Has this happened to anyone elses group?
Sam Dzielski
there is anyway to really fix things or if I should look for another group
Lately the SCA has stood for the Society for Constant Alcohol... at least in
my group all they seem to do is drink... We go to events and sure you expect
there to be some drink but many there are underage and most get drunk to the
pass out or near pass out point....
is there a fix?
Secondly the behavior is quite lude...they pass around the cloven fruit and
before you know it everyone is doing tonsilectemies on each other...or a
glow rod...or anyone of a dozen and one things that is SUPPOSED to get a
peck on the cheek or a small kiss on the lips...most of these people are
over 30....I cant take my wife to these events, she isnt a prude but she is
a lady and finds that behavior disgusting....(so do I) and when ever there
is a woman in the group it seem all the men pounce on them.....
Also when this is combined with the drinking it starts many a fight with
wives and husbands.....
Is this normal fare or is this not the norm? I've only ever been with this
one group and I;m not 100% sure if this is par for the course or not..
Ygraineogf
>Well I was in an sca group but a few things happened and I wanted to know if
>there is anyway to really fix things or if I should look for another group
>
>Lately the SCA has stood for the Society for Constant Alcohol... at least in
>my group all they seem to do is drink... We go to events and sure you expect
>there to be some drink but many there are underage and most get drunk to the
>pass out or near pass out point....
>is there a fix?
Yes, if it is an overnight event, the parent or guardian of the underage
drinker can be told to leave, taking the child with them. (This only works if
the drinker is under the age of 18). Some people forget that we are bound by
real world legalities.
>Secondly the behavior is quite lude...they pass around the cloven fruit and
>before you know it everyone is doing tonsilectemies on each other...
(snip)
>Also when this is combined with the drinking it starts many a fight with
>wives and husbands.....
This is a delicate matter. Cloven fruit is used sometimes in my area (Calafia,
Caid) but I have always taught that the recipient has the option of offering
their hand, cheek or lips, but they can also decline the offer citing a
committment to another or a vow of chastity until they find someone.
>Is this normal fare or is this not the norm? I've only ever been with this
>one group and I;m not 100% sure if this is par for the course or not..
No, I don't think this is par for the course. Each group sets its own standard
and the members can decide if they are ready for a change. Maybe asking others
if they are tired of the situation will be the beginning of a change.
Good luck.
Ygraine
Calafia, Caid
Ble mae'r tafarn agosta?
http://www.mysurf.com/markt/WomensCamp/
LadyBea
Sam Dzielski <dr...@floodcity.net> wrote in message
news:7abaa8$5kr$1...@remarQ.com...
>Well I was in an sca group but a few things happened and I wanted to know
if
>there is anyway to really fix things or if I should look for another group
>
>Lately the SCA has stood for the Society for Constant Alcohol... at least
in
>my group all they seem to do is drink... We go to events and sure you
expect
>there to be some drink but many there are underage and most get drunk to
the
>pass out or near pass out point....
>is there a fix?
>
>glow rod...or anyone of a dozen and one things that is SUPPOSED to get a
>peck on the cheek or a small kiss on the lips...most of these people are
>over 30....I cant take my wife to these events, she isnt a prude but she is
>a lady and finds that behavior disgusting....(so do I) and when ever there
>is a woman in the group it seem all the men pounce on them.....
>wives and husbands.....
>
LadyBea
Dear Sir, you do not say how long you have been with this group, but let me
say after 18 years with the SCA I would say this is the exception not the
rule. Over the years I have seen things like this and known of other like
things. The actions of one group (however large or small) by no means
reflects the entire organization. If I were in your position I think I
would look for a group that was more to your way of seeing/doing things, one
that I would feel comforatabel with and not hesitate to take any of my
family members to, even if this means traveling a longer distance.
With the right people and atmosphere the SCA is a fun filled place to be
with with friends. It offers a lot for younger folks too. If there are
things going on that you think should not be with the younger set, go to
your Seneschal, Baron, Prince, King or whatever, go as high as needed to get
someone to look at this and perhaps put a stop to before it jeopardizes the
whole group in that area (mundanely). I remember a similar situation many
years ago that was dealt with by a number of mothers banding together and
speaking strongly with the King. The situation was handled successfully
forthwith.
Above all, don't give up, we (SCA) are not perfect, we have our bad apples
just as any mundane organization or even neighborhood does. But, we know
who they are and deal with it or let them revel in their own muck. Only by
going to different events and perhaps seeing other groups can you see that
the majority of people in the SCA are good law abiding, serious people
dedicated to research, education and last but not at all least getting
together and having a good time with their friends, just as you would
mundanely throw a bar-b-que or picnic.
Good luck in finding a group or persons that feel as you do, by all means
don't give up too soon, if you do I feel you will be missing a thing that
would enrich your life.
Lady Beatrice Morgana
Craig Levin
>Lately the SCA has stood for the Society for Constant Alcohol... at least in
>my group all they seem to do is drink... We go to events and sure you expect
>there to be some drink but many there are underage and most get drunk to the
>pass out or near pass out point....
>is there a fix?
Yoiks! Yes, there is. I'd let the autocrat know that underage
driking was going on. It's against the law, and that's a fact. By
and large, though, the events I've attended in my nine years in
the SCA have not been arenas for binge drinking, and I've resided
in three different places: Illiton (in the Ill. cornfields),
Dernehealde (in Appalachian Ohio), and Storvik (in southern
Maryland and DC).
>Secondly the behavior is quite lude...they pass around the cloven fruit and
>before you know it everyone is doing tonsilectemies on each other...or a
>glow rod...or anyone of a dozen and one things that is SUPPOSED to get a
>peck on the cheek or a small kiss on the lips...most of these people are
>over 30....I cant take my wife to these events, she isnt a prude but she is
>a lady and finds that behavior disgusting....(so do I) and when ever there
>is a woman in the group it seem all the men pounce on them.....
>Also when this is combined with the drinking it starts many a fight with
>wives and husbands.....
That's shameful, and not the behavior of gentlefolk in my SCA
acquaintance. Sounds like your particular group's undergoing some
kind of meltdown.
In Service,
Dom Pedro de Alcazar
Barony of Storvik, Atlantia
Drakkar Pursuivant
Argent, a tower purpure between 3 bunches of grapes proper
--
http://pages.ripco.com:8080/~clevin/index.html
cle...@ripco.com
Craig Levin
David M. Razler
| Well I was in an sca group but a few things happened and I wanted to know if
| there is anyway to really fix things or if I should look for another group
|
| Lately the SCA has stood for the Society for Constant Alcohol... at least in
| my group all they seem to do is drink... We go to events and sure you expect
| there to be some drink but many there are underage and most get drunk to the
| pass out or near pass out point....
| is there a fix?
|
| Secondly the behavior is quite lude...they pass around the cloven fruit and
| before you know it everyone is doing tonsilectemies on each other...or a
| glow rod...or anyone of a dozen and one things that is SUPPOSED to get a
| peck on the cheek or a small kiss on the lips...most of these people are
| over 30....I cant take my wife to these events, she isnt a prude but she is
| a lady and finds that behavior disgusting....(so do I) and when ever there
| is a woman in the group it seem all the men pounce on them.....
| Also when this is combined with the drinking it starts many a fight with
| wives and husbands.....
|
| Is this normal fare or is this not the norm? I've only ever been with this
| one group and I;m not 100% sure if this is par for the course or not..
|
There are members ranging from sodden to bone-dry and everything in between.
1) Underage drinking at events is risky to anyone either consuming or drinking
the alcohol - it's a bad law, but it is the law, and threats can be invoked if
the case is as severe as you say ... which I doubt, based on my experience..
2) As for the lewd<cq/stet> behavior, and your problem with drunkeness (unless
it is as universal as you say), I humbly would advise tolerance and allowing
consentling adults to do as they please in public, if all that is involved is
a little tongue chewing. Such behavior rarely, if ever, starts fights because
the people involved generally know each other quite well and do not mind their
spouse's spiciness. Harmless flirting is period in many places/times.
The easiest fix may be to either find another group or depart if so prudish
you be.
The more difficult, but rewarding path is tolerance and acceptance of those
who behave differently from the way you do. I notice that you do not
personally seem to have been affected in any way except by the sight of things
you do not personally approve of.
david/Aleksandr
David M. Razler
david....@worldnet.att.net
Charles Buckley
Ygraineogf <ygrai...@aol.com> wrote:
>>"Sam Dzielski" <dr...@floodcity.net>
>
>>Well I was in an sca group but a few things happened and I wanted to know if
>>there is anyway to really fix things or if I should look for another group
>>
>>Lately the SCA has stood for the Society for Constant Alcohol... at least in
>>my group all they seem to do is drink... We go to events and sure you expect
>>there to be some drink but many there are underage and most get drunk to the
>>pass out or near pass out point....
>>is there a fix?
>
>drinker can be told to leave, taking the child with them. (This only works if
>the drinker is under the age of 18). Some people forget that we are bound by
>real world legalities.
>
Talk to the local seneschal and autocrat for the event. Let them
know your concerns. The local group here has had similar problems at
times, and talking to the people who run the thing usually helps.
The only real problem would be if the autocrat or seneschal condone
this sort of behavior.
I personally would ask the parent/guardian of the minor to leave. I
would also ask the adult who served them alcohol to leave also. I
personally consider the adult giving them alcohol to be more culpable
than the minor in these instances. The minors are doing what minors
do (trying to get away with as much as possible). The adults should
know better.
>>Secondly the behavior is quite lude...they pass around the cloven fruit and
>>before you know it everyone is doing tonsilectemies on each other...
>
>(snip)
>
>>Also when this is combined with the drinking it starts many a fight with
>>wives and husbands.....
>
>This is a delicate matter. Cloven fruit is used sometimes in my area (Calafia,
>Caid) but I have always taught that the recipient has the option of offering
>their hand, cheek or lips, but they can also decline the offer citing a
>committment to another or a vow of chastity until they find someone.
>
I have seen it taken to an extreme once. It was a several day event.
One the first day this sort of behavior was seen. It annoyed several of
us in the camp. (It *really* had to be out-of-hand when several of the
local gypsies, who generally play this game, didn't want to see another
fruit). We filled a bucket of water the second day and I had some
rattan sticks I had bought. Whenever someone would bring out a fruit,
we would point at the bucket and inform them that we would cool them
off should they try to pass it around. We would also field-test the
rattan on the fruit. It was a bit extreme, but it worked. The night
rapidly devolved into people seeing how far they could hit an orange.
Generally, I have seen various levels of the same behavior the original
poster described at times during the SCA. It can usually be addressed
by speaking to the local officers.
--
Silly Customer, you can not hurt a Twinkee! Apu Nahasapeemapetilon
Lord Xbrew
It has seem to have gotten that way in the east, and Pennsic, well nuff said
there.
>>Secondly the behavior is quite lude...they pass around the cloven fruit
Pennsic doesnt even have the fruit!!!
> Sounds like your particular group's undergoing some
>kind of meltdown.
This is a nice thought, however I have seen this everywhere, its not a
particular group, its a particular group of people.
I know I have been guilty of coming on too strong in the flirtation area,
with no offense intended or even lude referrences, and have offended a more
delicate lady. where in here husband did mention it to me and did further make
apology (in this case) to me for his wifes reaction. I was (this time) being
proper in my address and speach, it was just the inflection put forth more than
the lady could deal with.
I am not saying this is the case everytime. But I agree that we as a
society are going that way.
Fourevare in Period
!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~TO RESPOND USE THISADDRESS~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~
Xaviar_The...@yahoo.com
marad...@my-dejanews.com
>
[ . . . ]
>
> Secondly the behavior is quite lude...
This is characteristic of some groups but certainly not the norm. every
group is different. In my area, there are many non-drinkers and I have been
to all-night parties where no one consumed more than one bottle of beer.
Also, regardless of the inclination of the locals, there are very strict
liquor laws here (MA) and a handful of dry counties, so 80% of local events
are dry. But I have spoken to people in other areas who have said they
refuse to attend dry events in their area because they were offended the
autocrats didn't make the effort to ensure a good time by all - that's how
prevalent wet events were by them.
The cloven fruit/physical contact thing is, as someone here already stated, a
delicate subject. Around here they are quite common but things tend to go in
waves year by year. There are a few events flooded with them as a matter of
tradition. For the others it rises until enough people are sufficently
disgusted, then the backlash calms things down, then someone takes them to an
event and it gets popular again. However I'd like to think that chivalry
always comes first. When briefing newbies before their first even, most
people I know explain what a cloven fruit is, what the various local ways of
accepting one are, and a very stern advisement (for both males and females)
that "no means no", regardless of which end of the fruit you are on.
As to your Lady attracting men like moths to a flame - I'd say any group, and
there are many, that have liberal views on sexual behavior, are going to have
their downside. There are lonely pathetic people no matter where you go,
from SCA and sci-fi conventions to Universities and business conferences. I
don't think theres much to be done there accept your Lady should assert
HERSELF.
