Norse Maids (long)
Brent Kellmer
In my earlier postings it may have come across that I was saying that
norse warrior maids were a common occurrence -- pray forgive me -- I
certainly didnt' mean such a thing. Warrior maids were undoubtably the
exception (by far) rather than the rule -- I was merely trying to point
out that they probably _did_ occur.
The commentary that this is a threat to the population is a myth, and
(I'm afraid), not a very good one. First of all, only a very small
proportion of the male population of Scandanavia went a-viking. Local
raids would have been more common than overseas trips, but by and large,
the VAST majority of viking-era norse were farmers, traders, trappers and
the like. Of the few that did take up the sword (Lets be _really_
generous and say 10% of the adult male population) and let's further say
that they were matched by a few warrior maids (I'll get to why they might
go in a moment). Assuming all of those warrior maids who went were
killed or otherwise rendered ineligible for population growth, the
_entire_ Scandanavian area would be out a couple of hundred women over
the course of a century. Far from the 20% that was being discussed.
Further, Iceland mah have had a population problem at this time, but the
rest of the Northlands certainly didn't -- population pressure has in
fact been often cited as a contributing factor to the intial viking
expansion (along with "Hey Sven -- you know what we could do with these
new boat-thingies?")
As to the subject of possible norse maids directly:
In response to my references to the "Waking of Angantyr" (Hervararsaga),
Cariadoc most correctly observes:
"The eddic poems are not sagas. The reason that matters is that the
sagas are mostly quite realistic, matter-of-fact prose accounts,
histories, and historical novels. The eddic poems are mythology. . .
While his point is well taken, I beg to differ in a couple of areas: The
sagas, while certainly more realistic, probably more accurate, and
certainly more readable than the eddic poems are _not_ good historical
accounts. They _are_ as Cariadoc said, "historical novels," written
150-200 years AFTER the end of the viking period (late 12th - mid 13th
century). In many cases, they are undoubtably reflective of earlier
events, even in the case of unknown figures (as opposed to Harald
Finehair and his ilk). But think about how inaccurate in details our
common (even detailed) knowledge of the American revolutionary period
is. Same difference except that we have encyclopedias. The eddas, on
the other hand, aren't even close to being historically accurate. But
they are still helpful. They aren't all mythology -- certainly many of
them are -- the ones about Odin, Thor, et al. are obvious examples. Many
of the otehrs -- those about Sigured, Helgi Hundingsbana, etc. are not
mythology, but rather heroic legends. The differentiation is important.
While heroic legends may or may not be loosely based on fact (be
realistic -- DID Fafnir _really_ exist?), they are held up as examples by
the society that produces them. While your average norse farmer
certainly can't hope to match Odin or Thor, he/she can certainly aspire
to be another Sigured or Brynhild, REGARDLESS of the poem's origin. The
difference between this and, say, the Amazons of ancient Greece is that
the Amazons were considered to be people from somewhere else (the
infamous "others"), whereas Sigurd, Helgi, Brynhild, et al. are our
forebearers as vikings. This tradition of female warriors (Signe,
Gudrun, Brynhild in the eddic poems alone) would certainly make it easier
for an occasional maiden to take up the sword.
As was pointed out before, the sagas (and much of the eddic poems, I
believe, as well as nearly all of the skaldic repetoire) are west norse
in origin, and so may or may not be reflective of eastern norse
tradition. Unfortunately, there is a dirth of literary sources from the
east. What we do have (that Thorvald brought up) are instances of a
couple of female graves with weapons in them from Finland and Livonia.
It's probably not coincidence that both these are east norse sites. The
absence of more substantiation may be attributed to two possibilities
(assuming, of course, there is more substantiation out there): 1) The
former Soviet government was openly opposed to the idea of a strong norse
influence on the early Rus and so possible sites may be unexcavated or
misclassified; and 2) The moslem cultures of the area in particular made
a habit of exhuming the bodies of vikings in order to get at their
weapons, which were considered far superior to their own. There's no
reason why this wouldn't have happened to a female grave if found. These
may explain why other examples haven't been found, along with the fact
that we will have excavated only a very small fraction of possible sites.
However, negative evidence doesn't make a case. There is in fact very
little evidence on the matter at all (as has been pointed out numerous
times.) Ibn Fadlan certainly doesn't mention norse maids wearing armour
-- the Byzantines do, however.
