Sad news! King Osis killed in auto accident
phil reed {domain actually ic.net - reversed for anti-spam}
>His Majesty Osis of Ealdomere was killed today in an automobile accident
>while on the way home from Baron's War. Also killed were one of his
>squires and the squires lady. His squire Bubby survived. Funeral plans
>are still pending.
>
>Please give your prayers to Osis and to his lady, Catlin.
>
>Duke Comar and Dutchess Lisa
>
>
--
...phil
Copyright, Phillip C. Reed, 1999.
Naughty words: eWorks! OT7 AOL bomb Green Card hack phreak breast sex
PGP fingerprint = C5 41 B5 9E B4 56 0C C3 26 FC B9 ED BC D7 CA 8B
Andrea Hicks
people of Ealdomere.
--
Maridonna Benvenuti, Canton of Attillium, Windmaster's Hill, Atlantia
Per pale sable and Or ten crosses botonny counterchanged.
Fieldless, Per pale sable and Or a cross botonny.
Fieldless, Per pale sable and Or an eagle displayed.
If you have armory, display it at events!
Book clubs want me, libraries fear me.
Homepage: http://home.att.net/~maridonna/home.htm
Jen Conrad
after my first event, when I had spent all day in the kitchen helping with
the feast, when I met him. I had already changed into mundanes and was
helping to clean up the feast hall after the event when Osis called me over
to where he was talking with a few other gentles. He asked if I was one of
the people who worked on the feast. I answered that I was. He then told me
that the feast was one of the few things that went right for him that day
and then gave me a simple token on a ribbon in thanks for my work. He then
went into the kitchen to thank all of the other folks who helped out. This
token hangs around my AoA to this day.
He will be missed.
Prayers go to all his loved ones.
Lady Luveday Tyreman, AoA
Barony of Cynnabar
Pentamere, Midrealm
--
Coquo ergo sum ( I cook, therefore I am )
phil reed {domain actually ic.net - reversed for anti-spam} <p...@ten.ci>
wrote in message news:373f5...@news.ic.net...
BoskSCA
Although I do not know the persons involved I would like to send my
condolances to the families. I hope they fare well through their loss.
Bosk of the Clan Teaghlach
"Do what you will, cause harm to none"
Monferrati
His laughter and his noble heart will be missed.
Lord Oberto Monferrati
Barony of Cynnabar, Middle Kingdom
Anthony J. Bryant
shoulder, and the truck flipped.
Killed were King Osis and Lady Bernie. His squire, Bubba, was injured.
Effingham
--
"Every time (the president) talks about trust it makes chills run up and down my spine. The very idea that the word 'trust' could ever come out of his mouth after the way he has trampled on the truth is a travesty of the American political system."
--Bill Clinton, speaking of President George Bush, 1992
Outsider
the head and one arm. As Viscount Berus put it, the man is as tough as
nails.
Eirik
________
Anthony J. Bryant <ajbr...@indiana.edu> wrote in message
news:ajbryant-170...@dial-122-33.dial.indiana.edu...
TGress1062
Though I did not personally know HM Osis, I too mourn the loss an obviously
well- loved, and well-respected man.
My prayers are with his family and friends in this time of loss.
Morgan of Caer Graeme
Thom
The nice thing about liberty is, it works -- even if you're stupid.
Candle Jack
Toronto Sun newspaper.
My sincere condolences to the families of Craig and Bernie; Ealdornere
mourns your loss.
---
Monday, May 17, 1999-
"Two people on their way home to the Toronto area from a medieval-themed
camping trip died in a vehicle rollover yesterday.
Craig Cox, 32, of Richmond Hill was driving on Hwy. 401 near Chatham when
his Ford Ranger pick-up veered into the median around 3:50 p.m. Police said
Cox tried to wheel the truck back into its lane but lost control and the
truck rolled over into a roadside ditch.
Cox was not wearing his seatbelt and was flung from his truck. He was
pronounced dead at the scene. One of the two passengers, Bernadette
Steinhauser, 24, of Kitchener also died during the accident.
Another passenger, Jason C. Smith of Mississauga, was treated in hospital
for minor head injuries. "
--
Regards,
Jack
phil reed {domain actually ic.net - reversed for anti-spam} <p...@ten.ci>
wrote in message
Alessandra
We were at the event in Toledo and King Osis stopped by our encampment
(Ravenslake) on his way out of town. He was in great spirits and telling
jovial stories of his adventures with Bubba and how the three of them
barely fit into the truck. He was remembering Lady Lorissa's
cheesecake's she made for him in the past. We are all so shocked and
saddened by this terrible accident. Our thoughts and prayers are with
his loved ones.
Alessandra and Robert of Ravenslake
Wild Rabbit
greetings at this sad time.I'm sure we all agree that this tremendous
loss of our King and good friend effects us all greatly. My sincere
sympathies go out to his beautiful Lady, Caitlin and her boys, the
Herogan.If I can be of service in any way please contact me via this
e-mail address and I will be happy to be there.
Kam
Marcus MacFarlane
in the East Kingdom... Probably at Pennsic.
I send my sincerest condolances to all close to him. To his Squire, a
speedy recovery, and condolances also to him for the loss of his Lady
and their respectives families
They are in my prayers. I may have not of known them personally, but it
hurts to hear of sad losses among us.
A toast to them and their families - both Mundane and Scadian.
Cheers...
Marcus MacFarlane & Clan
Cheiftain & Laird
Clan...@HoTMaiL.com
Marcus MacFarlane
Clan...@HoTMaiL.com
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
Mark Hendershott
Just to pick out one significant line from the newspaper. "Cox was not
wearing his seatbelt". There's a reason they're in the car folks.
Simon von der Eisenhandlung
Summits, An Tir
Susan Carroll-Clark
This was posted to the Ealdormere mailing list by Lady Carolyn of Amberview.
I post it here in case any who knew or were touched by these gentles would
wish to send condolences or make a memorial gift.
Nicolaa de Bracton
***
It is with a sad heart that I post this to the list. Words cannot express
my grief.
For those of you unable to get to the newspapers, here are the obituaries
for both His Majesty Thorbjorn Osis, and the dear Lady Lauren.
COX, Craig C. _ Member of the Society for Creative Anachronism (OSIS).
Suddenly as the result of an accident on Sunday, May 16, 1999. Craig, dear
husband of Nancy Frankel. Loving son of Wib and Dawn of Peterborough.
Brother of Shawn and Cate, David and his wife Anne. Friends may call the
MARSHALL FUNERAL HOME, 10366 Yonge Street, Richmond Hill (four stoplights
north of Major Mackenzie Drive) on Wednesday 7-9 p.m. and Thursday after 11
a.m. with a Service to follow at 3 p.m. Donations may be made to the
Canadian Cancer Society in Craig's memory.
Date Posted: 19990518 (Ad ID: C236231)
STEINHAUSER, Bernadette Mary - Passed away, suddenly, on Sunday, May 16,
1999, in her 25th year. Loving and loved daughter of Mary and Fred
Steinhauser of Kitchener. Dearly loved sister of Michael and Matthew.
Cherished granddaughter of Mrs. Marianne Steinhauser of Toronto. Beloved
niece of Gerry and Diana Bavington, Cathy and Paul Faye, Sister Bernadette
O'Reilly, Paul and Michelle Bavington, Gus and Ingrid Steinhauser and Terry
and Marilyn Steinhauser. She will be sadly missed by her many cousins and
friends. Bernadette was a recent graduate of the University of Guelph in
Honours Applied Science, Gerontology. She was planning to attend the Faculty
of Education and fulfill her dream of becoming a teacher. She will always be
remembered for her strong spirit and her kind heart. Bernadette's family
will receive friends at the Ratz-Bechtel Funeral Home, 621 King St. W.,
Kitchener on Wednesday from 2-4 and 7-9 p.m. Parish prayers will be held,
Wednesday evening at the funeral home!
. On Thursday at 10:15 a.m. prayers will be offered from the funeral home,
followed by Mass of the Resurrection at 11 a.m. at Blessed Sacrament RC
Church, 305 Laurentian Dr., Kitchener, Father Larry Gillick, S.J.
officiating. Interment will follow in Williamsburg Cemetery, Kitchener. As
expressions of sympathy, memorial donations may be made to Rossbrook House
in Winnipeg and may be placed by contacting the funeral home at 745-9495.3
Kitchener-Waterloo Record, Area Code 519
Duncan VH
Tracy Schulman
(and was she also Osis' mundane wife.)
Aine
Zebee Johnstone
Duncan VH <dunc...@aol.com> wrote:
>I don't think this is a good time for a safety lesson. maybe I'm wrong.
When is a good time?
Seems to me that when you are going "damn! Why did a good man die?"
That is the time to say "because he thought that he could get away
without this precuation. He was wrong. What will you do when you
get in your car?"
If people realise that dying in a car accident isn't a thing
that only happens to strangers, then maybe they will spend just a little
more energy on protecting themselves. Meaning we don't have to go through
this again.
Many years ago, when I was a small easily brainwashed child, I made my
father put on his seatbelt before he left the farm to drive into town -
he usually didn't, but they were insistent about it at school. Half an
hour later when Mum and I left, we came across a car, upside downin a
ditch.... He was alive, hanging from his seatbelt.
Maybe an SCA person will read of Osis's death, note that the seatbelt
was not on, remember it when they get into the car, and be found
like Dad - hanging upside down and alive.
Silfren
--
Zebee Johnstone (ze...@zip.com.au) Proud holder of aus.motorcycles Poser Permit #1.
"You don't own an Italian motorcycle
- you merely have the privilege of paying its bills."
Hilary Doda
>
> I don't think this is a good time for a safety lesson. maybe I'm wrong.
On the contrary, I think that this is the best time for a safety
lesson. Often people don't believe that anything can happen to them or
their families. This kind of senseless tragedy is all too common, and
if even one person is saved from death or injury because of the
discussion here, it makes things a little less painful. If we refuse
to learn anything from it, then Osis's death will really have been
meaningless.
Apologies if that sounds harsh... I have lost family because of the
same situation.
WEAR SEATBELTS.
Joane Stweard,
Dragon Dormant.
Jay Rudin
> I don't think this is a good time for a safety lesson. maybe I'm
> wrong.
You're right -- it's not a good time. Last week would have been much
better. But next week might be an even worse time -- unless we all wear
our seatbelts.
Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
Matthew Saroff (Remove .123456 to reply)
>Cox was not wearing his seatbelt and was flung from his truck. He was
>pronounced dead at the scene. One of the two passengers, Bernadette
>Steinhauser, 24, of Kitchener also died during the accident.
Just a quick note to people out there: please wear seat
belts. They save lives, and I'm speaking from personal
experience.
--
--Sfi Mordehai ben Yosef Yitzhak, Aka Matthew G. Saroff
This is not the Dream. This is what I do on weekends to have
some fun.
The Dream involves 4 sets of identical twins, 2 gallons of Cool
Whip, 5 quarts of chocolate syrup, 2-1/4 pounds of strawberries,
satin sheets, a magnum of champagne, a trapeze, and a python.