If your SCA group is as bad as you say then certainly seek out another group,
but don't think all the SCA is like that. However remeber the merits of
setting a good example! I am willing to bet that 50% of the bad behavior you
witness is pure peer pressure. Others in the group might not be thrilled
with it either, but "everybody else is doing it". If you loudly and proudly
stand up and say "I don't need to get sloggered to have a good time at
events" or "I can behave like a gentleman in public" you might be surprised
how many people follow your example!
Sabine Berard
----
finger sab...@carolingia.org|more
It's mine! www.silverdragon.org
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Sam Dzielski
drinking
>the alcohol - it's a bad law, but it is the law, and threats can be invoked
if
>the case is as severe as you say ... which I doubt, based on my
experience..
Well it is as severe as I say and there are others in the group who share
my opinion, they dont want to get kicked out of the campground we
borrow...but the senchal approves of this so on it goes....
also see lord xbrew's comments about the eastern part....
>2) As for the lewd<cq/stet> behavior, and your problem with drunkeness
(unless
I have no problem with drunkeness but when it is EVERY event it kinda makes
you want to say hey this was fun in highschool
but lets all grow up a bit...if all I wanted to do was drink I would have
gone to a bar, lets do something insead of sitting on our asses and
drinking...
>it is as universal as you say), I humbly would advise tolerance and
allowing
>consentling adults to do as they please in public, if all that is involved
is
>a little tongue chewing.
As I said it isnt just tongue chewing there tends to be groping... unwanted
groping at times.... and its annoying many people, but those in power say aw
they are just flirting... and let it go on.... the one girl in particular
thereatened to sue the group for her being touched in a way she didn't
like....with some persuasion she was talked out of it......
If you had a wife who kissed (deep long hard passionate kisses mind you with
groping) every man in camp would you call it spiciness? or being slutty?
>the people involved generally know each other quite well and do not mind
their
>spouse's spiciness. Harmless flirting is period in many places/times.
This isnt harmless though one married couple already broke up because of
this he had some "harmless flirting" behind a tree....
>The easiest fix may be to either find another group or depart if so prudish
>you be.
I'm not a prude I just think there is a line between flirting and being
slutty/cheating, they are crossing the line too often....much to many
members dismay...
>The more difficult, but rewarding path is tolerance and acceptance of those
>who behave differently from the way you do. I notice that you do not
>personally seem to have been affected in any way except by the sight of
things
>you do not personally approve of.
Ok apprearently you arent listening.... I have been affected by it, my wife
wont go with me to SCA events any more because shes afraid of rape (although
I doubt it would ever go that far.)
I am tolerant of other people....for cripes sake I'm good friends with some
bluefeathers....I'm not judging people..... I like to get drunk from time to
time but not every event.....I like to re enact more things than a pub
scene.....or a brothel....
mittle
Greetings from Arval!
> >>Lately the SCA has stood for the Society for Constant Alcohol.
>
> It has seem to have gotten that way in the east, and Pennsic, well nuff said
> there.
That is nonsense. There are very few generalizations that are true across
the entire East Kingdom, and this is certainly not one of them. Pennsic
varies radically from one camp to the next, if not from one tent to the
next.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mit...@panix.com
Cadfan ap Morgan
No, heavy drinking at SCA events is NOT the norm--but it's a phase some groups
do go through. What eventually happens is that either the drunks burn out and
go away, or the other members get tired of the drunks and go away, leaving the
drunks to do all the work; *then* they burn out--or sober up.
But in the short term: underage drinking is ILLEGAL and needs to be stomped like
a cockroach if it occurs. I think your officers and the other established
members of your group need to present a united front against it and come down
hard on it. If it's these people who are the problem, then in my
*personal*opinion* (not to be taken as official advice or revealed wisdom, and
with the requisite amount of salt) you have three choices; raise the
issue--*discreetly*--with kingdom/principality officers; just not play with your
local group until they straighten up, or both.
As to the cloved fruit stuff--again, this is a phase. The problem goes away
when the novelty wears off. It helps if the women of the group take the united
stand that cloved fruit must be carefully made and discreetly offered if they're
to have a chance of being accepted. Heh! You can even take some initiative
yourself on this: make a cloved orange decorated with colored ribbon, fake gold
beads and fake pearls (all easily obtainable at craft/hobby stores or cloth
shops). Get it going around at the next event, if only by leaving it on a
table--or better yet, by presenting it publicly and with great courtesy to your
wife (the smooching you can do later--nice thing about being married ;o). When
other folks get a look at it, they--especially the ladies--will likely raise
their standards for what they will accept. When the men realize this, they'll
start putting more care into the cloved fruit they make, which means they'll
make fewer of them, and hence offer them more deliberately.
And the nice thing is, these can be kept and used as pomanders--a very period
accessory!
Bear in mind that these problems DO get better with time--I've seen it happen.
The objective is to keep the problem from destroying the group or getting it
into trouble with the law in the meantime.
Just my 2 cents (plain)
--Cadfan
Sam Dzielski wrote:
> Well I was in an sca group but a few things happened and I wanted to know if
> there is anyway to really fix things or if I should look for another group
>
> Lately the SCA has stood for the Society for Constant Alcohol... at least in
> my group all they seem to do is drink... We go to events and sure you expect
> there to be some drink but many there are underage and most get drunk to the
> pass out or near pass out point....
> is there a fix?
>
> Secondly the behavior is quite lude...they pass around the cloven fruit and
> before you know it everyone is doing tonsilectemies on each other...or a
> glow rod...or anyone of a dozen and one things that is SUPPOSED to get a
> peck on the cheek or a small kiss on the lips...most of these people are
> over 30....I cant take my wife to these events, she isnt a prude but she is
> a lady and finds that behavior disgusting....(so do I) and when ever there
> is a woman in the group it seem all the men pounce on them.....
> Also when this is combined with the drinking it starts many a fight with
> wives and husbands.....
>
Tanya Guptill
I will probably get flamed for this, but I wanted to tell you that I
have been in a similar situation. I am a married lady whose husband
doesn't play SCA anymore, so I often travel with a female friend. I
don't consider myself a prude at all, enjoy a beer, and a lively bardic,
and love to meet new people. I've sometimes camped with friends of
friends, whose idea of a good time was getting blasted and 'chasing
wenches'. These poor guys confused inappropriate comments to women as
compliments, and thought chivalry consisted of escorting 'their women'
to the biffies at night. Some women think a men making lewd comments at
her IS a compliment.
The sexual innuendo, puking, and boring conversations get old very
quickly. I laughed off what I could, and put my foot down where I had
to. If things are illegal (underage drinking, groping without
permission) bring it to the proper people's attention--start with the
people doing it. If the behavior is legal but bothers you, change the
group of people with whom you camp or socialize. You will have a better
time with people with your own interests and tastes anyway. I don't
know how small your SCA group is, but I would be suspicious that there
are other people who share your style.
Best luck, and Regards,
Mira Silverlock McKendrick
GotheWulfe
>>1) Underage drinking at events is risky to anyone either consuming or
>drinking
>>the alcohol - it's a bad law, but it is the law, and threats can be invoked
>if
>>the case is as severe as you say ... which I doubt, based on my
>experience..
>
>
>Well it is as severe as I say and there are others in the group who share
>my opinion, they dont want to get kicked out of the campground we
>borrow...but the senchal approves of this so on it goes....
>
>
Then have the Senachal replaced....if there are enough of you that, as you
say, have had enough, then do something about it.
>also see lord xbrew's comments about the eastern part....
As was said before...sweeping generalizations are very rarely accurate
>
>I have no problem with drunkeness but when it is EVERY event it kinda makes
>you want to say hey this was fun in highschool
>but lets all grow up a bit...if all I wanted to do was drink I would have
>gone to a bar, lets do something insead of sitting on our asses and
>drinking...
>
>
Well....YOU could always come up with a few ideas for things to do other then
drink...and let those that wish to do so drink all they want....there is
nothing that says that all of you have to do the same thing at the same time.
>
>If you had a wife who kissed (deep long hard passionate kisses mind you with
>groping) every man in camp would you call it spiciness? or being slutty?
>
>
Kissing and groping are hardly reasons for calling a lasy a slut.....no matter
how passionate it may get......if the lady <or lord> in question happens to be
married then it is a matter for them and their mate to decide just "how far"
things are allowed to go.
>
>This isnt harmless though one married couple already broke up because of
>this he had some "harmless flirting" behind a tree....
Well....if it was behind a tree and I am taking your inflection correctly, then
it was hardly "harmless flirting"....it fall into a completely different area.
Last time I checked there was no penetration involved in "flirting" no matter
how risque. <<sarchasm fully intended>>
And reguardless....it is not your job to protect everyone else
marriage/relationship....the troubles between a Lady and her Lord are just
that...between them...they dont need your protection.
>
>I'm not a prude I just think there is a line between flirting and being
>slutty/cheating, they are crossing the line too often....much to many
>members dismay...
>
>
IM confused here.....first you say that everyone in your group acts like this,
giving the impression that you, and perhapts a few others, are the only ones
that do not... and then you mention "many members"......which is it? If there
are a great many of you that feel this way, then it is MUCH easier to do
something about it.
>
>>The more difficult, but rewarding path is tolerance and acceptance of those
>>who behave differently from the way you do. I notice that you do not
>>personally seem to have been affected in any way except by the sight of
>things
>>you do not personally approve of.
>
>Ok apprearently you arent listening.... I have been affected by it, my wife
>wont go with me to SCA events any more because shes afraid of rape (although
>I doubt it would ever go that far.)
If things are truely that bad, then I am left to wonder why you havent gone to
your Baron/Duke <insert proper title here> and let him/her know about it and
asked for soemthing to be done....and well..if he is part of the problem..then
there is always the King or Queen
>I am tolerant of other people....for cripes sake I'm good friends with some
>bluefeathers....I'm not judging people.....
As an aside....I always wonder about people that say things like this......Many
times I have heard someone say "Im not intolerant/prejudiced/ect...some of my
best friends are black/gay/whatever" yet when you truly talk to them, you find
out just how INtolerant they can be to anything that they dont personally
approve of. not nessicarly meaning you....its just an obervation of mine.
>. I like to get drunk from time to
>time but not every event.....I like to re enact more things than a pub
>scene.....or a brothel....
then as I said before...do something about it.....volenteer to be
Autocrat....then you DO have control to some extant.....it may be easier to get
someone else to solve the problem for you, but at the same time, you cant go
running to them every time it starts up again....and if they are truely as bad
as you say...it will. And..if none of the suggestions that any of us have come
up with work, the I have to go witht eh concensus on this one....perhapts it
would be better if you simply found another group.
Shade and Sweet Water, Dear Gentles All.....
Antonio DeLupo de Fierenza,
Seer and Chief Advisor of the
Matriarch Francesca deFierenza
<<P.S......I do apologise for any offence given by my words to any of the
ladies present :) >>
Carolyn Carter
Sam Dzielski wrote in message <7abaa8$5kr$1...@remarQ.com>...
>(snipping other concerns)
>Secondly the behavior is quite lude...they pass around the cloven fruit and
>before you know it everyone is doing tonsilectemies on each other
....My good husband showed me the perfect answer to the cloven fruit
question. When offered, take it, say "thank you very much", then peel and
eat it. All with perfect wide-eyed innocence.
Kate O'Guinn
An Tir
Tracyarts
>but lets all grow up a bit...if all I wanted to do was drink I would have
>gone to a bar, lets do something insead of sitting on our asses and
>drinking...
. I drink very little. Not because I have a problem with alcohol in general,
but because of medecations I take I CANNOT drink. I have had alcohol "pushed"
on me at times and had to really get aggressive in the "thank you no..."
department before. I have seen clearly underage kids drunk at events before,
but I also saw the people in charge crack down on it and take action. Not all
people in the SCA "have" to drink all the time. Find a group to hang around
with that does not.
>As I said it isnt just tongue chewing there tends to be groping... unwanted
>groping at times.... and its annoying many people, but those in power say aw
>they are just flirting... and let it go on..
I have had one experience at an event where a man did not understand that "NO,
means NO!". After a hard slap to the face with fingernail raking and a knee to
the groin, he realized that I really meant "NO". I told some other people
about it, and got: "Well, that is how he is, you should not have went to talk
to him alone". Well, that is blaming the victim and abhorrent. Before that I
had NEVER been uncomfortable sitting outside a man's campsite and sharing a
conversation. There is NO excuse for forcing onneself on another person.
>If you had a wife who kissed (deep long hard passionate kisses mind you with
>groping) every man in camp would you call it spiciness? or being slutty?
I think that is left between the Wife and Husband in question. In MY marraige
anything more than a hand kiss or a peck on the cheek would go beyond our
fidelity commitment. But there are ALL kinds of marraiges out there.
>>spouse's spiciness. Harmless flirting is period in many places/times.
"Harmless" flirting has to be defined by BOTH people in the
marraige/relationship. And flirting can be period, although I don't know to
what extent flirting was done in period. But flirting definately adds to "the
game".
>This isnt harmless though one married couple already broke up because of
>this he had some "harmless flirting" behind a tree....
See, there are always going to be people who for whatever reason break their
vows to each other and pitch commitment and relationships down the crapper.