Ellis-Davidson in _The Viking Road to Byzantium_ (p. 114) talks about
this with "Cedrenus [a Byzantine chronicler] also mentions that after one
of the fiercest battles, the Greeks discovered the bodies of Rus women on
the field. . ." Gunnora noted this in an earlier posting, commenting on
the possibility that they could be local tribes or others. According to
the text, they are specifically identified as Rus (which may or may not
be accurate), in the train of Svyatoslav, prince of Kiev (reigned c.
962-972). If they are not Swedes, then they (Svyatoslav's troops,
although admittedly not necessarily the women mentioned) are at least
influenced by them. Some of the actions described resemble norse customs
(the sacrifices, etc.) and one of their battle commanders goes by the
name of Ingvar. Gunnora also points out that they may in fact be camp
followers. Unfortunately the text isn't clear here (and we're only
dealing with a secondary source, remember). However, on p. 311-2,
Ellis-Davidson goes on to say:
"Thus, although John Scylitzes [another byzantine chronicler]
stated that women's bodies in fighting attire were found among
the dead in Svyatoslav's forces after a battle on the Danube,
and the tradition of women fighting in battle is certainly prominent
in the _Fornaldar Sogur_, it would be unwise to assume eastern
influence [for the original idea, i.e. from the Sarmations] without
stronger evidence."
Contrary to Gunnara's comments, E-D is _not_ questioning the identity of
these women, but rather the eastern (as in far eastern) origin of such a
tradition. While I would certainly agree that female warriors among the
eastern norse (or at least among the Rus) was never the norm, her
comments "No Norse Warrior Women" and her reference to the concept as
"not socially desired or accepted" are gross generalizations.
The case for Norse warrior maids isn't particularly strong -- that much
is certain. There are certainly not the documented cases as can be found
even in the medieval period (although several of Alfonso's examples were
"generals" rather than "fighters.") However, the heroic tradition
certainly existed for them and while they would undoubtably have been
exceedingly uncommon, there does seem to be considerable circumstantial
evidence that they could have existed. Justification enough for a
persona, I'd say.
A last aside: Gunnora's posting of her references was great. Here at
the University of Washington, we're on interim and the library hours are
severely cut down, but I'm looking forward to diving into them when the
quarter begins again. Thanks for posting them.
--Sasha
2LT Aryeh JS Nusbacher
> Warrior maids were undoubtably the
> exception (by far) rather than the rule -- I was merely trying to point
> out that they probably _did_ occur.
Accompanied by a thunderous silence with respect to evidence.
> The commentary that this is a threat to the population is a myth, and
> (I'm afraid), not a very good one. First of all, only a very small
> proportion of the male population of Scandanavia went a-viking. Local
> raids would have been more common than overseas trips, but by and large,
> the VAST majority of viking-era norse were farmers, traders, trappers and
> the like.
So you're saying that mediaeval Scandanavia was characterised by a low
military-participation ratio; and that these farmers, traders, trappers
and the like were constrained by demarcation of trade from working as
soldiers.
> Of the few that did take up the sword (Lets be _really_
> generous and say 10% of the adult male population)
This does not seem very generous at all. Try making up a different figure,
or supporting it with evidence.
> and let's further say
> that they were matched by a few warrior maids
Do they have to be maids in the technical sense of being _virgo intacta_?
And by what evidence to you conjure up the existence of these maids?
> (I'll get to why they might
> go in a moment). Assuming all of those warrior maids who went were
> killed or otherwise rendered ineligible for population growth, the
> _entire_ Scandanavian area would be out a couple of hundred women over
> the course of a century.
You're making this up.
> This tradition of female warriors (Signe,
> Gudrun, Brynhild in the eddic poems alone) would certainly make it easier
> for an occasional maiden to take up the sword.
But there's no evidence that they did.
> 1) The
> former Soviet government was openly opposed to the idea of a strong norse
> influence on the early Rus and so possible sites may be unexcavated or
> misclassified; and 2) The moslem cultures of the area in particular made
> a habit of exhuming the bodies of vikings in order to get at their
> weapons, which were considered far superior to their own. There's no
> reason why this wouldn't have happened to a female grave if found. These
> may explain why other examples haven't been found, along with the fact
> that we will have excavated only a very small fraction of possible sites.
