Beast Slaying at Pennsic?
Iain and Cassi
Have heard more news concerning the War this year....
Apparantly, a couple of inebriated newbies were staggering back to camp
when they tripped over a 50 pound snapping turtle and slew it with their
battleaxe and spear, and that their shouts of "Kill him! Cut off his
head!!" at 4 am caused quite a stir.
Comments?
Gets way too much info on matters far awway,
Iain
Michelle Roberts
taught the newbies what was appropriate when they first joined, then I
believe a lot of this cr@p would be eliminated.
After all, is this a group to further explore the history and society of the
Middle Ages, or is it a convenient way to obtain sex and booze? We should
come up with a curriculum of basic acceptable behaviour, which information
Chatelaines/Castellans would distribute to new people in their respective
groups, so there was little confusion about how people should behave.
If aspiring drunks and fantasy characters were told at the very beginning,
"This is a group whose primary focus is studying the medieval period by
living it. If your goal is to get drunk or laid, then perhaps another type
of group would be more appropriate for you." Of course, the Chatelaines
can't do this without some kind of sanction from Higher-Ups, i.e. kingdom-
and society-level officials. If any of you Higher Ups read this, what are
your opinions on this matter?
The hardest part, I imagine, would be to decide how "appropriate behaviour"
is defined. Let's not become crippled by our devotion to the flower-power
attitude that everyone is welcome. Everyone is *not* welcome. Those who
compromise the enjoyment and safety of others are not welcome.
To those who wish to harass me for this opinion of mine, please note I used
the pronoun "I", meaning that it is my opinion. I welcome reasonable
responses and rejections to my ideas.
Cumhail Ironsteed
>
> I know I'm stirring up a lot of brouhaha with this suggestion, but if we
> taught the newbies what was appropriate when they first joined, then I
> believe a lot of this cr@p would be eliminated.
>
get drunk and indescriminately kill wildlife. I shouldn't have to. If
I did, would they listen, and if they did not listen, should I punish
them? Get real. Forcing people to act with common sense not only
impossible, but WAY overstepping one's bounds. Sometimes even teaching
by example is fruitless. Let us only hope that these turtle-slayers
reap only woe from their actions and learn what a nithling's act they've
committed, the way that most of us must. First hand.
Cunhail
EXCMairi
>
>Have heard more news concerning the War this year....
>
>Apparantly, a couple of inebriated newbies were staggering back to camp
>when they tripped over a 50 pound snapping turtle and slew it with their
>battleaxe and spear, and that their shouts of "Kill him! Cut off his
>head!!" at 4 am caused quite a stir.
>
>Comments?
That's one whopping rumor!!!
Mairi
Whitey
> After all, is this a group to further explore the history and society >of the Middle Ages, or is it a convenient way to obtain sex and booze? >We should come up with a curriculum of basic acceptable behaviour, >which information Chatelaines/Castellans would distribute to new people >in their respective groups, so there was little confusion about how >people should behave.
for drinking and sex, you're in the wrong place. There are folks at war
who I've noticed never leave their camps and have no other activities
besides drinking and wenching and they really are wasting their time and
money in my opinion cause they can do the same without the expense of
the entry fee and garb.
BUT you cannot legislate morality. If a person who contributes with A&S
functions or fights or does archery etc then decides to spend the
evenings in a place like Pennsic having a few good drinks and carrousing
with fair members of the opposite sex that is the perogative of the
adult.
What is inappropriate for you might be seen as perfectly reasonable for
another person. This is why we have so many problems with modern society
where one group tries to foist its morality off on another.
Besides if you rule out inappropriate behaviour we'd have to kick all
the drunk, half naked tin hats out of the swamp when they visit :)
If someone tells a contributing gentle that his idea of evening fun is
no longer acceptable they are setting themselves up to be the arbiter of
what is right and wrong and quite frankly NO PERSON has the wisdom and
experience for that post be it Royal, Laurel, Priest or Lord of the
Household. So long as they are harming no one, let them enjoy
themselves, what does it hurt?
I speak only for myself as a single male who occasionally likes to drink
and court ladies but also contributes what he can to the Society on the
battlefield.
Dustin - Brewer, Archer, Marshal-wannabe
Clan McGroyne
--
Whitey - Dustin McGroyne - Hey You
These and many more are the pseudonyms of Ed Walker
http://www.his.com/visions whi...@his.com
Game Designer - Entrepreneur - Nice Guy
A member site of the Free RPG webring
Kyle1axman
(EXCMairi) writes:
If it did happen I hope they made a meal out of it. Otherwise it is sensless
violence and akin to children drowning kittens in a bag. Drunk or not, it
seems uncalled for.
HL William Kyle of the Wilderness (Artemisia)
Squired unto Sir Freewind Bahadur Khara Ghendu (Caid)
Tis better to die for a purpose than to live for none.
Michelle Roberts
> BUT you cannot legislate morality.
<SNIP>
M'lord, at no time did I ever say we should dictate morality. If you would again read it, you will, I trust, find that I actually said, "We should come up with a curriculum of basic acceptable behaviour, which information Chatelaines/Castellans would distribute to new people in their respective groups, so there was little confusion about how people should behave."
Basic acceptable behaviour. Not morality. A lowest common denominator, designed to ensure that everyone's right(s) to a good time are protected.
> So long as they are harming no one, let them enjoy
> themselves, what does it hurt?
<SNIP>
I agree completely. I don't care if someone drinks themself into an early grave, that's their concern. It's the ones who get loaded and then hurt someone else that I'm concerned with. I've been to many events where a drunk person infringed on the rights of others. By "rights", I mean the right to remain unmolested or bothered, the right to not have to endure someone's drunken
ramblings and alcoholic breath in one's face, etc.
I have had to dodge puddles of urine and vomit both in and around the Port-O-Johns more times than I would care to have to think about. After volunteering at Troll or the A&S tent for a goodly number of hours at Pennsic, or cooking all day to produce the feast, I have been kept awake by roaming bands of drunks who feel it is their duty to be as loud as they possibly can. In
addition, I have somewhat a more personal stake in it, because during my first Pennsic, some "fine gentle" tried to rape me one evening after a party during which he drank enough booze to souse the entire country of Bolivia. Who is having to deal with the alcohol consumption now? I am. And I'm not alone.
Kyle1axman
<edi...@manitoulin-link.com> writes:
>
>M'lord, at no time did I ever say we should dictate morality. If you would
>again read it, you will, I trust, find that I actually said, "We should come
>up with a curriculum of basic acceptable behaviour, which information
>Chatelaines/Castellans would distribute to new people in their respective
>groups, so there was little confusion about how people should behave."
>
>Basic acceptable behaviour. Not morality. A lowest common denominator,
>designed to ensure that everyone's right(s) to a good time are protected.
>
As I recall all those years back in Darach Shire caid, the chatelaine had a
booklet with info regarding the SCA for newbies. The ideals and concepts of
"proper" or chivalrous & courteous behavior was included in that.
Unfortunately not every new comer is introduced to the chatelaine or hospitler
or what ever they call it in ohter kingdoms. As with many friends, they get
started through other friends and may never be introduced to those peopel who
have accepted the responsability of helping new comers adjust and adapt to the
SCA.
Not always a bad thing, but water does tend to seeks it's own level. If the
SCA is a drunken revel and your friends like what you tell them about it,
chances are that is how it will start for them.
As Cumhail stated (I paraphrase here) we can lead by example and it won't
always work. We need not force our values or morals on others, but we can
share the ideals and hope they will find a nitch in the SCA that is not
extreme unacceptable behavior.
What is acceptable is another thread that could go on forever, if it hasn't
already under many other subject lines.
If we try to get newcomers involved with those people who are set up for
teaching and assisting them in their Shire, Barony, canton, etc... we are doing
everyone a favor.
BetNoir
> Unfortunately not every new comer is introduced to the chatelaine or hospitler
> or what ever they call it in ohter kingdoms. As with many friends, they get
> started through other friends and may never be introduced to those peopel who
> have accepted the responsability of helping new comers adjust and adapt to the
> SCA.
> Not always a bad thing, but water does tend to seeks it's own level.
I do most sincerely hope that you are not implying that people who join
the SCA and don't go through the 'proper channels' (i.e., the Chatelaine
or whomever has similar responsibilities) are somehow going to sink to a
lower level than the everyone else.
For myself, I got started in the SCA via a near and dear friend who I
had known from teaching fencing at Faires for years and years. He
basically said that he thought I would enjoy rapier and why not come to
an event or two to see how things work. He was right, and I did have a
great time, and subsequently joined the SCA.
Never once did I talk with, or receive any help from my Kingdom
Chatelaine. I'm not even certain I could have told you who he/she was.
Certainly not a failing on the part of that individual, but more that I
found that, with the people I was initially introduced to and my years
of working Faires, that I had no need for much of any newbie
orientation.
And I have yet to indulge myself in any sort of inappropriate behavior
at events, even without the benefit of the guidance of a Chatelaine.
So I would insert a gentle caveat that not all people who join the SCA
without the help of a Chatelaine are necessarily going to behave in an
inappropriate fashion.
---
Tiana di Redondo di Caid
NEVER parry with your head
Iain and Cassi
Kyle1axman wrote:
> If it did happen I hope they made a meal out of it. Otherwise it is sensless
> violence and akin to children drowning kittens in a bag. Drunk or not, it
> seems uncalled for.
>
> HL William Kyle of the Wilderness (Artemisia)
> Squired unto Sir Freewind Bahadur Khara Ghendu (Caid)
>
> Tis better to die for a purpose than to live for none.
Greetings!
According to my sources, the people *did* eat it. Othewise I would have hunted
them down myself.
Iain
Bruce Mills
Michelle Roberts <edi...@manitoulin-link.com> wrote:
>If aspiring drunks and fantasy characters were told at the very beginning,
>"This is a group whose primary focus is studying the medieval period by
>living it. If your goal is to get drunk or laid, then perhaps another type
>of group would be more appropriate for you."
