Tuchux and Fake Tuchux
hami...@adi.com
>Well, one of the Tuchux was (Smash Greywolf, I believe) was in Caid, at an
>event, and some dipshit, pretending to be a Tuchuk, when asked by Smash what
>clan he belonged to , told Smash he "didn't know what he was talking about"
>and that he WAs a real Tuchuk. Go figure.
I dunno. If Dipshit read the Gor novels and based his "recreation" on them,
I don't see any reason to say he was "pretending to be a Tuchuk", any more
than the eastern (common garden-variety) Tuchux are "pretending".
Angelica Paganelli
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|Applied Dynamics International |Casa Salone Rigararsi |
|3800 Stone School Rd., Ann Arbor, MI 48108 |Shire of Cynnabar, Midrealm |
Mark Bernard
The symbol is not optional wear.. And woe be to any outsider
caught wearing it. With-
out specific knowledge of our people and laws and customs,the
average joe sca don't know Tuchuk from upchuck,even with the
chance to question the suspect.Intentional use of the term
suspect,for we allways are in sca's eyes.So the simple way is
as follows:
The TUCHUX are a proud people and are likewise proud of our
symbol and our heritage. The easiest way to tell a Tuchuk is to
ask him. The second is to look at him. First,he will have scars
painted on the right side of his face. As few as one, being white
or red. These marks are diagonal from
the center of the upper lip toward the ear. Note the colors.
Tuchux also wear the tribal symbol, in the form of tatoos,,jewlery,
and craft items,or drawn on the body like the scars with paint or
markers.
Perhaps one of the notable members of the family who name
everybody Harold and live at Harold's point at war can describe
our symbol in the proper heraldic terms and add it to this post.
But our symbol is easy enough to visualise. Start with six (6)
curved horns. Take four and attach the ends to make a diamond
with the curves facing in. Then take the last two and place
them on left and right, vertically, inside the respective
apexes on the diamond. Bosk horns,rampant,on a field of blood.
Or something. I do not give specifics regarding the scars
because I dont want to encourage mimicry. But I will be
glad to address specific complaints regarding SUSPECTED
TUCHUX.
Tantor of Bear Clan
Tribal Elder of Tuchux
Long live Wulf the Mighty
And King Whoosit Thisweek of SCA.
and shit.
The opinions expressed are mine alone, and do not
nescessarily reflect those of the Ubar or the Chieftains.
--
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
! Illigitimus non sequestorum servorum est. ! TANTOR !
! "NEVER let the bastards make you serve" ! of BEAR CLAN !
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Baron Jonathan
In article <960322133...@hake.adi.com>, hami...@adi.COM wrote:
> I dunno. If Dipshit read the Gor novels and based his "recreation" on them,
> I don't see any reason to say he was "pretending to be a Tuchuk", any more
> than the eastern (common garden-variety) Tuchux are "pretending".
>
Why do people keep refering to the Tuchux as based on the Gor novels? By
their own admission that's where the idea originally started, but it has
evolved. I'm sure I'm not the expert on either to be able to argue
effectively, so I will defer to Ferret, Smash and their ilk, but I feel as
if you gentles are stuck on one aspect of this household and can't let it
go. What specifically is it that they do that is out of period? I view
them as Goths or Visigoths while everyone else seems to think they are
some fantasy recreation. Like I said, maybe that's how they started but
most of us came from the D&D background too and our original personas were
probably based on something similar. Can they document their garb...is it
pre-16th century...well?
Jonathan
--
+------------**Ba...@Sauron.HACKS.Arizona.EDU**------------+
| Baron Jonathan Thorne | Ermine, on a lozenge |
| - Baron of Tir Ysgithr | gules, a knights' |
| (Atenveldt) | chess piece |
| -Lord of House Argent Horse | argent. |
+- http://sauron.hacks.arizona.edu/~chrome/jonathan.html --+
Robert M Van Rens
: What specifically is it that they do that is out of period?
It might be a shorter list to ask, what do they do that is _not_ out of
period...but, hhmmm, let's see...garb (no possibe documantation to _any_
group civilized enough to make steel or iron weapons; even the Teutones, who
worked strictly in Broze, wore more than bunny-fur...when the 'Chux wear
more than this (and yes, I admit they frequntly do) the cut and style are
completely anachronistic, as are many of the dress accessories...the weapons
that many carry, such as the "fantasy" blades (particularly so-called
"scimitars") and throwing knives (completely OOP)...the list goes on and
on.
I'm not saying that there aren't SA folk guilty of al these things...there
are, and I admit it freely. But the Tuchux are more visible, because
(particularly in terms of garb) they don't even try to follow our rules...
Anther reason is that the "CHux have gotttn some pretty bad press over the
years, some of it deserved, some of it not. Since they are readily visible,
they are easy to point a finger at. And since there is no distinction
readily availible to many other SCA-folk, and since many claim to, be Tuchux
who aren't, the whole Tuchux/bunny-fur bikini/fantasy barbarian crowd gets
lumped together.
: I view them as Goths or Visigoths
But they're not. They're a group of people that has NO BASIS IN HISTORY.
They look little or nothing like Goths or Visigoths, and behave even less
like them. ANd as far as the "Barbarian Alliance" household that I ran into
at Pennsic this year, NOBODY I've yet encountered has managed to produce
garb appropriate to any SCA-period "barbarian" culture...or for that manner,
pre-SCA (for taht gentleman in the leather loin apron and vest that claimed
to be Cimbri...despite the fact that Cimbri wore pants, and torcs, and
cloaks, and frequently tunics (according to the accounts of Gauis Marius,
who fought them), and lived 600 years before the Fall of Rome, and were
essesntially wiped out by the aforementioned Gauis Maruis in the northern
Italian Alps near the Rhone river.
: while everyone else seems to think they are
: some fantasy recreation. Like I said, maybe that's how they started but
: most of us came from the D&D background too and our original personas were
: probably based on something similar. Can they document their garb...is it
: pre-16th century...well?
No, it is not. Not at all. SOme do make pretty good attmpts, to be sure,
but loincloths are not not not not period, nor is the wearing of that much
leather. Leather was not wron next to the skin very often in period. Ever
wear hand-tanned leather? it's stiff, scratchy, and uncomfortable, unless
you chew it until it's soft. You would _not_ want to wear this next to your
skin. Even the Teutones, who wore leather breeches, freqently wore cloth
underwear (again, according to Caius Maruis)
:
: Jonathan
:
Eadric Fahomra
Robert M Van Rens
: average joe sca don't know Tuchuk from upchuck,
True. Undeniably true.
: Perhaps one of the notable members of the family who name
: everybody Harold and live at Harold's point at war
Is this as in "Harold the Tuchuck"? Sorry, I hafta ask..."of course, I
myself have never heard of such a thing" (attributed many times to Haorld
the the Tuchuk)
: can describe
: our symbol in the proper heraldic terms and add it to this post.
:
: Tantor of Bear Clan
: Tribal Elder of Tuchux
:
: Long live Wulf the Mighty
: And King Whoosit Thisweek of SCA.
: and shit.
Tell ya what...
You don't insult my King, and I'll pay proper respect to your Ubar. Is that
so much to ask?
Repectfully,
Eadric Fahomra
Bryan J. Maloney
ba...@sauron.hacks.arizona.edu (Baron Jonathan) wrote:
> Greetings all from Jonathan,
>
> In article <960322133...@hake.adi.com>, hami...@adi.COM wrote:
>
> > I dunno. If Dipshit read the Gor novels and based his "recreation" on them,
> > I don't see any reason to say he was "pretending to be a Tuchuk", any more
> > than the eastern (common garden-variety) Tuchux are "pretending".
> >
>
> Why do people keep refering to the Tuchux as based on the Gor novels? By
> their own admission that's where the idea originally started, but it has
First, there is no way that Wulf's Tuchux can legally prevent anybody else
from claiming the name "Tuchux" unless they have managed to trademark the
term (which I doubt they can). Thus, any bozo who's read the books can
legally call himself a "Tuchuck", and it appears that quite a few are
these days.
Second, if they only have extra-legal methods at their disoposal, then
they can ask somebody not to use that name, but anything stronger can
become harassment, intimidation, or assault, and I really doubt that
Wulf's Tuchux, as a group, are prone to criminal activity.
> probably based on something similar. Can they document their garb...is it
> pre-16th century...well?
I doubt that they could, or would even bother to try to document their
"garb" (I hate that word--could somebody document the term "garb"?). The
Tuchux, by their own admission, care nought for the details of our own
world's history. They like to claim that they "could" fit as an
unidentified "barbaric" people, but so, then, could Thundarr...
(Although Ukla the Mok might have a little trouble with a galliard.)
Bryan J. Maloney
Rens) wrote:
> at Pennsic this year, NOBODY I've yet encountered has managed to produce
> garb appropriate to any SCA-period "barbarian" culture...or for that manner,
> pre-SCA (for taht gentleman in the leather loin apron and vest that claimed
Myrkfaelinn has a member who does a pretty darn good Roman-hating Briton,
except for his hair, which is on the short side (his mundane job requires
it), and I've seen some acceptable Scandinavians done in the Midrealm.
None of them wear bunny-bikinis, though. I will agree that Wulf's Tuchux
are nothing at all like Goths.
Bryan J. Maloney
> because I dont want to encourage mimicry. But I will be
> glad to address specific complaints regarding SUSPECTED
> TUCHUX.
Sir, a far better, far more intelligent, and far more honorable response
than the lunatic ravings of another of your "tribe". According to that
poor fool, SCA has to go around and police every person claiming to be a
"Tuchuck".
kellogg
: Why do people keep refering to the Tuchux as based on the Gor novels? By
Let's see, there is thier name, thier internal hierarchy names,
the fact that they use tepees (an 18th or 19th century amerindian inovation),
some of thier clan names (like tarn, a big bird from the novels).
