"Lyst" field?
Cynthia Virtue
provenance or is an SCA olde-timey-ism. Anyone know the history?
cv
--
Cynthia du Pré Argent (Hartshorn-dale, East)
"Such virtue hath my pen...." -Shakespeare, Sonnet LXXXI
"I knew this wasn't _my_ pen!" --Cynthia V.
Heather Rose Jones
>
> I'm curious if using a Y instead of an I in 'list field' has a medieval
> provenance or is an SCA olde-timey-ism. Anyone know the history?
Whether or not there are any historic examples of this spelling, one
suspects that its use in the SCA is an olde-timey-ism. (You know:
change all "i"s to "y"s, tack "e" randomly onto the end of half the
nouns and adjectives, and make all the verbs end in either "-eth" or
"-est' regardless of subject.)
Tangwystyl
--
*********
Heather Rose Jones
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
*********
Susan Carroll-Clark
> I'm curious if using a Y instead of an I in 'list field' has a medieval
> provenance or is an SCA olde-timey-ism. Anyone know the history?
I was interested to see that "lyst" seems to be the standard spelling in
some kingdoms, but not in others. Here in the Middle, and in Ealdormere
where I previously lived, it has always been "list" (at least afaik)
Nicolaa
Cumhail
looks, so I use it. Beats "ye olde fyghting place". :)
your servant,
Cumhail
Brian M. Scott
<cvi...@thibault.org> wrote:
>I'm curious if using a Y instead of an I in 'list field' has a medieval
>provenance or is an SCA olde-timey-ism. Anyone know the history?
The spelling has medieval provenance but is probably an SCA-ism.
However, according to OED1 the original meaning was 'border, hem'.
By an obvious extension the term came to mean 'boundary, limit'. In
these senses <lyst> and the plural <lystys> are found. To enter the
lists was then to enter within the boundaries, and the term then came
to be applied to the field itself. The earliest instance of this
usage in OED1 is very late, however: it's from Shakespeare.
Talan
db
db
james rich
"db" <dead...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3AC8CCDA...@hotmail.com...
> In the West, it is spelled "Eric" :-)
> db
I've heard this before. What I don't know is "howcome?"
AElfwenna
"Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make them
all yourself."
Benoit Fiset
Cynthia Virtue a écrit :
Here we use the french word ..Lice. Many french speaking person mixup List
(english) liste (french) a liste of some element.
Que le Seigneur tout puissant vous veuille prester vie longue en toute et
sincere félicité.
Seigneur Godfroy Garmallon
Baro Portum
Protégé de Sa Grace Marieke van Der Dal
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Born of the Sword
Ruled by a Crown
Surrounded by the 21st Century
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Benoit Fiset Technicien en Géomatique
bfi...@clic.net GIS technicien
a.k.a: Seigneur Godfroy Garmallon, GoA,OSC,OBT
In the Society for Creative Anachronisim
http://www.sca.org/
Baronnie du Havre des Glaces
http://www.havredesglaces.eastkingdom.org/
Ville de Québec, Canada
City of Quebec, Canada
Brian L. Rygg/Brendan Pilgrim
> > In the West, it is spelled "Eric" :-)
and AElfwenna responded:
> I've heard this before. What I don't know is "howcome?"
Mind you, this was probably back in A.S. single digits -- in any event,
before my time -- and I don't have the *Known World Handbook* in front of
me, but once upon a time, an SCA tournament field was marked off with red
streamers or some-such. Naturally, it was dubbed "Eric the Red." In time,
the byname fell off.
The term -- usually lowercase -- is used also in Artemisia and, I believe,
mother Atenveldt. We use "lists" as well. (The singular "list" is
frequently used also, but I was taught that in a tournament, a fighter
enters the list*s*. Perhaps that comes originally from the list=boundary
meaning.)
The division (hereabouts/nowabouts, anyway) seems to be that the _eric_ is
the physical field -- the marked off ground or indoor arena where the
fighting actually takes place -- and the _lists_ is the field of contenders.
"The lists will open at X o'clock and close at Y o'clock" means the fighters
have to officially sign in between those times, with the tournament itself
usually starting either immediately afterward or after a court in which
competitors and their consorts are presented.
Your honours in dutie.
Brendan Pilgrim
Heather Rose Jones
>
> "db" <dead...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3AC8CCDA...@hotmail.com...
> > In the West, it is spelled "Eric" :-)
> > db
>
> I've heard this before. What I don't know is "howcome?"
<sigh> First off, please note that _some_ people in the West are trying
to replace "eric" with "lists". Unfortunately there's a strong streak
among some Westerners of valuing SCA tradition greatly over actual
medieval practice. <sigh>
Once upon a time, there were several colorfully-flagged ropes used to
mark off the lists field in the West. They all had names. The red one
was named "Eric". The rest is ... um ... history.
Chris and Elisabeth Zakes
caused "james rich" <71...@cableone.net> to write:
>"db" <dead...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:3AC8CCDA...@hotmail.com...
>> In the West, it is spelled "Eric" :-)
>> db
>
>I've heard this before. What I don't know is "howcome?"
>AElfwenna
The story I've heard is that the original set of list-ropes were red,
and acquired the nickname "Eric the Red" (later there were the "yellow
peril" and the "white Russian", too). Over time it evolved (or
degenerated, take your pick) into "eric" and the term is still used
for the fighting field today, even though the original ropes have
probably been dust for many years.
I don't think anybody outside the West (and possibly An Tir and Caid)
uses the term. It's a pure SCA-ism.
-Tivar Moondragon
Ansteorra
Henry Vanderbilt
Interesting - here in Atenveldt, the cloth strips stretched between
steel rods driven into the ground that we mark our house camp boundary
with at wars is called "the eric wall" - it never occurred to me to
wonder where the term came from, or that it might not be at all period.
Harry Rudkin, House Staghold, Atenveldt
Brendan Lloyd
> The term [eric] -- usually lowercase -- is used also in Artemisia and,
> I believe, mother Atenveldt. We use "lists" as well.
Same with Lochac (a Principality of the West, but on a separate
continent!). And there are also some folks here (self included) who share
the healthy disdain for "eric" that Tangwystyl described.
Boo to Eric. Huzzah to Lists. Nuff said.
Brendan
Jan de Ghent
--
Remove the ? to reply by email
Heather Rose Jones
> Interesting - here in Atenveldt, the cloth strips stretched between
> steel rods driven into the ground that we mark our house camp boundary
> with at wars is called "the eric wall" - it never occurred to me to
> wonder where the term came from, or that it might not be at all period.
>
> Harry Rudkin, House Staghold, Atenveldt
Which answers the question of "why is this SCA-invented usage
perpetuated?" In general, most people have a rather naive
presupposition that things done in the SCA are historically authentic
unless specifically labeled otherwise. If you go around continually
reminding people that such-and-such a term or practice is a non-historic
SCA-ism, you get labelled a pedant and spoilsport, but if you don't,
then every new person who hears the term or participates in the practice
cheerfully assumes it _is_ historic and doesn't bother to ask further.
Henry Vanderbilt
>
> Henry Vanderbilt wrote:
>
> > Interesting - here in Atenveldt, the cloth strips stretched between
> > steel rods driven into the ground that we mark our house camp boundary
> > with at wars is called "the eric wall" - it never occurred to me to
> > wonder where the term came from, or that it might not be at all period.
> >
> > Harry Rudkin, House Staghold, Atenveldt
>
> Which answers the question of "why is this SCA-invented usage
> perpetuated?"