Are you of the opinion, good lady, that people did not get drunk and/or
get laid in period?
Akimoya
Ealdormere
Cumhail
>
> As Cumhail stated (I paraphrase here) we can lead by example and it won't
> always work. We need not force our values or morals on others, but we can
> share the ideals and hope they will find a nitch in the SCA that is not
> extreme unacceptable behavior.
>
Once again, you managed to say what I was trying to, only better.
Cumhail
sunshinegirl
. In
> addition, I have somewhat a more personal stake in it, because during my
first Pennsic, some "fine gentle" tried to rape me one evening after a
party during which he drank enough booze to souse the entire country of
Bolivia.
Did you press charges?
Melandra
Kyle1axman
writes:
>
>I do most sincerely hope that you are not implying that people who join
>the SCA and don't go through the 'proper channels' (i.e., the Chatelaine
>or whomever has similar responsibilities) are somehow going to sink to a
>lower level than the everyone else.
>
>For myself, I got started in the SCA via a near and dear friend who I
>had known from teaching fencing at Faires for years and years. He
>basically said that he thought I would enjoy rapier and why not come to
>an event or two to see how things work. He was right, and I did have a
>great time, and subsequently joined the SCA.
>
No. I was simply trying to state that some people that are introduced to the
SCA through freinds that already have a difficult acclimating to the social
interactions of responsable individuals, can often be found to be similar to
those who introduced them to the SCA.
By introducing them through "proper channels, it can but won't always, prevent
perpetuation of the same idiotic drunken social poor and soemtimes unethical
party decisions made at events.
Yes there are those that have no need or have no threat of being a flatulating
butthead at a revel or event. There are those that would never deem it
appropriate to get drunk & puke on the Royal Throne, peek up the Queens dress,
or not take no as an answer from a lady or any other foul uncourteous behavior.
Unfortunately those that do, tend to have friends of the same mind set, though
admittedly not sall of their friends may be that way. Be it posative or
negative, water tends to seeks it's own level.
Not every one needs the guidance of the "proper channel" but it doesn't hurt
to introduce them to those channels in most instances.
Cumhail Ironsteed
>
> Kyle1axman wrote:
>
> > If it did happen I hope they made a meal out of it. Otherwise it is sensless
> > violence and akin to children drowning kittens in a bag. Drunk or not, it
> > seems uncalled for.
> >
> > Squired unto Sir Freewind Bahadur Khara Ghendu (Caid)
> >
> > Tis better to die for a purpose than to live for none.
>
>
> According to my sources, the people *did* eat it. Othewise I would have hunted
> them down myself.
>
made a candy dish from it's carapace. Unless the food was needed it WAS
senseless slaughter. If those children in Kyle's analogy took that
drowned kitten and ate it, their behavior would be no less heinous.
Kill something because you have to eat, don't eat something just because
you killed it.
Cumhail
Susan Rankin
>
>I speak only for myself as a single male who occasionally likes to drink
>and court ladies but also contributes what he can to the Society on the
>battlefield.
>
>Dustin - Brewer, Archer, Marshal-wannabe
>Clan McGroyne
This statement is all well and good, but we were talking about a couple of silly
drunks slaying a turtle because -they- tripped over it due to their meade goggles. We're
talking about stupid behaviour, not general partying. Suppose the beastie had been of an
endangered species? Could have been trouble. Unfortunately, there is no knowne cure for
stupidity. *sigh* I think the message here is, "drink responsibly, think wisely."
Luta
william thomas powers
Una Tortuga?
my favorite line from a Zorro movie
thomas
Iain and Cassi
Cumhail Ironsteed wrote:
> I don't give a crap if they ate it, rendered its eyeballs for soap and
> made a candy dish from it's carapace. Unless the food was needed it WAS
> senseless slaughter. If those children in Kyle's analogy took that
> drowned kitten and ate it, their behavior would be no less heinous.
> Kill something because you have to eat, don't eat something just because
> you killed it.
>
> Cumhail
Greetings!
Perhaps they were attacked and, in the heat of the moment, chose to defend other than
run....?
Iain
Cumhail Ironsteed
>
>
> Perhaps they were attacked and, in the heat of the moment, chose to defend other than
> run....?
I guess they could have been thinning out the herd, too.
Cumhail
Naomi Gayle Rivkis
> This statement is all well and good, but we were talking about a
>couple of silly >drunks slaying a turtle because -they- tripped over
>it due to their meade goggles. We're >talking about stupid behaviour,
>not general partying. Suppose the beastie had been of an >endangered
>species? Could have been trouble. Unfortunately, there is no knowne
>cure for >stupidity. *sigh* I think the message here is, "drink
>responsibly, think wisely."
I thought we were talking about a fifty-pound snapping turtle
here? If I came face to face in the dark with a wild animal
half my size and behaving aggressively, damn right I would kill
it if I thought I could. The next thing it met might've been a
small child, who could take serious damage. Nobody I've ever
heard of has prosecuted even an endangered species case when
there was a clear self-defense need involved.
Let's please not forget that food is *not* the only justifiable
reason to kill. Preserving your own or another's life is the
only justifiable reason to kill; food is one common aspect of
that. Protection from something wild, vicious, and capable of
causing grave injury is another.
> Luta
-Naomi aka
Kateline Grayveson
Sahara Jibra'il
--
The only way to become entirely impersonal is to be dead, and one
then makes a poor observer.
Anonymous
Michelle Roberts
Baiting me deliberately is tiresome. Since you seem to need excruciatingly
clear definitions, I will elaborate.
People engaged in sex quite a bit in period. Since we are here in this present
time, we ourselves are proof of that. And people drank and got drunk rather
often too. The difference in what I am talking about is that the SCA is an
artificial institution, created to study the Middle Ages, of Europe and its
surrounding cultures. It is *not* a group formed for the express purposes of
drinking or having sex.
If you want to explore, in depth, Medieval Life by living it, if you want to
meet and interact with others who share your interests in history and society,
then join the SCA. If, on the other hand, you want easy access to alcohol, join
the Beer of the Month club or work at a liquor shop. If you want easy sex, then
join a swingers' club or save your pennies to pay for a hooker.
My main point (which, m'sieur Akimoya, you have missed completely) is this: We
need to take a more active role in newbies' SCA experience early on. If we
educated new people as to the basic and bare minimum of courtesy and respect
is, and *defined* "courtesy" and "respect" so there was no confusion, then we
might not have people with little or no redeeming qualities to the SCA getting
loaded, then acting like morons... If we gave them active help in finding a
persona and garb, then we might not have people wandering around in elf ears
protesting that they were never told that elves aren't period.
And, if there are people who are educated in a common denominator of behaviour
but who act poorly anyway, they can't protest ignorance when their actions are
objected to. Assuming people know how to behave in a mannerly and respectful
fashion is foolish-- one can't assume anything, especially in the SCA where we
have so many dichotomies and iconoclasts. That dirty barbarian-looking fellow
over there could be the epitome of politesse and manners, whereas the lady in
finest Elizabethan garb could be the rudest and most graceless harridan in the
kingdom.
There are no stereotypes in the SCA. You can't pick out one person as a
potential troublemaker and warn them alone. You have to get everyone when
they're equals-- at the beginning, when they need a bit of direction. If
someone had come to me when I was new, had given me some guidance, my early
experience(s) in the SCA would have been vastly improved.
And now that I've vented my spleen, I remain,
Marguerite de Bordeaux, crabby virago (when my event is ruined by obnoxious
jerks, that is)
Michelle Roberts
No, I beat the crap out of him. I felt much better after that, and didn't want
to deal with the hassle of Security, the Coopers, the police, inquisition-- I
mean, indictment, trial, etc. He wasn't worth the hassle. Still isn't.
rowa...@my-dejanews.com
> >If aspiring drunks and fantasy characters were told at the very beginning,
> >"This is a group whose primary focus is studying the medieval period by
> >living it. If your goal is to get drunk or laid, then perhaps another type
> >of group would be more appropriate for you."
>
> Are you of the opinion, good lady, that people did not get drunk and/or
> get laid in period?
>
> Akimoya
> Ealdormere
>
Oh, touche! I understand the concern of the original poster, but that's a
great riposte.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
sunshinegirl
It is *not* a group formed for the express purposes of
> drinking or having sex.
About 4 years ago, some months after it had happened, I discovered that my
then 11 year old son had been filmed and interviewed for a student
documentary film project on the SCA.
The film was shot at Potrero War, in Calafia, Caid.
Interviewer: And what happens at night?
Son: Oh, everybody parties and gets drunk. (Pause) I don't think we'll
get drunk, though.
My kids didn't go to war with me too often after that...
Melandra of the Woods, who has never gotten drunk in her life.
Tanya Guptill
Yes, self defense is a very strong and realistic reason to kill. I just
have to wonder how slow those two drunks were that they couldn't get out
of the range of a turle's mouth. Fast They Ain't. :)
Mira
Naomi Gayle Rivkis
Michelle Roberts <edi...@manitoulin-link.com> wrote:
>> > addition, I have somewhat a more personal stake in it, because during my
>> first Pennsic, some "fine gentle" tried to rape me one evening after a
>> party during which he drank enough booze to souse the entire country of
>> Bolivia.
>>
>> Did you press charges?
>
Sounds like the best way to press charges to me. I was nervous
about such things before I went to Pennsic (I've had some very
bad experiences with similar situations in SF fannish circles
and am aware that there exists a considerable overlap of popu-
lation), and I'm not particularly effective at beating the crap
out of people. When I asked advice, I was told, "Scream. If you
scream for help at Pennsic it's guaranteed that there will within
seconds be a large crowd of armed people gathered at your location
demanding to know what the fuck is going on, and perfectly ready
to beat the crap out of the offender for you once they find out."
Haven't had to use it yet, but having seen some of the more
honorable behavior of many of the good gentles at Pennsic, I
believe it.
