was angry about a question on the Rialto
>a couple years ago about somebody suing the SCA. Yes if the person
>who got hurt was in your family you would not care to be re-reminded
>of it, but it is part of the history. It is far better to explain
>that the insurance company required the suit than to have funny rumors
>flying around.
I don't see that your paragraph above has anything much to do with
my comment. Sorry, but I simply don't make a logical connection
between them. The question related to the most evil person in the
SCA and I wished to point out that Anghious wasn't the only one. You
may note that I didn't, and won't, name the other one. He mostly doesn't
figure in all the resentments since he never attained signifigent rank in
the SCA.
>So please explain to me why the question was pointless and stupid?
>Would you rather have a clear public explanation or funky rumors?
>(It should be obvious that I vote for the clear explanation, preferably
>from someone able to grieve for the necessity).
Oddly enough, I also grieve for the necessity. My answer, however,
related to the original question, not the discussion of Anghois.
Andrew Smith
"Esther Heller" <mun...@kodak.com> wrote:
>...you have to remember how long a "generation"
>in the SCA is. Anyone who is around for a while is going to trip
>on this since it is part of the organizational history. I thought
>the question was worded as gracefully as possible, and Duke Cariodoc's
>answer one of the more regretful of the circumstances I have encountered.
>
>It is kind of like someone who was angry about a question on the Rialto
>a couple years ago about somebody suing the SCA. Yes if the person
>who got hurt was in your family you would not care to be re-reminded
>of it, but it is part of the history. It is far better to explain
>that the insurance company required the suit than to have funny rumors
>flying around...
The entire story is well documented in the book, "The Wrong Man," by (if
memory serves) Karl Davis, or Kevin Davis, or something close.
Andrew Smith
Duke Andrew of Riga
California
Elizabeth
My list of five...
Diana Paxson, who gave us birthplace....
Marion Zimmer Bradley, who named the baby...
Milord Cariadoc, who helped us grow in wisdom...
My dear friends in Bright Hills, who helped me see it could be FUN again...
And the un-named others who act in service to the Dream.
Aurelia
Heather Murphy
>>>>> Is there any way for me to ask who Aonghais dubh Tarb is/was, and why
>he
>>>>> is
>>>>> so memorable, to satisfy my own curiosity, without insulting his
>friends
>>>>> OR
>>>>> his enemies?
>>>>
>>
>>
>>And then Ashland said:
>>
>>>It is probably necessary to mention that both of the people convicted
>>>in the murder were SCA members. I won't mention the other name
>>>since I also regard the question above as both pointless and stupid.
>>>
>>
>>
>While I approve of Cariodoc's answer, I regard the question as pointless
>because it is the sort of question that cannot be answered and stupid
>because it stirred up bad memories for all concerned. In retrospect,
>thoughtless would probably be better than stupid.
>
Thank you, Duke Sir Cariodoc, for explaining what happened, and for doing it
in the tactful and thoughtful way I've come to associate with you on this
group, though we've never had the opportunity to meet in person.
I object to my question being called pointless, stupid, and thoughtless.
The Society lives on oral history, on the stories of its past. One of the
responsibilities of a newer member, surely, is to learn some of these
stories from the society's history?
Aonghais was brought up in this public forum as an example of evil (the
discussion of the nature of good and evil that followed, I won't get into at
the moment), but no details of his history were given. I had never heard of
this man. I defend my right to ask for clarification.
Certainly, this sounds like it was a terrible thing, both for his friends
and for the society, but should it be made a thing to never speak of? If we
try to erase the ugly parts of our past, and only remember the best and most
beautiful, how are we better than any other censors?
I never heard about Vietnam in school, because it was an ugly moment in
American history, and it was decided that it should be forgotten. I don't
think this made me any wiser or better.
Jemma Blakeney
Trevor Barker
>Ok, Ok, i can't pass this one up. I was going to propose our own Dennis
>O'Connor as the most evil person in the SCA (although I'm suprised I
didn't
>make his list..8->) But he beat me to it!
>For the benefit of the more reactionary persons here let me say that the
>above is more of a light hearted jab than a full fledged flame...