As long as they are Tuchux, have tarn clans and Ubars, how can we think
of them as any thing BUT Gor fantasy wannabes?
Avenel Kellough
Balynar
"noble" who was bedecked in truely period foppery make a shambles and a
disgrace out of themselves by thier actions and thier intentions. These
people follow the letter of the rules of the SCA, but they do not uphold
the spirit of which the society was founded. When i first started , I was
told that the SCA was about honor, chivalry, and the resurgance of beliefs
that had been abandoned in modern society. For many a year I believed
this, all the while watching the little intrigues of politics between
small minded people.I dunno, call me jaded, but over the last 7 years
since I joined, I have seen the so called chivalrous and mighty leaders of
the SCA when they believed no one was watching, or that no-one can hear
what they say, and it sickens me. These are the people who can't tell a
past-time from reality, and they screw up the works for those of us who
come to meet people and have fun. I have never had to worry about these
things when I deal with a Tuchuck. I know that if they tell me something,
it is so. i know that if I have a problem with one, they tell me. I know
that if one is behind me on the field of combat , my back is protected.
Thats what the spirit of the SCA is...being able to look someone in the
eyes and take them at their word.
Balynar
Ferret
being the scapegoat.
"getting rid" of the Tuchux won't change anything, just some other group
will take on an undeserved reputaion.
How about a list of who we can blame everything on if there are no Tuchux.
Ferret
JkrissW
ba...@sauron.hacks.arizona.edu (Baron Jonathan) writes:
> Like I said, maybe that's how they started but
>most of us came from the D&D background too
That's a generality of dubious accuracy.
Daveed of Granada, AoA, CHA
From the Barony of Lyondemere in fair Caid
mka J. Kriss White in smoggy L.A.
jkr...@aol.com
Stephen Ross
>I doubt that they could, or would even bother to try to document their
>"garb" (I hate that word--could somebody document the term "garb"?).
Actually, I seem to remember Chaucer using the word 'garb' at least
once - I remember thinking "Neat! They did use the word 'garb'!", but I
could be wrong. I always thought that 'garb' was a general term for
clothing, especially fancier clothing such as might be worn on special
occasions. If anybody has an index in their copy of the Canterbury
Tales it would be handy to confirm this.
(Personally, I always liked the word, myself. Especially since
when spelled backwards, it displays one of garb's many functions!)
Matthew Ross
As yet Unnamed
Canton of Eoforwic
JkrissW
>How about a list of who we can blame everything on if there are no
Tuchux.
>
>
>
Well, there's Ferret...
:-)
Arval d'Espas Nord
> > How about a list of who we can blame everything on if there are no Tuchux.
> 1. The authenticity police.
>
> 2. The Horde
>
> 3. The Board
4. John the Pell
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mit...@panix.com
David Friedman
>
>
1. The authenticity police.
2. The Horde
3. The Board
David/Cariadoc
William Underhill
>"getting rid" of the Tuchux won't change anything, just some other group
>will take on an undeserved reputaion.
>
>Ferret
How about Ferret as one of the most contentious and ornery people to grace
the Rialto? Please note, Ferret, I am _not_ saying you have no right to be
contentious or ornery, just that you are, or at least come across that way.
On the other hand, I must say you've moved me to think about my position on
things.
Yours aye,
William the Mariner
* Souper 1.0 beta 248 - The meek shall inherit the earth - 3 feet wide by 6 feet deep.
======================================================================
William Underhill | Neither the Canadian Forces nor
SCA: William the Mariner, AoA | the S.C.A. have anything to do
email: tr...@islandnet.com | with my opinions. Their loss.
uf...@freenet.victoria.bc.ca |
aa...@cfn.cs.dal.ca | ---===\ In Vino Veritas /==---
William Underhill
C. Clark
>>event, and some dipshit, pretending to be a Tuchuk, ...
>I dunno. If Dipshit read the Gor novels and based his "recreation" on
them,
>I don't see any reason to say he was "pretending to be a Tuchuk", any
more
>than the eastern (common garden-variety) Tuchux are "pretending".
>Angelica Paganelli
The difference is that the Tuchux known to the SCA are not based mainly
on the Gor novels. If they were, they would be in the same category as
the elves, klingons, etc. The Tuchux are an established group with a
long-standing association with the SCA. Some fantasy Tuchuk (based
directly on Gor) who isn't part of this group has no place in the SCA.
If the Tuchux are at least about as accurate as more or less early-period
Europeanish "barbarians" as most Scadians are as Medieval and Renaissance
folks, then I see no reason why the fantasy-novel derivation of the name
should exclude them from participation in the SCA. After all, we in the
SCA have more than a few customs (and even names) that don't exactly
belong in the middle ages.
Henry of Maldon/Alex Clark ccl...@vicon.net
Tom Gibson
: > How about a list of who we can blame everything on if there are no Tuchux.
: >
: > Ferret
: 1. The authenticity police.
: 2. The Horde
: 3. The Board
: David/Cariadoc
OK, that's five. Any more?
- Warren of the Just Plain
Making an educated guest.
William Underhill
>"getting rid" of the Tuchux won't change anything, just some other group
>will take on an undeserved reputaion.
>
>Ferret
How about Ferret as one of the most contentious and ornery people to grace
William Underhill
Thomas W. Ireland
wrote: : : :
there are no Tuchux. : : > : : >
: 2. The Horde :
: 3. The Board :
: David/Cariadoc :
: OK, that's five.
Any more? :
: - Warren of the Just Plain : Making an educated guest.
6. John the Pell -- it's all John's fault!
FRIDRIKR (who expects to be on the list far too soon! :)
Barbara Nostrand
Meistari Fridrikr Tommason av Knuslig Hamn suggested the following society
scapegoat:
> 6. John the Pell -- it's all John's fault!
Now now! John the Pell is just too local to be a society wide scapegoat.
Now, da heralds are another matter. We all know that da heralds (especially
former kingdom principal heralds, and most especially those former principal
heralds who intend to become principal herald of yet another kingdom) are a
secret cabal intent upon ruling the society (and possibly the world) by
ensaring it in their beurocratic traps. As such, everyone knows that da
heralds are even more rapascious and power hungry than even the kings, the
seneschals or even da BoD itself.
Your Humble Servant
Solveig Throndardottir
Amateur Scholar
Baron Jonathan
Avenel wrote:
> I wrote:
>
> : Why do people keep refering to the Tuchux as based on the Gor novels? By
>
> Let's see, there is thier name, thier internal hierarchy names,
> the fact that they use tepees (an 18th or 19th century amerindian inovation),
> some of thier clan names (like tarn, a big bird from the novels).
> As long as they are Tuchux, have tarn clans and Ubars, how can
we think
> of them as any thing BUT Gor fantasy wannabes?
Not having read the Gor novels or having any Tuchux living within 2 days
travel of my Barony, these are things I didn't know...
My one question to this is...since the SCA is based on how things should
or could have been (ie. name submission...could that name have existed in
period?)...COULD a group like the Tuchux have existed in period?
Bryan J. Maloney
Friedman) wrote:
> > How about a list of who we can blame everything on if there are no Tuchux.
> >
> >
> > Ferret
>
> 2. The Horde
Well, didn't Yang proclaim "We are the ENEMY!", oh, so very long ago?...
Susan Carroll-Clark
Jonathan said,
> I view them as Goths or Visigoths
Well, perhaps from a Roman standpoint :-). Seriously--I spent the first
two years as a genuine Ostrogoth. Theoderic the Great was (and still is)
one of my heroes. The Gothic society described in H. Wolfram's _History
of the Goths_ bears little or no resemblance to Tuchux society.
The Tuchux are quite willing to say they're playing a different game.
They are _not_ trying to be "period". This does not mean that there
are no honourable Tuchux, just as choosing to play hockey does not mean
that you believe baseball is a dishonourable game.
Most of the time the 'Chux and the SCA go their separate ways, and
even when they're at the same events, the majority of members of the two
groups simply ignore each other. However, there's always a certain element
in any crowd (equally present in SCA and the 'Chux) that seems to enjoy
stirring up trouble. They're twits, whether they wear medieval garb or
Tuchux garb.
I think things would work out a lot better if we could start treating
incidents involving jerks as simply that--taking action based on _actions_,
not on what someone is wearing. If only.....
Cheers!
Nicolaa de Bracton
scl...@epas.utoronto.ca
Honour Horne-Jaruk
> In article <baron-22039...@baron.biosci.arizona.edu>,
> ba...@sauron.hacks.arizona.edu (Baron Jonathan) writes:
>
> > Like I said, maybe that's how they started but
> >most of us came from the D&D background too
>
> That's a generality of dubious accuracy.
>
>
> Daveed of Granada, AoA, CHA
Respected friend:
What he said. Of the people whose pre- SCA hobbies I know, one came
from geneology, one from heraldry, one from Narnia, twenty from High School
history classes under an exciting teacher, another twenty-plus from sewing,
and three from Girl Scouts...
Alizaunde/Una
(Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F.
The problem with "good enough" is that it usually isn't...
Ferret
>> the fact that they use tepees
Unlike SCAdians who mostly use medieval nylon tents. :-)
Ferret
Ferret
> There is a difference between using a modern convienence because
>you have no other option, and deliberately going to the expense of making
>an inapporpriate shelter.
I suggest that since a few Tuchux have such shelters available, using them
makes as much sense as any SCAdian using the camping tent he has available
from other activities.
It is _not_ the case that they bring them to be purposely inappropriate no
mare than SCAdians with modern tents do.
