Zs on Byzantine Tunics
Ciarrai
librarian at a small community college.
"The art history students are really hitting me with some tough
questions. Have you ever seen the "z" symbol on clothing of soldiers or
medieval figures? I have a student trying to figure out what this
means. If you have anything on Byzantine art you can see an example on
a mosaic from the apse vault of San Vitale entitled "Christ Between
Angels and Saints (Second Coming)."
http://www.wsu.edu:8000/wciv/b/bb/bbu/bbu44.jpg
We're having trouble because we don't know what to even call the darned
symbol."
Does anyone know what this symbol means?
Jenn Ridley
>
>"The art history students are really hitting me with some tough
>questions. Have you ever seen the "z" symbol on clothing of soldiers or
>medieval figures? I have a student trying to figure out what this
>means. If you have anything on Byzantine art you can see an example on
>a mosaic from the apse vault of San Vitale entitled "Christ Between
>Angels and Saints (Second Coming)."
>http://www.wsu.edu:8000/wciv/b/bb/bbu/bbu44.jpg
>We're having trouble because we don't know what to even call the darned
>symbol."
What to call it is fairly easy. Byzantines were Greeks, and it looks
like a zeta to me.
Why it's there, I don't know, and haven't been able to find out. It
probably has some symbolic meaning, but I'm afraid I don't know enough
about the medieval orthodox church to figure it out.
stasia
---
Jenn Ridley
jenn....@gt.org
ZnamSinger
Italy, France, etc. I can ask him if he knows of any significance to the
pattern.
Elspeth (who's finding a lot of cross over btw the Orthodox Church and the
SCA) of Seal Cove
Bryan J. Maloney
> "Ciarrai" <ker...@email.msn.com> wrote:
> >
> >"The art history students are really hitting me with some tough
> >questions. Have you ever seen the "z" symbol on clothing of soldiers or
> >medieval figures? I have a student trying to figure out what this
> >means. If you have anything on Byzantine art you can see an example on
> >a mosaic from the apse vault of San Vitale entitled "Christ Between
> >Angels and Saints (Second Coming)."
> >http://www.wsu.edu:8000/wciv/b/bb/bbu/bbu44.jpg
> >We're having trouble because we don't know what to even call the darned
> >symbol."
>
> What to call it is fairly easy. Byzantines were Greeks, and it looks
> like a zeta to me.
First, let us read the following:
The phrase "Byzantine Empire" was coined and popularized by French
scholars such as Montesquieu, an influential figure of eighteenth century
intellectual
life.. He was the same author whose seminal volume The Spirit Of The Laws
did much to inspire the Founding Fathers of the United States in their
writing
of the American Constitution. Like other thinkers of his time, Montesquieu
revered the ancient Greeks and Romans with immoderate enthusiasm as
masters
of politics and culture to be emulated. Following a Western European
tradition that extended back to the early Middle Ages, Montesquieu
regarded the
Empire at Constantinople as corrupt and decadent. Although he wrote a long
history of the Empire at Constantinople, Montesquieu could not bring
himself
to refer to the Empire at Constantinople with the noble names of "Greek"
or "Roman." From the obsolete name "Byzantium," Montesquieu used the word
"Byzantine." The word "Byzantine" denoted the Empire and connoted its
supposed characteristics: dishonesty, dissimulation and decadence. The
English
scholar Edward Gibbon in his Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire treated
the Empire after the sixth century as an epic of unrelieved degradation
and
corruption.
The people who lived in the "Byzantine Empire" never knew nor used the
word "Byzantine." They know themselves to be Romans, nothing more and
absolutely nothing less. By transferring the Imperial capital from Rome on
the Tiber to the New Rome on Bosphorus, dubbed Constantinople, the Emperor
Constantine I had transferred the actual identity of Rome to the new
location. Long before Constantine I, the idea of "Rome" had become
dissociated from
the Eternal City on the Tiber. For a Roman meant a Roman citizen,
whereever he lived. Before the Imperial period, in 89 BC, a Roman law had
granted
Roman citizenship to people throughout Italy. Afterwards, citizenship
became extended to an increasing number of people in different parts of
the Empire.