>
>And seriously there are lots of evil people in the SCA (and in the whole
>world for that matter..) They are called liberals.
>
>"Freidrich von Magdeburg"
Are you sure? Aren't they misguided rather than evil? I would have thought
that to be evil one would have to intend to do harm.
If it's as sinful to think about killing someone as to actually perform the
deed (personally, I doubt this, but I wouldn't want to be branded as a
heretic) then the corollary must be that to kill someone without intending
to do so is not sinful. (It might be sinful not to have taken steps to avoid
the situation, but I don't know enough Theology to be able to guage God's
opinion on negligence.)
I would have thought that most of the evil people in history were supposedly
representing some deity or other.
Then again, who can tell? If I were to kill a gunman to prevent his
murdering a classful of children, would that be evil? By the same token, if
an Inquisitor burns a heretic to prevent his causing the damnation of the
souls of thousands of people, that should be regarded as a very good act -
provided the Inquisitor doesn't fall prey to the sins of wrath or pride.
Trevor.
--
These are my opinions, not necessarily Logica's.
sheriff (at) weylea (dot) demon.co.uk
BeteNoir
Anthony J. Bryant
>
> Aonghais was brought up in this public forum as an example of evil (the
> discussion of the nature of good and evil that followed, I won't get into at
> the moment), but no details of his history were given. I had never heard of
> this man. I defend my right to ask for clarification.
Again, you're missing the point. The "stupid question" was the original "Who's
evil?" post, not yours.
Relax.
Effingham
Ciarrai
David Friedman <dd...@best.com> wrote in message
news:ddfr-F8AABC.1...@nntp1.ba.best.com...
> Part of the verdict of his first court of chivalry was an abatement to
> his arms (for the offense of deliberately lying to his people when he
> was king). He got the news that the Board of Directors (for reasons I do
> not know) had cancelled the verdict of that court before the tournament
> in which he won his second crown. He left the abatement on the shield
> until after the tournament was over--I believe on the grounds that he
> was guilty of the offense, and so deserved at least that much punishment.
> --
> David/Cariadoc
> http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html
Tom Holt
from "Trevor Barker" <bar...@delete.logica.com> contains these words:
> I would have thought
> that to be evil one would have to intend to do harm.
The definition of harm is notoriously flexible; consider also a whole
sub-genre of proverbs and maxims along the lines of "the end
justifies the means", "you can't make omelettes without breaking
eggs" etc, which assure us that a little harm in a good cause can
easily be overlooked.
- And often the end does justify the means, and often you have to do
a little harm in order to achieve an objective universally regarded
as beneficial.
That said; if in your view, the intention to do harm *as an end in
itself* is an essential part of the definition of evil, I must
disagree with you. A great many people who do what most of us would
class as evil do so sincerely believing that they're actively doing
good. Hitler sincerely believed that he was doing what was best for
Germany. The terrorist planting a bomb in a crowded mall is convinced
of the righteousness of his cause.The serial killer who murders
prostitutes seriously believes he's doing God's work. And, of course,
the liberal who tramples on the rights and freedoms of others
believes he's helping to create the ideal society.
> I would have thought that most of the evil people in history were supposedly
> representing some deity or other.
A substantial overstatement; however, I wouldn't argue with the
proposition that a very substantial proportion of the evil people in
history were idealists of one sort or another; religion being,
admittedly, one of the more frequently encountered idealisms.
People who care only about themselves, or who don't care at all, do a
lot of harm, but generally on a small scale. The urge to do good, on
the other hand, to make the world a better place, to force others
down the true path to salvation, to ram one's own perceptions of
right and wrong down the throat of one's neighbour is, IMHO, the most
pernicious trait of human nature - worse even than greed or
selfishness or indifference to the misfortunes of others - simply
because it had started more wars and caused more suffering and death
than any other human tendency. If humanity wipes itself out, it'll be
because somebody cared too much.
jhh...@execpc.com
the 'evil' list.
Ian
wolverton wrote:
> Dennis O'Connor <dm...@primenet.com> wrote in message
> news:82fnsn$gen$1...@nnrp02.primenet.com...
