Urban Legends
Tony Jebson
XXX was returning from an event at YYY whilst still wearing costume/garb. Well,
when crossing a park, someone tries to mug them. The mugger runs aways when
their knife breaks on the mail hauberk, and the muggee (?) draws a (steel)
sword...
I've heard several variants of this, and actually know someone it *really*
happened to - it was a Stanley (craft/modelling) knife. Not an SCA tale, but
in the same vein.
Tony
/dev/brain: Permission denied.
--- Tony Jebson --- International Computers Limited (ICL)
--- +44 625 617193 --- +44 61 223 1301 ext 3099 (work)
--- a...@wg.icl.co.uk --- All opinions expressed here (however stupid) are my own,
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Ercil C. Howard-Wroth
>A recurring apocryphal tale:
>
>XXX was returning from an event at YYY whilst still wearing costume/garb. Well,
>when crossing a park, someone tries to mug them. The mugger runs aways when
>their knife breaks on the mail hauberk, and the muggee (?) draws a (steel)
>sword...
>
>I've heard several variants of this, and actually know someone it *really*
>happened to - it was a Stanley (craft/modelling) knife. Not an SCA tale, but
>in the same vein.
>
> Tony
>
>/dev/brain: Permission denied.
A version I have heard, which my lord knows better, but has not
posted concerns Yang the Nauseating.
It seems that Yang wished to purchase a sword located in a not very
safe area of Chicago. As it turns out Yang found the sword and
after haggling it took more of his money than planned for the purchase
leaving him without funds for a mass transit ride home.
Where upon Yang began to walk, carrying his sword under his long coat.
It seems a misguided individual wished to relieve Yang of cash that
Yang did not have and pulled a knife on him. Yang did not think well
of this and he pulled his sword out of the scabard and frightened
the individual away. (note: this was years in advance of Crocodile
Dundee).
As long as we speak on Yang the Nauseating and Urban Legends...
It happened that a fellow SCAdian wished to contact Yang via
farspeaker and did not have the correct number or Yang's mundane
name. But he called information anyway. The operator was a bit
surprised by the name and exclaimed `Yang the Nauseating?'
to which a fellow operator replied `I know him!' and gave the other
operater the correct mundane name and the number was forthwith
rendered unto Yang's Friend.
My Lord, Eirikr had the telling of these tales from an unremembered
source from many years ago when the Barony of the Eldern Hills was
still a shire.
Astridhr Selr Leifsdottir
E. Howard-Wroth
...uunet!astrid!astridhr Shire of Heatherwyne
astrid!astr...@uunet.UU.NET Kingdom of Caid
70327...@compuserve.com
Mark B. Wroth
many years ago quite well. I would add only one quote
>
>It seems that Yang wished to purchase a sword located in a not very
>safe area of Chicago. As it turns out Yang found the sword and
>after haggling it took more of his money than planned for the purchase
>leaving him without funds for a mass transit ride home.
>Where upon Yang began to walk, carrying his sword under his long coat.
>It seems a misguided individual wished to relieve Yang of cash that
>Yang did not have and pulled a knife on him. Yang did not think well
>of this and he pulled his sword out of the scabard and frightened
>the individual away. (note: this was years in advance of Crocodile
>Dundee).
Yang is reported to have looked at the knife the mugger was
holding and said "I'll see your six [draws swaord] and raise you thirty."
Yang is reasonably well known as a SF author; I don't know if he's
still active in the SCA. If anyone does know him, I'd love to hear
these stories as he recalls them.
--
Eirikr Mjoksiglandi Sigurdharson
...uunet!astrid!eirikr Shire of Heatherwyne
astrid!eir...@uunet.UU.NET Kingdom of Caid
70327...@compuserve.com
Dave Montuori
>It happened that a fellow SCAdian wished to contact Yang via
>farspeaker and did not have the correct number or Yang's mundane
>name. But he called information anyway. The operator was a bit
And asked El of Two Knives "Are you *sure* sir?" several times
(El asked for "Nauseating, Yang T." if I remember the story aright)
before repeating the name out loud, at which point...
>to which a fellow operator replied `I know him!' and gave the other
>operater the correct mundane name and the number was forthwith
>rendered unto Yang's Friend.
Arval must know this story better than I do, so corrections (if
necessary) are invited.
The "I'll see you six and raise you thirty" story dates from a
time when it would have been *extremely* unusual for a garden
variety mugger to carry a gun, even in New York City (the setting
for the version I first heard).
Joe Bethancourt
: Evan
: dmontuor%telene...@uunet.uu.net
It didn;t happen to Yang. It -did- happen to Countess Trude Lacklandia.
--
lock...@indirect.com PO Box 35190 Locksley Plot Systems
White Tree Productions Phoenix, AZ 85069 USA CyberMongol Ltd
"Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
at best it will break your heart, at worst, get you dead."
Dorothy J Heydt
Joe Bethancourt <lock...@indirect.com> wrote:
>
>: ..."I'll see you six and raise you thirty" ....
>
>It didn;t happen to Yang. It -did- happen to Countess Trude Lacklandia.
Are you sure on that? The story was told about Jerry Pournelle
before there ever was an SCA.
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable djh...@uclink.berkeley.edu
PRO DEO ET REGE
jye...@bga.com
yo', hordish bard-type dude ...
greetings and all that....
anyone ever chronicle these "urban legends" ... would make a *great* SCAdian
publication. figured since you've been here longer than the forests
(compliment) you would have a better starting database (would make interesting
songs, eh?)
by the by, was cleaning out the lair this weekend and found some papers from
the "Ansteorran Inquisition" (... if memory serves you got sucked into that
one) including Sir Sean's origional "petition" ... ought to be framed and
placed into the kingdom archives or at least have a song crafted around it (and
you didn't hear it here, but i also know where the long lost origional crowns
reside ... more relics from the early years)
'wolf
.. aka: "Blackwolf"
keltoi cyber-barb who hangs with mongols (perhaps i shouldn't put it just that
way ...)
Larry Shields
relatedness, here is a message someone sent me a while ago, though
I don't remember who it was. It contains many of the more commonly
heard ones...
......................
1. Blood for Odin: SCA member is stalked by muggers. Gets to his car
and opens trunk just as the muggers put a switchblade to his ribs. He
picks up his gigantic double-blade ax, screams "Blood for Odin" and the
muggers break the minute mile out of there.
2. The Convenience Store Holdup: SCA member works at convenience
store. He goes to fighter practice after work, so he always wears his
chain mail under his clothes. Guy comes in and asks for cigarettes. He
turns to get them, feels something in his back, and the guy demands the
register money. He picks up blunt weapon (sometimes a rattan sword)
from under counter, turns and clocks the guy, knocking him cold. A
patron is helping him pull a knife out of his chainmail as the cops
arrive.
3. The Biker Rumble: Members of a motorcycle gang decide to crash an
SCA tourney, kick some ass, and generally wipe up the ground with those
people in funny clothes. King sees them coming, yells "For steel!" and
every person there pulls a weapon and heads for the bikers, who exit
quickly when confronted by this heavily-armed army.
4. "THIS is a knife!": In an incident exactly like the one in
Crocodile Dundee, a mugger confronts an SCA type who whips out a huge
knife or broadsword, drops into a fighting stance, and says "That's not
a knife: THIS is a knife!" He usually takes the mugger's switchblade
home as a trophy.
Everyone always knows EXACTLY who this happened to, and names names. If
you ask the person, they say "That wasn't me, but I can tell you who it
*really* was." This goes through several people, and eventually, you
come back to the first party. Locations and various details change.
I've read versions in magazines, tabloids, and newspapers, too.
Mention was made of an SCA legend as follows:
>There was an SCA demo going on at some campus and someone heard a
>woman screaming. They saw two (mundane) guys dragging a (mundane)
>woman into a car. The two SCAdians who saw this were carrying
>live steel halberds, and they got in front of the car and set their
>polearms in the "prepare to repel horse" position. Supposedly
>one polearm went through the windshield and the other went through
>the engine block.
It sounds like it could have spun off an incident at Chico State years
and years ago, where some mundanes in pick-em-up trucks tried to kidnap
an SCA woman for a little fun and games. (Wenches, you know.) It
turned into a wild car chase. I've never been sure if it was a legend
or something that really happened. I do know the SCA hasn't done demos
at Chico State, ever since.
And, for those of you who want a REAL biker incident, I have the
classic. This really happened. I was in charge of site security that
night. Along about midnight, this pickup truck pulls up, and my friend
who is checking people in gives standard site warnings, collects fees,
and says casually, "Who are you guys, anyway?" "Oh, we're Mongols,"
they say. He nods, noticing the back of the truck is full of kegs of
beer. "Well, don't have many of those yet, but Barbarian Freehold is
down at the end." They sign waivers and drive in. About five minutes
pass. They drive back out, white as sheets. "Who ARE you guys?" they
ask. "Society for Creative Anachronism," he says. "Who are you?"
"We're the Mongols, a biker gang? We're looking for the big biker
rumble at a campground around here?" He tells them that he hasn't seen
any rumbles, and refunds their money.
The next morning, a noted member of the group says "The MONGOLS?! Those
are cool guys! I used to ride with them." Honest. I still have the
waiver signed with names like "Injun Joe" and Chico.
Here are some more famous (?) urban legends from the SCA. Nearly everyone has
heard that this happened to Lord/Lady FOAF at one time or another.
The Lady and the Mugger: This one is said to have taken place in New York. A
woman was walking down the street when a knife-wielding mugger attacked her. He
was about to rape her when a bunch of SCAdians, still in armour from fighting
practice, came around the corner. Instantly they drew their swords and attacked
the mugger, eventually driving him off (some versions say he'd had his hand cut
off, or some such thing). After ascertaining that the woman was okay and
drawing some passersby to look after her, the fighters left. Later on the woman
testified to the police that she'd been saved by some knights in shining armour,
but she never did find out who they were.
The Baron of Someplace: (this one may actually have happened) A bunch of SCAdian
types were having a demo in a park somewhere. There were fighters and dancers
and musicians and all sorts of people, roaming around in mediaeval costume and
conversing with the passersby. One of the things that characterizes the SCA is
the fact that one has to earn titles and have them awarded by the Royalty in
order to call oneself "Lord", "Lady", "Sir", or whatever. Anyway, a nice young
man with a European accent came to see what was going on and ended up having a
pretty good time for himself. He asked the local SCAdians about joining the
group. When they asked him his name, he said, "Baron Thusandso." They
explained that he couldn't call himself a Baron because he hadn't earned the
title, and then they asked what his real name was. He replied, "Baron
Thusandso." It turns out he was a REAL Baron from somewhere in Europe.