But you cannot say it is a "SCA-thing". That man could have just as easily
gotten his illicit nookie on his lunch break, or while his S.O. was away at a
relative's house.
>I'm not a prude I just think there is a line between flirting and being
>slutty/cheating, they are crossing the line too often....much to many
>members dismay...
I'm not a prude my ANY means, but I DO have a strong commitment to my
monogamous marraige. I would not cheat in ANY setting, be it SCA, or whatever.
It is not just SCA. I belong to other social organizations, and there is this
behavior everywhere. You cannot generalize. I make it CLEAR that while I may
flirt, that is as far as it is going. Some marraiges may play by different
rules, and that is fine, I respect their choices. But they have to respect
MINE in turn.
I was really upset the night at an event I was called a "greedy bitch" and
"uptight cow" because I would not "share" my S.O. with a particular lady who
was attracted to him. I did not insult her in any way, why did she attack me?
If I respect YOUR choice, you damn well better respect MINE.
>Ok apprearently you arent listening.... I have been affected by it, my wife
>wont go with me to SCA events any more because shes afraid of rape
I only day-tripped events until I was involved in a relationship and had
somebody there with me. I still don't like to go off at night by myself at an
event. I even make somebody come with me to the privvy after dark. I know
that the vast majority of men at the event are NOT going to attack me. But
from one bad experience, I know the possibility is there. But, then again,
that possibility exists anywhere, not just at an SCA event.
My big gripe is that I am VERY tolerant of other's lifestyles. But I have at
times not received the same respect. Just because I choose to do differently
than you does not mean I disapprove of you. And When I say "No thank you", it
is not anything against your character, it is just my choice not to engage in
that behavior.
I have had only a few experiences in SCA where I was snubbed because I would
not engage in "X" behavior with a person/group. Most people are a bit more
tolerant.
My advice, is to find a group in the SCA to hang around with that behaves
according to YOUR standards. There are all kinds of people in this
organization.
I can guarantee you you can find at least one couple to go to events with who
share your boundaries.
Tracy
Sally Burnell
> Lately the SCA has stood for the Society for Constant Alcohol... at least
in
> my group all they seem to do is drink... We go to events and sure you
expect
> there to be some drink but many there are underage and most get drunk to
the
> pass out or near pass out point....
> is there a fix?
Yes, for this problem, there is. Get sites that are *BONE DRY*. Sure,
you're going to have drinking, but not until later in the evening during
the post-revel, which is hopefully at someone's private residence. You can
offer to have an "alcohol-free" post for those who don't wish to engage in
drinking or to encourage those underage to attend as well. Underage
drinking can get the SCA into a lot of trouble if someone gets caught. Find
ways to encourage those too young to drink to find other diversions until
such time as they are of a legal age to consume alcohol. Encourage people
to card at post-revels if they are going to offer alcohol. Remind everyone
what trouble the SCA could get into if someone underage gets drunk, gets
behind the wheel of a car and has an accident.
> Secondly the behavior is quite lude...they pass around the cloven fruit
and
> before you know it everyone is doing tonsilectemies on each other...or a
> glow rod...or anyone of a dozen and one things that is SUPPOSED to get a
> peck on the cheek or a small kiss on the lips...most of these people are
> over 30....I cant take my wife to these events, she isnt a prude but she
is
> a lady and finds that behavior disgusting....(so do I) and when ever
there
> is a woman in the group it seem all the men pounce on them.....
> Also when this is combined with the drinking it starts many a fight with
> wives and husbands.....
This is a harder one to answer. Sounds like the group you went to were a
bunch of party-hardies. Where I find no harm in gentle flirting in the
manner of Courtly Love, I do not, as a single unmarried woman, wish to be
pounced on by men whenever I go to an event or postrevel. Perhaps it takes
bringing this to someone's attention. If the women in question don't invite
such behaviour, then it can be seen as a form of assault. However, if they
do condone it and invite it, well, I'm not sure that anything can be done
about it. You can try to find people who are like-minded to you, hang with
them and leave the party-hardies to their behaviour. I would think that
sooner or later they would tire of it. I am lucky in that the people in my
group are mature enough to be beyond such behaviour. I hope you can find
people in your SCA group who are above the above mentioned behaviour and
wish instead to have an enjoyable event without the need for alcohol or
resorting to flirting taken to extremes to where it causes tension between
married couples.
> Is this normal fare or is this not the norm? I've only ever been with
this
> one group and I;m not 100% sure if this is par for the course or not..
Not in my experience, and I have been in the SCA now for 21½ years.
Granted, it has all been with the same group, but I have traveled through
many Kingdoms, attended many events, and have seen mostly very Chivalrous
and Honourable behaviour most of the places I have gone. I think it is safe
to say that no, it is most decidedly *not* par for the course, at least not
in my experience. Your mileage may vary..............
YIS,
Lady Saradwen Ariandalen
Marche of Gwyntarian
(Akron/Kent, OH)
Midrealm
Chas
> "Sam Dzielski" <dr...@floodcity.net> wrote:
> | Lately the SCA has stood for the Society for Constant Alcohol... at least in
> | my group all they seem to do is drink... We go to events and sure you expect
In our group (A non SCA re-enactment group) we felt we had to make clear
the official stance on drinking/inappropriate behavior. We felt we
didn't want to make ourselves a "dry" group, but we get paid to appear
at various Living History events, so we have semi- "professional"
reputation to protect.
The policy I helped write while on our Board of Directors is below,
Personally I've never witnessed these problems at the few SCA events
I've attended. As only an occasional SCA attendee, I do NOT presume to
argue such a policy is needed.
-I just thought it would be constructive to show a sample policy
currently in practice in another group. If you have questions about it,
feel free to reply to me off the NG.
Inappropriate Behavior
If a member appears to be "impaired" during public hours,
whether due to health reasons, or chemical intoxication of any sort, the
matter is to be reported immediately to the On-site Staff. The Staff
will attempt to determine whether the person is indeed impaired. If so,
the member will be required to stand down from active participation at
the event until they have recovered, and may be asked to leave the event
when they are capable of safe travel.
Any member who becomes impaired repeatedly will be subject to
the general disciplinary process. Members who repeatedly become
chemically impaired during non-public hours to the point of being a
public nuisance, and/or unable to function by opening hours the next
morning may be subject to the same process.
General Disciplinary Guidelines.
If a member engages in behavior which the Staff, or Board of
Directors feels is inappropriate, the Board of Directors will give the
member an oral reprimand on the first occurance, a written reprimand on
the second occurance, and on the third occurance, the member will be
required to step down from active participation for the remainder of the
season, or may have their membership suspended in accordance with the
Bylaws. The Board may omit the first, or second reprimands if they feel
the behavior warrents more stringent action.
Chas
Andy S.
> Milord--
>
> But in the short term: underage drinking is ILLEGAL and needs to be stomped like
> a cockroach if it occurs. I think your officers and the other established
> members of your group need to present a united front against it and come down
> hard on it. If it's these people who are the problem, then in my
> *personal*opinion* (not to be taken as official advice or revealed wisdom, and
> with the requisite amount of salt) you have three choices; raise the
> issue--*discreetly*--with kingdom/principality officers; just not play with your
> local group until they straighten up, or both.
>
While I personally see nothing wrong with sampling (I said sampling, mind you) the
local brewers' latest efforts, underage drinking of any sort is by definition
against the law.
<Gazes into crystal ball>
I see a sanctioned SCA event in the near future... An unsupervised youth drinking
to excess... The youth dies of alcohol poisoning... The SCA corporation is sued...
An out of court settlement... Formal restrictions against drinking at events are
codified...
<snaps out of his trance>
Whoa... let's not go there...
Be Responsible! Both for yourselves (drunkenness is *never* an acceptable excuse for
anything but throwing up) and for your underage minors if you bring them to (or
allow them to attend in your absence) SCA events.
<hops down from his soap kettle... Ow, that's hot!>
- Safe Journeys!
- Andy S.
--
Nearly all men can stand adversity,
but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
- Abraham Lincoln
Marian
Cadfan ap Morgan <peter....@pdq.net> wrote:
> to have a chance of being accepted. Heh! You can even take some initiative
> yourself on this: make a cloved orange decorated with colored ribbon, fake gold
> beads and fake pearls (all easily obtainable at craft/hobby stores or cloth
> shops). Get it going around at the next event, if only by leaving it on a
> table--or better yet, by presenting it publicly and with great courtesy to your
> wife (the smooching you can do later--nice thing about being married ;o). When
> other folks get a look at it, they--especially the ladies--will likely raise
> their standards for what they will accept. When the men realize this, they'll
> start putting more care into the cloved fruit they make, which means they'll
> make fewer of them, and hence offer them more deliberately.
>
> And the nice thing is, these can be kept and used as pomanders--a very period
> accessory!
Only if you don't pull the cloves out. Trust me on this, cloven fruit as
decoration is a winter tradition in my family, has been for as long as I can
remember. But, if youngsters like I was pull the clove out, the fruit
quickly spoilt. We have a few oranges that are 5 and 6 years old (usually no
older, because newer fruit looks prettier and the really really ancient ones
eventually start becoming powdery and crumbling when you touch them).
I would suggest, instead of beads, buy some fake stone polymer clay (Fimo and
Sculpey III are good, they've got colors like pearl and granite and bunches
of others, also mixing for more jewel like tones is a good idea.). Form the
"gem" around the end of the clove. Bake at about 250 degrees Farenheit for
15 minutes. Then, coat with clear nail polish. (Now it can, if you so wish,
safely be pulled out with your teeth). Then, decorate the orange.
If you want the "gem" idea for something that will definitely be pulled out,
pins with glass beads on the end are another good solution.
And don't just stud it with fancy cloves . . .
This year, for the beer-marinade ham served at our party, we added two cloved
onions to the mix (the difference was subtle but noticeable). I was really
ticked at my dad. I spent 35 minutes cloving them in a pattern and he didn't
cook them and put them on the serving platter. (What is the purpose of a
garnish if you don't use it?)
Designs which succeed well on the fruit (and you will want to practice some)
are circles, stars, and stripes. My favorite is to divide the fruit into
three or four (depending on the size of the orange) equal sections by a thick
band of cloves and put 5 pointed stars in the empty spot. Then, speckle the
area inside the star (or outside the star) with more cloves. Not too many, a
very light sprinkle, enough to produce a shading effect.
This would look really faboo in "pearls." Also, consider using a mix of
topped and untopped cloves.
--
"I will buy with you, sell with you, talk with you, walk with you,
and so following; but I will not eat with you, drink with you, nor
pray with you. What news on the Rialto?"
- Merchant of Venice I.ii.35-38
Robin
>
<SNIP>
>Lately the SCA has stood for the Society for Constant Alcohol...
Oh Dear, I thought Sir Spewie had been quietly told to go away... :-)
Robin
http://www.powerup.com.au/~rhayes/index.htm
Creator and Author of The Fooles Troupe
http://www.powerup.com.au/~rhayes/vfoolshm.htm
Author of The Briese-Bane Vikings Information Centre
http://www.powerup.com.au/~rhayes/vikingb/vikingsh.htm
A brief Tutorial - Some WIN95 Speed Optimisations
http://www.powerup.com.au/~rhayes/serious/techinfo/optwin95.htm
--
Ring your local CocaCola 1-800 Customer Service Number and tell them you
are boycotting their products because of alleged CocaCola executives
involvement with Olympic corruption.
Please pass this message on.
Sam Dzielski
> Then have the Senachal replaced....if there are enough of you that, as
you
>say, have had enough, then do something about it.
The only problem is that those who complain dont get heard and so dont show
up enough to effect a change...
>Well....YOU could always come up with a few ideas for things to do other
then
>drink...and let those that wish to do so drink all they want....there is
>nothing that says that all of you have to do the same thing at the same
time.
Wel we do but like i said there arent enough of us dissenters at an envent
to effect a change....
>Kissing and groping are hardly reasons for calling a lasy a slut.....no
matter
>how passionate it may get......if the lady <or lord> in question happens to
be
>married then it is a matter for them and their mate to decide just "how
far"
>things are allowed to go.
Right I dont care what they do and especially if they are married. I'm
talking about people who dont want this affection or those who feel
threatened that every many on the group is comming on to them.....
>>
>>This isnt harmless though one married couple already broke up because of
>>this he had some "harmless flirting" behind a tree....
>
>Well....if it was behind a tree and I am taking your inflection correctly,
then
>it was hardly "harmless flirting"....it fall into a completely different
area.
> Last time I checked there was no penetration involved in "flirting" no
matter
>how risque. <<sarchasm fully intended>>
You read but dont understand..... they were behind a tree kissing (deeply
passionately) his lady saw him and said well if you like her so damn much
then go to hell and left.... however the previous preson I wrote to called
this behavior "harmless flirting"
>IM confused here.....first you say that everyone in your group acts like
this,
>giving the impression that you, and perhapts a few others, are the only
ones
>that do not... and then you mention "many members"......which is it? If
there
>are a great many of you that feel this way, then it is MUCH easier to do
>something about it.
I'd say its about 25% to 75% most (75%) sit around and make lude
comments.... the other 25% have gotten sick of it and have either stopped
comming out or only come to pensic... the only problem to effect a change
we need that full 25 % there at one time which now never occours.....