> > > My mother and I were talking recently about who were the
> > > five most evil people that have ever been in the SCA. We
> > > both agreed on Aonghais dubh Tarb as being in the #1 spot
> > > but disagreed on who should be on the rest of the list
> >
> > Me.
> > My wife.
> > Our friend "Gorilla Boy"
> > His wife.
> >
> > So don't f-, uh, mess with us.
>
> Ok, Ok, i can't pass this one up. I was going to propose our own Dennis
> O'Connor as the most evil person in the SCA (although I'm suprised I didn't
> make his list..8->) But he beat me to it!
> For the benefit of the more reactionary persons here let me say that the
> above is more of a light hearted jab than a full fledged flame...
>
> And seriously there are lots of evil people in the SCA (and in the whole
> world for that matter..) They are called liberals.
>
> "Freidrich von Magdeburg"
>
David Friedman
<ker...@email.msn.com> wrote:
> Please pardon my ignorance, but what is an "abatement to his arms"?
An addition to his device worn as a badge of shame. Perhaps one of the
heralds can provide a more precise definition.
--
David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html
trench...@my-deja.com
jhh...@execpc.com embarrassed himself on an international level by
spewing...
> If Rush Limbaugh or Pat Buchanan ever joined the SCA I'd put them at
the top of
> the 'evil' list.
>
> Ian
Well, since my politics are a bit to right of either of these
gentlemen, I suppose I just made your "hate list" as well...8->
BTW is Rush still around? I haven't listened to him in years.
"Freidrich von Magdeburg"
and yes, this is my other account. So you will see posts from both the
dejanews thing and my "Wolverton" name. Both are me.
"The prisoner is a slave of the state; a non person
with no inherit rights..."
Texas Supreme Court Decision, late 19th century
Arval d'Espas Nord
Greetings from Arval! Cariadoc wrote:
> > Please pardon my ignorance, but what is an "abatement to his arms"?
>
> An addition to his device worn as a badge of shame. Perhaps one of the
> heralds can provide a more precise definition.
That's a fine definition. The notion of an "abatement of arms" appears in
English heraldic tracts after (and perhaps at the end of) our period.
English heraldists developed a complicated system for displaying various
sorts of shameful behavior in one's arms. As far as I know, there is no
evidence that they ever existed outside of English heraldic theory.
Continental heraldists treated them as an absurdity, and modern heraldic
texts mention them only as a curiosity.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mit...@panix.com
micaylah
Bruce Mills wrote:
> Anthony J. Bryant (ajbr...@indiana.edu) wrote:
>
> : Who do you think were -- or are -- the five most positively influential
> : people in the SCA? (Omitting those at the First Backyard Party for obvious
> : "they started the whole thing" reasons, of course.)
>
And Akimoya piped in with...
> Cariadoc of the Bow. Too bad there's only one of him.
And I definately second that.
Micaylah
Ealdormere
Will Linden
>Greetings from Arval! Cariadoc wrote:
>> > Please pardon my ignorance, but what is an "abatement to his arms"?
>>
>> An addition to his device worn as a badge of shame. Perhaps one of the
>> heralds can provide a more precise definition.
>That's a fine definition. The notion of an "abatement of arms" appears in
>English heraldic tracts after (and perhaps at the end of) our period.
>English heraldists developed a complicated system for displaying various
>sorts of shameful behavior in one's arms. As far as I know, there is no
>evidence that they ever existed outside of English heraldic theory.
>Continental heraldists treated them as an absurdity, and modern heraldic
>texts mention them only as a curiosity.
One of the earlier issues of THE COAT OF ARMS quotes a Lyon ruling...
"Q: Whether the petitioner [divorced] was a virtuous and well-deserving
person within the meaning of the act?
"A: that he was, but he must abate it with a gusset sanguine."
Perhaps this is still not enough for you. But anyone connected would
certainly resent being told it was ENGLISH heralic theory.