The Health Inspector: (This is a variation on the chainmail stories.) One
SCAdian type was a health inspector from someplace in New Jersey (or so the
story goes). Anyway, this person never took off his chain mail (people
sometimes wear it all day in order to get used to the weight, but this man
took that to extremes by wearing it under his suit to work.). One day he was
called upon to inspect a particularly bad restaurant and to shut it down. He
arrived there with the appropriate papers and was just about to declare the
place closed when the owner threw a meat cleaver at him. Imagine the owner's
face when the meat cleaver bounced off the inspector's chest! Anyway, the
owner got some time in jail and the inspector got a few bruises.
Aren't interactions with mundane's fun? My favorite is about the time
the IRS called into question the kingdom's non-profit status, and sent
an auditor out to check it over.
Auditor: How do you choose your president?
SCAdian: We don't have a president.
Auditor: Well, your CEO, then?
SCAdian: We don't have a CEO.
Auditor: Well, what do you call the person who runs things?
SCAdian: The King.
Auditor: King? Strange. Well, how do you choose him? Elections?
SCAdian: No, trial by combat.
And that ended the audit.
..........
I always enjoy reading through these occasionally for a good laugh. =)
Hachirou Kataura
Clan Yamakaminari
--
==========================================================================
"My vision, one nation, one tribe, # Larry Shields ------- Blackwolf
one day will come the might to move # -------- ITS Operator ---------
any mountain" - The Shamen # ------- shi...@rpi.edu --------
joseph thomas pepersack
Tony Jebson <a...@wg.icl.co.uk> wrote:
>A recurring apocryphal tale:
>
>XXX was returning from an event at YYY whilst still wearing costume/garb. Well,
>when crossing a park, someone tries to mug them. The mugger runs aways when
>their knife breaks on the mail hauberk, and the muggee (?) draws a (steel)
>sword...
>
>I've heard several variants of this, and actually know someone it *really*
>happened to - it was a Stanley (craft/modelling) knife. Not an SCA tale, but
>in the same vein.
>
my wallet and my keys... plus a nice wad of cash (I had just gotten my paycheck
cashed) If I had only had my broadsword... or my gun, for that matter.
F.L. Watkins
As I recall, Bob had "Nauseating, Y.T." listed in the phone book
in Ann Arbor for some time, although that may have postdated
El's attempt to contact him.
There was a letter that arrived successfully after being addressed
only as "Snakepit, Ann Arbor..." (Snakepit was the name of Yang's
house; it was sort of a waystation for a number of Scadians thru
the years, since Bob--no matter what other faults he had--was
notoriously generous; I spent a few days there en route to and
from Pennsic II. It was cluttered and unclean, with books, knives,
magazines and cat feces scattered about, a pagan alter in the
attic (termed a halloween prop generally, since the SCA was not
so pagan tolerant in those days) and an absolute dearth of eating
utensils in the kitchen although Bob bragged that he was within
three feet of a weapon anywhere in the house.)
Yrs, Folo
--
Damin de Folo - F.L.Watkins - fo...@prairienet.org
Baron Wurm Wald (MidRealm) - Commander Baldwin's (NWTA)
"I Guess We Know Who Wears the Clamps in This Family..."
Glenn F. Gorsuch
>Mention was made of an SCA legend as follows:
>
>>There was an SCA demo going on at some campus and someone heard a
>>woman screaming. They saw two (mundane) guys dragging a (mundane)
>>woman into a car. The two SCAdians who saw this were carrying
>>live steel halberds, and they got in front of the car and set their
>>polearms in the "prepare to repel horse" position. Supposedly
>>one polearm went through the windshield and the other went through
>>the engine block.
>
>It sounds like it could have spun off an incident at Chico State years
>and years ago, where some mundanes in pick-em-up trucks tried to kidnap
>an SCA woman for a little fun and games. (Wenches, you know.) It
>turned into a wild car chase. I've never been sure if it was a legend
>or something that really happened. I do know the SCA hasn't done demos
>at Chico State, ever since.
>
I crave your pardon, my friend, but HUH? Chico State in California?
This I've never heard, and I've been playing in that very same spot for a
quartet of years. Details? Please? As for not doing demos at CSUC, I
can certainly state it isn't so. On the average, we do a couple a year there.
Maybe it's time I got our good Baron to fess up! I do know, btw, that Rivenoak
(mka Chico) has only been around 10-14 years ('course, I don't know your
definition of "years and years".
Gwyn Chwith ap Llyr
Barony of Rivenoak
--
This insightful commentary was brought to you by Glenn F. Gorsuch. Treasure it.
Address? Oh yeah. It's: ggor...@ecst.csuchico.edu Like I'd lie :)
I stand behind everything I just said. Way behind, if possible. Miles, even.
You have come to The End. Please flip this post over and press play to continue.
Nigel Haslock
Greetings from Fiacha
In article <33an5t$3...@usenet.rpi.edu>, shi...@van-gogh.its.rpi.edu (Larry Shields) writes:
|> Since people are commenting with various urban legends of SCA
|> relatedness, here is a message someone sent me a while ago, though
|> I don't remember who it was. It contains many of the more commonly
|> heard ones...
|> ......................
|> The Health Inspector: (This is a variation on the chainmail stories.) One
|> SCAdian type was a health inspector from someplace in New Jersey (or so the
|> story goes). Anyway, this person never took off his chain mail (people
|> sometimes wear it all day in order to get used to the weight, but this man
|> took that to extremes by wearing it under his suit to work.). One day he was
|> called upon to inspect a particularly bad restaurant and to shut it down. He
|> arrived there with the appropriate papers and was just about to declare the
|> place closed when the owner threw a meat cleaver at him. Imagine the owner's
|> face when the meat cleaver bounced off the inspector's chest! Anyway, the
|> owner got some time in jail and the inspector got a few bruises.
Find Andrew Mac Robb (perpure and or, a keyhole counterchanged, sometimes
called the purple people eater) at Pennsic and ask him to tell you what
happened to him.
His son was posting here a while ago too. This version is a little different
from the one I heard from him, but it is close.
Some legends are true.
Fiacha
AnTir
BARBARA ESCHELMUELLER
: >It didn;t happen to Yang. It -did- happen to Countess Trude Lacklandia.
: Are you sure on that? The story was told about Jerry Pournelle
: before there ever was an SCA.
At least the version Sir Trude Lacklandia tells sounds very much like the
story behind this song. Specially when she talks about the bards license
to embellish. But why not ask the write of the song - which is if I
got it right a certain Ioseph of Locksley - where he got the material.
Best regards,
Jean le confus
debbi jaggard
told to me by someone I used to date. Seems a group of Scadians were
working with a local theatre group doing shakespeare. They were all
done up for a dress rehersal and went out for a break (though why one
would leave rehersal in costume was not explained). Some one came up
to them in the eatery and said "Hey, are you guys in the SCA", to which
they replied "No, we're in a play".
Siobhan, the bean
Kathy Duffy
S>The Health Inspector: (This is a variation on the chainmail stories.) One
>SCAdian type was a health inspector from someplace in New Jersey (or so the
>story goes). Anyway, this person never took off his chain mail (people
>sometimes wear it all day in order to get used to the weight, but this man
>took that to extremes by wearing it under his suit to work.). One day he was
>called upon to inspect a particularly bad restaurant and to shut it down. He
>arrived there with the appropriate papers and was just about to declare the
>place closed when the owner threw a meat cleaver at him. Imagine the owner's
>face when the meat cleaver bounced off the inspector's chest! Anyway, the
>owner got some time in jail and the inspector got a few bruises.
I had heard this was a Lord from the Barony of Carillon, Andrew MacRobb
of bardic fame.
---
* OLX 1.52 * A committee is 12 men doing the work of one.
Tony Jebson
Geoffrey the Quiet on this issue. First, it is dangerous (like Indy, the mugger
might well be carrying a gun); second, *you* could end up on the wrong end of
a law suit/criminal prosecution!
Having said that, here is a different (non-heroic ?) legend which, though
not an SCA tale, is quite fun (and not in the standard legend list):
There is a rumour in the UK that the Norse Film and Pageant Society (aka
The Vikings!) trained the police in shield tactics. Look at any footage of
the UK riot police and you will see why: nice round shields, proper shield
wall, batons held at high guard. I've even seen them use a "boar-snout"
formation to break up a crowd! You never know, it might even be true ;)
This tale dates from when the police changed the style of their shields from
large rectangular to pretty standard size Viking round shields.
Tony
Matthew James Drury
and post it immediately. It should be online here by the end of
the week. It's a bit dated but has some classics.
--
Matt Drury, Forums Manager
The 'Go Graphics' Group, Inc | When on CompuServe, GO GRAPHICS
Sunny Orlando, Florida
Mine opinions mine own.
Mike Andrews
a...@wg.icl.co.uk (Tony Jebson) writes:
>There is a rumour in the UK that the Norse Film and Pageant Society (aka
>The Vikings!) trained the police in shield tactics. Look at any footage of
>the UK riot police and you will see why: nice round shields, proper shield
>wall, batons held at high guard. I've even seen them use a "boar-snout"
>formation to break up a crowd! You never know, it might even be true ;)
>
>This tale dates from when the police changed the style of their shields from
>large rectangular to pretty standard size Viking round shields.
I have been told very much the same story about the fighters in
the Barony of the Steppes (Dallas, Tx., and environs) and the
Dallas Police Dept. I have no idea at all about the truth of the
tale, but that's a different matter.
--
Michael Fenwick of Fotheringhay, O.L. (Mike Andrews) Namron, Ansteorra
Pray for the repose of the soul of Katherine Godfrey (1955-1994),
much loved and greatly missed.
jye...@bga.com
> from Pennsic II. It was cluttered and unclean, with books, knives,
> magazines and cat feces scattered about, a pagan alter in the
> attic (termed a halloween prop generally, since the SCA was not
> so pagan tolerant in those days) and an absolute dearth of eating
> utensils in the kitchen although Bob bragged that he was within
> three feet of a weapon anywhere in the house.)
hmmm, subtract the cat feces, relocate the alter, add harley and computer parts
and sub-systems and you have a close approximation of my lair ... bet he was
one of those pampered and overly civilized types that had a bathtub/shower *in*
the house (mine is 6 miles south next to the river at the moment).
can relate about the 3-foot rule though ... as for lack of eating utensils,
there's plenty of knives scattered about, though it makes yogurt problematic
'wolf
jye...@bga.com
> I chronicled the 'urban myths' a while back. I can pull the file
> off my Forum and send it through the Rialto if desired.
once the web server i am building goes operational, would you care to
contribute it for conversion into hypertext for the SCA archive area?
