Penn Sylvan sold?
PS Confusion
up several months ago but was told the owner changed his mind and decided
not to sell. If it did change hands I hope the new owner takes a little more
pride in the place then the last one. Maybe the change will be for the best
and someone will finally fix the place up.
The last couple of years it has been sliding into decay. The big stone farm
house was fixed up magnificently but that's where it ends. The rest of the
place looks like a trailer park out of the 20's with people living full time
in small camping trailers and junk strewn everywhere. Kind of like Sanford
and Sons.
The "Welcome to Penn Sylvan" sign is gone and I hope so too is the bad
management. Bravo!!
Cheef
--
visit CHEEF.COM - Your CHEEF source for nudist info
Subscribe to NUDIST NEWS! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nudist-news-group
Stuffed Tiger
wrote:
>What happened to Penn Sylvan?
I just visited today. The indoor swimming pool was crystal clear,
heated (but not too hot) and the pool area, ceilings and walls were
sparkling clean and mold free despite the humidity. The sauna was
delightful. The hot tub by the fireplace was perfect. People were
having a good time. The fireplace in the common room was going with a
nice soft glow. The access roads were plowed. The staff was friendly.
The public buildings and member's trailers seemed in good shape in
spite of the snow and ice and cold of this winter. If there was
anything out of place, it was not obvious to me. I was there for fun
not an inspection, but all was clean and tidy as far as I could see.
I talked with some new members (I am not a member - live too far away)
who were thrilled to be there. There is nothing like it within a
hundred miles. What did you hope to gain by your post? Whatever it
was, it seems you have chosen a harmful approach because your
denigrations of Penn Sylvan do not match the reality I just saw.
I'm sorry, but now I find it hard to believe anything you write.
Stuffed Tiger
PS Confusion
genuine. I am truly hoping that things at Penn Sylvan will improve with the
new ownership and I wish the new owner the very best. Haven't you noticed
that all reference to "Penn Sylvan" has been removed from the web site? And
now references to Penn Sylvan are being removed from the camp itself. If
indeed the rumors of new ownership are true that's not a bad thing it's a
good thing.
That was the whole point of my writing. With the old management gone I
assume or at least hope that the new owner will rectify some of the problems
that have plagued the camp in the past.
Obviously you seldom if ever venture beyond the main area where the pool and
hot tub are located. If you did you would see what I speak of. I agree
things in that area seem fine, other than an outside whirlpool that hasn't
had water in it for years, posing the danger of accidentally falling into it
and some other problems that most people such as yourself apparently don't
notice.
I have visited Penn Sylvan many times and have talked to numerous "old
timers". Almost unanimously are dissatisfied with the policies, rules (or
lack there of) and upkeep. People who unlike you have a vested interest in
the place and look forward to seeing improvements or at the very least the
security of knowing the place will be there for them in the future. It is
totally unfair for someone such as yourself to imply they don't have valid
concerns.
The next time you visit please take the time to talk to someone other than
the people who run the place or someone afraid or reprisals and get the
other side of the story.
---A friend of Penn Sylvan.
Cheef
news:ju2_b.14413$W74....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net:
> I resent the implication that I have an "axe to grind".
It was not implied. It was stated. Perhaps my wording could have been
better. I did not mean to cause resentment. So, please let me
rephrase: "What are your motivations, particularly any unstated
motivations, for being so negative regarding Penn Sylvan?"
I know some people who have had their membership revoked because they
had a disagreement with the owner.
I know some people who are unhappy with the rapid increase in lot fees
and (to a lesser degree) in membership prices.
I know some people who are unhappy that the club is no longer organizing
activities such as volleyball weekends.
I think it would be helpful to know if you fit into any of these
categories.
> My inquiry was
> genuine. I am truly hoping that things at Penn Sylvan will improve
> with the new ownership and I wish the new owner the very best. Haven't
> you noticed that all reference to "Penn Sylvan" has been removed from
> the web site? And now references to Penn Sylvan are being removed from
> the camp itself. If indeed the rumors of new ownership are true that's
> not a bad thing it's a good thing.
I'm not quite sure what your point is about the website.
It has the domain name "pennsylvan.net" and the title "Penn Sylvan
Health Society".
> Obviously you seldom if ever venture beyond the main area where the
> pool and hot tub are located. If you did you would see what I speak
> of.
Actually, I do. I do know there are some declining trailers that could
be fixed up or removed, and a few areas where junk/scrap is stored that
could also use cleaning and fixing. However, I think your comparison to
a junkyard was hyperbole strong enough to be inaccurate.
> I agree things in that area seem fine, other than an outside
> whirlpool that hasn't had water in it for years, posing the danger of
> accidentally falling into it and some other problems that most people
> such as yourself apparently don't notice.
I agree that the outdoor hot tub not working is a problem that should be
tended to. I also wouldn't mind if a few other things were spiffier,
such as the roof/back wall area of the clubhouse and the showers at the
motel (although their cleanliness is greatly improved from a few years
ago).
> I have visited Penn Sylvan many times and have talked to numerous "old
> timers". Almost unanimously are dissatisfied with the policies, rules
> (or lack there of) and upkeep. People who unlike you have a vested
> interest in the place and look forward to seeing improvements or at
> the very least the security of knowing the place will be there for
> them in the future. It is totally unfair for someone such as yourself
> to imply they don't have valid concerns.
I am not implying they don't have valid concerns. I'm saying that your
negativity was excessive.
> The next time you visit please take the time to talk to someone other
> than the people who run the place or someone afraid or reprisals and
> get the other side of the story.
Actually, my conversations have not been with the management. In fact,
I don't think I've actually ever met the owner and if I've ever met any
management it has been at check-in (and even there, it has almost always
been residents or members working the desk). I am aware of some of the
issues... but they don't seem to be as great as several attacks on the
place that I have seen here, on my website, and elsewhere.