--
Will Linden wli...@panix.com
http://www.panix.com/~wlinden/
Magic Code: MAS/GD S++ W++ N+ PWM++ Ds/r+ A-> a++ C+ G- QO++ 666 Y
Will Linden
>In article <384f0701$0$44...@news.execpc.com>,
> jhh...@execpc.com embarrassed himself on an international level by
>spewing...
>> If Rush Limbaugh or Pat Buchanan ever joined the SCA I'd put them at
>the top of
>> the 'evil' list.
>>
>> Ian
>.--
>Well, since my politics are a bit to right of either of these
>gentlemen, I suppose I just made your "hate list" as well...8->
>BTW is Rush still around? I haven't listened to him in years.
Good thing those "liberals" aren't prejudiced like us nasty bigots....
>and yes, this is my other account. So you will see posts from both the
>dejanews thing and my "Wolverton" name. Both are me.
>"The prisoner is a slave of the state; a non person
>with no inherit rights..."
>Texas Supreme Court Decision, late 19th century
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
Brian M. Scott
> <82okr9$po9$1...@panix5.panix.com> mit...@panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord) writes:
[...]
> >That's a fine definition. The notion of an "abatement of arms" appears in
> >English heraldic tracts after (and perhaps at the end of) our period.
> >English heraldists developed a complicated system for displaying various
> >sorts of shameful behavior in one's arms. As far as I know, there is no
> >evidence that they ever existed outside of English heraldic theory.
> >Continental heraldists treated them as an absurdity, and modern heraldic
> >texts mention them only as a curiosity.
> One of the earlier issues of THE COAT OF ARMS quotes a Lyon ruling...
> "Q: Whether the petitioner [divorced] was a virtuous and well-deserving
> person within the meaning of the act?
> "A: that he was, but he must abate it with a gusset sanguine."
> Perhaps this is still not enough for you. But anyone connected would
> certainly resent being told it was ENGLISH heralic theory.
'English and Scottish' would have been preferable, but an argument could
be made that in many ways Scottish theory is merely English theory taken
to an extreme!
On the point at issue Friar notes that Brooke-Little (as editor of the
1983 version of Boutell's Heraldry) confirms that 'there is no such
thing as a mark of dishonour in English heraldry'. Friar s.v. Abatement
goes on to note:
A recent Scottish matriculation included a gusset
sanguine as an abatement for adultery, though this
is unique in Scottish armory. No Scottish heraldic
author has so far even bothered to list abatement
in indices.
The article also mentions a possible French example, but it appears to
me to be questionable.
Brian M. Scott
Angel Sparrow
trench...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> In article <384f0701$0$44...@news.execpc.com>,
> jhh...@execpc.com embarrassed himself on an international level by
> spewing...
> > If Rush Limbaugh or Pat Buchanan ever joined the SCA I'd put them at
> the top of
> > the 'evil' list.
> >
> > Ian
> .--
I don't see either of them doing it.
Pitchfork Pat would be put off
by all the "perverts and pagans." (Same
reason my husband quit)
Rush's head won't fit through the troll booth.
Sorry, gratuitous jab.
> Well, since my politics are a bit to right of either of these
> gentlemen, I suppose I just made your "hate list" as well...8->
I don't hate you. I'm rightish in many ways:
comes of being a white midwestern Christian small town
woman, with children.
I mean, I got the life my mother
wanted (and she grew up in the 50's).
> BTW is Rush still around? I haven't listened to him in years.
he's still around. And much less interesting than I remembered.
Caught the show today, for about 3 minutes, before switching
to the Classic Rock station.
Aethelynde/Angel
Chawee
>the top of
>> the 'evil' list.
>>
>> Ian
>Well, since my politics are a bit to right of either of these
>gentlemen, I suppose I just made your "hate list" as well...8->
Add me to that list also <sigh>
jk
>:
>:> BTW is Rush still around? I haven't listened to him in years.
>:
>:he's still around. And much less interesting than I remembered.
>:Caught the show today, for about 3 minutes, before switching
>:to the Classic Rock station.
>:
>:Aethelynde/Angel
The first few times I heard him, I thought it was a comedy act that
had a hard time getting to thnepunch line.
trench...@my-deja.com
vala...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Aethelynde here
> >
> > > Ian
> > .--
>
> I don't see either of them doing it.