>If things are truely that bad, then I am left to wonder why you havent gone
to
>your Baron/Duke <insert proper title here> and let him/her know about it
and
>asked for soemthing to be done....and well..if he is part of the
problem..then
>there is always the King or Queen
I have and his attitude was like so what? The queen nad king however I
havent thought of going to yet because, i wanted to find out if this was the
norm and if it wasnt then what if anything could be done.......
>out just how INtolerant they can be to anything that they dont personally
>approve of. not nessicarly meaning you....its just an obervation of mine.
Obviously you do or you would have brought it up...but lets not get off the
topic .....
>then as I said before...do something about it.....volenteer to be
>Autocrat....then you DO have control to some extant.....it may be easier to
get
>someone else to solve the problem for you, but at the same time, you cant
go
>running to them every time it starts up again....and if they are truely as
bad
>as you say...it will. And..if none of the suggestions that any of us have
come
>up with work, the I have to go witht eh concensus on this one....perhapts
it
>would be better if you simply found another group.
Yeah but I live in the north wich the weather gets bad from time to time
(sarchasm intended) and the next group is 50 miles away..... also the group
didnt start out this way... it slowly degraded.....My friends are here....I
just wish they show up more often...
Sam Dzielski
>question. When offered, take it, say "thank you very much", then peel and
>eat it. All with perfect wide-eyed innocence.
I kiss you if it werent improper......
Mel5517
Englend area and don't want to get involved in a group that I'll feel
uncomftorable in. You can e-mail me if you don't want to post it here.
Melissa
Mel...@aol.com
Steffan
Chas wrote in message <36CA16...@historicgames.com>...
Sounds like a very useful policy. Problem is, this being a *voluntary*
organization, rules like that probably have exactly two chances of being
implemented: slim and none. :)
Personally, if drinking and loud partying is a problem, I like the idea of
finding *dry* sites for events and then letting whoever wants to party
hearty arrange their own revel. For myself, I'm gettin' too old for that.
:)
--Steffan
TGress1062
>Date: 2/16/99 05:19 PM Eastern Standard Time
Wrote:
>....My good husband showed me the perfect answer to the cloven fruit
>question. When offered, take it, say "thank you very much", then peel and
>eat it. All with perfect wide-eyed innocence.<
Bravo! Huzzah! and all the other exclaimations of approval and amusement!
Thom
The nice thing about liberty is, it works -- even if you're stupid.
Cumhail
>
> Greetings from Arval!
>
> > >>Lately the SCA has stood for the Society for Constant Alcohol.
> >
> > It has seem to have gotten that way in the east, and Pennsic, well nuff said
> > there.
>
> That is nonsense. There are very few generalizations that are true across
> the entire East Kingdom, and this is certainly not one of them. Pennsic
> varies radically from one camp to the next, if not from one tent to the
> next.
>
one camp to the next,". Much like any social behavior, ours does vary
radically from one group of people to the next. Lascivious behavior has
been around in and out of the Society since Christ was a corporal, and
it always will be. I'll even go so far as to say that there's
absolutely nothing wrong with debauchery and tippling as long as it is
done by consenting adults. If there is no assault or contributing to
delinquency, then all is well and good. If the only thing being
violated, however, is someone's sensibilities, why then someone needs to
play with a group that matches more closely their own patterns of
behavior - for there are, as the wise Arval alluded to, every sort of
group within our S(s)ociety from wannabe Goreans to Christian
Scientists, professional people to professional students (the latter
are such lucky dogs that I hate them all summarily). There is nothing
inherently wrong with tonsile-jousting, or tumbling merrily into one's
cups.....as long as everyone involved participates cheerily.
Remember....one man's garbage is another man's carpet armour. Or some
junk.
your servant,
Cumhail
Dave Aronson (remove x's to reply)
> In article <36C9D12F...@pdq.net>,
> Cadfan ap Morgan <peter....@pdq.net> wrote:
> > And the nice thing is, these can be kept and used as pomanders--a
> > very period accessory!
>
> Only if you don't pull the cloves out. Trust me on this, cloven fruit
> as decoration is a winter tradition in my family, has been for as
> long as I can remember. But, if youngsters like I was pull the clove
> out, the fruit quickly spoilt. We have a few oranges that are 5 and
> 6 years old (usually no older, because newer fruit looks prettier and
> the really really ancient ones eventually start becoming powdery and
> crumbling when you touch them).
That's why they were wrapped up in cloth. (Both to keep it from
disintegrating all over, and, I suspect, to keep little blighters from
yanking out the cloves!)
--
Dave Aronson, Sysop, AirNSun (f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org) +1-703-319-0714
Opinions MINE, not by GeoCities/Template/Mensa/NRA/SCA/CAUCE/USGov/God!
Support Rep. Smith's no-spam bill, NOT Sen. Murkowski's spam-is-OK one!
See my website, http://listen.to/davearonson (last updated 1999-02-10).
Mdeval Man
>the entire East Kingdom,
do you always have to go off like this. it is rather true of the east as well
as other kingdoms as well, its not isolated it is a problem
LB Taylor
gothe...@aol.com (GotheWulfe) wrote:
>As an aside....I always wonder about people that say things like this......Many
>times I have heard someone say "Im not intolerant/prejudiced/ect...some of my
>best friends are black/gay/whatever" yet when you truly talk to them, you find
>out just how INtolerant they can be to anything that they dont personally
>approve of. not nessicarly meaning you....its just an obervation of mine.
>
>Antonio DeLupo de Fierenza,
>Seer and Chief Advisor of the
>Matriarch Francesca deFierenza
Oh, oh...You just stomped my hot button big time.
I wish those who would demand TOLERANCE of all their behaviors would look
around them and realize the critical difference between tolerance and
acceptance. Perhaps then they would realize how truly INTOLERANT they are
being of the more traditional mores and values of others.
Tolerance and respect are two-way streets, but, PC being what it is, it
only seems to flow one direction these days...
Alex Baird
Caid
ThranSloth
5:56 AM quilled the following:
"I'd say its about 25% to 75% most (75%) sit around and make lude
comments.... the other 25% have gotten sick of it and have either stopped
comming out or only come to pensic... the only problem to effect a change
we need that full 25 % there at one time which now never occours....."
Personally I would suggest forming a household. If 25% of the group is sick of
this type of behavior, then you should be able to form a household that could
potentially make up 1/4 of your group. You don't need a majority to change
things, a household can insulate it's members. My group was formed because we
didn't like the way the other members of the group treated us. Politics,
differences in ages, etc. So we formed our own group. Sure, we mostly just
exist as an SCA group at Pennsic, but we are also all friends mundanely, so we
all get along.
-Gillean ab Lywellen of Ashwood
Thran Sloth
mittle
> it is rather true of the east as well as other kingdoms as well, its not
> isolated it is a problem
There is and will always be a small number of people who overindulge at
events. They tend to be more noticable than everyone else, so they give an
exaggerated impression of their numbers. The vast majority of people at
almost all events drink in moderation if at all.
So, it depends what you consider a problem. Is the occasional drunken lout
at an event a problem? Sure, for whoever is in charge of security and
maintaining order. But that doesn't make it a Society-wide crisis, as it
has sounded from some of the postings in this thread. It is a normal
problem for any social gathering, and far less significant in the Society
than in most places in our society.
Orianna
"Sam Dzielski" <dr...@floodcity.net> wrote:
> >1) Underage drinking at events is risky to anyone either consuming or
> drinking
> >the alcohol - it's a bad law, but it is the law, and threats can be invoked
> if
> >the case is as severe as you say ... which I doubt, based on my
> experience..
>
> Well it is as severe as I say and there are others in the group who share
> my opinion, they dont want to get kicked out of the campground we
> borrow...but the senchal approves of this so on it goes....
>
This is serious - the Seneschal is condoning illegal behavior. If a minor is
sent to the hospital in serious alcoholic condition, the authorities will not
look kindly on *anyone* and the Seneschal, as the legal mundane authority for
the local group could find himself in very deep legal troubles. And, as the
local officer who allowed illegal activity to occur at an event, the Society
will not step in to help his defense. The same goes for the autocrat. I
would also be very concerned about the owner of the campground finding out
about what is happening - he could easily kick you off site, and ban the SCA
from ever using his site again (since he too could be legally liable for such
activities). I would take this one to your Kingdom Seneschal and Crown
before something happens that the whole group is going to regret. (If you
feel that you might not have enough say to make a point, invite your Kingdom
Seneschal or the Crown to an event and have them see for themselves.)
(If I had heard of such actions - or lack of action - on the part of a local
seneschal when I was Kingdom Seneschal I would probably have had a serious
heart-to-heart with that seneschal (and the autocrat) and told them that
unless the behavior is stopped, the seneschal at least would be out of office
like a shot!)
>
> As I said it isnt just tongue chewing there tends to be groping... unwanted
> groping at times.... and its annoying many people, but those in power say aw
> they are just flirting... and let it go on.... the one girl in particular
> thereatened to sue the group for her being touched in a way she didn't
> like....with some persuasion she was talked out of it......
That is really too bad that she was talked out of it. Perhaps some
realization on the part of the members of your group that this activity is
not tolerable and there are consequences for their actions might make it stop
(or at least slow it down).
I would certainly see if there are others in the group who are of like mind
with you and as a group start to change the behavior. This is not courteous
or chivalrous behavior - something the SCA is supposed to stand for. If
someone wants to have a drunken orgy at their private house, that's one
thing. But not in the middle of an SCA event where actions are being forced
on people like this.
Any of the ones who seem to be the most involved have a relationship with a
peer (squire, apprentice, etc.)? If so, I would try to talk to that peer
about the unchivalrous behavior of their associate.
I am so sorry that this is your experience with the SCA. I agree that the
group needs to group up and stop acting like a bunch of over-hormoned
teenagers. I wish you luck in finding another group to play with or in trying
to clean up the behavior of the group you currently belong too. I hope that
something can be done before there are serious consequences of the actions.
And, this is not the norm - not even at Pennsic! Perhaps there are pockets
of groups where this type of activity occurs and if you are into that, you
are welcome to go join them. But, it is my experience that this is *not*
normal activity at most events and for a goodly portion of Pennsic, and to
make such a blanket statement (or to even imply that this type of activity
should simply be gazed upon with an indulgent and amused smile) is to make a
gross exageration that is unwarranted.
Baroness Orianna
Barony of Thescorre
Kingdom of AEthelmearc
TGress1062
>Date: 2/17/99 11:12 AM Eastern Standard Time
wrote:
>I wish those who would demand TOLERANCE of all their behaviors would look
>around them and realize the critical difference between tolerance and
>acceptance. Perhaps then they would realize how truly INTOLERANT they are
>being of the more traditional mores and values of others.
>
>Tolerance and respect are two-way streets, but, PC being what it is, it
>only seems to flow one direction these days...
>
>Alex Baird
>Caid
Amen to that!
Cumhail
>
> Milord--
>
> do go through. What eventually happens is that either the drunks burn out and
> go away, or the other members get tired of the drunks and go away, leaving the
> drunks to do all the work; *then* they burn out--or sober up.
>
We're falling into that old trap of "Us and Them". There isn't a sub
philum of "drunks" within the SCA. There are people who imbibe various
amounts, on various occasions. There is no moral high ground. People
who revel (even to excess) aren't automatically evil, nor are those who
abstain from the baser pleasures automatically righteous. We must all
seek out others of our own ilk to consort with. As long as those who
would roister bear in mind that it does not absolve them from the
courteous behavior that is expected of all Societyfolk, and others
concern themselves with their own sober pleasures, we'll maintain the
status quo in much the same manner as societies have for centuries.
Just as hedonism helped destroyed the Roman Empire, did puritanism aid
in the downfall of the English hold 'pon the world. Let us not let
either bring down our own little "empire" of kingdoms. Or some junk.
your servant,
Cumhail
Barbara Slade
I have a personal interest in alcohol and specifically what forms in which it is
consumed. I am sensitive enough to alcohol that I can't so much as use standard
toothpaste. That much makes me very uncomfortable, to the point where I look for
medical aid. More is deadly.
At wet events, I have no problem with those who want to drink. I run into real
difficulty in circumstances where the alcohol is disguised as something else as
in confections or electric fruit and the like. I am careful and I never let down
my guard, but I DO have a weakness for chocolate. ( I am also fine if the stuff
has cooked.)
Please indicate if there is alcoholic content in things other than beverages and
make it clear that it is not a joke to spike the tame punch or to add anything to
someone else's food or drink when they are not looking. You might ruin the
future of a recovering alcoholic or kill someone like me.
Myfanwy DDirwestol (the Temperate) ferch Gruffudd.
--
Barbara "Sian" Slade
Celtic Rose Perfumery
celt...@ionline.net
Tracyarts
>being of the more traditional mores and values of others.
>Tolerance and respect are two-way streets, but, PC being what it is, it
>only seems to flow one direction these days...
Yeah,
I have had this happen. I am perfectly tolerant of other's choices but they
damn well better be accepting of mine.
