How much are a thousand Shakespearean ducats worth???
Jennifer Clare Arnott
tonight, and there is a mention of a payment of a thousand ducats from Don John
to Boracio regarding dishonouring Hero (in semblance, at least...) How much is
this in reality... A lot for a servant, pocket change for a Duke's brother,
what???
Much thanks to anyone who can help!
Cecilia Peters and Lucia di Salerno
(Jen Arnott and Leanne Fornaca)
Craig Martin Levin
Jennifer Clare Arnott <jar...@sallie.wellesley.edu> wrote:
>A friend and I were reading through Shakespeare's Much Ado About Nothing
>tonight, and there is a mention of a payment of a thousand ducats from Don John
>to Boracio regarding dishonouring Hero (in semblance, at least...) How much is
>this in reality... A lot for a servant, pocket change for a Duke's brother,
>what???
The ducat was the Venetian coin during our period. Like money
today, it fluctuated in value. It was in the same "range" of
money as the pound, livre, or florin-the usual guy didn't
see too much of it, but he knew it existed. Think of it, as
a fellow student <and presumably existing on a wretched
student's resources...:-(>, as sort of between a $20 and a
$50; perhaps a $100 bill.
Of course, my field isn't economic history, so YMMV and
caveat lector!
--
Craig Levin Senhor Pedro de Alcazar
Ohio University History Department Shire of Dernehealde
cle...@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu Midrealm
Craig Martin Levin
>
>Greetings from Arval!
>
>Pedro de Alcazar responded to a question about the value of 1000 ducats
>from the point of view of Shakespeare's audience:
Filtered, alas, through a recent trip to Shakespeare's homeland,
which has shifted my ideas about the pound somewhat...making it both
expensive ($1.50 US= 1L) and yet unable to buy much, a $3.00
paperback ending up more like $5.00. :-(
>> The ducat was the Venetian coin during our period. Like money
>> today, it fluctuated in value. It was in the same "range" of money as
>> the pound, livre, or florin...
>I don't know if that is true, but it sounds reasonable. Let's assume it.
I am aware, through my studies of maritime history, of several
merchant bankers that mostly became wealthy by being moneychangers.
Moneychangers implies that not all coins had the same value, and
given that wool prices fluctuated, why not money?
>> ...-the usual guy didn't see too much of it, but he knew it existed.
>> Think of it, as a fellow student <and presumably existing on a
>> wretched student's resources...:-(>, as sort of between a $20 and a
>> $50; perhaps a $100 bill.
>I think you are grossly unvaluing the pounds. As William Alchymist wrote
>today (under "pound of gold, pound of feathers):
I have read that, and I am prepared to retract my earlier statements.
>> Notice the ratio: 1:12:20. The pre-decimal British currency was so
>> divided: 1 pound = 12 shillings, and 1 shilling = 20 pence. Thus it
>> should be no surprise that the smallest weight is a "pennyweight".
>> Originally a pound of _silver_ (equal in value to an ounce of gold)
>> was divided into 12 ounces (from the Latin _uncia_), and each ounce
>> could be minted into 20 silver pennies. Depending on the time in
>> England, pay on the order of shillings per year put you in the middle
>> class.
Indeed-even common sailors got several pence per week as wages. I
can check, if anyone wants.
>That accords more closely with my recollection; when I read Pedro's note, I
>thought I recalled petty noblemen in the 14th century with incomes on the
>order of 50 pounds per annum. Assuming that this level is approximately
>correct for Elizabethan England as well, and if we map petty noblemen to
>our upper middle class (income around $100,000 per annum), then one might
>think of 1000 ducats having value on of the order of two million dollars.
I would say that 50 pounds was at the lower limit, with even some
yeomen making more than these gentlemen. But, I feel, you may have
neglected the not-negligible, but non-monetary, income in terms of
goods and services provided by some of the tenants.
>Can anyone provide a more learned comparison?
I, too await one such.
Arval d'Espas Nord
Greetings from Arval!
Pedro de Alcazar responded to a question about the value of 1000 ducats
from the point of view of Shakespeare's audience:
> The ducat was the Venetian coin during our period. Like money
> today, it fluctuated in value. It was in the same "range" of money as
> the pound, livre, or florin...
I don't know if that is true, but it sounds reasonable. Let's assume it.
> ...-the usual guy didn't see too much of it, but he knew it existed.