Well, in this case it's perpetuated because it's a concise clear
name for a significant element of many SCA war camps that
doesn't have an obvious mundane equivalent. (Hmm - does it
have a period equivalent? Are camp "eric walls" strictly a
modern SCA-ism physically as well as linguistically? Enquiring
Minds Want To Know.)
> In general, most people have a rather naive
> presupposition that things done in the SCA are historically authentic
> unless specifically labeled otherwise.
Or in this case, I simply never thought about "eric wall"'s historicity
at all until it came up here. No presumption either way, honest! ;)
- Harry
Chris and Elisabeth Zakes
<chuckle> Yet another bit of Interkingdom Anthropology. I'd never even
*heard of* such walls around a campsite, until I went to Pennsic.
-Tivar Moondragon
Ansteorra
Chris and Elisabeth Zakes
caused Henry Vanderbilt <hvand...@bix.com> to write:
>Heather Rose Jones wrote:
>>
>> Henry Vanderbilt wrote:
>>
>> > Interesting - here in Atenveldt, the cloth strips stretched between
>> > steel rods driven into the ground that we mark our house camp boundary
>> > with at wars is called "the eric wall" - it never occurred to me to
>> > wonder where the term came from, or that it might not be at all period.
>> >
>> > Harry Rudkin, House Staghold, Atenveldt
>>
>> Which answers the question of "why is this SCA-invented usage
>> perpetuated?"
>
>Well, in this case it's perpetuated because it's a concise clear
>name for a significant element of many SCA war camps that
>doesn't have an obvious mundane equivalent. (Hmm - does it
>have a period equivalent? Are camp "eric walls" strictly a
>modern SCA-ism physically as well as linguistically? Enquiring
>Minds Want To Know.)
I don't *think* they're historical. I've looked at a fair number of
period campsite pictures off-and-on over the years and don't ever
recall seeing such a "wall". (On the other hand, I wasn't specifically
looking for that detail, either.)
As I mentioned in another post, they're not even an SCA-wide
phenomenon. Here in Ansteorra they are never used, for example.
-Tivar Moondragon
Ansteorra
Zebee Johnstone
Chris and Elisabeth Zakes <moon...@bga.com> wrote:
>
>I don't *think* they're historical. I've looked at a fair number of
>period campsite pictures off-and-on over the years and don't ever
>recall seeing such a "wall". (On the other hand, I wasn't specifically
>looking for that detail, either.)
>
>As I mentioned in another post, they're not even an SCA-wide
>phenomenon. Here in Ansteorra they are never used, for example.
>
They ahve happened sometimes in Lochac, usually, I think, because
they've been heard about.
There are ropes around areas at Festival, but they are put there by
the organisers to delineate areas, rather than as a territory claim by
groups.
Sometimes groups will make a gate, mainly to get people to come in
that way rather than tripping over guyropes, and as an opportunity for
heraldic display.
Silfren
Glenda Robinson
If you're going to be pedantic about lists (which is perfectly correct IMO,
whichever way it's spelt...), you should also be pedantic about the use of
the word Huzzah, which is about as "non -period" as "the Eric".
As far as I've seen, The word Huzzah came into use in the 17th century in
Naval use only, and after that it spread to general use.
Glenda.
Brendan Lloyd
> > Boo to Eric. Huzzah to Lists. Nuff said.
Glenda Robinson <gle...@antispam.compassnet.com.au> wrote:
> If you're going to be pedantic about lists (which is perfectly correct IMO,
> whichever way it's spelt...), you should also be pedantic about the use of
> the word Huzzah, which is about as "non-period" as "the Eric".
Sure, why not. I only used it because it was a term that I figured would
be instantly recognised but if in aint pre-C17th, then toss it. Is it for
certain that it isn't pre-C17th? What are alternatives?
While we're on the topic, what about Oyez (used by SCA voice heralds to
call for attention)?
Brendan
Jan de Ghent
--
Zebee Johnstone
Brendan Lloyd <?bll...@uow.edu.au> wrote:
>While we're on the topic, what about Oyez (used by SCA voice heralds to
>call for attention)?
>
I think that pronounced "Oy Yay" it's a runtogether of "hear ye".
The runtogether goes back, I think, to the 18thC, not sure how much
earlier than that.
I havent heard anyone say "Oh Yez" but that would definitely be wrong.
Silfren
Cynthia Virtue
French, not surprisingly.
Arval d'Espas Nord
> > > Interesting - here in Atenveldt, the cloth strips stretched between
> > > steel rods driven into the ground that we mark our house camp boundary
> > > with at wars is called "the eric wall" - it never occurred to me to
> > > wonder where the term came from, or that it might not be at all period.
> > Which answers the question of "why is this SCA-invented usage
> > perpetuated?"
> Well, in this case it's perpetuated because it's a concise clear
> name for a significant element of many SCA war camps that
> doesn't have an obvious mundane equivalent.
No obvious mundane equivalent? It's called a "fence"; there's one around
every other house in my neighborhood.
I think Tanglws has no more than half the answer to why the term remains in
use. The Society has a strong custom of using specialized terms for
everyday objects, without much regard for whether those terms have any
actual medieval basis. For most people, it seems to be enough that the
word is _different_, so we have dragons and garb and feastocrats even
though "car" and "clothing" and "cook" are perfectly good medieval terms
for the same things. One can easily understand the desire for replacing
common mundane terms with specialized ones: It supports the sense of
removal from the mundane world that is an important part of our game. It's
harder to understand why so many people use "eric" rather than "list" when
neither is a common modern word and the latter is a proper medieval term.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mit...@panix.com
Arval d'Espas Nord
> While we're on the topic, what about Oyez (used by SCA voice heralds to
> call for attention)?
That's one we got right: It's Anglo-French for "Listen!", and it was used
in just the way we use it.
Henry Vanderbilt
>
> > > > Interesting - here in Atenveldt, the cloth strips stretched between
> > > > steel rods driven into the ground that we mark our house camp boundary
> > > > with at wars is called "the eric wall" - it never occurred to me to
> > > > wonder where the term came from, or that it might not be at all period.
>
> > > Which answers the question of "why is this SCA-invented usage
> > > perpetuated?"
>
> > Well, in this case it's perpetuated because it's a concise clear
> > name for a significant element of many SCA war camps that
> > doesn't have an obvious mundane equivalent.
>
> No obvious mundane equivalent? It's called a "fence"; there's one around
> every other house in my neighborhood.
Well, yes, "fence" ocurred to me after posting, and that indeed
describes
part of the function of our SCA war camp's "eric wall". But it's a
rather
specialized sort of fence: It's very much on the symbolic side as far as
the physical barrier aspect of a fence goes. It's temporary and
portable.
And it's a display of house colors. Put another way, our war camp has
an
"eric wall" and a "fence" too - the fence is the mundane flexible roll
fencing
that goes around the kids' castle area to give the adult on watch half a
chance of keeping track of the little wanderers.
For different things with markedly different characteristics and
functions,
different terms tend to evolve. If only to reduce confusion during camp
setup...
>
> I think Tanglws has no more than half the answer to why the term remains in
> use. The Society has a strong custom of using specialized terms for
> everyday objects, without much regard for whether those terms have any
> actual medieval basis. For most people, it seems to be enough that the
> word is _different_, so we have dragons and garb and feastocrats even
> though "car" and "clothing" and "cook" are perfectly good medieval terms
> for the same things. One can easily understand the desire for replacing
> common mundane terms with specialized ones: It supports the sense of
> removal from the mundane world that is an important part of our game. It's
> harder to understand why so many people use "eric" rather than "list" when
> neither is a common modern word and the latter is a proper medieval term.