Unfortunately that only seems to go one way. If I were to make a nasty comment
about the choices of others, They'd start braying and bleating about
"intolerance"..... But if they slam my more conservative choices, then it is
"what I get for being so stuffy".
It ticks me off. But then again, narrowminded jerks and bigots come in ALL
flavors. And there are LOTS of people who like to jump on the "intolerance"
and "persecution" bandwagon as it suits their personal agendas.
There are lots of people out there who are very self-serving when it comes to
"acceptance". They want it for themselvs, but aren't willing to give the same
to others.
Like I said, bigotry comes in ALL flavors.
Tracy
mittle
Greetings from Arval! Tracy wrote:
> If I were to make a nasty comment about the choices of others, They'd
> start braying and bleating about "intolerance"..... But if they slam my
> more conservative choices, then it is "what I get for being so stuffy".
I certainly agree that there is liberal intolerance as well as conservative
intolerance. I'm curious, though, whether you're thinking of something
that happened in the Society. If so, can you tell us, in broad enough
detail that we don't have to worry about individual feelings?
mittle
> While I personally see nothing wrong with sampling (I said sampling, mind
> you) the local brewers' latest efforts, underage drinking of any sort is
> by definition against the law.
Isn't a parent allowed to give his child a glass of wine?
> I see a sanctioned SCA event in the near future... An unsupervised youth
> drinking to excess... The youth dies of alcohol poisoning... The SCA
> corporation is sued... An out of court settlement... Formal restrictions
> against drinking at events are codified...
Unlikely. The corporation has appropriate rules regarding alcohol and
minors. If an autocrat deliberately ignores them, the corporation is
probably not responsible. If the rules are broken without any officer's
knowledge, it would be very hard to hold the corporation responsible
either.
Mary Frey
>Isn't a parent allowed to give his child a glass of wine?
Technically, at least in PA, it is. Of course, someone has to report
the incident to the civil authorities; so far as I know, the civil
authorities do not seek out such incidents.
Mary of Montevale
Thomas V. Gunn
Mel5517 wrote:
Hello,
Where ever you are, you can always come over and hang our with us
Stonemarchians (NH). I always found our group to be pretty mellow and not too
... ahem... youthful for the most part.
Amethysta of Kensington
Kandy and Joe Fling
mittle wrote in message <7ak6u8$rto$1...@panix5.panix.com>...
[clip to here]
>Unlikely. The corporation has appropriate rules regarding alcohol and
>minors. If an autocrat deliberately ignores them, the corporation is
>probably not responsible. If the rules are broken without any officer's
>knowledge, it would be very hard to hold the corporation responsible
>either.
Sorry, that seriously depends on the dram shop and host resposibility laws
in the area where the event is held. More likely, anyway, the lawyers would
name not only the SCA, but the autocrat(s), the person(s) giving the minor
alcohol, and anyone else they can think of. 'Sides, they can be _sued_ the
real question is how successful the suit will be.....
Kandy in PA
Mark Hendershott
state. Here (Oregon) we have statutory language "or otherwise make
available" right after to give part. This provides great opportunities
for a cop or prosecutor to be creative about how the problem kid got the
booze.
A related, and equally important, topic is the common prohibition
against providing alcohol to a visibly intoxicated person. This can
lead to tort claims after said intoxicated person drives into a wreck,
falls in the lake etc. The supplier can be successfully sued.
Simon von der Eisenhandlung
An Tir
james koch
know what I mean, the free world, Europe and places like that. When I
was in Switzerland the McDonalds restaurants sold two kinds of beer and
red and white wine. Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
Phil Anderson
>I have a question. What laws apply outside of the United States?
Naturally, laws vary widely. In New Zealand, to oversimplify slightly,
the SCA is not allowed to provide alcohol to people under 20, but has
no need to prevent them from consuming alcohol they provide themselves.
Edward Long-hair
Southron Gaard, Caid
--
----------------------------------------------
Phil Anderson *** ha...@sloth.southern.co.nz
----------------------------------------------
"No-one is equal to anyone else!"
Lord Xbrew
>Stonemarchians (NH). I always found our group to be pretty mellow and not too
yes they are quite a silly bunch...lots of fun.
especally at the swiming hole at pennsic..lol
Fourevare in Period
!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~TO RESPOND USE THISADDRESS~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~
Xaviar_The...@yahoo.com
Tracyarts
>intolerance. I'm curious, though, whether you're thinking of something
>that happened in the Society. If so, can you tell us, in broad enough
>detail that we don't have to worry about individual feelings?
The only experience that happened in the Society that really got to me, was a
woman at an event verbally attacking me because she did not like the fact I was
in a monogamous relationship. She had apparently set her sights on my
then-partner and had sour grapes when she realized I would not "share".
Sorry...... MY relationship, MY rules.
I also had a couple of times when I had drink "pushed" on me and it kind of
offended the person offering it, that I did not accept. It is NO insult to the
person's brewing or bartending skills, just I have to strictly limit my alcohol
to at most 1 serving a day. Not that I disapprove of getting drunk, but I just
can't. Not being a "party pooper", just don't want to get sick.
I won't even get into detail, but I got a snide remark once from somebody who
found out I got my degree from a Roman Catholic university, and thought that
for some reason, that automatically made me closed minded or something.
(Assuming is SUCH a negative thing!)
But, this stuff happens outside SCA too. Can't generalize. You really can't
generalize ANYTHING to the SCA, as the same stuff goes on, and often more so at
other social events.
It has been my experience that there is such a broad group of people in the
SCA, that you can always find like-minded people to play with. If somebody
offends you, just movve on to another group. Just like outside the SCA.
Tracy
CRMayhew
happening with your group sounds extreme on a number of fronts. I would be
unhappy as well. Is there another group in your area? (I think changing the
bahaviour of a large number of individuals would be nigh impossible.)
Bronwynmgn
>Well it is as severe as I say and there are others in the group who share
>my opinion, they dont want to get kicked out of the campground we
>borrow...but the senchal approves of this so on it goes....
>
If the seneschal is approving and/or condoning underage drinking, then the
seneschal, who is the legal representative of the group, is breaking the law.
I suggest you contact the kingdom seneschal (the local seneschal's boss, as it
were) and apprise him/her of the situation. I think you might find that your
local seneschal gets, at the least, a stern warning to stop condoning illegal
activities, and may even be removed from the position. You might also let the
local seneschal know that the kingdom could remove SCA sanction from your
events (Ie, not allow you to hold events) because of repeated illegal
activities being condoned by the group.
Brangwayna Morgan
Seneschal, Shire of Silver Rylle
East Kingdom
Cumhail
>
> <snip> (I think changing the
> bahaviour of a large number of individuals would be nigh impossible.)
If the behavior of consenting adults offends one, then one should high
one'sself away, by all means. I thing that even attempting to change
the behavior of a large number of individuals is terribly pompous. I
mean, just what rational does one use? "I'll make the world a better
place by manipulating everyone so that they behave more like me."?
Please.
your servant,
Cumhail
Robin Pittman
> If the behavior of consenting adults offends one, then one should high
>one'sself away, by all means. I thing that even attempting to change
>the behavior of a large number of individuals is terribly pompous. I
<end lurker status>
If I am understanding it correctly, than I can't agree at all.
Consenting adults often don't use their heads and act as foolish as
teenagers (age is no indicator of maturity) but that's not the real problem,
the issue is that rather than acting so overly amorous in the open it makes
much more sense to be a little more discretionary. I've been to a few
rock-music festivals that are significantly less openly lecherous than many
camping events I have attended in the Society.
If people wish to engage in tonsil hockey or beyond, as seems to be
common in my age group (20 somethings), than buy all means, there's plenty
of places to do so that aren't in the middle of the bardic circle.
I thought courtly love was something that was hidden from the public's
eyes anyhow (though I've seen a few period paintings of debauchery that do
resemble some SCA revels).
Just a few thoughts...
Marian
"Robin Pittman" <gorf_r...@dowco.com> wrote:
>
> > If the behavior of consenting adults offends one, then one should high
> >one'sself away, by all means. I thing that even attempting to change
> >the behavior of a large number of individuals is terribly pompous. I
>
> <end lurker status>
>
> If I am understanding it correctly, than I can't agree at all.
> Consenting adults often don't use their heads and act as foolish as
> teenagers (age is no indicator of maturity) but that's not the real problem,
<clears throat *loudly*>
I don't know about what *you* did as a teenager, but this teenager does not
act that foolish and does not care to be lumped with that sort.
Yes, most people my age (I turn 18 in 16 days, 19 hours, 49 minutes) are
completely controlled by their hormones, but that doesn't mean we act foolish.
> the issue is that rather than acting so overly amorous in the open it makes
> much more sense to be a little more discretionary. I've been to a few
> rock-music festivals that are significantly less openly lecherous than many
> camping events I have attended in the Society.
>
> If people wish to engage in tonsil hockey or beyond, as seems to be
> common in my age group (20 somethings), than buy all means, there's plenty
> of places to do so that aren't in the middle of the bardic circle.
Exactly. Besides, it is much more romantic to be alone with the person whose
throat you are exploring with your tongue . . . anyways, when you are alone,
there are *other* things that can be done too.
> I thought courtly love was something that was hidden from the public's
> eyes anyhow (though I've seen a few period paintings of debauchery that do
> resemble some SCA revels).
>
> Just a few thoughts...
For the most part, vivat m'lord, I agree with you. But, as I said, I find it
disturbing to be lumped in with that sort by virtue of my being a teen.
--
"I will buy with you, sell with you, talk with you, walk with you,
and so following; but I will not eat with you, drink with you, nor
pray with you. What news on the Rialto?"
- Merchant of Venice I.ii.35-38
Robin Pittman
>For the most part, vivat m'lord, I agree with you. But, as I said, I find
it
>disturbing to be lumped in with that sort by virtue of my being a teen.
I must apologize then. I did not intend to label all youth as being this
way. We all act youthful at times, and thank god we do (I am but 24),
because life would be far more boring otherwise. This was only intended for
those whose do not regard it uncourteous to be overtly lecherous in public,
Mild lechery isn't so bad publicly, but anyone who behaves as though
attending an SCA event is an excuse for publicly lewd behavior has had a bit
too much to drink (or whatever). All ages are involved.
PLEASE do not take any of what I write as prudishness or political
correctness. I am not nearly as uncomfortable with such things as It may
sound, but I believe everyone should consider the feelings of others (though
it is admittedly fun to deliberately piss people off on occasion)
Ailric the Contradictory and the Greene
de...@goodnet.com
<peter....@pdq.net> wrote:
>As to the cloved fruit stuff--again, this is a phase. The problem goes away
>when the novelty wears off. It helps if the women of the group take the united
>stand that cloved fruit must be carefully made and discreetly offered if they're
>to have a chance of being accepted. Heh! You can even take some initiative
>yourself on this: make a cloved orange decorated with colored ribbon, fake gold
>beads and fake pearls (all easily obtainable at craft/hobby stores or cloth
>shops). Get it going around at the next event, if only by leaving it on a
>table--or better yet, by presenting it publicly and with great courtesy to your
>wife (the smooching you can do later--nice thing about being married ;o). When
>other folks get a look at it, they--especially the ladies--will likely raise
>their standards for what they will accept. When the men realize this, they'll
>start putting more care into the cloved fruit they make, which means they'll
>make fewer of them, and hence offer them more deliberately.
If you want to play the cloven fruit game, as with any game, realize
that different people play differently.
Sordid personal story begins:
At my first Estrella I was offered a cloven fruit, which I knew
nothing about and wouldn't take, which led to an all-night
conversation, which led to an exchange of phone numbers, which led to
. . . I never did take the fruit; we found it rotting in the yard
when I moved in. And every man who's offered me one since has been
told that I don't do the fruit. Anyone always has that option, and I
think it's much more courteous than my friend who peels the fruit and
eats it in front of the giver, then walks away.
-- della
TIMNWR
>>minors. If an autocrat deliberately ignores them, the corporation is
>>probably not responsible. If the rules are broken without any officer's
>>knowledge, it would be very hard to hold the corporation responsible
>>either.
Gues again. Federal laws passed last year allow for corporations and their
officers to be held liable for the actions of other employees of organizational
members, even in abscence of ANY knowlege, be it firsthand or secondhand, by
the officers of said organization. However, the only applications for these
types of laws have been relegated to sexual harrassment cases. Any creative
litigant could make a case for these laws to serve anyaplicable purpose to any
end that they may find to be benneficial.
Tim Ellerbee
Programming Coordinator WUST Radio: tim...@aol.com
Director Info Systems and Engineering WGMU Radio: be...@wgmu.gmu.edu
Greg Shetler
TIMNWR wrote:
>
> Gues again. Federal laws passed last year allow for corporations and their
> officers to be held liable for the actions of other employees of organizational
> members, even in abscence of ANY knowlege, be it firsthand or secondhand, by
> the officers of said organization.
The key is whether they acted in a reasonable manner to try to ensure
the enforcement of their rules against the illegal activity in
question. If they make a rule against certain activities, then make no
attempt to enforce it, Federal law allows them to be held liable, even
if they weren't aware of the activity. If they corporate officers make
reasonable efforts to make sure the rule is being enforced, then they
can't be held liable for activities that were kept purposely secret
despite the reasonable effort at enforcement.
