Elves in the SCA
Michael S. McCollum
Beth + Dallas Bardot wrote:
>
> We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New
> Worlders.
Ah, I see. We must accept Elves because they're not European nor common
to the European Middle Ages, but rather we treat them as guests of the
court? I don't think so. I can project circumstances under which
Japanese or folk from the New World might have come in contact with my
persona. I can only surmise that I'd see elves after eating moldy rye
bread.
Eadric
JkrissW
In article <1996092116...@cliff.cris.com>, bar...@cris.COM (Beth +
Dallas Bardot) writes:
>We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New
>Worlders.
>
>Lord Aethelwyn Aethelredson, CTC
Oh? Why must fantasy creatures be accepted - as opposed to your two
examples of authentic period cultures?
Daveed of Granada, AoA, CHA
From the Barony of Lyondemere in fair Caid
mka J. Kriss White in smoggy L.A.
jkr...@aol.com
Arval d'Espas Nord
Aethelwyn Aethelredson pronounced:
> We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New
> Worlders.
We "must" accept nothing at all. We _could_ restrict the game to London in
1345 and exclude anyone who didn't fit that setting.
Even with our vaguely-statement historical period, we _could_ be as
arbitrary as we want.
Perhaps you actually intended to discuss what you think we _ought_ to do?
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mit...@panix.com
TRISTAN CLAIR DE LUNE/KEN MONDSCHEIN
>Worlders.
>
What? Multiculturalism?
--Tristan
TRISTAN CLAIR DE LUNE/KEN MONDSCHEIN
>We "must" accept nothing at all. We _could_ restrict the game to London in
>1345 and exclude anyone who didn't fit that setting.
I *like* that idea! I already know Middle English (i.e. can read
and pronounce it, and even "speak" it after reading Chaucer for a bit)
and Latin...
--Tristan
Beth + Dallas Bardot
Michael J. Watson
jkr...@aol.com (JkrissW) wrote:
>In article <1996092116...@cliff.cris.com>, bar...@cris.COM (Beth +
>Dallas Bardot) writes:
The only reason I can see, in period ,for excepting Elvish personas is
if the person is recreating a jester or a lunatic. In the first case
they would be seen as an object of mokery and in the second case an
object of pity. Let's keep our worlds from coliding with people from
deeper in the fringe than we ourselves already are.
Gulliver Blackrune
Eric A. Rhude
In <1996092116...@cliff.cris.com> bar...@cris.COM (Beth + Dallas Bardot) writes:
>We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New
>Worlders.
>Lord Aethelwyn Aethelredson, CTC
I feel that I must respond to this comment, I usually lurk on this
newsgroup.
If you can find a historical account of Elves in actual medieval court any
where in europe I will change my views.
In the mid 14th century there was a group of about 22 japanese warriors
that made it to a court in Italy, I do not have the documentation at hand
but if I pressured I can find it.
About new worlders, that is pushing it a bit, but how about the converted
indians that columbus brought back for a start?
We are a historical group not a live action role players or a fantasy
festival.
Eric Rhude
--
Eric Rhude - Handyman
Ld Ateno of Annun Ridge, OM, Seahorse
Michael J. Watson
>About new worlders, that is pushing it a bit, but how about the converted
>indians that columbus brought back for a start?
>Eric Rhude
>--
>Eric Rhude - Handyman
>Ld Ateno of Annun Ridge, OM, Seahorse
I ran into a guy at Estrella who claimed to be a full blooded indian.
His armor was a mixture of east coast indian garb and spanish armor.
His persona was one of the indians brought to spain in the early 1500s
who had converted to christianity. He had the details of his persona
and the period fairly well down pat. I was impressed. I got the
impression though that he was new to the SCA . His only regret was
that the east coast tribe he played was not his own Souix tribe. Nor
was his indian garb accurate for his persona tribe. This would have
been around 1989 or '90.
If anyone remembers this gentleman could you forward his name and
contact information. I have a friend of Native American extraction
who may want to do the same thing.
Hl Gulliver Blackrune
TRISTAN CLAIR DE LUNE/KEN MONDSCHEIN
>Hl Gulliver Blackrune
There's Sir Ix, from the Midrealm, who does an Aztec thing and
wears "Jaguar skin" armor (looks OK... I think it's fake fur tailored over
plastic and metal).
--Tristan
Matthew Saroff
bar...@cris.COM (Beth + Dallas Bardot) wrote:
>We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New
>Worlders.
Hi,
What's this about Elvis in the SCA? That explains why that old
fat duke looks and sounds so familiar.
--
--Sfi Mordehai ben Yosef Yitzhak, Aka Matthew G. Saroff
This is not the Dream. This is what I do on weekends to have
some fun.
The Dream involves 4 sets of identical twins, 2 gallons of Cool
Whip, 5 quarts of chocolate syrup, 2-1/4 pounds of strawberries,
satin sheets, a magnum of champagne, a trapeze, and a python.
Check http://www.pobox.com/~msaroff, including The Bad Hair Web Page
Matthew Saroff
bar...@cris.COM (Beth + Dallas Bardot) wrote:
>We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New
>Worlders.
Hi,
I don't mean to burst your bubble, but Amerindians in native garb
were fairly common in courts after 1550. They were an "in thing"
for a while.
The only documented Japanese in Europe at that time were (I
think) 12 Benedictine Monks who had an audience with the Pope,
which means that a Euro-Japanese personae might justifiably be
limited to a monk.
Matthew Saroff
bar...@cris.COM (Beth + Dallas Bardot) wrote:
>We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New
>Worlders.
Hi,
What's this about Elvis in the SCA? That explains why that old
fat duke looks and sounds so familiar.
Dennis O'Connor
Beth + Dallas Bardot <bar...@cris.COM> wrote in article
<1996092116...@cliff.cris.com>...
> We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New
> Worlders.
Hmmm. Is this a sincerely held opinion, or just bait ?
The New World and Japan were places that were definately
known to and visited by Western Europeans: Fairyland was not.
Lisa Z. Morgan
> >>About new worlders, that is pushing it a bit, but how about the
converted
> >>indians that columbus brought back for a start?
>
>
> >>Eric Rhude
> >I ran into a guy at Estrella who claimed to be a full blooded indian.
> >His armor was a mixture of east coast indian garb and spanish armor.
> >His persona was one of the indians brought to spain in the early 1500s
> >who had converted to christianity. He had the details of his persona
>
>
>
> There's Sir Ix, from the Midrealm, who does an Aztec thing and
> wears "Jaguar skin" armor (looks OK... I think it's fake fur tailored
over
> plastic and metal).
>
These personae are all within the rule of "in or could have visited
medieval Europe" but...please be aware, especially new people in the SCA,
that choosing such a persona means that in order to play OUR personas, we
cannot treat them as if they fit in like a French Knight from 1350. If my
12th C Norman persona ever saw an American Indian, I'd think he was some
kind of Arab, maybe. I remember a Japanese fellow who came to an event in
full dress armour with a big old horned helm and tabi on his feet. What
was I suppose to do when I saw a strange fellow (big, too) with horns and
cloven feet??? I yelled for the Archbishop to cast out the Devil!
In short, if we are going to have "visitors" they have to be prepared to
fit into the role play of a medieval court--as curiosities and perhaps as
objects of superstitious fear.
Lyon
Kim Pollard
On Sat, 21 Sep 1996, Michael S. McCollum wrote:
> Beth + Dallas Bardot wrote:
> >
> > We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New
> > Worlders.
>
> Ah, I see. We must accept Elves because they're not European nor common
> to the European Middle Ages, but rather we treat them as guests of the
> court? I don't think so. I can project circumstances under which
> Japanese or folk from the New World might have come in contact with my
> persona. I can only surmise that I'd see elves after eating moldy rye
> bread.
>
> Eadric
_____
Now here's an interesting theory I overheard at Pennsic this year... The
Good Gentle stated Elves, Trolls, Woodsprites, etc, could be accepted
because there were people who would impersonate them during our time
period--probably for the same reason people do now.
Anyone out there have documentation of this? It really got my curiosity
up, but I can't find any reference to it outside of characters in a
Shakespear play (A Midsummer Night's Dream).
Kimberly
Ron Umpleby
>Beth + Dallas Bardot wrote:
>>
>> We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New
>> Worlders.
If you want to play fantasy, go join AmtGuard. In the meantime, until you can
show me documentation on a real live Elf ANYWHERE in history, get real
personae.
Elves indeed....
**********************************************************
*Life is like a sewer... *
*What you get out of it depends on what you put into it *
*Ron Umpleby *
*co...@rt66.com *
*http://www.rt66.com/~colin *
**********************************************************
Tireachan
Beth + Dallas Bardot wrote:
>
> We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New
> Worlders.
>
Whoa there! And where exactly do we draw the line? Vampires? Troll
personas? Japanese is not that much of a stretch as there was some
contact/trade, New World is pushing it, but elves? This is the SCA and
not a scifi/fantasy convention! As a historical recreation association,
we are under no obligation to accept anything that didn't exist in some
way, shape, or form as part of the real life (or related to the real
life) of medieval Europeans. That means we can TELL stories about
elves and other period mythological creatures, but I don't want to
see any Selkie or Sidhe personas. For gastric safety, I put up with ice
chests and modern medicines, but introducing D&D personas would destroy
what we are. Was this posting a joke to yank my chain and get me riled
or what?
Tireachan
NatalyaDeF
An interesting dilemma: If you have a strong, well-developed persona out
of which you never stray, how would you react to an encounter with someone
garbed in a non-Western, non-Medieval? You could, of course, gawk, point,
scream, call for the archers, or faint. Or you could opt for that old
stand-by of the "Current" Middle Ages which is to be courteous and ask
about this person's background. Or am I erring on the side of good
manners over authenticity? -- Natalya de Foix
Alex Clark
>We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New
>Worlders.
It seems to me that what you are really trying to get us to accept is a
troll. YOUR troll.
Henry of Maldon/Alex Clark
Alex Clark
In article <522hul$5...@what.why.net>, msa...@pobox.com says...
> What's this about Elvis in the SCA? That explains why that old
>fat duke looks and sounds so familiar.