I find Penn Sylvan a wonderful place, and would not hesitate to
recommend it to anyone, save those who absolutely only want to go to the
most upscale resorts.
Sandjicpl
attended? What do people wear to the dances? Do they get a DJ, have hot
buffet, etc. Anything that you could relate would be appreciated.
John H.
doing nothing wrong and the other 4 were having intercourse you would would
write about 96 nude people and not mention the other 4. You would not be
inaccurate but you would also not be doing nudism and good by ignoring the 4
people doing something wrong. You seem to see only the good and not mention
the rest. However with nudism we must be ever so careful to tell the whole
truth so good people can stay away from places that they would rather not
visit. I am not infering Penn Sylvan is this place I am just saying you see
things differently than the rest of us. I have children and take them to
different camps/beaches all over the east coast. Reading only about the 96
people on the nude beach isn't good for people like me. I want to know if
the other type of person is there, the other 4 having intercourse. I hope
you understand this is not meant to attack you. I want to know the whole
story. If a club has problems I want to know about them. I want to go into
a new place knowing as much about it as I can. I will then form my own
opinions from what I see. If someone went to a club and found X Y and Z
wrong in there opinion please tell us about it. We are all adults capable
of making up our own minds.
"Cheef" <ch...@cheef.com> wrote in message
news:Xns94988C9A23...@207.69.154.202...
jon...@webtv.net
doing nothing wrong and the other 4 were having intercourse you would
would write about 96 nude people and not mention the other 4. You would
not be inaccurate but you would also not be doing nudism and good by
ignoring the 4 people doing something wrong. You seem to see only the
good and not mention the rest. However with nudism we must be ever so
careful to tell the whole truth so good people can stay away from places
that they would rather not visit. I am not infering Penn Sylvan is this
place I am just saying you see things differently than the rest of us. I
have children and take them to different camps/beaches all over the east
coast. Reading only about the 96 people on the nude beach isn't good for
people like me. I want to know if the other type of person is there, the
other 4 having intercourse. I hope you understand this is not meant to
attack you. I want to know the whole story. If a club has problems I
want to know about them. I want to go into a new place knowing as much
about it as I can. I will then form my own opinions from what I see. If
someone went to a club and found X Y and Z wrong in there opinion please
tell us about it. We are all adults capable of making up our own minds.
nude.....i will help you get up to speed with the what why and how of
the WORLDS GREATEST COLLECTION OF untruthful individuals......that are
chock full of cult nudist dogma......so full of the memorized
dogma...that one might get the impression that they believe it.....or a
realist such as i....figure no one is dumb enough to try and convince
even a chimp pansy of such obvious dogma...having went to school in the
USA...and at the kindergarten age ...realized boys were lustful for the
nakedness of girls.......and that it was a sexual turnon......and for
the rest of my life had this fact reassured to me ...daily....so
intensely that NOT ONE TIME have i had a doubt that nakedness of the
opposite sex was a sexual turnon for boys and men.......take a break at
this time to absorb what i have said.....and now you should be ready for
this further conclusion.......did the above typical boy realization not
be the same for you....if not please indicate......but if it was the
same....then when you first heard of social nudism.....why did you have
a doubt that sexuality would occur oververtly by some
individuals.....was it that you read the dogma by folks like cheef and
believed him.....old bill of bc ...once said.....do we nudist not have
the right to put the best face on our lifestyle......best face
Hell.....only a heathen liar.....thinks like that......his dyfunctional
attitude and
disrespect......................................................................................................................................
...toward his fellow man is so intensely impaired ....and obvious....to
the average joe sixpak...that it becomes one of the most repulsive
character flaws known to the moral majority.......take another
break......we got a poster ...here by the name of nudistfamily that has
searched all over the eastern US....hoping to find nonsexual social
nudism.....and has decided his back yard is all that is left for he and
his family......so he was dumb to the reality of the male sexual
attitudes in general....are you now thinking realistic and in the here
and now.....good ....and God bless you for your sudden
enlightenment.....there is two individuals here besides me that resides
in the real world......Kathleen has realized that social nudism is
sexual to alot of folks and has found the least sex to be at the hot
springs.....and i agree....because of the remote locations ...the sex
seekers tend to go find the most handy social nudist places....makes
sense huh....my friend SIR PETER RIDEN of canada ....lives in the real
world and offers no pretenses of the likely sexual behavior that some
will demonstrate in social naked settings.....he does not reside in a
fantasy world of dogma.....he owns THE GRAND BARN in ontario.....i
believe his kind are the enduring ones that are never trapped by the
moral majority as he presents what he has to offer to all including the
local news people.....nudist are running like hell to escape the dogma
they have put forth for the better part of a century....now you are up
to speed.....enjoy reality....jonZeee
Cheef
however, wonder why somebody would list nothing but negatives about a
place, particularly when my impression is far different.
Now, someone gave a great example... a beach with 100 people and 4 are
having sex. If someone was as opposed to public sex at nudist spots as I
am, then I would understand why that would be the main (or perhaps even the
only) thing they would concentrate on in their article. My axe to grind
would be my opposition (for a variety of reasons0 to public sex at nudist
spots.
I asked the original poster what his/her axe to grind was regarding Penn
Sylvan.
Cheri Alexander
news:SYRZb.13871$W74....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Is your name William J. Hunter or one of the other folk who had a problem
with being
put out of the park for inappropriate behaviour?
El Dorado Hot Springs
Dear John,
"John H." <jh...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dKWdnfuIVr2...@comcast.com...
Great post! Yes, all information should be revealed, otherwise people will
experience things they may not want to.
