The Dark Ages Were a Fraud?
Matthew G. Saroff
No, really, I mean that some dude named Heribert Illig believes
that the time from 614 to 911 NEVER ACTUALLY EXISTED.
Seriously, I want what these guys were smoking, because you would
have to alter the Muslim, Hebrew, Chinese, etc. calendars too.
> The Phantom time hypothesis is a theory developed
> by Heribert Illig (born 1947 in Vohenstrau�) in 1991.
> It proposes that there has been a systematic effort to
> make it appear that periods of history, specifically
> that of Europe during Early Middle Ages (AD 614-911)
> exist, when they do not. Illig believed that this was
> achieved through the alteration, misrepresentation and
> forgery of documentary and physical evidence.
> Gregorian calendar
> The theory also stems from a claim of Illig's to the
> effect that the by the time the Gregorian calendar was
> introduced in AD 1582, the old Julian calendar, introduced
> by Julius Caesar, should have produced a discrepancy of
> thirteen days between it and the real (or sidereal) calendar,
> while the astronomers and mathematicians working for Pope
> Gregory found that the civil calendar needed to be adjusted
> by only ten days. From this, Illig concludes that it appears
> that the AD era had counted roughly three centuries which never
> existed.
> In fact, the Gregorian reform was intended to bring the
> calendar in line with the Julian calendar as it had existed in
> 325, the time of the Council of Nicaea which had established a
> method for determining the date of Easter Sunday which involved
> fixing the Vernal Equinox on March 20 in the Julian calendar, and
> not with the Julian calendar at the time of its introduction by
> Caesar. Illig's "three missing centuries" thus correspond to the
> period between the origin of the Dionysian era in AD 1 and the
> fixing of the Easter Date at the Council of Nicaea in AD 325.
> By 1582, the astronomical equinox was actually occurring on March
> 10 in the Julian calendar, but Easter was still being calculated
> from a nominal equinox on March 20. The Gregorian reform did not
> restore the relationship between calendar date and astronomical
> equinox to what it had been at the time of the institution of the
> Julian calendar in 45 BC, 369 years before the council of Nicaea,
> when the astronomical vernal equinox took place around March 23.
> Basis of his hypothesis
> The basis of Illig's hypothesis is the paucity of archaeological
> evidence that can be reliably dated to the period AD 614-911,
> perceived inadequacies of radiometric and dendrochronological
> methods of dating this period, and the over-reliance of medieval
> historians on written sources.
> For Western Europe, Illig claims the presence of Romanesque
> architecture in the tenth century as evidence that less than half
> a millennium could have passed since the fall of the Roman
> Empire, and concludes that the entire Carolingian period,
> including the person of Charlemagne, is a forgery of medieval
> chroniclers, more precisely a conspiracy instigated by Otto III
> and Gerbert d'Aurillac.
--
--Matthew Saroff
Rules to live by:
1) To thine own self be true
2) Don't let your mouth write no checks that your butt can't cash
3) Interference in the time stream is forbidden, do not meddle in causality
Check http://www.pobox.com/~msaroff, including The Bad Hair Web Page
erilar
Matthew G. Saroff <msaro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> No, really, I mean that some dude named Heribert Illig believes
> that the time from 614 to 911 NEVER ACTUALLY EXISTED.
>
> Seriously, I want what these guys were smoking, because you would
> have to alter the Muslim, Hebrew, Chinese, etc. calendars too.
That's been around for years 8-) The guy is totally off his rocker, of
course, but as a medievalist, I do need to point out that no one of any
repute in the field uses the term "Dark Ages" outside the British Isles,
generally referring to the period more or less between the Romans and
Alfred, and many there have quit using it as well. There are not only
no missing centuries, but we know a great deal about the so-called
"dark" ones, so the name no longer fits. There was, for instance, what
is often called the "renaissance of the 12th century", and before that
there was a fairly enlightened period in the latter part of the reign of
Charlemagne.
--
Erilar, biblioholic
bib-li-o-hol-ism [<Gr biblion] n. [BIBLIO + HOLISM] books, of books:
habitual longing to purchase, read, store, admire, and consume books in excess.
Dorothy J Heydt
erilar <dra...@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote:
>In article <hinnc5967j3knnak1...@4ax.com>,
> Matthew G. Saroff <msaro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> No, really, I mean that some dude named Heribert Illig believes
>> that the time from 614 to 911 NEVER ACTUALLY EXISTED.
