Norman Shield Size?
Michael Logue
I am currently constructing a Norman (kite) shield. I was wondering what
would be the proper dimensions for such a shield. I understand that the
origonal shields (such as displayed in the Bayeau (sp) tapestry were long
and primarily used on horseback. This would obviously not be a good
porportion for the foot soldier.
Chivarly Sports used to sell an aluminum Norman shield that was 30" x
20".... is this a good size?
Is there any restrictions on shield size within the SCA?
I am a relativly new fighter, so if this effects the size I should use,
please take it into consideration.
Many thanks!
Drud Cunnogwr
mka Michael Logue
RLobinske
No overall shield size restrictions, though you may find restrictions for
particular tourneys. During my fighting days, I commonly used a 24" x 48"
kite. If you do not make the kite long, the narrow taper will leave easy to
hit gaps at your legs. In my opinion, a 30" long kite would be a leg killer.
Historically, even foot soldiers (look at the saxons in the Bayeux Tapestry)
used the long kites.
As a crude rule of thumb, a large shield will help you against inexperienced
opponents, will be of general use against a moderately skilled opponent and
will be used against you by a skilled opponent.
Victor Hildebrand vonn Koln
Trimaris
Ralph Lindberg
<mpl...@SPAMLESS.mindless.com> wrote:
>
>Chivarly Sports used to sell an aluminum Norman shield that was 30" x
>20".... is this a good size?
Depends, I have an oval that is 24by36 that I really like. For a war
shield it might be a little small, for a tourney shield you need to
inquire locally
>Is there any restrictions on shield size within the SCA?
Yes, but if varies so much from kingdom to kingdom, you should check
with your local Marshallate (going by your service it's East Kingdom)
Sargent Hroulag (Ralg) Nilsen
--
Ralph Lindberg N7BSN <n7...@callsign.net> ICQ=.5988954
RV and Camping FAQ <http://kendaco.telebyte.net/rlindber/rv/>
If Windows is the answer, I really want to know what the question is.
Thaddaeus A. Vick
>No overall shield size restrictions, though you may find restrictions for
>particular tourneys. During my fighting days, I commonly used a 24" x 48"
>kite. If you do not make the kite long, the narrow taper will leave easy to
>hit gaps at your legs. In my opinion, a 30" long kite would be a leg killer.
In addition, once you lose your legs and go to your knees the long
tail will run into the ground and make it hard to use your shield.
Hugh the Barefoot
Barony of the South Downs, Meridies
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RLobinske
>tail will run into the ground and make it hard to use your shield.
You said it, plus, it is even easier for an experinced fighter to use the
shield against you.
Zebee Johnstone
Michael Logue <mpl...@SPAMLESS.mindless.com> wrote:
>
>I am currently constructing a Norman (kite) shield. I was wondering what
>would be the proper dimensions for such a shield. I understand that the
>origonal shields (such as displayed in the Bayeau (sp) tapestry were long
>and primarily used on horseback. This would obviously not be a good
>porportion for the foot soldier.
Not for the SCA fighte rno.
This is one of the places where our rules get in the way. A long
kite is fine for someone on their feet, especially in a battle - look
at the Bayeaux Tapestry for examples.
Where it is a problem for an SCA fighter is that when you "lose
a leg" you end up with the tail on the ground and your arm above
your head. Not a problem for a Norman warrior, if someone chopped his
leg with an axe, he'd not be sitting on his calves waiting for "lay on"!
A long shield can be a liability against someone who uses active
shield work - presses and hooks. You will probably find it hard
to do them yourself and be vulnerable to them. Your opponent
doesn't have to yank your shield out of the way, they just have to
throw your timng off enough that your shield is a beat too late
to move to guard, and that's easier to do with a long shield that
his harder to move and heavier.
Kites also seem to be more vulnerable to good high wraps, because
they are dificult to punchblock with. Again, it's likely that this
is an artifact of SCA rules, I think that in the period the shield
was very good, it's just SCA rules that make it less useful.
My take is that in battle (Where people usually aren't worrying
about the finer points of technique and you have shoulder-companions
to guard against sneakier blows) a long kite is a useful thing. IN
a tourney it is excellent against average fighters, especially those
who mistake strength for skill, but can be a liability against
highly skilled ones.
Up to you to decide how much you want to play with accuracy of your
persona/armour and fighting within the limitations compared to how much
you want to maximise your chances of winning by adapting your gear and
style to conform to the best style for our rules. Both approaches are
valid, it's a personal choice as to which gives the most satisfaction.
Silfren
RLobinske
>they are dificult to punchblock with.
With kites, protection from wraps utilizes body twists to bring the shield to
bear. For high wrap shots like a scorpion, you must block with your weapon.