Bill Pennington
Peter Riden
>.my friend SIR PETER RIDEN of canada ....lives in the real
>world and offers no pretenses of the likely sexual behavior that some
>will demonstrate in social naked settings.....he does not reside in a
>fantasy world of dogma.....he owns THE GRAND BARN in ontario.....i
>believe his kind are the enduring ones that are never trapped by the
>moral majority as he presents what he has to offer to all including the
>local news people.....nudist are running like hell to escape the dogma
>they have put forth for the better part of a century....now you are up
>to speed.....enjoy reality....jonZeee
My Friend John,
To the displeasure of the few.. I believe that you have very much well
observed and summed up my unflinching stance towards the notion of
Nude Recreation as opposed to my few detractors.. although they are
much quieter these days. I'm aware they are still trying to attack by
the back but it's so benign that it's like a fast breeze blowing
by..;-) Considering that the Cheef and few of his TLT members have
finally admitted to their double standards thanks to Candy Mejia.
Of course preparing for the coming events at THE GRAND BARN is keeping
me quite busy.
So.. you keep vigilant..;-)
In Friendship & Universality
Peter Riden
for THE WORLDWIDE AFFILIATE NETWORK {T.W.A.N.}
http://www.the-worldwide-affiliate-network.com
T.W.A.N.'s very own newsgroup: alt.the-worldwide-affiliate-network
THE GRAND BARN {TGB}:http://www.the-grand-barn.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheGrandBarn
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/It-s_About_Time/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Affiliate-Online
PS Confusion
>>I know some people who have had their membership revoked because they
had a disagreement with the owner.
>>I know some people who are unhappy with the rapid increase in lot fees
and (to a lesser degree) in membership prices.
>>I know some people who are unhappy that the club is no longer organizing
activities such as volleyball weekends.
How about none of the above.
I thought I was clear. We too like Penn Sylvan very much. It is also the
closest club for us. Just when we had made up our minds to buy a place
there, things started happening that changed our minds. We were disappointed
to say the least. I won't go into detail here but at this time it is not the
kind of place we want to make an investment in. If you feel so strongly
about Penn Sylvan then why don't you buy a place there? Put your money where
your mouth is and help the organization out if you feel so strongly about it
being such a great place. Talk is cheap!
The majority of people at Penn Sylvan are warm friendly and generally
decent. We have made friends with many of them and know from conversations
with them and first hand experience many things that you apparently do not.
Unfortunately some of the best people there have elected to as one friend
put it "cut our losses" and have left. And it's not because of the 700
percent increase in the lot fees since 2000.
I'll not go into detail but suffice it to say it is no longer the family
environment you paint it to be. Drunkenness, violence, vulgarity and oh yes
SEX is the environment today. Just one example. For at least one event held
in the dining hall all the windows were covered up with brown paper and this
sign was posted on all the doors. An exact quote right down to the
exclamation marks
"WARNING!!!
THIS IS A PRIVATE
ADULT PARTY
NOT A CAMP
FUNCTION.
SHOULD YOU BE OFFENDED BY
ANYTHING YOU SEE
YOU ARE FREE TO
LEAVE!!
Does this indicate a family environment? In reality this was not a private
party. It was open to anyone who wished to attend. After one such party
signs went up all over camp stating that "Absolutely NO PHOTOGRAPHS are to
be taken on PSHS Property at ALL. ------" Would you care to guess why? I
know why. Why doesn't CHEEF? When, as they say "the _hit hits the fan" and
the public becomes aware of the goings on at Penn Sylvan, I think those who
blindly support this kind of environment will have red faces. Oh, that's
right, CHEEF's already have red faces --------- don't they?
PS Confusion
Why is it that when someone opposes your view or tries to inform the nudist
public about an important issue, they must "have an axe to grind"? Are you
really that insecure? I can assure you that I can back up everything I have
written.
5lb...@rthlrk.not
PS Confusion wrote:
Aw, quitcherbitchin. You said they had brown paper on the windows, right? They
claimed it was an adult party, right? Adults are part of families, right? Just
because they have offspring they are no longer allowed to have any fun of their own?
Rails25
only swingers and those foolist enough to buy retirement homes there when the
original owners were hyping the nudist lifestyle, too bad, like Penn when we
visited there several years ago
Cheef
First of all, no need to cast aspersions.
Calling me insecure is exactly that... name calling.
The "axe to grind" was asking what the motivation was. That's all.
I explained in my posts that sometimes I have an "axe to grind"... a
motivation which makes me unhappy about certain things.
I'm not denying that you can present witnesses and testimony for what you
say. Folks on the other side can do the same thing.
I remain curious what motivates you. If you don't want to share it, that's
your choice.
Cheef
> If
> you feel so strongly about Penn Sylvan then why don't you buy a place
> there? Put your money where your mouth is and help the organization
> out if you feel so strongly about it being such a great place. Talk is
> cheap!
I do pay grounds fees and overnight fees when I visit. At this time,
membership is not an option due to financial considerations and time
constraints.
And, it's not relevant at all to the topic of discussion.
> Unfortunately some of the best people there have
> elected to as one friend put it "cut our losses" and have left. And
> it's not because of the 700 percent increase in the lot fees since
> 2000.
I do know that's some people's motivations. I also know some have had
unpleasant run-ins with ownership/management.
> I'll not go into detail but suffice it to say it is no longer the
> family environment you paint it to be. Drunkenness, violence,
> vulgarity and oh yes SEX is the environment today. Just one example.
> For at least one event held in the dining hall all the windows were
> covered up with brown paper and this sign was posted on all the doors.
> An exact quote right down to the exclamation marks
> "WARNING!!!
> THIS IS A PRIVATE
> ADULT PARTY
> NOT A CAMP
> FUNCTION.
> SHOULD YOU BE OFFENDED BY
> ANYTHING YOU SEE
> YOU ARE FREE TO
> LEAVE!!