>
> Pitchfork Pat would be put off
> by all the "perverts and pagans." (Same
> reason my husband quit)
>
> Rush's head won't fit through the troll booth.
> Sorry, gratuitous jab.
Booooo hisss.......low blow. Hehehe
>
> > Well, since my politics are a bit to right of either of these
> > gentlemen, I suppose I just made your "hate list" as well...8->
>
> I don't hate you. I'm rightish in many ways:
> comes of being a white midwestern Christian small town
> woman, with children.
>
> I mean, I got the life my mother
> wanted (and she grew up in the 50's).
>
Then we have more common ground than I suspected at first. Wll met
then.
"Freidrich von Magdeburg"
.--
Richard Tucker
>
> In article <384f0701$0$44...@news.execpc.com>,
> jhh...@execpc.com embarrassed himself on an international level by
> spewing...
> the top of
> > the 'evil' list.
> >
> > Ian
>
> Well, since my politics are a bit to right of either of these
> gentlemen, I suppose I just made your "hate list" as well...8->
>
Conservative wouldn't be caught dead in one of those gawdoffal ties!
Barry Goldwater, now there's a Conservative. "Extremeism in defense of
liberty is no vice."
Chris and Elisabeth Zakes
causedtre...@my-deja.com to write:
>In article <384f0701$0$44...@news.execpc.com>,
> jhh...@execpc.com embarrassed himself on an international level by
>spewing...
>> If Rush Limbaugh or Pat Buchanan ever joined the SCA I'd put them at
>the top of
>> the 'evil' list.
>>
>> Ian
>.--
>
>Well, since my politics are a bit to right of either of these
>gentlemen, I suppose I just made your "hate list" as well...8->
On the one hand, why does "disagree with" have to be synonymous with
"hate"?
On the other hand, why are we discussing late 20th century political
figures *here*?
-Tivar Moondragon
Ansteorra
elie...@webtv.net
>Continental heraldists treated them
>as an absurdity, and modern
>heraldic texts mention them only
>as a curiosity.
If someone receives an abatement, what's to stop him from simply not
displaying his arms at all? That's what I would do. If no one sees
your arms, no one knows you've been shamed.
In the SCA, is an abatement for life, like an augmentation, or is it for
a specified amount of time, like a banishment?
--Elfrida
Parvulus enim natus est nobis filius datus est nobis et
factus est principatus super umerum eius et vocabitur nomen
eius Admirabilis consiliarius Deus fortis Pater futuri saeculi Princeps
pacis
Isaiah 9 : 6
mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu
>wolvie wrote:
>>somebody wrote:
>>> If Rush Limbaugh or Pat Buchanan ever joined the SCA I'd put them at
>>> the top of the 'evil' list.
>>>
>>> Ian
>>Well, since my politics are a bit to right of either of these
>>gentlemen, I suppose I just made your "hate list" as well...8->
>Add me to that list also <sigh>
I can't speak to the original author but the reason I dispise Limbaugh
and Buchanan has to do with their lack of intellectual honesty (among
other things).
I disagree with lots of people, Limbaugh, Buchanan and Dworkin make me
retch. Members of the KKK tend to be slimier but also stupider and
more ignorant so while they also make me retch I am hesitant to put
them in the same catagory.
Robert
jhh...@execpc.com
going to let it stand. I just wanted to show that the sword cut both ways.
back on topic: For a while there, in the Middle Kingdon, the name Michael
of Boarshaven rang a few bells on the evil side. He was King, he abdicated
under some pressure. I can't get a straight story as to what happened, but
it must have been bad. If anyone can fill in the details, I'd like to
know.
Ian
Chris and Elisabeth Zakes wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Dec 1999 19:06:21 GMT, an orbiting mind-control laser
> causedtre...@my-deja.com to write:
>
> >In article <384f0701$0$44...@news.execpc.com>,
> > jhh...@execpc.com embarrassed himself on an international level by
> >spewing...