If you go to a slightly "not period" fighting style, you can have good results
with a sword forward stance, with the sword "at rest" held vertically with the
hilt just in front of the face. This provides added high protection. However,
you will need to learn to throw the offensive blows of the "high" hand of a
two-sword style to land a good blow from this position.
>Up to you to decide how much you want to play with accuracy of your
>persona/armour and fighting within the limitations compared to how much
>you want to maximise your chances of winning by adapting your gear and
>style to conform to the best style for our rules. Both approaches are
>valid, it's a personal choice as to which gives the most satisfaction.
>
Exactly, the main goal is to enjoy yourself.
Kyle1axman
(RLobinske) writes:
>
>You said it, plus, it is even easier for an experinced fighter to use the
>shield against you.
>
Well spoken. I love fighting against big shields. Specially those kites. =)
HL William Kyle of the Wilderness (Artemisia)
Squired unto Sir Freewind Bahadur Khara Ghendu (Caid)
Tis better to die for a purpose than to live for none.
David Serhienko
Kyle1axman wrote:
> (RLobinske) writes:
>
> >You said it, plus, it is even easier for an experinced fighter to use the
> >shield against you.
>
> Well spoken. I love fighting against big shields. Specially those kites. =)
>
> HL William Kyle of the Wilderness (Artemisia)
> Squired unto Sir Freewind Bahadur Khara Ghendu (Caid)
Good Lords,might I inquire as to how you use these large shields against their
bearer? I have never faced anything larger than a medium heater. Admittedly, I am
as green as the wood my own new hewn shield is made from, but I think some
information on the topic could come in handy if ever the situation presents.
Yours in service, humility and ignorance =)
=--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--=
David W. Serhienko, soon to be back in North Dakota
Deykin ab Gwion, soon to be in Korsvag-shire,
Northshield, in the Midrealm
"If ignorance is bliss, why am I so miserable?"
=--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--=
Zebee Johnstone
David Serhienko <tig...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>Good Lords,might I inquire as to how you use these large shields against their
>bearer? I have never faced anything larger than a medium heater. Admittedly, I am
>as green as the wood my own new hewn shield is made from, but I think some
>information on the topic could come in handy if ever the situation presents.
See if you can find a copy of the Headless House fighter's handbook,
it talks about presses and hooks.
There are 2 ways to use an opponent's shield against him. Hide behind
it, or slow it down so he can't move it far enough fast enough.
A big shield is easy to hide behind, there's a lot of it :) More of you
that he can't see. More places to move your sword through that are
hidden by his shield, especially if he is moving it up near his eye
level to block a high blow he thinks you are about to throw. And don't
forget, he has to throw a blow around the damn thing too. Make him have
to get around his own shield.
People who have big shields tend to have them to hide behind. What's
sauce for the goose and all that...
The other way is to slow it down, in which I include getting
it out of position.
Suppose you have this big shield. It's big, there is a lot of space
between the shield rim and your hand. Think of the distance between
your elbow and the rim beyond your hand as a lever, with the pivot at
your elbow. The bigger the shield, the longer the lever.
So your opponent reaches out with his shield rim, hooks it behind
your shield rim and pulls your shield wide. You have given him a nice
long lever to use against you - if it was short your muscles could
resist the pull. It's long and they can't. So he can reach, hook,
hit, and the hit goes home because it takes you too long to get
the shield back where it is any use.
Same thing works with a shield press. This time, instead of reaching
inside with his rim and hooking back towards him, he steps forward and
pushes with his rim against yours. this time, your shield pivots into
you, pulling your elbow out from your side, and pushing your front rim
in and maybe down a bit. Oooh look! A sword sized slot! How
useful.... Even if he doesn't push much, you have to get that shield
back into position.
Another way to press is not to bother about moving the shield, stop it
moving! Lean on it. It's big, so it's heavy. Real pain to lift up.
So it's 2/3 of the way through the fight, you are tired... and the
bastard is making your shield even heavier! He doesn't have to do much,
just poke at it a bit, doesn't take much to slow you down that half beat
so that you are a fraction too late in getting it high enough to block
the head blow that just killed you.
People with big shields tend to plant and hide behind them. They are
hard to do active shield work with, and awkward to do fast footwork
with, they get in the way and are heavy. The good fighters I know
all go to smaller and smaller shields because they use more footwork and
more swordblocks, and smaller shields are easier to do active shield
work with - not only presses and hooks, but punchblocks.
Silfren
Kyle1axman
<tig...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>Good Lords,might I inquire as to how you use these large shields against
>their
>bearer? I have never faced anything larger than a medium heater.
>Admittedly, I am
>as green as the wood my own new hewn shield is made from, but I think some
>information on the topic could come in handy if ever the situation presents.
>
There are a couple of factors that will make the difference in your endevours.
First is the fashion in which your opponent is using their shield. Second is
the type of shield.