The problem lies in demonstrating reasonable effort at enforcement.
An autocrat who actively looks for underage drinkers, and stops them or
removes them from the site, or who tasks his constables/fire watchers
with the additional task of watching for underage drinking, would
probably be safe. One who just posts "no underage drinking will be
tolerated" in the event rules, then makes no attempt to enforce the
rule, would probably not be safe.
Gotta love that legal language, huh? Tries to be so precise, but uses
terms like "reasonable" all the time....
Mordock
Rlongbow
by newbies or parasites who have no idea of the history of the ceremony.
The overindulgence is quite often (though not always) newbies, non-SCA
members or those in groups who make their own rules. It is unfortunate that as
the SCA grows, the splinter groups also increase in number. Where once there
was just a couple fools around, there are now households dedicated to "drink
till you drop" and "we are above the normal rules (we are barbarians,
mercenaries, savages, whatever)".
I've been in the SCA East Kingdom about 8 years and there have always been
folk who just "don't know how to play with others".
Robert the Doubtful
BoskSCA
There are many areas on this last statement I would like to touch upon but
I am not sure if I want to. Besides it is a debate better done in person rather
than over this mode of communication. Let me just say a couple things and I
will on my way.
First of all I will not flame you on your comments because I feel we are
all entitled to our opinions, that is the beauty of freedom. I would like to
say that from a "barbarian" point of view that some of what you say is not
fair. If it is the question of such groups as the "vampires" I am in total
agreement with them not having a place in the SCA. Also the groups that do
nothing but drink until they pass out and that is their only purpose need to go
too. Our group, a barbarian mercenary tribe, do not fall into either catagory
however. We may make our own rules but we do nothing to harm others and
importantly are historically accurate. Ok one more thing then I am going to go.
From what it sounds you think very little of groups like ours and pretty much
the reverse is true as well. It is like a mutual dislike I suppose with some
people but I get along with Scadians very well. I am diverse that way I guess.
The last point I would like to make is I am anything but a fool. I may act it
sometimes and our group loves to have fun and sometimes yes that includes some
drinking but we don't hurt or bother anyone generally. Please just don't
generalize all your "splinter groups" as fools just because they don't act like
you or what you call "the norm". Get to know some of us, we are not all that
bad and you may just have a good time.
Bosk, One of the Chieftans of Clan Teaghlach
Nerak
gentle, but he just doesn't get the picture.
If you want to play rugby, don't come to a cricket game.
Dennis O'Connor
>I had thought of several rather scathing and clever things to say to this
>gentle, but he just doesn't get the picture.
> If you want to play rugby, don't come to a cricket game.
Here's one for you:
If you want to play a game any more restrictive of what other
people do than "wear an attempt at pre-17th Century garb
and obey the rules of the event", don't come to the SCA.
--
Dennis O'Connor dm...@primenet.com
Vanity Web Page: http://www.primenet.com/~dmoc/
Cadfan ap Morgan
heading "LANCELOT MEETS CONAN." I wrote it. I offer it as an example of how the
authenticist might meet the barbarian role-player halfway)
...can fantasy-barbarian personae be integrated into a historically-accurate
medieval context? I think the answer is "yes," because while characters like Conan
and Red Sonja did not actually exist during the Middle Ages, people of that period
*believed* they did.
Firstly, they believed in "wild men"--tribes of hairy, near-naked, perpetually
violent savages who, like dragons, unicorns and pheonixes, inhabited the _terra
incognita_ of the day. Like those other fantastic creatures, the wild man's (and
woman's) image was used in both heraldry and pageantry, including the infamous
"Dance of the Wild Men" which killed Charles VI of France (note that this was long
before Columbus discovered America or Robert Bly discovered pop psychology!).
While the average homebody might never hope to see such creatures, an adventurous
traveller would expect to encounter them every so often: therefore their occasional
presence at large gatherings in distant lands (like Pennsic) would be deemed a
curiosity, but not a wonder.
Secondly, then as now, people were prone to characterize foreigners in general as
ill-dressed and uncouth, particularly if one were a stay-at-home with little direct
experience of alien cultures. If a bunch of Tuchux were transported back to the
Middle Ages, the average Moslem might think they were Franks while a Frank would
take them for Wends. An Englishman whose knowledge of Ireland had been taken from
Giraldus Cambrensis' bigoted accounts would peg them for Irish right away, and so
on.
So whether your persona is wide-faring or domestic, there are ways to fit those
hirsute, sartorially-challenged roisterers comfortably into his or her world-view.
Actually there's a third alternative as well: just assume they're mummers on their
way to a pageant. It might be interesting to see their reaction when asked
"Prithee, milord, art thou in a masque?"
MonkLee316
Li
mittle
Greetings from Arval! Cadfan ap Morgan wrote:
> ...can fantasy-barbarian personae be integrated into a
> historically-accurate medieval context? I think the answer is "yes,"
> because while characters like Conan and Red Sonja did not actually exist
> during the Middle Ages, people of that period *believed* they did.
That argument makes sense if you believe that the Society's goal is to
portray the world as a medieval man saw it (and if, indeed, medieval folk
believed that fantastical barbarians existed; more of that point below). I
don't think that is our purpose. I believe we're trying to portray
selected parts of the medieval world as it was.
> Firstly, they believed in "wild men"--tribes of hairy, near-naked,
> perpetually violent savages who, like dragons, unicorns and pheonixes,
> inhabited the _terra incognita_ of the day. Like those other fantastic
> creatures, the wild man's (and woman's) image was used in both heraldry
> and pageantry...
Are you arguing that because they portrayed monsters in pageants and
heraldry, they believed that they were real? That is clearly not a valid
argument: On the same basis, one would conclude that 20th century Americans
believe that Klingons and Teletubbies are real.
lib...@centum.utulsa.edu
mit...@panix.com wrote:
> argument: On the same basis, one would conclude that 20th century Americans
> believe that Klingons and Teletubbies are real.
Hey, I've *Seen* Klingons with my own two eyes. I've even ridden an elevator
with one. :)
As an additional point to what's being said -- medieval people also believed
in fairies, elves, vampires, and other innumerable unpleasant spirits of the
earth and of the night. Hmm, can I play a Chaotic-Neutral Magic-User/Thief?
Marc/Diarmaid
Hangdog
> Greetings from Arval! Cadfan ap Morgan wrote:
>
> > ...can fantasy-barbarian personae be integrated into a
> > historically-accurate medieval context? I think the answer is "yes,"
> > because while characters like Conan and Red Sonja did not actually exist
> > during the Middle Ages, people of that period *believed* they did.
>
> That argument makes sense if you believe that the Society's goal is to
> portray the world as a medieval man saw it (and if, indeed, medieval folk
> believed that fantastical barbarians existed; more of that point below). I
> don't think that is our purpose. I believe we're trying to portray
> selected parts of the medieval world as it was.
But what we *end up* creating is the medieval world as *we* see it. I am
simply offering an aid to role-playing that can be used to render less awkward
casual contact between individuals or groups whose visions of the middle ages
differ as widely as those of the fantasist and the authenticist.
> > Firstly, they believed in "wild men"--tribes of hairy, near-naked,
> > perpetually violent savages who, like dragons, unicorns and pheonixes,
> > inhabited the _terra incognita_ of the day. Like those other fantastic
> > creatures, the wild man's (and woman's) image was used in both heraldry
> > and pageantry...
>
> Are you arguing that because they portrayed monsters in pageants and
> heraldry, they believed that they were real? That is clearly not a valid
> argument: On the same basis, one would conclude that 20th century Americans
> believe that Klingons and Teletubbies are real.
I was presenting an illustrative example. It was not intended to be
definitive. Plenty of textual references to wild men, unicorns, dragons, etc.
as matters of fact can be found in the literature of the period, whereas
modern textual references clearly indicate that we know Teletubbies, Klingons,
etc. to be fictitious.
(As an aside, I should point out that medieval Eurpoeans apparently didn't
quite conceive of fiction as we do, i.e., untrue things told for
entertainment. As Cervantes maintained in Don Quixote, there was Truth and
Untruth, and no middle ground. Deliberately-told untruths were lies, therefore
sinful. This didn't prevent fiction from being written, but its production and
enjoyment seem to have been somewhat guilty pleasures; hence Chaucer's
fig-leaves of having heard his _Canterbury Tales_ from a band of pilgrims, or
getting his _Troilus and Cressida_ from the fictitious book of Lollius)
--Cadfan
Jay Rudin
keeping track of who said what.
C> ...can fantasy-barbarian personae be integrated into a
C> historically-accurate medieval context? I think the answer is "yes,"
C> because while characters like Conan and Red Sonja did not actually
exist
C> during the Middle Ages, people of that period *believed* they did.
A> That argument makes sense if you believe that the Society's goal is
A> to portray the world as a medieval man saw it (and if, indeed,
A> medieval folk believed that fantastical barbarians existed; more of
A> that point below).
It also makes sense if our goal is to portray the world as medieval man
portrayed it, and if they ever portrayed it that way.
A> Are you arguing that because they portrayed monsters in pageants and
A> heraldry, they believed that they were real? That is clearly not a
A> valid argument: On the same basis, one would conclude that 20th
A> century Americans believe that Klingons and Teletubbies are real.
It is perfect valid to conclude that modern men sometimes dressed up as
Klingons.
In Renaissance tourneys, they would attend and fight in the guise of
pirates, Amazons, Arthurian Knights, Virtues, etc. While a wild man is
not theoretically a valid persona, dressing and acting as one, based on
absurd and unhistorical notions about how such a being might dress and
act, is a perfectly authentic thing to do.
Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
Brent Hanner
>
>
> In Renaissance tourneys, they would attend and fight in the guise of
> pirates, Amazons, Arthurian Knights, Virtues, etc. While a wild man is
> not theoretically a valid persona, dressing and acting as one, based on
> absurd and unhistorical notions about how such a being might dress and
> act, is a perfectly authentic thing to do.
Note: This was done atleast as early as the 13th century.
Peder
--
Sometimes your ahead, sometimes your behind, the race is long and in
the end the race is only with yourself.
Cadfan ap Morgan
> As an additional point to what's being said -- medieval people also believed
> in fairies, elves, vampires, and other innumerable unpleasant spirits of the
> earth and of the night. Hmm, can I play a Chaotic-Neutral Magic-User/Thief?
Depends. Did the medievals ever dress up and pretend to be them?
I doubt anyone in the Middle Ages would have pretended to be a vampire. The
period vampire concept was nothing at all like the Brahm Stoker/Anne Rice model.
It was more like a bloodthirsty zombie--"ravenous, smelly, and not too bright" as
Vlad Ravna Starkraven (Lyndon Joslin) once put it.
However, you might well meet a "demon" of some sort: men in demon costumes played
a role in many late-medieval religious processions and other civic displays (a
custom which persists in South America to this day). An excellent example of
this was the _Schembartlauf_ of 15th-century Nuremberg, in which a huge parade
float shaped like a ship and defended by townsmen in demon costumes would be
attacked by other townsmen dressed as soldiers. Both sides would use fireworks
(basically sparklers or Roman candles, it appears) as their weapons. Ultimately
the demons would be defeated and their ship destroyed by fire. Today we have
wrestling.
Fairies and elves are fair(e) game: an Elizabethan Englishman or -woman might
well play such a role as part of a masque or other courtly entertainment--and
many did. Bear in mind, however, that these would not be the fairies and elves
of Victorian romance or Dragonlance adventures.
These would not be everyday personae, but something you might affect for special
events. More to my point, these are also ways your persona might legitimately
interpret people dressed as vampires, elves, and fairies such as they might see
at Pennsic: they wouldn't be frightened or weirded out, because they knew that
people in their own home towns would dress up like this for pageants or other
special occasions. And Pennsic is, after all, a special occasion.
--Cadfan
Larry Johnson
BoskSCA wrote:
> Hail to all,
>
> Our group, a barbarian mercenary tribe, do not fall into either catagory
> however. We may make our own rules but we do nothing to harm others and
> importantly are historically accurate.Please just don't
> generalize all your "splinter groups" as fools just because they don't act like
> you or what you call "the norm". Get to know some of us, we are not all that
> bad and you may just have a good time.
>
> Bosk, One of the Chieftans of Clan Teaghlach
Greetings Bosk,
I tend to agree with you. Let me see now, the Romans called the
Gauls and Celts Barbarians, The English called the Vikings Barbarians,
and everyone called the Huns Barbarians. Oh yah, the Japanese called the
Portugese Barbarians too. So, in my humble, personal opinion, ones
civilization is anothers barbaric tribe.
Yours aye,
Labhran MacIain
lib...@centum.utulsa.edu
>
> > As an additional point to what's being said -- medieval people also believed
> > in fairies, elves, vampires, and other innumerable unpleasant spirits of the
> > earth and of the night. Hmm, can I play a Chaotic-Neutral Magic-User/Thief?
>
> Depends. Did the medievals ever dress up and pretend to be them?