> Does this indicate a family environment? In reality this was not a
> private party. It was open to anyone who wished to attend. After one
> such party signs went up all over camp stating that "Absolutely NO
> PHOTOGRAPHS are to be taken on PSHS Property at ALL. ------" Would you
> care to guess why? I know why. Why doesn't CHEEF? When, as they say
> "the _hit hits the fan" and the public becomes aware of the goings on
> at Penn Sylvan, I think those who blindly support this kind of
> environment will have red faces. Oh, that's right, CHEEF's already
> have red faces --------- don't they?
If there is a sexually-oriented party in a public area of a nudist club,
that is something which should not happen and which should be referred to
AANR for investigation.
Stuffed Tiger
wrote:
On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 18:36:17 GMT, in rec.nude you wrote:
>To Cheef -
...snip...
>Just one example. For at least one event held in the dining hall
>all the windows were covered up with brown paper and this
>sign was posted on all the doors. An exact quote right down to the
>exclamation marks
>"WARNING!!! THIS IS A PRIVATE ADULT PARTY, NOT A CAMP FUNCTION.
>SHOULD YOU BE OFFENDED BY ANYTHING YOU SEE YOU ARE FREE TO
>LEAVE!!
...snip...
This was posted and discussed on Rec.nude nine months ago. Here is the
thread and the excerpt:
On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 01:33:33 GMT, in rec.nude "Nudist 4 Ever"
<an...@sunfun.com> wrote:
...snip...
>There was also a sign on each
>door. WARNING!!! THIS IS A PRIVATE ADULT PARTY, NOT A CAMP FUNCTION. SHOULD
>YOU BE OFFENDED BY ANYTHING YOU SEE YOU ARE FREE TO LEAVE!! Although the
>party wasn't officially hosted by "camp" ...
...snip...
The fact that you have to reach back nine months to dig up anything
remotely able to support your argument, and even this does not really
support your claims, is perhaps the best argument against you.
Last summer we found out this was a private party not hosted by the
camp but by one of the members for their friends. Penn Sylvan has
since declined to allow such parties, we are told. We were there at
Penn Sylvan about the time of that previous post was made and it was
an outstanding family environment for the members as anyone and
everyone there could plainly see.
I understand this party was actually the winter before, so there would
seem even less cause for concern if that is the best you can do and
you are really close to the members there as you say.
I am particularly happy that they do not permit photographs and have
banned the use of cell phones with cameras installed. If you cannot
understand why that might be supportive of a family setting then it is
hard to believe you are really interested in the truth.
Stuffed Tiger
Cheri Alexander
news:20040305055637...@mb-m21.aol.com...
MCG is called Pleasure Grove and claimed that it was the US answer to
Hedonism II.
It does not allude to be a family nudist camp.
Rails25
sanctioned family nudist resort (circa 1991), it became a swinger resort only
because of the gullablity of the folks who bought into the nudist resort
retirement concept (me and my family included) and the greed of the original
and following owners, sounds as though exactly the same thing is happening at
Penn Sylvan, too bad
Cheri Alexander
I am very familiar with the original MCG and loved visiting even though it
was more
than a 4 hr. trek.
Regards, Cheri
Cheef
news:20040307064900...@mb-m11.aol.com:
I don't know anything about Mountain Creek Grove.
However, I don't see any evidence that Penn Sylvan is going in such a
direction... unless you count the management posting signs and verbally
warning visitors and potential visitors against such activities as
evidence.
Rails25
to play in, so as to not interfere with the traditional family type nudists,
but as time went on the swingers got more open in the clubhouse and around the
grounds, got so you couldn't be around the common area's any longer without
encountering swinger activity or at the minumum, swinger graphic converstation
around the pool and clubhouse, just wait, cause that's how it starts,
traditional family nudist club discovers they can make more money bringing in
swingers, etc, and there it goes.......been there and sadly watched it happen,
good luck keeping it contained at Penn Sylvan
cyndiann
So then you have to ask yourself why catering to swingers makes the club
more money.
Cheef
news:kJX4c.270671$Po1.1...@twister.tampabay.rr.com:
> So then you have to ask yourself why catering to swingers makes the
> club more money.
It's the same reason that the brothels posing as "massage parlors" make
more money than legitimate massage therapy studios.
Lots of people will pay lots of money to have sex.
Jenny6833A
>Lots of people will pay lots of money to have sex.
And lots of people will pay lots of money to hear people inveigh against sex.
Mostly, they're the same people.
:-)
Jenny
Before emailing, remove Clothes
PS Confusion
"Adult" parties or observed some of the behavior such as naked lap dancing
at the dances I can only conclude you are attending a different Penn Sylvan
than I. Or perhaps it may be that deep within your soul you are of the same
ilk.
Bert Clanton
<jenny...@aol.comClothes> wrote:
> ch...@cheef.com says
>
> >Lots of people will pay lots of money to have sex.
>
> And lots of people will pay lots of money to hear people inveigh against sex.
>
> Mostly, they're the same people.
>
> :-)
>
> Jenny
>
Right on!
Best wishes,
Bert
Cheef
I've never been to a dance.
I've never seen any signs other than the signs saying that anyone making
sexual advances will be ejected.
Jenny6833A
Allen
I am not a member of Penn Sylvan. I have visited Penn Sylvan on two
occasions, however. I found the place to be family friendly and an enjoyable
place to visit. The only drawback that I found was having to get out of the
hot tub to put quaters in the bubble machine.
As for Dan, I have known Dan for many years and know him to be what he says
he is. The nudist attitude he portrays here and on his web page are the same
as he lives in real life.
If you want to condemn someone, pick someone else. It will be easier to
support.
Allen
George Orwell
>more money than legitimate massage therapy studios.
>Lots of people will pay lots of money to have sex.