Heather Rose Jones
: I thought we were talking about a fifty-pound snapping turtle
: here? If I came face to face in the dark with a wild animal
: half my size and behaving aggressively, damn right I would kill
: it if I thought I could. The next thing it met might've been a
: small child, who could take serious damage. Nobody I've ever
: heard of has prosecuted even an endangered species case when
: there was a clear self-defense need involved.
Whoa! This is a _turtle_ we're talking about. Remember? The very epitome
of glacial movement? I find it pretty much impossible to visualize a
situation where protecting one's self from the "attack" of a fifty-pound
snapping turtle could not be accomplished by a leisurely stroll in the
opposite direction. And if you think the creature might present a hazard
to small children, notify the proper authorities and have it relocated.
Mind you, I'm not convined that this thread isn't a deliberate invention
just to stir things up for someone's amusement.
Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn
Susan Davis
In a previous article, ri...@midway.uchicago.edu (Naomi Gayle Rivkis) says:
>In article <6rhdh8$t2r$5...@picasso.op.net>, Susan Rankin <sra...@op.net> wrote:
>
>> This statement is all well and good, but we were talking about a
>>couple of silly >drunks slaying a turtle because -they- tripped over
>>it due to their meade goggles.
>
>here? If I came face to face in the dark with a wild animal
>half my size and behaving aggressively, damn right I would kill
>it if I thought I could.
Did anyone actually witness the purported encounter? My family lives
a few minutes down the road from Portersville, and I am rather surprised
to learn of a species of turtle native to the area that can grow large
enough to be tripped over, let alone to 50+ pounds....
(Of course, I'm no zoologist. Hmm. I'll have to ask one of the park
rangers the next time I visit Lake Arthur....)
--
___ Susan Davis <s...@sue.net> <ak...@po.cwru.edu> ___
\X/ http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/6768 \X/
mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu
>>This statement is all well and good, but we were talking about a
>>couple of silly drunks slaying a turtle because -they- tripped over
>>it due to their meade goggles.
>I thought we were talking about a fifty-pound snapping turtle
>here? If I came face to face in the dark with a wild animal
>half my size and behaving aggressively, damn right I would kill
>it if I thought I could.
A fifty pound snapping turtle is less than a foot at the shoulder,
/maybe/ three foot tail to snout and moves at, what, 2 miles per
hour all out?
>The next thing it met might've been a
>small child, who could take serious damage.
So, if you are alone, which these two "gentles" were not, go to the
nearest camp, recruit somebody, give the turtle a stick to chew on
and get him back/forward to the pond he came from/was going to.
Why does violence seem to always be the first sol'n that comes to mind?
>Let's please not forget that food is *not* the only justifiable
>reason to kill. Preserving your own or another's life is the
>only justifiable reason to kill; food is one common aspect of
>that. Protection from something wild, vicious, and capable of
>causing grave injury is another.
In this particular case I doubt such a philosophical thought crossed
their mind.
Robert
Naomi Gayle Rivkis
Tanya Guptill <tgup...@teleport.com> wrote:
>M'lady,
>
>Yes, self defense is a very strong and realistic reason to kill. I just
>have to wonder how slow those two drunks were that they couldn't get out
>of the range of a turle's mouth. Fast They Ain't. :)
Okay, you've got a point here. :) Still, if it were me, I'd
have to wonder who or what the next thing that got within
range of that turtle's mouth might be. Someone's toddler,
perhaps, who didn't know enough to run?
Most likely, my own instinct would've been to get out of
the way, and get security ASAP to deal with a dangerous
wild animal on the premises.
>Mira
Iain and Cassi
Cumhail Ironsteed wrote:
Greetings!
Turns out they WERE attacked. Granted, turtles aren't the fastest creatures on the face of
the earth, but were I faced with a 50+ lbs snapping turtle, I'd probably kill it.... sober
or drunk.
Of course, knowing my luck, I'd get my butt kicked...... *LOL*
Iain
Richard L Thomas
>
> > Greetings!
> >
> > Have heard more news concerning the War this year....
> >
> > Apparantly, a couple of inebriated newbies were staggering back to camp
> > when they tripped over a 50 pound snapping turtle and slew it with their
> > battleaxe and spear, and that their shouts of "Kill him! Cut off his
> > head!!" at 4 am caused quite a stir.
> >
> > Comments?
As long as they took it home and ate it, who cares?
Or is that just the Cajun in me talking?
Aeth
Rich Weissler
Mills) wrote:
>In article <35DB04E7...@manitoulin-link.com>,
>Michelle Roberts <edi...@manitoulin-link.com> wrote:
>
>>If aspiring drunks and fantasy characters were told at the very beginning,
>>"This is a group whose primary focus is studying the medieval period by
>>living it. If your goal is to get drunk or laid, then perhaps another type
>>of group would be more appropriate for you."
>
>Are you of the opinion, good lady, that people did not get drunk and/or
>get laid in period?
>
>Akimoya
>Ealdormere
As a matter of fact some people did exactly that...
... and some people forceable removed body parts from other humans.
... and some people tied cats to trees and killed them with thier
heads with their hands tied behind thier back ("A Mirror too Far"...
(?) I think that's the reference... not a primary source... but the
100 year war was going on ... it wasn't a high point of humanity.)
... and some people died of plague.
When I joined the SCA, I was told the society recreated the Middle
Ages the way they should have been. I enjoy the SCA because it
usually attacts, on average, a "better" slice of humanity than I can
meet anywhere else. Pennsic is the one event I know of where the mix
of people isn't "better" than society in general. Actually, I have
begun to refer to night time during the second week at Pennsic as a
Frat party rather than an SCA event. (There are exceptions, but it
only takes a small percentage of "bad apples" to spoil Pennsic for
other people.)
Yes, some people enjoy drinking and getting laid. Some people don't.
The people who don't pursue that object generally do not, by the act
of not doing it, ruin the fun of those who do enjoy it. The people
who do enjoy it, are perceived to ruin the fun for the folks who don't
enjoy it.
Personally, I'm just planning to avoid the second week of the war as
much as I can. I'll stay for the first week, and have fun - but will
try to get out of camp before the "frat-like" folks arrive. The game
they play isn't the game I play. The dream they serve is not the
dream I serve. I'll miss fighting the battles and attending classes,
but there are other events. Perhaps, someday, there will be a
"Pennsic-like" event for people who play the same game.
Sincerely,
Rasimus the Innocent
Michelle Roberts
rowa...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > >If aspiring drunks and fantasy characters were told at the very beginning,
> > >"This is a group whose primary focus is studying the medieval period by
> > >living it. If your goal is to get drunk or laid, then perhaps another type
> > >of group would be more appropriate for you."
> >
> > Are you of the opinion, good lady, that people did not get drunk and/or
> > get laid in period?
> >
> > Akimoya
> > Ealdormere
> >
>
> Oh, touche! I understand the concern of the original poster, but that's a
> great riposte.
>
No, that's an asinine riposte, made to be purposefully obtuse and obnoxious.
There's always got to be one person who can't stay on topic, but has to be a
smart@$$ for no other reason than to annoy others.
Michelle Roberts
Naomi Gayle Rivkis wrote:
> Sounds like the best way to press charges to me. I was nervous
> about such things before I went to Pennsic (I've had some very
> bad experiences with similar situations in SF fannish circles
> and am aware that there exists a considerable overlap of popu-
> lation), and I'm not particularly effective at beating the crap
> out of people. When I asked advice, I was told, "Scream. If you
> scream for help at Pennsic it's guaranteed that there will within
> seconds be a large crowd of armed people gathered at your location
> demanding to know what the fuck is going on, and perfectly ready
> to beat the crap out of the offender for you once they find out."
>
> Haven't had to use it yet, but having seen some of the more
> honorable behavior of many of the good gentles at Pennsic, I
> believe it.
>
> -Naomi aka
> Kateline Grayveson
> Sahara Jibra'il
>
That's a good way to handle it too, but I personally like to take more active
participation in things which affect me-- screaming and waiting for others to
help is just too passive/1950's/girly to suit my taste. Just remember: ears, and
testicles pull off rather easily, if you hang onto them strongly enough.
Just a little advice from Aunt Marguerite, who has needed these words of wisdom
in the past, because some men simply can't comprehend that "leave me alone, you
disgusting bugger" means "no".
Curtis Smith
---much snippage from Beast Slaying thread --
> We need to take a more active role in newbies' SCA experience early on.
> If someone had come to me when I was new, had given me some guidance, my early
> experience(s) in the SCA would have been vastly improved.
Nobel sentiments my lady. If this were only true my initial experience
with the SCA
Would be much better than it is now. I am a newby (been to 3 events,
inc. 2 wars)
I find that many of the SCA people don't seem to want to answer even
basic questions.
It is either beneath them or they don't want to be distracted from their
party. This
has me thinking that this SCA thing isn't worth bothering with due to
the snobs
and the drunks.
However there are a few (definitely in the minority) that are friendly
enough and
willing enough to answer basic questions that I may continue (I'll give
it one
more try). I am very interested in history, the middle ages, and
particularly
the music. However the SCA is not just history research. It is a
mini-society.
This society seems to have the assumption that you just know what is
going on,
even if you just walked in.
On the Beast Slaying tread itself:
How come the assumption the perpetrators of the crime (if it even
happened)
Were newbies? In my NOT extensive experience I have seen similar
(though
not as emotionally charged) ignoble actions by supposed long time
members.
There seems to be a strong segment of the SCA population that goes by
the
motto "we are fighters, we fight and we drink and nothing else is
important."
Curtis
Kyle1axman
(Susan Davis) writes:
>
>Did anyone actually witness the purported encounter? My family lives
>a few minutes down the road from Portersville, and I am rather surprised
>to learn of a species of turtle native to the area that can grow large
>enough to be tripped over, let alone to 50+ pounds....
>
Of course it could have been a rock that while drunk and stumbling in the dark
could have been mistaken for a turtle.