Yup. Back when he was the King, he was famous for a fighting style that
involved moving his pelvis a lot. I think he must have been one of those
marital artists.
Alex Clark/Henry of Maldon
Edwin Hewitt
Eric A. Rhude wrote: (snip)
> In the mid 14th century there was a group of about 22 japanese
> warriors that made it to a court in Italy, I do not have the > documentation at hand but if I pressured I can find it.
>
>
> --
I would be interested in seeing the documentation. I have not heard of
contact between the Euro and Japanese cultures that early.
Edwin
JkrissW
In article <522hvb$5...@what.why.net>, msa...@pobox.com (Matthew Saroff)
writes:
> The only documented Japanese in Europe at that time were (I
>think) 12 Benedictine Monks who had an audience with the Pope,
>which means that a Euro-Japanese personae might justifiably be
>limited to a monk.
By what line of reasoning? It's not obvious to me.
Edwin Hewitt
Beth + Dallas Bardot wrote:
>
> Worlders.
>
Elves in Plastic Armor?
Actually, I have a friend, Elgil Mirdil of Dor Mallos, whose name is
registered with the SCA College of Heralds. It is Tolkien Elvish.
Roughtly translated it means, Elfstar, lover of gems, from the lands of
gold. We also translated it as Elf-elf, lover of sparkling yellow snow.
He didn't care for that translation. He also was one of the principle
Caidans involved in making the Great Desert wars happen.
Another friend of mine, Mistress Ataniel O' Imladris, is a "Tolkien
Scholar," and calls herself a Daughter of Men in Tolkien Elvish. Her
name passed Laurel, and is part Tolkien Elvish. She wrote a book,
published under the name Ruth S. Noel, called "The Languages of
Tolkien's
Middle-earth," published by Houghton-Mifflin Co., Boston, 1980.
I do not know if their names would still pass Laurel today, but at the
time Tolkien Elvish was the ONLY non-period language allowed by the SCA.
The early SCA seemed to use literary rather than a purely authentic
period examples to design its culture. Frankly, the SCA emphasis on
honor and chivalry comes from its literary and romantic foundations.
Even in "the Dream" authenticity has its limits.
Edwin.
Kevin Davis Connery
In a recent article (<5242sk$k...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>), natal...@aol.com (NatalyaDeF) wrote:
>An interesting dilemma: If you have a strong, well-developed persona out
>of which you never stray, how would you react to an encounter with someone
>garbed in a non-Western, non-Medieval?
Barring a very few highly xenophobic cultures, your best bet is to assume
they're "strangers to these parts", and deal with them as you would any
other foreigner, though perhaps with more precautions, given that you don't
know their provenance, and thus have little recourse should problems arise.
_Some_ inquisition-period Spaniards, of course, would react differently;
but they're one of the examples of highly xenophobic cultures, and
fortunately, cannot often create policy.
Keradwc
--
Keradwc an Cai A Caidan Mistie (or was that a Misty Caidan?)
Kevin Davis Connery kcon...@isi.com or ker...@rahul.net
kyl...@his.com
co...@rt66.com (Ron Umpleby) wrote:
>
>>Beth + Dallas Bardot wrote:
>>>
>>> We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New
>>> Worlders.
>If you want to play fantasy, go join AmtGuard. In the meantime, until you can
>show me documentation on a real live Elf ANYWHERE in history, get real
>personae.
>Elves indeed....
I hate to point this out but like it or not the SCA IS A FANTASTY!
One based somewhat on pre 1700 history but still a fantasty. As for
Elfs and such, I expect them to show up just as the storys about them
are. I.E. the only ones that normaly saw them were drunk at the time.
Kyle
Grizel (Jen Funk)
> > We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New...the wings get real crispy.... ALSO TRY Suckling Elf Fricassee, Brandied Elf over lamb and carrots... and the Seasonal Elf Thermadore with red wine sauce.
Lets' face it elves suck. They are wrong, evil the bane of all human
kind and well, they probably smell bad too. I don't know why anyone
would be an elf, I think being a tiny flying incestlike humanoid who
dances around mushrrom, oh... that's faeries... Tha't right...ELVES...
Well, they wear much too much red and green and back up that SAnta Claus
clown WAY too much when he slacks off, like he's some GOD or something.
They need to get a life and make some long pants.
SERIOUS STUFF: Let's clips the wings on this category shall we?
We should not stand idely by and let our society turn into a scifi con
(no that there is anything wrong with that... I mean Klingons, Elves...
what's the difference really besides a couple feet in the height
category? (the klingons wear lifts! SHHH!!) )
I am not saying we go out on elf hunts and start up big fires with
stakes and chains in them (but it does sound like a fun Pennsic
party...).
But we do NOThave to be tolerant. Nowhere are elves mentioned in the US
Constitution (ALL men, women, children, non-gendered humans, elves,
sprites, trekkers, truckers, are created equal...)
You can't be "politically correct" to something that sleeps under
flowers and drinks rain drops... oh, that's faeries agin... or do
WHATEVER elves do like spell casting or defeating a 12th level Palladin
with a Holy Sword named Thurgeis with a twinkle of it's nose or
something on that order) But you do not have to cater to people who
refuse to play by the rules. The SCA actually has rules, some smart
people have actually written them down... Maybe not in ELFEN tongue, but
maybe someone could translate for the poor sods. And, get this some even
smarter people have actually read them, and they knew NOT TO PLAY ELFS!
Wow, what a concept.
(Children, let's go to our group disscussion corners and have
meaningful conference on this. Come back in twenty minutes with a 20
paged thesis on how the theory of majority rules is degrading to
elves...)
If someone wore a elf costume to a blackpowder rendevous they would
probably be kicked off site, and told never to come back, maybe even
rubbed with raw honey and thrown into a bee hive... then laughed at (HEE
HEE). Granted they are more "authenticity minded" than we are sometimes,
but they also have guns.
If we are going to get rid of the plaugue of elves I say...
Brothers, sisters, (not elves) join me against this scourge and mount
huge flyswatters to your rattan swords and take back _OUR_ SCA... oh,
that's right flyswatters are for fearies again, what do you use for
elves? Salt?
/\ /\ /\ /\
| \ / \ / \ / |
| \/ \/ \/ |
| |
Lady Elspeth Grizel Of Dunfort, OW
Fall Crown Merchant overlord, er... I mean
crat..
| |
The Official FALL Crown Tourney website is:
http://www.dnaco.net/sca/fall_crown.html, bookmark it
and keep checking in for new info! All info is availbale at the
site.
| |
====================
Grizel (Jen Funk)
Reading it over I guess I went overboad. A bit.
But, let me just say to control this trend we must chain their little
elven butts into that tree house until they learn to bake their wieght
in buttery cookies!
Grizel
"I like those little graham ones with the chocolate stripes, Ernie! Get
back in the kitchen, don't make me get the whip!"
Edwin Hewitt
Peasants are easier to document than Elves as being in Period.
Still, we don't really use either persona. SCA persona are assumed to
be gentry. As a Peer friend of mine once said, "You can call yourself a
peasant, if you want to. Just don't get upset if I treat you as one."
If an elf or any other unworldly creature found itself at a major period
event, the event would probably then include a burning of said creature.
Edwin.
Susan Carroll-Clark
Greetings!
>We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New
>Worlders.
I don't follow your reasoning. Japanese and New World personae have ties
to actual history. Real people from our period encountered these
folks, and a few (New Worlders, at least) actually came to Europe.
Elves may be a part of historic literature, and there
may have been many in the Middle Ages who believed in such beings, but
the fact remains that *there were no elves in the Middle Ages*.
I also object to your use of the term "must". Why "must" I accept non-
historical fantasy in an organization obstensibly devoted to education
about the historical Middle Ages and Renaissance? Many of our deviations
from history have some logical base--we use rattan swords because real ones
are more dangerous; some folks use acetate satin because they cannot afford
silk, etc. But there is no reason why someone should "have" to adopt an
elvish persona.
Besides, elves are much more interesting when they appear in stories and
songs and retain their mysterious nature. I like to dream and enjoy fantasy
while I'm in persona, too. Please don't take that away from me.
Cheers--
Nicolaa de Bracton
scl...@chass.utoronto.ca
Kerry
->Beth + Dallas Bardot wrote:
->
-> We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and
New
-> Worlders.
->
I've been lurking here for quite a long time... but THIS I feel I
should say something about.
The SCA has been, to me, for the past 9 years or so, a way of
experiencing history. Elves are NOT a part of history. They have as
much of a part in society NOW in 1996, as they ever did in the period
between 600 and 1600ad... in that they are purely legendary.
On the other hand, many people put a great deal of emphasis on the
Creative part of SCA, and I don't think anyone should particularly
rain on their parade.
Personally, if I saw someone at an event with pointy ears, I'd
probably say "milord, what ails your ears?" or something. If he
replied "I'm an elf, milord, the wee folk all have pointy ears" I'd
probably laugh my head off.
To get to the point: If you want to have an elf persona, or a three
footed burmese handstanding mugwump persona, that's fine by me. Don't
expect anyone to take you seriously, or make special considerations
for you in court or anything. I know I wouldn't.
-Igar Bjarki
rosalyn rice
In article <5222dr$i...@panix2.panix.com>,
Eric A. Rhude <at...@panix.com> wrote:
>In the mid 14th century there was a group of about 22 japanese warriors
>that made it to a court in Italy, I do not have the documentation at hand
>but if I pressured I can find it.
Actually, my favorite "cross-cultural" story is an article that I
saw in National Geographic a few years back.
It seems that once upon a time in the 16th c. there was a
Portuguese (?) pirate/privateer which circumnavigated the globe just a few
years after Magellan's fleet. The privateers started out from Europe, went
around the Horn and up the Chile coast in search of the Spanish Peruvian
treasure fleet. They learned that the fleet had left, so they pushed on to
the Philippines where they managed to defeat a scratch fleet of Spanish
ships manned by Spaniards, Philippinos and Japanese mercenaries. (The
actual battle was a farce. The pirates were nearly dead with scurvy. The
Spaniards only lost because their leader was an inept poltroon who managed
to sink his own ship by overloading it and running out the leeward lower
deck guns in a wind.)