> Actually, I think using tepees is even inapropriate if one is
>attempting to be a Gor barbarian.
Which most Tuchux wil tell you they are _not_ doing, although some of the
origins of Tuchux had that influence. Much as the SCA grew out of a
tolkienesque group.
Ferret
David Friedman
> : Why do people keep refering to the Tuchux as based on the Gor novels? By
Someone answered:
> Let's see, there is thier name, thier internal hierarchy names,
> the fact that they use tepees (an 18th or 19th century amerindian
inovation), ...
As best I recall, the Tuchuks in John Gor's book lived in wagons, not tepees.
David/Cariadoc
Lance R. Bailey
> In article <ddfr-25039...@0.0.0.0> dd...@best.com (David Friedman) writes:
> >> the fact that they use tepees
> Unlike SCAdians who mostly use medieval nylon tents. :-)
> Ferret
sigh. two problems here.
1) it's a strawman argument. the question was
Baron Jonathan (ba...@sauron.hacks.arizona.edu) wrote:
: Why do people keep refering to the Tuchux as based on the Gor novels? By
and the answer was:
kel...@rohan.sdsu.edu wrote:
> Let's see, there is thier name, thier internal hierarchy names,
> the fact that they use tepees (an 18th or 19th century amerindian inovation),
*nothing* about authenticity, just why a certain group is associated
with the Gor novels. if you want to attack based on the accuracy of
kellogg's statements, as did David:
dd...@best.com wrote:
>As best I recall, the Tuchuks in John Gor's book lived in wagons, not tepees.
>David/Cariadoc
that's fine, but you're not even attacking the issue here. please pay
more attention to the question at hand. :) :)
2) and more important, your misquoting of previous articles attributes
"the fact that they use tepees" to david, when he was only
commenting/correcting a comment by kellogg. please be more careful in
trimming articles.
thank you.
--
Zaphod
Forgive me Father, I'm only in here to develop film. --Emo Philips
kellogg
: In article <ddfr-25039...@0.0.0.0> dd...@best.com (David Friedman) writes:
Actually, I wrote the following, not Dr. Friedman.
: >> the fact that they use tepees
: Unlike SCAdians who mostly use medieval nylon tents. :-)
There is a difference between using a modern convienence because
you have no other option, and deliberately going to the expense of making
an inapporpriate shelter. Incidentally, I use a full frame viking tent
when camping at wars. Come by the Drafn camp at Estrella or Potrero sometime
to see how good a camp of A-frames can look.
Actually, I think using tepees is even inapropriate if one is
attempting to be a Gor barbarian. As I recall the books, the Tuxhux's
dwellings were more like yurts, at least through book 7, which is as
far as I got. There may well be differences in later volumes, internal
consistency was not one of Norman's strong points as a writer.
Avenel Kellough
Ferret
>Ferret (dnb...@psu.edu) wrote:
>> Unlike SCAdians who mostly use medieval nylon tents. :-)
>1) it's a strawman argument.
No, it's a smiley faced joke.
Ferret
Tim.K...@gsa.gov
>The Tuchux are quite willing to say they're playing a different game.
>They are _not_ trying to be "period". This does not mean that there
>are no honourable Tuchux, just as choosing to play hockey does not
>mean that you believe baseball is a dishonourable game.
see the connection between different games and honor. Honor should be
a constant (notice I said should be) no matter what game you play or
whether you are in or out of period.
Shrike of the Tarn Clan, Tuchux
David Friedman
> origins of Tuchux had that influence. Much as the SCA grew out of a
> tolkienesque group.
>
> Ferret
1. "Influence" seems an understatement.
2. In what sense did the SCA grow out of a tolkienesque group? I am sure
many of the early people had read and been influenced by Tolkien, but as
far as I know there was no organized Tolkien fan group out of which the
SCA grew.
David (who was a member of such a group c. 1957, a bit before his SCA
involvement)/(Cariadoc)
Nancy Lebovitz
<Tim.K...@gsa.GOV> wrote:
>
> I'm glad to see that you recognize honor among the Tuchux, but I don't
> see the connection between different games and honor. Honor should be
> a constant (notice I said should be) no matter what game you play or
> whether you are in or out of period.
>
peoples, and in all times and places? It's my impression that the
honorable thing to do in matters of revenge, suicide, or reconciliation
varies in different cultures.
Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net)
12/95 updated calligraphic button catalogue available by email
Susan Carroll-Clark
Shrike said,
>I'm glad to see that you recognize honor among the Tuchux, but I don't
>see the connection between different games and honor. Honor
>should be a constant (notice I said should be) no matter what game you play or
>whether you are in or out of period.
My point exactly. In sports, we tend to call honour "good sportsmanship"--
that is, following the rules, respecting the other team, and so on. Different
games sometimes allow different interpretations of honour (for instance,
fighting is tolerated in pro hockey, but always penalized, etc.), but
in the end, there is quite a bit of similiarity from sport to sport.
All of us--SCAers and Tuchux alike--are modern day people in reality. There
are jerks and saints amongst both groups (although never having met a Tuchux
in person, I'm basing this on the fact that they are humans :-). In many
ways I agree with the substance of what Ferret says (judge individuals ,
not groups). I also believe there is a certain level of commonly acceptable
behavior amongst modern humans, and that the difficulty comes in borderline
cases. In Ines' incident, the problem lay that it is well-known that some
'Chux like to play "caveman" (for lack of a better word) games; the difficulty
was in interpreting whether in this case a game was being played--or not.
If not, the behavior would have been abusive, just as for someone to
go up and hit another person with a rattan stick say, in a parking
lot, would be judged differently than if it occurred on a list field.
It is interesting that this is a dilemma outside the SCA-Tuchux world.
Hockey players have been tried for manslaughter after freak accidents involving
a behaviour that one would normally be penalized for. If someone dies because
you cross-checked them into the boards, should you be tried for it?
Or does the fact that it occurred within the context of a game make a
difference?
We also have the moral dilemma of judging a group implicitly involved here.
Did Ines step in because a Tuchux was involved and she disagreed with their
game? Or did she step in because she thought she was witnessing an assault?
Can our desire to not morally judge the Tuchux as a group outweigh our need
to ensure that that small percentage who likes to cause trouble does no
harm? Can a Tuchux ever get a "fair trial" in the SCA? I'm sure many of
you have noticed that these issues, too, have a larger, real-world context.
And the decisions are _not_ cut and dried; they are difficult to make.
Nicolaa de Bracton
scl...@epas.utoronto.ca
Ferret
>2. In what sense did the SCA grow out of a tolkienesque group? I am sure
>many of the early people had read and been influenced by Tolkien, but as
>far as I know there was no organized Tolkien fan group out of which the
>SCA grew.
There are still copies of the invitations to one of the earliest events in
California in existance (one was reprinted in either TI or the Pikestaff not
long ago) and it requests attendees to wear fantasy costumes. I think it
mentioned JRRT by name but I am not sure.
Ferret
DAVID RAZLER
J>In article <dnb105.21...@psu.edu>, dnb...@psu.edu (Ferret)
J>writes:
J>>How about a list of who we can blame everything on if there are no
J>Tuchux.
J>>
J>>
J>>
J>Well, there's Ferret...
J>:-)
J>Daveed of Granada, AoA, CHA
J>From the Barony of Lyondemere in fair Caid
J>mka J. Kriss White in smoggy L.A.
J>jkr...@aol.com
"If ever it should happen that a victim need be found....."
Sirs WFG & AS
Ferret
>J> (Ferret) writes:
>J>>How about a list of who we can blame everything on if there are no
>J>Tuchux.
>J>Well, there's Ferret...
Well that will only work till someone kills me, then you'ld have to pick
someone else. Not that I would mind, but the thing to look for is long-term
stability. :-)
Ferret
Ferret
>you have noticed that these issues, too, have a larger, real-world context.
>And the decisions are _not_ cut and dried; they are difficult to make.
You have illuminated the crux of the matter. The SCA is not a seperate
entity but is a micricosm of the world-at-large. We bringe all our modern
cultural baggage, and problems, with us to events. I am in favor of using
outside arbitrators in serious matters rather than attempt to handle such
grave situations on our own. Although good intentions may be noble and
honorable, taking the law into our own hands is (to most) a gross injustice
to everyone (victim, accused and the community).
Ferret
rudi...@utdallas.edu
> > Honor should be a constant (notice I said should be) no matter
> > what game you play or whether you are in or out of period.
> This is a bit of a topic shift, but *is* honor the same among all
> peoples, and in all times and places? It's my impression that the
> honorable thing to do in matters of revenge, suicide, or reconciliation
> varies in different cultures.
If honor is a real thing that we are trying to learn about, then it is
always constant, and our understanding of it changes as we learn more, and
lose (or pick up) false ideas. The universe doesn't change either, but
astronomy in our minds, Kepler's, Copernicus's, and Ptolemy's are very
different things.
Also, our application of universal principles of honor will vary by
culture. The presence of policemen, the trust one puts in the legal
courts, the current death rate, etc. all affect how universal principles
affect our actions. Even if Honor is constant and eternal, the honorable
thing to do keeps changing.
That being said, our understanding of honor (in western Europe) underwent
an incredible change during the sixteenth century, especially in Italy.
We begin with "Honor is the reward of virtue, and is paid to none but the
good" (Aristotle). Note that honor is *not* a quality inside
you -- that's virtue. Your honor is your reputation, fame, poems written
about you, etc. By the end of the sixteenth century, your honor was the
qualities within you (notably courage and justice) that lead people to
give you these honors. I highly recommend Frederick Bryson's *The Point
of Honor in Sixteenth Century Italy* if you want to delve into it.
So, did honor change, or did the concept stay constant while the words
moved around it, or did we just learn more about it. That's a fun
philosophical debate that is impossible to prove, but fun to play with.
