Russian naming
Mary Spila
This is not for SCA, but another project I am working on. The father's name is
Joseph, and the child is a girl. I believe that surnames also change with sex,
but currently this is less of a problem. However, I will not turn away any
info on that as well.
Thanks - Marian, Clann Kyle, Seneschale, Shire of Ezaret, Kingdom of Meridies
Robert Trubenbach
>I am trying to find out how the Russian Patronymic (SP) name structure is done.
>This is not for SCA, but another project I am working on. The father's name is
>Joseph, and the child is a girl. I believe that surnames also change with sex,
>but currently this is less of a problem. However, I will not turn away any
>info on that as well.
end of the father's name (eg. Ivan patronymic= Ivanovich), when the child is a
female you add `ova', `nova', `ovna' or `novna' depending on the father's name
(eg. Ivan patronymic= Ivanovna or Ivanova). The femine patronymic is much more
complicated and I'm not 100% sure what the rules are on what ending to use.
The closest you could come with the name Joseph is Josephnova or Josephnovna,
go with whichever sounds better to you (standard rule of thumb for Russian
parents). Joseph isn't really Russian so you have to do your best.
Bryan Williamson.
Robert Trubenbach
Pyotr Filipivich
"Joseph" isn't, but the ocasional "Yosef" shows up.
Ivana Josefnova whould be her "name & patronymic".
Feminine gramatical endings would be tacted on the end of the surname,
changing Smith to "Smithva".
Icelandic still has the "john son of John" but "jill daughter of jill"
construction, but then there are only a quarter million people in the
whole country.
tschus
pyotr
| Bryan Williamson.
--
py...@halcyon.com Pyotr Filipivich, amongst others.
When I was a boy, we had Outcome Based Education, too.
We called it "Being held back a year"
MHoll
Actually, Joseph in Russian is Iosif (ee-OH-seef) and the patronymic is
Isosifovich (ee-OH-seef-ohv-eech) for a man and Iosifovna
(ee-OH-seef-ohv-nah) for a woman. That's both in modern Russian and one of
the late-period forms, but the less-used and more problematic. If you want
more on the subject, let me know by e-mail or post.
Predslava Vydrina
Bjornsborg, Ansteorra
Susan Carroll-Clark
I have already responded to the original post privately. But for
the edification of all others on the bridge, here's my meagre knowledge.
My source is Tatiana Nikolaevna's work on Russian names done for the SCA--
not a perfect source, but OK for the basics.
The patronymic is the name after the given name, and is normally formed
from the father's name by adding -ovich or -evich for males, and -ovna or
-evna for females. The surname has to agree in gender with the rest
of the name, with the result that most surnames also add "a" onto the
feminine form (ie: Kozlov=>Kozlova)
>Joseph isn't really Russian so you have to do your best.
Uhh..how about Josef Stalin? (Yes, I KNOW he's OOP and Georgian anyway,
but...) Joseph is a saint's name, and as such is likely to have a
Russian equivalent (the work I mention lists it as Iosif, yielding
Iosifovich and Iosifovna as patronymics). There are an awful lot
of names we commonly think as classically Russian which are really
simply Russian versions of Biblical or Greek names. This was a real
interesting proposition when I was doing research on Russia just after
Vladimir's conversion, before the saints' names became popular.
Anyway, my two rubles' worth...
Nicolaa de Bracton
(well, more properly Nika Sergeyvna in this case)
scl...@epas.utoronto.ca
Brian M. Scott
> I have already responded to the original post privately. But for
>the edification of all others on the bridge, here's my meagre knowledge.
>My source is Tatiana Nikolaevna's work on Russian names done for the SCA--
>not a perfect source, but OK for the basics.
<remainder snipped>
The problem with Tatiana's book is that it deals only with the modern style
of Russian name: <given name> <patronymic> <surname>. This style was not
used until quite late in our period and wasn't the norm until well after our
period. Among the other documentable forms are G-G, G-P, G-P-P, G-G-P, G-S,
G-G-S, G-G-P-P, and G-P-P-P, where G, P, and S stand respectively for
<given name>, <patronymic>, and <surname>. If Ivan Guba, who has two given
names, has a son Vasilii, the son might be known as Vasilii Ivanov, Vasilii
Gubin, Vasilii Ivanov syn, Vasilii Gubin syn, Vasilii Ivanov syn Gubin(a),
Vasilii Ivanovich, Vasilii Ivanovich Gubina, or any of a number of other
combinations of the basic elements. A much better source for the basics is
_Yclept, - A Book of Names_, by Paul Wickenden of Thanet, published by Folump
Enterprises (805 East Green, Urbana, IL 61801); for dated citations of
period Russian names the best source is Paul's _Dictionary of Period Russian
Names_, published by Free Trumpet Press West.