> Think of it, as a fellow student <and presumably existing on a
> wretched student's resources...:-(>, as sort of between a $20 and a
> $50; perhaps a $100 bill.
I think you are grossly unvaluing the pounds. As William Alchymist wrote
today (under "pound of gold, pound of feathers):
> Notice the ratio: 1:12:20. The pre-decimal British currency was so
> divided: 1 pound = 12 shillings, and 1 shilling = 20 pence. Thus it
> should be no surprise that the smallest weight is a "pennyweight".
> Originally a pound of _silver_ (equal in value to an ounce of gold)
> was divided into 12 ounces (from the Latin _uncia_), and each ounce
> could be minted into 20 silver pennies. Depending on the time in
> England, pay on the order of shillings per year put you in the middle
> class.
That accords more closely with my recollection; when I read Pedro's note, I
thought I recalled petty noblemen in the 14th century with incomes on the
order of 50 pounds per annum. Assuming that this level is approximately
correct for Elizabethan England as well, and if we map petty noblemen to
our upper middle class (income around $100,000 per annum), then one might
think of 1000 ducats having value on of the order of two million dollars.
Can anyone provide a more learned comparison?
===========================================================================
Ross Dickson
>Pedro de Alcazar responded to a question about the value of 1000 ducats
>
>I thought I recalled petty noblemen in the 14th century with incomes on the
>order of 50 pounds per annum. Assuming that this level is approximately
>correct for Elizabethan England as well, and if we map petty noblemen to
>our upper middle class (income around $100,000 per annum), then one might
>think of 1000 ducats having value on of the order of two million dollars.
The math's fine, but the assumptions... ehhhh... Remember first that
there was major inflation late in the 14th C after the plague hit.
Then you've got an additional 100 to 200 years before you're at
Shakespeare's time, and I don't think those were any too economically
static, either. Mapping 14th C onto late 16th C may lead to some major
error.
>Can anyone provide a more learned comparison?
Unfortunately, all I can do is deconstruct without a couple hours in
the library. Sorry.
Next?
Angus Mackintosh / Ross M. Dickson, rdic...@acs.ucalgary.ca
David Salley
> A friend and I were reading through Shakespeare's Much Ado About Nothing
> tonight, and there is a mention of a payment of a thousand ducats from Don
> John to Boracio regarding dishonouring Hero (in semblance, at least...) How
> much is this in reality... A lot for a servant, pocket change for a Duke's
> brother, what???
From Webster's 2nd [p795]
"ducat - A gold coin of several countries of Europe, first coined by Roger II
of Sicily about 1150. It is still coined for purposes of foreign trade in
Austria, Czechoslovakia and the Netherlands, at an intrinsic value of
$2.2879 (US), or about 9s. 5d., which was approximately its usual value in
former times."
- Dagonell
SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet : sal...@niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029
Movie Double Feature : "Honey, I Blew Up the Baby" and "Demolition Man"
Contributed by Geoffrey the Quiet
2LT Aryeh JS Nusbacher
> A friend and I were reading through Shakespeare's Much Ado About Nothing
> tonight, and there is a mention of a payment of a thousand ducats from Don
John
> to Boracio regarding dishonouring Hero (in semblance, at least...) How much is
> this in reality... A lot for a servant, pocket change for a Duke's brother,
> what???
I'll have a look to give you a more precise evaluation of English gold angels
to ducats, but in the mean time you could consider a modern literary analogue
for a thousand ducats to be a hundred million yen: some indeterminate but huge
amount of foreign currency.
--
Aryk Nusbacher
Post-Graduate War Studies Programme
Royal Military College of Canada
Gary Heston
[ ... ]
>I am aware, through my studies of maritime history, of several
>merchant bankers that mostly became wealthy by being moneychangers.
>Moneychangers implies that not all coins had the same value, and
>given that wool prices fluctuated, why not money?
I think you'll find that every moneychanger worth a nickle (or
five pence) charged a fee for their services--it could be in the
form of a poor exchange rate, or a flat percentage of the money
changed. Rates always have fluctuated, and in period there were
no controls at all on what they were, not to mention poor communication
about rates between one port and another. The amount being transacted,
as well as how hard the matter was bargained, could also have a
considerable effect on the moneychangers' profit.
To some extent, this all holds true today.
--
Gary Heston SCI Systems, Inc. ga...@sci.com site admin
The Chairman of the Board and the CFO speak for SCI. I'm neither.
If I had Bills' Billions.........
...I'd buy a Delta Clipper!