>>
>> Seriously, I want what these guys were smoking, because you would
>> have to alter the Muslim, Hebrew, Chinese, etc. calendars too.
>
>That's been around for years 8-) The guy is totally off his rocker, of
>course, but as a medievalist, I do need to point out that no one of any
>repute in the field uses the term "Dark Ages" outside the British Isles,
>generally referring to the period more or less between the Romans and
>Alfred, and many there have quit using it as well. There are not only
>no missing centuries, but we know a great deal about the so-called
>"dark" ones, so the name no longer fits. There was, for instance, what
>is often called the "renaissance of the 12th century", and before that
>there was a fairly enlightened period in the latter part of the reign of
>Charlemagne.
Quite true.
I prefer that fine old term, "Early Period," myself.
--
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
(still living in the 9th century)
Mists/Mists/West Vallejo, California
PRO DEO ET REGE djheydt at hotmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the hotmail edress.
Kithrup is getting too damn much spam, even with the sysop's filters.
Chris Zakes
caused Matthew G. Saroff <msaro...@gmail.com> to write:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_time_hypothesis
>
>No, really, I mean that some dude named Heribert Illig believes
>that the time from 614 to 911 NEVER ACTUALLY EXISTED.
>
>Seriously, I want what these guys were smoking, because you would
>have to alter the Muslim, Hebrew, Chinese, etc. calendars too.
Sounds like the History Monks from the Discworld have been busy again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_Monks
-Tivar Moondragon
Ansteorra
Considering how many wars have to do with population pressure and limited
resources, "make love not war" may be a self-defeating concept.
Brian M. Scott
<msaro...@gmail.com> wrote in
<news:hinnc5967j3knnak1...@4ax.com> in
rec.org.sca:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_time_hypothesis
> No, really, I mean that some dude named Heribert Illig believes
> that the time from 614 to 911 NEVER ACTUALLY EXISTED.
And I assure you, it isn't improved by reading it in the
original, e.g., Heribert Illig, _Das erfundene Mittelalter_
(The Invented Middle Ages).
But if you think that Illig's bad, try Fomenko.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Chronology_%28Fomenko%29>
[...]
Talan
David Friedman
erilar <dra...@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote:
> In article <hinnc5967j3knnak1...@4ax.com>,
> Matthew G. Saroff <msaro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > No, really, I mean that some dude named Heribert Illig believes
> > that the time from 614 to 911 NEVER ACTUALLY EXISTED.
> >
> > Seriously, I want what these guys were smoking, because you would
> > have to alter the Muslim, Hebrew, Chinese, etc. calendars too.
>
> That's been around for years 8-) The guy is totally off his rocker, of
> course, but as a medievalist, I do need to point out that no one of any
> repute in the field uses the term "Dark Ages" outside the British Isles,
> generally referring to the period more or less between the Romans and
> Alfred, and many there have quit using it as well. There are not only
> no missing centuries, but we know a great deal about the so-called
> "dark" ones, so the name no longer fits. There was, for instance, what
> is often called the "renaissance of the 12th century", and before that
> there was a fairly enlightened period in the latter part of the reign of
> Charlemagne.
I don't remember where I saw the line "We have now pushed the commercial
revolution back to the 10th Century."
(Might have been the 11th).
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of
_Future Imperfect: Technology and Freedom in an Uncertain World_,
Cambridge University Press.
Dorothy J Heydt
Well, I have a book around somewhere with something *like*
that title. The invention of the middle ages, something like
that. But it's about the 1840s, "The Last Tournament", et
al. :)
--
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
synthi...@yahoo.com
since I've been enthusiastic about these things. I often have a lot of
fun when helping new folks appreciate study of history, and one of the
big fun things is how to answer the innocent question; "what were the
dark ages like?"
Let's see,
New high tech weapons systems integrated into a newly developed
culture for distributed management.
Gothic cathedrals wonderful stained glass requiring amazing new
architecture for vastly increased light
and soaring sense of space.
After the plague you get lots of labour improvements, both cultural
and technological.
I love the heavy industrial equipment. Fortunately for us the
occaisional film maker does to, showing us things like trip-hammers,
cranes, pumps.
Clock towers permitted more fairness and reliability in labour
management.
Etc, etc.
the idea of the joke is to rattle on and on about real world history
that is exactly the opposite of the old cruel stereotypes that were
made against people from other times.
Nils K. Hammer