'wolf
Nate Schroeder
One I heard told of some Three Rivers folks, before I joined (in AS 12) -
Arwyn, Jason d'Westershire, and another (Lloyd?) were bored one evening, and
decided to go trolling in Forest Park for muggers. (FYI: Arwyn is quite
beautiful, VERY well built, and I think I'm safe because I don't think she
reads the Rialto.) Arwyn strolled apparently alone through the dark park; the
men followed at a certain distance, not obviously "with" her. She was accosted
twice that evening; both times, of course, the men rushed to her aid. One of
the times, the assailant was still standing when they got there. (Arwyn is
also VERY dangerous.)
--not ADVOCATING this behavior, but it's an entertaining story...
On a related thread, Geoffrey writes:
> But I see little heroism in fighting someone, dregs though they might be,
> over a matter of perhaps a hundred dollars.
Agreed; there are more entertaining ways of thwarting them. I have been
accosted at gunpoint and had my money demanded of me. I replied that I was
carrying no wallet. He asked what that bulge was in my coat pocket; I produced
and offered him my mitten (he declined). Presently he left; I retained the $90
I was carrying.
Harald of Bears'Haven
Three Rivers
Calontir
Nate Schroeder
> Coeur d'Ennui (Heart of Boredom) has a device with seven or so Boar's heads
> in a circle. (Boar-Ring)
Eight, I think, but yes.
> Rumor was once that a certain Lord Finn was planning to have arms of
> ten nooses.. Jarl Finn (now that he has been knighted, and prefers
> the prenomen more appropriate to his persona) supposedly never passed
> the arms, but if he had...
>
> Sir Finn, with the device "Hang Ten"...
Beautiful!
Also: Friar Bertram: a bear's head couped, <surrounded by flames - I forget the
proper blazon> = Fire Bear-Trim.
Also: William Coeur do Boeuf (+ RIP +): <some tincture>, a fess between an elm
tree and and eye, all Or = Fess;Elm;Eye Or = Fesselmeyer, his mundane name.
Another I have heard of: a cross of St. James between two manacles in pale =
(reading from top down) Bond; James, Bond.
My own arms: <shoot, I don't have the blazon handy - it's got a bear proper
holding a trumpet Or, under a chief wavy Azure> = a bear herald in heaven = the
herald of bear's heaven.
--Another source of good name puns was Three Rivers's annual Feast of
Changelings, where everyone came to the feast as a parody of someone else, or
some other amusing persona: Fernando in a Hawaiian shirt being Surfin' Kelly
(Sir Finn Kelly); Odo dressed in purple with white diagonal stripes, being
Purple Freddy ("everyone knows Three Rivers has a Purple Fretty"); Olga, then
our herald, wearing wings and a halo and a nametag "Hello my name is...HARK"
(no, she didn't sing); Cormac O'Sullivan and Andrew of Seldomrest coming as
each other (Andrew had to kneel to make the heights right)....
Harald of Bears'Haven
Lyle Gray
with a barrel (a "tun") overlaying a compass (to take "bearings"):
Bearing;tun.
Lyle FitzWilliam
--
------------------------------------------------------ NON ANIMAM CONTINE
Lyle H. Gray Internet (personal): gr...@cs.umass.edu
Quodata Corporation Phone: (203) 728-6777, FAX: (203) 247-0249
--(My opinions are my own, and do not represent my employer's opinions)--
Joe Bethancourt
: Joe Bethancourt <lock...@indirect.com> wrote:
: >
: >: ..."I'll see you six and raise you thirty" ....
: >
: >It didn;t happen to Yang. It -did- happen to Countess Trude Lacklandia.
: Are you sure on that? The story was told about Jerry Pournelle
: before there ever was an SCA.
All I know is that I heard it from Trude.
Jeff Berry
Well, my arms, passed when I was young and foolish (not too long ago
actually), are: Per pale wavy, purpure and argent, a serpent glissant argent,
and a wolf rampant sable.
Those who knew my musical predilections rapidly determined that what I
have is:
Whitesnake on Deep Purple (especially amusing to those who know the
history of the two groups)
and on Argent, a Steppin' Wolf.
badger Don Alexandre Lerot d'Avigne
Jeff Berry Caer Galen, Outlands
ne...@ncar.ucar.edu
NCAR doesn't tell me what to think, and I return the favor.
"You're a notch and I'm a legend"-------Alice Cooper
"I don't need TV when I've got T-Rex"------Mott the Hoople
Matthew James Drury
William Linden
: Joe Bethancourt <lock...@indirect.com> wrote:
: >
: >: ..."I'll see you six and raise you thirty" ....
: >
: >It didn;t happen to Yang. It -did- happen to Countess Trude Lacklandia.
: Are you sure on that? The story was told about Jerry Pournelle
: before there ever was an SCA.
And the version I heard had it as Tim Daniels ("Corwin")...
William Linden
: There was a letter that arrived successfully after being addressed
: only as "Snakepit, Ann Arbor..." (Snakepit was the name of Yang's
Cook in the World, the House on Alcatraz Avenue, Berkeley" (it was in
Oakland.) Although I can not help wondering if that was when Janet of
Breakstone was delivering mail.
Francis A. Ney, Jr.
> As someone who posted a legend I would like to say that I totally agree with
> Geoffrey the Quiet on this issue. First, it is dangerous (like Indy, the mugger
> might well be carrying a gun); second, *you* could end up on the wrong end of
> a law suit/criminal prosecution!
This is a systemic problem and the reason why the criminals are winning the
war. Kitty Genovese was the first in a long line of incidents where
bystanders refuse to render assistance for the reasons described above.
The fear mongers are taking over. We *need* our legends to demonstrate that
sometimes the good guys win, too.
Francis du Chalfont, Journeyman Chirurgeon
Frank Ney EMT-A N4ZHG LPVa NRA ILA GOA CCTRKBA LEAA JPFO 'M-O-U-S-E'
--
"Apparently on New Texas, killing a politician was not _malum in se_, and was
_malum prohibitorum_ only to the extent that what the politician got was in
excess of what he deserved."
-H. Beam Piper, _Lone Star Planet/A Planet For Texans_
David Schroeder
Excerpts from netnews.rec.org.sca: 25-Aug-94 Re: Amusing Arms
by Lyle Gr...@ibis.cs.umass.
> Bertram of Bearington submitted (I honestly don't know if they passed...)
> arms with a barrel (a "tun") overlaying a compass (to take "bearings"):
> Bearing;tun.
>
> Lyle FitzWilliam
If memory serves, the compass needle was ON TOP OF the barrel...
(memory served -- I've got the armorial listings below)
Bertram of Bearington|7908|B|Argent, a brown bear's head couped
affronty proper within a bordure sable.|
These were my original arms, registered about 4 years after I joined.
I turned them into a badge some years later.
Bertram of Bearington|8211|B|Argent, a bear's head cabossed sable,
enflamed proper, within in annulo four lozenges in cross and four
mascles in saltire sable.|
This was taking my original arms and making them a rather
stretched cant. The alternating lozenges and mascles in a
circle around the outside of the flaming bear's head looked
like period musical notes, so it was really:
"Fire, bear-trim of bear ring tune."
Which makes more sense if you know my original persona was
"Friar Bertram."
Bertram of Bearington|8211|D|Gules, a printer's ball argent inked sable.|
These are my current arms, and have been for a dozen years.
They are so period in style that I later found them on a
shield carried by retainers of the Duke of Milan in a book
of 15th century illuminations (with minor differences).
I'd hoped for a five word blazon -- Gules, a printer's
ball proper" but ended up with the one given above.
Bertram of Bearington|8701|B|Gules, a tun argent surmounted by a fusil
throughout quarterly argent and sable, all within a bordure gyronny
sable and argent.|
This is my bearing-tun. I've now been using "a printer's ball
argent inked sable" as my primary badge (did I ever actually
register the thing, Fridrikr?)
In my "old age" I've gotten over my need to make atrocious
heraldic puns (mostly) and _thought_ that I'd released quite
a bit of my old armory -- like the bear's heads and the like.
I'm honestly quite surprised to find them still in the version
of the armorial I've got on hand. If someone can check my
current listing in an up-to-date version and see what's left
I'd appreciate it.
Then again, I'm still responsible for the Chroniclers' device
and its "black and white and red all over" theme.
Take care, good gentles -- may your lives be full and your hearts merry.
My best -- Bertram
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
"Healing is a matter of time, but it is sometimes a matter of opportunity."
-- Hippocrates' _Precepts_ c.460-377 BCE
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Bertram of Bearington . Debatable Lands . AEthelmearc . East Kingdom . SCA
Dave Schroeder . Technical Manager, CISCORP . Pittsburgh . PA 412.731.3230
William Linden
: The Lady and the Mugger: This one is said to have taken place in New York. A
: woman was walking down the street when a knife-wielding mugger attacked her. He
: was about to rape her when a bunch of SCAdians, still in armour from fighting
: practice, came around the corner. Instantly they drew their swords and attacked
: the mugger, eventually driving him off (some versions say he'd had his hand cut
This sounds like a garbled version of the incident when some members
were attacked on the Staten Island Rapid Transit after the tournament
where Koppel funem Laksfalk was knighted, and the new knight held them
off while the others escaped. Inevitably, this also gets garbled into
claims that he was knighted FOR the incident.
: The Health Inspector: (This is a variation on the chainmail stories.) One
: SCAdian type was a health inspector from someplace in New Jersey (or so the
: story goes). Anyway, this person never took off his chain mail (people
Check with Bishop Geoffrey, who is or was a Philadelphia B.O.H.
sanitarian.
Alfgar (Call me "Baron", dingaling!) the Sententious
Kim C Kozminski
Since you need names, the name I have is Master Knut, and he had
just finished his first rivetted hauberk. He decided to wear it out to
"see how it felt" under a fatigue jacket. He went to a favourite
neighborhood bar, and was having a drink, when a bar fight erupted about
him. A battered man came reeling out of the fight, landed against the
bar, and without thinking grabbed a bottle, smashed it on the bar and
punched the jagged edge into Knut's chest. The bottle crumbled, and as
the man gaped in astonishment, Knut cried, "It works!" , punched out the
man's lights (Knut benchpressed over 500 lbs.), and left the bar .