(Hint: In our question "Is honor constant?", what does "honor" mean?
a. What we call honor at any given time, or
b. what we believe it to be at our present level of development, or
c. the unchanging virtues that we "ought" to honor?
By defining the word, we can give the question any answer we like.
Similarly, in "Does astronomy change?", does "astronomy" mean
a. what we call astronomy at any given time, or
b. what we currently believe about the state of the universe, or
c. the actual unchanging state of the universe?
Ultimately, your question is somewhere between a linguistic questiuon
about language and a philosophical question about men's hearts. It means
both, and until you define your terms, it has no answer. After you've
defined your terms, the answer is obvious -- and meaningless.
None of this linguistic and philosophical discussion will help in actual
dealings with people, by the way. The pragmatic answer is that people use
the word "honor" to mean "sorta kinda what I'm thinking about honor at
this particular moment, biased by the politics of the moment and the
effects of last night's pizza".
No English word always means the same thing.
Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
Andrew Cross
>
> stirring up trouble. They're twits, whether they wear medieval garb or
> Tuchux garb.
>
I know a few twits who might take offense to the association of their
class with that of the Tuchux...
Gaelwyn ap Taliessin
A friend to twits
Steve Henderson
Actually, the invitation to the first tournament says, in the lower
left hand corner "All guests are encouraged to wear the dress of some
age of Christendom, Outre-Mer, or Faerie, in which swords were used."
While a number of us who were there and who went on to organize the
SCA were science fiction/fantasy fans, in no sense were we an organized
group at the start. Indeed, a great many of us didn't even know each
other. The thing we had in common was knowing Diana Paxton or one or
another of her roommates. What kept us togeather were common interests
and a developing great love of what we were doing.
Jason
In article <4j053c$9...@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, ro...@netcom.ca(Stephen Ross) writes:
>> Actually, I seem to remember Chaucer using the word 'garb' at least
>>once - I remember thinking "Neat! They did use the word 'garb'!", but I
>>could be wrong. I always thought that 'garb' was a general term for
>>clothing, especially fancier clothing such as might be worn on special
>>occasions. If anybody has an index in their copy of the Canterbury
>>Tales it would be handy to confirm this.
>> (Personally, I always liked the word, myself. Especially since
>>when spelled backwards, it displays one of garb's many functions!)
>>
>> Matthew Ross
>> As yet Unnamed
>> Canton of Eoforwic
I responded:
>I seem to recall a few years back, TI did an article on the word garb. I don't
>have it on hand, but if I remember correctly, the gist of it was that in period
>times, garb referred to a horse's barding, not clothing. I'll have to go home
>and do some digging for the sources, etc. used.
Well, I went home and looked up the article, and I got two parts right. TI did
do an article on the word garb a few years back (Issue 103, Summer '92). And
garb as clothing is not period. The rest of my post appears to be a bit of a
brain fart. According to Kenneth Madison (the author of the article) "garb"
first appeared in the English language in @ 1436 and meant "bundle". Towards
the end of the 16th century, garb ( then spelled "garbe") took on the meaning
of "grace", "elegance", or "graceful curve".
Just thought I'd be the first to correct myself.
In service to the dream,
Erik Blackwood
Jason Mohler j_mo...@wmc34b.wmc.edu
http://socrates.math.ohio-state.edu/pages/JasonMohler.html
The writing on the wall is a mirror to our soul.
Nancy Lebovitz
>Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net) wrote:
>
>> > Honor should be a constant (notice I said should be) no matter
>> > what game you play or whether you are in or out of period.
>
>> This is a bit of a topic shift, but *is* honor the same among all
>> peoples, and in all times and places? It's my impression that the
>> honorable thing to do in matters of revenge, suicide, or reconciliation
>> varies in different cultures.
Many thanks for a nice untangling of concepts.
>
>If honor is a real thing that we are trying to learn about, then it is
>always constant, and our understanding of it changes as we learn more, and
>lose (or pick up) false ideas. The universe doesn't change either, but
>astronomy in our minds, Kepler's, Copernicus's, and Ptolemy's are very
>different things.
Would you care to describe (at least approximately) what you think
of as honor?
>
>Also, our application of universal principles of honor will vary by
>culture. The presence of policemen, the trust one puts in the legal
>courts, the current death rate, etc. all affect how universal principles
>affect our actions. Even if Honor is constant and eternal, the honorable
>thing to do keeps changing.
This makes sense.
>
(.....)
>
>None of this linguistic and philosophical discussion will help in actual
>dealings with people, by the way. The pragmatic answer is that people use
>the word "honor" to mean "sorta kinda what I'm thinking about honor at
>this particular moment, biased by the politics of the moment and the
>effects of last night's pizza".
I also think that, when most people talk about honor, they're referring
to the particular code they believe in rather than whatever the code
is trying to approach.
>
>No English word always means the same thing.
>
I agree.
BriThyla
actually get the facts, find out who actually committed the offence in
question, and blame THAT INDIVIDUAL. I realize this concept HAS fallen out
of favor in this era of political correctness and the "Twinkie defense",
but if we all try REALLY, REALLY HARD, we may just be able to bring it
back into vogue.
Barring that, we can always go back to the butler. Because everyone KNOWS
that the butler did it. : ))
Brian Broadaxe
H L. Falls
We can do it like the old custom about heralds -- anyone who kills a
herald has to take his place. Anyone who kills Ferret is the new "blame
him for everything" person... :-)
--Landi
Nancy Lebovitz
him?
Tim Brennan
>Ferret (dnb...@psu.edu) wrote:
>: In article <ddfr-25039...@0.0.0.0> dd...@best.com (David Friedman) writes:
>: >> the fact that they use tepees
>: Unlike SCAdians who mostly use medieval nylon tents. :-)
>Hey, you just can't beat that midieval nylon!
> - Warren of the Just Plain
> Dedication or childish enthusiasm? You decide.
Sure you can beat it - IF you've got a 500 dent reed.
Is a twill period for ripstop nylon?
Ferret
> There is a difference between using a modern convienence because
>you have no other option, and deliberately going to the expense of making
>an inapporpriate shelter.
They already have the tents! They don't "go out of their way" to use them.
They just use the stuff they have from other activities just like the SCAian
who uses a camping tent he already has.
> Actually, I think using tepees is even inapropriate if one is
>attempting to be a Gor barbarian.
Tuchux are only _very loosely_ based on GOR. Perhaps you should ask one why
they use teepees instead of jumping to conclusions.
Ferret
VIRGINIA KIRKENDALL
>In article <4j958v$9...@gondor.sdsu.edu> kel...@rohan.sdsu.edu (kellogg)
> writes:
>
>>There is a difference between using a modern convienence because
>>you have no other option, and deliberately going to the expense of making
>>an inapporpriate shelter.
Why is there no other option to spending the war in a nylon bag?
We've seen plenty of Scadians in little pavilions. That appears to be an
option to me, and they are not much more expensive than the modern
convienence - a nylon tent. Much cooler too. Perhaps Mr. Kellogg might try
the options.... What's that comment about glass houses? Perhaps we should
adjust it to say "glass Coleman Tents".
As to Teepees being inappropriate shelters - this is only a game. Chill out.
>>Actually, I think using tepees is even inapropriate if one is
>>attempting to be a Gor barbarian.
>
Perhaps, Kellogg, you might educate yourself as to the meaning of
being Tuchux first. You appear to be misinformed on just about everything
there is to know on the subject.
Peter Rose
>>>you have no other option, and deliberately going to the expense of making
>>>an inapporpriate shelter.
>
> Why is there no other option to spending the war in a nylon bag?
>We've seen plenty of Scadians in little pavilions. That appears to be an
>option to me, and they are not much more expensive than the modern
that pre-date their days in the society. If you've already GOT a coleman,
it's pretty silly to spend $100 or so on one of those canvas monstrosities
that take up twice as much space in your VW. *IF* one is getting a new
tent FOR SCA camping, most people would agree that a peri-oid tent would
be better.
>As to Teepees being inappropriate shelters - this is only a game. Chill out.
>>>Actually, I think using tepees is even inapropriate if one is
>>>attempting to be a Gor barbarian.
Are you all erroneously assuming that tepees were not used in pre-17th
century Europe?
David Friedman
> Umm.... Why does anyone think a tepee-type tent is inappropriate?
> Are you all erroneously assuming that tepees were not used in pre-17th
> century Europe?
Don't stop there. Were they used in Europe? When and by whom? Is there
good information on how they were constructed? Curious minds want to know.
David/Cariadoc
Chris and Elisabeth Zakes
>> Why is there no other option to spending the war in a nylon bag?
>>We've seen plenty of Scadians in little pavilions. That appears to be an
>>option to me, and they are not much more expensive than the modern
That's debateable. The period tent catalogs I've seen run 2x to 3x the
cost of a modern nylon tent for the same floor space.
> This may come as a shock, but many people have tents in their possession
>that pre-date their days in the society. If you've already GOT a coleman,
>it's pretty silly to spend $100 or so on one of those canvas monstrosities
>that take up twice as much space in your VW. *IF* one is getting a new
>tent FOR SCA camping, most people would agree that a peri-oid tent would
>be better.
My major objection to peri-oid (nice term!) tents is that they're:
1. Heavier
2. Bulkier
3. More susceptible to rot & mildew
4. Lacking in integral floors. This is a definite problem when your
ground probably has cactus, fire ants or both.
Now if someone would just start selling a line of peri-oid nylon
tents, with integral floors, I'd be *really* interested.
> Umm.... Why does anyone think a tepee-type tent is inappropriate?
>Are you all erroneously assuming that tepees were not used in pre-17th
>century Europe?