So there would have been evidence, but there isn't.
If only the Soviet regime hadn't suppressed all the three-armed Rus skeletons,
and those primitive muslims hadn't scarfed up all the assault rifles from
the grave sites...
> The case for Norse warrior maids isn't particularly strong -- that much
> is certain.
"Is very weak" might be a better way of putting it.
> ... while they would undoubtably have been
> exceedingly uncommon, there does seem to be considerable circumstantial
> evidence that they could have existed. Justification enough for a
> persona, I'd say.
Oh ... why didn't you say that was your standard? Heck, she could be an
elf-Viking-warrior maiden...
And people wonder why the SCA gets scoffed at...
I wonder why I find myself replying to this thread in such a sour tone.
Perhaps it's the apparent desire to be credulous and uncritical that I've
seen in some of the postings: the feeling that if you use enough cool
terms -- "maid", "the Way of the Sword" -- and are willing enough to
believe that fairy tales are true; then you can prove that Scandanavian
women were more likely than their sisters across Europe to encroach on
those fields of endeavour which their societies reserved for men. It
seems an unproductive way to turn one's energies, when the ways _real_ women
participated in mediaeval European society could use some good investigation,
and in the living-history context, re-creation.
Aryk Nusbacher
DDuperault
Nusbacher) writes:
A whole lot of stuff....
Which has nothing to do with me not being able to get mail
through to his new account....
Dawn
2LT Aryeh JS Nusbacher
difficulty in replying to my posts. The most effective email
address just now seems to be
Aryk Nusbacher
Pamala Parr
Okay, I was not about to edit the incredible web to which I am
replying.
Let it suffice that to gentles are arguing over whether or not
Norse 'maidens' ever fought in war.
At home I have a book, and in that book (tis a museum catalogue)
is a description of a female grave that contained among other
things a rather lovely sword. It was in Finland somewhere.
I will atempt to remember to look up the specifics.
Carolus Malvoix
Jennifer Geard
Re: Norse women fighting
Attn: Aryk
You're right. And it does get frustrating, dunnit.
While we're at it, though, I may as well point out that the remains of the
bodies in viking graves are often somewhat difficult to sex after all these
years, and that in the majority of cases where there is no intact pelvis the
graves are sexed on the basis of the grave goods. If the grave has oval
brooches it "must" have been a woman's grave, and weapons indicate that the
burial was of a man. The grave-find evidence that is used to show that there
were no women warriors presupposes that there were no women warriors.
I don't take issue with your findings, but I have some doubts about the
usefulness of burial finds in this matter unless the method of grave-sexing
is known. I recall a couple of graves (hardly a sign of warrior hordes)
which were perplexing for containing the goods associated with both sexes,
and which didn't seem to be double graves of a woman and a man (the usual
explanation offered).
In fine, the evidence is flawed. Even making allowance for the flaws, the
conclusion seems firm.
Pagan/Signe
==/==\==/==\==/==\==/==\==/==\==/==\==/==\==/==\==/==\==/==\==/==\==/==\==
Jennifer Geard blood...@sloth.equinox.gen.nz
Christchurch, New Zealand
T. Viljanen
>
>Okay, I was not about to edit the incredible web to which I am
>replying.
>Let it suffice that to gentles are arguing over whether or not
>Norse 'maidens' ever fought in war.
>At home I have a book, and in that book (tis a museum catalogue)
>is a description of a female grave that contained among other
>things a rather lovely sword. It was in Finland somewhere.
Did the bones of the particular female in question have any signs
of weapon practise or wounds ? That is the only sure-fire way to
be ascertained whether or not the lady in question ever *wielded*
that sword. It may be that she was just a tribal chieftainess and
the sword had been her rank symbol or symbol of power.
One swallow doesn't make summer; just one grave of a particular
noblewoman does not prove in a way or another that it was "usual
for Norse maidens to pick up the way of sword". There are *very*
little indications that Norse women ever fought unless in desperate
situation. Besides, pre-Christian Inner Finland was not a part of
Norse cultural sphere.
--
** Tuomas Viljanen ** For a battle like Crecy you do **
** Lahderanta 20 A 19 ** not need a military genius like **
** 02720 Espoo FINLAND ** Edward III. All you ever need is **
** 358-0-592175 ha...@snakemail.hut.fi ** an idiot like the Duke of Alencon **