Check http://www.pobox.com/~msaroff, including The Bad Hair Web Page
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes
Gregory Kirk
Saroff (Remove .123456 to reply)) wrote:
> Just a quick note to people out there: please wear seat
>belts. They save lives, and I'm speaking from personal
>experience.
>--
I fpersonal experience isn;t enough, just remember that the only
person to survuve the crash that killed Princess Diana was the only
person wearing a seatbelt, and the NTSB's studies have proven it over
and over again as well.
Buckle up, even for short trips.
Greg
Lorelai
Gods look down and weep at the loss.
His Majesty was a kind and dear man to so many. I remember meeting him
at Pennsic a few times, and even carded him at the gate at 2:30 in the
morning. He was one of rare humor, and always seemed to make time for
people.
To the Kingdom of Ealdomere, Her Majesty, and their beloved families, I
send sorrowful condolences.
Captain Sirena Merripan Baval Fabritzio
Privateer, Sea Witch
Kingdom of An Tir
--
Blessed is he who laughs
at himself for he shall never
be without entertainment.
@>---'----,-----------
Sandra W. Jaqua
Duncan VH wrote in message <19990518153858...@ng-cb1.aol.com>...
>I don't think this is a good time for a safety lesson. maybe I'm wrong.
When IS? I wouldn't be here if I hadn't been wearing one when I was 16.
Osis was looked up to by many, many people. If ANYTHING good can come
out of the tragedy of his death, maybe the wearing of a seatbelt by even one
person would be it. I can only hope his wife and family can find peace and
love thoughout their ordeal.
Allesaundra de Crosthwaite
Ygraineogf
>Duncan VH wrote:
>>
>> I don't think this is a good time for a safety lesson. maybe I'm wrong.
>
>
>On the contrary, I think that this is the best time for a safety
>lesson. Often people don't believe that anything can happen to them or
>their families. This kind of senseless tragedy is all too common, and
>if even one person is saved from death or injury because of the
>discussion here, it makes things a little less painful. If we refuse
>to learn anything from it, then Osis's death will really have been
>meaningless.
>
>Apologies if that sounds harsh... I have lost family because of the
>same situation.
>
>WEAR SEATBELTS.
>
>Joane Stweard,
>Dragon Dormant.
>
I agree that the message to wear seatbelts should be passed on, but I also
think that it could have waited at least until after the funerals.
Ygraine
Calafia, Caid
Ble mae'r tafarn agosta?
http://users.abac.com/markt/womenscamp/
Nerak
> wrong.
You're right -- it's not a good time. Last week would have been much
better. But next week might be an even worse time -- unless we all wear
our seatbelts.
Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin >>
Not only seat belts, but
Do you drive tired/sleepy?
Do you overload your vehicle?
Do you pack hard and sharp things where they can bounce around the passenger
compartment?
All of the above, individually and in combination have cost the lives of people
I knew and loved in the SCA.
Mistress Nerak
Atelveldt/Ansteorra/Meridies
Marcus MacFarlane
> I don't think this is a good time for a safety
> lesson. maybe I'm wrong.
Its both the wrong time and the right time; however, I will agree with
you that this is the wrong time.
Because all this sad accident shows is a 50/50 chance of survival with
a seatbelt. From reading the Obituaries and Articles, I gather that the
Lady was indeed wearing her seat belt and she still did not make it
through the rollover. Then again, his loose body may have contributed
to her injuries. It tells me that this accident was probably worse than
it was written up to be. No one will ever know... We can play the "What
If..." game until the end of time and still not know the true answer.
I had a mundane friend killed several years ago who was wearing his
seatbeat and the coroner said that it may have contributed to the extent
of his internal injuries.
I agree that this is not the right time, place, or example to use in
the seatbelt debate; however, I still wear mine and not because its the
law. Its an unfortunate accident, they will be sourly missed, and this
debate should NOT have come up in this thread.
So who really knows except them and the Lord above.
Duncan VH
would want to hear about is how he should have worn a seat belt. Maybe a little
time first, that's all I was saying.
I'm sorry I said anything. My mistake
Stephanie Fitzgerald
> I agree that the message to wear seatbelts should be passed on, but I
also
> think that it could have waited at least until after the funerals.
>
at this time. There are people's lives that are changed because Osis and
Bernie are not here anymore. And for Osis' squire, Bubba, who did survive
the crash, will be effected forever. I think we need to let everyone come
to terms with the lost first.
I more than anyone understand this. Approximately 4 weeks before the
Ealdormerian Crown Tournament (the one that Osis won), I had a minor in
comparison car accident that caused 14 stitches in my head and knee damage.
I was not wearing a seat belt. I had to not fight in the crown tournament
because my knee was still and still is sore. I watched all the fighters
from the sidelines including the final round that Osis won and realized
that it was all because of a simple mistake that could have costed my life.
But I now know this, I always wear my seat belt (100% of the time versus
the previous 90%). When I found out about this accident, I'm reminded me
of how lucky I am.
I think we need to give all of those effected (even minorly) a chance to
reflect on this. Mourn if necessary. Deal with the emotions. I think that
we can all read the news release and form our own opinion about seat belts.
Just realize that many people are effected by a tragic car accidents and
it often takes months to get over it.
Arwyn of Leicester
Ealdormere
Ygraineogf
JHrisoulas
>I agree that the message to wear seatbelts should be passed on, but I also
>think that it could have waited at least until after the funerals.
>
WHY?? I mean WHY should we wait. As a LEO I have scraped and mopped up the
dead, broken bodies of far too many people who died in TA's who would of been
still alive if they were belted in, or had their children in car seats. This
was a tragic death (name a TA fatality that isn't..) and well, as cold,
heartless and uncaring that this may seem right now, these folks died because
they were either too lazy, had the "It can't happen to me" attitude or simply
didn't care.
While nothing can change what had happened here, let this serve as a grim
reminder and a warning to all: WEAR THE BELTS. WEAR THEM AT ALL TIMES. It may
just SAVE YOUR LIFE....
Each minute and hour we delay in getting this warning out places others at
peril. No one can force someone else into doing this, but maybe, just maybe the
deaths of folks we know, know of or heard about within our group will wake some
folks up to the fact that what happened here could of been prevented by simply
buckling up the belt....
I may seem to be a bit cold, cruel and heartless about this, but this was a
preventable fatality and well, I have no sympathy for those who do this and end
up paying for their folly with their lives. However I am not without compassion
for those who must now deal with the grief and loss, all due to the fact that
somone wasn't thinking, and ended up a fatality simply because they didn't use
a simple piece of safety equipment. I have seen this far too many times.
Do yourself a favour, and all of us as well and wear the belts..They are there
for a reason...
Atar
Dr JP Hrisoulas,
Las Vegas, Nevada
Bladesmith, Metallographer, Researcher, Lecturer
Author:
"The Complete Bladesmith"
"The Master Bladesmith"
"The Pattern Welded Blade"
LtC, NVDoM
http://www.Atar.com
Wild Rabbit
crash,
please call Katherine @ (416) 749-5246. She opens her heart and doors to
all at this very sad time.
Chris K. Hepburn
On Tue, 18 May 1999, Gregory Kirk wrote:
snip
>
> Buckle up, even for short trips.
>
> Greg
Also, it's the *law*. It's been the law (in Ontario, anyway) for over
twenty years.
Chris
Chris K. Hepburn
don't cause anyone more pain.
Every single time I get into that car, I think about what a powerful thing
it truly is and the capacity it has for harm if not properly controlled.
Then I think about the thousands of other people, driving similar
machines, I will be in contact with throughout the day, and I pray this
isn't the day I happen to meet up with disaster because me or one of
those other drivers wasn't paying enough attention, or because the
weather turned really bad, or because somone's wheel fell off and crashed
through three lanes of traffic.
I know many people whose lives have been changed forever by auto
accidents. My best friend's parents were both killed when their van was
struck by a semi on the highway (the semi driver was asleep at the wheel).
You don't realize how profound an impact this has one someone's life until
you live with it, see the impact, and realize there are scars that will
never heal.
Driving is an inherently risky business and my intent is not to moralize
about it but...
Please, everyone, take care when you drive to that next event. Take all
the precautions you can before you leave, get a good night's sleep, wear
your seatbelt, ensure your car is in good shape because we *need* you to
arrive safe and sound.
My extreme condolences go out to the friends and family of Osis and
Bernie.
Chris
Michael Logue
Ygraineogf wrote in message
<19990519044736...@ng-co1.aol.com>...
:>dunc...@aol.com (Duncan VH) wrote:
:
:>My mistake. I guess if a close friend of mine died like this the last
thing I
:>would want to hear about is how he should have worn a seat belt. Maybe a
:>little
:>time first, that's all I was saying.
:>I'm sorry I said anything. My mistake
:>
:>
:
:Don't be sorry, I fully agree with you.
Ditto
Drud Cunnogwr
Heather Murphy
to insert into the debate a reminder that his Queen could well be reading
our discussion of his demise. Would she not, at this time, prefer to read
of the grief and regret of the Known World, and memories of King Osis, than
argument and speculation about why his death was unneccessary?
Humbly withdrawing back into obscurity,
Lady Jemma Blakeney
Candle Jack
friends and family of the deceased.
--
Regards,
Jack
Chris K. Hepburn wrote in message <7hujdq$g...@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>...
Fleursable
Frasier MacLeod send his most heart-felt greetings,
I met Osis a few years ago while I was living in the Barony of the
Rhydderich Hael, (Buffalo, NY). I had travelled to the Barony of Rising Waters
for the 9th Annual Lady Mary's Memorial Tournament. That was the first year
they were offering a fencing tournament, so I decided to day trip to the event
and have some fun.
I remember the first time I saw Osis. The first thought that crossed my
mind was "God that man is BIG." Osis wasn't fighting in the tournament because
he had injured his shoulder at work, and could not swing a stick effectively.
I watched him over the course of the day, and realized that his heart was truly
larger than the body containing it. Friendly, honorable, chivalrous, and above
all kind.
I was lucky enough to be victorious in that fencing tournament, and later
after court, Osis congragulated me on a job well done. To him I was a total
stranger, but to me this was a Good Thing. I returned to Rising Waters the
following year to "defend" my title as champion, and Osis was again there,
fighting this time. This was the first time I saw him fight, and I thought,
"God, don't ever let that man hit me."
Before the fighting started I wandered over to wish Osis good luck. He
remembered me from the year before, having only met me the one time. Now I was
truly impressed. He wished me luck also, and we went to our respective
tournaments. Well, it would seem that our wishes worked, for I again won the
fencing tournament, and Osis won the Heavy tournament. During court, we
congragulated one another on jobs well done, and had a beer together after. I
saw Osis a couple of more times after that. Then I moved home (Maine).
I am truly saddened to hear of his passing. If there is anything I can do
from my distant land, I would do so. Though I did not know Osis for long or
well, I would call him friend.
Don Frasier MacLeod
OGR(East), OWS(AEthelmearc)
Chris K. Hepburn
On
Dennis O'Connor
> Why don't you save the observations? Have a little consideration for the
> friends and family of the deceased.
You know, based on an average life span of about 24,000 days,
over 40,000 people died in China today. World-wide, about
a quarter-million people died, which is about 3 a second.