All hail pseudo turtle rock bane.... Slayer of foul stones and pebbles that
trip drunken reveling sots...
I can see the super hero now, in tights & late Italian Ren garb, a codpeace
hammered to replicate the shell of the foul rocks that poae as turtles on the
evening trails.
Just got carried away. maybe the initial report did too.
Bill Herron
> When I asked advice, I was told, "Scream. If you
> scream for help at Pennsic it's guaranteed that there will within
> seconds be a large crowd of armed people gathered at your location
> demanding to know what the fuck is going on, and perfectly ready
> to beat the crap out of the offender for you once they find out."
I used to give the same advice to the young women at our events. I told
them
that, even if they're just scared and don't really feel in danger yet, go
ahead and
scream. Better to get the attention focused on your situation.
I also cautioned them that screaming "rape" late in the evening at an event
tends to bring all sorts of people running (usually with very little
clothing and
lots of weapons) and that it was important never to do this as a joke.
There
was the chance that, coming upon a "him" and a "her" with the "her"
screaming rape, some of these people might just kill the "him" without
finding
out what the problem really was.
I don't remember any deaths. I also don't remember any loud screams of
rape.
HL William FitzBubba
Carolingia, East
Jonathan E. Feinstein
Kyle1axman wrote in message
>Of course it could have been a rock that while drunk and stumbling in the
dark
>could have been mistaken for a turtle.
I usually try to avoid the drunken rocks as they stumble in the dark at
Pennsic...
Francis A. Ney, Jr
> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 17:54:15 -0400
>
>
> > If it did happen I hope they made a meal out of it. Otherwise it is sensless
> > violence and akin to children drowning kittens in a bag. Drunk or not, it
> > seems uncalled for.
>
> them down myself.
Snapper soup, yum.
I've got one wandering around the wet areas of the farm that's a big as a
(pickup) truck tire. Probably about 80 pounds. Ran over him with a full-size
van as he was sunning himself in the road -- didn't faze him one bit. He hissed
at the van and slunk off into the woods.
If I see him again, he'll be dinner. For the next week.
Frank Ney N4ZHG WV/EMT-B VA/EMT-A LPWV NRA(L) GOA CCRKBA JPFO
Francis du Chalfont, Journeyman Chirurgeon
Are you ready for the BIG GLITCH? http://millenia-bcs.com/cassief.htm#TOP
Abuses by the BATF http://www.access.digex.net/~croaker/batfabus.html
Bruce Mills
Michelle Roberts <edi...@manitoulin-link.com> wrote:
>Baiting me deliberately is tiresome. Since you seem to need excruciatingly
>clear definitions, I will elaborate.
[snip]
Obviously, not tiresome enough...
Akimoya
Peter O'Briaroak
my
>> first Pennsic, some "fine gentle" tried to rape me one evening after a
>> party during which he drank enough booze to souse the entire country of
>> Bolivia.
>>
>> Did you press charges?
>
want
>to deal with the hassle of Security, the Coopers, the police, inquisition--
I
>mean, indictment, trial, etc. He wasn't worth the hassle. Still isn't.
How interesting...
So what happens when this man rapes another person? After you? You had a
chance to stop a rapist and you failed. this makes you just as much a rapist
and sadist as the man who tried to rape you. you are forcing another woman
to become a victim. you are sick.
Bruce Mills
Michelle Roberts <edi...@manitoulin-link.com> wrote:
>No, that's an asinine riposte, made to be purposefully obtuse and
>obnoxious. There's always got to be one person who can't stay on
>topic but has to be a smart@$$ for no other reason than to annoy
>others.
My good lady, you certainly have me pegged, lock, stock and barrel. You
must be exceptionally perceptive, having posted here for all of what, 2
days (at least under this name)?
I bow to your superiority as ruler and arbiter of this newsgroup.
Your humble servant,
Matsumoto Akimoya
Ealdormere
Bronwynmgn
Weissler) writes:
>Personally, I'm just planning to avoid the second week of the war as
>much as I can. I'll stay for the first week, and have fun - but will
>try to get out of camp before the "frat-like" folks arrive. The game
>they play isn't the game I play. The dream they serve is not the
>dream I serve. I'll miss fighting the battles and attending classes,
>but there are other events. Perhaps, someday, there will be a
>"Pennsic-like" event for people who play the same game.
>
>
There's no need to leave Pennsic for the second week to avoid the "frat-party".
Just don't go down to the swamp at night, or to any parties. I haven't gone
to a party other than a bardic circle for 5 years. Stay at Pennsic, fight and
take classes during the day, go to bardic circles, the enchanted ground, or
dancing in the barn at night. You will rarely encounter any frat-party
mentality except to move out of it's way if it staggers down the road on it's
way home.
Brangwayna
EXCMairi
a 50 lb. snapping turtle out at Coopers Lake??? Sounds like an "urban myth" to
me...
Mairi (lived in Autocrats Point and never heard a word about this one)
Susan Rankin
says...
>
>Greetings!
>
>Perhaps they were attacked and, in the heat of the moment, chose to defend other than
>run....?
>
>
<humor>
"Help! Help! I'm being chased by a turtle! *trips over a rock!* Oh! I am
certainly finished now!"
</humor>
Deplorable! Simply deplorable!
Luta
Susan Rankin
> Greetings!
>
>Turns out they WERE attacked. Granted, turtles aren't the fastest creatures on the face of
>the earth, but were I faced with a 50+ lbs snapping turtle, I'd probably kill it.... sober
>or drunk.
>
>Of course, knowing my luck, I'd get my butt kicked...... *LOL*
>
>Iain
LOL! They were attacked? Again..."Help! Help! I'm being chased by a turtle!"
They really should have just watched where they were walking! Besides, how long can a
turtle be that angry before it forgets? They just really ought to have left it alone.
Luta
Susan Rankin
>I thought we were talking about a fifty-pound snapping turtle
>here? If I came face to face in the dark with a wild animal
>half my size and behaving aggressively, damn right I would kill
>it if I thought I could.
How about leaving a few gentles to watch the turtle and keep others away from
it while sending one gentle off to fetch the autocrat who could have contacted animal
control? I would have to think that, if they killed it with daggers, they have had to get rather
close to it and risk getting bitten...not real intelligent in my book. Soup, to me, ain't worth
getting bitten for!
Luta
Michelle Roberts
> My good lady, you certainly have me pegged, lock, stock and barrel. You
> must be exceptionally perceptive, having posted here for all of what, 2
> days (at least under this name)?
>
> I bow to your superiority as ruler and arbiter of this newsgroup.
>
> Your humble servant,
> Matsumoto Akimoya
> Ealdormere
Mmm, good and snotty, very juvenile-- I like it, 2 points for Aki there. As
for your kind compliment about being perceptive, Lord Akimoya, I give you
thanks for it. It's always nice to be appreciated.
However, I am puzzled: are you saying that, just because of my hiatus from
the Rialto of about 2 years (I was a very enthusiastic reader and occasional
poster for a good while) and change of persona name, I no longer have the
right in this (supposedly) democratic age and world to include my outlook on
certain things? How are you, m'sieur, better qualified than I to voice an
opinion? Is it something you can put on a resume? Please reply promptly,
because I am very eager to know in which categories I am lacking as a human
with a pulse that my feelings are discounted completely, just because you
don't recognize my name.
Regards,
Marguerite de Bordeaux
Susan Rankin
>
>Mind you, I'm not convined that this thread isn't a deliberate invention
>just to stir things up for someone's amusement.
>
>Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn
Actuyally, I'm starting to feel a bit amused m'self! Imagine if the fifty pound
fellow had been in the path of the Fools' Parade! "Look out! It may breath fire! Or, at the
very least, some foul stench!"
Luta
Susan Rankin
says...
>
>Of course it could have been a rock that while drunk and stumbling in the dark
>could have been mistaken for a turtle.
Rumor has it though, that they ate it...I hope they have good dentists!
>I can see the super hero now, in tights & late Italian Ren garb, a codpeace
>hammered to replicate the shell of the foul rocks that poae as turtles on the
>evening trails.
LOL! o/~ Obstacle Man, Obstacle Man, Slaying rocks with just one hand...o/~
Luta
Richard L Thomas
>
> Why does violence seem to always be the first sol'n that comes to mind?
>
Are you seriously asking this question to a bunch of midEVILists?
MOOHAHAHAHAHA (evil laugh) ;)
Aeth
Cumhail Ironsteed
>
> Baiting me deliberately is tiresome. Since you seem to need excruciatingly
> clear definitions, I will elaborate.
Rialto subscribers should have this statement saved to a macro!
Cumhail
Cumhail Ironsteed
>
> I thought we were talking about a fifty-pound snapping turtle
> here? If I came face to face in the dark with a wild animal
> half my size and behaving aggressively, damn right I would kill
> it if I thought I could. The next thing it met might've been a
> small child, who could take serious damage. Nobody I've ever
> heard of has prosecuted even an endangered species case when
> there was a clear self-defense need involved.
>
Self defense against a large turtle? I've been, and taken my
children diving amongst much larger turtles with no mishap. "It looks
dangerous so I'll kill it!" is almost as ludicrous as "It might be
dangerous to someone, someday, so I'll kill it!"
Cumhail
Lyle Gray
snapping turtle while drunk, so I don't know what I would do
_while_drunk_...
If I had encountered a snapping turtle of _any_ size while sober, I
would have used or arranged a relocation. I've done this in other
situations. I certainly would not have left it there by itself.
Snapping turtles are most dangerous when they're on land (they don't
generally feel threatened when they're in the water), and they usually
only come on land to lay eggs, which can add to their irritability.
Isn't there already a rule about bringing/using live animals for food
at Pennsic?
As far as "giving the turtle a stick and leading it away" -- you need
a big stick. The jaws of a snapping turtle are very strong.
As far as how fast a snapping turtle can move -- they can't _walk_
fast, but you're in range of that beak long before you expect to be
(long neck), and the head can move faster than most people can track.