Master Knut has never personally verified this to me, but he is
still active in the SCA, if anyone wants to try to contact him.
Emeric Wendel, KSCA
P.S. (from Roen) Has anyone out there actually tipped over a cow?! (Not
your best friend's room-mate's cousin, but *You* personally!!!).
--
Don't think of it as aging, think of it as "Attaining Mythic Stature"
kc/Roen
who is, herself
Stephen Whitis
>from >large rectangular to pretty standard size Viking round shields.
>
>I have been told very much the same story about the fighters in
>the Barony of the Steppes (Dallas, Tx., and environs) and the
>Dallas Police Dept. I have no idea at all about the truth of the
>tale, but that's a different matter.
Michael, I can't verify that story, is disprove it. But I've never
heard it. We do have several SCA members who work for the local
law enforcement.
Stephen of the Grove
Steppes, Ansteorra
Stephen...@lunatic.com
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Free 30 Day Trial Subscription * Upload/Download on First Call!!
David Salley
> Greetings from Fiacha
> Larry Shields writes:
> |> Since people are commenting with various urban legends of SCA
> |> relatedness, here is a message someone sent me a while ago, though
> |> I don't remember who it was. It contains many of the more commonly
> |> heard ones...
> |> ......................
> |> The Health Inspector: (This is a variation on the chainmail stories.) One
> |> SCAdian type was a health inspector from someplace in New Jersey (or so the
> |> story goes). Anyway, this person never took off his chain mail (people
> |> sometimes wear it all day in order to get used to the weight, but this man
> |> took that to extremes by wearing it under his suit to work.). One day he
> |> was called upon to inspect a particularly bad restaurant and to shut it
> |> down. He arrived there with the appropriate papers and was just about to
> |> declare the place closed when the owner threw a meat cleaver at him.
> |> Imagine the owner's face when the meat cleaver bounced off the inspector's
> |> chest! Anyway, the owner got some time in jail and the inspector got a
> |> few bruises.
> Find Andrew Mac Robb (purpure and or, a keyhole counterchanged, sometimes
> called the purple people eater) at Pennsic and ask him to tell you what
> happened to him.
Or write:
George Carmichael,
Health Department,
1 King's Highway,
Middletown NJ 07748-2594
His device is "Per pale purpure and Or, a keyhole counterchanged."
He calls it a "Per pale peephole heater." ;-)
> His son was posting here a while ago too. This version is a little different
> from the one I heard from him, but it is close.
> Some legends are true.
Thomas MacAndrew (Andrew MacRobb's son)
alias Tom Carmichael may be reached at:
tac...@hertz.njit.edu
- Dagonell
SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet : sal...@niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029
Movie Double Feature : "Bird on a Wire" and "The Muppet Movie"
jye...@bga.com
> It was culled some years ago from the Rialto. Feel free.
did you ever pick up the one about the wet herald they tried to dry off in the
microwave? or the mongols in the sewers of Chicago? (cheap rent is cheap rent
..)
'wolf
Geoffrey Brent
to have misunderstood what I was saying. For instance, the remarks about
bystanders allowing murder or similar crimes to occur.
Let me be clear. I did NOT suggest that self-defence was wrong, I did
not suggest that defending others against attack was wrong. My postings
related specifically to armed robbery, which is not quite the same as
assault/attempted murder.
I never said "Don't help that bystander, you might get hurt." What I
said was "If it's only your wallet the guy wants, why risk being shot or
stabbed ?"
Courage is all very well, but a sense of proportion is still useful.
There is no comparison between theft and attempted murder; certainly
neither should occur, but I do not see the point in risking my life for
however much I carry in my wallet and the inconvenience of replacing all
my ID cards.
--
Geoffrey the Quiet (gbr...@rsc.anu.edu.au)
Cas Caswell
<snip... clarification regarding when/when not to fight deleted>
: Courage is all very well, but a sense of proportion is still useful.
: There is no comparison between theft and attempted murder; certainly
: neither should occur, but I do not see the point in risking my life for
: however much I carry in my wallet and the inconvenience of replacing all
: my ID cards.
Yes, in many ways quite true and a valid point. Now remember that said
upstanding citizen has your address and name and quite possibly place of
employment should you carry a company ID in your wallet as well as your
driver's lisence (Yes... VERY US -centric). Said upstanding citizen has
demonstrated a willingness to redistibute your belongings to himself via
force. Do you have anyone, anything at home you might not want to place at
risk?
Yes... By getting into conflict with said upstanding citizen, you may also
place the folks at home at risk (if you lose, maybe even if you win depending
on the state of law enforcement in your area).
So, it becomes a very personal, very circumstance driven decision as to
whether to resist robbery (or pick your crime). Hopefully no one reading
these words will ever have to make that decision.
Personally, I've long felt as you do. It's just lately I started to realize
the interesting things that a wallet can tell about a person, rather than how
much cash and plastic they carry.
I now return you to the current middle ages.
Best Regards,
cas
: --
: Geoffrey the Quiet (gbr...@rsc.anu.edu.au)
--
=======================================================================
cas caswell "Fac ut gaudeam"
ca...@cup.hp.com By the way: I said it.... not my company.
=======================================================================
Domhnull
>Matthew James Drury (75300...@CompuServe.COM) wrote:
>: Blackwolf,
>: I chronicled the 'urban myths' a while back. I can pull the file
>: off my Forum and send it through the Rialto if desired.
>: --
>: Matt Drury, Forums Manager
>: The 'Go Graphics' Group, Inc | When on CompuServe, GO GRAPHICS
>: Sunny Orlando, Florida
>: Mine opinions mine own.
>Ship it at me too, Matt. BTW, your discs will be on the way in a copule
>of days. Sorry for the delay.
>--
>lock...@indirect.com PO Box 35190 Locksley Plot Systems
>White Tree Productions Phoenix, AZ 85069 USA CyberMongol Ltd
> "Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
> at best it will break your heart, at worst, get you dead."
Sorry, but the dreaded "me too" virus has bitten me as well. Please let me
know if there's any problem. Or let me know if there is a Compu$erve forum
that I can pull it from?!?
Blessings,
Domhnull
: Many people believe they are thinking when they are :
: merely rearranging their prejudices. -- William James :
:--lo...@usa.net--loliver@lfs.loral.c...@space.laafb.af.mil--:
--
>---------------------------------------------------------------------<
> These comments are made by a paid professional paranoid. I <
> don't really expect my employer to agree with any of them. <
>lol...@usa.net---OLIVERLW@space.laafb.af...@lfs.loral.com<
Matthew James Drury
Peter Thorn
In a previous article, kkoz...@mtholyoke.edu (Kim C Kozminski) says:
[Deletia]
>P.S. (from Roen) Has anyone out there actually tipped over a cow?! (Not
>your best friend's room-mate's cousin, but *You* personally!!!).
My mother and my uncle once knocked a cow out. Does that count?
The story, as near as I can remember it, is as follows:
My grandmother asked them to bring the cows in. This one cow didn't want
to leave the pasture, so my uncle chucked a rock at it to get it to move.
He miscalculated (mis-cow-culated?) and got it on the side of the head.
The bovine dropped like a...rock. They apparently spent fifteen-twenty
minutes in the field until the cow recovered.
I realize that it's not the same as tipping cows over (nor is it in any
way an urban legend); it is, however, a funny story.
Ouen atte Thorne
--
Peter Thorn aw...@freenet.carleton.ca
The Owlsburrow OTTAWA, Ontario, CANADA
"...no one owns him. Though sometimes he is friendly, he is not tame."
--R.A. MacAvoy, _The_Grey_Horse_
Geoffrey Brent
> : however much I carry in my wallet and the inconvenience of replacing all
> : my ID cards.
>
> Yes, in many ways quite true and a valid point. Now remember that said
> upstanding citizen has your address and name and quite possibly place of
> employment should you carry a company ID in your wallet as well as your
> driver's lisence (Yes... VERY US -centric). Said upstanding citizen has
> demonstrated a willingness to redistibute your belongings to himself via
> force. Do you have anyone, anything at home you might not want to place at
> risk?
This gives the guy information on where I live, and where I work. But
there's no particular reason for him to rob these places, as opposed to
anyone else's house. Your average mugger may be unpleasant and easily
moved to violence, but why would he make a point of robbing the same guy
twice ? (Someone who may well have bought a gun in the meantime...)
>
> Personally, I've long felt as you do. It's just lately I started to realize
> the interesting things that a wallet can tell about a person, rather than how
> much cash and plastic they carry.
Well, I'm pretty safe on that count. Looking through my wallet I find
useless IDs (useless to a mugger, that is, unless he wants cheap food at
the university), an unlabelled access card to somewhere a mugger will
have no interest in, and a lot of stuff that would be a nuisance to
replace. He can find my address; he can also see that I'm a student, and
we all know students are skint.
Matthew James Drury
in my Living History Forum (GO LIVING) on CIS as URBMYT.TXT if you need to
get it that way.
Tom Perigrin
version is said to have happened to Fritz Leiber (SF & F writer/Faferd and
the Grey Mouser). He had been at a poker game that had broken up late and
had left a considerable winner. Walking home through the streets of New
York, he was accosted by a mugger who demanded his money. Leiber said of the
knife, "I see your six, and I'll raise you thirty" and drew forth a sword
from his cane. The mugger declined to call and Leiber headed on home.
Margery Starseeker
Dorothy J Heydt
It wasn't Fritz Leiber (though it easily could have been); it was
Jerry Pournelle. I heard this told of Jerry in AS II, as
something that had happened two or three years previously.
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable djh...@uclink.berkeley.edu
PRO DEO ET REGE
Peter D. Hampe
>In article <33rqrk$e...@news.ccit.arizona.edu>,
>Tom Perigrin <t...@lead.tmc.edu> wrote:
>" As I have heard (traditional urban folklore beginning) the best
>"version is said to have happened to Fritz Leiber (SF & F writer/Faferd and
>"the Grey Mouser). He had been at a poker game that had broken up late and
>"had left a considerable winner. Walking home through the streets of New
>"York, he was accosted by a mugger who demanded his money. Leiber said of the
>"knife, "I see your six, and I'll raise you thirty" and drew forth a sword
>"from his cane. The mugger declined to call and Leiber headed on home.