In 212, Emperor Caracalla declared all free persons in the Empire to be
Roman citizens, entitled to call themselves Roman, not merely subject to
the
Romans. Within a few decades, people begin to refer to the entire Empire
less often [in Latin] as "Imperium Romanorum" [Domain of the Romans] and
more often as "Romania" [Romanland]
Second, the particular mosaic featured is in Rome. I have never seen it
in any Orthodox ikonography. If you will look at the writing above the
figures, you will see that it is Latin, not Greek.
--
"Before we judge the lobotomist of old too severely, we
should go to the nearest street grate and see how we are
dealing with our mental health crisis today."
Ciarrai
Then does anyone know what "Roman" Z-like symbols mean on the bottom of a
tunic? <grin>
<snip>
> > > you can see an example on
> > >a mosaic from the apse vault of San Vitale entitled "Christ Between
> > >Angels and Saints (Second Coming)."
> > >http://www.wsu.edu:8000/wciv/b/bb/bbu/bbu44.jpg
> > >We're having trouble because we don't know what to even call the darned
> > >symbol."
Elaine Ragland
> In article <7Hy2OLv1ZPISTx...@4ax.com>, jenn....@gt.org wrote:
>
> > "Ciarrai" <ker...@email.msn.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >"The art history students are really hitting me with some tough
> > >questions. Have you ever seen the "z" symbol on clothing of soldiers or
> > >medieval figures? I have a student trying to figure out what this
> > >means. If you have anything on Byzantine art you can see an example on
> > >a mosaic from the apse vault of San Vitale entitled "Christ Between
> > >Angels and Saints (Second Coming)."
> > >http://www.wsu.edu:8000/wciv/b/bb/bbu/bbu44.jpg
> > >We're having trouble because we don't know what to even call the darned
> > >symbol."
> >
> > What to call it is fairly easy. Byzantines were Greeks, and it looks
> > like a zeta to me.
>
> First, let us read the following:
> The phrase "Byzantine Empire" was coined and popularized by French
> scholars such as Montesquieu, an influential figure of eighteenth century
> intellectual....
This is really rude, and beside the point. Art historians regularly refer
to art from the eastern Greek-speaking medieval world as "Byzantine". The
Metropolitan did a fabulous exhibit on Byzantine art a few years ago. You
might try looking at the catalogue in your local college library.
> The people who lived in the "Byzantine Empire" never knew nor used the
> word "Byzantine." They know themselves to be Romans, nothing more.
> Second, the particular mosaic featured is in Rome. I have never seen it
> in any Orthodox ikonography. If you will look at the writing above the
> figures, you will see that it is Latin, not Greek.
Actually, San Vitale is in Ravenna. As in the EXARCHATE OF RAVENNA.
Under direct Byzantine rule, as opposed to the people further north who
were under the political jurisdiction of the pope. Early medieval
Italians diffentiated between papal Roman authority (secular and
religious) and that of the Greek-speaking imperials who periodically tried
to take over the rest of Italy. Ever hear of Belisarius? Until
Christmas Day, 800, they called the guy sitting on the throne in
Constantinople "the emperor." After Charlemagne, they called him "the
Greek emperor."
The mosaics in question are indeed Byzantine, since they were done in a
city under Byzantine rule and commissioned by a Byzantine ruler. I
couldn't bring up the jpeg in question on Netscape, so I couldn't see the
z's myself. Usually, Byzantine iconography uses the Chi Rho, if it's
going to use the alphabet. Are they repeated on the hem? They may just
be a stylized design, or a simplification of interlocking knot-work.
As for your argument over the term "Byzantine", the same could be said of
the word "feudalism", but it's still a useful theoretical term.
Elaine M. Ragland
aka Melanie de la Tour
Elaine Ragland
> I am posting the following from a friend of mine who is a reference
> librarian at a small community college.