Were they? I'll admit that I haven't done any serious research on it,
but I don't think I've seen a teepee in a European context. Could you
document this for us ignorant types?
-Tivar Moondragon
C and E Zakes
Tivar Moondragon (Patience and Persistence)
and Aethelyan of Moondragon (Decadence is its own reward)
moon...@bga.com
Greg Lindahl
Chris and Elisabeth Zakes <moon...@bga.com> wrote:
>That's debateable. The period tent catalogs I've seen run 2x to 3x the
>cost of a modern nylon tent for the same floor space.
There are period tent merchants who will sell you a tent for any
price, and there are those who will sell you an inexpensive tent. For
example, the Regimental Quartermaster (a Civil War place) sells
A-frame canvas tents for $110, not including poles. That's 9' deep, 6'
tall, and 8.5' wide at the base of the A. A frames can be viking
tents, Elizabethan tents, or other periods.
Sure, you can always find a garage-sale modern tent for less. But $110
is within the price range for most folks.
Gregory Blount
Peter Rose
>> Are you all erroneously assuming that tepees were not used in pre-17th
>> century Europe?
>
>good information on how they were constructed? Curious minds want to know.
Looking up the Online card-catalog, The book I'm remembering is:
DREW, "Tensile Architecture", NA4160.D73 ISBN 0891585508
The rest of this is from memory:
He claims that Conical tents were used from far enough back to use
mamoth-ribs as poles, and as recently as the present day, in Eurasia.
That they were used as far East as Siberia, and as far West as Lappland,
and as far south as Turkey.
I remember there being more than one design,(Big surprise) including
the Poles leaning together, something on short legs, and something
with a latice-work frame. The coverings included hides, birch-bark,
and something cloth that could be stuffed with hay and/or branches,
for greater insulation.
--Ralph
Kevin Davis Connery
>WI...@uriacc.uri.edu (Peter Rose) wrote:
>
>
>>> Why is there no other option to spending the war in a nylon bag?
>>>We've seen plenty of Scadians in little pavilions. That appears to be an
>>>option to me, and they are not much more expensive than the modern
>
>cost of a modern nylon tent for the same floor space.
Quite probably.
But most modern tents--especially the compact, moderately inexpensive ones,
lack cubic space; they have a very high coverage of the floor, but are
only a foot or three tall.
Most repro tents are a minimum 5+ feet tall, making the difference, perhaps,
not conducive to a direct comparison.
--kdc
--
Keradwc an Cai A Caidan Mistie (or was that a Misty Caidan?)
Kevin Davis Connery kcon...@isi.com or ker...@rahul.net
Rebekah and Chip
>Peter Rose wrote:
>
>> Umm.... Why does anyone think a tepee-type tent is inappropriate?
>> Are you all erroneously assuming that tepees were not used in pre-17th
>> century Europe?
>
>Don't stop there. Were they used in Europe? When and by whom? Is there
>good information on how they were constructed? Curious minds want to know.
>
>
>--
>dd...@best.com
I recall a Native American cultures class I took a few years ago in which
the instructor showed slides of a teepee-like shelter used in Scandinavia,
which he claimed was pre-columbian. It looked like a standard plains teepee
in construction, but as I recall it used a thatched wall instead of skin.
I'll try to dig out my class notes, but surely some of our Viking enthusiasts
or Scandinavian brethern can come up with something more authoritative.
Ld Nikodemos Katallakos
St Artemas/Calafia/Caid
Tom Gibson
: Peter Rose wrote:
: > Are you all erroneously assuming that tepees were not used in pre-17th
: > century Europe?
: Don't stop there. Were they used in Europe? When and by whom? Is there
: good information on how they were constructed? Curious minds want to know.
Don't you see? The vikin's, they came over and (little-known to some)
taught the art of hunting buffalo, and in the process acquired many a
fine skin for themselves. They also cut a lot of good lodgepole
sapplings while they tramped the hills of what would one day become
wyoming. So, when their Airstream-Lookalike Longhouses broke down they
made these quick and easy cone-shaped substitutes, and they worked out so
well they took them back, and made them the rage of paris.
Who else could it be?
- Warren of the Just Plain
Actually I wouldn't be surprized to find evidence of teepees in europe
and elsewhere, PRE-historic, but I never heard/read/seen of any such In
Period or even close to it. So yeah, such news Would be interesting!
- WJP
Ferret
>Actually I wouldn't be surprized to find evidence of teepees in europe
>and elsewhere, PRE-historic, but I never heard/read/seen of any such In
>Period or even close to it. So yeah, such news Would be interesting!
It is sometimes difficult to document early medieval structures. The
reconstructions of many of them are based on posthole placement and little
more. One must be careful about "documentation". If you wan't an "authentic"
structure you may have to settle for holes in the ground because the rest
would be guesswork and inference.
Ferret
Dr. Bloch
>There are period tent merchants who will sell you a tent for any
>price, and there are those who will sell you an inexpensive tent. For
>example, the Regimental Quartermaster (a Civil War place) sells
>A-frame canvas tents for $110, not including poles. That's 9' deep, 6'
>tall, and 8.5' wide at the base of the A. A frames can be viking
>tents, Elizabethan tents, or other periods.
In the 15th-century Franco-Italian _King Rene's Book of Love_, folio 55
has a painting of what looks a lot like an A-frame tent, with two
ladies sitting in front of it fishing. The picture is fairly dark, so
you can't see as much detail as you might like: it might, for example,
be a thatched leanto rather than a fabric tent. And it appears to have
a cruciform center-pole at the front (and presumably at the hidden
back), rather than being held up only by a rigid triangular structure
of wood. But it's very clearly triangular in cross-section, and editor
F. Unterkircher calls it a tent.
Incidentally, anyone interested in late-medieval tent reconstruction
should find a copy of King Rene's Book, as it also contains several
detailed pictures of round and oval tents.
mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib
--
Stephen Bloch
sbl...@panther.adelphi.edu
http://www.adelphi.edu/~sbloch/
Math/CS Dept, Adelphi University
Dr. Bloch
>Looking up the Online card-catalog, The book I'm remembering is:
> DREW, "Tensile Architecture", NA4160.D73 ISBN 0891585508
Also check out _Tents: the Architecture of the Nomads_, by Torvald
Faegre. It contains a chapter each on teepees, North African black
tents, Turkish black tents, sub-Saharan hide tents, yurts, and I don't
remember what else, all with measurements and construction details.
Baron Jonathan
Could tepees be documented (at least by observation) to at least 1492
(Columbus) time frame? Didn't they then return to Europe? Within the
scope of the fact that we are the Society for Creative Anachronism and not
the Society for Compulsive Authenticity, couldn't we construe that it is
completely possible that the style of shelter was at least known to
Western Europe (a small few, I'm sure)? The idea is more of....could it
have existed...that's the essence of our game...
Jonathan
--
+------------**Ba...@Sauron.HACKS.Arizona.EDU**------------+
| Baron Jonathan Thorne | Ermine, on a lozenge |
| - Baron of Tir Ysgithr | gules, a knights' |
| (Atenveldt) | chess piece |
| -Lord of House Argent Horse | argent. |
+- http://sauron.hacks.arizona.edu/~chrome/jonathan.html --+
Bryan J. Maloney
ba...@sauron.hacks.arizona.edu (Baron Jonathan) wrote:
> scope of the fact that we are the Society for Creative Anachronism and not
> the Society for Compulsive Authenticity, couldn't we construe that it is
Don't you mean "the Society of the Hastily-Chosen and
Not-at-all-Though-Out Name"?
kellogg
: I recall a Native American cultures class I took a few years ago in which
: the instructor showed slides of a teepee-like shelter used in Scandinavia,
: which he claimed was pre-columbian. It looked like a standard plains teepee
: in construction, but as I recall it used a thatched wall instead of skin.
: I'll try to dig out my class notes, but surely some of our Viking enthusiasts
: or Scandinavian brethern can come up with something more authoritative.
On an episode of "The Woodwright's Shop", they visited a cultural
museum in Norway that collects and preserves buildings from Scandanavia.
One of the homes was a Migration Period (I think) finnish dwelling. It was
essentially a cone of pine logs covered in pine boughs. It was a permanent
shelter, though, so would have more in common with Amerindian lodges than
temporary shelters like the classical tepee.
As I recall form a Cultural Antro course I took ages ago, though, the
classic plains amerindian tepee did not come about until the introduction
of the horse, which could haul the travois to carry the large, heavy lodge
poles required. Before that time, any possesions were carried on the back
or by dog travois, so were necessarily light and small.
Avenel Kellough
Andrixos
>Could tepees be documented (at least by observation) to at least 1492
>(Columbus) time frame? Didn't they then return to Europe? Within the
>scope of the fact that we are the Society for Creative Anachronism and
not
>the Society for Compulsive Authenticity, couldn't we construe that it is
>completely possible that the style of shelter was at least known to
>Western Europe (a small few, I'm sure)? The idea is more of....could it
>have existed...that's the essence of our game...
Teepees are an architecture of the Great Plains. Columbus never even made
it to the mainland. Why not say that totem poles (Pacific
Northwest) made it back too? There is a great difference between
theoreticly possible and documentable. Stop making excuses for
lack of research or concern for the basics of authenticity.
Andrixos
Marc Carlson
>>...scope of the fact that we are the Society for Creative Anachronism and
>>not the Society for Compulsive Authenticity, couldn't we construe that it is
>>completely possible that the style of shelter was at least known to
>>Western Europe (a small few, I'm sure)? The idea is more of....could it
>>have existed...that's the essence of our game...
>Stop making excuses for lack of research or concern for the basics of
>authenticity.
I don't wish to flame the good Baron, but essentially I agree with you.