Talan Gwynek
Susan Carroll-Clark
>The problem with Tatiana's book is that it deals only with the modern style
Yep, that's the problem I referred to. The original poster
unfortunately did not specify a period. The further back you go, the more
variations you get, until you get to the just-past-conversion period of
the eleventh century where it was still usual to give children traditional
Slavic names and then to baptise them with a saint's name (which may or
may not have been actually used) and where surnames were really not yet
surnames, but much more akin to Norse nicknames. (A lot of folks seem
to assume that everyone in that period in Russian history was named
Andrei or Yevgeny or Sergei like today. Isn't true. Everyone was named
Vladimir :-)
Cheers!
Nicolaa de Bracton
scl...@epas.utoronto.ca
MHoll
Ld Paul Wickenden of Thanet's book is definitely the source to look at.
Meanwhile, yes, in period and after period and even today, patronymics
were/are used with different endings for men and women. In addition, until
about late XIII century, the form of patronymics was different than what
it is now.
Patronymics are a form of the father's name which means literally "son of
XX" or "daughter of XX". Surnames (family names) did not appear in Russia
until late period, and then only for the upper classes. Quite often, these
surnames are based on a patronymic (from either a Christian or a
non-Christian name) of the early form (ie "Petrov" instead of the late
period/modern "Petrovich").
I am quite willing to answer Russian naming questions by e-mail or post.
Predslava Vydrina
Bjornsborg, Ansteorra
Brian M. Scott
quotes Mary Spila, who asks how to form a feminine Russian patronymic from
the given name `Joseph'. He answers:
<snip>
>The closest you could come with the name Joseph is Josephnova or Josephnovna,
>go with whichever sounds better to you (standard rule of thumb for Russian
>parents). Joseph isn't really Russian so you have to do your best.
This isn't quite right. One Russian version of `Joseph' is `Iosif', which
forms the feminine patronymic `Iosifovna'. If you don't want to tamper with
the spelling of the father's name, `Josephovna' probably isn't too
unreasonable.
Talan Gwynek
Brian M. Scott
<snip>
> Patronymics were formed in many different ways than the more familiar
>'ovich' and 'ovna' endings. 'in' and 'ov' are also common. Many of these name
>s became formal surnames when the idea of such was adopted.My Russian persona
> is Mikhail Vyechoslavovich Godunov'. Mikail, son of Vyechoslav, descendent of
> Godun. Names like Godunov (literally 'of Godun') that survive today
>usually are derived from patronymics that were used way back by somebody who
>was the son of Godun. Some people have tried to tell me that -in refers to the
>grandparent, but I've found in books that its an alternative ending for
>daughters (though the ending was used for males whose names ended in
>certain letters).
Actually, the surname `Godunov' isn't of patronymic origin; it's derived from
a nickname meaning `idler' (B.O. Unbegaun, _Russian Surnames_, Oxford Univ.
Press, 1972, p.155). Men's names ending in `a' or `ia' produce surnames in
`-in' or `-yn'; others use `-ov' or `ev'. There's relatively little evidence
for mediaeval use of patronymics by women, since they lacked legal status.
The extant examples show pretty much the same forms as for men, but with
feminine endings (e.g., `Godunova' instead of `Godunov'); in particular, I
know of no evidence that `-in' is associated with daughters, and I'd be
interested to know where the information came from.
Talan Gwynek
arch...@gate.net
(A lot of folks seem
>to assume that everyone in that period in Russian history was named
>Andrei or Yevgeny or Sergei like today. Isn't true. Everyone was named
>Vladimir :-)
No. It was *really* Volodomyr. Ask any Ukrainian ;-)
Blessings,
+ Ot'etz Ioasaph Kievsy rka Father Joseph mka John Missing +
(BTW actually tonsured stavrophore monk in a Ukrainian Orthodox
Church)
(arch...@gate.net)
MHoll
>Actually, the surname `Godunov' isn't of patronymic origin; it's derived
from
a nickname meaning `idler' (B.O. Unbegaun, _Russian Surnames_, Oxford
Univ.
Press, 1972, p.155).
The origin being a nickname does not mean the surname is not derived from
a patronymic, since a "nickname" can also form a patronymic. I won't argue
this specific case as I do not have Unbegaun's book at hand.
>(snip-snip)> There's relatively little evidence
for mediaeval use of patronymics by women, since they lacked legal status.
Women did not lack legal status. It's way too large a generalization.
While their legal rights were limited in the XVI_XVII centuries, they
could own land of their own right, and other property as well. In earlier
times, their rights were more extensive.
There are numerous examples of women referred to by a patronymic. In fact,
that's a usage more widespread than that of the first name. Married women
were also referred to by a form derived from a husband's first name
meaning "wife of..."
I do have documentation, just not right at hand. e-mail or post for more.
Predslava Vydrina
Bjornsborg, Ansteorra