>
> ===========================================================================
> Arval d'Espas Nord mit...@panix.com
Good point, although for "different" substitute "non-modern" and you'll
have
a slightly better explanation for why "car" and "clothing" and "cook"
are
eschewed despite being period. Getting away from obtrusive modernity
seems
to be the Society's widest common denominator - though of course we
contain
an, ahem, wide range of views as to what's obtrusive.
- Harry, Staghold, Atenveldt
Nils K Hammer
like, the noise that humans make; Hoo-Rah, Hoo-Ray, HooZah, Huh-Zah,
Huh-Zay, etc.? It's nice that a couple of people in pursuit of period
practice might yell "mont-joie" or some such, but I'm certain that
the landesknechts and similar folks were not so erudite on the battlefield.
And besides, it's better than "moo" which I also have heard during battles.
Nils
Bryn Smith
>> the use of the word Huzzah, which is about as "non-period" as "the
>> Eric".
>
>Sure, why not. I only used it because it was a term that I figured would
>be instantly recognised but if in aint pre-C17th, then toss it. Is it
>for certain that it isn't pre-C17th? What are alternatives?
-Bryn
David Tallan
With respect, I have a hard time seeing how striving for "non-modern"
is a better explanation for why "cook" is eschewed, despite being
period, in favour of "feastocrat". I will admit to not having checked
the OED, but "feastocrat" strikes me as a much more modern term than
"cook". My impression is that the term is less than 50 years old. If I
am correct, it can hardly be considered less modern than the
significantly older term "cook".
The situation is not quite as reversed for the "clothing/garb" pair,
but once again, I think Arval's "non-mundane" explanation is slightly
better at representing my experience than the suggested "non-modern"
explanation. I don't think that people reject the word "clothing"
because it represents something "modern" to them. I think people are
well aware that clothing has been worn for millenia. the problem with
"clothing" is that it represents their everyday ("mundane") life. Part
of the event experience is changing out of the everyday into the SCA.
This is most fundamentally done when chaging out of our everyday
attire into SCA attire. It's worth mentioning here that SCA attire is
the only absolute, society-wide requirement on SCA event participants.
It is that fundamental to the game. We want to capture this
fundamental distinction between mundane and SCA attire in our SCA
language. We have a word for mundane attire, "clothing". We need a
different one for SCA attire. "Costume" doesn't work, we're not in a
play (although some who get into persona are definitely playing
roles). We've settled on "garb".
I think that you are much closer to the mark with the "car/dragon"
pair. Despite the fact of the long and honourable history of the word
"car", predating the modern automobile by centuries, the fact remains
that, what with semantic shift, if you say the word "car" it will
immediately conjure the image of a modern automobile in 100 out of 100
English speakers. And doing so will yank them out of the medieval into
the modern. The problem is that "dragon" is equally non-medieval.
Nobody in the middle ages rode in or on dragons. Dragons have as
little to do with our game (except in the heraldic sense) as cars do.
One solution that some people use, should the need to refer to their
vehicle be paramount, is to use a medieval vehicle word like "cart" or
"wagon". This doesn't bring forth the image of something spewing forth
smoke like "dragon" does. But if the aim is to keep people from
thinking of the modern vehicle, it's is probably better to try and
avoid evoking that image. And if the aim is to keep away from the
"modern", they are certainly effective.
So why does the Society tend to lean toward "dragon" rather than
"cart" or "wagon"? I think it is because, as Arval has suggested, the
aim is not to be "non-modern" but to be "different" or "non-mundane".
And, whatever else it may be, the word "dragon" is certainly less
mundane than the words "cart" and "wagon".
Or so it seems to me. YMMV, of course.
David Tallan
who always preferred the term Cook to Feastocrat
and Gatekeeper to Troll
Chris CII
"David Tallan" <dta...@interlog.com> wrote in message
news:lesmctsr47q9p71ms...@4ax.com...
> I think that you are much closer to the mark with the "car/dragon"
> pair.
> So why does the Society tend to lean toward "dragon" rather than
> "cart" or "wagon"? I think it is because, as Arval has suggested, the
> aim is not to be "non-modern" but to be "different" or "non-mundane".
> And, whatever else it may be, the word "dragon" is certainly less
> mundane than the words "cart" and "wagon".
>
> Or so it seems to me. YMMV, of course.
>
> David Tallan
> who always preferred the term Cook to Feastocrat
> and Gatekeeper to Troll
And then again let's not forget the power of tradition, history and private
jokes, the us vs. them culture.
Dragon, Troll, come straight from Tolkien who was a prime source of
inspiration for the 'Ur-SCA'
Eric comes from the private joke about 'Eric the Red'
Feastocrat comes from the -crat series of which IIRC Autocrat was the first,
and this one quite historical.
Thus comes that some words crystallize in an unexpected meaning (or are
coined wholesale) as heralding group-identity.
Just my 2 farthing.
--
Salutations, Greetings,
Guiraud Belissen, Drachenwald,
Chris CII, Rennes, France
Heather Rose Jones
> And then again let's not forget the power of tradition, history and private
> jokes, the us vs. them culture.
>
> Dragon, Troll, come straight from Tolkien who was a prime source of
> inspiration for the 'Ur-SCA'
While I understand your general point, Tolkien hardly _invented_ dragons
and trolls. Furthermore, the SCA use of "troll" seems to derive
proximally from a word-play on "toll gate".
Magesteff
> Chris CII wrote:
>
> > And then again let's not forget the power of tradition, history and private
> > jokes, the us vs. them culture.
> >
> > Dragon, Troll, come straight from Tolkien who was a prime source of
> > inspiration for the 'Ur-SCA'
>
> While I understand your general point, Tolkien hardly _invented_ dragons
> and trolls. Furthermore, the SCA use of "troll" seems to derive
> proximally from a word-play on "toll gate".
Or the idea that a troll under a bridge collected fees from those who use it.
--
Magesteff
- "The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education."-Albert
Einstein
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Glenda Robinson
I've never shouted Huzzah in my entire life, except when the chant has
been started when dining at a formal dinner with our 18th and 19th century
reenactment compadres.
I don't think people whose only language is Mandarin Chinese, for example,
shout it either.
Language is something learned on the whole. However, maybe a call of "Dad
dad dad dad" may be more a inate sound. Apparently many babies start on that
word (even wonder why Dad is short for Father, even though it sounds nothing
like it? My personal conspiracy theory is that it's so the Mum can say "The
Baby's calling you, dear")
I agree with your point that Moo is Right Out :-)
Might be worthwhile if there's a searchable Shakespeare online (surely there
is), then we could see what he used.
Glenda.
If anyone starts an OOP Huzzah chant, my husband and his friends tend to
shout "Bizarre".
"Nils K Hammer" <nh...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
news:Qumq3J600Uj=QkJ...@andrew.cmu.edu...
Brendan Lloyd
> If anyone starts an OOP Huzzah chant, my husband and his friends tend to
> shout "Bizarre".
That's a beauty! <ROFL!>
Hmmm. I wonder if I can get away with slipping that in next time a chant
goes up <grin!> ...
Bren
Jan de Ghent
--
Remove the dashes from my address to reply by email
Chris CII
"Heather Rose Jones" <hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:3ACBB6D2...@socrates.berkeley.edu...
> Chris CII wrote:
>
> > And then again let's not forget the power of tradition, history and
private
> > jokes, the us vs. them culture.