So, should we never discuss things like wearing seatbelts,
watching kids around pools, or not driving drunk, out
of consideration for the friends and family of a quarter
of a million people who died today ? After all, any of them
could be reading USENET, right ?
As a practical matter, I have no time to grieve for all the
people I do not know who die each day. When I grieve,
it means something, and it costs me something. So
grieve for who you will, but do not demand that others join in.
Life should not be danced to a dirge.
--
Dennis O'Connor dm...@primenet.com
Vanity Web Page: http://www.primenet.com/~dmoc/
Marcus MacFarlane
Amen!
Marcus MacFarlane
Clan...@HoTMaiL.com
Johnathan Xaviar Roy
First is my condolences to his the family and friends of the deceased. I am
myself guilty of driving without a seat belt (something I now ALWAYS use on
long trips). I am also guilty of having driven around dead tired. When
tired, we become as dangerous as being drunk. I now don't worry as much
about when I will get back and have been known to pull off the road and
catch a couple hours snooze rather than get into an accident. While I am
not saying that this was the cause of
HRM Osis' accident, I am saying that I have seen this pattern in my own
driving. Next time you are heading home after an event, please make sure
you are awake and buckled in.
>Toronto Sun newspaper.
>---
>Monday, May 17, 1999-
>
>"Two people on their way home to the Toronto area from a medieval-themed
>camping trip died in a vehicle rollover yesterday.
>
>Craig Cox, 32, of Richmond Hill was driving on Hwy. 401 near Chatham when
>his Ford Ranger pick-up veered into the median around 3:50 p.m. Police said
>Cox tried to wheel the truck back into its lane but lost control and the
>truck rolled over into a roadside ditch.
>
>Cox was not wearing his seatbelt and was flung from his truck. He was
>pronounced dead at the scene. One of the two passengers, Bernadette
>Steinhauser, 24, of Kitchener also died during the accident.
>
>Another passenger, Jason C. Smith of Mississauga, was treated in hospital
>for minor head injuries. "
>--
G la Gazza
you please.
I had never met, or even heard of the people involved in this tragic
incident until now, but I wish good thoughts towards the loved ones of those
killed. I do not think anyone who has taken this opputunity to press safety
concerns has meant ill will or disregard for the survivors. It often takes
tragedy to drive home a point (no matter if the point is or is not Directly
Relevant to the tragedy at hand). For example: My husband was eighteen when his
only and much loved brother was killed by a very reckless drunk driver. This
has shaped his life, and those around him, since he is adamant about himself
and others driving drunk. For another example: Two years ago on may 16th, I was
sleeping, laying down, in the back seat of our car during a long road trip. If
I had been (upright and) belted in, my personal tragedy may have been avoided.
We were in a minor car acident (loss of control), but when our car came to a
stop another car couldn't avoid hitting us broadside (in the center of the back
door). I was literally hit in the head with a Mercury Cougar. All 12 of my
thoracic vertabrae (the ones with the ribs attached) were shattered, and a
piece of bone partially severed my spinal cord. I was instantly and irrevokably
paralysed from the middle of my ribcage down. I was in surgery for 7 1/2 hours
when the anesthesiologist decided to pull me out. I feel lucky to be alive. I
never knew there was any danger in laying down in the back seat, and I have now
met another parapalegic who had her injury caused the same way! So now I extoll
all to remember this small lesson, and add it to their list of Driving Don'ts.
The Rialto is a common area for news and discussion. If this were a thread
intended as a condolence "card" devoted to the loved ones of the recently lost,
or if we were in their presence, yes, I agree that discussing auto safety
issues would be in very poor taste. But this is an open arena of frank
discussions, and loss of life has a way of teaching respect for life. I have
heard that a large percetage of auto accidents happen within a few miles of
your own home, so to the gentle who mentioned wearing their seatbelt "on long
trips", I suggest some consideration of short trips as well... And The
California Highway Patrol has a common saying among it's officers: "I have
never had to unbuckle a dead person."
I appreciate the use of space, and I thank those of you who have heard me
out. Again, I wish to never be able to say "I understand" to those who have
most recently lost their beloved, but I do say "I'm sorry".
Sincerely,
Vicountess Giuliana laGazza
Cynagua, West
Ysabeau
Speaking as two who knew King Osis, one briefly and one for more than 10 years,
thank you for pointing out what we had hoped others would realize on their own.
We had been crusing the Rialto looking for others like us, who had wonderful
memories of Osis to share, sadly, the "debate" of his death has for the moment
overshadowed the feats of his life.
Thank you for your keen insight, and your sympathetic heart.
Baron Hamish MacLeod Esq.
Baroness Ysabeau ferch Gwalchafed
EXCMairi
here in the East Kingdom - they were both very gracious to me personally. I
also remember fondly Great Court at Pennsic when Osis was king of the Mid.
TRM's of the East gave me my court baroncy and allowed my husband to make a
little speech to me. Osis made some crack, like 'aw, isn't that sweet', but
there were tears in his eyes as my husband said he loved me. I'll remember
that forever.
I have a habit of being rather cavalier about wearing my seatbelt (I even had a
nasty roll-over accident while not wearing one - I still am not careful enough
about it). But every time I have gotten into my car this week, I've thought to
myself, "for Osis", and buckled the damn thing.
Mairi (Barony of Bhakail, Kingdom of the East)
Default
>> friends and family of the deceased.
>>>> Buckle up, even for short trips.
If you buy the premise that telling people to buckle up will cause them
to do so, and thereby save their lives, doesn't it seem at best
misguided
to delay telling them? Especially when it's obvious that the nearness of
the object lesson makes the plea more compelling?
How many more people are you willing to get killed out of
'consideration'?
Goe...@pobox.com
Candle Jack
> So, should we never discuss things like wearing seatbelts,
> watching kids around pools, or not driving drunk, out
> of consideration for the friends and family of a quarter
> of a million people who died today ? After all, any of them
> could be reading USENET, right ?
Try to keep up Dennis, this thread is about two specific deaths. As an SCA
oriented NG it is reasonable to assume that friends of Os and Bernie will be
looking for funeral details, yes? If people wish to debate the value of
wearing seat belts, they should at least have the good taste to start
another thread. Is that too much to expect from the Society?
> As a practical matter, I have no time to grieve for all the
> people I do not know who die each day. When I grieve,
> it means something, and it costs me something. So
> grieve for who you will, but do not demand that others join in.
It's not a question of demanding others to grieve as much as it is an
expectation of some level of decorum. I think we can all agree that wearing
a seat belt is a good thing. What benefit is gained from countless "me too"
posts?
--
Regards,
Jack
Wendy something...
> If you buy the premise that telling people to buckle up will cause them
> to do so, and thereby save their lives, doesn't it seem at best
> misguided
> to delay telling them? Especially when it's obvious that the nearness of
> the object lesson makes the plea more compelling?
>
> How many more people are you willing to get killed out of
> 'consideration'?
>
> Goe...@pobox.com
The idea that seatbelts can save lives is not new. Suggesting that
someone is willing to get people killed is cheesy.
I like to think that we are adults, and can make our own decisions about
our safety. It is obvious to me to wear a seatbelt because of past
personal experience, so I do. I tell any children I happen to be
transporting to buckle-up, and if they ask why, I show them the scar I
have on my temple, and explain that I would be dead if I wasn't wearing my
seatbelt. Adults are not children, they know the risks, can decide
for themselves and don't need countless (and ill-timed) graphic lectures
on the subject.
I have a close friend who has been several nasty wrecks (semis, rollovers,
over cliffs, etc.) and has always walked away without a scratch. She
doesn't wear her seatbelt. Sure, seatbelts can increase your odds, but
the RFF (random...*ahem*.. factor) will win out.
Baroness Aindrea MacCullaich
al-Barran, Outlands
"Ignorance is not knowing anything and being attracted to the good.
Innocence is knowing everything and still being attracted to the good."
--Clarissa Pinkola-Estes
elie...@webtv.net
>If this were a thread intended as
>a condolence "card" devoted to
>the loved ones of the recently lost,
>or if we were in their presence,
>yes, I agree that discussing auto
>safety issues would be in very poor
>taste. But this is an open arena of
>frank discussions,
Thanks to Your Excellency for a very poignant and articulate post.
In response to those who worry that Her Majesty of Ealdormere may be
reading this thread, I say that few reigning Royalty have time for such
frivolity as the Rialto, and that I know for certain that a woman
recently widowed has far too much on her mind for such. It is likely
the posts of condolence are being printed or forwarded to her by a kind
and loving friend, who of course would never pass on something which
might upset Her Majesty.
The sad fact is that the Queen has far more sorrowful tasks before her.
My heart goes out to Her, Her Kingdom, and anyone for whom this accident
has brought back unpleasant memories of other deaths and injuries.
--Elfrida
Married life is a simpler life. Who I spend my time with is established
in advance.
Dennis O'Connor
> Dennis O'Connor <dm...@primenet.com> wrote in message news:7i0aog$e60
> > So, should we never discuss things like wearing seatbelts,
> > watching kids around pools, or not driving drunk, out
> > of consideration for the friends and family of a quarter
> > of a million people who died today ? After all, any of them
> > could be reading USENET, right ?
>
> Try to keep up Dennis, this thread is about two specific deaths.
For me, two complete strangers out of the quarter-million
that died that day.
> As an SCA oriented NG it is reasonable to assume that friends
> of Os and Bernie will be looking for funeral details, yes?
What, as opposed to being notified privately or through
mutual friends ? Seems an odd assumption to me.
And besides ...
>If people wish to debate the value of
> wearing seat belts, they should at least have the good taste to start
> another thread. Is that too much to expect from the Society?
Why ? THIS thread is about deaths in an auto accident,
so the discussion is apropos. The title of this thread
is not "Funeral details for ...". And besides, why didn't YOU
start a new thread about not posting seatbelt warnings ?
If you are going to preach, why not practice ?
> > As a practical matter, I have no time to grieve for all the
> > people I do not know who die each day. When I grieve,
> > it means something, and it costs me something. So
> > grieve for who you will, but do not demand that others join in.
>
> It's not a question of demanding others to grieve as much as it is an
> expectation of some level of decorum.
Like no stories about what retched rat-bastards the deceased
were ? No gloating by their enemies ? Sure, I'm all for THAT
level of decorum. But no-pleas-to-wear-seatbelts ? No,
that's taking it to far. "Sensitivity" can be taken to far.
> I think we can all agree that wearing a seat belt is a good thing.
Which "we" is that you claim to speak for "all" of ?
> What benefit is gained from countless "me too" posts?
What benefit is gained from your posts ? Since when has
USENET ever had a "what benefit" criteria ?
Bronwynmgn
him, but he impressed the heck out of me during the Pennsic at which he was
king of the Midrealm.
During Great Court, he called up the friends of a certain young lord. He then
explained to the assembled crowd that the young lord has recently been killed
in a traffic accident, I believe before he knew of the AOA he was supposed to
receive at that Pennsic. Osis took a ring off his own hand and gave it to the
young lord's friends, charging them to see it delivered to his mundane family,
and to make sure that the family knew how deeply the SCA had treasured their
son.
That is the kind of man we've lost.