>
> "The art history students are really hitting me with some tough
> questions. Have you ever seen the "z" symbol on clothing of soldiers or
> medieval figures? I have a student trying to figure out what this
> means. If you have anything on Byzantine art you can see an example on
> a mosaic from the apse vault of San Vitale entitled "Christ Between
> Angels and Saints (Second Coming)."
> http://www.wsu.edu:8000/wciv/b/bb/bbu/bbu44.jpg
> We're having trouble because we don't know what to even call the darned
> symbol."
>
> Does anyone know what this symbol means?
>
Ah, I finally got the web page up. I was leaving out a colon.
Since it's Christ Pantokrator (ruler of all), crowning a saint, I would
say that it's a variation of the Alpha and the Omega. In other words,
he's the beginning and the end. Either the alpha is hidden by the fold in
his robe, or it's a reference to the end of all days. The race is over,
the battle won, and all that jazz.
Hope this helps.
Elaine
Richard Eney
Ciarrai <ker...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>I am posting the following from a friend of mine who is a reference
>librarian at a small community college.
>
>"The art history students are really hitting me with some tough
>questions. Have you ever seen the "z" symbol on clothing of soldiers or
>medieval figures? I have a student trying to figure out what this
>means. If you have anything on Byzantine art you can see an example on
>a mosaic from the apse vault of San Vitale entitled "Christ Between
>Angels and Saints (Second Coming)."
>http://www.wsu.edu:8000/wciv/b/bb/bbu/bbu44.jpg
>We're having trouble because we don't know what to even call the darned
>symbol."
>
>Does anyone know what this symbol means?
There are extant medieval socks (twelfth century AD and no, they are not
nalbinding) from Egypt that have a "Z" repeated (backwards and forwards)
knitted into them; the official explanation is that the symbol represents
Allah. I'd call it a Z (or "zed" if you want something that sounds more
academic).
=Tamar the Gypsy
Honour Horne-Jaruk
Richard Eney wrote:
>
> In article <#QxlhNyf$GA.247@cpmsnbbsa05>,
>
> There are extant medieval socks (twelfth century AD and no, they are not
> nalbinding) from Egypt (snip)
> =Tamar the Gypsy
Respected friend:
Tell us more?
NghtLrd
booklore prowess
sven
(who is becoming increasingly disgruntled at questions being met with snooty
lectures)
Lisa Lovell
> On Thu, 24 Feb 2000, Ciarrai wrote:
>
> > I am posting the following from a friend of mine who is a reference
> > librarian at a small community college.
> >
> > "The art history students are really hitting me with some tough
> > questions. Have you ever seen the "z" symbol on clothing of soldiers or
> > medieval figures? I have a student trying to figure out what this
> > means. If you have anything on Byzantine art you can see an example on
> > a mosaic from the apse vault of San Vitale entitled "Christ Between
> > Angels and Saints (Second Coming)."
> > http://www.wsu.edu:8000/wciv/b/bb/bbu/bbu44.jpg
> > We're having trouble because we don't know what to even call the darned
> > symbol."
> >
> > Does anyone know what this symbol means?
> >
>
> Ah, I finally got the web page up. I was leaving out a colon.
>
> Since it's Christ Pantokrator (ruler of all), crowning a saint, I would
> say that it's a variation of the Alpha and the Omega. In other words,
> he's the beginning and the end. Either the alpha is hidden by the fold in
> his robe, or it's a reference to the end of all days. The race is over,
> the battle won, and all that jazz.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Elaine
I just spoke with our local Iconographer who is a graduate of St. Vladimir's
Seminary and studied under Leonid Ouspensky's protégé. She stated that a "Z"
is not associated with Christ. And that nothing placed in that location on his
robe should have significance. Since everything in Ravenna is mosaic, she is
of the opinion that the photograph is picking up (highlighting) what is only
an artistic detail (note how all the gold tiles are emphasized).
Elspeth of Seal Cove
http://www.sonic.net/~lalovell/sca
mka Lisa Ann Lovell
St. Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church
http://www.sonic.net/~lalovell/stseraphim
Ciarrai
answering the original question. Maybe he has a future in politics (or
upper management)!