Though the NG article was about the salvaging of the Spanish
commander's ship from Manilla harbour, I was amused by the fact that in
the 16th you could have such a wildly diverse crew fighting a ship
engaged in a colonial dispute half the world away from Europe.
Based on that article alone, I could well imagine Japanese and
New World visitors to a 16th c. European court. It's the tail end of the
SCA's Period, but it's still Period.
Lothar
rosalyn rice
In article <5225nd$6...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
Michael J. Watson <seek...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>I ran into a guy at Estrella who claimed to be a full blooded indian.
>His armor was a mixture of east coast indian garb and spanish armor.
>His persona was one of the indians brought to spain in the early 1500s
>who had converted to christianity. He had the details of his persona
>and the period fairly well down pat. I was impressed. I got the
>impression though that he was new to the SCA . His only regret was
>that the east coast tribe he played was not his own Souix tribe. Nor
>was his indian garb accurate for his persona tribe. This would have
>been around 1989 or '90.
Then let us remember the slightly OOP example of Squanto. The
Pilgrims were on the verge of starvation when they happened to run into an
friendly Indian who spoke fluent English.
Squanto was raised in Virginia where he learned English from the
Jamestown settlers. He was kidnapped by Spaniards and sold into slavery in
Spain. He subsequently escaped to England and back to Virginia. He was
then kidnapped again by English and taken to England. There he lived and
worked for some years before he returned to the New World as a translator
and guide for another colony. He then deserted that colony (or else it
failed, I forget which) and since his original tribe was dead (wiped out
due to disease) he hooked up with another tribe who lived in the area
around Plymouth.
By the late 16th c. there was a fair bit of contact between the
Old World and the New World. An American Indian persona wouldn't be
utterly out of line as a 16th c. persona.
Lothar
rosalyn rice
>time Tolkien Elvish was the ONLY non-period language allowed by the SCA.
>The early SCA seemed to use literary rather than a purely authentic
>period examples to design its culture. Frankly, the SCA emphasis on
>honor and chivalry comes from its literary and romantic foundations.
Elvish names have been banned by the heralds for a *long* time. I
think that the ban came down in the early 80's, but I forget the exact
year. The ban was in place, and was considered old, from the time that I
first started with heraldry ca. 1987.
I think originally the idea was that the SCA was so heavily
influenced by Tolkien that the heralds *had* to register Elvish names in
order to cater to popular wishes. Eventually Tolkien's popularity in the
SCA diminished to the point where the ban was a non-issue.
Lothar
Victor W. Wong
(kyl...@his.com) writes:
> co...@rt66.com (Ron Umpleby) wrote:
>
>
>>
>>>Beth + Dallas Bardot wrote:
>>>>
>>>> We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New
>>>> Worlders.
>
>>If you want to play fantasy, go join AmtGuard. In the meantime, until you can
>>show me documentation on a real live Elf ANYWHERE in history, get real
>>personae.
>
>>Elves indeed....
>
>
> I hate to point this out but like it or not the SCA IS A FANTASTY!
> One based somewhat on pre 1700 history but still a fantasty. As for
> Elfs and such, I expect them to show up just as the storys about them
> are. I.E. the only ones that normaly saw them were drunk at the time.
>
> Kyle
Hmmmm ... actually, you MIGHT be able to get away with an Elf persona
in SCA events. The trick would be to take the elf from a "period" story.
(As in not from Tolkien; from Shakespeare or Spenser perhaps.)
The "elf," of course, should come prepared to defend his/her existence
by reciting the story in which he/she appears. This educates the public
on medieval literature and tweaks the Authenticity Police at the same time.
+---------+
|8 8 8 8 8| VINCENT THE CALCULATOR
+---------+ mka Victor Wong
|8 8 8 8 8| ah...@freenet.carleton.ca
|8 8 8 8 8| Barony of Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere
+---------+
--
Copyright (C) 1996 Victor W. Wong. All rights reserved.
Greycat Sharpclaw
Emrys sends greatings to all upon this bridge:
There is an allegation that kyl...@his.com wrote:
>co...@rt66.com (Ron Umpleby) wrote:
>>Elves indeed....
>I hate to point this out but like it or not the SCA IS A FANTASTY!
>One based somewhat on pre 1700 history but still a fantasty. As for
Indeed it is... but I believe that J.R.R. Tolkien said something
to the effect that a good fantasy must, except for the fantastic
premises taken for creating the fantasy, by as realistic as any
other story form. That is, people must act like people, weapons
act realistically (except for the enchanted ones... but even they
follow basic laws), etc.
The premises the SCA has forced upon itself includes the
"time-mixing" of our personas, etc. But the basic premise is
that this is a culture derived from Western Europe, albeit
largely populated by travellers. Elves don't fit into this
premise *at all*, and no ammount of saying (the true fact) that
the SCA is not reality will not make them belong.
Just my 2 pence.
>Elfs and such, I expect them to show up just as the storys about them
>are. I.E. the only ones that normaly saw them were drunk at the time.
Therefore, they should not be around to be seen by the sober and
sane. There are few times in the SCA where *nobody* is sober. I
don't want to get into sane.
>Kyle
>>**********************************************************
>>*Life is like a sewer... *
>>*What you get out of it depends on what you put into it *
Shouldn't you credit Lehrer (sp?)... or did you get this
somewhere else?
Lord Emrys Cador David M. Mann
Barony of Settmour Swamp gre...@tribeca.ios.com
Eastrealm
gswi...@loop.com
> bar...@cris.COM (Beth + Dallas Bardot) writes:
> We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New
> Worlders.
>
>
>
>>>>
Hey now, let's not be lumping us Japanese and our Aztec friends in with vampires and elves. Life
is tough enough as it is.
Ishido Matsukage
David Friedman
In article <5242sk$k...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, natal...@aol.com
(NatalyaDeF) wrote:
> An interesting dilemma: If you have a strong, well-developed persona out
> of which you never stray, how would you react to an encounter with someone
> garbed in a non-Western, non-Medieval?
Since you know you are in a place where lots of foreigners--people not
from your local area--are found, you assume that he is some sort of
foreigner you haven't met before. Why would a medieval person expect to
know all the sorts of clothing worn by people he might meet?
David/(Cariadoc)
Chris and Elisabeth Zakes
Kim Pollard <k...@inna.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 21 Sep 1996, Michael S. McCollum wrote:
>> Beth + Dallas Bardot wrote:
>> >
>> > We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New
>> > Worlders.
>>
>> Ah, I see. We must accept Elves because they're not European nor common
>> to the European Middle Ages, but rather we treat them as guests of the
>> court? I don't think so. I can project circumstances under which
>> Japanese or folk from the New World might have come in contact with my
>> persona. I can only surmise that I'd see elves after eating moldy rye
>> bread.
>>
>> Eadric
>_____
>Now here's an interesting theory I overheard at Pennsic this year... The
>Good Gentle stated Elves, Trolls, Woodsprites, etc, could be accepted
>because there were people who would impersonate them during our time
>period--probably for the same reason people do now.
>Anyone out there have documentation of this? It really got my curiosity
>up, but I can't find any reference to it outside of characters in a
>Shakespear play (A Midsummer Night's Dream).
>Kimberly
So we can accept elves and such at masked balls, or other "costume
party"-type things within the SCA?
People dressing up and pretending to be people dressing up and
pretending to be elves. I can live with that.
-Tivar Moondragon
Ansteorra
C and E Zakes
Tivar Moondragon (Patience and Persistence)
and Aethelyan of Moondragon (Decadence is its own reward)
moon...@bga.com
Sara Friedemann
natal...@aol.com (NatalyaDeF) writes: > An interesting dilemma: If you have a strong, well-developed persona out
> of which you never stray, how would you react to an encounter with someone
> scream, call for the archers, or faint. Or you could opt for that old
> stand-by of the "Current" Middle Ages which is to be courteous and ask
> about this person's background. Or am I erring on the side of good
> manners over authenticity? -- Natalya de Foix
My opinion is this: many new-comers often do not have the resources or know where to look for garb, etc. Perhaps the
best thing to do would be to talk to them, politely of course. In some cases, good manners are better than
authenticity. Calling for the archers would not be a good idea! ;)
David Corliss
Greetings!
In article <1996092116...@cliff.cris.com>, bar...@cris.COM (Beth + Dallas
Bardot) writes:
> >We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New
> >Worlders.
>
A group of tourists from Japan are well documented to have visited Rome in the late
1500. Persons from the New World arrived in Spain before 1500; whether or not they
were tourists or treated more like zoo animals is a question of some debate.
You should seek to ask questions and learn rather than more broad unsuppportable
statements: that is how I learned about the Japanese tourists here on the Rialto.
Beorthwine of Grafham Wood
arborimg
Beth + Dallas Bardot wrote:
>
> Worlders.
>
I *hope* you're kidding. If not, could you expand upon this idea? The
reasoning here escapes me completely.
Gunnbjorn Gunnarsson
Julia E Smith
In article <32468D...@aa.wl.com>, David Corliss <cor...@aa.wl.com> wrote:
>
>A group of tourists from Japan are well documented to have visited Rome in the
late
>1500. Persons from the New World arrived in Spain before 1500; whether or not
they
>were tourists or treated more like zoo animals is a question of some debate.
>
Ignoring the issue of how the people who came back with Columbus were
treated...Long before 1600, Mexican nobles, who had become allied with the
Spanish were going to Spain on long trips to:
improve their educations (to finish their schooling)
to lay lawsuits before the king (agressively fighting for their
legal rights)
I have read accounts of at least ten trips involving probably 50
indigenous people before 1600. And that's focused on a relatively small
area (all Central Mexico, most from Tlaxcala), though it is the area that
probably had the most people travelling to Spain (The Tlaxcalans were the
Spanish allies against the Aztecs; because they were the first Spanish
allies, they had all kinds of advantages during the early colonial
period).
At any rate, it's clear that at least some people from the New World were
considerably more than "zoo animals" or "curiosities" (though some were
certainly that too). Lots of indigenous Americans were brought back to be
a spectacle (there is a description of one such spectacle that involved 50
Native Americans, as well as a few hundred Frenchmen - I think -
pretending to be Native Americans).