> >
> > Dragon, Troll, come straight from Tolkien who was a prime source of
> > inspiration for the 'Ur-SCA'
>
> While I understand your general point, Tolkien hardly _invented_ dragons
> and trolls. Furthermore, the SCA use of "troll" seems to derive
> proximally from a word-play on "toll gate".
Of course you are right and I mis-stated my point.
I just wanted to say that, quite differently from current SCA the first
years were quite strongly influenced by Tolkien, C.S. Lewis and the other
Inklings, which lent them a few rewordings. And while most of the fantasy
connection has been eradicated in the current SCA a few crystallised
traditions still carry their connotation.
As a by-note, I just fail to trace the origin of the troll under the bridge,
who waylays by-passers, and could be cause to the toll-gate being renamed
troll. I know it is not just a word-play because we have it too in
exclusively french-speaking FRP circles where it is still associated whith
the toll idea albeit no assonance is possible.
If someone could clear this up for me ?
David Debono
Take care
David D.
The Mediaeval Combat Society
The Historical Reenactment Web Site
http://www.montacute.net/histrenact/welcome.htm
Cynthia Virtue
> As a by-note, I just fail to trace the origin of the troll under the bridge,
> who waylays by-passers, and could be cause to the toll-gate being renamed
> troll.
Fairy/folk tale, of three goats who want to cross a bridge, and the
troll threatens to eat them.
Galen W. Bevel
The Three Billy Goats Gruff, by the Brother's Grimm in Grimm's Fairy tales,
IIRC
Galen Kirchenbauer, Ansteorra
Benoit Fiset
Brendan Lloyd a écrit :
While we're on the topic, what about Oyez (used by SCA voice heralds to
> call for attention)?
>
> Brendan
> Jan de Ghent
Oyez is a old french word from the verb Ouir (Listen) at the Imperative mode So
Oyez in modern french will be Ecoutez, Listen....
Since French Or mostly Normand were use in England court for long, many word
concerning the protocol came from french.
Que le Seigneur tout puissant vous veuille prester vie longue en toute et
sincere félicité.
Seigneur Godfroy Garmallon
Baro Portum
Protégé de Sa Grace Marieke van Der Dal
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Born of the Sword
Ruled by a Crown
Surrounded by the 21st Century
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Benoit Fiset Technicien en Géomatique
bfi...@clic.net GIS technicien
a.k.a: Seigneur Godfroy Garmallon, GoA,OSC,OBT
In the Society for Creative Anachronisim
http://www.sca.org/
Baronnie du Havre des Glaces
http://www.havredesglaces.eastkingdom.org/
Ville de Québec, Canada
City of Quebec, Canada
Bryn Smith
men in my course at University hailed from all over England, and they all
said "Oi!" instead of the more American "Yo!" After much discussion on
this newsgroup, most people agreed that that "Oi!" was decended from Oy-yeh
as used by heralds and town criers.
>
>Oyez is a old french word from the verb Ouir (Listen) at the Imperative
>mode So Oyez in modern french will be Ecoutez, Listen....
>Since French Or mostly Normand were use in England court for long, many
>word concerning the protocol came from french.
>
Henry Vanderbilt
And for what it's worth, I first saw the pun (of a "Stop, Pay Troll"
sign by a bridge) in a computer text adventure - Zork? Colossal Cave?
it all runs together now - written sometime back in the seventies.
Anyone know of an earlier instance? Did SCA usage precede this?
- Harry, House Staghold, Atenveldt
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
>> While we're on the topic, what about Oyez (used by SCA voice heralds to
>> call for attention)?
>That's one we got right: It's Anglo-French for "Listen!", and it was used
>in just the way we use it.
But we don't usually give it its Old French pronunciation, \oh-YETS\.
Talan
Hope Greenberg
Bryn Smith wrote:
>
> This question came up 5 years ago, when I was living in England. The young
> men in my course at University hailed from all over England, and they all
> said "Oi!" instead of the more American "Yo!" After much discussion on
> this newsgroup, most people agreed that that "Oi!" was decended from Oy-yeh
> as used by heralds and town criers.
But then how does it relate to the the yiddish "oy vey!" ? ;-)
- Alice
cf: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Shokel/920302_Oy_Vay.html
Heather Rose Jones
>
> Dad short for Daddy in the UK as mum short for mummy no?
Linguistically speaking, it's more the other way around: that "Daddy" is
an extended pet-form for "Dad" (and similarly for "Mummy"). The
previous poster has touched on a somewhat simplified version of the
current linguistic understanding: that there tend to be two "tracks" for
"mother" and "father" words -- the formal terms that are inherited down
the ages, reflect all the usual sound-changes, and take all the regular
grammatical forms; and "baby-talk" terms, that derive from the earliest
sounds that children (for physiological reasons) tend to make. For
example, it appears to be no accident that, worldwide, the "baby-talk"
words for mother tend to focus on bi-labial sounds -- the mouth
movements involved in sucking. "Baby-talk" words for father are a bit
more variable, but tend to focus around stops (voiced or voiceless) made
towards the front of the mouth, i.e., t, d, and sometimes p.
In some languages, the "baby-talk" words for parents have replaced the
ordinary lexical words (just to pick a familiar language -- as in
Welsh), in other languages "baby-talk" terms have become lexicalized for
other relationships (just to pick another familiar language -- in early
Irish the "mommy" word shifted to being the ordinary word for "foster
mother, nurse").
The world-wide similarity in words for "mother" has sometimes been cited
as evidence for a "proto-World" vocabulary item ... ignoring the simple
fact that all babies suck. (In the nicest possible way.)
David Debono
Thank you. I think I understood most of that but are you saying daddy
is a sort form of dad? *smile*
Take care
Anthony J. Bryant
> After much discussion on
> this newsgroup, most people agreed that that "Oi!" was decended from Oy-yeh
> as used by heralds and town criers.
The word is "oyez."
Please.
Effingham
Robert A. Uhl
Hope Greenberg <hope.gr...@uvm.edu> wrote:
>
>
> But then how does it relate to the the yiddish "oy vey!" ? ;-)
Joke understood. But I figured some might be interested. I believe
that `Oy vay!' is Yiddish for Hochdeutsch `Ach Wehe!', meaning `Oh
pain!'
--
Robert Uhl <ru...@4dv.net>
Marriage, n: The state or condition of a community consisting of a master,
a mistress, and two slaves, making, in all, two. --Ambrose Bierce
Robert A. Uhl
Chris and Elisabeth Zakes <moon...@bga.com> wrote:
[re: the `eric']
> I don't think anybody outside the West (and possibly An Tir and Caid)
> uses the term. It's a pure SCA-ism.
Here in the Outlands (or at least here in Caerthe) the term is
sometimes and lamentably used to denote the string of flags itself.
--
Robert Uhl <ru...@4dv.net>
That's how you know you're hooked on something; when it makes you forget
to drink beer. --Paul Mather, commenting on The Sims
Robert A. Uhl
Henry Vanderbilt <hvand...@bix.com> wrote:
>
> Well, in this case it's perpetuated because it's a concise clear
> name for a significant element of many SCA war camps that
> have a period equivalent? Are camp "eric walls" strictly a
> modern SCA-ism physically as well as linguistically? Enquiring
> Minds Want To Know.)
What about simply `fence'?
--
Robert Uhl <ru...@4dv.net>
Politicians and nappies should both be changed at regular intervals, and
for exactly the same reason.