>It wasn't Fritz Leiber (though it easily could have been); it was
>Jerry Pournelle. I heard this told of Jerry in AS II, as
>something that had happened two or three years previously.
And I know of a similar incident that Occured Here In Madrona.
Seems the good gentle was suffering from a concussion from an
earlier mugging when three ... "characters" decided to complete
the job. Drawing forth his Sword from his Cane, Our Hero did
challenge them, after giving one a Heildberg scar. "Fresh meat" was
his battle cry, although _later_ came the witty repartie he Should HAve
Used. 'Steppenwitz' they call it auf Deutsch.
[Names were not used because I respect his privacy.]
chus
Nikolai Petrovich
--
py...@halcyon.com Pyotr Filipivich, sometimes Owl.
Remeber: Dragons love you - dipped in chocolate.
"Bad Bill! No Pork!"
Stuart Walpole
-> This gives the guy information on where I live, and where I work. But
-> there's no particular reason for him to rob these places, as opposed to
-> anyone else's house. Your average mugger may be unpleasant and easily
-> moved to violence, but why would he make a point of robbing the same guy
-> twice ? (Someone who may well have bought a gun in the meantime...)
Hmmm. I know two ladies who (at gun-point) surrendered their purses to
robbers (this year). Without going into MUCH detail, have you considered
much thought to the subject as it applies to Ladies (who's house-keys
were in the purse as well as address on I.D. to aid in finding said house)
???
Selias
---
. AME 1.07 . Argumentative? No, I'm not!
----
ABSOLUT(e)LY TEMPORARY BBS (702) 254-8601
Las Vegas NV. USA PCBoard 15.1/10 OS/2 2.1
Joe Pepersack
>[Deletia]
>>P.S. (from Roen) Has anyone out there actually tipped over a cow?! (Not
>>your best friend's room-mate's cousin, but *You* personally!!!).
>
I confess. One evening after consuming many beers, I, my sister, her
best friend, and my sister's boyfriend (who was also my best friend...)
wandered across the road to the dairy farm and tipped several cows.
--
Amiga ///| Argent, an inverted chevron cotticed azure, |while (!graduated)
1200 /// | overall a lion rampant to sinister gaurdant sable |{ debt += alot;
\\\/// | "A strange situation, a wild occupation, living | hair--;
\XX/ | my life like a song" -- Jimmy Buffett | sanity--; }
Joe Pepersack
Stuart Walpole <stuart....@at.com> wrote:
>Geoffrey the Quiet (gbr...@rsc.anu.edu.au) wrote:
>
>-> This gives the guy information on where I live, and where I work. But
>-> there's no particular reason for him to rob these places, as opposed to
>-> anyone else's house. Your average mugger may be unpleasant and easily
>-> moved to violence, but why would he make a point of robbing the same guy
>-> twice ? (Someone who may well have bought a gun in the meantime...)
>
>Hmmm. I know two ladies who (at gun-point) surrendered their purses to
>robbers (this year). Without going into MUCH detail, have you considered
>much thought to the subject as it applies to Ladies (who's house-keys
>were in the purse as well as address on I.D. to aid in finding said house)
When I got mugged a few weeks back, the *#$#*@#$'s got my wallet & keys.
Fortunatly, my ID's didn't have my current address; but if they had managed
to find my home, they would have gotten quite a rude shock if they tried
to make an entrance.
Conrad Leviston
funny little black things on it, aka, an ermine, Or, holding and oar, ermine.
Cormac Lenihan.
Conrad Leviston | 'Quotation is the refuge of the fool'
is also found at| --Chinese Proverb
mong...@yoyo.cc| The thing I don't like about Dennis O'Connor is
.monash.edu.au | that he uses the term Socialist as an insult.
Lyle Gray
purpure, four fleurs-de-lis one, two, and one, Or. Reference: "Lilies of the
field."
Lyle FitzWilliam
------------------------------------------------------ NON ANIMAM CONTINE
Lyle H. Gray Internet (personal): gr...@cs.umass.edu
Quodata Corporation Phone: (203) 728-6777, FAX: (203) 247-0249
--(My opinions are my own, and do not represent my employer's opinions)--
Lynn Catlett
many cows around, so we have to make do with Canada geese.
One of our most profoundly weird grad students used to go
out in the evenings tipping the ones snoozing on one leg.
It annoyed them very much (but was much safer than picking
on bovines).
LinYinHo
full of avuncular* pride
*(what IS the female form of avuncular?)
Arval d'Espas Nord
LinYinHo asked:
> *(what IS the female form of avuncular?)
"Avuncular" derives from Latin "avunculus" (= uncle, a diminutive of "avus"
= grandfather). The parallel construction would derive from Latin "amita"
(= father's sister), by analogy to "avunculate" and "amitate" which refer
respectively to a special relationship in some cultures between a nephew
and his maternal uncle and between a niece and her paternal aunt. Thus,
the adjective analogous to "avuncular" is "amital" or "amitary".
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mit...@panix.com
Peter Thorn
In a previous article, lcat...@u.washington.edu (Lynn Catlett) says:
>Being located in the center of a large city, we don't have
>many cows around, so we have to make do with Canada geese.
>One of our most profoundly weird grad students used to go
>out in the evenings tipping the ones snoozing on one leg.
>It annoyed them very much (but was much safer than picking
>on bovines).
Are you KIDDDINGGGG????!!!!!!
I'd rather have 1/2 ton of angry beef on the hoof chasing me than one
pissed off Canada Goose.
Canada geese are a particularly nasty bit of business that should be
avoided at all costs!
Peter Thorn
(Lord Ouen doesn't know what a Canada goose _is_!)
Lynn Catlett
>> *(what IS the female form of avuncular?)
Zow! Thanks ...er, I mean, Wan Xie, Arval!
(oboy, oboy, a new word!)
LinYinHo
Lynn Catlett
Peter Thorn <aw...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>I'd rather have 1/2 ton of angry beef on the hoof chasing me than one
>pissed off Canada Goose.
! Not me! Having been nearly brained by a mere 300-400 lb
cow-ette (big for a calf but not grown yet) who was only playfully
kicking up her heels (to my eyebrow level) I'll take geese any
day... I do outweigh them by a factor of about 15 and
our reaches (arm:neck) are about equal. Furthermore
I, too, can stand on tip-toe, spread my wings and hiss:
it gives them pause.
Not uncommon sight here: flock of geese strolling thoughtfully
across the street in the crosswalk (wheelchair ramps are *so*
convenient). Occasionally some frantic city-dweller honks...
and one or more of the flock stop, stare, and honk *back*.
It only slows the process further. heehee :>
LinYinHo
who FEEDS them
much to the annoyance of the frisbie playing/sunbathing crowd
Jan Wagner
post in this area I thought I could slip this in!!
The Scribal Handbook for the Kingdom of An Tir is now 2/3rds
completed. The next step will be to submit the document to Black Lion
and the College of Heralds for final approval. If all goes well, the
scribes of An Tir should have it in hand before Twelfth Night! I am
sorry for the long delay but strongly feel it will be worth the wait!
Companion Gytha Anora ni Keran,OL
......and now back to the program..
Maryanne Bartlett
Josh Mittleman <mit...@panix.com> wrote:
>I've tracked back stories sufficiently well to pin down some original
>incidents. What I'd really like to see here are more first- or second-hand
>accounts. Did it happen to you? Did you hear the tale from the person to
>whom it happened (and do you trust that it was accurately told)?
I've a first-hand account of a long ago and far away place.
Somewhere in Atlantia, north of Storvik, in a place that goes by the
mundane name of Baltimore, there used to be a tavern called the
Purple Hippopotamus. This was a good bar to go to in garb because no one
there would look askance at those in real clothing. (the local gay bar,
BTW) Also, none there would bother ladies who came in accompanied by other
ladies rather than escorted by lords.
It chanced that one evening a group that I had been with, had been
practicing with quarterstaves and, feeling bruised and thirsty, we decided
to go get a beer or so and have a rest and maybe dance a bit, before
going home for the night. While we were within, a local redneck group
decided to lie in wait outside the door to "bash some fags" (their words,
spoken later to the constabulary).
Some of us needing to beat the curfew, still, we headed out the
door at a reasonable hour. The night being wet and windy, I suppose that
the villiens can be excused for not noticing that our group included
several ladies. They set upon us with large clubs (i.e.baseball bats) and
morningstars with neither ball nor handle (i.e.tire chains). They were
surprised in their turn for their expectation of beating on those who
would scream and run (nobody in *that* bar! They were pretty clueless!)
were proved groundless, immediately.* Staves proved *much* longer than
their clubs and as we'd been practicing using the staves to disarm those
with flail and/or morningstar... (Hey, this is '76 and we were all into
D&D!) I know that one of them lifted off the ground as I got him from
below with a staff at full length of swing. (satisfying, that!)
We left before the watch arrived, called by those within. None of
them still stood. I understand that at least one villien had to be taken
to the hospital and that there was much groaning and moaning to be heard
from the constabulary wagon.
--Anja--(I'm usually pretty gentle, but their attitude offends me still!)
*(This was right at the height of the anti-gay yowlings in 1976. It was
pretty common then, for anyone who looked targetable, gay or not, to be
set upon by one of these groups. One of the profs landed in the hopsital
and he was Catholic and had 14 kids!)
... The SCA: A Dream to some, a Knight-mare to others.
Maryanne Bartlett
GS> A small background... while not SCAdian, this group performs in garb
GS> around the Washington, DC metro area and at the Maryland RenFest. I
GS> just happen to be the lone SCAdian in the group so I think it still
GS> fits in this discussion...
GS> Anyway, a couple of years ago, we were perfroming at the National
<snip> This story sounds familiar. You wouldn't happen to be the gentle
known at one time as Zhenya of the two big swords, would you? If so, Elena
Brightstar sends greetings.
GS> All, this brings a couple thought to mind...
GS> 1) Just how strange did we look that they didn't want to mess with us?
GS> :)
I don't know if the laws around there have changed any since I
lived nearby, but *big* swords are a good deterrent!
GS> 2) Just how dense were we that we didn't notice what was heppening
GS> around us? :)
Rofl!
--Anja--
... Epsimis oddimus eedipus bey, crickitis crackitus fire away! <BOOM>
Suze Hammond
> As someone who posted a legend I would like to say that I totally agree with
> Geoffrey the Quiet on this issue. First, it is dangerous (like Indy, the
> mugger might well be carrying a gun); second, *you* could end up on
> the wrong end of a law suit/criminal prosecution!