Juliana de Luna
Julia Smith
jes...@pitt.edu
Sean Slattery
> >Worlders.
Ah, have to disagree with you here... New worlders were brought to Europe in period. Japanese wer not, tO my knowledge, but they are something that at least a few europeans were aware of. We also accept russians, turks, Africans, Indians and lotsa people from pre period. We can't deny that the people interested in these things have an interest in history, and can do some really interezsting research.
How do you document the existence of elves? I'm lost on this one. While I'm not a purist, vampires, elves and trolls have no place with this group.
Beowulf
--
Ah Grendel, don't let my disarming nature get to you.
"Hold! Naughty Spawn!"
I am also the Tick on my good days.
Sean Slattery
In article <521muj$9...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>, v081...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu wrote:
> I *like* that idea! I already know Middle English (i.e. can read
> and pronounce it, and even "speak" it after reading Chaucer for a bit)
> and Latin...
Ye wax wode.
Sara Friedemann
arborimg <arbo...@mail.ic.net> writes: > Beth + Dallas Bardot wrote:
> >
> > We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New
> > Worlders.
> >
>
> I *hope* you're kidding. If not, could you expand upon this idea? The
> reasoning here escapes me completely.
>
> Gunnbjorn Gunnarsson
Me too. Logic is not my strong point, but it fails me here. :)
Aeronwy Cadwaladr
Shire of Falcon's Keep
Kingdom of the Middle
Bryan J. Maloney
> We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New
> Worlders.
Really? And what continent are the Elves from? What documentation of
their existence can be had? Last time I looked, Japan and the Americas
could be found on most reputable globes. Can't say the same for Arcadia
or Tir na nog...
Bryan J. Maloney
In article <521qnf$2...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, seek...@ix.netcom.com
(Michael J. Watson) wrote:
> jkr...@aol.com (JkrissW) wrote:
>
> >In article <1996092116...@cliff.cris.com>, bar...@cris.COM (Beth +
> >Dallas Bardot) writes:
>
> >>We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New
> >>Worlders.
> >>
> >>Lord Aethelwyn Aethelredson, CTC
>
> The only reason I can see, in period ,for excepting Elvish personas is
> if the person is recreating a jester or a lunatic. In the first case
That's why the folks in Flaming Gryphon accept Gildor--resident jester and
lunatic!
Is Gildor still around? He could send a whole room bent over in laughter...
Bryan J. Maloney
In article <521atk$d...@panix.com>, mit...@panix.com wrote:
> Aethelwyn Aethelredson pronounced:
>
> > We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New
> > Worlders.
>
> We "must" accept nothing at all. We _could_ restrict the game to London in
> 1345 and exclude anyone who didn't fit that setting.
Cool! I'll work on my tunics and Chaucer!
Bryan J. Maloney
> In the mid 14th century there was a group of about 22 japanese warriors
> that made it to a court in Italy, I do not have the documentation at hand
> but if I pressured I can find it.
Oooh! Oooh!
PRESSURE!
PRESSURE!
PRESSURE!
This is too darn neat a thing not to have documented and cited!
Bryan J. Maloney
My wife is thinking of working on a Northeast/Atlantic Amerind
persona--convert to Catholicism and lives with the French in the area...
Bryan J. Maloney
> Peasants are easier to document than Elves as being in Period.
>
> Still, we don't really use either persona. SCA persona are assumed to
> be gentry. As a Peer friend of mine once said, "You can call yourself a
If the presumption is gentry, why address each other as "Lord" or "Lady"
instead of "Master" or "Mistress". "Lord" and "Lady" is far too
presumptious for the gentry. "Master" and "Mistress" is appropriate.
rosalyn rice
>A group of tourists from Japan are well documented to have visited Rome
> in the late 1500.
Yes, they took back extensive pictorial documentation of their visit.
Lothar
Wilho N. Suominen
Why don't you just ask them if they are in a Play?
or ask them
if they liked a Midsummers night dream?
kyl...@his.com
gre...@tribeca.ios.com (Greycat Sharpclaw) wrote:
>Emrys sends greatings to all upon this bridge:
>There is an allegation that kyl...@his.com wrote:
>>co...@rt66.com (Ron Umpleby) wrote:
>>>Elves indeed....
>>I hate to point this out but like it or not the SCA IS A FANTASTY!
>>One based somewhat on pre 1700 history but still a fantasty. As for
>Indeed it is... but I believe that J.R.R. Tolkien said something
>to the effect that a good fantasy must, except for the fantastic
>premises taken for creating the fantasy, by as realistic as any
>other story form. That is, people must act like people, weapons
>act realistically (except for the enchanted ones... but even they
>follow basic laws), etc.
Basic laws for enchantments? ;)
>The premises the SCA has forced upon itself includes the
>"time-mixing" of our personas, etc. But the basic premise is
>that this is a culture derived from Western Europe, albeit
>largely populated by travellers. Elves don't fit into this
>premise *at all*, and no ammount of saying (the true fact) that
>the SCA is not reality will not make them belong.
>Just my 2 pence.
I for one don't look for elf trolls or any such as SCA events because
that is not what I am there for. I like history and I like the
consept of makeing the good parts part of my fun.
>>Elfs and such, I expect them to show up just as the storys about them
>>are. I.E. the only ones that normaly saw them were drunk at the time.
>Therefore, they should not be around to be seen by the sober and
>sane. There are few times in the SCA where *nobody* is sober. I
>don't want to get into sane.
Funny 2 weeks at the war and most of the time eveyone around me was
sober, 2 years in a row no less. Indeed, most of the time that I have
been doing SCA stuff, most of the people were sober.
>>Kyle
>>>**********************************************************
>>>*Life is like a sewer... *
>>>*What you get out of it depends on what you put into it *
>Shouldn't you credit Lehrer (sp?)... or did you get this
>somewhere else?
Sorry, I did not put that in, just forgot to remove it from the
message I replied to.
Kyle
Grizel (Jen Funk)
Bryan J. Maloney wrote:
> Is Gildor still around? He could send a whole room bent over in laughter...
Hail from Flamomg Gryphon, Why yes Gildor is still around. Probably
wearing the same green velvet tunic he wore way back....
He's not the local clown anymore, but he does still fight, arch and
shoot.
We all sort of share the the clown prince duties around here. But
Master Dmitrii is sort of the master of one liners.
Grizel
David K. Schreur
In article <5279se$m...@castle.nando.net>, ho...@nando.net (Fred Homan) wrote:
> Bryan J. Maloney (bj...@cornell.edu) wrote:
> : In article <324630...@pe.net>, brog...@pe.net wrote:
> : >
> : > Still, we don't really use either persona. SCA persona are assumed to
> : > be gentry. As a Peer friend of mine once said, "You can call yourself a
> :
> : If the presumption is gentry, why address each other as "Lord" or "Lady"
> : instead of "Master" or "Mistress". "Lord" and "Lady" is far too
> : presumptious for the gentry. "Master" and "Mistress" is appropriate.
>
> I think that Edwin meant to say that the presumption is that SCA personae
> are _minor_nobility_ not gentry. Obviously this makes more sense with the
> assumption of arms being allowed only to nobility, yes?
>
> Fred Op
Actually I know of a few people who have chosen to be peasants, beggars
actually, as their personna because they felt that that aspect of medieval
culture was lacking. I wholly approved of their adding to the depth of
the recreation, especialy because they did so with a real sense of fun.
Of course, the point is no one HAS to be a peasant, you would have to
conciously CHOOSE to be one, and most people prefer the gentry (minor
nobility being the armigers).
--
David K. Schreur (Ritter Baron Meister Karl Aerdigwidder von Zauberberg)
Barony of Bhakail, East Kingdom
Saepe errabimus sed semper honore
Morte ex morte
David K. Schreur (Ritter Baron Meister Karl Aerdigwidder von Zauberberg)
Barony Bhakail, East Kingdom
Saepe errabimus sed semper honore
Morte ex morte
Emily Allison Whitfield
what i've heard as a way to deal with elves is to do so in a period manner
(well, sorta...). basically, catch them and tie them to something and
don't let them go until they grant you a wish. :)
Fred Homan
kyl...@his.com wrote:
: I hate to point this out but like it or not the SCA IS A FANTASTY!
: One based somewhat on pre 1700 history but still a fantasty. As for
I think you're confusing two related but different meanings of fantasy:
a) of or relating to the fantastic (things can not exit), and b)
things that do not (but could or did in similar form) exist but are
recreated. Elves belong to a), while the SCA belongs to b). The SCA's
type of b) tries for as much historical accuracy as is both bearable
and fun for its participants (Note that this has led to the eternal
debates/discussions/fights on just how to implement fun and accuracy
in a good balance). Elves clearly are historical in literature but are
not historical in reliable documentation. Thus, they clearly fall into
the realm of the nonexistent and fantastic.
: Elfs and such, I expect them to show up just as the storys about them
: are. I.E. the only ones that normaly saw them were drunk at the time.
Unless someone can prove they existed in period. And, I mean prove in the
definite, scientific sense. In that case, I'd be among the first to be
an elf in the SCA. *grin*
Fred Op
Fred Homan
JkrissW
In article <324583...@cyberhighway.net>, Tireachan
<alph...@cyberhighway.net> writes:
> Was this posting a joke to yank my chain and get me riled
>or what?
>
>Tireachan
I now suspect as much, myself.
Daveed of Granada, AoA, CHA
From the Barony of Lyondemere in fair Caid
mka J. Kriss White in smoggy L.A.
jkr...@aol.com
VirtualMu
Oh my, what a hornet's nest those folk from Phoenix Aerie have stirred up.
Elves, pixies, faeries, satyrs and other of the "Little People" in the
SCA. And what are we going to do about them?
To begin with, we can't actually discount their existence completely
within period. After all, most legends, myths and fables started with
SOME basic foundation to build from. Of course, there is no documentable
proof of their existence, but they were all a secretive folk to begin
with. And TOO many cultures with no contact between them have stories of
this sort for the idea to be discounted completely.