Brangwayna Morgan
Bredin Zierd
>>while on the way home from Baron's War. Also killed were one of his
>>squires and the squires lady. His squire Bubby survived. Funeral plans
>>are still pending.
Comiserations to everybody involved, and to all those who knew those slain
on this foul day.
The King is dead. Long live the King...
--
When words fail try to look solemn
-Lord Zierd, Cynic of the Inner Circle
Candle Jack
> that died that day.
Then try to be considerate of those who did know the deceased. Not every
quiet moment needs your voice filling it.
> > As an SCA oriented NG it is reasonable to assume that friends
> > of Os and Bernie will be looking for funeral details, yes?
>
> What, as opposed to being notified privately or through
> mutual friends ? Seems an odd assumption to me.
Would you agree that this forum is an efficient way to notify a large number
of SCAdians? Osis was twice king of the Middle and current king of
Ealdormere; many beyond our borders knew him. Many would not have been
aware of his death if the announcement had come through other channels.
> Why ? THIS thread is about deaths in an auto accident,
> so the discussion is apropos. The title of this thread
> is not "Funeral details for ...". And besides, why didn't YOU
> start a new thread about not posting seatbelt warnings ?
> If you are going to preach, why not practice ?
THIS thread is about the death of two friends. That they died in a car
accident is irrelevant. If they had died from colon cancer, I suppose YOU
would say that the thread was about the dangers of eating too much red meat.
As it happens, some have started a thread called "The Seatbelt Debate".
Should you wish to continue this discussion, that is where I will be.
> Like no stories about what retched rat-bastards the deceased
> were ? No gloating by their enemies ? Sure, I'm all for THAT
> level of decorum. But no-pleas-to-wear-seatbelts ? No,
> that's taking it to far. "Sensitivity" can be taken to far.
You're not exactly overflowing with the milk of human kindness are you
Dennis? The pleas-to-wear-seatbelts are inappropriate in this thread. It
may not be a USENET rule, but it is the compassionate thing to do.
> > I think we can all agree that wearing a seat belt is a good thing.
>
> Which "we" is that you claim to speak for "all" of ?
Don't be deliberately obtuse Dennis.
> > What benefit is gained from countless "me too" posts?
>
> What benefit is gained from your posts ? Since when has
> USENET ever had a "what benefit" criteria ?
At one point I thought you a somehwat clever poster. Now I surmise that you
just like seeing your own name in print.
--
Regards,
Jack
Dennis O'Connor
> Dennis O'Connor <dm...@primenet.com> wrote in message
> > For me, two complete strangers out of the quarter-million
> > that died that day.
>
> Then try to be considerate of those who did know the deceased. Not every
> quiet moment needs your voice filling it.
But does need yours ? But mreo later ...
> > > As an SCA oriented NG it is reasonable to assume that friends
> > > of Os and Bernie will be looking for funeral details, yes?
> >
> > What, as opposed to being notified privately or through
> > mutual friends ? Seems an odd assumption to me.
>
> Would you agree that this forum is an efficient way to notify a large number
> of SCAdians?
"Efficient" as in free ? Of course, that's why spammers use it.
But it is unusual and discourages to see private events or
local events announced on this newsgroup. Otherwise the
ng would be flooded with birth, death, wedding etcetera
announcements. So, since the type of communication you
refer to is discouraged on the newsgroup, why look for it
here ? Oh wait: maybe you think this newsgroup should
treat Royalty specially. Maybe people who are hot sticks
_should_ be using this newsgroup to announce events in
their personal life. They are so *special* compared to
the rest of us, after all.
>Osis was twice king of the Middle and current king of
> Ealdormere; many beyond our borders knew him. Many would not have been
> aware of his death if the announcement had come through other channels.
Ah, I see: you DO think Royalty and Ex-Royalty should
use this newsgroup for things that common ordinary
people should not. Sorry, can't agree. USENET is not
part of the SCA, rec.org.sca is not part of the SCA, and
being an SCA Royal buys you no special favors here.
> > Why ? THIS thread is about deaths in an auto accident,
> > so the discussion is apropos. The title of this thread
> > is not "Funeral details for ...". And besides, why didn't YOU
> > start a new thread about not posting seatbelt warnings ?
> > If you are going to preach, why not practice ?
>
> THIS thread is about the death of two friends.
Two friends of whom? I doubt that the vast majority of
readers here were friends with them by any relevent
and meaningful definition of the word.
> That they died in a car accident is irrelevant.
Say who ? YOU ? Seems a few people disagree.
Given the large amount of effort you are expending to
try and censor those people, you'd better have a
better justifiaction for that statement than "because
I, 'Candle Jack', say so !"
> > Like no stories about what retched rat-bastards the deceased
> > were ? No gloating by their enemies ? Sure, I'm all for THAT
> > level of decorum. But no-pleas-to-wear-seatbelts ? No,
> > that's taking it to far. "Sensitivity" can be taken to far.
>
> You're not exactly overflowing with the milk of human
> kindness are you Dennis?
I knew some asshole would eventually make a crack like that.
Well, the people who know me well are all laughing at you.
However, I have a rep to protect, so hopefully none of
them will bother responding to your baseless accusation.
But you do seem to be losing it, "Jack": that's hardly
a well-reasoned argument opposing my position.
> > Which "we" is that you claim to speak for "all" of ?
>
> Don't be deliberately obtuse Dennis.
Don't make sweeping claims for groups of people
you can't possible represent, "Jack".
> > What benefit is gained from your posts ? Since when has
> > USENET ever had a "what benefit" criteria ?
>
> At one point I thought you a somehwat clever poster. Now I surmise that you
> just like seeing your own name in print.
Is that the best you can do ? Pathetic. Unable to counter
my arguments you resort to vacuous insult. Tsk tsk tsk.
Candle Jack
--
Regards,
Jack
Micaylah
Yes I am a "friend" to both Os and Bernie. Yes I came here looking for
some sort of solace as we buried two friends yesterday and I was not
able to attend. I have no closure yet for this so I came here to
perhaps hear some kind words for two people, or maybe just to identify
with a larger group who knew our friends. I open this thread up and
find it has denigrated to this. Thanks for the memories.
Dennis you need to get a grip. Jack you need to back off, you may have
a point but your just baiting this loser.
Oh ya, and Caitlin hopefully will not see these last few msgs even
though Baroness Hiethr is collecting them.
You got something to say about this....you email me at the following:
Micaylah na Clan fra Skye
Fire of the North
Kingdom of Ealdormere
David Friedman
<dm...@primenet.com> wrote:
>Ah, I see: you DO think Royalty and Ex-Royalty should
>use this newsgroup for things that common ordinary
>people should not. Sorry, can't agree. USENET is not
>part of the SCA, rec.org.sca is not part of the SCA, and
>being an SCA Royal buys you no special favors here.
I think I disagree with this particular part of your argument. Whether a
post is appropriate to a newsgroup surely depends in part on how many of
the readers of that group will be interested in it. The more prominent
someone has been in the SCA, the more people on this newsgroup are likely
to be interested to hear about events involving him, including his death.
Being royalty is one way of being prominent.
That isn't a "special favor" for royalty--not even in the case of (say) a
wedding or birth announcement, where, unlike this case, the royalty in
question is still around to be done favors. It is a benefit to readers of
the newsgroup. It is a benefit to those readers both in cases where the
information is information that the subject would like to have spread,
where it also benefits the subject, and in the opposite cases.
David/Cariadoc
Anthony J. Bryant
<bre...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> Comiserations to everybody involved, and to all those who knew those slain
> on this foul day.
Please, no hyperbole.
No on was *slain*. Two people were *killed* in an accident.
An accident likely caused by driving while tired. (Why else would the car
go up on the median or over the shoulder?) I've been there.
Effingham
--
"Every time (the president) talks about trust it makes chills run up and down my spine. The very idea that the word 'trust' could ever come out of his mouth after the way he has trampled on the truth is a travesty of the American political system."
--Bill Clinton, speaking of President George Bush, 1992
Anthony J. Bryant
> THIS thread is about the death of two friends. That they died in a car
> accident is irrelevant. If they had died from colon cancer, I suppose YOU
> would say that the thread was about the dangers of eating too much red meat.
> As it happens, some have started a thread called "The Seatbelt Debate".
> Should you wish to continue this discussion, that is where I will be.
No. If they died of old age or some congenital problem, no comment is
called for. If someone died of cancer, something which can often be
treated if caught early, I'd see nothing amiss by saying "please, people,
get your check-ups." I see that as the moral equivalent of "please,
people, wear your seatbealts."
Let's be realistic here.
We all want our lives to mean something to our friends. Osis's's and
Bernie's obviously did. If our deaths are to have meaning, we can only
hope that people benefit and learn from them. It's too late for Osis (I
don't know if Bernie wore hers), but maybe it's not too late for someone
else. If someone wears a seatbelt tonight because of this and lives
through a crash, the lesson of Osis's death will have saved someone else.
Dennis O'Connor
Micaylah <dy...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote in message
news:37458EEB...@freenet.carleton.ca...
> ALL RIGHT THAT'S ENOUGH!
Obviously not: at the least, you felt you needed to get
your two cents in. To bad you don't own this newsgroup.
> Yes I am a "friend" to both Os and Bernie. Yes I came here looking for
> some sort of solace
Well, I don't know you, I didn't know them. Any "solace"
I could offer you would be either platitudes or pretty lies.
Regardless, this is not rec.mourning. There are, in
fact, newsgroups more appropriate if you want comfort
from strangers. Give alt.callahan's a try.
> Dennis you need to get a grip.
That's pretty vague; uselessly vague in fact.
How was I supposed to constructively interpret
that ? Ah, perhaps it was just an emotional
outburst, and there really isn't mening in it.
>Jack you need to back off, you may have
> a point but your just baiting this loser.
Ah, so now you expect me to respect your desires,
eh ? Just when I'm thinking I've said what I wanted
to and can stop, some loser gives me an incentive
to continue. Here's a career hint, Micaylah : you're
not cut out to be a peacemaker. Gratuitous insults
aren't conducive to ending arguments. If you'd
asked POLITELY, I probably would have let it go.
But, you didn't. YOu got all superior, ordering
people around and insulting people. Maybe that
works for you where you live, but it doesn't work
on the Rialto, andit doesn't work with me period.
It's sad that you can't face the REALITY that the vast
majority of the people in the world do not know,
nor would care if they did, that these people died.
Your personal tragedy means nothing to them,
and nothing to me. They intend to do as they please,
as I do, your grief not withstanding. I was willing to
respect your grief while you respected my non-grief,
but I see now you can't do that. Your loss.
I'm not dishonest enough to pretend to care
when I don't. I am considerate enough to just be
relatively quiet, but since you've given me a
motive for speaking my mind:
You call me a "loser" ? Well, I've been in two
car wrecks that totaled the cars, and I'm still
a living breathing walking "loser", because I
was wearing my seatbelt, as I always do.
I prefer my brand of living "loser" to being
a dead or crippled "winner".
> You got something to say about this....
> you email me at the following:
You are a fool if you think I'll take orders
from you, Micaylah.
Dennis O'Connor
> The field is yours.
You're so _graceful_ in defeat, "Jack".
Yes, that is indeed more sarcasm.