FANJ> This is a systemic problem and the reason why the criminals are
FANJ> winning the war. Kitty Genovese was the first in a long line of
FANJ> incidents where bystanders refuse to render assistance for the reasons
FANJ> described above.
FANJ> The fear mongers are taking over. We *need* our legends to
FANJ> demonstrate that sometimes the good guys win, too.
Plus, quite frankly, there are some causes that are worth DYING for. I'm
not sure I'd include a few six-packs of beer, myself, but there are
certainly some things I am prepared to die for, certain principles,
certain lives, etc.
As one previous message noted via poetry, we all DIE. Eventually we -all-
do. There are better ways to die than in a rest home attached to a tube at
the age of 110. Perhaps Conn felt stopping thievery was worth the effort.
Perhaps that was an action he just couldn't abide. One of my own daughters
blind-sided someone doing a "beer run" in the Safeway she works at,
getting a bloody lip out of it, (she weighs 100 lbs.) and doing it against
the shouted orders of her supervisor. She HATES thieves. Passionately. I
would have tripped him, myself, and then ducked out. But I'm not her and
she's not me. (BTW, she's not SCA...)
Back in the "Wild West" people -knew- that being a crook was dangerous,
and ordinary people would oppose you (violently sometimes). Anyone might
be armed. It's easier to be "good" when you cannot be secure in being bad.
Although vigilante-ism is not a good thing, the modern ideal that
"civilians" take NO responsibility for law and order is not an unmitigated
good thing. The notion that someone committing a crime may sue someone who
injures them while stopping it has many flaws as well.
... This is just one humble opinion. Collect the complete series.
Maryanne Bartlett
NS> My own arms: <shoot, I don't have the blazon handy - it's got a bear
NS> proper holding a trumpet Or, under a chief wavy Azure> = a bear herald
NS> in heaven = the herald of bear's heaven.
My Lord's arms have a pear in the charge and our mundane name is
Bartlett. His name is Loren (no pun here) Shadwydpere (shadow-pear, the
pear is on an eclipsed sun) O'Moerlande (say it slowly, he does mechanical
sheep!)
--Anja--
... Can't Win, Can't Break Even, Can't Quit
David W. James
>In article <940824104...@ss38.wg.icl.co.uk>,
>a...@wg.icl.co.uk (Tony Jebson) writes:
>
>>There is a rumour in the UK that the Norse Film and Pageant Society (aka
>>The Vikings!) trained the police in shield tactics. Look at any footage of
>>the UK riot police and you will see why: nice round shields, proper shield
>>wall, batons held at high guard. I've even seen them use a "boar-snout"
>>formation to break up a crowd! You never know, it might even be true ;)
>>This tale dates from when the police changed the style of their shields from
>>large rectangular to pretty standard size Viking round shields.
>I have been told very much the same story about the fighters in
>the Barony of the Steppes (Dallas, Tx., and environs) and the
>Dallas Police Dept. I have no idea at all about the truth of the
>tale, but that's a different matter.
>Michael Fenwick of Fotheringhay, O.L. (Mike Andrews) Namron, Ansteorra
It was Irving (where the Dallas Cowboys play) and circa AS 14. Ask
Lloyd about it the next time you see him, he would have been in on it.
Jonathon may have been as well. If the story is true, one of those two
should be a primary source, or be able to put you in contact with one;
I heard it second hand myself when I was in the Steppes in AS 15-18.
Kwellend-Njal
David Mann
>Why not use this as a starting point for a thread on arms that have
>interesting second meanings, both SCA and medieval? For instance, does anyone
>know the arms of the SCA branch Coeur d'Ennui?
OK, one that is already famous amoung the heralds (I've had my tee-shirt
recognized my heralds from the other side of the continent):
My barony (Settmour Swamp) has a device that goes something like:
Per Fess, Argent and Vert, a tower tilted to the dexter, counter-
charged sable and argent, in the chief a laurel wreath vert.
(anyone who speaks heraldese better tham me, feel free to correct)
A local lengend claims when this device was first submitted to
Brigantia (EK principle herald), he exclaimed "... and they told
me I was daft to build a castle in the swamp!"
In any case, our local official herald is titled "the Sinking Tower
Poursevant". And our baronial awards are all "towers", the medallions
are made to tilt. These are the silver tower (our "high" award),
our basic service award, the bronze tower; our A&S award, the ivory
tower (also known as the white castle, being for good taste - geo-
grphically local reference), and our wounded-fighter emblem, the
bloody tower.
--
In Service, or at least trying to be
Lord Emrys Cador; Barony of Settmor Swamp
###################################################################
### David Mann ### God is NOT omnicient ###
### MA...@DELPHI.COM ### - He could be, but He loves surprises ###
###################################################################
The above message represents the opinion of no-one but the
writer, not not neccessarily his, either.
David Mann
>The Health Inspector: (This is a variation on the chainmail stories.) One
>SCAdian type was a health inspector from someplace in New Jersey (or so the
>story goes). Anyway, this person never took off his chain mail (people
>sometimes wear it all day in order to get used to the weight, but this man
>took that to extremes by wearing it under his suit to work.). One day he was
>called upon to inspect a particularly bad restaurant and to shut it down. He
>arrived there with the appropriate papers and was just about to declare the
>place closed when the owner threw a meat cleaver at him. Imagine the owner's
>face when the meat cleaver bounced off the inspector's chest! Anyway, the
>owner got some time in jail and the inspector got a few bruises.
I know the health inspector in question: Andrew MacRobb (THE Andrew
MacRobb of much infamy for his puns). He told me the version
personally, and I trust him for the straight scoop (of course,
_I_ may misremember things). Apparently, he only wore chain
mail that day, because the cook was known to be rather crazy,
and he expected trouble was likely. Other than that, the
above version is as I remember him telling.
David Salley
>I've tracked back stories sufficiently well to pin down some original
>incidents. What I'd really like to see here are more first- or second-hand
>accounts. Did it happen to you? Did you hear the tale from the person to
>whom it happened (and do you trust that it was accurately told)?
A pair of tales heard from the gentle to whom they happened. We were
attending an event in Stormsport. My lady wife went outside for a cigarette,
when I went to join her, I heard the gentle telling these stories, alas,
I never got his name.
Background: he lives in an apartment that is laid out roughly circular,
that is, if you keep going from room to room you can end up back where you
started. The fire escape is outside the room with the stone fireplace.
He has a fairly extensive weapons collection.
One day he heard a scraping noise coming from the room. He peeked in and
saw a burglar on the fire escape trying to jimmy the window open with a
butter knife. He took a Japanese horseman's sword from his collection and
went upstairs to the apartment directly above his. He knocked on the door,
his neighbors opened it, and he said, "Hi, just passing through, I need to
use your fire escape." and stepped out their window onto the fire escape
one floor above the burglar. He snuck down, and assumed a kata position
directly behind the burglar who was so intent on jimmying the window that he
was oblivious to what was going on behind him. After waiting a minute, and
realizing the guy wasn't aware of him, he cleared his throat. *ahem!* The
guy turned around and raised his butter knife overhead as if to stab whoever
was behind him. He turned and found himself facing someone with three feet
of sharpened steel and a maniacal grin, "Yeah?". The guy dropped the butter
knife and fled down the fire escape, screaming. The fire escape was
counter-balanced so that nothing was at the first story level. You're
supposed to trip the lever and wait for the fire escape to unfold. This
isn't fast enough when you're being chased by a man with a sword. He
tripped the lever and ran out on the overhang projection. When he got past
a certain point, his own weight became part of the counterweights and the
thing operated at double speed, throwing him to the pavement, knocking him
unconscious. The scadian went back upstairs, put away the sword and called
the cops. The guy was still unconscious when they came to pick him up.
Second story; same apartment about two years later. He and his wife heard
voices coming from the room and realized someone had broken in. He quietly
telephoned the cops and then gave his wife a sword. He took a pair of
short axes and halfway around the apartment. He screamed "Kill!", hit the
lights with his elbow and he and his wife ran into the room screaming and
swinging weapons. The two burglars dropped their loot, turn and fled.
One ran into the fireplace and knocked himself out. The other dived through
the window onto the fire escape. The window was closed. When the police
arrived, they took the unconscious burglar with a lump on his head the
size of a hen's egg to the emergency room. The intern told them, "We'll
be with you in a few minutes, we got a guy in the other room that just went
through a window." One cop stays with Hen's-egg, the other goes back to
get the scadian. The cop and the scadian walk into the emergency room
and the burglar who's getting more than fifty stitches, takes one look
at the scadian and screams out, "B-B-B-battleaxe!". The cop said, "It's
nice when the victim can identify the perp, but it's wonderful when the
perp can identify the victim!" ;-)
- Dagonell
SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet : sal...@niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029
Movie Double Feature : "Vacation" and "Lost in America"
(contributed by Onami Yoshirou Kageyoshi)
no
> Being located in the center of a large city, we don't have
> many cows around, so we have to make do with Canada geese.
> One of our most profoundly weird grad students used to go
> out in the evenings tipping the ones snoozing on one leg.
> It annoyed them very much (but was much safer than picking
> on bovines).
>
> LinYinHo
And then there was the time I accidentally bumped into Her Grace, Duchess
Sedalia, while on the way to the privy...
;-)
(its a joke...)
Megan
==
In 1994: Linda Anfuso non moritur cujus fama vivat
In the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive
In the SCA, Inc: sustaining member # 33644
YYY YYY
m...@tinhat.stonemarche.org | YYYYY |
|____n____|
William James Macbeth Underhill
: FANJ> This is a systemic problem and the reason why the criminals are
: FANJ> winning the war. Kitty Genovese was the first in a long line of
: FANJ> incidents where bystanders refuse to render assistance for the reasons
: FANJ> described above.
: Back in the "Wild West" people -knew- that being a crook was dangerous,
: and ordinary people would oppose you (violently sometimes). Anyone might
: be armed. It's easier to be "good" when you cannot be secure in being bad.
: Although vigilante-ism is not a good thing, the modern ideal that
: "civilians" take NO responsibility for law and order is not an unmitigated
: good thing. The notion that someone committing a crime may sue someone who
: injures them while stopping it has many flaws as well.
:
Unfortunately, as I made mention of in another, related thread, there are
places (i.e., most anywhere in Canada) where you can be in bigger trouble
than the perp, if you resist with violence. For myself, I've long since
decided where my priorities lie; I'd far rather face the prospect of
doing hard time if I saved the life of a member of my family or preserved
the integrity of my home.