>
Probably about as often as they dressed up and pretended to be barbarians,
don't you think?
mittle
Greetings from Arval! Robin replied to me.
> A> That argument makes sense if you believe that the Society's goal is
> A> to portray the world as a medieval man saw it (and if, indeed,
> A> medieval folk believed that fantastical barbarians existed; more of
> A> that point below).
>
> It also makes sense if our goal is to portray the world as medieval man
> portrayed it, and if they ever portrayed it that way.
That's true, and a legitimate part of portraying the medieval world as it
was.
> A> Are you arguing that because they portrayed monsters in pageants and
> A> heraldry, they believed that they were real? That is clearly not a
> A> valid argument: On the same basis, one would conclude that 20th
> A> century Americans believe that Klingons and Teletubbies are real.
>
> It is perfect valid to conclude that modern men sometimes dressed up as
> Klingons.
Sure, and I think it's delightful for people at our events to stage
pageants in which they play roles that medieval folk would have played.
But that's clearly not the same as claiming to _be_ fantastical monsters.
mittle
Greetings from Arval! Cadfan ap Morgan replied to me.
me> I believe we're trying to portray selected parts of the medieval world
me> as it was.
> But what we *end up* creating is the medieval world as *we* see it.
Absolutely true, but I'm not sure how that supports portraying fantasy,
even medieval fantasy, as if it were real.
> I am simply offering an aid to role-playing that can be used to render
> less awkward casual contact between individuals or groups whose visions
> of the middle ages differ as widely as those of the fantasist and the
> authenticist.
I understand, but you have to realize that many Societyfolk don't want to
facilitate contact with role-players who are playing significantly
different games. So while your motives are entirely benificent, your
efforts may still not be welcome.
> Plenty of textual references to wild men, unicorns, dragons, etc. as
> matters of fact can be found in the literature of the period...
Please give examples.
> (As an aside, I should point out that medieval Eurpoeans apparently didn't
> quite conceive of fiction as we do, i.e., untrue things told for
> entertainment. As Cervantes maintained in Don Quixote, there was Truth and
> Untruth, and no middle ground.
Cervantes was a satirist. He was spoofing Society, not portraying it
accurately. I think it is clear, for example, that medieval audiences for
the romances clearly understood that they were fiction. It was
conventional for authors to claim that their stories were historical, but
that doesn't mean people believed those claims. I think we have to be very
careful in attributing more gullibility to medieval audiences than we would
accept for modern audiences.
yah...@eagle.cc.ukans.edu
: In article <36DB582D...@pdq.net>,
: Cadfan ap Morgan <peter....@pdq.net> wrote:
: > lib...@centum.utulsa.edu wrote:
: >
: > > As an additional point to what's being said -- medieval people also
: > > believed in fairies, elves, vampires, and other innumerable unpleasant
: > > spirits of the earth and of the night. Hmm, can I play a Chaotic-
: >
: > Depends. Did the medievals ever dress up and pretend to be them?
: >
: Probably about as often as they dressed up and pretended to be barbarians,
: don't you think?
This is sort of on-topic, I think....
There was one incident (described in Barbara Tuchman's "A Distant
Mirror") where several people dressed up as wood spirits or wild men to
perform a dance at a feast, so at least it's documented that 14th-century
French noblemen on occasion dressed up as fantastic creatures. Unfortunately,
several of the dancers caught fire, since their costumes were made of
highly combustible stuff. :(
Giraude
Simon des Beaux Eaux (remove x's to reply)
> the Romans called the Gauls and Celts Barbarians, The English called
> the Vikings Barbarians, and everyone called the Huns Barbarians. Oh
> yah, the Japanese called the Portugese Barbarians too.
But when it's National Brotherhood Week....
--
Dave Aronson, Sysop, AirNSun (f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org) +1-703-319-0714
Opinions MINE, not by GeoCities/Template/Mensa/NRA/SCA/CAUCE/USGov/God!
Support Rep. Smith's no-spam bill, NOT Sen. Murkowski's spam-is-OK one!
See my big web site, http://listen.to/davearonson (updated 1999-03-01).
Elizabeth A. Anderson
>> lib...@centum.utulsa.edu wrote:
>>
>> > As an additional point to what's being said -- medieval people also believed
>> > in fairies, elves, vampires, and other innumerable unpleasant spirits of the
>>
>> Depends. Did the medievals ever dress up and pretend to be them?
>>
>Probably about as often as they dressed up and pretended to be barbarians,
>don't you think?
Point well made.
From the reading I have done on the medieval religious
experience, I gather that one's personal religious life tended to
permeate one's life in a way no longer common. However, when
people say 'medieval people *believed* in fairies, etc.' I would
like to say that the evidence seems to pretty much the same as
people saying of us, now, that we *believed* in ufo aliens and
Sasquatch and ghosts and ...
I don't know of any evidence to indicate that people in period
dressed up as elves and fairies and other inter-dimensional
beings, but I do know that the first 'reenactment' of Arthur's
time took place at a tourney sometime in the 13th century.
And I have found a painting dating to very late period (c1630)
in which a woman is wearing a 'medieval-type' gown as a
deliberate costume. It's got the most amazing dagged sleeves!
Nan Compton (mka Bess Anderson) eand...@ucalgary.ca
Barony of Montengarde
Tolle legens!
Ogedei
catagory
> however. We may make our own rules but we do nothing to harm others and
to go.
> From what it sounds you think very little of groups like ours and pretty
much
> the reverse is true as well. It is like a mutual dislike I suppose with
some
> people but I get along with Scadians very well. I am diverse that way I
guess.
> The last point I would like to make is I am anything but a fool. I may
act it
> sometimes and our group loves to have fun and sometimes yes that includes
some
> generalize all your "splinter groups" as fools just because they don't
act like
> you or what you call "the norm". Get to know some of us, we are not all
that
> bad and you may just have a good time.
>
> Bosk, One of the Chieftans of Clan Teaghlach
>
>
Well if your playing a historically authenticatable people from
600AD-1600AD or so, more power to you. Thats what the SCA is about.
The SCA is not just about knights in shining armor.
it's about learning whichever you choose to learn about.
Proud to be Mongolian
Ogedei,
Champion of Cold Keep
BoskSCA
>
>I tend to agree with you. Let me see now, the Romans called the
>Gauls and Celts Barbarians, The English called the Vikings Barbarians,
>and everyone called the Huns Barbarians. Oh yah, the Japanese called the
>civilization is anothers barbaric tribe.
>
>Yours aye,
>Labhran MacIain
>
Hail Labhran,
What you say is true. Whether some like it or not or are uncomfortable
with them, a fact of history is that it is loaded with groups dubbed as
barbarians. They are a significant part of the world and should be represented
if we are going to try to be accurate. Thank you for your comments!!! I liked
them a lot.
Bosk of the Teaghlach
"Do what you will, cause harm to none"
BoskSCA
>600AD-1600AD or so, more power to you. Thats what the SCA is about.
>
>The SCA is not just about knights in shining armor.
>
>it's about learning whichever you choose to learn about.
>
>Proud to be Mongolian
>
>Ogedei,
>Champion of Cold Keep
Hail Ogedei,
Thank you very much for what you said. Our group does it's best to
accurately portry a Celtic babrarin tribe. It is tough with the info being
somewhat sketchy and mostly secondhand or speculation since writing was not
well practiced with them, but we do what we can and I think we do a good job.
We just want to have a good time like everyone else and co-exist with the
Scadians. The problem is that there is malice towards each other on both sides
which will be hard to discourage. So many predetermined thoughts on how the
others are is hard to do away with. But I will try. Take care.
Bosk of Clan Teaghlach
crow
>
> >
> >
>
> Well if your playing a historically authenticatable people from
> 600AD-1600AD or so, more power to you. Thats what the SCA is about.
>
> The SCA is not just about knights in shining armor.
>
> it's about learning whichever you choose to learn about.
>
> Proud to be Mongolian
>
Well...as long as you know what the SCA is all about, you'll know that
it is NOT about pretending to be a character from J. Norman, or R.
Howard. It's not about being a warlord of mars, a vampire master, or
Howard the Duck. Not one single group in history has EVER refered to
themselves (proudly or otherwise) as barbarians. None of them went
about in breechclouts, sandals and jewelry with savage swords, or made
tarn strikes on hapless city-states. Here's what _I_ think the SCA is
about. I think it's about history. Whether European history, Steppes
history, or Japanese history, or all of the above is arguable, but
Gorean, Cimmerian, Hyperborian, etc. is not up for debate.
Now, as a man who's eldest son is legally named Tarl Cabot Mackenzie,
I
feel unbiased enough to point out that Bosk (the name of a fictional,
horned bovine), Groo (oriental adhesive joke deleted), or Brakk (I have
made that sound after a revel, a time or two), along with the personae
that they invoke are NOT what the SCA is about. By all means wear your
chainmail loincloth and back-slung broadsword while leading your lady
around on a leash if that's how you get your jollies, but don't claim
that it has anything to do with history.
your servant,
Cumhail
Greycat Sharpclaw
>Well if your playing a historically authenticatable people from
>600AD-1600AD or so, more power to you. Thats what the SCA is about.
or 473-1600. or 500-1600. Or whatever date period you first learn...
Remember there is *no* SCA-wide defined start point for the SCA
period. There are traditions (and I've heard it claimed that some
kingdoms have codified these traditions), but this is regional... I
joined the SCA in an area where the fall of Rome was the tradition,
and I live in an area where peoples from the 5th and 6th century are
common.
The official period is "pre-17th century)
Emrys
Jaguar
On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Ogedei wrote:
>
> Well if your playing a historically authenticatable people from
> 600AD-1600AD or so, more power to you. Thats what the SCA is about.
>
> The SCA is not just about knights in shining armor.
>
> it's about learning whichever you choose to learn about.
>
> Proud to be Mongolian
>
> Ogedei,
> Champion of Cold Keep
That early cutoff date is NOT set in stone.
Quite alot of bronze age or time of Roman invasion Celts running about
too.
Morwen/Jaguar
Jaguar
On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, crow wrote:
> themselves (proudly or otherwise) as barbarians. None of them went
> about in breechclouts, sandals and jewelry with savage swords, or made
> tarn strikes on hapless city-states. Here's what _I_ think the SCA is
Um. What about tightfitting screaming plaid pants, (if that much)
Big hair (maybe spiked with lime) Moustache, shoes, & lots of showy
jewelry, waving swords & other weapons about making strikes oh hapless
city states. The Delphic oracle yielded much loot. So did Rome. (& you got
to tug on the Roman elder's beards in the process:)
It was all fun & games 'till Rome coughed up Caeser (Julius)
Jaguar/Morwen
Jaguar
>On 28 Feb 1999, Nerak wrote:
> I had thought of several rather scathing and clever things to say to this
> gentle, but he just doesn't get the picture.
> If you want to play rugby, don't come to a cricket game.
ah. But you are playing cricket.. another soccer, another baseball.
From a distance it all looks rather like CalvinBall ('a la Calvin &
Hobbes) No one time period or culture for personas. & ALOT of modern
interpetation/SCA culture thrown in.
Any wonder you get a few that are confused?
Morwen/Jaguar
>
>
> Ne...@aol.com
>
>
>
Jay Rudin
L> I tend to agree with you. Let me see now, the Romans called the
L> Gauls and Celts Barbarians, The English called the Vikings
L> Barbarians, and everyone called the Huns Barbarians. Oh yah, the
L> Japanese called the Portugese Barbarians too. So, in my humble,
L> personal opinion, ones civilization is anothers barbaric tribe.
Well, yes. Etymologically, the Greek word barbarian ("barbaros")is
someone who cannot speak Greek.
> What you say is true. Whether some like it or not or are
> uncomfortable with them, a fact of history is that it is loaded with
> groups dubbed as barbarians. They are a significant part of the world
> and should be represented if we are going to try to be accurate.
Of course. And they *are* well-represented in the SCA. Here in
Ansteorra, we have more Vikings and early Celts than we do Normans.
I think you'll discover two facts, however.
1. If you really are going to try to be accurate, you won't get much
trouble. No one objects to Jutes, Vandals, Mongols, Vikings, or any
other group that was called barbarian by its neighbors.
2. The statement "I am a barbarian" would have been meaningless in any
period time, since a barbarian is someone who isn't one of us. "We are
barbarians" means "We're not us; we're them." In fact, nobody *could*
call himself "barbaros" in its original sense. The fact that he could
say it is proof that he's not. "Barbarian", like "knight", is a
sobriquet you are given, not one you can claim for yourself.
So if you want to play some specific time and place and follow the rules
of a people who were less citified and cultured than the High Middle
Ages, then the SCA is a great place for it, and you won't get hassled
for it. But if you *don't* want to play a specific time and place, but
just be a "barbarian mercenary tribe" and make your own rules, then the
people trying to play the SCA game by historical research and the SCA
rules will be annoyed.
One other idea: If you want to play a generic barbarian in the tourney,
there is a way to do that, too. Take a Renaissance persona, and attend
tourneys "disguised" as a Wild Man. This could be great fun, but after
the list you'd be a Renaissance lord who ate the feast with courtly
manners.
Have fun.