Also, the head can reach most places on the shell, so you can't pick
it up by hand safely.
Also, as far as that neck goes, a snapping turtle is one of the few
turtles that can right itself when it has been flipped over, using
just its head and neck. Very impressive to watch, but not something I
want to see very often, especially with a large one.
So, all of those jokes aside, you don't play games with those things.
More info than you've ever wanted, I'm sure.
--
------------------------------------------------------ NON ANIMAM CONTINE
Lyle H. Gray gray @ cs . umass . edu (text only)
--(My opinions are my own, and do not represent my employer's opinions)--
Spam bait: postm...@warez.eu.org, ab...@warez.phantom.com
Naomi Gayle Rivkis
Snappers, not just turtles? In my experience with snapping
turtles, they're *much* faster than others -- over short
distances, capable of actual running -- and they bite hard
and often.
>Cumhail
-Naomi aka
Kateline Grayveson
Sahara Jibra'il
--
The only way to become entirely impersonal is to be dead, and one
then makes a poor observer.
Anonymous
Iain and Cassi
> >Mind you, I'm not convined that this thread isn't a deliberate invention
> >just to stir things up for someone's amusement.
> >
> >Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn
>
> Actuyally, I'm starting to feel a bit amused m'self! Imagine if the fifty pound
> fellow had been in the path of the Fools' Parade! "Look out! It may breath fire! Or, at the
> very least, some foul stench!"
Greetings!
I am the original poster of this, and it was a question more than anything. At any rate, the
fabulous Bard and Storyteller Andrew MacRobb of RevelWood has already published a song concerning
this particular event. If you are fortunate enough to know him or know of him, I'd recommend you
ask him to perform it for you one day!
Iain
Iain and Cassi
> How about leaving a few gentles to watch the turtle and keep others away from
> it while sending one gentle off to fetch the autocrat who could have contacted animal
> control? I would have to think that, if they killed it with daggers, they have had to get rather
> close to it and risk getting bitten...not real intelligent in my book. Soup, to me, ain't worth
> getting bitten for!
>
> Luta
Greetings!
In hindsight, that would have been the most acceptable solution, of course! But two healthy lads,
even though armed with axe and spear, I still would have put my money on the turtle.... *LOL*
Iain
mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu
>As far as "giving the turtle a stick and leading it away" -- you need
>a big stick. The jaws of a snapping turtle are very strong.
When I wrote "give it a stick" I meant to give it something to keep it
occupied while you used large poles to put the thing in a box or on a
large plank to move it.
>As far as how fast a snapping turtle can move -- they can't _walk_
>fast, but you're in range of that beak long before you expect to be
>(long neck), and the head can move faster than most people can track.
>Also, the head can reach most places on the shell, so you can't pick
>it up by hand safely.
What I was trying to convey was the lack of immediate risk, I would never
get within reach of a snapper that size. Further hint for the slow
to learn, if you grab a snapper by its tail you may find your leg
attached to its jaws...
>So, all of those jokes aside, you don't play games with those things.
Amen to that. These aren't sea turtles we're talking about here.
Robert the pilegrim
Iain and Cassi
> LOL! They were attacked? Again..."Help! Help! I'm being chased by a turtle!"
> They really should have just watched where they were walking! Besides, how long can a
> turtle be that angry before it forgets? They just really ought to have left it alone.
>
> Luta
Greetings!
Again, in hindsight, I agree (and I am an AVID hunter and member of the NRA, dammit! *LOL*)
But seriously, snappers can be NASTY! I had one roughly the size of a Playmate cooler come
after me one day while fishing. I never thought I could get 220 pounds of human up a tree so
quickly! *LOL* It was embarassing, but fortunately, no one came to my rescue. I was in that
tree for the better part of three hours. Had it been any longer, I fear the tutrle would have
evolved right then and there with some sort of ability to climb trees.... That was a LONG 3
hours!
Enjoying my limbs, digits and other things the way they are,
Iain
Iain and Cassi
Susan Rankin wrote:
> <humor>
>
> "Help! Help! I'm being chased by a turtle! *trips over a rock!* Oh! I am
> certainly finished now!"
>
> </humor>
Greetings!
*LOL* I thing the proper tags would be
<sarcasm>
</sarcasm>
Either way, I applaud you!
Iain
John T Dillon
I have seen one the size of the one at Pennsic take a two inch gash out of a
steel belted radial. The driver parked too close, not realizing that the
funny shaped rock in the grass was actually a turtle.
I have had one gnaw through a 2x3 that I was using to drag it out of the road
and back to the swamp. A neighbor of mine had to have fingers reattached
after trying to pick up one of these turtles by the back of the shell.
It should have been relocated, but it was a significant hazard if it was
somewhere that a pedestrian on a darkened road might take it for a rock...
Snapping turtles have been known to eat ducklings, fish, and pretty much
anything they can get their beaks around. They are not the large friendly
sea turtles or tortoises that some people think of when they think of large
turtles. They are worth giving a reasonably wide bearth.
John
Grizzly
EXCMairi wrote:
Actually, it is very possible for that to happen. I have seen huge snapping turtles
in a park in Philadelphia. When I worked at the Philly Zoo I was also called out
to help capture and relocate some animals from areas that you would not think to
find there. So Considering the great distances some turtles travel to find
food/mates/homes; and that nice lake/creek/stream right there on sight. I would
not be surprised. The turle could have traveled down the creek and then got out
and strolled along the ground (if a turtle movement could be considered strolling)
and been found out on the ground while doing so. Now 50 lbs is a huge turtle, that
I would find hard to believe. 20 maybe 30 yes.
Grizzly
****Grizzly bears are omnivorous. 80% of their diet is roots, bugs and plants. The
other 20% is meat. So when you see a Grizzly looking at you he is not seeing a
person. He sees his 20%.****
ErichAwful
>As far as "giving the turtle a stick and leading it away" -- you need
>a big stick. The jaws of a snapping turtle are very strong.
Coming up the Colonial Parkway from Jamestown this spring, my wife spotted a
snapper on the road. My bokken now has a set of beak-marks, from where she used
it as a pacifier while I lugged it over to the side of the road.
Erich
Ld Erich von Kleinfeld, CGD
Knight Marshall, Barony of Stierbach (Atlantia)
Zweihander don't kill people, doppelsoldner do.
Michelle Roberts
> How interesting...
> So what happens when this man rapes another person? After you? You had a
> chance to stop a rapist and you failed. this makes you just as much a rapist
> and sadist as the man who tried to rape you. you are forcing another woman
> to become a victim. you are sick.
Thank you, I do try my best. Your comforting words are truly a balm to the abuse
I suffered that evening. Wow, I never knew I was such a terrible person-- here I
thought I was just trying to survive what happened. It turns out that, in
addition to being dragged to the ground, having my pants ripped off, my body
violated in one way and nearly violated in another, my basic rights to freedom
and choice completely and totally disregarded, *I'm* the one responsible for any
possible transgressions he may have committed.
This is revolutionary-- the idea that the assailant isn't to blame, that it's
the victim's fault. No, wait, it's not-- it's been the standard idea about rape
for thousands of years. That she must have been dressed sexy, that she was a
(ahem)-teaser. Only this time, it has a twist. It's still her fault, but not
it's her fault if another woman is raped by him later on.
My lord, until you have another person force part of his body into you, causing
great pain, rupturing your trust in him as well as 50% of the population, and
destroying your faith in the innate goodness of humanity, I suggest you simply
close those flapping lips of yours, because you have no idea whatsoever what
it's like while it's happening, and immediately afterwards. One's primary
thoughts are to self-preservation, not towards protecting potential victims.
I apologize for the somewhat graphic nature of this response, but I felt it was
important to explain to Peter O'Briaroak, who obviously is a crusader but never
a victim, what it's like to be a victim of rape.
Marguerite de Bordeaux
Cumhail
>
> Snappers, not just turtles? In my experience with snapping
> turtles, they're *much* faster than others -- over short
> distances, capable of actual running -- and they bite hard
> and often.
>
Granted Lady, certainly not _snappers_. Also granted, they can be
very hurtfull, especially to small children. I still don't agree that
they are so dangerous as to demand extirpation.
We would hope to keep our small children under a watchfull eye so they
are not so endangered. A thing certainly easier to say than to do. As
a personal favor, if I might be so bold, I would ask you all to axhaust
more humane measures before slaying any marauding turtles.
Kyle was right tho....one of those shells would make a groovy
codpiece.
Cumhail
Cumhail
> How interesting...
> So what happens when this man rapes another person? After you? You had a
> chance to stop a rapist and you failed. this makes you just as much a rapist
> and sadist as the man who tried to rape you. you are forcing another woman
> to become a victim. you are sick.
You brand someone a sadistic, sick, rapist for making a bad,
seat-of-the-pants decision? You're a doody-head.
Cumhail
Bill Herron
> chance to stop a rapist and you failed. this makes you just as much a
rapist
> and sadist as the man who tried to rape you. you are forcing another
woman
> to become a victim. you are sick.
Yeah, I think you're over the line here.
How a person decided to deal with their personal life is their own
business. If she chose not to follow up with legal action, 'twas her
perogative.
You're also making an assumption that the gentleman who raped her hasn't
done it again. She might have made an impression on him that lasts to this
day.
Be all that as it may, your comments are at best inappropriate, and at
worst an attack on the woman. I find your commentary rude, and I hope you
were trying to make a point by being overly cruel instead of seriously
attacking the woman.
I invite you to apologize for your remarks, as little as that will help. I
appreciate the fact that you disagree with her, but I dislike the way that
you reacted.
HL William FitzBubba
Carolingia, East
WeekleyB2
>Of course it could have been a rock that while drunk and stumbling in the
>dark
>could have been mistaken for a turtle.
>
>All hail pseudo turtle rock bane.... Slayer of foul stones and pebbles that
>trip drunken reveling sots...