My tuppence,
William the Mariner
--
.----------------------------------------------------------------------.
| William Underhill | None of the opinions contained |-.
| SCA: William the Mariner, AoA | herein are official statements | |
| email: uf...@freenet.victoria.bc.ca | of the Canadian Armed Forces | |
| aa...@cfn.cs.dal.ca | or the Government of Canada. | |
| FIDO: William Underhill 1/340:42 | | |
`----------------------------------------------------------------------' |
| Azure, a cock rousant, on a chief embattled argent, an annulet sable |
`----------------------------------------------------------------------'
Francis A. Ney, Jr.
> Unfortunately, as I made mention of in another, related thread, there are
> places (i.e., most anywhere in Canada) where you can be in bigger trouble
> than the perp, if you resist with violence. For myself, I've long since
> decided where my priorities lie; I'd far rather face the prospect of
> doing hard time if I saved the life of a member of my family or preserved
> the integrity of my home.
Canada is not alone in this.
In Taxachusetts (Massachusetts), if a burglar enters your home, you are
required *by law* to flee (and abandon any family/friends you may have trapped
in there). Only if you are cornered with no means of escape can you employ
deadly force.
Fairfax County, Virginia may as well have this law, considering the attitudes
of both the police and the commonwealth's attorney (DA anywhere else). This I
know from personal experience on two separate occasions. I will not live in
Fairfax County, even if you paid me. BTW, commonwealth law on this matter
states that a man's home is his castle (a fact which Fairfax County officials
conveniently ignore).
I'm moving to West Virginia, where shooting a carjacker earns you a medal,
not six months of house arrest.
Frank Ney EMT-A N4ZHG LPVa NRA ILA GOA CCRKBA LEAA JPFO 'M-O-U-S-E'
--
"Apparently on New Texas, killing a politician was not _malum in se_, and was
_malum prohibitorum_ only to the extent that what the politician got was in
excess of what he deserved."
-H. Beam Piper, _Lone Star Planet/A Planet For Texans_
Joe Pepersack
William James Macbeth Underhill <aa...@cfn.cs.dal.ca> wrote:
[re. defending yourself against criminals with deadly force]
>Unfortunately, as I made mention of in another, related thread, there are
>places (i.e., most anywhere in Canada) where you can be in bigger trouble
>than the perp, if you resist with violence. For myself, I've long since
>decided where my priorities lie; I'd far rather face the prospect of
>doing hard time if I saved the life of a member of my family or preserved
>the integrity of my home.
I'm so glad I don't live in Canada. But I agree with the sentiment --
"It is better to be tried by twelve than carried by six"
Mark A. Cochran
[Bandwidthectomy]
>I'm moving to West Virginia, where shooting a carjacker earns you a medal,
>not six months of house arrest.
>
I believe the correct spelling is West-by-God Virginia, isn't it?
>Frank Ney EMT-A N4ZHG LPVa NRA ILA GOA CCRKBA LEAA JPFO 'M-O-U-S-E'
>--
>"Apparently on New Texas, killing a politician was not _malum in se_, and was
>_malum prohibitorum_ only to the extent that what the politician got was in
>excess of what he deserved."
> -H. Beam Piper, _Lone Star Planet/A Planet For Texans_
--
MKA: Mark A. Cochran, RN RRT CCRN CEN
SCA: Lord Edward Tremaine, called Snakebane -- Aarquelle, Outlands
"It's easy. Just hold the dull part and hit him with the sharp part."
- Don Alaric Greythorne of Glen Mor talking to a new fencer.
Brian Flynn
>>Why not use this as a starting point for a thread on arms that have
>>interesting second meanings, both SCA and medieval?
{humorous Swamp Castle story removed}
My barony of WINDMASTER's HILL, Atlantia was orginally eastern NC, the site of
the Wright brother's first flight. For those who might be history-impaired,
the hill/sand dune where this took place is Kitty Hawk. Surprisingly enough,
the device of the barony is a winged domestic cat - a cross between a kitty
and a hawk....
But then, that was in early AS something or another (9? 10?), when you could
easily get away with that sort of thing.
Uther
H L. Falls
Mark A. Cochran <mcoc...@nyx10.cs.du.edu> wrote:
>cro...@access.digex.net writes:
>
>[Bandwidthectomy]
>
>>I'm moving to West Virginia, where shooting a carjacker earns you a medal,
>>not six months of house arrest.
>>
>I believe the correct spelling is West-by-God Virginia, isn't it?
<snip...>
Actually it's more like _Wess-by-Gawd_... :-) :-)
--Landon the Virginian (not Landi the Lochlanach) :-)
Jill Mason
He is a martial artist and very capable of taking care of himself one
day as he was in Los Angeles or other large So Cal city he answered a
lady's cry for help comming from an alleywhen he went to investigate he
was jumped my two rather burly guys (the"lady" being a decoy) they
managed to throw him down in a corner of the alley, he reached back and
his hand rested on a pipe about 3 feet long... The story ends there but
according to the truth of the matter is that once he had the pipe he
managed to save himself his belongings and his car. Hope you enjoy this
bye Jill Blackhorse now of anTir.
kellogg
: A legend circulating around Caid a few years ago involves Sir Frewind
Another, more humorous legend has Freewind sitting at a bus stop,
in full armor, waiting to catch a bus to a tourney. A woman sitting at the
other end of the bench just keeps staring at him. Finally, Freewind starts
yelling into his wrist, "Jim, you were supposed to drop me in the 15th
century! When the hell am I? Get me out of here!".
Avenel Kellough
fnkl...@acfcluster.nyu.edu
>Suze Hammond (Suze.H...@f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:
>: FANJ> This is a systemic problem and the reason why the criminals are
>: FANJ> winning the war. Kitty Genovese was the first in a long line of
>: FANJ> incidents where bystanders refuse to render assistance for the reasons
>: FANJ> described above.
>
>: Back in the "Wild West" people -knew- that being a crook was dangerous,
>: and ordinary people would oppose you (violently sometimes). Anyone might
>: be armed. It's easier to be "good" when you cannot be secure in being bad.
>: Although vigilante-ism is not a good thing, the modern ideal that
>: "civilians" take NO responsibility for law and order is not an unmitigated
>: good thing. The notion that someone committing a crime may sue someone who
>: injures them while stopping it has many flaws as well.
Gee, the intro to the "Tombstone" movie said that crime in the Old-West was
worse than crime in any major city today.
Of course, I have no idea how usefull what they saID in a movie intro is, but
this is not an issue I'm planning to research anytime soon - and they seemed to
be trying for historicity in that one.
>:
>Unfortunately, as I made mention of in another, related thread, there are
>places (i.e., most anywhere in Canada) where you can be in bigger trouble
>than the perp, if you resist with violence. For myself, I've long since
>decided where my priorities lie; I'd far rather face the prospect of
>doing hard time if I saved the life of a member of my family or preserved
>the integrity of my home.
>
Self defence (and those similar actions lawyers would not consider to be so
while normal people do) is one thing.
Playing Bat-Man or Cowboy-county-Sheriff is another.
Nahum
William James Macbeth Underhill
a chief embattled argent, an annulet sable". This was created by now
Mistress Lyanna of Kerneough, Baroness Ruantallan, back when she was a
herald. In order to get the pun, you must understand that Ruantallan is
located in what is mundanely known as the province of Nova Scotia,
Canada; and that before the Navy got all energetic and numbered all the
jetties, they had letter designators. Thus, my device is "the bantam of
the `O' pier, eh?"
It was originally made up for the Brigantia's April Fool ILoI, but I
liked it so much...
John Husvar
(NAHUM'S Comment about self-defense vs. Bat-Man/ Cowboy-Sherrif wannabees
lost to a brain-dead editor...(Sigh)
The problem, it appears to me, is that too many moderns equate self-defense
with vigilantism-gone-bad. The original Vigilance Societies often began as
self/town/area-defense groups in the absence of "Government-Certified Law-
Enforcement" hirelings.
That a few of these groups devolved into virtual protection rackets speaks more
of the failure of their membership to adequately oversee them than it does of
any failure of the concept. (Witness the recent reports of Police corruption
in some large city departments)
When the people fail, through laziness _or_ excessive trust, to propersly
exercise their responsibility to preserve their rights and abdicate that
responsibility for oversight of their hired help (elected officials and
_their_ hirelings) they often get something far different from what they
originally designed.
The hazards of delegating power being what they are, you always get the
government you deserve or allow to develop.
Funny, bot often not at all humorous, how that works.
--
John Husvar, Art History, Kent State University (Yes, THAT Kent State :)
jhu...@mcs.kent.edu - john....@akron-info.com
Pres. IABAGWA (Int'l Association of Bad-Ass Gimps With Attitudes)
********************** Chet Vinh Hon Song Nhuc *************************
Mark A. Cochran
>Mark A. Cochran <mcoc...@nyx10.cs.du.edu> wrote:
>>cro...@access.digex.net writes:
>>
>>[Bandwidthectomy]
>>
>>>I'm moving to West Virginia, where shooting a carjacker earns you a medal,
>>>not six months of house arrest.
>>>
>>I believe the correct spelling is West-by-God Virginia, isn't it?
>
><snip...>
>
>Actually it's more like _Wess-by-Gawd_... :-) :-)
I beg your forgiveness for never having learned to type with an
accent.
Edward, doing well to type at all.
Suze Hammond
WJMU> From: aa...@cfn.cs.dal.ca (William James Macbeth Underhill)
> Suze Hammond (Suze.H...@f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:
: FANJ> This is a systemic problem and the reason why the criminals are
: FANJ> winning the war. Kitty Genovese was the first in a long line
: FANJ> of incidents where bystanders refuse to render assistance for
: FANJ> the reasons described above.
: Back in the "Wild West" people -knew- that being a crook was dangerous,
: and ordinary people would oppose you (violently sometimes). Anyone
: might be armed. It's easier to be "good" when you cannot be secure in
: being bad. Although vigilante-ism is not a good thing, the modern
: ideal that "civilians" take NO responsibility for law and order is not
: an unmitigated good thing. The notion that someone committing a crime
: may sue someone who injures them while stopping it has many flaws as
: well.