It did make me wonder if we aren't supposed to refer to Medieval things as
medieval because the people living in those time periods didn't call
themselves or their stuff medieval!? Gothic architecture is another good
example of this. No one called it gothic when they were building it, so
what are we supposed to call it? There are probably hundreds of examples of
names we use for things that were never called that during the time period.
In fact it might be amusing to list some names of things (or people) that
wouldn't have been called that during that particular time period.
Just for starters....
Dark Ages, Medieval, Viking, Catholic Church (when referring to the Church
before Martin Luther), "chain" maile, etc.
Others?
NghtLrd <ngh...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000301190803...@ng-bk1.aol.com...
Richard Eney
>> > I am posting the following from a friend of mine who is a reference
>> > librarian at a small community college.
<snippage>
>> > Have you ever seen the "z" symbol on clothing of soldiers or
>> > medieval figures?
>> > If you have anything on Byzantine art you can see an example on
>> > a mosaic from the apse vault of San Vitale entitled "Christ
>> > Between Angels and Saints (Second Coming)."
>> > http://www.wsu.edu:8000/wciv/b/bb/bbu/bbu44.jpg
>> > Does anyone know what this symbol means?
>> Since it's Christ Pantokrator (ruler of all), crowning a saint, I would
>> say that it's a variation of the Alpha and the Omega. In other words,
>> he's the beginning and the end. Either the alpha is hidden by the fold in
>> his robe, or it's a reference to the end of all days. The race is over,
>> the battle won, and all that jazz.
>> Elaine
>I just spoke with our local Iconographer who is a graduate of St. Vladimir's
>Seminary and studied under Leonid Ouspensky's protégé. She stated that a "Z"
>is not associated with Christ. And that nothing placed in that location on his
>robe should have significance. Since everything in Ravenna is mosaic, she is
>of the opinion that the photograph is picking up (highlighting) what is only
>an artistic detail (note how all the gold tiles are emphasized).
>
>Elspeth of Seal Cove
>mka Lisa Ann Lovell
>St. Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church
But since the figures in the Ravenna mosaics are dressed in Byzantine
fashion, and the patches on the robe are placed where patches on Byzantine
robes had significance for rank, wouldn't a patch in that location
logically be considered meaningful?
I noticed that the symbol which looks like a Z (or Greek zeta), if turned
on its side, resembles an Aleph (Hebrew). Could this possibly have been
a visual pun on Alpha/Omega?
=Tamar
Brian L. Rygg/Brendan Pilgrim
>
> It did make me wonder if we aren't supposed to refer to Medieval things as
> medieval because the people living in those time periods didn't call
> themselves or their stuff medieval!? Gothic architecture is another good
> example of this. No one called it gothic when they were building it, so
> what are we supposed to call it? There are probably hundreds of examples
of
> names we use for things that were never called that during the time
period.
> In fact it might be amusing to list some names of things (or people) that
> wouldn't have been called that during that particular time period.
>
> Just for starters....
> Dark Ages, Medieval, Viking, Catholic Church (when referring to the Church
> before Martin Luther), "chain" maile, etc.
>
> Others?
>
The first that comes to mind is "hennin." I've read that in researching
whether that stereotypical tall pointy ladies' hat was actually period, it
was found that it was, but called by another name that I cannot recall.
"Renaissance," too -- I'm not sure whether folks were referring to a
"rebirth" of (knowledge, science, arts, what? -- just what *was*
supposedly being reborn then?) at the time, but certainly it wasn't used as
an adjective to describe everything of the then-current age.
--
Brendan Pilgrim poet, rogue, scholar, and foole
http://come.to/your.pilgrim rygbee(at)montana(dot)com
Cognitio et Cogitatio Vitae Pennas Dant
Or, a winged elephant segreant counter-ermine winged azure, tusked argent
imbrued, bearing in its trunk a garden rosebud gules, stemmed and leaved
vert