However, I agree with Kyle (and remember a conversation of this sort
at our camp at War) that to be true to their races within "period"
documentation, they should be discreet. Very discreet! They tended to
appear to the drunk or the simple or those in great distress or those with
a serious need of attitude adjustment. And they appeared singly, leaving
little or no evidence behind them, often taking on human guise (like
Changelings and Silkies). Those people who insist on playing the Fey
within the SCA should stay within these guidelines.
But they won't. They feel they have the right to represent
themselves in any manner they choose. They pay their money like the rest
of us, and will only get more defensive and possibly downright beligerent
if we insist on spoiling their fun. We will be unable to show them the
"error of their ways". Especially if we try to do it with anger.
My suggestion is that we choose the medieval way of handling them.
We refuse to see them, or refuse to see them for what they are. It is
consistent in all faerie mythos that the common man sees only what he
expects to see. Unicorns appeared as white mares, sidhe appeared as
humans, pixies appeared as Picts (the TRUE little people). The best way
to make them go away, as far as I can figure, is to ignore them. To treat
them as the humans they choose not to be. Pretend that we are unable to
see through the glamour unless we are drunk, or simple, or children.
When they realize they're having no effect on the world as Fey, they
will either decide to play by the rules stated in the Corpora, or they'll
just GO AWAY. But the more we fight them, the more they'll fight us. We
will unite them, martyr them, and otherwise make it more difficult for
ourselves. But if we frustrate them, make them feel uncomfortable rather
than unwelcome, and refuse to be fazed by their fashion statements,
they'll eventually get bored.
Think about it.
BTW: There were Native "Americans" in Europe well before Columbus.
The Vikings that landed in NorthEastern Canada brought Skrellings back
with them to the Norselands to replace crewmembers that had died on the
voyages out. I don't have the documentation at hand, but I've read it in
some reliable source or another many years ago while researching the
voyages of Leif Erickson.
-- Plunder
Gaelwyn ap Taliessin
I believe I remember hearing about this. Didn't they all have a small
artist hanging from their necks...or something? I also seem to remember
hearing that the Italians grew tired of the incessant bowing.
HAHAHAHAHAHA.
Uh-oh, my Celtic/Mongolian sense of humor is showing, again.
Gaelwyn
D. Peters
In article <bjm10-23099...@132.236.156.81>,
Well, okay, but Chaucer was about two years old in 1345....:-)
Cheers,
D.Peters
Who might not mind a 1492 cutoff date, but isn't going to lobby for it
right now....
David M. Razler
>> >>About new worlders, that is pushing it a bit, but how about the
>converted
>> >>indians that columbus brought back for a start?
>>
>>
>> >>Eric Rhude
>
M'lord:
Whatever the context, I must point out that the only *conversion*
Columbus performed was to convert the people involved from free person to
slave.
dmr/A,T
David M. Razler
david....@worldnet.att.net
Dale Gee
Edwin Hewitt (brog...@pe.net) wrote:
: Peasants are easier to document than Elves as being in Period.
: Still, we don't really use either persona. SCA persona are assumed to
: be gentry. As a Peer friend of mine once said, "You can call yourself a
I have been doing a beggar/peasant persona for about 15 years now.
It is my sincere hope that you do treat me like a peasant. If you
do not, then it means I am doing a poor job of presenting my persona.
John Patrick Carten
House Mendicus aka the beggars guild
Bryan J. Maloney
> I think that Edwin meant to say that the presumption is that SCA personae
> are _minor_nobility_ not gentry. Obviously this makes more sense with the
> assumption of arms being allowed only to nobility, yes?
But arms weren't only allowed to the nobility--another SCA cock-up. If
you had the coins to rub together, you could get hold of a device/coat of
arms fairly easily (once Europe had started using 'em) up until quite late
in "period"--and even then it wasn't nearly as restricted as we like to
tell ourselves.
By the time England had a "gentry", any gentleman (member of the gentry)
could get a coat of arms.
In Mitteleuropa, the condition was even less static or heirarchical.
Sandra McDaniel
rosalyn rice wrote:
>
> In article <32459E...@pe.net>, Edwin Hewitt <brog...@pe.net> wrote:
> >Beth + Dallas Bardot wrote:
> >time Tolkien Elvish was the ONLY non-period language allowed by the SCA.
> >The early SCA seemed to use literary rather than a purely authentic
> >period examples to design its culture. Frankly, the SCA emphasis on
> >honor and chivalry comes from its literary and romantic foundations.
>
> Elvish names have been banned by the heralds for a *long* time. I
> think that the ban came down in the early 80's, but I forget the exact
> year. The ban was in place, and was considered old, from the time that I
> first started with heraldry ca. 1987.
>
> I think originally the idea was that the SCA was so heavily
> influenced by Tolkien that the heralds *had* to register Elvish names in
> order to cater to popular wishes. Eventually Tolkien's popularity in the
> SCA diminished to the point where the ban was a non-issue.
>
> Lothar
As to the "literary" origins of the SCA:
The founders of the SCA were bohemian history mavens in the Berkeley of
the 1960s. Most were well educated and interested in literature ranging from
sci-fi to Chaucer; but I think it's a mistake to see a "literary" bent in
early SCA naming practices. The early SCA was spontaneous and fairly
slap-dash. Nobody would at that time have dreamed of today's international ,
corporate SCA.
The Tolkeinish names, along with other things, like Amerind and Samurai
personae, were much more the result of trying to get non-medievally inclined
friends to come and play, than any intentional literary theme. When it
started to get out of hand, a stop was put to some of it. Had not some very
early Mistian dukes had Japanese and American Indian personae, campaigns to
get rid of them would more likely have succeeded. I remember Woodford of
Lorien got in JUST under the wire in about 1969 or '70.
S.B. McDaniel
rosalyn rice
In article <324825...@earthlink.net>,
Sandra McDaniel <fret...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> The Tolkeinish names, along with other things, like Amerind and Samurai
>personae, were much more the result of trying to get non-medievally inclined
>friends to come and play, than any intentional literary theme. When it
>started to get out of hand, a stop was put to some of it. Had not some very
>early Mistian dukes had Japanese and American Indian personae, campaigns to
>get rid of them would more likely have succeeded. I remember Woodford of
>Lorien got in JUST under the wire in about 1969 or '70.
That's my point. I'm not accusing the original founders of the
SCA of being more interested in fantasy than medieval history, I'm just
saying that Tolkien's works had a far more profound effect on SF Fandom in
the 60's and 70's than they do today.
Since there was/is a great deal of Fan/SCA cross-over, it was seen
to be necessary to allow fantasy names (or rather, nobody thought to
disallow fantasy names) and since Tolkien was the biggest name in fantasy
at the time, Elvish names were more common. As Tolkien's influence waned
and the heralds became more organized and authoritarian, a ban on Elvish
names was instituted.
When I was doing heraldry (from about 1988-1995), not once did I
hear of anyone wanting an *Elvish* fantasy name. I heard of people
running afoul of the name rules in all sorts of other ways, but I never
heard of anyone deliberately choosing an Elvish name. By that time, other
fantasy influences were much more common e.g. Highlander, Star Trek:TNG,
Vampires, Pern, etc. so people who did want fantasy names tended to
choose them from sources other than Tolkien.
Lothar
Susan Carroll-Clark
Greetings!
>People dressing up and pretending to be people dressing up and
>pretending to be elves. I can live with that.
So can I, so long as it's not a regular practice, but one done on
special occasions (you know, masked balls, Twelfth Nights, etc.) and
the person, when asked, does not *insist* he/she is "really" an elf.
And no Tolkein or other modern fantasy elves, please. It would actually
be kinda neat if someone showed up as Titania or Oberon or other fairy
folk whose stories were known in period.
Cheers--
Nicolaa de Bracton
scl...@chass.utoronto.ca
Tireachan
Well, since they're being thoroughly blasted from every angle but
haven't responded, it must have been a hoax.... a poor one at that.
Tireachan
Huntsmen of the North
bar...@cris.COM (Beth + Dallas Bardot) wrote:
>We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New
>Worlders.
>Lord Aethelwyn Aethelredson, CTC
Now why in the world MUST Elves be accepted when not even Rapier is
accepted ?
Confusion To Our Enemies,
Ken
ASHFORD ACADEMY of RENNAISANCE ARTS
http://members.tripod.com/~Rapierist/_ashford_index.html_
Joseph H. Greene
On 21 Sep 1996, Beth + Dallas Bardot wrote:
> We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New
> Worlders.
What, that they existed in period though they would have been rare in a
European setting? I'd like to see the documentation on that.
No, I'm not just being catty. Well, a little bit. Basically, I'm
wondering what these reasons are, as you really didn't state them. The
reason _I_ accept Japanese and New Worlders is because they _did_ exist,
in period. Admittedly, they were pretty rare in Europe (Japanese, if I
recall, were pretty much nonexistent; I've never heard of a Japanese
traveling to Europe in period, though others may have better sources than I).
I would not accept Elves for that reason... since I've never heard _any_
historian suggest that elves were ezistant anyhwere duyring the period of
the SCA (or after, for that matter).
If people want to play Elves, that's fine. But is this a historical
society or a fantasy one? If it's fantasy, I know somebody who wants to
have a dragon persona!
Slan,
Seosaidh
***********************************************************************
* Joseph H. Greene * Tighearn Seosaidh MacFaoilcheire *
* Assistive Technology Specialist * Chief to Clan MacFaoilcheire *
* CSU, San Bernardino * Knight-Marshal of Drachenfeld *
* jgr...@csci.csusb.edu * Society for Creative Anachronism *
***********************************************************************
Chris and Elisabeth Zakes
scl...@chass.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark) wrote:
>Greetings!
Precisely what I had in mind.
. . .And then there was the lady who wore a little "horn" on her
forehead, and claimed she was actually a unicorn, who had been changed
into a human.
Fortunately, she didn't stay around very long.
-Tivar Moondragon
(No, "Savage Sword of Conan" is *not* a "primary source".<G>)
C and E Zakes
Tivar Moondragon (Patience and Persistence)
and Aethelyan of Moondragon (Decadence is its own reward)
moon...@bga.com
Gunnora Hallakarva
In article <52912l$3...@chass.utoronto.ca>, scl...@chass.utoronto.ca says...