Yes, sex sells. Nudists must be ever on guard against people who
would like to turn their clubs and beaches into yet another run down
sex joint.
I saw one club fend off such an assault. A group decided to have
sex down at the pool after midnight. The club called the police and
had the swingers arrested. It was the right thing to do. There should
be zero tolerance for such behaviour.
Struggling clubs which turn to swingers to "save" them are only signing
their own death warrants. Once the swingers come in, the nudists leave.
Then the religious right and the radical feminists tar these swingers
as "nudist colonies" and we lose our way of life.
Nudists need to support their nudist camps. Sure, sex sells. But look
what it buys you: the loss of your favourite hobby.
Don't let the swingers into your camp. You will regret it.
cyndiann
"George Orwell" <nob...@mixmaster.it> wrote in message
news:21b2a5dbe8530386...@mixmaster.it...
> >It's the same reason that the brothels posing as "massage parlors" make
> >more money than legitimate massage therapy studios.
>
> >Lots of people will pay lots of money to have sex.
>
> Yes, sex sells. Nudists must be ever on guard against people who
> would like to turn their clubs and beaches into yet another run down
> sex joint.
Some "sex joints" aren't run down at all actually.
>
> I saw one club fend off such an assault. A group decided to have
> sex down at the pool after midnight. The club called the police and
> had the swingers arrested. It was the right thing to do. There should
> be zero tolerance for such behaviour.
>
> Struggling clubs which turn to swingers to "save" them are only signing
> their own death warrants. Once the swingers come in, the nudists leave.
> Then the religious right and the radical feminists tar these swingers
> as "nudist colonies" and we lose our way of life.
Could you give an example or two of clubs you know that this happened to?
>
> Nudists need to support their nudist camps. Sure, sex sells. But look
> what it buys you: the loss of your favourite hobby.
>
> Don't let the swingers into your camp. You will regret it.
>
Are there clubs out there that really don't have swingers? I thought they
all did.
cyndiann
www.mynudelife.com
Dan Abel
jenny...@aol.comClothes (Jenny6833A) wrote:
> ch...@cheef.com says
>
> >I've never been to a dance.
>
> Why not?
I don't know what denomination cheef is, but this reminds me of a joke:
Q: Why don't Baptists have sex standing up?
A: Because somebody might think they were dancing!
--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS
da...@sonic.net
Cheef
64en129.sonoma.edu:
> In article <20040315231212...@mb-m04.aol.com>,
> jenny...@aol.comClothes (Jenny6833A) wrote:
>
>> ch...@cheef.com says
>>
>> >I've never been to a dance.
>>
>> Why not?
I can't for the life of me figure out why you would care, but it's mostly
for two reasons:
They haven't usually fit into my schedule very well. (I often have other
commitments on Saturday nights, which is when Penn Sylvan usually schedules
them.)
My wife just doesn't like to dance.
> I don't know what denomination cheef is,
I'm a twenty, but I'll take fifties and hundreds too.
> Q: Why don't Baptists have sex standing up?
> A: Because somebody might think they were dancing!
It's an oldie, but a goodie. :)
PS Confusion
>I've never been to a dance.
>I've never seen any signs other than the signs saying that anyone making
>sexual advances will be ejected.
That sign is total BS! A friend of mine who owns a service station has a
sign posted that reads "Not responsible for fire or theft". The mere posting
of the sign doesn't absolve him of his responsibility for a car while in his
care. It only gives the appearance that he isn't responsible. Much as the
signs at Penn Sylvan do not prevent bad behavior. They only give the
appearance of a respectable club. Something AANR insists on, the APPEARANCE
of a family atmosphere. I know for a fact that AANR has received multiple
calls about unacceptable behavior at Penn Sylvan and has chosen to do
nothing about it.
More telling is what is done when such behavior is reported to the
management. There have been multiple incidents reported to the management
about overt sexual behavior. The only outcome that I am aware of is the
complainers were told to keep quiet about it, and supposedly a letter was
put into the file of the offender. Oh yes, PSHS is big on keeping "files" on
their members. It's also the only club I have ever been to that has a video
surveillance system in operation. The more seasoned members have learned
that it's not a good idea to complain about ANYTHING. The complainer is far
more likely to get kicked out then the offender.
Several years ago a couple was evicted from Penn Sylvan. They were members
for quite a few years and had just upgraded from a small trailer to a larger
mobile home. Their eviction was a great financial hardship to them because
they had to buy land to relocate the trailer. To say nothing of the
heartbreak of having to leave a place they loved dearly. To this day no
reason has been given for their dismissal. Rumors flew, mostly spread by the
management, something Penn Sylvan is famous for, but no reasonable
explanation was ever given. In typical fashion the management printed the
following in the July 2002 edition of their newsletter. It wasn't enough to
throw them out but the management felt the need to brag about it and
possibly send a message to the membership as well. Don't screw with us. This
could happen to you.
"The rumor mill has begun-THE FOLLOWING IS ABSOLUTELY AND POSITIVELY NOT
TRUE! Former members, whose membership was not renewed two years ago, did
not receive a six-figure settlement from PSHS. Their settlement? Nothing! In
fact it cost them money to sue the camp." ---------------
The same newsletter also had the following
"The rumormongers can be heard; they seem to enjoy downgrading the camp and
the facilities. They have all kinds of ideas for improvements but in fact,
never even volunteer to help with activities or come up with ideas on how to
pay for these so-called improvements. IF THINGS WERE THAT BAD, AND THEY ARE
SO UNHAPPY WITH THEIR SURROUNDINGS THEN ONE WOULD THINK THEY WOULD
LEAVE...ENOUGH SAID !!!!!!"
The above is typical of their newsletter. One of the most negative
newsletters I have ever read. It's hard to find one without the presence of
negativity or outright threats. Odd for the newsletter of a place that one
goes to for recreation, relaxation or fun. Criticism is not downgrading a
concept that PSHS doesn't seem to understand.