If you don't want to play within the scope of what should be authentic
for your persona, don't make excuses for that. It's nobody's business
but yours. It is *possible*, no matter how implausible that you could have
brought the idea back from the Plains, or wherever, where it is impossible
to document that it existed from time immemorial, and that the plains indians
copied it from in the 18th century. Or don't even bother to fake up a
story and just do it.
Just don't be insulting to those of us who WANT to be "compulsively
authentic".
"Si conatus meus verys esse, Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
minitant te, fac ut vivas" University of Northkeep/Company of St. Jude
Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
(I. Marc Carlson/I...@vax2.utulsa.edu)
Chris and Elisabeth Zakes
(snippage)
>Could tepees be documented (at least by observation) to at least 1492
>(Columbus) time frame? Didn't they then return to Europe? Within the
>scope of the fact that we are the Society for Creative Anachronism and not
>the Society for Compulsive Authenticity, couldn't we construe that it is
>completely possible that the style of shelter was at least known to
>Western Europe (a small few, I'm sure)? The idea is more of....could it
>have existed...that's the essence of our game...
>Jonathan
Were teepees used in the Carribbean or Mexico or northern South
America? What about Florida?
I'd always thought they were used by the horse-riding nomads of the
central plains, and *that* culture didn't develop until the Spanish
lost enough horses to make it practical (1600's, maybe 1700's? not my
area of expertise.)
Chris and Elisabeth Zakes
>In article <4k9a71$i...@news3.realtime.net>,
>Chris and Elisabeth Zakes <moon...@bga.com> wrote:
>>That's debateable. The period tent catalogs I've seen run 2x to 3x the
>>cost of a modern nylon tent for the same floor space.
>There are period tent merchants who will sell you a tent for any
>price, and there are those who will sell you an inexpensive tent. For
>example, the Regimental Quartermaster (a Civil War place) sells
>A-frame canvas tents for $110, not including poles. That's 9' deep, 6'
>tall, and 8.5' wide at the base of the A. A frames can be viking
>tents, Elizabethan tents, or other periods.
>Sure, you can always find a garage-sale modern tent for less. But $110
>is within the price range for most folks.
>Gregory Blount
True, but an 8.5 x 9 A-frame doesn't come close to being adequate for
a family of 5. We're currently using a 10 x 20 and a 5 x 5 mushroom.
The big one was about $350.00, comparable peri-oids are $6-700 and up.
Chris and Elisabeth Zakes
>In a recent article (<4k9a71$i...@news3.realtime.net>), moon...@bga.com wrote:
>>WI...@uriacc.uri.edu (Peter Rose) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> Why is there no other option to spending the war in a nylon bag?
>>>>We've seen plenty of Scadians in little pavilions. That appears to be an
>>>>option to me, and they are not much more expensive than the modern
>>
>>That's debateable. The period tent catalogs I've seen run 2x to 3x the
>>cost of a modern nylon tent for the same floor space.
>Quite probably.
>But most modern tents--especially the compact, moderately inexpensive ones,
>lack cubic space; they have a very high coverage of the floor, but are
>only a foot or three tall.
>Most repro tents are a minimum 5+ feet tall, making the difference, perhaps,
>not conducive to a direct comparison.
Actually, I wasn't talking about the mushroom-style tents at all. We
currently use a modern 10 x 20 three-room with a centerpole at least 8
feet off the ground. I like to be able to stand up in my tent, and I'm
6 ft tall. If/when I get a peri-oid tent I fully intend for it to be
at least as big, possibly bigger.
BriThyla
in a Nylon tent, you are going to have to spend some money and put up with
some inconvenience for the same amount of CUBIC Space. Yes, you can get
period style canvas tents without breaking the bank, but you are going to
have to put up with a loss of headroom and usable floor space. I would go
crazy living in an A-frame pavilion of less than 9 or 10' center height
because I would have trouble with how little headroom I would have and I
want my rope bed and my wooden clothes chest inside my tent. I'm not a
giant but I like to be able to walk within a couple feet of my walls
without hitting my head on the ceiling. I personally would love a period
tent, but I need headroom too. I've found a source for used surplus tents
at reasonable prices, but they aren't a period color. ( I want that GP
medium. I don't care if it weighs 300 lb+ sans poles and is 18' x 54'.
I'll pay for the extra camping space. :) ) Only kidding of course.) I've
also been looking at the portable garages. The metal framework isn't
period, nor is the fabric of the cover, but they are reasonably priced
($300 to $500) and look medieval from a distance. I can always get a
canvas cover later. Neither of these are in the same price range as an
8'X10' cabin tent at $75 to $100 dollars.Even a good sized canvas wall
tent is going to cost you $250 + .
My two kopecks worth,
Brian Broadaxe
Randy Martens
to the contents of the convenient package, and voila! Tuchux
for any occaison!
Use them as party favors! Liven up that next church choir recital!
Take them to your in-laws house! Loose them at school!
Also available in the convenient "horde pack" for those really
large events.
To order this amazing new product, call 1-800-4TUCHUX. Operators
are standing by...
--
| "Beelzebub has a devil put aside for me, for me ,for me!" - F. Mercury |
The Ulair
This thread brings to my mind another question: how many people (esp
those doing the "SCA on a budget" and maybe only able to afford 1 tent) plan
on using their tents for other uses beyond SCA events?
There is also the related question of "how many are just using dad's
old camping gear", or the like?
-Eirik
Baron Jonathan
(Marc Carlson) wrote:
> <andr...@aol.com (Andrixos)>
> >>...scope of the fact that we are the Society for Creative Anachronism and
> >>not the Society for Compulsive Authenticity, couldn't we construe that it is
> >>completely possible that the style of shelter was at least known to
> >>Western Europe (a small few, I'm sure)? The idea is more of....could it
> >>have existed...that's the essence of our game...
> >...There is a great difference between theoreticly possible and documentable.
> >Stop making excuses for lack of research or concern for the basics of
> >authenticity.
>
> I don't wish to flame the good Baron, but essentially I agree with you.
> If you don't want to play within the scope of what should be authentic
> for your persona, don't make excuses for that. It's nobody's business
> but yours. It is *possible*, no matter how implausible that you could have
> brought the idea back from the Plains, or wherever, where it is impossible
> to document that it existed from time immemorial, and that the plains indians
> copied it from in the 18th century. Or don't even bother to fake up a
> story and just do it.
>
> Just don't be insulting to those of us who WANT to be "compulsively
> authentic".
>
> "Si conatus meus verys esse, Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
> minitant te, fac ut vivas" University of Northkeep/Company of St. Jude
> Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
> (I. Marc Carlson/I...@vax2.utulsa.edu)
Greetings!
I thank you for your tempered comments...seems that many are quick to jump
on someone for next to nothing on here. I completely agree that tepees
are quite a stretch of the imagination in our game, and I personally would
prefer to see them at a buckskinner event than an SCA event. Sorry for
the term, it's an old joke among some friends of mine...Society for
Compulsive Authenticity :) I'm very much into authenticity, but there is
always a point to be discussed that should include 'could it have
happened?' Few on here ever seem to wish to venture there. It's just a
discussion and I am glad to see there are others out there that still
support the polite, intelligent discussion method over the "let's flame
the hell out of anyone who doesn't think like me" method.
'I am alive...that's all that counts!'
Jonathan :)
Ferret
>Yes folks, it's new Artificial Instant Tuchux! Just add mead
>to the contents of the convenient package, and voila! Tuchux
>for any occaison!
But does it have real barbarian flavor ?
Ferret :-)
ashley fraser
: This thread brings to my mind another question: how many people (esp
: those doing the "SCA on a budget
If you want a period oid tent on a budget why not build one, We did. It
is a 20 x 15 viking A frame and all toteled it cost around $125 for every
thing. Even if you figure on loosing 3 feet on each side (we used it for
storage and didnt feel like we lost anything) that still leaves a 9 x 20
space that is at least 6+ feet. That was good for us even when we were
both grummpy.
We used huge canvis drop cloths from home depot and they ran $70, we
spent around $8 on good all cotten thread (I cant rember what kind) $20
on mildewproofing (a MUST) $10 for rope and tapes to tye the tent shut,
and $15 for lumber, wich we bought at Copper lumber near Pennsic. We
reused some old stakes.
You need access to a heavy duty sewing unit but some home models will do.
It can be done and it took less than 12 hours with the shopping. Just
make sure all your seams go all the same way and testing it first is a
good thing. Yours Lady Lillith LaBlanc MKA Ashley Fraser
Mairi
On 10 Apr 1996, The Ulair wrote:
>
> This thread brings to my mind another question: how many people (esp
> those doing the "SCA on a budget" and maybe only able to afford 1 tent) plan
> on using their tents for other uses beyond SCA events?
> There is also the related question of "how many are just using dad's
> old camping gear", or the like?
>
> -Eirik
>
Eirik has hit the nail on the head. My lord and I are in college,
and mostly supporting ourselves. Our friends, who also share our tent at
events, are in the same boat. We have *no money*, and when we do have
extra, it is usually a tiny amount which we would prefer to set aside for
other things such as better garb fabric or metal, etc for armor making.
The tent we use is a two room nylon wonder from Academy. It was the only
thing we could find which was tall enough for Andrew and Alistriona to
stand in (they are over six feet) and large enough to accomodate our
other friends with less resources. It cost $160, and it surely does not
look very period. I simply cannot afford a period tent, although when I
can I intend to get one. And yes, we used Alistriona's mother's old tent
before it began leaking at Gulf Wars.