Robert A. Uhl
Henry Vanderbilt <hvand...@bix.com> wrote:
> Arval d'Espas Nord wrote:
> >
> > I think Tanglws has no more than half the answer to why the term remains in
> > use. The Society has a strong custom of using specialized terms for
> > everyday objects, without much regard for whether those terms have any
> > actual medieval basis. For most people, it seems to be enough that the
> > word is _different_, so we have dragons and garb and feastocrats even
> > though "car" and "clothing" and "cook" are perfectly good medieval terms
> > for the same things. One can easily understand the desire for replacing
> > common mundane terms with specialized ones: It supports the sense of
> > removal from the mundane world that is an important part of our game. It's
> > harder to understand why so many people use "eric" rather than "list" when
> > neither is a common modern word and the latter is a proper medieval term.
>
> you'll have a slightly better explanation for why "car" and
> "clothing" and "cook" are eschewed despite being period. Getting
> away from obtrusive modernity seems to be the Society's widest
> common denominator - though of course we contain an, ahem, wide
> range of views as to what's obtrusive.
The want-to-sound-different argument I can accept--I've little problem
calling my mediaeval clothing garb. But what about our plethora of
not-at-all-period terms? Why dragon, when wagon, wain (very archaic,
that!), cart and others come to mind? Why troll, when porter
describes the function well? Why autocrat, when steward works quite
well indeed, and the use is odd enough to be different?
If I here one more camera called a soul-stealer I just know I'm going
to snap...
--
Robert Uhl <ru...@4dv.net>
There is no problem which cannot be solved by the judicious application
of firepower.
David Debono
wrote:
>On Tue, 03 Apr 2001 16:20:32 -0700,
>Henry Vanderbilt <hvand...@bix.com> wrote:
>>
>> Well, in this case it's perpetuated because it's a concise clear
>> name for a significant element of many SCA war camps that
>> doesn't have an obvious mundane equivalent. (Hmm - does it
>> have a period equivalent? Are camp "eric walls" strictly a
>> modern SCA-ism physically as well as linguistically? Enquiring
>> Minds Want To Know.)
>
>What about simply `fence'?
Over here we have a double roped off arena of whatever nature
(bunting, rope, nylon etc) that is called the "tramline". People "walk
the "tramline" to stop kids and the like getting inside the outer line
for obvious reasons. The term"double roped arena" is the one used for
insurance. I like the term "eric wall" :-)
Cynthia Virtue
> What about simply `fence'?
Seems reasonable to have a separate term for something so essential, the
function of which is different than the average "fence." Not to mention
that list ropes aren't much like a fence in physical appearance.
Steven H. Mesnick
> I havent heard anyone say "Oh Yez" but that would definitely be wrong.
"Oyez" is, I believe, Norman French for "hear ye" or "listen up
youse guys". I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that the
period pronunciation *was* in fact "oh-yezz". Any scholars
of old French out there?
<tangent>
FWIW, when the choirboys of Westminster greeted Queen Elizabeth II
upon her entrance to the Cathedral for her Coronation (they having
the privilege of being the first subjects to recognize the new
Sovereign) they sang "Vivat Regina Elizabetha!" and then shouted
"Vivat!" three times. But they *pronounced* it VYE-vat (to rhyme
with "My Hat" or "Pie Fat" or "Lie, Cat".
</tangent>
--
============ Baron Steffan ap Kennydd ================
Silverwing's Laws: http://pobox.com/~steffan/laws.html
Are you on the Rolls Ethereal? You should be!
http://www.waks.org/rolls
Jean le Bleu
> "Oyez" is, I believe, Norman French for "hear ye" or "listen up
> youse guys". I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that the
> period pronunciation *was* in fact "oh-yezz". Any scholars
> of old French out there?
The OED says it is currently "oh-yes", and was originally pronounced
"o'yets".
It's from Latin "audiatis", so the "ts" of o'yets comes from
shortening of the "iatis" to just "ets", I would guess.
Despite what the OED says, I've always heard it pronounced "oh-yea".
Jean
Brendan Lloyd
> > That's one we got right: [Oyez is] Anglo-French for "Listen!", and it was
> > used in just the way we use it.
Talan replied:
> But we don't usually give it its Old French pronunciation, \oh-YETS\.
So the Z in Oyez is pronunced just like a Z in modern German?
Robert A. Uhl
Cynthia Virtue <cvi...@thibault.org> wrote:
> "Robert A. Uhl" wrote:
> > What about simply `fence'?
>
> Seems reasonable to have a separate term for something so essential, the
> function of which is different than the average "fence." Not to mention
> that list ropes aren't much like a fence in physical appearance.
I think the post I was replying to was referring to a line hung around
an encampment. I may be incorrect.
--
Robert Uhl <ru...@4dv.net>
_Money_ is gold. Fiats are green. --Bryan J. Maloney
Ian
to snap...
--
Robert Uhl <ru...@4dv.net>
There is no problem which cannot be solved by the judicious application
of firepower.
I've heard cameras called a "Flemish Painter"
Dorothy J Heydt
Ian <crow33...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>If I here one more camera called a soul-stealer I just know I'm going
>to snap...
>
Or a miniaturist.
I once wrote a poem in which I had to refer, without using OOP
language, of my husband taking a photograph of something. I
spoke of his servent Argus Olympus, a little fellow and a
talented miniaturist, able to sneak up and secure likenesses of
people without their even realizing. (This, because Hal has been
wandering about with his Olympus 35mm camera in his hand for so
long that people do not notice it any more. He is thus able to
get quite a few candid shots. One or two of them will never be
seen by anyone but him and me.)
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Henry Vanderbilt
>
> On Thu, 05 Apr 2001 21:43:39 -0500,
> Cynthia Virtue <cvi...@thibault.org> wrote:
> > "Robert A. Uhl" wrote:
> > > What about simply `fence'?
> >
> > Seems reasonable to have a separate term for something so essential, the
> > function of which is different than the average "fence." Not to mention
> > that list ropes aren't much like a fence in physical appearance.
>
> I think the post I was replying to was referring to a line hung around
> an encampment. I may be incorrect.
Nope - the ref was to strips of cloth, perhaps 8' by 1', in house
colors, with ties on the corners, tied between ~3' steel rods,
around an encampment. Our "eric wall", just to complete the
circularity of this discussion... <grin>
- Harry
Richard
Are we talking about Rapiers' now?
--
it's just a joke.
--
Yours In Service.
Richard Falconer,
of The Barony of Stromgard,
of The Kingdom of AnTir...
currently working, residing and training,
in Shire of Adlersruhe,
in The Kingdom of Ansteorra
Gene Wirchenko
>David Debono wrote:
>>
>> Dad short for Daddy in the UK as mum short for mummy no?
>
>Linguistically speaking, it's more the other way around: that "Daddy" is
>an extended pet-form for "Dad" (and similarly for "Mummy"). The
>previous poster has touched on a somewhat simplified version of the
>current linguistic understanding: that there tend to be two "tracks" for
>"mother" and "father" words -- the formal terms that are inherited down
>the ages, reflect all the usual sound-changes, and take all the regular
>grammatical forms; and "baby-talk" terms, that derive from the earliest
>sounds that children (for physiological reasons) tend to make. For
>example, it appears to be no accident that, worldwide, the "baby-talk"
>words for mother tend to focus on bi-labial sounds -- the mouth
>movements involved in sucking. "Baby-talk" words for father are a bit
>more variable, but tend to focus around stops (voiced or voiceless) made
>towards the front of the mouth, i.e., t, d, and sometimes p.