I have found with many people using kites they tend to eaither blind themselves
or at least set themselves so you may use your body motion to get their shield
in the way of their vision.
As the kites & larger heaters happen to weigh a bit if not considerable more,
response time of a recovery can be effected. By attacking a specific area they
will move the shield to defend against it. Knowing this & they way they will
move it will allow you to start the first blow. While they move to defend
against it, you make the transition mid swing to an alternate blow targeted to
an area they just happened to open up for you. This applicatiojn takes
practice and you must be able to deliver the first blow with authority. They
have to believe the initial shot is a threat. If they know you have a
visciuos wrap they are more likely to commit to the block against the wrap.
Same with other shots that will get the shield to move. They must "bite hard"
on the first blow and you must keep continuos fluid motion of your weapon to
deliver the transitional shot with sufficient force.
Once you see where the shield is moved too for the block you can try the same
shot, they will block the same way most of the time & you change to the
alternate shot or the shot you really wanted.
Same goes for a flat snap or off side snap to the face. Most shields and the
larger ones being a bit more encumbering, tend to be moved to the same place to
block the same shot. Throw the snap & see where they lift or move the shield.
Throw the same snap this time elevating the arm some & angling the blade down.
As you practice this you will see how you can deliver the blow over the top of
the shield & place it with authority on your taget.
I find using a smaller shield against a large shield allows for variations in
shiled hooks that are more difficulkt to do with a larger shield or the kite.
Against the kite throw wraps over the top in succession. The kite tends to get
tabled faster allowing for a quick change on the third to fifth wrap to a leg
or lower body shot.
If they are on their knees with a kite it can be more difficult to move the
shield as their will be contact with the ground & the bottom end of the shield.
Use this to your advantage by changing the angles you throw from making them
get hung up with the ground.
As mentioned in another response are the press & hooks. I love to use those
myself and would add an additional concept.
A lot of fighters (myself included) tend to use one or two blows that strike at
the opening made by the shield hook. Some fighters remember this & learn to be
quick in their recovery against your hook. If you run into this great. Throw
the same shot again & they will recover. Great. Now use the same hook after a
couple of other shots, move your body and or shoulder to immulate the shot you
usually throw. As they recover gues what. The wrap or another choice shot is
open. Take it.
Just a few ideas to get you started. Spend a lot of time practicing form &
motion of your primary shots. If you don't have those down & are known for
being able to throw the shot you won't be able to get your opponent to move
their shield where you want it, so the shot you really want to take is open.
The size of their shiled doesn't matter that much for this to be used.
There are those Kite Fighters out there that know how to beat these methods and
use them. I'd like to hear from them on how they manage to shut this sort of
stuff down.
HL William Kyle of the Wilderness (Artemisia)
Squired unto Sir Freewind Bahadur Khara Ghendu (Caid)
Tis better to die for a purpose than to live for none.
Trevor Barker
> >I am currently constructing a Norman (kite) shield. I was wondering
what
> >would be the proper dimensions for such a shield. I understand that the
> >origonal shields (such as displayed in the Bayeau (sp) tapestry were
long
> >and primarily used on horseback. This would obviously not be a good
> >porportion for the foot soldier.
>
Tapestry)
> used the long kites.
>
> As a crude rule of thumb, a large shield will help you against
inexperienced
> opponents, will be of general use against a moderately skilled opponent
and
> will be used against you by a skilled opponent.
I've used various shapes of shield, although my experiences will be
different from yours because I fought Steel (ie re-enactment style combat
with steel weapons, little armour and pulled blows). I tried a 24" x 48"
kite and, as everyone will tell you, it's OK against beginners and in
melees, but a skilled opponent can beat it.
The salient point is that the kite was designed for a particular job, which
was not single combat on the tourney field. It was either used to protect
the leg (and to strike opponents) while on horseback, or as part of a
shield-wall.
You'll probably find a shorter kite works well once you've got the hang of
moving it to the correct place. The "tail" of the kite is not wonderful
for blocking shots, due to the principle of leverage - the end of the kite
is a long way from your elbow/shoulder, so it takes a lot of force for you
to move it, and not much force for your opponent to move it.
As a Steel fighter, I found that opponents tended to compensate for the
bigger shield by bring their sword in faster - hence bigger bruises on my
left thigh. On the other hand, when facing a row of spears, give me a kite
any day!
Trevor.
--
These are my opinions, not necessarily Logica's.
sheriff (at) weylea (dot) demon.co.uk
RLobinske
1. Use your weapon to protect your head, moving your shield to protect your
head opens you up for the follow-up shot any good fighter will throw.
(Incidently, this actually helped with my transition to two-sword by being
already used to using my sword this way).