WJMU> Unfortunately, as I made mention of in another, related thread, there
WJMU> are places (i.e., most anywhere in Canada) where you can be in bigger
WJMU> trouble than the perp, if you resist with violence. For myself, I've
WJMU> long since decided where my priorities lie; I'd far rather face the
WJMU> prospect of doing hard time if I saved the life of a member of my
WJMU> family or preserved the integrity of my home.
WJMU> My tuppence,
WJMU> William the Mariner
Part of this is, quite baldly, a "turf battle". Professional police
started the notion that us "civilians" ought to leave it -all- to the
"pros" (themselves) and they, and unfortunately we, are now reaping the
"benefits". It was only a matter of time.
However good any specific policeman or unit may be, they simply cannot be
EVERYWHERE at once. (This is how the US Civil Rights Movement succeeded
BTW.) So we either hire nearly -everybody- to be police, or put every
third person in jail at tremendous monetary and social expense, or we go
back to letting honest "civilians" help keep order.
I like the consequences of that last option a lot more than the others.
The good thing is that the more of us who refuse to be cowed by the
present system, the sooner it will return to normal. There will be losses
along the way, sadly, and a few good people will go to jail. BUT, the
resulting hubbub will make sending people to jail for defending the Peace
a great political liability for those who championed this foolishness.
No politician can bear political liability for too long... Use their
weaknesses against them!
I might add a note on why I dislike "PC" so much. Much of it is very
Utopian, and a liability in Real Life (tm). Life is not now, nor has it
ever been so far as anyone can tell, -safe- for human beings. "Wishing"
will NOT "make it so". Acting as if it is so, anyway, is dangerous and
foolish, and you -will- get hurt if you try. Dreamers who cannot or will
not notice the realities around them are very likely to be victimized by
them, sooner or later. Although I'm no fan of automatic weapons, I am also
no fan of disarmament, primarily because it's never worked so far...
The Wild West was actually much safer than our brave new setup. Look up
the stats some time.
... If the sword fits, wear it.
William James Macbeth Underhill
: \<< William James Macbeth Underhill quoth unto All thusly >>/
...[clipped to save bandwidth and disk space]...
: WJMU> family or preserved the integrity of my home.
: WJMU> My tuppence,
: WJMU> William the Mariner
: Part of this is, quite baldly, a "turf battle". Professional police
: started the notion that us "civilians" ought to leave it -all- to the
: "pros" (themselves) and they, and unfortunately we, are now reaping the
: "benefits". It was only a matter of time.
I thank you, milady, for putting that word in quotes. I have yet to see
any benefits in facing the possibility of criminal prosecution and/or
civil suit if I should elect to defend my family/property/self.
: However good any specific policeman or unit may be, they simply cannot be
: EVERYWHERE at once. (This is how the US Civil Rights Movement succeeded
: BTW.) So we either hire nearly -everybody- to be police, or put every
: third person in jail at tremendous monetary and social expense, or we go
: back to letting honest "civilians" help keep order.
: I like the consequences of that last option a lot more than the others.
I like it a lot better also. One thing that a lot of police tend to
overlook is that there are military personnel out there (I'm one myself);
in the course of our training, we learn to use weapons _safely_, we learn
(some) unarmed combat and most of all, we learn *discipline*. I don't
know about the American armed forces, but the Canadian military also
gives training in `aid to civil power', which means that local police
forces can co-opt the assistance of any military units in the vicinity
should the need arise. I submit that, with a little more training in
legal procedure, and more frequent firearm and unarmed combat refresher
courses, the local military could well become a police auxiliary. I can
well see a situation where the local military could be resonsible not
necessarily so much for law enforcement perhaps, but crime deterent?
Maybe personal vehicles of military personnel could have distinctive
license plates, so that any potential malefactors in the vicinity would
realize "Hey, maybe there's no police in the area, but there's a
soldier/sailor/airman, and s/he can arrest me, too."
David Mann
>well see a situation where the local military could be resonsible not
>necessarily so much for law enforcement perhaps, but crime deterent?
>Maybe personal vehicles of military personnel could have distinctive
>license plates, so that any potential malefactors in the vicinity would
>realize "Hey, maybe there's no police in the area, but there's a
>soldier/sailor/airman, and s/he can arrest me, too."
except in emergencies (such as a riot in progress) or where there is _no_
civil authority (theOLD old west, or after a total collapse). The fact
that civil authority is strained in several areas of modern 'civilitation'
is a problem that needs to be addressed directly, not patched over by
military intravention.
The reasons that turning to the military for law enforcement is a bad idea,
IMHO, includes:
1) The military is trained for a different function. Cross-training
them for police duties as well might be possible, but then it *will*
lead to cases of combat-trained teenagers & other young troops,
taking orders from officers trained in war. Anyone remember Kent
state? How many different people screwed up there? In an urban -
no one knows who the bad guys are - environment, one screw-up is
enough. Look at the numbers of cops _trained for the streets_ end
up shooting each others. Good training (police _or_ military) is
a good ideal, but _not_ one you can count on. Let us at least not
invite mis-training (such as military personel treating a law-
enforcement situation as a military combat).
2) The military tends to be seen as an ocupation force by the have-nots
and the out-of-powers when they take the streets. In some areas, the
police have the same problem. The military is much more likely to
suffer resentment, etc. Take a look at Northern Ireland, where the
Brit troops ended up being stoned, etc., and engaging in heavy riot
action against the people they were largely there to protect (the non-
gurella catholic civilians). Yes, I know that was a politically and
historically charged case (do NOT send bombasts about the details, please),
but there is enough history and politics _anywhere_ to get rilled up
about, once one sides fields an army (litterally).
3) Military intrevention into civil affairs invariably weakens the
military. Look at the large number of Latin American countries with
politically powerful militaries that can't fight! The better performing
armies down there are usually divorced from politics. Note that the
best Argentinian performance in the Fauklands/Malvinas war was from the
relatively non-political air force; the highly political navy and army
were both embarrassed (the navy driven from the seas with little
combat, the army routed in engagement after engagement). Similar
examples are found elsewhere. It is not an accident that the best
militaries are those that are geared _only_ to figt other militaries.
--
By the way, the soldier/cop combination _is_ very period; the city
guards, the local lords men-at-arms, etc. were usually multi-purpose.
But then again, they usually didn't make very good cops, either :(.
Francis A. Ney, Jr.
> I like it a lot better also. One thing that a lot of police tend to
> overlook is that there are military personnel out there (I'm one myself);
> in the course of our training, we learn to use weapons _safely_, we learn
> (some) unarmed combat and most of all, we learn *discipline*. I don't
> know about the American armed forces, but the Canadian military also
> gives training in `aid to civil power', which means that local police
> forces can co-opt the assistance of any military units in the vicinity
> should the need arise. I submit that, with a little more training in
> legal procedure, and more frequent firearm and unarmed combat refresher
> courses, the local military could well become a police auxiliary. I can
> well see a situation where the local military could be resonsible not
> necessarily so much for law enforcement perhaps, but crime deterent?
> Maybe personal vehicles of military personnel could have distinctive
> license plates, so that any potential malefactors in the vicinity would
> realize "Hey, maybe there's no police in the area, but there's a
> soldier/sailor/airman, and s/he can arrest me, too."
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
No only is it a violation of Posse Comitatus, it is a violation in spirit of
the Third Amendment, the only one that *HASN'T* been abridged.
Take it back to citizen self-defense.
---
Frank Ney EMT-A N4ZHG LPVa NRA GOA CCRKBA LEAA JPFO 'M-O-U-S-E'
Don't Tread On Me
"Apparently on New Texas, killing a politician was not _malum in se_, and was
_malum prohibitorum_ only to the extent that what the politician got was in
excess of what he deserved."
H. Beam Piper, _Lone Star Planet_
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DDuperault
> I like it a lot better also. One thing that a lot of police tend to
> overlook is that there are military personnel out there (I'm one
myself);
> in the course of our training, we learn to use weapons _safely_, we
learn
> (some) unarmed combat and most of all, we learn *discipline*. I don't
> know about the American armed forces, but the Canadian military also
> gives training in `aid to civil power', which means that local police
> forces can co-opt the assistance of any military units in the vicinity
> should the need arise. I submit that, with a little more training in
> legal procedure, and more frequent firearm and unarmed combat refresher
> courses, the local military could well become a police auxiliary. I can
> well see a situation where the local military could be resonsible not
> necessarily so much for law enforcement perhaps, but crime deterent?
> Maybe personal vehicles of military personnel could have distinctive
> license plates, so that any potential malefactors in the vicinity would
> realize "Hey, maybe there's no police in the area, but there's a
> soldier/sailor/airman, and s/he can arrest me, too."
Yeah, sure.
And since there are so many criminals out there taking
unnecessary advantage of their rights, lets just suspend the Constitution,
too. Just for a little while, until we get things under control.
And while we're at it, lets force certain potentially
troublesome minority groups to wear distincive badges so police can
identify them. Say, large yellow stars.....
Dawn, since Avwye thinks oppressive
totalitarian dictatorships are good government.
William James Macbeth Underhill
: > I like it a lot better also. One thing that a lot of police tend to
...[bulk of my blurb deleted to save bandwidth]...
: > soldier/sailor/airman, and s/he can arrest me, too."
: Yeah, sure.
: And since there are so many criminals out there taking
: unnecessary advantage of their rights, lets just suspend the Constitution,
: too. Just for a little while, until we get things under control.
: And while we're at it, lets force certain potentially
: troublesome minority groups to wear distincive badges so police can
: identify them. Say, large yellow stars.....
: Dawn, since Avwye thinks oppressive
: totalitarian dictatorships are good government.
I simply wished to point out that there is a large body of personnel who,
with sone re-orientation in their training, could be put to good use as
police auxiliaries. Military personnel are supposed to defend their
country against internal and external threats; they're already being paid
what some consider to be an excessive amount (although I personnaly don't
see it that way, considering the crud I have to put up with as one of
those aforementioned military types). I don't know how the American
service oath goes, but if I recall correctly, there is a line reading
(more or less) "... against all enemies, domestic and foreign..." I
submit that criminals fall into the "domestic" category.
BTW, I think I object to the remark about troublesome minorities and
large identifying badges (such as yellow, six-pointed stars, etc.) I will
not advocate or condemn such suggestions, as that enters into the realm
of national policy, and despite the disclaimer in my .sig, I think it
would be well for me to refrain from expressing an opinion that might be
miscontrued as a statement being made with the blessing of the Canadian
Armed Forces.
My tuppence,
William the Mariner
(who is a sailor, and damn proud of it)