"p" is a *bilabial* stop. So is "b".
"ba ba" is Cantonese for daddy. "ba" is father.
"ma ma" is Cantonese for mommy. "ma" is mother.
"baba" is Ukrainian for grandma.
[snip]
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.
Malachias Invictus
"Arval d'Espas Nord" <mit...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:9afbns$i29$1...@panix5.panix.com...
>
> > While we're on the topic, what about Oyez (used by SCA voice heralds to
> > call for attention)?
>
> in just the way we use it.
It is even used in some courtrooms, when the judge enters...
Malachias
Chris and Elisabeth Zakes
It may have. I know the SCA was using that particular play on words by
the late '70s. On the other paw, it's a pretty obvious joke and could
well have been developed independantly.
-Tivar Moondragon
Ansteorra
Pete Hardie
> The situation is not quite as reversed for the "clothing/garb" pair,
> but once again, I think Arval's "non-mundane" explanation is slightly
> better at representing my experience than the suggested "non-modern"
> explanation. I don't think that people reject the word "clothing"
> because it represents something "modern" to them.
I'll chime in here with my (oft-repeated) opinion.
When discussing SCA clothing, Pete says 'garb', but Reynard says 'tunic'
or 'trews' etc. Garb is the word used by my mundane self to refer to
the bits of my SCA clothing.
--
Better Living Through Circuitry
james rich
"Robert A. Uhl" <ru...@latakia.dyndns.org> wrote in message
news:slrn9cq2c...@latakia.dyndns.org...
> On Wed, 04 Apr 2001 09:17:50 -0700,
> Henry Vanderbilt <hvand...@bix.com> wrote:
>
>
> The want-to-sound-different argument I can accept--I've little problem
> calling my mediaeval clothing garb. But what about our plethora of
> not-at-all-period terms? Why dragon, when wagon, wain (very archaic,
> that!), cart and others come to mind?
to eschew such terms as "farspeaker", etc.
Why troll, when porter
> describes the function well?
conveys its meaning. Although it might not have been the period way to
refer to a toll-taker, the concept of "troll" was familiar, and I would
think a person of that time period might be able to "get the joke", and
perhaps even be amused by it.
Why autocrat, when steward works quite
> well indeed, and the use is odd enough to be different?
different officer than autocrat. The "steward" is our baronial officer in
charge of maintaining the inventory of the barony's physical property. It
is a regular office. The autocrat is the person in charge of a specific
event, and when the event is over and reports handed in they no longer hold
that office. Depending on when we have events scheduled, we may have more
than one autocrat at a time.
> If I here one more camera called a soul-stealer I just know I'm going
> to snap...
"garderobe".
AElfwenna
"Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make them
all yourself."
Marianne Perdomo Machin
> to snap...
Hmmmm... would't that be theft, then? Why not threaten them with calling the
guards?
Alternatively, start worrying about the orthodoxy of their religious beliefs:
"Hush... m'lady.... you'll only get into trouble with the Inquisitor for talking
like that."
All the best,
Marianne
To e-mail delete "see-signature" and write "castillo" instead.
erilar
wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Apr 2001 14:18:03 -0400,
> Hope Greenberg <hope.gr...@uvm.edu> wrote:
> >
> >
> > But then how does it relate to the the yiddish "oy vey!" ? ;-)
>
> Joke understood. But I figured some might be interested. I believe
> that `Oy vay!' is Yiddish for Hochdeutsch `Ach Wehe!', meaning `Oh
> pain!'
More accurately, I believe, from Mittelhochdeutsch
"Owe"--alas--pronounced oh vay
as in, for instance, Walther's "Owe, war sint verswunden..."
--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka erilar)
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo
Craig Levin
james rich <71...@cableone.net> wrote:
> I usually refer simply to my transport, if I must refer to it. I also tend
>to eschew such terms as "farspeaker", etc.
I like the opinion of the people who simply use "went" and "spoke
with". Hardly sounds unusual, and you can talk about the jalopy's
muffler some other time.
> Why troll, when porter
>> describes the function well?
>On the other hand, I find "troll" to be a fun play on words that easily
>conveys its meaning. Although it might not have been the period way to
>refer to a toll-taker, the concept of "troll" was familiar, and I would
>think a person of that time period might be able to "get the joke", and
>perhaps even be amused by it.
Maybe the first time. Even ostiaries have feelings. My guess is
that a Northman who had the job, _and_ who happened to be foul of
visage or mood might have gotten to be called a "halftroll", but
that's a documentable Norse byname, applicable more because of
what one was like than of what one did to earn one's keep.
>Why autocrat, when steward works quite
>> well indeed, and the use is odd enough to be different?
>For one thing, in our neck of the woods, "steward" is an *entirely*
>different officer than autocrat. The "steward" is our baronial officer in
>charge of maintaining the inventory of the barony's physical property. It
>is a regular office. The autocrat is the person in charge of a specific
>event, and when the event is over and reports handed in they no longer hold
>that office. Depending on when we have events scheduled, we may have more
>than one autocrat at a time.
Hm. Out here, for your "steward", we use "chamberlain", which, at
some times and places, implied that the person was in charge of
his employer's personal possessions. Interkingdom Anthropology, I
guess.
>> If I here one more camera called a soul-stealer I just know I'm going
>> to snap...
>The one that gets to me is "Port a Castle". I generally say "privy" or
>"garderobe".
Works by me. I've been known to use the nautical term, "head",
but I don't know when the word gained its meaning as such,
although as a term for the bow of a vessel, I've seen it in some
early stuff.
Pedro
--
http://pages.ripco.net/~clevin/index.html
cle...@rci.ripco.com
Craig Levin
Purple Kat
>>Works by me. I've been known to use the nautical term, "head",
>but I don't know when the word gained its meaning as such,
>although as a term for the bow of a vessel, I've seen it in some
>early stuff.
>
>Pedro
As for why it is called a "head" - the reason is simple.
Since wind on a sailing ship goes from back to front (stern to bow),
you would want the smellest things at the farthest point of the ship
(ie - the farthest downwind).
Since the farthest point was the figure-"head" of the ship, the
bathroom was called by association the "head".
What is funny is that even though ships nowadays use something other
than wind to move, the bathroom is still called the "head", no matter
where on the ship it is placed.
Hope this helps
Katheryne
Michelle Picou
>>"garderobe".
I try to stay away from "Port-a-Castle," although I have been known to say
"port-a-privy" at sites that have both permanent and temporary privies, as in
"Where is the nearest non-porta privy?" :-)
Lady Birgitta
Kingdom of Ansteorra
Per chevron argent and Or, on a chevron embattled counter-embattled vert five
roses argent.
To respond by e-mail, lift the Latch
thurman
have to do the research, but I'm pretty certain "head" is period. English ships
were rather firmly divided in the same way land society was. The common crew used
seats of ease cut into the beak of the ship, which projected beyond the bow
proper and help support the bowsprit. Also located there were the tubs used to
collect the urine to be used later for washing clothes. Crew stayed pretty much
"before the mast" unless their duties took them aft into the officer's area.
Officers used one of the quarter galleys built to overhang the hull just before
the stern of the ship. The other was the Captain's.
I personally like "troll" as a gate keeeper. To me it is perfectly in keeping
with in period humor. I can readily understand that 20th century sensibilities
could be offended tho. BTY, has anyone else seem "Just Visiting"? I saw it last
weekend and thought it was very good.