Kaleiokalani J. Barela
monstrous barbarians, with their pointy helmets, and their pointy little
eyes. They feed on the flesh of children, and lay entire cities to waste.
I've heard they can even take the form of horses. They stink, and talk
funny. They make barking sounds like dogs. And if you ever hear thunder on
a clear day, RUN. It is probably them, charging, and killing. They come
Straight from Hell, I tell you. I've seen one of them. Nasty, smelly,
little thing.
Lord Kalvin the Barrel
Huskarl of The Fray
BoskSCA
>I
>feel unbiased enough to point out that Bosk (the name of a fictional,
>horned bovine), Groo (oriental adhesive joke deleted), or Brakk (I have
>made that sound after a revel, a time or two), along with the personae
>that they invoke are NOT what the SCA is about. By all means wear your
>chainmail loincloth and back-slung broadsword while leading your lady
>around on a leash if that's how you get your jollies, but don't claim
>that it has anything to do with history.
>
>your servant,
>Cumhail
>
I will not argue the point that fantasy worlds do not belong within the sca if
that is what they are representing. I do come from the Tuchux (the Gorean
world) and am proud I was a part of that group very much and would do nothing
to put them down although I may not agree with many of their ways or some of
what they stand for. However we have split off from them and have formed our
own group. We are attempting to be as historically accurate as we possibly can
and I am currently looking into a more accurate name for my persona although I
will always keep my current one as a nickname because of the simple fact that I
like it and that is has significance to me. We (I mean our group) have as
accurate as personas as can be made and are not fictional in any way. We don't
refer to ourselves as barbarians because like said they were labeled that by
other factions. For example in our case being Celts, the Romans labeled us the
"barbarians of the north". Sometimes it is easier in conversation to explain us
that way for simplicity sake. So in ending I agree with what you say in some
ways and all I would like to say is that not all folks like us are not
un-historical partiers here just to see how long it takes to pass out. :) I am
not saying that is how you in particular feel, just a comment to all. Some of
us are trying to be as historically accurate as we possibly can. Do take care.
Bosk of Clan Teaghlach
BoskSCA
Hail Robin of Gilwell,
Very very good points! I hate telling people "we are barbarians" because
we cannot call ourselves that, only others can. It is sometimes easier to say
that for simplicity sake though. We do try to be as historically accurate as we
can and have I have no problem fitting into the sca world. Yes we do have our
own rules but they are nothing out of a fantasy book, they go along with our
group concept. We are 2nd-4th Century Celts. I am doing all the research I can
on the time period and as well on a name for my new persona. I will not being
doing away with my old tuchux one completely, merely integrating it into my new
one. I like the name I have now and it means a lot to me and will remain a
nickname with whatever name I decide on. We are not a fantasy group, we are
historical. That is really all I wanted to say to all. Without it being said a
lot of people compare other "barbaric" types of groups with the Tuchux and I
guess that would only be natural. I may not agree with them on a lot of things,
I am proud to have been one. Although they do not represent any one time period
in particular, and some of their ways are less than orthodox, some of their
ways are indicitive of nomadic tribes. They do teach good lessons such as honor
and glory and brotherhood. It is hard to describe. I hope this was of some
help.
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
<snip>
: Bosk of Clan Teaghlach
"Clan Household"? Just caught my eye, and now I'm curious what the story
is behind it.
Tangwystyl
--
*********************************************************
Heather Rose Jones hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
**********************************************************
Cumhail
>
<snip>
> So if you want to play some specific time and place and follow the rules
> of a people who were less citified and cultured than the High Middle
> Ages, then the SCA is a great place for it, and you won't get hassled
> for it. But if you *don't* want to play a specific time and place, but
> just be a "barbarian mercenary tribe" and make your own rules, then the
> people trying to play the SCA game by historical research and the SCA
> rules will be annoyed.
And then there's the Tuchuks...who seem to have successfully
accomplished what Bosk is proposing, and have apparently read some of
the same pulp fantasy novels.
On the other side, we have the Great Dark Horde, who has arguably
become the pentultimate "barbarian" horde, but has, for the most part,
remained well and admirably within the guidelines that most of us use to
define our Society.
we've all the itinerant SCA "barbarian" in the chamois loincloth with
the katana strapped to his back - it's a SCAdian sub-phylum sort of like
the bristling ninja, or the know-all newbie. Whether you find him
amusing, offensive, or wholly acceptable, he's playing a subtly
different game than the SCA is supposed to be playing. That's not
opinion, but the Society's official stance. My lord of Gilwell's post
holds as true to the spirit of the SCA as it (always) does to the letter
- by all means be an old Celt, or a Viking, or a Mongol, etc., but
please do it in the spirit of the Society. Of course, in the SCA you
can pretty much do what ever you want. What was that line again about
Winnie the Pooh being unable to figure out a better way to decend the
stairs...?
your servant,
Cumhail
Cumhail
>
> On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, crow wrote:
> > themselves (proudly or otherwise) as barbarians. None of them went
> > about in breechclouts, sandals and jewelry with savage swords, or made
> > tarn strikes on hapless city-states. Here's what _I_ think the SCA is
>
> Um. What about tightfitting screaming plaid pants, (if that much)
> Big hair (maybe spiked with lime) Moustache, shoes, & lots of showy
> jewelry, waving swords & other weapons about making strikes oh hapless
> city states. The Delphic oracle yielded much loot. So did Rome. (& you got
> to tug on the Roman elder's beards in the process:)
>
your servant,
Cumhail
Cumhail
>
<snip>
> ways and all I would like to say is that not all folks like us are not
> un-historical partiers here just to see how long it takes to pass out. :) I am
> not saying that is how you in particular feel, just a comment to all. Some of
> us are trying to be as historically accurate as we possibly can. Do take care.
>
that you WERE anti-authenticity....we all deserve to be judged by the
actions of ourselves and non other. As far as the "chux" go, I spent
several hours in Tuchux camp one night around Pennsic 10 or 11 in a
headbutting contest. It was sort of an impromptu competition, but when,
at the end, I drunkenly demanded my rightful prize, one was produced and
proffered with a show of open-handedness and franchise that would put
some "kingdom" nobles to shame. They add a certain colour to the SCA
that can be fun and interesting, but it's not the game that I joined the
SCA to play. Basically, Bosk, I'm just tossing around unsolicited
advice... please don't think that I'm being critical of you or your
group.
your servant,
Cumhail
Larry Johnson
BoskSCA wrote: What you say is true. Whether some like it or not or are
uncomfortable
> with them, a fact of history is that it is loaded with groups dubbed as
> barbarians. They are a significant part of the world and should be represented
> if we are going to try to be accurate. Thank you for your comments!!! I liked
> them a lot.
> Bosk of the Teaghlach
>
> "Do what you will, cause harm to none"
Greetings Bosk,
I see you have started a great discussion thread! Most interesting and lively
without flames.
Yours aye,
Labhran
ThranSloth
"That argument makes sense if you believe that the Society's goal is to
portray the world as a medieval man saw it (and if, indeed, medieval folk
believed that fantastical barbarians existed; more of that point below). I
don't think that is our purpose. I believe we're trying to portray
selected parts of the medieval world as it was."
I thought we were trying to portray "the middle ages as they should have been."
Whatever that means.
mit...@panix.com (mittle) continued with:
"Are you arguing that because they portrayed monsters in pageants and
heraldry, they believed that they were real? That is clearly not a valid
argument: On the same basis, one would conclude that 20th century Americans
believe that Klingons and Teletubbies are real. "
You mean they aren't?
Besides, it's a "magic bag" not a purse.
-Gillean ab Lywellen
Thran Sloth
Lyle H. Gray
>Jay Rudin wrote:
>>
><snip>
>> So if you want to play some specific time and place and follow the rules
>> of a people who were less citified and cultured than the High Middle
>> Ages, then the SCA is a great place for it, and you won't get hassled
>> for it. But if you *don't* want to play a specific time and place, but
>> just be a "barbarian mercenary tribe" and make your own rules, then the
>> people trying to play the SCA game by historical research and the SCA
>> rules will be annoyed.
><snip>
>
> And then there's the Tuchuks...who seem to have successfully
>accomplished what Bosk is proposing, and have apparently read some of
>the same pulp fantasy novels.
You left out the part about the Tuchuks being a separate group (not
SCA)...
mittle
> > And then there's the Tuchuks...who seem to have successfully
> >accomplished what Bosk is proposing, and have apparently read some of
> >the same pulp fantasy novels.
>
> You left out the part about the Tuchuks being a separate group (not
> SCA)...
And the part about how an awful lot of Societyfolk think the Tuchuks don't
have any place at our events. (Not my opinion; I'm just reporting.)
BoskSCA
>have any place at our events. (Not my opinion; I'm just reporting.)
>
I know how that goes all too well. We get that opinion a lot but there is one
fact that many scadians either do not know or do not realize regarding the
Tuchux attending SCA events. As far as Pennsic goes, when it started the Tuchux
were an integral part of that event. Some might say they made the War what it
is today. They did a lot to contibute to the first years of Pennsic and
sometimes that goes overlooked because of some of the bad reputation they have
(but that is a whole other story). The point I am trying to make is yes they
may not be an accurate portrayal of any certain group or time period but they
should not be banned mainly from an event they helped to make. Here is
something some people might not know but it is a Tuchux way of looking at
Pennsic. You see, that group is based around the Coopers Lake area and the
vicinities (Ohio, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, etc..). They were here before
the SCA was and when the SCA came to this area to hold a War, well the Tuchux
looked at it as someone coming into their lands so they came to see what it was
all about. That is how they became involved basically. It is no ones fault that
the two groups don't play the same game exactly and neither should have to
conform to each others ways. Like was said by another, the Tuchux are not SCA
but to remove them from an event they did a lot to build because they are not
SCA is not right. There was a group camped next to us last year, Von Draken.
They were not SCA, they were from another recreation group in Pennsylvania (I
cannot remember the name). Now many of their rules were somewhat similar to the
SCA but not entirely but they were welcomed and even had a merchant tent and
they all had a great time. How do they differ from the non-SCA Tuchux (in
theory) from participating in events? Just food for thought. I hope some of
this helped. It is just another perspective on the whole situation.
Harold D Sherman
Cumhail <xcr...@pompano.net> wrote in article
<36DD89...@pompano.net>...
<snip>
> On the other side, we have the Great Dark Horde, who has arguably
> become the pentultimate "barbarian" horde, but has, for the most part,
> remained well and admirably within the guidelines that most of us use to
> define our Society.
<snip>
mittle
Greetings from Arval!
> As far as Pennsic goes, when it started the Tuchux were an integral part
> of that event. Some might say they made the War what it is today.
Quite true: They found the site for us and have always been part of the
event. Note that I didn't say that the Tuchuks have done nothing for the
Society; just that many Societyfolk think they don't fit into our game.
And that could be a legitimate opinion regardless of how much they
contribute to the Society. As I said earlier, good intentions don't change
the fact that two groups play different, and possibly incompatible games.
To complicate matters, from one side the two games may look obviously
entirely compatible while the other side sees them as obviously
incompatible.
Please note that I am not suggesting or advocating excluding anyone from
anything. I'm just reporting the facts.
mittle
Greetings from Arval! Gillean ab Lywellen wrote:
> I thought we were trying to portray "the middle ages as they should have been."
>
> Whatever that means.
I gotta admit I expected someone to come back with that line. As many
people here know, I think it's a terrible description for the game we play.
I've explained why in past threads; if you're interested, start a new
thread and I'll do it again. More important, though, it is not any
representation of official policy. It's just a cute catch-phrase that some
people use. It may be how you think of the game as you play it, but it
definitely does not fit the game as I play it. I'm re-creating the fun
parts of medieval culture.
ThranSloth
A> Greetings from Arval! Gillean ab Lywellen wrote:
G> I thought we were trying to portray "the middle ages as they should have
been."
G>
G> Whatever that means.
A>I gotta admit I expected someone to come back with that line. As many
A>people here know, I think it's a terrible description for the game we play.
A>I've explained why in past threads; if you're interested, start a new
A>thread and I'll do it again. More important, though, it is not any
A>representation of official policy. It's just a cute catch-phrase that some
A>people use. It may be how you think of the game as you play it, but it
A>definitely does not fit the game as I play it. I'm re-creating the fun
A>parts of medieval culture.
I didn't say that is how I play it.
Checking sca.org I get:
"You will frequently hear a SCA person describe the SCA as recreating the
Middle Ages "as they ought to have been." In some ways this is true -- we have
few plagues, indoor plumbing, few peasants. In the dead of winter we have other
things to eat than King's venison, salt pork and dried tubers. However, a
better description is that we selectively recreate medieval culture, choosing
elements of the culture that interest and attract us."
So I don't see any problem with people who decide that they want to have a
persona drawn from the Gauls. Or even the Native Americans. Or the Picts. Just
because the majority of the SCA is into tournaments, court, and such pagentry
doesn't mean that is all that existed in the Middle Ages, nor should it mean
that that is all that exists in the Current Middle Ages.
-Gillean ab Lywellen
Thran Sloth
Re-creating the fun parts of medieval culture