One would think that with the tremendous increase in cost since 2000, and
the addition of other fees, they could afford to hire someone to do the work
instead of trying to intimidate the members into working for free. Some of
us have jobs and go there to get away from work. If PSHS were a co-op club
such as Pine Tree I could understand volunteerism but even though they say
things like "this is your club" Penn Sylvan is not "your" club.
By the way Cheef. The next time you visit Penn Sylvan ask for a list of the
rules. You may be surprised at what you find.
Cheef
> Cheef writes
>>I've never been to a dance.
>>I've never seen any signs other than the signs saying that anyone
>>making sexual advances will be ejected.
>
> That sign is total BS!
Well, at least you acknowledge it exists.
Anyway, I can't see where this is taking anybody anywhere.
You have your view of Penn Sylvan shaped by your experiences.
I have mine.
> By the way Cheef. The next time you visit Penn Sylvan ask for a list
> of the rules. You may be surprised at what you find.
Okay, I'll try to remember to ask.
What do you want me to look for? :)
George Orwell
>> Yes, sex sells. Nudists must be ever on guard against people who
>> would like to turn their clubs and beaches into yet another run down
>> sex joint.
>Some "sex joints" aren't run down at all actually.
And some pigs can fly. I just haven't seen any.
>Could you give an example or two of clubs you know that this
>happened to?
As if it's a BIG SECRET what I'm talking about. You don't have to
be Ben Cartwright to know the name of the most famous of the sun
clubs that I'm talking about. It was no "bonanza" to naturism when
they went from legitimate AANR club to a swinger's sleaze club.
And that's the the tip of the iceberg. Look at the swinger's clubs
that pretend to be nudist camps. Yes, those scum bags who claim to
be "at ease with nudity", when what they really mean is "we have
sex in public", are part of the problem too.
Tolerating these people is a big mistake. They aren't nudists. Period.
>> Don't let the swingers into your camp. You will regret it.
>Are there clubs out there that really don't have swingers?
>I thought they all did.
Just as the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts will always have
pedophiles in their numbers, I'm sure there will always be at least one
swinger at a nudist camp at any one time. The solution is to not let
them practice their "craft" or nudists will regret it.
Nudists don't go to swingers clubs to convert a swingers venue into
a nudist venue, but swingers do "invade" nudists camps. Some
nudist camps have caved in to the economic pressure to take
swinger's money. It has cost them in the long run. These camps
are only kidding themselves that they can "control" the swingers,
that it's "only temporary" or that it won't hurt the "campus reputation".
Swingers are not the solution to solving a nudists campus money
woes. Swingers are looking for love in all the wrong places when
they come to a nudist camp. As a nudist you'll quickly find that
"there goes the neighbourhood" if you let these vermin in.
When swingers try to turn a nudist camp into a swingers resort
they have crossed the line. If they want to fuck each other in the
comfort and convenience of their own homes, RVs, and cabins
that is certainly their own business. When they fuck down by the
nudist camp pool, they've once again crossed the line. Nudists
need to take a hard line on this type of behaviour. While most
clubs don't want the "bad publicity" that comes with arresting
people who have sex in public, arresting these swingers for
having sex in public is exactly what is needed. If they can't
behave as nudists at a nudist camp then let them deal with a
sex offender's criminal record and all that goes with it.
Expelling the perverts isn't enough. They need to be convicted
of the sex crimes they are committing if naturism is to be protected.
I am done letting the club management deal with these problems.
If I see someone having sex down by the pool, I will call the cops.
I don't need permission to report a crime in progress. If the mgt
doesn't want the bad publicity of an arrest, then they need to do
a better job of screening who they admit to the club. They can
either keep the swingers or "yours truly" out. Their choice.
jon...@webtv.net
walking around naked was what you wanted.....and when you did ....what
was was your thinking that this could be possible in a sexual society
such as the USA...the majority of folks live in a clothed world and
getting naked means sex to them...even though it did not mean sex to you
..how did you figure this idea would be popular enough to support one
camp let alone camps all over the USA....give me a break ...grow
up.....jonZeee
Dan Abel
<nob...@mixmaster.it> wrote:
> And that's the the tip of the iceberg. Look at the swinger's clubs
> that pretend to be nudist camps. Yes, those scum bags who claim to
> be "at ease with nudity", when what they really mean is "we have
> sex in public", are part of the problem too.
To be honest, he has changed his tune over the years. He is no longer
claiming to be a nudist facility, but is openly saying that swinging is
what people do there. I think it's acceptable for a swing place to say
that they are at ease with nudity, because I think that there are some
swingers who aren't, and it's not fair to swingers who are expecting
clothing and finding nude people.
George Orwell
>..how did you figure this idea would be popular enough to support one
>camp let alone camps all over the USA....give me a break ...grow
>up.....jonZeee
It's OK with me if you want to be a swinger. Go to a swinger group
and practice your personal perversion. If it isn't against the law
it's OK with me. What I do have a problem with is butt pirates
showing up at a NUDIST CLUB and trying to fuck the locals.
We aren't interested in your perversion, or we would have
called ourselves the Bonanza FUCK CLUB. What part of
NUDIST don't you understand?
George Orwell
>calls about unacceptable behavior at Penn Sylvan
>and has chosen to do nothing about it.
Well, hells bells, there's your problem! Stop calling Penn
Sylvan management and start calling the Pennsylvania State Police.
If there are fuckers engaging in sexual activity in public, that's
a crime. Have the fuckers arrested. Take some pictures. If Penn
Sylvan doesn't like that, let them know that your pictures are now
evidence and if they try to confiscate the pictures or otherwise
destroy them, that may very well be obstruction of justice and
they'll get a jail cell right next to Martha Stewart. Whether this
is true or not is not the point. It will make them think twice
as to whether they are "the law" inside the camp. They aren't.