> >> If Rush Limbaugh or Pat Buchanan ever joined the SCA I'd put them at
> >the top of
> >> the 'evil' list.
> >>
> >> Ian
> >.--
> >
> >Well, since my politics are a bit to right of either of these
> >gentlemen, I suppose I just made your "hate list" as well...8->
>
mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu
[]
>Are you sure? Aren't they misguided rather than evil? I would have thought
>that to be evil one would have to intend to do harm.
"Evil", very difficult concept.
>If it's as sinful to think about killing someone as to actually
>perform the deed
I don't believe that the Bible, or the Church, supports that position.
I think it is very reasonable to say that it is sinful to seriously
consider committing murder, but not "as sinful".
>then the corollary must be that to kill someone without intending
>to do so is not sinful.
This I am less clear on. I think it depends on the circumstances.
>I would have thought that most of the evil people in history were
>supposedly representing some deity or other.
Certainly there were Roman rulers who would fit that model but what
about Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Ghengas Khan? None of these represented
any deity that I am aware of. I would without reservation put
Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot in any top 20 list of evil people.
>Then again, who can tell? If I were to kill a gunman to prevent his
>murdering a classful of children, would that be evil?
Certainly there are circumstances in which killing another human being
is considered justifiable.
>By the same token, if an Inquisitor burns a heretic to prevent his
>causing the damnation of the souls of thousands of people, that
>should be regarded as a very good act -
Here we run into the difference between the Old Testiment and the New
Testiment. Much of the Old Testiment deals with how to run a religious
nation. The New Testiment seems to leave the punishment of religious
matters to the Final Judgement, it is concerned with individuals and
life within the Church. I don't believe it justifies forcing others
to be within the Church.
Counter-preaching against a heretic is certainly justifiable. If that
person poses a very great threat then perhaps imprisonment would be
justified. Given how much time Paul and various other Christians
spent in jail I would think that any such imprisonment should not be
unnecessarily harsh.
But killing? I'm not sure I see the justification.
Robert the Pilegrim
running back and forth between medieval and modern viewpoints.
jhh...@execpc.com
make me evil?
Ian.
Chawee wrote:
> >> If Rush Limbaugh or Pat Buchanan ever joined the SCA I'd put them at
> >the top of
> >> the 'evil' list.
> >>
> >> Ian
>
> >Well, since my politics are a bit to right of either of these
> >gentlemen, I suppose I just made your "hate list" as well...8->
>
mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu
>Chris and Elisabeth Zakes wrote:
>> On the other hand, why are we discussing late 20th century political
>> figures *here*?
>Because the Conservative indulged in a bit of Liberal bashing and I wasn't
>going to let it stand. I just wanted to show that the sword cut both ways.
<a quick check at dejanews...>
Ahhh, my server missed your original post. Having read it I understand
where you were coming from. However, I will say that had you editted
your original post so that FVM's comment:
>>>>And seriously there are lots of evil people in the SCA (and in the
>>>>whole world for that matter..) They are called liberals.
was close to your comment:
>>> If Rush Limbaugh or Pat Buchanan ever joined the SCA I'd put them at
>>> the top of the 'evil' list.
It would have been easier to figure out what was going on.
Robert the Pilegrim
Arval d'Espas Nord
Greetings from Arval! Elfrida asked:
> > In the SCA, is an abatement for life, like an augmentation, or is it for
> > a specified amount of time, like a banishment?
There are no rules defining their use. I have only ever heard of one
abatement used in the Society, the one mentioned here. The index to the
Organizational Handbook (the volume that contains Corpora) says "Abatement
of Arms--no reference; the custom seems to be out of period, and the
Society does not use it." The only comments on them I find in College of
Arms documents are mention of some research on the subject and a statement
that they are not used in Society heraldry, all in 1971, and a
pronouncement in 1980 that the term "debased" should not be used in Society
blazons because it was an abatement. East Kingdom mention abatements as
one sanction that could be imposed by a court of chivalry; several
Brigantia Principal Heralds have tried to convince the Crown to delete that
clause.
Brock replied:
> Banishments are *not* for a specified amount of time.