>
>Greetings!
>
>>People dressing up and pretending to be people dressing up and
>>pretending to be elves. I can live with that.
>
>So can I, so long as it's not a regular practice, but one done on
>special occasions (you know, masked balls, Twelfth Nights, etc.) and
>the person, when asked, does not *insist* he/she is "really" an elf.
Or another idea would be to have the persona of a madman whose delusion was that
they were an alf... an Ansteorra event called Whitsun Faire recreated a fair-ground
environment, which would not only draw peddlars, shoppers, beggars and thieves, but
also the mad and ill hoping for alms. We have had one lady here do a VERY convincing
madwoman routine! It's not the kind of thing you can probably do all the time, but for
certain events it can add to the overall atmosphere if done by someone with a good
sense of propriety and a heavy levening of good judgement (I mean, after all, you DO
have to avoid the persona-impaired AND the humor-impaired to pull this off.)
::GUNNORA::
Gunnora Hallakarva
Herskerinde
===========================================
Ek eigi visa (th)ik hversu o(dh)lask Lofstirrlauf-Kruna
heldr hversu na Hersis-A(dh)al
Gunnora Hallakarva
In article <523qjd$a...@mack.rt66.com>, co...@rt66.com
says...
>>Beth + Dallas Bardot wrote:
>>>
>>> We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept
Japanese, and New
>>> Worlders.
>
meantime, until you can
>show me documentation on a real live Elf ANYWHERE in
history, get real
>personae.
>
>Elves indeed....
>*co...@rt66.com *
>*http://www.rt66.com/~colin *
Actually there was Olav Geirstadalfar, who was considered
to be part elf. The pagan Norse, Anglo-Saxons and Germans
believed this could happen. I'm too lazy to get up and dig in
my library, but I could probably find another example or two
from the historical period.
The point is NOT that it wasn't occasionally done in period to
claim to be an elf or be decended from elves, whether by
crazies or people who believed in non-himan races, but rather
that people trying to pull the same thing off in the Current
Middle Ages make our willing suspension of disbelief even
MORE difficult than it already is!
Another note, elves in Norse cosmology are technically in the
class of "dead things"... many people believed that their
deceased ancestors in their grave mounds became elves, the
"next step on the cosmic wheel" sort of idea. The Fairie
Mound is actually a grave mound, transformed by imagination
and folklore. A barrow wight, a la Tolkein, has more in common
with the original conception of elves than do the etherial
creations of Shakespeare.
::GUNNORA::
--
WMclean290
ho...@nando.net (Fred Homan) wrote:
>
>
>> I think that Edwin meant to say that the presumption is that SCA
personae
>> are _minor_nobility_ not gentry. Obviously this makes more sense with
the
>> assumption of arms being allowed only to nobility, yes?
>
>
Actually, if you're on the continent "noblesse" had a meaning a bit more
inclusive than "nobility" in England. So "gentle" in England and "noble"
on the continent aren't necessarily that different.
Galleron
rosalyn rice
In article <bjm10-24099...@132.236.156.81>,
Bryan J. Maloney <bj...@cornell.edu> wrote:
>But arms weren't only allowed to the nobility--another SCA cock-up. If
>you had the coins to rub together, you could get hold of a device/coat of
>arms fairly easily (once Europe had started using 'em) up until quite late
>in "period"--and even then it wasn't nearly as restricted as we like to
>tell ourselves.
While I would be the first to agree that the SCA heraldic system
is completely screwed up, this isn't quite correct. First of all, you
over simplify what social classes could use arms (and when they started
using them). Secondly, you make it sound as if you had to buy the right
to use arms, which was not usually te case.
As far as we can tell, heraldic designs first evolved among the
greater nobility in Flanders and Northern France in the mid to late 12th
c. (The first known heraldic device is on the tomb of Geoffrey of Anjou,
ca. 1186.)
Due to a number of factors arms were quickly adopted by most of
the landholding class that we think of as "knights" - the lesser nobility
and the gentry. Gradually, as the use of heraldry became more common, and
there was more time for people to rise and fall in social class (and in
addition, as many men who could be knights avoided being knighted to avoid
tax liabilities) the use of arms spread to people who would imitate this
"knightly" class - rich peasants and merchants. Finally, the use of arms
became common enough that anyone who wanted to use arms could adopt them.
The complexity arises when you try to figure out exactly who was
using arms, and when and where were they using them. The spread of arms
to the middle class is certainly well-documented by the 14th c. but it
might have happened earlier (I haven't done the research so I don't know).
I don't know when and where peasants adopted arms, just know that they
are recorded as having done so.
So, depending on your persona, it would be perfectly acceptable
to use arms (if you were a peasant) or completely unknown.
>By the time England had a "gentry", any gentleman (member of the gentry)
>could get a coat of arms.
This is a very late Period phenonomenon. In earlier times arms
were assumed by whoever wanted to assume them, and they were confirmed at
a later date by the local ruler or by a college or arms. Relatively few
arms in the SCA's time Period were "granted" by a monarch or a college of
arms. It is only in a few, late-period instances that arms were "granted"
by the heralds in the modern fashion - the heralds designing the arms for
you.
Lothar
Jeff Suzuki
Matthew Saroff (msa...@pobox.com) wrote:
: The only documented Japanese in Europe at that time were (I
: think) 12 Benedictine Monks who had an audience with the Pope,
: which means that a Euro-Japanese personae might justifiably be
: limited to a monk.
Solveig could give you names, dates, places, but I think this
statement is essentially right, although I do seem to remember that
there were several who studied for the priesthood. (Anyway, what I
know for certain is that the Bishop for Japan died en route, which
meant that no Japanese priests could be ordained _in Japan_ until the
19th century)
Fujimoto
badger bagbane
from the follow-up postings i REALLY don't think this would be a good
time to become a Celtic Klingon. do you think woad would stick to a
D-7 in space? :>
badger
Badger Bagbane
MY KEYBOARD WORKS AGAIN FOLKS!
WATCH OUT FOR THEM ENCRYPTED TEXT FILES =<
bag...@ix.netcom.com
www.geocities.com/tokyo/1417
www.netcom.com/~bagbane
Sandra McDaniel
Ms. Rice,
Sorry, I did understand what you were trying to say and I agree with
you. My point was more to underscore the backyard party origins of the
SCA. I've seen so many posts from more recent members who have the
misimpression that the SCA was carefully planned and who see Corporate
organization and tradition as somehow holy because of this.
BTW, I've enjoyed reading all of your postings.
S.B. McDaniel
Andrea Luxenburg
Kerry wrote:
>
> ->Beth + Dallas Bardot wrote:
> ->
> -> We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and
> New
> -> Worlders.
> ->
>
> I've been lurking here for quite a long time... but THIS I feel I
> should say something about.
>
> The SCA has been, to me, for the past 9 years or so, a way of
> experiencing history. Elves are NOT a part of history. They have as
> much of a part in society NOW in 1996, as they ever did in the period
> between 600 and 1600ad... in that they are purely legendary.
>
> On the other hand, many people put a great deal of emphasis on the
> Creative part of SCA, and I don't think anyone should particularly
> rain on their parade.
>
> Personally, if I saw someone at an event with pointy ears, I'd
> probably say "milord, what ails your ears?" or something. If he
> replied "I'm an elf, milord, the wee folk all have pointy ears" I'd
> probably laugh my head off.
>
> To get to the point: If you want to have an elf persona, or a three
> footed burmese handstanding mugwump persona, that's fine by me. Don't
> expect anyone to take you seriously, or make special considerations
> for you in court or anything. I know I wouldn't.
>
> -Igar Bjarki
Maybe we could discuss at what remove elven/supernatural ancestry or connections are period. I
am thinking, for instance, of an ancestor of Richard the Lionheart who was said to become a
serpent from the waist down every Sunday, or Elidor, whom Geraldus Cambrensis reported to have
visited the Little People regularly until he stole a golden ball from them. There is even
supposed to be an account of two green-skinned children (I don't remember if their ears were
pointy) who showed up somewhere in England one fine day, claiming (later, after they learned the
language) to have come from some land where it was always twilight. The girl is even said to
eventually have had offspring, from whom certain families in the area descend. (I'm thinking
it was William of Malmesbury's chronicle, but I could be totally wrong about that.) Even
Charlemagne's mother, Bertha Goosefoot, could be interpreted, many years later, as so-named not
for big feet, but because she was a fay, many of whom were said to have certain animal-like
appendages. And that's not even considering the many family trees which begin with a divine or
heroic ancestor. So I'm not sure we can totally rule out elven ancestors, if the person has done
the research to make them period elven ancestors.
Gwen Goosefoot, all of whose ancestors were depressingly human
just julia
VirtualMu (virt...@aol.com) wrote:
: Oh my, what a hornet's nest those folk from Phoenix Aerie have stirred up.
: Elves, pixies, faeries, satyrs and other of the "Little People" in the
: SCA. And what are we going to do about them?
: To begin with, we can't actually discount their existence completely
: within period. After all, most legends, myths and fables started with
: SOME basic foundation to build from.
So, you got any folklorists you can quote who will agree with you that if
a supernatural being is mentioned in a folkloric source, the being has to
exist? I've been studying folklore for four years, and I have yet to
come across this belief.
While it is true that certain types of folkloric material (especially
legends, sagas, and naming stories) tend to have a basis in some sort of
fact, that does not mean the story is true. An event such as a shooting
star, or hearing odd noises at night can be transformed in a story into
evidence of fairies. That doesn't mean that they existed. Also, other
categories of folklore such as fairy tales, folk tales, and sacred history
are much more likely to consist of pure fantasy with very little basis in
reality.
: with. And TOO many cultures with no contact between them have stories of
: this sort for the idea to be discounted completely.
<snark> If you mention Joseph Campbell, I'll have to shoot you.
: My suggestion is that we choose the medieval way of handling them.
: We refuse to see them, or refuse to see them for what they are.
Or, banish them!