We are new to the SCA, and we greatly enjoy it, but it does seem
to be a rather expensive hobby. Armor and foils for rapier, and armor for
heavy fighting really add up, and if you add the cost of fabric for
decent-looking garb, rivets, leather pieces, chairs, rattan sticks, and
weekend travelling costs to events, those of us on very limited budgets
really have to save where we can. Even when you make most of your items
yourself (as we are trying to do), authenticity costs.
I would hope that anyone feeling that nylon tents are somehow
undesirable or indicative of a lesser attempt at being 'period' would
keep this in mind.
In service,
Mairi, still searching for a persona name
Marc Carlson
>...I completely agree that tepees are quite a stretch of the imagination
OTOH, if they *are* similar to Finn or Lapp tents, then that might be
interesting to see them used by a Finn or Lapp persona. Barring that,
they do look just dandy at Buckskinner sites :)
>Sorry for the term, it's an old joke among some friends of mine...
>Society for Compulsive Authenticity :)
That's alright, I've only really recently started getting torqued
by it. The first time I saw the term on buttons (back in the early
80s) it even was amusing, but that was at the point that I was interested
in playing the game for the fantasy of the Current Middle Ages.
>...I'm very much into authenticity, but there is always a point to be
>discussed that should include 'could it have happened?' Few on here
>ever seem to wish to venture there...
I think the question involves the fuzzy line between "possible" and
"plausible". I'm perfectly willing to discuss "possible", and even try
to support "possible", but I would much rather deal with "plausible"
or even "likely".
Let me bore you for a moment. In the last few months, I have become
interested in playing with various techniques for oiling leather, to
get different effects (specifically with regards to shoes). From what
we know of "period" leathers, we know that some leathers were possibly
oiled, and I do know that proper care of leather will help it last longer.
I do know that modern buckskinners, based on a variety of sources use
a variety of gooey mixes to care for things like moccasins.
Now it is perfectly plausible to me that "they" cared for their footware
with as much diligence as I was taught to do in the military, which until
relatively recently was also as diligently as civilians had to care for their
leather footwear. Therefore, it seems absolutely reasonable to me, if just
as absolutely undocumentable, that "They" used some form of oil or tallow
to care for their shoes when they wore them.
BTW, properly rendered tallow gives the leather a consistancy that is far
different than that given by things like Neatsfoot oil. Moreover, I haven't
had any of my leather "turn" on me since I have been scrupulous about my
rendering proceedure (i.e. the tallow I use has NOTHING in it *but* the
tallow, and is the shade of purest milk or cream). However, summer is
coming, so we'll see about that.
Now, and even further stretch is that I know that one of the main purposes
that I waxed my military footwear so diligently and rubbed in the wax so
carefully was not to polish them, but to warm the leather and the wax
enough to soak the pastewax into the leather, and help waterproof it.
Is it not possible that "they" might have done as much? (and no, I really
*hated* shining my boots in the Army :) ). It's a bit far for me to
comfortably, but...
I know I've mentioned it at least once around here, in the February
1995 issue of _Archeometry_ there is an article (S. Charters, R. P Evershed,
P.W. Blinkhorn, and V. Denham. "Evidence for mixing fats and waxes in
archeaological ceramics" [Vol.37, pt.1, pgs. 113-127 in case anyone wants
to ILL it - be warned it's *really* dull]) that discusses a chemical analysis
of an early medieval clay pot and an anglo-saxon clay pot. Both were found
to have held a mixture of tallow and beeswax. The authors suggest that
it was to help conserve beeswax, which was hard to get. My hypothesis is
that the blending with the tallow makes the beeswax easier to rub into
leather, to help waterproof it (which it in fact appears to do).
To me, this is a reasonable stretch into hypothetical speculation that
doesn't come anywhere close to tempting to trip up plausibility.
"Fides res non pecunniae, Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
sed temporis" University of Northkeep/Company of St. Jude
-- Unknown Recreator Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
(I. Marc Carlson/I...@vax2.utulsa.edu)
Mairi
Greetings, gentles of the Rialto. Perhaps those of you with
heraldric knowledge can offer assistance. My lord, who normally is
entranced with rapier and has thus far seemed utterly uninterested in
choosing a persona, name, and period, has finally happened upon something
in a book I thrust in front of him that he professes to like.
The name is Fearchar, found as a Scottish Gaelic version of
"Farquhar" in Ronald Macdonald Douglas' "Scottish Lore and Folklore".
While I know that this book is not strictly speaking a very
accurate resource, I have heard variations of this name before, and was
wondering how usable a name authenticity wise it might prove to be. My
lord wishes to be from Scotland, in the Highlands (most likely Dunvegan
on the Isle of Skye since he wishes to be a Macleod with me) at about the
year 1450, which is the earliest he thinks he can still, persona wise, do
rapier fighting. If any of you can aid him in documenting Fearchar, or
know of any appropriate books in which we might do so ourselves, please
email me at sion...@io.com, or Andrew himself at a...@io.com.
Also, if you know the correct way to pronounce this name, that
would be lovely too.
Many, many thanks.....
Mairi and Andrew
Bryan J. Maloney
Mairi <sion...@io.com> wrote:
> I would hope that anyone feeling that nylon tents are somehow
> undesirable or indicative of a lesser attempt at being 'period' would
> keep this in mind.
To put a different spin upon things, tents of ANY sort could be construed
as not being "period". How often did the nobility, or even the gentry (if
a country had gentry) go out a-camping for fun? When faires and tourneys
were held, how many of the nobility simply bummed off the local nobles,
with the presumption that the hospitality would be returned at a later
date? How many of the nobility or gentry ("gentry" including low-ranking
types like knights) stayed at inns or other boarding arrangements which
involved buildings instead of tents.
Military campaigns might have used tents, but not universally.
Just a different perspective...
This is not to say that I wouldn't like to see "enchanted grounds" at all
SCA camping events.
Greg Lindahl
Chris and Elisabeth Zakes <moon...@bga.com> wrote:
>True, but an 8.5 x 9 A-frame doesn't come close to being adequate for
>a family of 5. We're currently using a 10 x 20 and a 5 x 5 mushroom.
>The big one was about $350.00, comparable peri-oids are $6-700 and up.
What can I say, I was merely giving one example. The same place sells
a larger $200 tent that's 12' long, 9' wide, 8' tall at the ridge
pole... again sans poles. Harder to document, but I know of a few
Elizabethan pictures of similar tents. In the ACW era, it's an
"officer's tent".
The reason that it's so cheap is probably volume. A larger fraction of
the Cival War folks buy period tentage. It would be nice if more folks
in the SCA took a similar path.
Gregory Blount
David Friedman
seem to take it for granted that the choice is between buying a modern
tent and buying a period tent. One of the things I have enjoyed about the
SCA over the years is the opportunity it provides to make things. As one
poster pointed out, you can make quite a large viking tent quite
inexpensively. It isn't much work, either. I think my squire Dain's claim
was that he could make the frame for one in two hours, including the time
to buy the wood. The tent itself takes longer than that, but not a huge
amount of time.
Pavillions are a lot more work, although also more space efficient. On the
other hand, they are also a more interesting project. And then you can
start looking at books like _Tents: Archictecture of the Nomads_
(mentioned by someone else) and try to figure out how Bedouin tents or
Arab tents worked. I only know one person in the SCA (a lady in Calontir)
who has done much serious work on trying to figure out how period tents
should be built, and I am sure there is lots more left to be done.
David/Cariadoc
Luigi
>undesirable or indicative of a lesser attempt at being 'period' would
>keep this in mind.
> Mairi, still searching for a persona name
my second Pennsic with money falling out of my ears this summer. Knowing
all sides of the picture (made myself a yurt the first year I had money) I
see no point in knocking anyone for using any tent. Period tents are most
definately preferable but too expensive for many people (materials on my yurt
ran about $800) to afford period. In my household, we put the period tents
front and center (all two of them) Grimms up the sides and the nylons in back
for asthetics.
Puppy
Haus der Kameraden
Magorn
actually I had me a thought this year that I was hoping to check against
the assembled wisdom of the bridge.... I was in a harware store the other
day and saw this huge canvas beach Umbrella, it was a lovely thing all
wood hardware and a white canvas top, and I thought....Hrrmm hang canvas
or some such off the sides and viola....Pavillion for one! The umbrella in
question was about 5ft' in diameter. Anybody ever try such a thing?
did it work?
Jhessail
I have a question concerning nylon vs canvas.
How do nylon and canvas compare in different kinds of weather?
Does canvas "sweat" when it rains like nylon?
My first pennsic was two years ago when a hour without rain was a
blessing. I heard at that time that canvas, besides looking better, was
better in rainy weather. Plus I don't like the heat the sun creates
inside a nylon tent. I'm considering constructing a canvas tent (simple
a-frame) for next pennsic and would appreciate any opinions on the matter.
Thanks
Jhessail
Greg Lindahl
> I would hope that anyone feeling that nylon tents are somehow
>undesirable or indicative of a lesser attempt at being 'period' would
>keep this in mind.
I've never met anyone who thought that, so I think you need not worry.
Why does every discussion on the Rialto always end up rife with
misunderstandings, defensive reactions, and red herrings?
Gregory Blount
lisa/kenneth lawrence
in the library--although sometimes you really have to hunt. Of course,
you might see if there isn't a local awning or party tent maker--like
someone who does wedding pavillions. That is how my husband acquired a
10'x16' pavillion, with 7 foot tall sides, for about $400. Remember to
specify canvas to them, as you may end up with vinyl if you don't!
I hope this helps :)
Erzsebet
Monica Cellio
the second two canvas. The canvas is definitely much more comfortable
temperature-wise. In the winter nylon might do a better job of keeping
heat in; I don't know, and I don't camp in the winter so it doesn't matter
to me. Under Pennsic-like conditions, though, I recommend canvas.