That is incorrect. Nearly all banishments are for a specified amount of
time, usually the duration of the reign of the royalty that imposed the
banishment. Only absolute banishment can be permanent and then only when
confirmed by the Board of Directors.
LBT
<mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu> wrote:
> I can't speak to the original author but the reason I dispise Limbaugh
> and Buchanan has to do with their lack of intellectual honesty (among
> other things).
>
> I disagree with lots of people, Limbaugh, Buchanan and Dworkin make me
> retch. Members of the KKK tend to be slimier but also stupider and
> more ignorant so while they also make me retch I am hesitant to put
> them in the same catagory.
>
> Robert
My, you are leading with your chin here, Robert. Hypocrasy knows no
political bounds. But rather than produce an lengthy list of the
intellectually dishonest from the left, from the Oval Office to a
certain local city councilman, I will forbear and continue to repeat to
myself:
It's an SCA newsgroup, not a political one...
It's an SCA newsgroup, not a political one...
It's an SCA newsgroup, not a political one...
Okay, I feel better now.
Alexander
Ty Brydon
Dworkin make me retch. Members of the KKK tend to be slimier but also
stupider and more ignorant so while they also make me retch I am
and:
"Certainly there were Roman rulers who would fit that model but what
about Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Ghengas Khan? None of these represented
any deity that I am aware of. I would without reservation put Hitler,
Stalin and Pol Pot in any top 20 list of evil people."snip
Isn't there a local theory that a thread loses all relevance once Hitler
has been cited, and dies quickly? I hope that's true. Looks like Robert
added Stalin, Pol Pot and even the KKK just to make sure. Granted, it's
easy to identify the subject and avoid the thread, but I wonder how many
people out there form their opinions of the SCA while reading this type
of off-topic exchange.
I would suggest that ranking anybody on a scale according to "evilness"
only glorifies those traits that we all supposedly resist.
Lothar
Craig Levin
Arval d'Espas Nord <mit...@panix.com> wrote:
>That's a fine definition. The notion of an "abatement of arms" appears in
>English heraldic tracts after (and perhaps at the end of) our period.
>English heraldists developed a complicated system for displaying various
>sorts of shameful behavior in one's arms. As far as I know, there is no
>evidence that they ever existed outside of English heraldic theory.
>Continental heraldists treated them as an absurdity, and modern heraldic
>texts mention them only as a curiosity.
Actually, I did a little research on the subject. There is quite
a lot of evidence that reversal of arms was used in the
fourteenth and fifteenth centuries as a punishment and a mockery
in Keen's Laws of War in the Late Middle Ages. I wrote a webpage,
partially on abatements, partially on augmentations:
http://pages.ripco.net/~clevin/abate.html .
In Service,
Dom Pedro de Alcazar
Barony of Storvik, Atlantia
Drakkar Pursuivant
Argent a tower purpure between 3 bunches of grapes proper
--
http://pages.ripco.net/~clevin/index.html
cle...@rci.ripco.com
Craig Levin
mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu
>> I can't speak to the original author but the reason I dispise Limbaugh
>> and Buchanan has to do with their lack of intellectual honesty (among
>> other things).
>> I disagree with lots of people, Limbaugh, Buchanan and Dworkin make me
>> retch. Members of the KKK tend to be slimier but also stupider and
>> more ignorant so while they also make me retch I am hesitant to put
>> them in the same catagory.
>> Robert
>My, you are leading with your chin here, Robert. Hypocrasy knows no
>political bounds.
Oh goody, do you mean the right wing is claiming Dworkin?!?
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!
That is (almost) enough to make me kiss Limbaugh in gratitude.
You're right, I should have evened it out a bit more ... Nader maybe?
(Elected politicians are too easy, I was trying to hit commentators
and such.)
Including the KKK was a specific dig at one of the participants of this
mud slinging match that I put in without thinking about evening things
out. I can certainly come up with liberal groups that fit with Limbaugh
et al but none that can really be compared to KKK.
How can I say what I was trying to say a little more clearly without
tossing more fuel into the fire ...
I disagree with lots of people based on their politics, but would still
eat dinner with them.