"A charm against witches and the tricks of elves
Against every evil witch/wizard and against the tricks of elves
write this writing in Greek letters: ++A++O+yo+iFBym+++++BeppNNI
KNETTANI"
"A salve against elves
Work up this salve against the race of elves and creatures that move
about in the night and against those with whom the devil has had
sexual intercoruse. Take hops, wormwood, bishop's wort, lupine,
vervain, henbane, harewort, viper's bugloss, sprouts of heathberry,
leek, garlic, seeds of cleavers, cockle, fennel.
Put the herbs in a vat, place in under the altar, sing 9 masses over
them, boil them for a time in butter, and in sheep's lard, put
much holy salt on them, strain the mixture with a cloth, then throw
the herbs in running water.
If a person is tempted by evil, or troubled by elves or creatures that
move about in the night, smear his face with this salve, and his eyes,
and wherever his body may be painful. And burn incense around him and
make the sign of the cross.
His condition will soon be better"
Both from Cockayne's _Leechbook_ 10th cent.
I'm taking a course this semester on "Magic in Medieval Literature" <joy>
julia
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
**Before posting, please read the articles in news.announce.newusers**
"She was infatuated with their male prostitutes, whose members were
like those of donkeys and whose seed came in floods like that of
stallions." --Ezekiel 23:20 http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~jstarkey
Joseph H. Greene
On Tue, 24 Sep 1996, Tireachan wrote:
>
> Well, since they're being thoroughly blasted from every angle but
> haven't responded, it must have been a hoax.... a poor one at that.
Hey! This gives us support for Trolls in the SCA!
Ok... so it was feeble... :-)
Be seeing you,
JHG
Wolgemuth Andrew G
rosalyn rice (ror...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
: "knightly" class - rich peasants and merchants. Finally, the use of arms
: The complexity arises when you try to figure out exactly who was
: using arms, and when and where were they using them. The spread of arms
: to the middle class is certainly well-documented by the 14th c. but it
: might have happened earlier (I haven't done the research so I don't know).
: I don't know when and where peasants adopted arms, just know that they
: are recorded as having done so.
:
: So, depending on your persona, it would be perfectly acceptable
: to use arms (if you were a peasant) or completely unknown.
: This is a very late Period phenonomenon. In earlier times arms
: were assumed by whoever wanted to assume them, and they were confirmed at
: a later date by the local ruler or by a college or arms. Relatively few
: arms in the SCA's time Period were "granted" by a monarch or a college of
: arms. It is only in a few, late-period instances that arms were "granted"
: by the heralds in the modern fashion - the heralds designing the arms for
: you.
Even though I probably know less on the subject than the average
village idiot, I feel compelled to nitpick. First, the concept of arms
of assumption seems to imply that giving heralds ulcers is a period
practice ("YOU have arms? Since WHAT year?? Couldn't it have crossed
your mind to even MENTION it to me?? Just in passing??? Yes, [sigh] I
suppose that that technically does mean that Earl So-and-so's coat is
pretence. The king ain't gonna like this...."). Second, probably as a
response to the sort of situation above, though arms of assumption were
perfectly legal, they were considered to have a lesser legal status than
granted, inherited or ecclesiastical arms ("Should'a told someone. Earl
So-and-so had them _granted_. Too late to complain now. Sorry.")
A. Wolgemuth (Let's see, you've been carrying "Gules, three lioncels in
pale passant guardant or" around for a week and would like to register it
as arms of assumption.....)
Daryle Pompeo
> >>Beth + Dallas Bardot wrote:
> >>>
> >>> We must accept Elves for the same reasons we accept Japanese, and New
> >>> Worlders.
Whoa! When Columbus (and Magellan, etc..) went to the New World, there were
real, walking, talking, existing homo-sapiens there. In Japan, also, were
these selfsame homo-sapiens, existing as real people. How you can equate their
presence as equal to that of leprechauns, garden gnomes, or elves? There were
stories about elves then, yes, but they also believed there were dragons in the
seas they had not explored. Would you have these as well? I probably don't
want the answer.
---
Ser Severin Visconti di Milano
Wyvernwood, Trimaris
Brian M. Scott
In article <baronfum-230...@chestnut1-28.slip.netaxs.com>,
baro...@netaxs.com says...
[I'm piggy-backing here, since I haven't otherwise seen the post quoted
below.]
>In article <5279se$m...@castle.nando.net>, ho...@nando.net (Fred Homan)
>wrote:
>> I think that Edwin meant to say that the presumption is that SCA personae
>> are _minor_nobility_ not gentry. Obviously this makes more sense with the
>> assumption of arms being allowed only to nobility, yes?
This belongs in the Top 10 Myths thread, I'm afraid. Personal armory
was used for just a little more than the last 400 years of our period.
For most of that time self-assumption of armory was the rule. Some
peasants were assuming arms at the beginning of the 13th c. Of the
mediaeval armories available today, some 40% were borne by artisans,
merchants, etc. - the middle-class-to-be. England and Scotland are
unusual, perhaps unique, in their regulation of armory, and even there
effective regulation came very late from our point of view.
Talan Gwynek
rosalyn rice
In article <52d3um$1...@knot.queensu.ca>,
Wolgemuth Andrew G <4a...@qlink.queensu.ca> wrote:
>rosalyn rice (ror...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
> Even though I probably know less on the subject than the average
>village idiot, I feel compelled to nitpick. First, the concept of arms
>of assumption seems to imply that giving heralds ulcers is a period
>practice
First of all, I will say that I used to be a herald, until I
learned enough and got fed up enough with the SCA's heraldic system to quit.
I used to tilt at windmills trying to convince people that the
SCA's heraldic system was "wrong" and that they ought to change things.
All this did was piss people off and waste bandwidth, so I'm deliberately
not going to rehash my old arguments. The SCA's heraldic rules though only
vaguely resembling medieval heraldic practice, seem to satisfy the
majority of people. I'm not going to try to get them to change the rules
of the game.
Your assumption in the first part of your post is that is
desirable to give heralds ulcers. (Don't worry, they do it well enough on
their own.) This implies that you believe that what medieval heralds did
is similar to what SCA heralds do. That isn't so.
Medieval heralds were originally tournament organizers whose
functions *very* roughly mapped to the functions of autocrat and marshall
at an SCA tourney. They were responsible for organizing the lists,
refereeing, announcing the combatants, and keeping out the hoi-polloi.
Early heralds were itinerant entertainers, who were ranked with
travelling musicians and other folk of that sort.
Gradually, due to their association with the tournament, they
began to learn and describe the arms borne by men fighting in the
tournament. They also began to attach themselves to the households of
nobles where they served as messengers and diplomats. This marked the
rise in status of the heralds (which was remarked upon and bitterly
resented by the other travelling entertainers). Their attempts to
describe and codify arms eventually became what we call "heraldry".
By the 14th c. heralds were accorded the status of gentlemen and
were essentially diplomats, messengers, and protocol officers. If you've
seen the Brannagh "Henry V" then the character of Montjoie, the French
herald is a perfect example of a herald from that period. Heraldry (the
designing and describing of arms) was only a minor part of the duties of
the herald.
It is only in the 15th c. and only in some countries (notably
England and Scotland) that heralds were given monopoly over the granting
of arms. As Europe moved towards nation-states and the tournament
declined in popularity the power of the heralds decreased until by the
17th c. their functions were limited to the granting of arms, the
researching of pedigrees, and attendence at high royal ceremonial
events - basically their modern role.
So, for most of the time that heralds existed as a class, they
existed as a subordinate class. A 13th c. itinerant herald wouldn't dare
to tell a noble lord what sort of arms he could use. A 14th c. herald
might suggest a design, but would be more likely to merely record a new
design without comment than criticize it. A 15th c. herald might
criticize the adoption of new arms in a heraldic treatise, but he wouldn't
do anything about it (not unlike SCA heralds!). A 16th c. English herald
could deface and remove arms not properly matriculated though the College
of Arms.
("YOU have arms? Since WHAT year?? Couldn't it have crossed
>your mind to even MENTION it to me?? Just in passing??? Yes, [sigh] I
>suppose that that technically does mean that Earl So-and-so's coat is
>pretence. The king ain't gonna like this....").
There are a couple of mistaken assumptions here.
First of all, people who adopted arms *used* them, and heralds
always were on the lookout for arms that they weren't familiar with. A
medieval herald probably thought of "heraldry" as the ability to memorize
and describe as many arms as possible and accurately assign them to the
people who used them.
Secondly, arms were only reasonably expected to be unique within
the area where they were commonly used. If a country was large enough,
people from different regions of the country might use identical designs.
Occasionally this resulted in conflict, e.g. Scrope v. Grosvenor v.
Carminow, but mostly it seems not to have raised comment. The idea that
arms have to be unique in the world (certainly outside of the kingdom
where they were used) is unique to the SCA.
Third, for most of the time that heraldry was used, arms were
used by adoption and were only later (sometimes much later) confirmed by
a monarch or his agents. It was rare (and only in high profile disputes
like the aforementioned Scrope v. Grosvenor case) that monarch directly
concerned themselves with the administration of heraldry. In any case,
confirmation of arms by the king was more a symbolic gesture than
anything else (in most cases).
> Second, probably as a
>response to the sort of situation above, though arms of assumption were
>perfectly legal, they were considered to have a lesser legal status than
>granted, inherited or ecclesiastical arms ("Should'a told someone. Earl
>So-and-so had them _granted_. Too late to complain now. Sorry.")
Again, this example assumes that there was one system that
worked the same in every time and every nation. That isn't so. It also
assumes that arms had to be registered with some body. For most times and
places in the medieval and renaissance Europe that wasn't so either.
>A. Wolgemuth (Let's see, you've been carrying "Gules, three lioncels in
>pale passant guardant or" around for a week and would like to register it
>as arms of assumption.....)
You meant this as sarcasm, but it's a good example of how
medieval heralds might have approached the problem.
In the 12th and 13th c. heralds would have merely recorded the
existence of such arms. They didn't have the status to criticize and
would probably would have noted the similarity between the arms of
England and the new design among themselves.
In the 14th c. or later a herald might have advised a new lord
that the arms he was assuming were identical in design to the arms of
England, but, unless the herald and the lord were *English* neither would
have seen that as a bar to usage of those arms.