>
>I can see the super hero now, in tights & late Italian Ren garb, a codpeace
>hammered to replicate the shell of the foul rocks that poae as turtles on the
>evening trails.
>
and then Richard L Thomas <rth...@tiger4.ocs.lsu.edu> wrote:
>As long as they took it home and ate it, who cares?
Now I ask you....anybody want some Mock Turtle soup?
Fulk of Shrewsbury
Veni, Vedi, Velcro
I came, I saw, I stuck with it
Andrea Gideon
>I apologize for the somewhat graphic nature of this response, but I felt it
was
>important to explain to Peter O'Briaroak, who obviously is a crusader but
never
>a victim, what it's like to be a victim of rape.
>
>Marguerite de Bordeaux
It almost happened to me at a smaller camping event. I was being walked
back to my tent by someone a lot more sober than I was and he presumed that
by walking me home that meant he was invited in the tent. When I unzipped
the tent he pushed me in and followed me in. He then tried to force himself
on me. I was lucky in that I managed to get out a good scream before a hand
came down on my mouth. As it was well after midnight only one person came
to help, but that was enough. And no, I never pressed any charges. Most
victims of "date-rape" or "friend-rape" do. What did happen was I stopped
going to events for nearly five years.
Andrea
Andrea Hicks
Well said. I wasn't raped, but molested as a child. No one knew that it
was my father's uncle who, as it turned out had other reports of child
molesting.
I don't begin think I know what you went through, but I empathize with
you. It seems the woman is always at fault and led the man on.
Michelle Roberts wrote:
>
> Peter O'Briaroak wrote:
>
> > How interesting...
> > So what happens when this man rapes another person? After you? You had a
> > chance to stop a rapist and you failed. this makes you just as much a rapist
> > and sadist as the man who tried to rape you. you are forcing another woman
> > to become a victim. you are sick.
>
> Thank you, I do try my best. Your comforting words are truly a balm to the abuse
> I suffered that evening. Wow, I never knew I was such a terrible person-- here I
> thought I was just trying to survive what happened. It turns out that, in
> addition to being dragged to the ground, having my pants ripped off, my body
> violated in one way and nearly violated in another, my basic rights to freedom
> and choice completely and totally disregarded, *I'm* the one responsible for any
> possible transgressions he may have committed.
>
> This is revolutionary-- the idea that the assailant isn't to blame, that it's
> the victim's fault. No, wait, it's not-- it's been the standard idea about rape
> for thousands of years. That she must have been dressed sexy, that she was a
> (ahem)-teaser. Only this time, it has a twist. It's still her fault, but not
> it's her fault if another woman is raped by him later on.
>
> My lord, until you have another person force part of his body into you, causing
> great pain, rupturing your trust in him as well as 50% of the population, and
> destroying your faith in the innate goodness of humanity, I suggest you simply
> close those flapping lips of yours, because you have no idea whatsoever what
> it's like while it's happening, and immediately afterwards. One's primary
> thoughts are to self-preservation, not towards protecting potential victims.
>
> I apologize for the somewhat graphic nature of this response, but I felt it was
> important to explain to Peter O'Briaroak, who obviously is a crusader but never
> a victim, what it's like to be a victim of rape.
>
> Marguerite de Bordeaux
--
Lady Maridonna Benvenuti
SCA Arms: 'Per pale sable and Or ten crosses botonny counterchanged.'
Nos indicum decerno nos vita
Naomi Gayle Rivkis
Peter O'Briaroak <harl...@spnt.com> wrote:
>>> Did you press charges?
>>
>>No, I beat the crap out of him. I felt much better after that, and didn't
>want
>>to deal with the hassle of Security, the Coopers, the police, inquisition--
>I
>>mean, indictment, trial, etc. He wasn't worth the hassle. Still isn't.
>
>How interesting...
>So what happens when this man rapes another person? After you? You had a
>chance to stop a rapist and you failed. this makes you just as much a rapist
>and sadist as the man who tried to rape you. you are forcing another woman
>to become a victim. you are sick.
Blaming a victim for not having the strength to cope with the
way the legal process handles rape claims is sick. You are not
the arbiter of how much the victim should have to go through
in ADDITION to an attempted rape. And to say that such a choice
makes *her* "as much a rapist and sadist" as *he* was is worse
than sick; it's a sick lie intended for no purpose than to hurt
the innocent party. A lie, not only for being untrue, but because
you knew it was untrue when you said it -- if you're sane.
Francis A. Ney, Jr
> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 15:28:01 GMT
>
> I thought we were talking about a fifty-pound snapping turtle
> here? If I came face to face in the dark with a wild animal
> half my size and behaving aggressively, damn right I would kill
> it if I thought I could. The next thing it met might've been a
> small child, who could take serious damage. Nobody I've ever
> heard of has prosecuted even an endangered species case when
> there was a clear self-defense need involved.
You haven't looked. People are being prosecuted for killing grizzly bears
who have ripped down front doors and entered the home.
Fortunately, snapping turtles aren't on the endangered species list.
Frank Ney N4ZHG WV/EMT-B VA/EMT-A LPWV NRA(L) GOA CCRKBA JPFO
Francis du Chalfont, Journeyman Chirurgeon
Are you ready for the BIG GLITCH? http://millenia-bcs.com/cassief.htm#TOP
Abuses by the BATF http://www.access.digex.net/~croaker/batfabus.html
Francis A. Ney, Jr
> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:44:14 GMT
>
> Yes, self defense is a very strong and realistic reason to kill. I just
> have to wonder how slow those two drunks were that they couldn't get out
> of the range of a turle's mouth. Fast They Ain't. :)
Box turtles are slow. Snappers are damn quick when they want to be.
Strong, too. I still have the 2x4 the one around my farm took a chunk out of (nearly
severing it in two) when I was using it to encourage him to sun himself somewhere other
than the road.
Francis A. Ney, Jr
> Date: 20 Aug 1998 17:07:08 GMT
>
> Did anyone actually witness the purported encounter? My family lives
> a few minutes down the road from Portersville, and I am rather surprised
> to learn of a species of turtle native to the area that can grow large
> enough to be tripped over, let alone to 50+ pounds....
Snappers can get down right huge if they live to any respectable age, and eat
enough. The critter at Pennsic was probably older than Dave Cooper.
Yes, I believe the story, because I have one running around my farm (pretty much the
same environment as Cooper's Lake) that's even bigger. Ever see a tire on a full size
Dodge van? He's that big. Now I know why half the fish DNR stocks the creek with are
never seen again. Burp.
I wouldn't worry about it in Portersville. Snappers generally don't share living
accommodations with humans, and there probably isn't another one of comparable size
within about fifty miles.
snowlion
Peter O'Briaroak wrote in message <6rhpql$pe8$1...@news.chatlink.com>...
>How interesting...
>So what happens when this man rapes another person? After you? You
had a
>chance to stop a rapist and you failed. this makes you just as much a
rapist
>and sadist as the man who tried to rape you. you are forcing another
woman
>to become a victim. you are sick.
Hmmm...
Considering the low conviction / high recidivism rate for a rapist
going through the justice system, perhaps beating the bastard to a
bloody pulp will make more of an impression upon him than the
wrist-slapping he'll get in court. The only way to deal with a brutal
attack is to be brutal.
Murasaki
(if this is the second appearance of this post, my apologies. My news
reader is being flaky today.)
ErichAwful
>>As long as they took it home and ate it, who cares?
>
>
>Now I ask you....anybody want some Mock Turtle soup?
>
>
> Fulk of Shrewsbury
> Veni, Vedi, Velcro
> I came, I saw, I stuck with it
>
>
wouldn't that be ROCK turtle soup?
Naomi Gayle Rivkis
>are not so endangered. A thing certainly easier to say than to do. As
>a personal favor, if I might be so bold, I would ask you all to axhaust
>more humane measures before slaying any marauding turtles.
Um... if I should ever happen to run unexpectedly into the
vicinity of a large snapping turtle, I'll certainly do my
best to do as you ask. Since I live in New York City, though,
at least for the moment, I may not have much opportunity to
live out said promise anytime soon...
>Cumhail
VLR
>
> >> > addition, I have somewhat a more personal stake in it, because during
> my
> >> first Pennsic, some "fine gentle" tried to rape me one evening after a
> >> party during which he drank enough booze to souse the entire country of
> >> Bolivia.
> >>
> >> Did you press charges?
> >
> >No, I beat the crap out of him. I felt much better after that, and didn't
> want
> >to deal with the hassle of Security, the Coopers, the police, inquisition--
> I
> >mean, indictment, trial, etc. He wasn't worth the hassle. Still isn't.
>
> So what happens when this man rapes another person? After you? You had a
> chance to stop a rapist and you failed. this makes you just as much a rapist
> and sadist as the man who tried to rape you. you are forcing another woman
> to become a victim. you are sick.
Good God! Where the hell do you get off branding a victim of assault as
a rapist and sick? You, my friend need to seek counseling. Your view of
reality is seriously impaired.....
Marsaili
--
Remove spamwich to reply.
=================================================
http://www.bigfoot.com/~marsaili
=================================================
I am Lancelot of Borg. Resistance is feudal.
Cumhail Ironsteed
>
> Um... if I should ever happen to run unexpectedly into the
> vicinity of a large snapping turtle, I'll certainly do my
> best to do as you ask. Since I live in New York City, though,
> at least for the moment, I may not have much opportunity to
> live out said promise anytime soon...
Then please look out for sewer-gators, ninja turtles, and C.H.U.D.S
Cumhail
Naomi Gayle Rivkis
Yessir... what's a C.H.U.D.S?
>Cumhail
-Naomi, who has enough trouble with her own somewhat
overexuberant puppy
Todd Rich
: In article <35E1CF...@pompano.net>,
(snip)
: > Then please look out for sewer-gators, ninja turtles, and C.H.U.D.S
: Yessir... what's a C.H.U.D.S?
: >Cumhail
: -Naomi, who has enough trouble with her own somewhat
: overexuberant puppy
: Kateline Grayveson
: Sahara Jibra'il
While I have never actually seen the movie, I do have a triva trap for a
brain.