Scott D. Free
I have been following this thread and finally felt the need to
respond.
Dennis,
I did not the King Osis and the others that died or were injured
in that accident but when the news was posted, I felt is was very nice
of that person to announce that one of our own had died in an
accident. I would also expect that if one of the founders of the SCA
were to die, someone would post that here.
I would not have known of King Osis death until the next
newsletter for AEthelmarc arrived and maybe not then. This forum
allowed the news to reach me much faster than the newsletter, which
arrives next week.
And I feel that the discussion on seatbelts is appro here. The
King died because of simple mistake and that mistake should be
corrected be other people who do not wear seat belts. 10 years ago, I
was i an accident wearing my seatbelt and I suffered some bruises. My
sister was not (it was broke) and she hit her head on the windshield
and got a rather nasty bump. If she had wor her seatbelt, she would
not have hit her head.
Thank you for taking the time to read this message.
Yours in Service,
David, Shire of Hunter's Home.
mka Scott Free
<------------------------------------------------------------------------------>
Michelle Groulx
>
>Well, I don't know you, I didn't know them. Any "solace"
>I could offer you would be either platitudes or pretty lies.
>Regardless, this is not rec.mourning. There are, in
>fact, newsgroups more appropriate if you want comfort
>from strangers. Give alt.callahan's a try.
You seem to be rather insensitive after all. Pardon my yelling. It is a
reaction from a week of not having my world right. Strangers though...I
think not. There are alot of people that I know on the rialto. Even several
ones I don't know have emailed me privately apologizing for your actions. To
bad you can't take a hint. Deep, you don't seem to be.
>That's pretty vague; uselessly vague in fact.
>How was I supposed to constructively interpret
>that ? Ah, perhaps it was just an emotional
>outburst, and there really isn't mening in it.
Figure it out for yourself.
>Here's a career hint, Micaylah : you're
>not cut out to be a peacemaker. Gratuitous insults
>aren't conducive to ending arguments. If you'd
>asked POLITELY, I probably would have let it go.
>But, you didn't. YOu got all superior, ordering
>people around and insulting people. Maybe that
>works for you where you live, but it doesn't work
>on the Rialto, andit doesn't work with me period.
Ordering people around??? No I was just yelling at you. Try not to read too
much into it. I give no hidden meanings.
>It's sad that you can't face the REALITY that the vast
>majority of the people in the world do not know,
>nor would care if they did, that these people died.
>Your personal tragedy means nothing to them,
>and nothing to me. They intend to do as they please,
>as I do, your grief not withstanding. I was willing to
>respect your grief while you respected my non-grief,
>but I see now you can't do that. Your loss.
Timing is everything. Understand? You non-greif is respected, just not
appreciated when flagrantly bandied about in light of everything. As for the
reality that not everyone knew the two gentles involved, well that sir is a
reality that you made sure to stuff in my face right now talking to someone
as insensitive as you. I wasn't asking you to grieve for someone you didn't
know, just show some respect for those of us that do.
>You call me a "loser" ? Well, I've been in two
>car wrecks that totaled the cars, and I'm still
>a living breathing walking "loser", because I
>was wearing my seatbelt, as I always do.
>I prefer my brand of living "loser" to being
>a dead or crippled "winner".
Just to set the record straight, Bernie WAS wearing her seatbelt. I too have
been in several car accidents. Don't think for a minute you are the only
person on the face of the planet that has been there, done that.
>> You got something to say about this....
>> you email me at the following:
Afraid to hash this out privately or do you need the backup of the Rialto?
Nevermind, its not worth it.
Micaylah
jim mccolm
It is a pity that a time, for those who knew Osis & Bernie, to grieve
and remember was reduce to a bickering match over seat belts. Seat
belts make sense and might have prevented this tragedy, however, we will
never know. Now please us stop and reflect that the loss of anyone
within the SCA family affects many, especially when they have had such a
significant influence as Os had.
Many of us Ealdormerians are now slowly coming to grips with what it
means to lose you King. Osis was many things, but whether you agreed
with him or not it was clear he sincerely wanted what he felt was best
for both his young Kingdom and the SCA itself.
Tell stories to allow us to share the qualities of the man who was our
Third Prince, then twice King of the Middle, and finally our Second King.
For me I will remember and respect him for his and Timothy's efforts,
back at XXVII, to make the war a truly fun one and diminish the hard
feeling that had been developing. Sitting at the pub with him after a
fight practice and listening to him talk about how he felt that his
responsibility was to create an atmosphere that allowed people to enjoy
themselves. The sincerity that he showed at that time gave me a measure
of who Osis was and a quiet respect that has held even when I disagreed
with him.
Regretfully, over some minor "political" stuff I rashly posted a harsh
note about a decision made by Osis and Queen Caitlin. I was going to
apologize at "the right time." I waited too long.
For the rest of you, please post your "Os" stories. Up here in the
North Lands they'll be appreciated.
Raffe
arch...@earthlink.net
<dm...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>It's sad that you can't face the REALITY that the vast
>majority of the people in the world do not know,
>nor would care if they did, that these people died.
>Your personal tragedy means nothing to them,
>and nothing to me. They intend to do as they please,
>as I do, your grief not withstanding. I was willing to
>respect your grief while you respected my non-grief,
>but I see now you can't do that. Your loss.
>
>I'm not dishonest enough to pretend to care
>when I don't. I am considerate enough to just be
>relatively quiet, but since you've given me a
>motive for speaking my mind:
>
<snipped>
Okay, by your own conclusions, if you die from something we should be
able to say anything we want about you, right? No need to mourn cause
I didn't know you. No big loss to the world. But it would be a big
loss to some people close to you. Most of us aren't slamming you
because you started posting about seatbelts, just the way it was done.
It should have been continued as a new thread. I'm not trying to flame
you, just trying to get some peace. As a relative newcomer to the SCA,
I didn't know Osis either but many of my friends in the Northern
Outpost did, and they were grieving.
As for the royalty getting special favors thing, it's not so much a
special favor as the simple and incontrovertible fact that royalty
usually knows many more people than the average SCA'er. When you're
royalty. you almost always end up travelling between kindoms and hence
become better known than most people. I'm from the Northern Outpost in
the East Kingdom but most of the group here knew Osis, even though he
wasn't from here. Some of us aren't on the mailing lists so how would
we have known? Personal letters or e-mails from the aggrieved? I don't
think so. They have much more important things on their mind at the
time.
As I said, I'm not trying to flame you, just asking you to tone it
down a little. By your actions in continuing this flame war, you're
shaming yourself and your group. This is not what the Society is
supposed to be about.
Just my 2 cents.
Cormac Munroe
To reply, e-mail me at Realml...@hotmail.com.removethis
Bredin Zierd
Anthony J. Bryant wrote in message ...
>In article <7i38l6$m8r$1...@newsource.ihug.co.nz>, "Bredin Zierd"
><bre...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
>> Comiserations to everybody involved, and to all those who knew those
slain
>> on this foul day.
>
>
>Please, no hyperbole.
>
>
>No on was *slain*. Two people were *killed* in an accident.
>
>An accident likely caused by driving while tired. (Why else would the car
>go up on the median or over the shoulder?) I've been there.
In which case I apologise for expressing my commiserations. It will never
happen again...
--
Religion is the necropolis of Gods
Dennis O'Connor
> Dennis,
> I did not the King Osis and the others that died or were injured
> in that accident but when the news was posted, I felt is was very nice
> of that person to announce that one of our own had died in an
> accident. I would also expect that if one of the founders of the SCA
> were to die, someone would post that here.
Did I object at the time ? No. Such announcements aren't
enough hassle to worry about. But I strongly object to the
people who think that they have the right to tell other people
not to mention seatbelt safety on this newsgroup, or that
deride others for being insensitive or rude for doing so.
Dennis O'Connor
<arch...@earthlink.net> wrote ...
> On Fri, 21 May 1999 22:36:18 -0700, "Dennis O'Connor"
> >majority of the people in the world do not know,
> >nor would care if they did, that these people died.
> >Your personal tragedy means nothing to them,
> >and nothing to me. They intend to do as they please,
> >as I do, your grief not withstanding. I was willing to
> >respect your grief while you respected my non-grief,
> >but I see now you can't do that. Your loss.
> >
> >I'm not dishonest enough to pretend to care
> >when I don't. I am considerate enough to just be
> >relatively quiet, but since you've given me a
> >motive for speaking my mind:
> >
> <snipped>
>
> Okay, by your own conclusions, if you die from something we should be
> able to say anything we want about you, right?
Whether I am living or dead, you have that right. While
living, the law gives me recourse if what you say is untrue
and defamatory.
> No need to mourn cause I didn't know you.
Exactly. How many of the quarter-million people who
die every day do you know ? How many do you mourn ?
> Most of us aren't slamming you because you started
> posting about seatbelts,
You might want to check old messages: I didn't post about
seatbelts, I posted about people slamming people who
posted about seatbelts. It's a signifcant difference.
> As I said, I'm not trying to flame you,
And you suceeded in not doing so, so far ...
> just asking you to tone it down a little.
That depends on what other people post.
> By your actions in continuing this flame war, you're
> shaming yourself
[ And there's the end of your attempt not to flame.
Oh well, you seem like the type of person who is
thoughtful and able to learn, so I expect you will
learn to do better eventually. But anyway ... ]
Not in my value system, I'm not. That you might
think so in your value system is irrelevant.
> and your group.
BZZZT. Sorry, wrong, thank you for playing. "My group",
however you define it, has no control over and no
responsibility for any of my actions, just as the kingdom of
Ealdamore (sp?) is not responsible for the avoidable
behavior that led to the car wreck that killed King Osis.
> This is not what the Society is supposed to be about.
Really ? How's that ?
Dennis O'Connor
what is nothing more than a personal attack on me ...
> Dennis O'Connor wrote in message <7i5fpg$4lh$1...@nnrp02.primenet.com>...
> >
> >Well, I don't know you, I didn't know them. Any "solace"
> >I could offer you would be either platitudes or pretty lies.
> >Regardless, this is not rec.mourning. There are, in
> >fact, newsgroups more appropriate if you want comfort
> >from strangers. Give alt.callahan's a try.
>
> You seem to be rather insensitive after all.
Why ? Because the death of a quarter million strangers
every day doesn't bother me ? Or because the death of
these two particular strangers doesn't bother me ?
Whatever, it hasn't prevented me from having a
wonderful marriage for 16 years. So I can't be
all _that_ insensitive, can I ?
> Pardon my yelling. It is a
> reaction from a week of not having my world right.
Lame excuse. Where's the honor in attacking someone
just because you're having a bad week, especially when
it's not just a momentary outburst, but is instead a long
posting to the newsgroup that took quite a while to write ?
That's the kind of thing I expect only pathetic losers to do.
> Strangers though...I think not. There are alot of people that I
> know on the rialto. Even several ones I don't know have emailed
> me privately apologizing for your actions.
How completely assinine and innapropriate of them.
If you'd give me a list of these presumptuous jackasses,
I'd appreciate it. I doubt any of them are my friends, hell,
behavior like that pretty much _guarantees_ they aren't.
> To bad you can't take a hint. Deep, you don't seem to be.