YIS
thorfinn
Bryn Smith
and Christian (arg, now I forgot his surname) reprising themselves from Les
Visiteurs was hilarious! There were lots of puns and references to the
first film, also. If you can, rent Les Visiteurs before you go see this
one, and you'll see all kinds of things. By the way, the count's name this
time was Malfete- which my rudimentary french translates as "Bad Party"- is
this right?
>sensibilities could be offended tho. BTY, has anyone else seem "Just
>Visiting"? I saw it last weekend and thought it was very good.
>
-Bryn
Michelle Picou
>Michelle Picou wrote:
>
>> >>The one that gets to me is "Port a Castle". I generally say "privy" or
>> >>"garderobe".
Just for the sake of clarification, I didn't write the above line - I quoted it
Craig Levin
Purple Kat <kring...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>As for why it is called a "head" - the reason is simple.
Why, I figured out fairly quickly. My mundane parents have owned
a sailboat for many years. :)
>What is funny is that even though ships nowadays use something other
>than wind to move, the bathroom is still called the "head", no matter
>where on the ship it is placed.
Mariners are, like most people, lovers of tradition. Look at the
graduation rituals in American colleges, even the state ones,
which still heark back to those of the Middle Ages (although I
doubt my MA robes would've passed muster as garb...).
David Friedman
thurman <Hil...@navair.navy.mil> wrote:
> I personally like "troll" as a gate keeeper. To me it is perfectly in keeping
> with in period humor.
Can you offer period examples of that sort of humor? It doesn't remind
me of anything in particular I have read in period literature.
--
David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html
thurman
thorfinn
David Tallan
wrote:
>
>"Robert A. Uhl" <ru...@latakia.dyndns.org> wrote in message
>news:slrn9cq2c...@latakia.dyndns.org...
>>Why autocrat, when steward works quite
>> well indeed, and the use is odd enough to be different?
>For one thing, in our neck of the woods, "steward" is an *entirely*
>different officer than autocrat. The "steward" is our baronial officer in
>charge of maintaining the inventory of the barony's physical property. It
>is a regular office. The autocrat is the person in charge of a specific
>event, and when the event is over and reports handed in they no longer hold
>that office. Depending on when we have events scheduled, we may have more
>than one autocrat at a time.
OK. How about "host"? "Lord John will be the host of the Midsummer
Feast" while "Lord William will be the host of our St. Agnes Day
Revels".
Works better than "autocrat" to me.
Respectfully,
David Tallan
Once hosted an event
ruadh
seems to me that the "Host" is the sponsor, [i.e. Barony] not the individual
responsible to oversee.
'Supreme Commander For a Day' could work.
Ru
"David Tallan" <dta...@interlog.com> wrote in message
news:t3p6dtg5q4b8o14o8...@4ax.com...
Craig Levin
ruadh <ru...@home.com> wrote:
>host ?
>seems to me that the "Host" is the sponsor, [i.e. Barony] not the individual
>responsible to oversee.
I think you've hit it there-in theory, the baron is the host, and
the organiser of the event is his subordinate. Given that butlers
receive guests, direct other servants, and perform other duties
we normally lump under the unlovely term of "autocrat", how about
butler?
Heather Rose Jones
>
> In article <3AD2F235...@navair.navy.mil>,
> thurman <Hil...@navair.navy.mil> wrote:
>
> > I personally like "troll" as a gate keeeper. To me it is perfectly in keeping
> > with in period humor.
>
> Can you offer period examples of that sort of humor? It doesn't remind
> me of anything in particular I have read in period literature.
I suppose that if you're analyzing it as "humorous meaning-change by
minor phonological change", there's a precedent in the "Non Angli sed
angeli" pun.
Tangwystyl
--
*********
Heather Rose Jones
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
*********
David Friedman
Heather Rose Jones <hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> David Friedman wrote:
> >
> > In article <3AD2F235...@navair.navy.mil>,
> > thurman <Hil...@navair.navy.mil> wrote:
> >
> > > I personally like "troll" as a gate keeeper. To me it is perfectly in
> > > keeping
> > > with in period humor.
> >
> > Can you offer period examples of that sort of humor? It doesn't remind
> > me of anything in particular I have read in period literature.
>
> I suppose that if you're analyzing it as "humorous meaning-change by
> minor phonological change", there's a precedent in the "Non Angli sed
> angeli" pun.
A little early for most of what we are doing, but yes. But that isn't a
case of routinely thereafter referring to all Angles as angels, as a
sort of running joke.
--
David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html
David Friedman
thurman <Hil...@navair.navy.mil> wrote:
> I will do my best, M'lord. Please define "that sort".
> thorfinn
>
> David Friedman wrote:
>
> > In article <3AD2F235...@navair.navy.mil>,
> > thurman <Hil...@navair.navy.mil> wrote:
> >
> > > I personally like "troll" as a gate keeeper. To me it is perfectly in
> > > keeping
> > > with in period humor.
> >
> > Can you offer period examples of that sort of humor? It doesn't remind
> > me of anything in particular I have read in period literature.
> > --
> > David/Cariadoc
> > http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html
Routinely calling some thing or person or whatever by a name that was a
play on the correct term, perhaps?
But since you suggested that it was "perfectly in keeping with in period
humor," perhaps you could give an example of in period humor that
strikes you as similar.
--
David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html
thurman
David Friedman wrote:
>
> Routinely calling some thing or person or whatever by a name that was a
> play on the correct term, perhaps?
>
> But since you suggested that it was "perfectly in keeping with in period
> humor," perhaps you could give an example of in period humor that
> strikes you as similar.
> --
> David/Cariadoc
> http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html
Very well Your Grace, I was simply waiting to see from what direction the
thrust was coming, I did not think to avoid it. I was going to scan back
through my reading material for pertinent examples, such as the Lobo of Caberet
(mentioned in The Perfect Heresy by Stephen O'Shea), or perhaps bringing up
Shakesper's naming of his characters (Mercutio, Mrs. Quickly, Sir Andrew
Ague-cheek), but I came to the realization that I cannot support my opinion at
all, since I have no first hand knowledge. You see, I am not an educated man. I
cannot read period literature at all. I cannot read or speak latin, greek or
french. I could not identify Occitan is you showed me a manuscript of it. The
nuances of Shakespear's poetry escape me without the opinions of others, and to
actually attempt to read Chaucer's hand would be for me, be a painful
experience. I am well aware of Your Grace's towering presence in the SCA, and
will not seek to challenge you. To do so would be the equivalent to meeting
Duke Caridoc in single combat for the crown. In short, Your Grace, I concede.
You win.
thorfinn
David Tallan
>host ?
>seems to me that the "Host" is the sponsor, [i.e. Barony] not the individual
>responsible to oversee.
>'Supreme Commander For a Day' could work.
>Ru
I may be wrong (I don't have an OED handy), but I suspect that in the
middle ages, the word was used (when not referring to part of the mass
:->) to refer to a personal rather than an organizational role. In
other words, I think that a medieval person is much more likely to say
"[Person] is hosting a feast or tournament" than "[Place] is hosting a
feast or tournament".
In any case, if host were made into a position title (like "Autocrat")
it would be pretty clear that it was referring to the person not the
group.
I'm not sure about the advantages of "Supreme Commander For a Day"
over "Autocrat". based on my moderate familiarity with medieval
literature, it strikes me as at least as modern as the current title.
Respectfully,
David Tallan
Once hosted an event
But, with Royalty present, was not Supreme Commander for a Day
David Friedman
thurman <Hil...@navair.navy.mil> wrote:
1. Given my present age, condition and lack of practice, I am probably
safer confining any single combats to cyberspace.