In some cases arms of minor nobles would actually incorporate
quarterings of royal arms as a way of expressing solidarity with the royal
family. For example, in Spanish and Portuguese arms charges from the royal
arms or even quarters of royal arms might be incorporated into a design of
someone who wasn't a member of the royal family. (For example, the arms of
Columbus incorporated quarters of Castille and Leon.)
Lothar
badger bagbane
Andrea Luxenburg <E...@mail.albany.net> wrote:
:
:)Maybe we could discuss at what remove elven/supernatural ancestry or connections are period. I
:)am thinking, for instance, of an ancestor of Richard the Lionheart who was said to become a
:)serpent from the waist down every Sunday, or Elidor, whom Geraldus Cambrensis reported to have
:)visited the Little People regularly until he stole a golden ball from them. There is even
:)supposed to be an account of two green-skinned children (I don't remember if their ears were
:)pointy) who showed up somewhere in England one fine day, claiming (later, after they learned the
:)language) to have come from some land where it was always twilight. The girl is even said to
:)eventually have had offspring, from whom certain families in the area descend. (I'm thinking
:)it was William of Malmesbury's chronicle, but I could be totally wrong about that.) Even
:)Charlemagne's mother, Bertha Goosefoot, could be interpreted, many years later, as so-named not
:)for big feet, but because she was a fay, many of whom were said to have certain animal-like
:)appendages. And that's not even considering the many family trees which begin with a divine or
:)heroic ancestor. So I'm not sure we can totally rule out elven ancestors, if the person has done
:)the research to make them period elven ancestors.
:)Gwen Goosefoot, all of whose ancestors were depressingly human
I'M COMING TO JOIN YOU ELIZABETH, I'LL BE THE ONE WHO SAW A PERSON
TRYING TO DOCUMENT ELVES ! ( badger clutching his heart and
staggering around the room.)
did it ever occure to you that there might be some dishonest people
out there? y'all must be from the big city and never had a small
traveling circus pass thru. i find it really hard for humans to be on
this earth for a couple thousand years and only produce one P.T.
Barnum! we are dealing with a period in time when people didn't travel
longer than a day from where they were born. look at old maps, you are
going to tell me that before magellion sailed around the globe the
world was flat? you could find a lot of documentation to support the
flat earth theory in period texts. maybe i came from atlantis? there
is a lot of period stuff on that. explain to me why we could have
demons and devils and such roaming the country side a few hundred
years ago but nothing remains today? i have first hand sources about
demons and devils, and could prove that i am half demon without
breaking a sweat in the library. face it elves ARE FANTASY and don't
belong in the society, except during festavels and parties where it
was period for people to dress up and PRETEND they are fairy folk.
if you cough up the bones of a seabishop then i'll let you be an elf!
badger bagbane
Badger Bagbane
nobody has ever gone broke underestemating the intellagence of the average american!
just julia
Gunnora Hallakarva (gun...@bga.com) wrote:
: Another note, elves in Norse cosmology are technically in the
: class of "dead things"... many people believed that their
: deceased ancestors in their grave mounds became elves, the
: "next step on the cosmic wheel" sort of idea. The Fairie
: Mound is actually a grave mound, transformed by imagination
: and folklore. A barrow wight, a la Tolkein, has more in common
: with the original conception of elves than do the etherial
: creations of Shakespeare.
I would amend that. In some countries, fairy mounds are present and
in many cases they were old barrows. However, that detail of folklore
is not present in all of Europe. Fairy rings, for instance, are at least
as common as mounds. Basically, fairies are a fairly old concept
in Europe, they vary lots between various countries, they usually aren't
a bit like Tinkerbell, and they never really existed.
julia
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
badger bagbane
they might be able to claim elven ancestory but their ears would STILL
be normal.
rosalyn rice
In article <52fd85$o...@manuel.anu.edu.au>, <gbr...@rsc.anu.edu.au> wrote:
>In article <529qaq$9...@news3.realtime.net>,
>>(No, "Savage Sword of Conan" is *not* a "primary source".<G>)
>
>"Chessmen of Mars" then ?
>
"Dragonriders of Pern" is definitely a "primary source". Otherwise
how can you justify those little stuffed fire-lizards that you see riding
on people's shoulders at evnts?
Lothar
Gregory Killam
Edwin Hewitt (brog...@pe.net) wrote:
: If an elf or any other unworldly creature found itself at a major period
: event, the event would probably then include a burning of said creature.
Or if you want to be traditional and help them with their lore, might I
suggest throwing salt, iron filings, or rowan berries? I believe that is
supposed to make them go away.
aguaman
Elves? If you all carried the letters "SH", and then slapped the letters
on the backs of any elves in sight, I think it would give you the right
to hang them... say, on a wall.
This seems like an easy way to transform those pesky elves into
something of period... :-)
-Ed
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Edward A. Waterman "The mighty poets write in blood and tears
agu...@ix.netcom.com And agony that, flame-like, bites and sears..."
-Musings by Robert E. Howard
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
badger bagbane
ror...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (rosalyn rice) wrote:
:)In article <52fd85$o...@manuel.anu.edu.au>, <gbr...@rsc.anu.edu.au> wrote:
:)>In article <529qaq$9...@news3.realtime.net>,
:)>>(No, "Savage Sword of Conan" is *not* a "primary source".<G>)
:)>
:)>"Chessmen of Mars" then ?
:)>
:) "Dragonriders of Pern" is definitely a "primary source".
what about john norman Gor series. :> :> :>
:) Otherwise how can you justify those little stuffed fire-lizards that you see riding
:)on people's shoulders at evnts?
or those BIG rabbit fur stuffed warriors that beat on the sca dogs
every war?
badger bagbane
:) Lothar
Bryan J. Maloney
In article <52c9po$i...@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>,
ror...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (rosalyn rice) wrote:
> is completely screwed up, this isn't quite correct. First of all, you
> over simplify what social classes could use arms (and when they started
Yes, I did--but a short version of an accurate portrayal would be "it
depends on a lot of stuff"...
> using them). Secondly, you make it sound as if you had to buy the right
> to use arms, which was not usually te case.
My error in wording. I meant to say that anybody who had a bit of
prestige and/or property.
Dorian Davis
>Eric A. Rhude wrote
> In the mid 14th century there was a group of about 22 japanese
> warriors that made it to a court in Italy, I do not have the
> documentation at hand but if I pressured I can find it.
?Nani?
News is a little slow travelling down here to New Zealand, so if
someone has already posted the following, please pardon my
rehashing the facts.
The first mission to Europe came about in 1582 by arrangement of the
Jesuits with their Society. A mission of 4 well-born Japanese youths
was sent to the King of Spain and the Pope by the Christian daimyous
Ootomo, Arima, and Oomura. The four left Nagasaki for Macao where they
stayed for some months (studying during the monsoon). At the end of
the year they set sail for Malacca, and then on to Goa. They
eventually reached Lisbon 3 years later. They were well received
wherever they stopped on their way to Madrid, and were gracefully
welcomed by Phillip II. Soon after they left for Italy, where they
first went to Florence and then to Rome.
Against the wishes of the Jesuits, Pope Gregory XIII insisted upon a
brilliant ceremony. Wearing Japanese costime, the young men rode on
fine horses in a splendid procession to the Vatican. They were
received in the Sala Regia, where they kissed the Pope's foot, and
were embraced with affectionate greetings. Their stay in Rome was
somewhat prolonged by Gregory's death and the election of Sixtus. They
returned to Japan in the summer of 1590 (having been absent 8 years).
Matsuyama Yoshitoshi
Southron Gaard, Caid
To keep silent and act wise/ Still not as good
as drinking sake/ Getting drunk and weeping.
Otomo no Tabito (665 - 731)
Edwin Hewitt
Adieu, sweet Angus, Maeve and Fand,
Ye plumed yet skinny Shee,
That poets played with hand in hand
to learn to learn their ecstacy....
(from "The Passing of the Shee,
by John Millington Synge, Eire, 1871-1909)
Once dragons, elves and unicorns were easier to believe in
than the rhinocerous or the round earth circling the sun.
Elves were once part of the culture of the middle ages,
as they were once part of the culture of our current
middle ages. I morn their passing.
Edwin Hewitt
Dorian Davis wrote:
>
> >Eric A. Rhude wrote
> > In the mid 14th century there was a group of about 22 japanese
> > warriors that made it to a court in Italy, I do not have the
> > documentation at hand but if I pressured I can find it.
>
> Southron Gaard, Caid
>
Matsuyama Yoshitoshi,
I once attended a war in Burro Creek with a young Japanese-American lady
of my acquaintence. As we toured merchants row, she stopped in her
tracks and stared as a 6'+ blond samurai schlept by eating rice out of
wooden bowl with hashi. I assumed that the hight and complection caught
her attention, but I was wrong.
She said, I never realized, until now, that there was a Way to be
Japanese - and that's not it. She then gave me a short lecture on how
to walk in a Japanese style (something about wooden shoes in a
waterlogged climate adding to the Samurai Strut) and how a Japanese
would never eat out of a bowl while walking.
So, I asked, what would a Japanese have eaten on campaigne? She
mentioned several items, only one of which I still remember: Plumb
balls. Apparently rice and other edibles were stuffed into hollowed
plumbs and stored in a folded packet.
Any idea how these or other foods for Japanese armies on the move may
have been made?
Edwin of Runedun, Gallavally, Caid
brog...@pe.net
dmi...@alaska.net
ror...@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (rosalyn rice) wrote:
>In article <52fd85$o...@manuel.anu.edu.au>, <gbr...@rsc.anu.edu.au> wrote:
>>In article <529qaq$9...@news3.realtime.net>,
>>>(No, "Savage Sword of Conan" is *not* a "primary source".<G>)
>>
>>"Chessmen of Mars" then ?
>>
> "Dragonriders of Pern" is definitely a "primary source". Otherwise
>how can you justify those little stuffed fire-lizards that you see riding
>on people's shoulders at evnts?
> Lothar
Little stuffed fire-lizards? Hey, at least when I have the Oerthan
Tourney Dragon, Lursa, on my shoulder you see over 4 feet of real,
live iguana!
Flanna