LOL. You not only have no clue, you have no clue that
you have no clue. You're clueless and meta-clueless.
> >That's pretty vague; uselessly vague in fact.
> >How was I supposed to constructively interpret
> >that ? Ah, perhaps it was just an emotional
> >outburst, and there really isn't mening in it.
>
> Figure it out for yourself.
Ah, but there's not enough information (in fact there's
no information), so there is nothing to figure out. So,
let's just score it as a tantrum and move one.
> >Here's a career hint, Micaylah : you're
> >not cut out to be a peacemaker. Gratuitous insults
> >aren't conducive to ending arguments. If you'd
> >asked POLITELY, I probably would have let it go.
> >But, you didn't. YOu got all superior, ordering
> >people around and insulting people. Maybe that
> >works for you where you live, but it doesn't work
> >on the Rialto, andit doesn't work with me period.
>
> Ordering people around???
"get a grip" and "if you want to reply to this do it in email"
sound like commands to most if not all sane English
speaking people. Do you disagree ?
> No I was just yelling at you.
(Sarcasm) Oh, sorry, I couldn't tell the volume.
So, you're basically saying you are poor at
communicating your intent via the written word.
That's a common enough failing.
> Try not to read too
> much into it. I give no hidden meanings.
I never said you did. But now I see that you are
very bad at writing what you mean. Given that,
perhaps paying much attention at all to what
you write is a waste of effort. Beyond not have
any hidden meaning, your words apparantly
don't even mean what you intend them to mean.
Is this yet another example of a failure in the
educational system ?
> >It's sad that you can't face the REALITY that the vast
> >majority of the people in the world do not know,
> >nor would care if they did, that these people died.
> >Your personal tragedy means nothing to them,
> >and nothing to me. They intend to do as they please,
> >as I do, your grief not withstanding. I was willing to
> >respect your grief while you respected my non-grief,
> >but I see now you can't do that. Your loss.
>
> Timing is everything. Understand?
Depends. What is it you think you mean when you write
that ? I don't want to waste bandwidth replying to
something that does not mean what you think it means.
> >You call me a "loser" ? Well, I've been in two
> >car wrecks that totaled the cars, and I'm still
> >a living breathing walking "loser", because I
> >was wearing my seatbelt, as I always do.
> >I prefer my brand of living "loser" to being
> >a dead or crippled "winner".
>
> Just to set the record straight, Bernie WAS wearing her seatbelt. I too have
> been in several car accidents. Don't think for a minute you are the only
> person on the face of the planet that has been there, done that.
WAI*. Where do I say "Bernie was not wearing a seatbelt" ?
Where do I imply I'm the only person that ever was in a car
accident ? There's apparantly two sides to your communciation
disability: not only can you not write what you mean, but you
don't seem able to get the meaning of what others write, either.
> >> You got something to say about this....
> >> you email me at the following:
>
> Afraid to hash this out privately or do you need the backup of the Rialto?
"Backup" ? From the Rialto ? ME ??? ROTFLMAO.
> Nevermind, its not worth it.
And yet you spent all this effort posting. Hardly self-
consistent. Perhaps this is just another example of
the communication disability of yours.
--
Dennis O'Connor dm...@primenet.com
Vanity Web Page: http://www.primenet.com/~dmoc/
*definition: WAI = What an Idiot
David Friedman
>As I said, I'm not trying to flame you, just asking you to tone it
>down a little. By your actions in continuing this flame war, you're
>shaming yourself and your group.
I would have said that a post which accuses someone of shaming himself is
a flame. A nice example of the difference between how things look when you
are writing them and when you are reading them. It reminds me of the
explanation of how to conjugate an adjective:
A am strong minded
You are stubborn
He is pigheaded.
--
David Friedman
DD...@Best.com
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/
LM Jane Boyko
Dennis, can you please let this go? I would appreciate it as would a number
of others as can be viewed by the various postings. Can everyone just let
this flame war go. Perhaps the best way to stop it is to ignore the
tasteless crass comments that Dennis it sending forth. He seems to enjoy
aggravting people and insulting them (notice the postings to "losers in
common"). The slams that have been directed at Micaylah at time when many
people, including Micaylah, have been trying to come to terms with a
tragedy are in poor taste and only discredit the posters.
Dennis you want your non-grief to be respected on a list where it seems a
large number of people want to express their grief in a way that they are
able to share it over long distances. If you want to us to respect you
why do you keep posting insulting, mean posts. People have accused you of
being insensitive. Perhaps to your friends and family you aren't but the
way you slam everyone for responding to your posts, and you are really
quite insulting, suggests a lack of common courtesy and respect for those
who are wishing to grieve together and are only able to do this via the
rialto. Perhaps a new thread can be started for those who want to grieve
for Osis and Bernie. Perhaps it is time to let this thread go and get
back to the game that brought us all to the rialto in the first place.
I attended the visitation for Osis. I have said my good-byes to him and
shared the sorrow of his family. Only time can heal the soreness of our
hearts.
Jane Boyko
"Dennis O'Connor" (dm...@primenet.com) writes:
> <arch...@earthlink.net> wrote ...
>> On Fri, 21 May 1999 22:36:18 -0700, "Dennis O'Connor"
>> >It's sad that you can't face the REALITY that the vast
>> >majority of the people in the world do not know,
>> >nor would care if they did, that these people died.
>> >Your personal tragedy means nothing to them,
>> >and nothing to me. They intend to do as they please,
>> >as I do, your grief not withstanding. I was willing to
>> >respect your grief while you respected my non-grief,
>> >but I see now you can't do that. Your loss.
>> >
>> >I'm not dishonest enough to pretend to care
>> >when I don't. I am considerate enough to just be
>> >relatively quiet, but since you've given me a
>> >motive for speaking my mind:
>> >
>> <snipped>
>>
>> Okay, by your own conclusions, if you die from something we should be
>> able to say anything we want about you, right?
>
> Whether I am living or dead, you have that right. While
> living, the law gives me recourse if what you say is untrue
> and defamatory.
>
>> No need to mourn cause I didn't know you.
>
> Exactly. How many of the quarter-million people who
> die every day do you know ? How many do you mourn ?
>
>> Most of us aren't slamming you because you started
>> posting about seatbelts,
>
> You might want to check old messages: I didn't post about
> seatbelts, I posted about people slamming people who
> posted about seatbelts. It's a signifcant difference.
>
>> As I said, I'm not trying to flame you,
>
> And you suceeded in not doing so, so far ...
>
>> just asking you to tone it down a little.
>
> That depends on what other people post.
>
>> By your actions in continuing this flame war, you're
>> shaming yourself
>
> [ And there's the end of your attempt not to flame.
> Oh well, you seem like the type of person who is
> thoughtful and able to learn, so I expect you will
> learn to do better eventually. But anyway ... ]
>
> Not in my value system, I'm not. That you might
> think so in your value system is irrelevant.
>
>> and your group.
>
> BZZZT. Sorry, wrong, thank you for playing. "My group",
> however you define it, has no control over and no
> responsibility for any of my actions, just as the kingdom of
> Ealdamore (sp?) is not responsible for the avoidable
> behavior that led to the car wreck that killed King Osis.
>
>> This is not what the Society is supposed to be about.
>
> Really ? How's that ?
Dennis O'Connor
news:7i9hp6$7...@freenet-news.carleton.ca...
>
> Dennis, can you please let this go?
Well, let's see ..
> Perhaps the best way to stop it is to ignore the
> tasteless crass comments that Dennis it sending forth.
Survey says: NO. Jane, too, it seems, has no future
in the conflict-resolution industry. She too seems to believe
you can negotiate a peace while hurling insults at people.
(Where do people learn this, I wonder ?)
> He seems to enjoy
> aggravting people and insulting them (notice the postings to "losers in
> common"). The slams that have been directed at Micaylah at time when many
> people, including Micaylah, have been trying to come to terms with a
> tragedy are in poor taste and only discredit the posters.
The fact that Micaylah started the thread with a post that is
full of personal attacks on me seems to not matter to you.
Is it okay for Micaylah to attack me but not okay for me to
counter those attacks ? Or does it just that Micaylah is
relatively incompetent and ineffective when he tries to
flame, and I am not ? Is that what bothers you : that I'm
GOOD at flaming people ?
> Dennis you want your non-grief to be respected on a list
> where it seems a large number of people want to express their grief
"Large number of people" ? DIdn't seem large to me.
It seems to me (though I haven't bothered to count the
posts, I must admit) that a larger number of people seem
to want to talk about seatbelts and to talk about talking
about seatbelts and to talk about tlaking about talking
about seatbelsts (which is what this thread is doing).
> If you want to us to respect you why do you keep
> posting insulting, mean posts.
Well, you're a complete stranger who has already
demonstarted an inability to be fair-minded and
analytical. Why would I care who or what someone
like you respects ? BTW, do you respect the people
who have posted mean and/or insulting posts about me ?
(Which is close to asking if you have any self-respect,
BTW.) If so, your "respect" seems worthlessly arbitrary.
> People have accused you of being insensitive. Perhaps to your friends
> and family you aren't but the way you slam everyone for responding
I haved slammed people for their personal attacks on myself and on
other people in this group. They attack me, I counter-attack. What
exactly is your complaint with that ? (other than being a current
target of it, of course) Why aren't you bothered with the attacks
they (and you) make on me ? (I could of course speculate, but
none of that speculation would reflect positively on you.)
> to your posts, and you are really quite insulting,
Thank you. That WAS the point, you know. And I've spent
years honing my skill at the written insult.
> suggests a lack of common courtesy and respect for those
> who are wishing to grieve together
I haven't flamed anyone for grieveing. I've flamed people
for being self-appointed net.courtesy.police, and I've flamed
people for flaming. Which of those two things (being a net.cop
or flaming) do you think are appropriate ? (Note that I am
generously assuming you _can_ think, out of courtesy. )
> Perhaps it is time to let this thread go and get back to
> the game that brought us all to the rialto in the first place.
If that's your intent, I have to wonder how you thought
hurling insults and sermons at me was going to
help accomplish it. ( Again, I am assuming you did
think about that when you posted, but I could be wrong.)
Anthony J. Bryant
<bre...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> >> Comiserations to everybody involved, and to all those who knew those
> slain
> >No one was *slain*. Two people were *killed* in an accident.
> In which case I apologise for expressing my commiserations. It will never
> happen again...
It has nothing to do with commiserations; it's accuracy. To be slain, one
needs a second party to do the slaying.
Spuddie
said:
>Dennis, can you please let this go?
The only way to end this argument/flame war is for everyone to just
drop it. It takes at least two to tango....if no one responds and
Dennis wishes to keep blithering about the subject to himself, I guess
that's his business. Being a proponent of free speech, I'd never feel
it my right to tell him to stop posting what he wants. That doesn't
mean I have to actually *read* what he says, though. I personally
have no problem just skipping his posts, and if you really want him to
stop, my suggestion from past experience with situations like this is
to do the same. If you're unable to read his posts and not react, just
don't read them....asking him to stop just feeds into whatever
adolescent part of his brain is kicked into gear at this particular
time.
Ignore him. Plain and simple.