Cannibalistic Humanoid Underground Dwellers (or a phrase roughly
simmilar).
Torin
: --
: The only way to become entirely impersonal is to be dead, and one
: then makes a poor observer.
: Anonymous
--
Due to spamage I have been getting my e-mail address is now anti-spam
encoded. Remove the capital letter to e-mail.
Snowlion
<tgup...@teleport.com> wrote:
>M'lady,
>
>Yes, self defense is a very strong and realistic reason to kill. I just
>have to wonder how slow those two drunks were that they couldn't get out
>of the range of a turle's mouth. Fast They Ain't. :)
>
If their mouths aren't fast then how do these powerful carnivores
catch fish? If you see it you have time to react. If not, some
valued bit of anatomy becomes lunchmeat. (no, I don't skinny dip
in wild water, I grew up fishing in snapping turtle country!)
Remember, it was said to be dark. They were lucky to see it.
Snowlion
Cumhail Ironsteed
> >
> > Then please look out for sewer-gators, ninja turtles, and C.H.U.D.S
>
> Yessir... what's a C.H.U.D.S?
>
Cannibalistic Humanoid Underground Dwellers. I understand that they
live in the seweres up there. Some genetic experiment gone awry, or
some junk. :)
Cumhail
Naomi Gayle Rivkis
I see. Thank you, my lord. But I believe you are mistaken. Any
New Yorker could testify that *NOTHING* can live in our sewers. ;)
>Cumhail
Kateline Grayveson
Silence
and not loose flesh???!!!
I once tried to remove one from the road to savve the poor fellow
he proceeded to removed 2 inches from the 4 inch diameter limb
I was using... and he snapped FAST...as in I barely caught the movement...
I have since been told the proper method is to pick them up by the
tail...
Would it not be simpler just to post:
Those killing wildlife without express permission of the owners
will be fined $200. that stops most...
Susan Rankin (sra...@op.net) wrote:
: In article <35DB20DD...@his.com>, whi...@his.com says...
: >
: >I speak only for myself as a single male who occasionally likes to drink
: >and court ladies but also contributes what he can to the Society on the
: >battlefield.
: >
: >Dustin - Brewer, Archer, Marshal-wannabe
: >Clan McGroyne
: This statement is all well and good, but we were talking about a couple of silly
: drunks slaying a turtle because -they- tripped over it due to their meade goggles. We're
: talking about stupid behaviour, not general partying. Suppose the beastie had been of an
: endangered species? Could have been trouble. Unfortunately, there is no knowne cure for
: stupidity. *sigh* I think the message here is, "drink responsibly, think wisely."
: Luta
:
--
----
Russell D. Steen
May your destiny in life, and your goal
follow the same path...
mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu
>My one question is how do you trip over a 50 pound snapping turtle
>and not loose flesh???!!!
>I once tried to remove one from the road to savve the poor fellow
>he proceeded to removed 2 inches from the 4 inch diameter limb
>I was using... and he snapped FAST...as in I barely caught the movement...
>
>I have since been told the proper method is to pick them up by the
>tail...
ARRRRGH!!!!!!
For a very small one, /maybe/ (I, personally, wouldn't want to chance it
being an exceptionally longnecked variety).
If you had tried that with the one alleged to have been at Pensic you would
likely have found a substantial amount of your leg missing ...
Silence
: ARRRRGH!!!!!!
I ran around behind the one on the road and grabbed his sides...
bad idea.. he snapped the air in front of him and the force
plus the mud on his sides freed him from my grasp...
Scared the crap outa me too.
Grizzly
Silence wrote:
I worked at the Philadelphia Zoo for 4 1/2 years, lots of animal handling
experience, and I am a certified animal handler. There is no way I would try to
move a turtle of that size with out some long poles with hard rubber bite guards
(very very hard rubber) and a wooden crate big enough to put the animal in. Best
thing to do in the situation these two found themselves in would have been to
have one run off to get someone while the other watched the turtle and warned
others coming to stay away. Then again with people being how they are, a crowd
would have soon built and made the situation more dangerous. *shrug* Easy to
say what could have been done but when in the situation....
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Grizzly bears are omnivorous. 80% of their diet is roots, bugs and
plants. The other 20% is meat. So when you see a Grizzly looking
at you he is not seeing a person. He sees his 20%.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Diana Parker
>Snapper soup, yum.
My parents learned the dangers of ill-thought out joking promises because
of that phrase :)
My sibs & I (9, 8, & 6 yrs) spent three days stalking the 1 foot diameter
snapper that we'd realized was blind in one eye. Our parents chagrin was
well memorable when we came home with it.
Somehow, it managed to "escape" overnight from the tank in the yard where
we'd carefully placed it until Mom could cook it the next day. There was
much suspicion of parental involvement, since the plywood cover was still
in place, but we dined on turtle soup from a can instead.
Cheers
Tabitha (alas, ole one-eye had learned his lesson from being trapped once &
we didn't get that close to him again for the rest of the summer.)
--
Diana Parker par...@mcmaster.ca (905) 525-9140 (x24282)
CUC - 201 Security Services McMaster University
Non curo --- Si metrum non habet, non est poema.
Calliach
not be unreasonable to expect a certain standard of behavior. Over the past
few years there has been a general decline in SCA .
For example, it used to be a point of pride that SCA'ers left a site
cleaner than when they arrived- not anymore. Cars used to be scrupulously
parked out of sight to preserve the feeling of the middle ages-not anymore.
People used to change into garb almost as soon as they arrived on site-not
anymore. These are the things I have noticed and I know from talking to others
that I am not the only one to notice...sigh.
I don't know what the solution is. Maybe an SCA 101 for newbies at
collegiums would help.
Cumhail Ironsteed
Over the past
> few years there has been a general decline in SCA .
> For example, it used to be a point of pride that SCA'ers left a site
> cleaner than when they arrived- not anymore. Cars used to be scrupulously
> parked out of sight to preserve the feeling of the middle ages-not anymore.
> People used to change into garb almost as soon as they arrived on site-not
> I don't know what the solution is. Maybe an SCA 101 for newbies at
> collegiums would help.
These things you've noticed seem to be prevailant throughout the SCA.
I don't know if classes for newbies would help, however. I've seen as
many greybeards committing these fox paws (that's faux pas for the humor
impaired) as often as the newbies. The newbies see this behavior, and
adopt it for their own. I've found the at first, newbies are most
anxious to please (many of them, anyway) and will happily comply, until
they notice that no one else does.
Just my observation.
Cumhail
ShySillyS
>> my
>> >> first Pennsic, some "fine gentle" tried to rape me one evening after a
>> >> party during which he drank enough booze to souse the entire country of
>> >> Bolivia.
>> >>
>> >> Did you press charges?
>> >
>> >No, I beat the crap out of him. I felt much better after that, and didn't
>> want
>> >to deal with the hassle of Security, the Coopers, the police,
>inquisition--
>> I
>> >mean, indictment, trial, etc. He wasn't worth the hassle. Still isn't.
>>
>> How interesting...
>> So what happens when this man rapes another person? After you? You had a
>> chance to stop a rapist and you failed. this makes you just as much a
>rapist
>> and sadist as the man who tried to rape you. you are forcing another woman
>> to become a victim. you are sick.
>
I haven't been here to see the whole of this story, and how it started.
Unfortunately, there are two stories in this thred. One about a snapping
turtle, and the other about this.
To the "gentle" (for want of a better word) who thinks it's the lady's fault
for being raped, or allowing others to (maybe) be raped in the future:
Have you ever been raped? Or been the victem of an attempted rape? Do you
know what it's like to be violated in the most personal and vile way possible?
Do you know what it's like to hear people telling you that it's all your fault
for the assult on your body? Hearing people call you a "tease" and saying you
asked for it. Hearing people say you must have wanted it because you said
nothing about what happened to you to the authorities? Hearing people tell you
that you have no right to complain because you chose to go the route of least
resistance after the fact (especially if the rape never included exchange of
bodily fluids for a positive fluid ID of the rapist)?
If you have not, then you definately need to apologize to the Lady for your
words of greif and further abuse to her.
I have been on the recieving end of such a rape. For me, the incident was not
at a SCA event, but involved a "gentle" (again for want of a better word) who
was and is a member of the SCA. He was a guest in my house (had been here a
month). I room with some friends, and it was a night when I was alone wioth
the person. The ONLY night we were alone. After the incident, I was told and
"overheard" all of the above.
It must have been my fault. I must not have said no. And if I did say no, I
must not have said it in a way that made it seem like I meant it.
After he ran away (so he wouldn't be here when my room-mates returned) he got
on the computer in IM's to my roomate, and said that I wanted it. I never said
no. I didn't stop him when he was rudely waking me up inside me. Of course,
it's my fault, right?
WRONG. As any woman who's been a victem of personal assult like this will tell
you... It's not the victems fault. I was asleep when it started, and to wake
me up is a hard process at best. To top it all off, I was molested when I was
a child, and woke up, not knowing if I was just in a nightmare again, or what
was going on. But it was my fault, according to him and others.
And the main reason I was blamed by others? Because I never went to the police
and pressed charges. I chose not to, for my sanity, and to this day, wish I
would have chosen the Lady's solution to the problem. If I'd have been more
awake, I would have beat him senseless, and then kicked him out of the house.
But I still wouldn't have put myself through the inquisition of a police
inquiry over the subject.
And, btw, in case you want to tell me how I've set other women up to be raped
like I was... whenever anybody asks me of this person, I tell them the truth.
And have told many people where he lives now of his actions and his lack of the
ability to hear no, no matter how loud it's spoken.
Branwyn ni Druighd
BerkleyGal
before there was wide knowledge (and legal precedent) on how to deal with it, I
must express my gratitude that someone spoke up so eloquently.