2. Don't fight a hook or a press. The mechanical advantage is against you.
Roll or twist with the shield manipulation to move you to a position that you
opponent does not expect. Use your weapon to protect what may be exposed. If
the manuver gives you a clear shot, take it.
3. Learn to use vertial strapping on the shield. Most want to use the typical
45 degree strapping commonly used on heaters. Arrange the straps so that your
forarm is held vertically. This makes keeping the shield up against repeated
hammer blows easier and is less likely to table out. The limits of your arm
movement will prevent the bottom of the shield from being moved very far toward
your weapon side (using a sweep or hook to move the shield toward the weapon
side is an easy way to expose the lead leg). However, this style takes some
training, otherwise you will move your forarm to the 45 degree angle and expose
everything from the hip down.
4. Don't blind yourself.
5. Somebody will always come up with a way to defeat your defenses.
Nat
bearers (was re:norman shield size?)" was very helpful. Is there a web site
that has that kind of advice? And if not, could anyone post fighting tips
for us beginning fighters on the newsgroup? Any response would be
appreciated.
******************************************************
*
*
* Visit my website at: http://www.angelfire.com/me/breac/index.html *
*
*
******************************************************
Talmoor
bearers (was re:norman shield size?)" was very helpful. Is there a web site
that has that kind of advice? And if not, could anyone post fighting tips
for us beginning fighters on the newsgroup? Any response would be
appreciated.
Don't be afraid to be aggresive. More often than not it seems to get you
killed.
Alasdair Mac Roibeirt
House Staghold,
Kingdom of Atenveldt
Talmoor
>killed.
Errr, restate that, Lack of aggresion seems to get you killed. (late night,
lots of ale, several other blanket excuses to cover lapse.
Alasdair Mac Roibeirt
Gregory Kirk
Actually the first statement wasn't that far off for newbie fighters
:), but lack of agression is almost certainly going to get you killed.
Greg
Michael Logue
information concerning tactics is especially helpful.
I've just completed constructing my Norman shield, and sure enough, it's
certainly heavy. I'm actually glad that it is in that it will help me build
up my arm & shoulder strength & speed (which I desperately need!) I figure
that if I can get good with this behemoth, I'll be able to handle a standard
heater that much better. It's certainly going to be more challenging to
master this bad-boy than with a heater.
One other question I have regarding this style of shield: Most of the
illustrations/Illuminations that depict Norman fighters with this shield,
show a shoulder strap that looks like it was used during combat. Although I
would like to appear as period as possible, is this something that would
sensibly work in SCA combat, or would it hinder me too much?
Any way, thanks again for all the good info! I can't wait till everyone
gets back and recovered from Pennsic so I can try it out!
(Now, if I could only make my own helm............)
Kyle1axman
<mpl...@SPAMLESS.mindless.com> writes:
>ne other question I have regarding this style of shield: Most of the
>illustrations/Illuminations that depict Norman fighters with this shield,
>show a shoulder strap that looks like it was used during combat. Although I
>would like to appear as period as possible, is this something that would
>sensibly work in SCA combat, or would it hinder me too much?
>
>Any way, thanks again for all the good info! I can't wait till everyone
>gets back and recovered from Pennsic so I can try it out!
>
>(Now, if I could only make my own helm............)
>
>
I don't know how sensibly used it is in SCA combat. I have seen numerous
people with them at wars. The Abbey in Caid comes to mind.
Bryan J. Maloney
Here's a simple question to ask:
How often was the "Norman" shield used in single foot combat historically?
Was it a foot tournament implement at all?
If not, why not?
--
- "God created women equal with men" ... "There are many women who
are better than men."--St. Kosmas Aitolos
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/bjm10/
Arval d'Espas Nord
> How often was the "Norman" shield used in single foot combat historically?
One assumes that Norman foot soldiers used shields of some kind, Bryan. At
Hastings, only about a third of William's army was cavalry. Take a look at
this panel from the Bayeux Tapestry, for example:
http://rubens.anu.edu.au/laserdisk/0214/21448.JPG
Earlier postings in this thread mentioned studying primary sources to learn
how these shields were used, Bryan; perhaps you ought to read the thread
next time before sneering at it.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mit...@panix.com
Bryan J. Maloney
> > How often was the "Norman" shield used in single foot combat historically?
>
> One assumes that Norman foot soldiers used shields of some kind, Bryan. At
> Hastings, only about a third of William's army was cavalry. Take a look at
> this panel from the Bayeux Tapestry, for example:
And was Hastings a mass battle or single combat?
Kyle1axman
was fought the Normans continued on fighting small skirmishes in Oak Wood as
they continued to chase what remained of the Saxon resistance.
suasuluap...@gmail.com
Basil D
Run away, run away!!!!
~~Basil
PS: here, take some ,,,,,,,...,,,,,
They're free, and you seem to have run out.