OTOH there are some people with whom I would avoid riding a bus even
if I agreed with their politics.
If anybody wants to discuss, feel free to send an email, I am signing off
this particular subthread.
Robert
Dark...@webtv.net
positive .
"Z"
Chawee
>Well actually, you were adding me to yours. Liberal? Guilty. Does that
>make me evil?
>
>Ian.
>
You, my friend seemed to have started the list. Are you evil? Only the Shadow
knows!
mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu
cha...@aol.com (Chawee) writes:
>jhh...@execpc.com wrote:
Dejanews is our friend...
From the beginning
wolverton/trenchraider/"Freidrich von Magdeburg" wrote:
>>>>>>And seriously there are lots of evil people in the SCA (and in the
>>>>>>whole world for that matter..) They are called liberals.
Ian wrote:
>>>>>If Rush Limbaugh or Pat Buchanan ever joined the SCA I'd put them at
>>>>>the top of the 'evil' list.
wolverton/trenchraider/"Freidrich von Magdeburg" wrote:
>>>>Well, since my politics are a bit to right of either of these
>>>>gentlemen, I suppose I just made your "hate list" as well...8->
Chawee wrote:
>>> Add me to that list also <sigh>
Ian wrote:
>>Well actually, you were adding me to yours. Liberal? Guilty. Does that
>>make me evil?
Chawee wrote:
>You, my friend seemed to have started the list. Are you evil? Only the
>Shadow knows!
Elsewhere Ian has written:
]Because the Conservative indulged in a bit of Liberal bashing and I wasn't
]going to let it stand. I just wanted to show that the sword cut both ways.
Robert
Brian M. Scott
> "Trevor Barker" <bar...@delete.logica.com> writes:
[...]
> >I would have thought that most of the evil people in history were
> >supposedly representing some deity or other.
> Certainly there were Roman rulers who would fit that model but what
> about Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Ghengas Khan? [...]
What on earth is the estimable Chinggiz doing in this list?!
Talan
Michelle Roberts
Hall wrote in message <82i7vs$rv4$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>...
>
>
>Loyalty to ones family is admerable only up to the point where it becomes
>blind and slavish. If someone in my family did something so horid as to be
>unforgivable (for example if they were to kill or seriously injure a child
>intentionaly) I assure you my embarrassment and outrage would NOT be
>temporary.
>
>
But you wouldn't mind much if your relative killed or seriously injured an
adult? Interesting logic you've got there.
Michelle Roberts
liberalism... when y'all say liberal, do you mean the commonly-understood
Democratic party spewings? And when you say conservative, do you mean the
usual Republican spewings?
Richard Tucker wrote in message <3850D8...@worldnet.att.net>...
>trench...@my-deja.com wrote:
>Barry Goldwater, now there's a Conservative. "Extremeism in defense of
>liberty is no vice."
This sentiment is much more Libertarian than Republican, IMO.
Brock Ulfsen
> In the SCA, is an abatement for life, like an augmentation, or is it for
> a specified amount of time, like a banishment?
>
Banishments are *not* for a specified amount of time.
...Brock.
--
Ted Eisenstein
Some are: A Level 1 banishment can be up to the duration of the reign of
the Crown that imposed it, if I remember correctly.
Or are we talking about real-life banishments?
Alban
EternalSalmissra
>
>She is one of the most beloved Baronesses in our Kingdom, unless this is some
>other Andre. I can't even IMAGINE what Baroness Amanda thinks to Andre's
>posting.
>
>
>Brianna Riordan
>Barony of Three Mountains
>An Tir
>
According to the original post, Andre was having the discussion with his
mother. ::shrugging:: hopefully this is a different Andre.
Golda ferch Deiniol
(name and device in submission)
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring the bell and run...He hates that!
Hall
Michelle Roberts <blacka...@SPAMnet-lynx.com> wrote in message
> But you wouldn't mind much if your relative killed or seriously injured an
> adult? Interesting logic you've got there.
I was using that as a theoretical example. Yes I would likly feel the same
way were they to harm an adult in the same manner, however I used the
example of a child as THE WORST example I could think of.