The (now-outgrown) pavillion I used to use stayed reasonable if I opened
both doors during the day, but got kind of stuffy in the afternoon if I
didn't. (Nylon was *much* worse even with windows open, though.) I didn't
get chased out by the heat in the mornings, and often slept comfortably
until 10 or 11.
The yurt is even more comfortable, partly because it's taller (heat
rises) and partly because it's got that convenient chimney through which
hot air escapes during (non-rainy) days.
I bought the 8x10 pavillion (something like 8 years ago) for about $350
new, plus maybe another $50 for lumber (poles), ropes, stakes, etc. We
built the yurt two years ago for about $550, $400 of which was getting
someone else to make the canvas parts. If I had been willing to do that
part myself, the total cost would have been closer to $250. Constructing
the frame took 3 people about 3 (fairly full) days.
By the way, my article on how to construct a yurt just came out in
Boke of Divers Knowlege (#7). It'll be on the web eventually, if I can
figure out how to translate the figures.
Ellisif
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~mjc/ellisif.html
--
--
Telerama has been having sporadic problems with incoming mail. If you were
expecting a reply to something you sent me and didn't get it, please resend.
Megan nic Alister of Thornwood
I have seen this work as a small arming pavillion for a day event. I
don't know how stable it would be in weather or for sleeping and living
in.
Heather Rose Jones
: The name is Fearchar, found as a Scottish Gaelic version of
: "Farquhar" in Ronald Macdonald Douglas' "Scottish Lore and Folklore".
: While I know that this book is not strictly speaking a very
: accurate resource, I have heard variations of this name before, and was
: wondering how usable a name authenticity wise it might prove to be. My
Black's "Surnames of Scotland" (p.255) gives a number of examples of this
both as a given name and as a surname. The given name examples all tend
to be a bit earlier than your target period:
Ferchart 1178
Farhard 1200
Ferkar 1224
Ferchware 1283
Fercardus 1234
Pherharchd 1251
Ferhare 1251
Fercard 1306
However the surname examples are similar enough to suppose that they
would be valid for given name spellings as well:
Farchare 1450
Farthquhare 1492
Farcar 1514
Farquhar 1527
Ferquhar 1526
Pharquhair 1543
Ferchar 1527
et al.
These are all Anglicized spellings, naturally, which provides you with an
excellant triangulation on what the name must have sounded like (at least
to English ears).
Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn
Holly Sullivan
mentioned in Period Pavilions as an idea to try. You'll need lots of
outside guylines though.
--
:)---Holly---<--<-@ 70007...@compuserve.com
FidoNet 1:202/720.0 (Sysop) 93:9085/0.0 PODS
FunAmigaLovingWitchyPaganDomesticSysGoddessAndFabricArtistAtLarge
JkrissW
Magorn <mgal...@dcez.dcez.com> writes:
>. I was in a harware store the other
>day and saw this huge canvas beach Umbrella, it was a lovely thing all
>wood hardware and a white canvas top, and I thought....Hrrmm hang canvas
>or some such off the sides and viola....Pavillion for one! The umbrella
in
>question was about 5ft' in diameter. Anybody ever try such a thing?
>did it work?
>
>
My ex-lady and I did some years ago. We basically made a curtain to go
around it and turned it into a small "arming-style" pavilion, but there
wasn't really enough support for the sides from the umbrella top.
Daveed of Granada, AoA, CHA
From the Barony of Lyondemere in fair Caid
mka J. Kriss White in smoggy L.A.
jkr...@aol.com
william thomas powers
Well-Met!
I wonder greatly at what some of you have written about Tents!
On the years when my gracious wife can attend Pennsic, our tent
is a 8'x12' raised wooden floored tent with a 6' side wall and a
10' peak. It also has a built in bed 30" off the floor that holds
the futon we use at home. This year's version will have pegs every 1'
along the upper wall beam to hold garb, knicknacks, etc.
Cost was: $0 for the post&beam mortoise&tennon frame. The wood, air dried
hardwood is available as dunnage boards--our local drywall supply offered
to let me have as many 3"x4"x10-12' oak boards as I wanted!
(remove twisty nails by first heating them with a propane torch until they
char the edge of their hole and come out easily)
Canvas for the top was around $20, 10'x20' very heavy bought at an auction.
Heavy cotton twill for the sides ran around $40. We haunted the store until
we found what we wanted on the sale table and got the "whole bolt" discount
to boot!
The floor is what originally cost some money; but the first one is
now the walls of our garage and I just bought the first 1/3
of this years for $7, (plywood).
I can set this up by myself in under 2 hours or in under 1 with 1 person's
help. This is *sturdy* I hung a porch swing on one side one year!
Our tent is not as pretty as a custom commercial tent but it is comfortable
and usefull.
The downside is that it is bulky and heavy--though the framework pieces form
one layer in the bottom of my small pickup. The flooring sheets are used as
another level and the canvas covers the whole load and helps me keep it
all together on the way to the war.
(For those who don't know me, I bring a forge, anvil postvise, scrap,
casting equipment, penannular broach class materials, coal/charcoal.......
Every Camp should have a forge and pole lathe!)
(last year 3 forges and one lathe in camp + an iron smelting furnace....)
(My wife will bring a spinning wheel, fleece, wool, cotton, silk....)
This tent went through Mudsic with no problems. We were clean and dry
and comfortable. I know of no commercial tent that did not have a
raised floor that did such a good job of seperating the Folk from the Fen!
wilelm the smith "Better Huts and Hovels" poster child
Dorothy J Heydt
>
[hang fabric walls from a large canvas umbrella?]
Karina of the Far West's first pavilion, 'way back in AS 3 or 4,
was based on an umbrella-folding *CLOTHESLINE* arrangement,
you've probably seen the like, it's square and has four folding
arms at the diagonals, with lots of clothesline running around in
concentric squares. She removed the clothesline, leaving only
what was necessary for structural stability, and made it a top
and some walls. It was only about 8x8' but that was adequate
for our simple purposes in those days. It *looked* as period as
hell from the outside.
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable djh...@uclink.berkeley.edu
PRO DEO ET REGE
Paul/Lisa Czudnochowsky
wrote:
> Yes folks, it's new Artificial Instant Tuchux! Just add mead
> to the contents of the convenient package, and voila! Tuchux
> for any occaison!
Okay, I just have to know...what is the secret ingredient in that
convenient package? Is it readily available? Could someone accidentally
run into it outside of this mix?
The reason I express this concern is that my household has a firm belief
that one should add mead to absolutely everything, and I would hate to
think that we may have been accidentally creating hordes of artificial
tuchux in our wake for years. (We do tend to have a fair bit of mead
around us -- at least enough for a horde or two.) <grin, grin, wink,
wink>
Any other flavours we should be watching out for?
--
"The amount of intelligence in the universe is a constant.
Unfortunately, the population keeps increasing."
- Arthur C. Clarke
Lisa Baker SKA: Marion FitzWilliam
Toronto, Ontario House Galbraith
czu...@pathway1.pathcom.com Skeldergate Chronicler
bj...@torfree.net Ealdormere
Dave & Laura McKinstry
>actually I had me a thought this year that I was hoping to check against
>the assembled wisdom of the bridge.... I was in a harware store the other
>day and saw this huge canvas beach Umbrella, it was a lovely thing all
>wood hardware and a white canvas top, and I thought....Hrrmm hang canvas
>or some such off the sides and viola....Pavillion for one! The umbrella in
>question was about 5ft' in diameter. Anybody ever try such a thing?
>did it work?
Let me preface my remarks by saying I've been working on this same problem, and
haven't tested my answers yet, but here's a few thoughts:
I need protection form direct sunlight during the day for myself and my
instruments, as a minstrel.
I mail-ordered one with a 7.5 foot radius for $45, and I intend use muslin,
since that's what I have AND because it weighs less than canvas. It will need
a VERY solid base to set into. I'd like to tell you it works, but I HAVEN'T
RECEIVED IT YET! Darnit. I do intend to waterproof/paint the top and sides,
or perhaps just the sides.
My only problem with it as a tent is the base. I intend to set it into 2x6s
holding the stick part of the umbrella, and 2x4s radiating from the center to
the edges for lateral stabilization. Short of a cot or somesuch, it would be
uncomfortable to sleep in with the 2x4s stretching across the floor, and not
particularly spacious (though better than most mushroom tents.)
I doubt the umbrella was designed to handle the weight of canvas hanging off
all sides, particularly if the canvas gets wet. And the standard pavilion
set-up, as I recall, has ropes radiating from the edges of the umbrella down to
the ground, which will also put more pull on the umbrella than it was designed
for. Be wary of these things (that's why I plan to use the less stressful base
situation, which, as I stated, has it's flaws for sleeping.)
I DO think 7.5 feet is the minimum diameter for sleeping in for such a tent -
of course, my mate is 6" tall, so his cot would have to be 6.5" long at a BARE
minimum, which goes beyond your 5" diameter right there. If you're 4" tall or
so, I see no problem with a 5" diameter tent, but few people are. I'm 5"6',
and am barely comfortable in a 6" diameter enclosure, though there's more
leeway if the sides don't slope.
Certainly not a definitive answer, but since I've been working in this very
same problem, I thought I'd give you my thoughts. I hope they help just a tad,
at least.
Lark of Cire Freunlaven Laura McKinstry
Steppes, Ansteorra Dallas, TX
Bryan J. Maloney
> Why does every discussion on the Rialto always end up rife with
> misunderstandings, defensive reactions, and red herrings?
'Cuz we like steamed fish stews!
Bryan J. Maloney
A lot of people are using the term "pavilion" in a way I'm not familiar
with. The tents they describe I've seen marketed and referred to as
"marquees". I had thought that a "pavilion" was a round tent.