State law still applies to them and they need to be reminded
of that.
After that Penn Sylvan management will get off their lazy fat
asses and do something pro-active. They won't like the bad
publicity an arrest brings and will want to avoid another incident.
But if that's too much work for you, then you should really consider
whether you are all that offended or are just flapping your jaws here
on rec.nude.
This problem isn't difficult to solve, but it's certainly not the most
pleasant thing you'll do today. Sure, we wish all this shit would
just magically stop all by itself. But it won't. If you see someone
doing something inappropriate and just look the other way, you're part
of the problem. So be part of the solution. You can make a difference.
Pick up that phone and call the police the next time you see it happen.
This really is no different from neighbourhoods who will no longer
tolerate drug dealing on their street corners. When the neighbours
all pull together and report the crooks, they either go to jail or go
somewhere else. Either way the neighbours win. So can you.
But you've got to take the first step and make that phone call.
@spamcop.net Richard C.
: cyndiann of mysocallednudelife.com notes:
=========================
Excellent Post! Well stated!
Dan Abel
<nob...@mixmaster.it> wrote:
> I was talking about *scum bags in general* who I have heard use
> this "at ease with nudity" line. Apparently someone recognized
> a *scum bag in particular* who uses it!!!!!!
I've never heard anyone else use it, especially not here, and it's rather
an odd phrase to my ear. A long-time poster here uses it constantly (I
think it's part of his sig). I assumed you were referring to him.
jon...@webtv.net
1973....was a total disaster leaving the independant truckers with more
to haul for a lessor rate..the nixon adm simply told the people ..they
were renegades and the hungry easterners agreed....thus the spirit of
the strike was lost.......the truckers learned without a nationwide
communications system and the support of large companies it was
impossible.....they never speak of a strike any more......for the better
part of a century..a minority group of cult conservative nudist have
ranted and railed about wanting kooky walk around nudism ..absent of
sex......and it never goes that way......SO ORWELL....WHAT IN HELL ARE
YOU TRYING TO ACCOMPLICE other than being pissed off and wanting to rant
about it.....and are you so stupid to think you will succeed.....jonZeee
Rails25
getting the club banned after a convention is held there, and no real
assistance provided to the original card carrying AANR members except a
recommendation to find another resort, happened at Mountain Creek Grove, now
known as "the Grove, or Pleasure Grove", the nudist parent organization is only
really interested in holding meetings several times a year that representative
can claim expenses to. Once your club is in trouble, there is no real help from
fellow nudist organization. Painful experience. And AANR rufused to accept
editorials for the bulletion even though our memberships were paid through the
year. Money talks, nudist professional or swinger, at least one of them screws
in the open.
Dario Western
Hi George,
> As if it's a BIG SECRET what I'm talking about. You don't have to
> be Ben Cartwright to know the name of the most famous of the sun
> clubs that I'm talking about. It was no "bonanza" to naturism when
> they went from legitimate AANR club to a swinger's sleaze club.
Even though I've never visited the joint myself, I would dare say that the
behavioral expectations and standards are much higher than those displayed
at PL of late.
> And that's the the tip of the iceberg. Look at the swinger's clubs
> that pretend to be nudist camps. Yes, those scum bags who claim to
> be "at ease with nudity", when what they really mean is "we have
> sex in public", are part of the problem too.
>
> Tolerating these people is a big mistake. They aren't nudists. Period.
>
> >> Don't let the swingers into your camp. You will regret it.
>
> >Are there clubs out there that really don't have swingers?
> >I thought they all did.
>
> Just as the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts will always have
> pedophiles in their numbers, I'm sure there will always be at least one
> swinger at a nudist camp at any one time. The solution is to not let
> them practice their "craft" or nudists will regret it.
There's only one solution: UNICEF successfully has these institutions
liquidated. Or better still when boys turn 18 to have a routine aversion
therapy treatment done to prevent them from sexually desiring children.
Personally, I don't give a damn what swingers do, but it's best they form
their own fortress villages away from the rest of society where they can
f... like rabbits to their hearts content. As for sex on beaches and in
pools: how can one draw the line between innocent PDA's to the full-blown
rumpy pumpy? Should nudist clubs eject couples who simply hug and kiss each
other or hold hands?
> Nudists don't go to swingers clubs to convert a swingers venue into
> a nudist venue, but swingers do "invade" nudists camps. Some
> nudist camps have caved in to the economic pressure to take
> swinger's money. It has cost them in the long run. These camps
> are only kidding themselves that they can "control" the swingers,
> that it's "only temporary" or that it won't hurt the "campus reputation".
What do you propse to do? Make swinging a crime just as much as
paedophilia? Should there be a blanket ban on extra-marital sex to make it
a heinous crime, even between 'consenting' adults?
> Swingers are not the solution to solving a nudists campus money
> woes. Swingers are looking for love in all the wrong places when
> they come to a nudist camp. As a nudist you'll quickly find that
> "there goes the neighbourhood" if you let these vermin in.
They're not looking for love, they're looking for sex. There's a difference
between love and sex, and unfortunately our modern pop culture has confused
the two.
> When swingers try to turn a nudist camp into a swingers resort
> they have crossed the line. If they want to fuck each other in the
> comfort and convenience of their own homes, RVs, and cabins
> that is certainly their own business. When they fuck down by the
> nudist camp pool, they've once again crossed the line. Nudists
> need to take a hard line on this type of behaviour. While most
> clubs don't want the "bad publicity" that comes with arresting
> people who have sex in public, arresting these swingers for
> having sex in public is exactly what is needed. If they can't
> behave as nudists at a nudist camp then let them deal with a
> sex offender's criminal record and all that goes with it.