The person who implied any fault of the victim for not going to the police has
clearly never been in the situation. I was afraid to press charges because I
could just hear the "well, she agreed to go out with me" from him and the "we
saw them together at the club" from others. The doctor at the hospital was
thoroughly ticked that I was not going to press charges and it showed in his
treatment of me.
Rape is not about sex, it is about power. It is about making the other person
feel powerless -- like a thing, a vessel, and not a person.
End of rant,
Fiona de Bousis
Kingdom of the West (Mists)
-----
How many cares one loses when one decides not to be something, but to be
someone. -- Coco Chanel
Michael Z. Williamson
>
> >The person who implied any fault of the victim for not going to the police
> has
> >clearly never been in the situation. I was afraid to press charges because
> I
> >could just hear the "well, she agreed to go out with me" from him and the
> "we
> >saw them together at the club" from others. The doctor at the hospital was
> >thoroughly ticked that I was not going to press charges and it showed in
> his
> >treatment of me.
> >
> >Rape is not about sex, it is about power. It is about making the other
> person
> >feel powerless -- like a thing, a vessel, and not a person.
>
> forcing the women behind you into being victimized. Do you like doing that
> to other people?
> Did you like it when you were raped? Do you want someone else to experience
> that too? Go to the police and press charges.
My lord, your attack on the lady is WAYYYY out of line. I believe
everyone is morally bound to do as much as possible to prevent this type
of thing, but there are circumstances under which, and people in those
circumstances, that make such difficult, if not impossible.
A rape trial is degrading and scary to the victim. I certainly would
not want to be in such a situation.
I have heard it advised to press charges for simple assault or indecent
exposure instead. It is far more embarassing for the defendant, and he
may get more jail time out of it.
But I would ask you to retract your statement to the lady. It is not
appropriate, and cannot improve the situation.
--
mike
Costumes, weapons and armor. From the stone age to the space age.
http://www.cloak-dagger.com
"It is good to know that with the creation of Ritalin, the world will
never again be troubled by the likes of another Mozart." Charles
Budreau
Peter O'Briaroak
Linda
>
> You are sick. You are creating a victim within your self and are willingly
> forcing the women behind you into being victimized. Do you like doing that
> to other people?
> Did you like it when you were raped? Do you want someone else to experience
> that too? Go to the police and press charges.
my lord Peter,
i hope one day, you come to an understanding of exactly how wrong and
ill-informed your words are in this situation. for you to imply on
ANY level that a survivor of sexual assault LIKED it or wanted it is
truly the product of a neanderthal way of thinking. i hope you never
have to hold a friend while they cry as if their soul had been torn
out because someone they trusted (a roomate, a friend, the boyfriend
of a roomate) forced them into a sexual act they neither wanted nor
invited. i hope that pain never comes into your life, even though i
think that experience would make you a much kinder and understanding
person in this area.
have you ever been present during the questioning of a rape victim?
no? then hold your tongue when you say "go press charges". i HAVE
been, i volunteered at the rape crisis center when i had the time last
year. one of the things we did was take shifts at the hospital just
in case a victim DID come in. invariably, the exam after the rape was
nearly as traumatic to the victim as the experience was. it's much
like a regular gynecological exam, with a few differences.. for
example, they comb your pubic hair, just in case the attacker shed any
in the event of the attack. if there was forced oral sex (and dont
say it cant be forced, that's bullshit.), they take throat swabbings
and cheek scrapings. every mark on your body is photographed, with a
handy little polaroid camera. iuf you're lucky, this takes only an
hour, maybe two. i've seen it take up to three and four hours. then
and ONLY then are you allowed to take a shower. after that, all your
clothes are put in baggies as evidence.
THEN, you get to sit and talk to a law enforcement officer, and tell
him exactly what happened, and god forbid you should know the person
who did it to you, because most LEO's will get that knowing look in
their eye, implying the exact same thing you did ..."oh, she knows the
guy, she must have been teasing him and it got out of hand". doesnt
matter if she said no or not, she knew him, it must be her fault.
going to trial is a whole seperate animal. about a year or so later,
if the scumdog's lawyer doesnt cop a plea on something like assault 2
with intent, every detail of the victim's sex life is questioned under
a microscope, whether she ever had more than one boyfriend, if she
ever dated anyoen the attacker knew, if she ever dated the attacker,
if she lived with the attacker even in teh same apartment building,
who she dated, for how long, whether she was "promiscuous" with her
attentions, anything and everything that can be dragged out to try to
get the bastard who did it free. and you wonder why more women don't
press charges?
do us all a favor, LEARN about the process you're trying to tell other
people to get into.
oh and one more teensy favor? be man (or woman) enough to sign your
name.
Linda Singer
Lady Eridania di Venizia
Canton of Kapellenberg
Barony of Windmaster's Hill
Glorious Kingdom of Atlantia
Aleq
>
> You are sick. You are creating a victim within your self and are willingly
> forcing the women behind you into being victimized. Do you like doing that
> to other people?
> Did you like it when you were raped? Do you want someone else to experience
> that too? Go to the police and press charges.
Excuse me, but are you of the opinion that simply pressing charges is
somehow going to magically stop a rapist from harming another? Get
real. Even if, after long and arduous and horrifyingly intrusive legal
processes wend their exhausting way, a conviction is obtained, the
average rapist gets a teeny little slap on the wrist and gets to go to
jail to learn even more about intimidation and hatred of women. For
many women, it is even more terrifying and dehumanizing to go through
the legal process than the original rape was. Any person has the right
to decide whether or not she wants to go through with pressing charges,
and should NOT be criticized for her choice. If a woman can't face the
legal process, it is just another rape to make her do it...
So instead of beating up on the victim here, why not spend some time
lobbying for groups who are trying to make it less stressful to be a
rape victim, or at least spend some time volunteering to work with rape
victims and get a little bit of perspective on the problem that you are
so blithely prescribing advice for. Your current position rings way too
facile to be based on any sort of empirical evidence.
And please do get in the habit of signing your posts, unless you are
just too afraid of having people know who it is who is spouting off so
ignorantly...
Adellind le Quintain
DeSevyngy
<harl...@spnt.com> writes:
>
>You are sick. You are creating a victim within your self and are willingly
>forcing the women behind you into being victimized. Do you like doing that
>to other people?
>Did you like it when you were raped? Do you want someone else to experience
>that too? Go to the police and press charges.
>
I really tried to stay out of this one, but this just tears it. My response is
not nice, those of you with a weak stomach, do not read the following.....
Peter O'Briaroak, you're behavior on this thread is abbhorent. This is the
second time you have labled a rape survivor sick. This is the second time that
you have placed all the future rapes in this world on the head of a rape
survivor. Get a clue.
Your behavior here demonstrates you to be the worst kind of man. Your forceful
questioning of the survivors- "did you like it?" is entirely to close to the
comments made by rapist while they are forcing themselves on their victims.
How much of a stretch would it be for _you_ to find yourself in the role of a
rapist? Really? What lengths would you go to, to press your point of the
victim being to blame? Would you corner her? Would you say she liked it?
Would you grab her arms to make her listen to you? Would you hold her down
until she admitted it was all her fault? When she resisted, would you ignore
her struggles and pleading for you to stop? Would you tell her what you were
doing was all her fault. Would you tell her that if she _didn't_ go to the
police and report what had been done to her "for the protection of future
victims" that you would come back and kill her?
These are the signatures of rapists. Asking a survivor if "she liked it?" is
awfully close to telling a woman that she likes it, just because _you_ do. You
seem to be unaware of how violent rape is, how long it takes a woman to get
even the smallest amount of confidence back, and how fine a line you walk when
asking a woman if she liked it.
Please refrain from telling any more women that rape is their fault, wether
theirs _or_ those of women after them. Doing so helps no one, makes no
difference to you, and hurts those hurt enough already.
Lady Isabeau de Sevyngy
Squired to Sir Sakura kita no Maikeru
Barony of Loch Salann
Artemisia
wyv...@megahits.com
>
> > You are sick. You are creating a victim within your self and are willingly
> > forcing the women behind you into being victimized. Do you like doing that
> > to other people?
> > Did you like it when you were raped? Do you want someone else to experience
> > that too? Go to the police and press charges.
>
> i hope one day, you come to an understanding of exactly how wrong and
> ill-informed your words are in this situation. for you to imply on
> ANY level that a survivor of sexual assault LIKED it or wanted it is
> truly the product of a neanderthal way of thinking.
FWIW, if you reread them you'll see that Peter's words are a bit stark,
but they imply no such thing.
i hope you never
> have to hold a friend while they cry as if their soul had been torn
> out because someone they trusted (a roomate, a friend, the boyfriend
> of a roomate) forced them into a sexual act they neither wanted nor
> invited. i hope that pain never comes into your life, even though i
> think that experience would make you a much kinder and understanding
> person in this area.
I beleive that Peter's point is that, by failing to do everything in her
power to bring the offender to justice, they are passively abetting
repeated attacks. It's an arguably valid argument, no matter how
painful it might be to hear.
> have you ever been present during the questioning of a rape victim?
It's a horribly traumatic process. That's why it's understandable that
so many rape victims never report the crime. Peter's point, however,
remains valid. In the end it's a matter of weighing the victim's
further trauma against the potential for trauma to the rapist's future
victims. Deciding between the two is a totally subjective judgement.
(FWIW, there *is* some support for the idea that 'fighting back' by
filing charges *can* help rebuild the victim's sense of power. Rape is
about power and control, filing charges *can* be a way to reassert
control. The best route to recovery will vary from individual to
individual.)
> do us all a favor, LEARN about the process you're trying to tell other
> people to get into.
I don't necessarily agree with Peter's postion entirely in every case,
but he has a point that should be respected in a civil discourse. The
failings of the investigative process are no really the same as the
issue on point.
> oh and one more teensy favor? be man (or woman) enough to sign your
> name.
With all due respect, it appeared in the header of his message when I
read it, if it's not in yours, that's a failure of your newsreader --
not Peter's.
Macsen