Cheryl
~~~Life is like a ten speed bike. Most of us have gears we
never use.~~~ (Charles Schulz)
Brian
> Just to set the record straight, Bernie WAS wearing her seatbelt. I too have
> been in several car accidents. Don't think for a minute you are the only
> person on the face of the planet that has been there, done that.
I have remained silent through this, till now.
First, My condolences to the family and friends of King Osis. I did not
know him, but any sensless death is a loss to us all.
As far as seatbelts go, (putting on firefighter and extrication team
member helmet) Whether or not he was wearing a seatbelt is completely
irrelevant. As wonderfull as seatbelts are, they are not the end all and
be all of automotive safety. Neither are airbags, or even the two used
together. They are wonderfull, and many people have lived through
serious accidents that would have not been so lucky years ago, but they
do not make you invincible.
My experiences at automotive accidents and other tragic situations has
reinforced in me the belief that when your time is up, thats all there
is. All the safety equipment, best medical tech and minds, and anything
else short of whatever god you believe in, isnt going to help.
In service to humanity,
Brian Gilman
AKIS
Elric the Wanderer
Brian
> An accident likely caused by driving while tired. (Why else would the car
> go up on the median or over the shoulder?) I've been there.
>
> Effingham
Ice.
Bad weather.
Bad driver in another car.
Swerving to miss something in the road.
Use your imagination sir, and I think you can expand the list of 'whys'
that could apply.
Malachias Invictus
>Michelle Groulx wrote:
>
>> Just to set the record straight, Bernie WAS wearing her seatbelt. I too
have
>> been in several car accidents. Don't think for a minute you are the only
>> person on the face of the planet that has been there, done that.
>
>I have remained silent through this, till now.
>First, My condolences to the family and friends of King Osis. I did not
>know him, but any sensless death is a loss to us all.
>As far as seatbelts go, (putting on firefighter and extrication team
>member helmet) Whether or not he was wearing a seatbelt is >completely
irrelevant.
A more asinine statement has rarely been made. "Completely irrelevant?"
Remind me to have you teach automotive safety classes at my kids' school.
In my experiences in the field, I have seen countless deaths, maimings, and
paralysing injuries that could have easily been prevented by the simple use
of a seat belt. If you have done any significant amount of fieldwork, you
have too. Perhaps it is time for you to take off your helmet and review
some of the safety statistics you were doubtless exposed to during your
training.
>As wonderfull as seatbelts are, they are not the end all and
>be all of automotive safety.
I do not recall anyone here stating that they were.
>Neither are airbags, or even the two used together. They are
>wonderfull, and many people have lived through serious accidents
>that would have not been so lucky years ago, but they do not make
>you invincible.
Therefore, whether or not one wears a seatbelt is completely irrelevant?
>My experiences at automotive accidents and other tragic situations
>has reinforced in me the belief that when your time is up, thats all
>there is. All the safety equipment, best medical tech and minds, and
>anything else short of whatever god you believe in, isnt going to help.
Why bother having hospitals, then? Or ambulances, for that matter? After
all, if Fate wanted you to survive, it would find a way to make it happen,
right? I guess that, instead of playing the odds by taking reasonable
precautions, we should just throw caution to the wind. After all, "when
your time is up, thats all there is."
>In service to humanity,
>Brian Gilman
>AKIS
>Elric the Wanderer
Herr Malachias von Morgenstern
Captain of the Galatea
Danegeld Tor/Cynagua/West
D.K. Wickstrom and Camille Wood
>
> (LM Jane Boyko)
> said:
>
> >Dennis, can you please let this go?
>
> The only way to end this argument/flame war is for everyone to just
> drop it. It takes at least two to tango....if no one responds and
> Dennis wishes to keep blithering about the subject to himself, I guess
> that's his business. Being a proponent of free speech, I'd never feel
> it my right to tell him to stop posting what he wants. That doesn't
> mean I have to actually *read* what he says, though. I personally
> have no problem just skipping his posts, and if you really want him to
> stop, my suggestion from past experience with situations like this is
> to do the same. If you're unable to read his posts and not react, just
> don't read them....asking him to stop just feeds into whatever
> adolescent part of his brain is kicked into gear at this particular
> time.
>
> Ignore him. Plain and simple.
If you want Dennis (or anyone, for that matter) to stop doing something
that distresses you, why not just politely ask? How do you think that
throwing snide and insulting comments at him, however obliquely, will do
*anything* but keep the flames stoked high? It's not the people showing
courtesy and restraint that Dennis is responding to; it's the posts like
yours. Really, doesn't the phrase "As ye sow, so shall ye reap" ring a
bell?
--
DK Wickstrom, ska Morgan d’Antioche
DarkHeart Armoury-- http://www.darkheartarmoury.com
"...a tradition of Fine, Custom Armour since last Tuesday."
David Friedman
<X...@X.com> wrote:
>Perhaps it is time for you to take off your helmet and review
>some of the safety statistics you were doubtless exposed to during your
>training.
I agree with the rest of what the poster is saying, but I suggest that a
good deal of skepticism is in order with regard to statistics that one is
exposed to during training--i.e. statistics being used to persuade you of
something, in a context where there is nobody arguing the other side. I
have seen lots of cases, in a variety of contexts, where people
confidently believe that there is overwhelming statistical evidence for
something, not because it is true but because they have heard only one
side of the argument.
To take this particular example ... . Did your training include any
discussion of Sam Peltzman's statistical work on the effect of safety
devices--which I believe was, at least at the time it was done, far and
away the most statistically sophisticated study of the question that had
been done? His conclusion was that the reduction in deaths per accident
due to safer cars was roughly balanced by the increase in accidents due to
people who knew that their cars were safer driving a little less carefully
as a result, leaving total death rates about the same. That isn't an
argument against wearing a seatbelt, of course, since you can choose to
both wear it and drive carefully--but it is an argument against accepting
standard safety statistics at face value.
Spuddie
<cdw...@micron.net> said:
>Spuddie wrote:
>>
>> (LM Jane Boyko)
>> said:
>>
>> >Dennis, can you please let this go?
>>
>> The only way to end this argument/flame war is for everyone to just
>> drop it.
<snip>
>> Ignore him. Plain and simple.
>
> If you want Dennis (or anyone, for that matter) to stop doing something
>that distresses you, why not just politely ask? How do you think that
>throwing snide and insulting comments at him, however obliquely, will do
>*anything* but keep the flames stoked high? It's not the people showing
>courtesy and restraint that Dennis is responding to; it's the posts like
>yours. Really, doesn't the phrase "As ye sow, so shall ye reap" ring a
>bell?
>--
>DK Wickstrom, ska Morgan d但ntioche
The person who posted before me DID ask Dennis (politely, I thought)
to stop. Several others have also done so and he's responded with
snide and sarcastic comments. (Perhaps *he* is reaping what he's
sowing?) Obviously asking nicely is not working, because he thrives on
the negative reaction, so it seems. Personally speaking, as I said
above, I could care less whether he stops or not because after reading
a few of them, I started skipping his posts....I was just making a
suggestion to those who ARE bothered by his posts.
Cheryl
~~~Everybody laughs in the same language~~~
Anthony J. Bryant
<bre...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> Why are you arguing semantics? with yourself I might add?
I'm not; I'm responding to someone who said they had "been slain."
> thinking about it, you could call the car the second party, since (as youve
> said) 'slain' implies 'by something'...
Hardly. That's not how it works.
Effingham
Who agrees that this is getting rediculous
Anthony J. Bryant
> Ice.
> Bad weather.
> Bad driver in another car.
> Swerving to miss something in the road.
> Use your imagination sir, and I think you can expand the list of 'whys'
> that could apply.
I *doubt* there was ice on the road two weeks ago. The weather wasn't
reported as bad. No other cars were cited in the report as being involved
in any way.
As for something in the road: THAT is a possibility.
Effingham
Grhardh
I was indeed saddened when this was announnced unto the people of the Society.
What saddens me more is the legacy that has been left behind, of the hundreds
of posts to this thread I have read but three tales of this Kings kindness,
inspiration, courage, honour, et al. If needful start a new thread, I for one
enjoy reading about what is right within the Society we hold dear, that they
are gone makes it bittersweet, but we are sometimes loath to speak publicly of
others finer momments lest we sound as if we wish to gain in the telling.
Please share the tales of compassion and chivelry of all, not just those who
have no chances remaining. It is what makes this Society so great and being
here so worthwhile,and this bridge is a wonderful place to share with those
hundreds or even thousand of miles removed.
As I remain of service,
Gerhard Helmbrecht von Offenbach-Caid
Dennis O'Connor
Spuddie <spu...@guinness.com> wrote in message
news:37498f38...@news.skypoint.com...
> On Mon, 24 May 1999 09:18:36 +0000, "D.K. Wickstrom and Camille Wood"
> <cdw...@micron.net> said:
> > If you want Dennis (or anyone, for that matter) to stop doing something
> >that distresses you, why not just politely ask?
>
> to stop.
Was that person (LM Jane Boyko) who posted:
] Perhaps the best way to stop it is to ignore the
] tasteless crass comments that Dennis it sending forth. [...]
] He seems to enjoy aggravating people and insulting them [...]
] If you want to us to respect you why do you keep
] posting insulting, mean posts. [...]
or Archmagi's
/ By your actions in continuing this flame war, you're
/ shaming yourself
or Micaylah's:
| Dennis you need to get a grip. Jack you need to back off,
| you may have a point but your just baiting this loser.
If you think any of the above comments are polite
when uttered in a public forum, perhaps you should
have your politeness-meter recalibrated.
> (Perhaps *he* is reaping what he's sowing?)
No, I sow the whirlwind and reap little dust-devils.
> Obviously asking nicely is not working, because he thrives on
> the negative reaction, so it seems.
No, it's because the people who have asked, like you,
seem to not know how to ask politely. Lesson 1:
don't hurl insults while asking nicely.
> Personally speaking, as I said
> above, I could care less whether he stops or not
Yet you spent the bandwidth to post twice ... interesting.
Fortunately for all of us, the vast majority of people
who don't care about something also don't post about
it. But for that, imminent death of USENET predicted...
> because after reading
> a few of them, I started skipping his posts
Ah, so you now confess to not even knowing what you
are talking about. You presume to judge me when
you haven't even read my posts ? Bad form IMHO.
Malachias Invictus
David Friedman wrote in message ...
>In article <7ib719$h...@journal.concentric.net>, "Malachias Invictus"
><X...@X.com> wrote:
>
>>Perhaps it is time for you to take off your helmet and review
>>some of the safety statistics you were doubtless exposed to during your
>>training.
>
>I agree with the rest of what the poster is saying, but I suggest that a
>good deal of skepticism is in order with regard to statistics that one
>is exposed to during training--i.e. statistics being used to persuade
>you of something, in a context where there is nobody arguing the
>other side.
I agree, in general, with your statement above. However, in my training
classes, there was quite a bit of discussion about whether or not safety
belts, air bags, and motorcycle helmets actually prevent
fatalities/injuries. I was actually quite surprised to find out how much
they _don't_ protect against.
>I have seen lots of cases, in a variety of contexts, where people
>confidently believe that there is overwhelming statistical evidence for
>something, not because it is true but because they have heard only
>one side of the argument.