2. But in fact, I did not challenge you to a single combat. You made a
comment about period humor, I couldn't think of any examples that fit,
so I asked you if you had any in mind. Tangwystl suggested something
that was at least in the right ballpark. You took offense and went off
in a huff.
--
David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html
D. Peters
Bryn Smith <personalbest1spam.com> wrote:
>I saw it this past weekend, and thought it was quite amusing.
[snip]
>By the way, the count's name this
>time was Malfete- which my rudimentary french translates as "Bad Party"- is
>this right?
I suspect that it was actually "Mal Fait" -- "Badly Made (ugly, ungainly)"
IIRC, In T. H. White's _Once and Future King_, Lancelot (ugly, in this
retelling) takes the sobriquet "Le Chevalier Mal-Fait."
HTH--
D.Peters
--
"It's not getting any smarter out there. You have to come to terms with
stupidity and make it work for you."
--Frank Zappa
David Razler
Scott) wrote:
>On Sat, 31 Mar 2001 13:21:21 -0500, Cynthia Virtue
><cvi...@thibault.org> wrote:
>
>>I'm curious if using a Y instead of an I in 'list field' has a medieval
>>provenance or is an SCA olde-timey-ism. Anyone know the history?
>
>The spelling has medieval provenance but is probably an SCA-ism.
>However, according to OED1 the original meaning was 'border, hem'.
>By an obvious extension the term came to mean 'boundary, limit'. In
>these senses <lyst> and the plural <lystys> are found. To enter the
>lists was then to enter within the boundaries, and the term then came
>to be applied to the field itself. The earliest instance of this
>usage in OED1 is very late, however: it's from Shakespeare.
>
>Talan
The OED II (List, noun 3 - cloth/boundary) states that
liste/lyst/lyste/lyyst only appears in the alternative spelling forms
for definitions 3.4-3.7 with list (boundary) given as n 3.8 on. (List
noun 3, setion II as boundary, OED II)
Therefore, any spelling *except* the standard English List has no
historical precidence or provinance according to the OED II
d/A
Heather Senkler
> In article <td64m66...@corp.supernews.com>,
> Bryn Smith <personalbest1spam.com> wrote:
> >I saw it this past weekend, and thought it was quite amusing.
I was also amused.
However!
While channel flipping before my ride picked me up the other night, I
caught a glimpse of what had to have been the original on CBC-Radio
Canada. The scene involved Jean Reno and Cristian arriving at the
dentist's office to "rescue" the non-related woman. I had to dash but now
I am on a hunt for "Les Visiteurs". A movie website says there was a
sequel, but that is was not nearly as good as the first.
Adieu! Et vive Radio-Canada!
Ekatarina
Brian M. Scott
<david....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
[...]
>Therefore, any spelling *except* the standard English List has no
>historical precidence or provinance according to the OED II
I can't imagine how you came to this conclusion. I doubt that OED2
has dropped the 15th c. Malory citation in which he uses <lystes> to
refer to the area in which two knights were tilting.
Talan
Malachias Invictus
"thurman" <Hil...@navair.navy.mil> wrote in message
news:3AD44E70...@navair.navy.mil...
Sheesh. Now *that* was certainly unnecessary...
Malachias
Phil Anderson
>And for what it's worth, I first saw the pun (of a "Stop, Pay Troll"
>sign by a bridge) in a computer text adventure - Zork? Colossal Cave?
Colossal Cave, I think. I have a printout of the source code in
Fortran around somewhere...
Edward Lontg-hair
Southron Gaard, Caid
David Razler
'od's Balls(1), Talan, shouldst know better than to challenge thee at
a game of Sources.
Cross-referencing and going blind:
Under "Champion, v." the OED II gives a 1605 ref. to Shakespeare,
Macbeth III,i,72: "... Rather than so, come Fate into the Lyst, And
champion me to th'vtterance."
But I cannot, so far, find the Malory cite. It may well be there.
Anyone know a good opthomologist in South Jersey/Philly area???
d/A
(1) Rare epithet recorded only in 'Shakespeare Loste Comedeys' aka 'Or
Anything You Want To' - The Firesign Theatre production
Brian M. Scott
<david....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 15 Apr 2001 01:36:57 GMT, sc...@math.csuohio.edu (Brian M.
>Scott) wrote:
>>On Sat, 14 Apr 2001 17:56:29 GMT, David Razler
>><david....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>[...]
>>>Therefore, any spelling *except* the standard English List has no
>>>historical precidence or provinance according to the OED II
>>I can't imagine how you came to this conclusion. I doubt that OED2
>>has dropped the 15th c. Malory citation in which he uses <lystes> to
>>refer to the area in which two knights were tilting.
>'od's Balls(1), Talan, shouldst know better than to challenge thee at
>a game of Sources.
>Cross-referencing and going blind:
>Under "Champion, v." the OED II gives a 1605 ref. to Shakespeare,
>Macbeth III,i,72: "... Rather than so, come Fate into the Lyst, And
>champion me to th'vtterance."
>
>But I cannot, so far, find the Malory cite. It may well be there.
>Anyone know a good opthomologist in South Jersey/Philly area???
No, but I'm at school now, so I can point you to the citation: you
want definition II.9.a. Look for the 1470-85 citation from Malory.
Talan
Benoit Fiset
"Brian M. Scott" a écrit :
In French we use LICE, according to Robert french dictionary it's from
1155.
Que le Seigneur tout puissant vous veuille prester vie longue en toute
et sincere félicité.
Seigneur Godfroy Garmallon
Baro Portum
Protégé de Sa Grace Marieke van Der Dal
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Born of the Sword
Ruled by a Crown
Surrounded by the 21st Century
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Benoit Fiset Technicien en Géomatique
bfi...@clic.net GIS technicien
a.k.a: Seigneur Godfroy Garmallon, GoA,OSC,OBT
In the Society for Creative Anachronisim
http://www.sca.org/
Baronnie du Havre des Glaces
http://www.havredesglaces.eastkingdom.org/
Ville de Québec, Canada
City of Quebec, Canada
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
>"Brian M. Scott" a écrit :
>
>> On Sat, 14 Apr 2001 17:56:29 GMT, David Razler
>> <david....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> >Therefore, any spelling *except* the standard English List has no
>> >historical precidence or provinance according to the OED II
>>
>> I can't imagine how you came to this conclusion. I doubt that OED2
>> has dropped the 15th c. Malory citation in which he uses <lystes> to
>> refer to the area in which two knights were tilting.
>In French we use LICE, according to Robert french dictionary it's from
>1155.
Yes, used by Wace. It's a borrowing from Frankish *listja, which is
doubtless cognate with English <list>.
Talan
Walter Daniels
wrote:
>On Wed, 04 Apr 2001 09:17:50 -0700,
>Henry Vanderbilt <hvand...@bix.com> wrote:
>> Arval d'Espas Nord wrote:
>> >
>> > I think Tanglws has no more than half the answer to why the term remains in
>> > use.
>If I here one more camera called a soul-stealer I just know I'm going
>to snap...
Could I get a nice *X10 color copy, when you do?
(I said it was a joke, I never said it was _funny_.)
>--
>Robert Uhl <ru...@4dv.net>
>
>There is no problem which cannot be solved by the judicious application
>of firepower.
>
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give things a older flavor.. So ..
The Y might be the origin of the dot over the I, since for a number of years, Y
had a dot over it to show it was a Y.
Morgoth
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