>
>To take this particular example ... . Did your training include any
>discussion of Sam Peltzman's statistical work on the effect of safety
>devices--which I believe was, at least at the time it was done, far and
>away the most statistically sophisticated study of the question that
>had been done?
If I recall correctly, one of the volunteer fire guys (in for a re-cert)
brought some excerpts from this study in the class. I am not certain that
it was Mr. Peltzman's study, but it seems to fit your description below. We
also looked at CODES, FARS, CDS, and numerous other pieces of alphabet soup.
Although they did not always agree, none of them supported in any way the
statement made by "Brian Gilman AKIS Elric the Wanderer" that "As far as
seatbelts go, (putting on firefighter and extrication team member helmet)
Whether or not he was wearing a seatbelt is completely irrelevant." My
personal experiences in the field do not support it either.
> His conclusion was that the reduction in deaths per accident
>due to safer cars was roughly balanced by the increase in accidents >due to
people who knew that their cars were safer driving a little less >carefully
as a result, leaving total death rates about the same. That >isn't an
argument against wearing a seatbelt, of course, since you
>can choose to both wear it and drive carefully--but it is an argument
>against accepting standard safety statistics at face value.
>--
>David Friedman
By the way, I love your _Miscellany_ (or, rather, His Grace Cariadoc's ;)
Bredin Zierd
>In article <7i8en3$35d$5...@newsource.ihug.co.nz>, "Bredin Zierd"
><bre...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>> >> Comiserations to everybody involved, and to all those who knew those
>> slain
>
>> >No one was *slain*. Two people were *killed* in an accident.
>
>
>> In which case I apologise for expressing my commiserations. It will never
>> happen again...
>
>
>It has nothing to do with commiserations; it's accuracy. To be slain, one
>needs a second party to do the slaying.
Why are you arguing semantics? with yourself I might add?
thinking about it, you could call the car the second party, since (as youve
said) 'slain' implies 'by something'...
--
Bredin Zierd
>In article <3747dc84...@news.earthlink.net>, arch...@earthlink.net
wrote:
>
>>As I said, I'm not trying to flame you, just asking you to tone it
>>down a little. By your actions in continuing this flame war, you're
>>shaming yourself and your group.
>
>I would have said that a post which accuses someone of shaming himself is
>a flame. A nice example of the difference between how things look when you
>are writing them and when you are reading them. It reminds me of the
>explanation of how to conjugate an adjective:
>
>A am strong minded
>You are stubborn
>He is pigheaded.
I thought it was:
I am erotic
You are kinky
He is sick
Grhardh
Yes upon further thought I did change the header, pray forgive
Gerhard
Brian
> Although they did not always agree, none of them supported in any way the
> statement made by "Brian Gilman AKIS Elric the Wanderer" that "As far as
> seatbelts go, (putting on firefighter and extrication team member helmet)
> Whether or not he was wearing a seatbelt is completely irrelevant." My
> personal experiences in the field do not support it either.
I was basing my comment on the little bit of description of the accident
I had at the time. The way it sounded, I doubted whether it would have
mattered whether seatbelts had been worn or not.
I also meant that since two people died, even if they were worn, the
arguement of whether they did wear them or not was irrelevant.
Sorry I did not make this clear in my earlier posts
I agree (and have seen many accidents to support it) that seatbelts and
airbags do save many lives. But strange as it may seem, I have also seen
situations were they have aggravated the injuries or contributed to the
deaths.
Elric
John G. Austen
my thanks for such a succinct message. I new Osis well. In the SCA he was
like my brother. It nauseates me that there are so many sanctimonious
individuals whose narcissistic needs seem to outweigh the tact and grace that
common decency demands. We lost a dear friend. Period. How is completely
irrelevant. No amount of preaching is going to change that fact and frankly,
regardless of those poor souls intentions, any discussions regarding the
suppositions of why are completely in the worst of taste, especially at this
time.
I'll miss you Os. You were one of the few who truly "got it".
John (John of slaughterfield)
Heather Murphy wrote:
> Although I did not have the honor of knowing His Majesty, I feel compelled
> to insert into the debate a reminder that his Queen could well be reading
> our discussion of his demise. Would she not, at this time, prefer to read
> of the grief and regret of the Known World, and memories of King Osis, than
> argument and speculation about why his death was unneccessary?
>
> Humbly withdrawing back into obscurity,
>
> Lady Jemma Blakeney
John G. Austen
I pity you. I suspect that you've won no friends here today. As one of the
many friends of Osis whose feelings you so arbitrarily dismiss, I throw my support
whole heartedly behind Jack's premise.
I wish you the same level of disrespect you show to us and look forward to the
entertainment value of the deserved berations I expect will come your way.
John
Dennis O'Connor wrote:
> Candle Jack <no...@all.com> wrote ...
> > Dennis O'Connor <dm...@primenet.com> wrote in message
> > > For me, two complete strangers out of the quarter-million
> > > that died that day.
> >
> > Then try to be considerate of those who did know the deceased. Not every
> > quiet moment needs your voice filling it.
>
> But does need yours ? But mreo later ...
>
> > > > As an SCA oriented NG it is reasonable to assume that friends
> > > > of Os and Bernie will be looking for funeral details, yes?
> > >
> > > What, as opposed to being notified privately or through
> > > mutual friends ? Seems an odd assumption to me.
> >
> > Would you agree that this forum is an efficient way to notify a large number
> > of SCAdians?
>
> "Efficient" as in free ? Of course, that's why spammers use it.
> But it is unusual and discourages to see private events or
> local events announced on this newsgroup. Otherwise the
> ng would be flooded with birth, death, wedding etcetera
> announcements. So, since the type of communication you
> refer to is discouraged on the newsgroup, why look for it
> here ? Oh wait: maybe you think this newsgroup should
> treat Royalty specially. Maybe people who are hot sticks
> _should_ be using this newsgroup to announce events in
> their personal life. They are so *special* compared to
> the rest of us, after all.
>
> >Osis was twice king of the Middle and current king of
> > Ealdormere; many beyond our borders knew him. Many would not have been
> > aware of his death if the announcement had come through other channels.
>
> Ah, I see: you DO think Royalty and Ex-Royalty should
> use this newsgroup for things that common ordinary
> people should not. Sorry, can't agree. USENET is not
> part of the SCA, rec.org.sca is not part of the SCA, and
> being an SCA Royal buys you no special favors here.
>
> > > Why ? THIS thread is about deaths in an auto accident,
> > > so the discussion is apropos. The title of this thread
> > > is not "Funeral details for ...". And besides, why didn't YOU
> > > start a new thread about not posting seatbelt warnings ?
> > > If you are going to preach, why not practice ?
> >
> > THIS thread is about the death of two friends.
>
> Two friends of whom? I doubt that the vast majority of
> readers here were friends with them by any relevent
> and meaningful definition of the word.
>
> > That they died in a car accident is irrelevant.
>
> Say who ? YOU ? Seems a few people disagree.
> Given the large amount of effort you are expending to
> try and censor those people, you'd better have a
> better justifiaction for that statement than "because
> I, 'Candle Jack', say so !"
>
> > > Like no stories about what retched rat-bastards the deceased
> > > were ? No gloating by their enemies ? Sure, I'm all for THAT
> > > level of decorum. But no-pleas-to-wear-seatbelts ? No,
> > > that's taking it to far. "Sensitivity" can be taken to far.
> >
> > You're not exactly overflowing with the milk of human
> > kindness are you Dennis?
>
> I knew some asshole would eventually make a crack like that.
> Well, the people who know me well are all laughing at you.
> However, I have a rep to protect, so hopefully none of
> them will bother responding to your baseless accusation.
> But you do seem to be losing it, "Jack": that's hardly
> a well-reasoned argument opposing my position.
>
> > > Which "we" is that you claim to speak for "all" of ?
> >
> > Don't be deliberately obtuse Dennis.
>
> Don't make sweeping claims for groups of people
> you can't possible represent, "Jack".
>
> > > What benefit is gained from your posts ? Since when has
> > > USENET ever had a "what benefit" criteria ?
> >
> > At one point I thought you a somehwat clever poster. Now I surmise that you
> > just like seeing your own name in print.
>
> Is that the best you can do ? Pathetic. Unable to counter
> my arguments you resort to vacuous insult. Tsk tsk tsk.
John G. Austen
Dennis O'Connor wrote:
<snip>aren't conducive to ending arguments. If you'd asked POLITELY, I
probably would have let it go.But, you didn't. YOu got all superior,
ordering people around and insulting People. Maybe that.... <end snip>
Politely?!?!?!?! Man, what a hypocrite !!!!
john
Dennis O'Connor
John G. Austen <jg.a...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3755E290...@sympatico.ca...
> Dennis,
> I pity you.
Actually, John, I pity you: what kind of complete idiot re-opens a
flame-war that's been dead for over a week, posts _twice_ to it,
includes all the article he is responding to without actually
addressing any of its contents, doesn't even bother to read
all the posts in the thread before doing so, and has nothing
original to say to boot !
> I suspect that you've won no friends here today.
I'm pretty sure that no one among the real friends Osis
had will thank you for resurrecting this thread.
> As one of the many friends of Osis whose feelings you so
> arbitrarily dismiss,
DId YOU consider the feelings of Osis' friends and family
before you decided that this thread needed to start up again ?
Do you think they want to read, again, about how their friend
may have been responsible for his own death and that of
an innocent passenger ? Somehow I doubt it.
> I wish you the same level of disrespect you show to us
Which "us" are you referring to ? The unthinking people
like you who just have to have their say, even if the thread
has been dead for a while, and even if it causes more pain
to the people he claims are his friends ? Well, I don't
respect unthinking people like you, and whether unthinking
people like you respect me is not something I worry about.
> and look forward to the entertainment value
Ah, I see: you're willing to subject all of Osis's friends
and family to more grief just to get some cheap thrills.
How low can you go, John ?
Dennis O'Connor
John, what with this and your other two recent posts where you
resurrect these threads after all the original principles had
let it drop, you _do_ seem to be, well, less than wise, at least.
Have _I_ asked anyone to stop arguing in this thread ? No.
So is whether I asked POLITELY or not an issue ? Of course not.
So am I a hypocrite ? No one with two neurons to rub together
needs me to answer that one, the answer is so very obvious.
Do _you_ need me to answer it, John ?
Dennis O'Connor
> whose narcissistic needs seem to outweigh the tact and grace that
> common decency demands.
Well, common practice on USENET is to not try and restart
long-dead flame wars just to get your own sanctimonious
two bits in, John.
> We lost a dear friend. Period. How is completely irrelevant.
Au contraire. If for example someone loses their life in a
noble cause, such as a firefighter or soldier who loses
their life in the line of duty, then that is very relevant. The
cause of death only seems "irrelevant" when it is somewhat
embarrassing to the person who died, such as when it is
due to their own carelessness or foolishness.
> any discussions regarding the suppositions of why are
> completely in the worst of taste, especially at this time.
Yet here you are discussing it, John. Perhaps what
you meant to say was"Any postings that disagrees with
John G. Austin's opinions on this matter are in poor taste" ?
Or perhaps the hypocracy of your postings escapes you ?