Amen to that!
> Expelling the perverts isn't enough. They need to be convicted
> of the sex crimes they are committing if naturism is to be protected.
>
> I am done letting the club management deal with these problems.
> If I see someone having sex down by the pool, I will call the cops.
> I don't need permission to report a crime in progress. If the mgt
> doesn't want the bad publicity of an arrest, then they need to do
> a better job of screening who they admit to the club. They can
> either keep the swingers or "yours truly" out. Their choice.
Why not make nudist clubs police managed property then? Should they have
state police manning the pools and the clubhouses so that anyone who
misbehaves is immediately arrested?
The problem with nudism is that it's not progressed from its 70's hippy
idealism of 'freedom' and 'if it feels good, do it'. What's needed for
nudism is a good old return to it as a horsewhipping discipline that frowns
on the use of cigarettes, alcohol, pornography, and illegal drugs. If you
do any of these things, you no qualify to be a naturist.
Dario Western
--
Regards,
Dario Western
"Don't deceive yourselves - nobody makes a fool of God. As you sow, you
will reap." Galatians 6:7
dario_...@nospambigpond.com
thegl...@nospamhotmail.com
larri...@nospamyahoo.com.au
(Before e-mailing remove 'nospam')
"The heart of man is deceitful and beyond cure. Who can understand it?"
5lb...@rthlrk.not
George Orwell wrote:
> >> And that's the the tip of the iceberg. Look at the swinger's clubs
> >> that pretend to be nudist camps. Yes, those scum bags who claim to
> >> be "at ease with nudity", when what they really mean is "we have
> >> sex in public", are part of the problem too.
>
> >To be honest, he has changed his tune over the years. He is no longer
> >claiming to be a nudist facility, but is openly saying that swinging is
> >what people do there. I think it's acceptable for a swing place to say
> >that they are at ease with nudity, because I think that there are some
> >swingers who aren't, and it's not fair to swingers who are expecting
> >clothing and finding nude people.
>
> I was talking about *scum bags in general* who I have heard use
> this "at ease with nudity" line. Apparently someone recognized
> a *scum bag in particular* who uses it!!!!!!
You must be talking about Peter Riden. His club might not be to everyone's liking.
But then again, if you don't like it, you don't have to go there.
cyndiann
> cyndiann of mynudelife.com notes:
>
> >> Yes, sex sells. Nudists must be ever on guard against people who
> >> would like to turn their clubs and beaches into yet another run down
> >> sex joint.
>
> >Some "sex joints" aren't run down at all actually.
>
> And some pigs can fly. I just haven't seen any.
You don't get out much do you?
>
> >Could you give an example or two of clubs you know that this
> >happened to?
>
> As if it's a BIG SECRET what I'm talking about. You don't have to
> be Ben Cartwright to know the name of the most famous of the sun
> clubs that I'm talking about. It was no "bonanza" to naturism when
> they went from legitimate AANR club to a swinger's sleaze club.
You mean Ponderosa? A swingers club? Not that I know of. They do have two
events each year called Nudes a Poppin' (I think) and it is only a weekend
each. They invite people in to photograph nude models. Outside those two
weekends the place is totally family oriented. I'm not sure where you got
the idea it is a swingers club at all, even on those weekends. Please,
research first before you make misstatements.
>
> And that's the the tip of the iceberg. Look at the swinger's clubs
> that pretend to be nudist camps. Yes, those scum bags who claim to
> be "at ease with nudity", when what they really mean is "we have
> sex in public", are part of the problem too.
Not naming places make it about impossible to take another position but I
guess that is your wish. That way you can be right and nobody can challenge
you.
I will take a stab at this one and say you are probably referring to the
Grand Barn. From what I've seen for years on rec.nude TGB has never
pretended to be nudist camps. Again, you didn't do your homework.
>
> Tolerating these people is a big mistake. They aren't nudists. Period.
Well, because I have no idea who "these people" are I can't say if they are
nudists or not. There are lots of swingers that are nudists as well. The
nude models (some are porn stars) aren't nudists and don't ever claim to be.
I'm not sure what your point is here. Please, if you want to make points at
least have valid points to make.
>
> >> Don't let the swingers into your camp. You will regret it.
>
> >Are there clubs out there that really don't have swingers?
> >I thought they all did.
>
> Just as the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts will always have
> pedophiles in their numbers, I'm sure there will always be at least one
> swinger at a nudist camp at any one time. The solution is to not let
> them practice their "craft" or nudists will regret it.
But so far the problem you've presented seems to be fabricated by you. There
is no swinger problem at Ponderosa that I know of (and I know a lot of
people from that club) and TGB members do not masquerade as nudists.
>
> Nudists don't go to swingers clubs to convert a swingers venue into
> a nudist venue, but swingers do "invade" nudists camps. Some
> nudist camps have caved in to the economic pressure to take
> swinger's money. It has cost them in the long run. These camps
> are only kidding themselves that they can "control" the swingers,
> that it's "only temporary" or that it won't hurt the "campus reputation".
Right... that's why Paradise and Caliente make so many thousands from the
swingers. Not only has it not hurt them, they are making more money than
they did or would have from merely marketing to nudists.
>
> Swingers are not the solution to solving a nudists campus money
> woes. Swingers are looking for love in all the wrong places when
> they come to a nudist camp. As a nudist you'll quickly find that
> "there goes the neighbourhood" if you let these vermin in.
You have yet to give a valid example of this happening. Many swingers are
also nudists and totally know how to act while at a nudist venue.
>
> When swingers try to turn a nudist camp into a swingers resort
> they have crossed the line. If they want to fuck each other in the
> comfort and convenience of their own homes, RVs, and cabins
> that is certainly their own business. When they fuck down by the
> nudist camp pool, they've once again crossed the line.
I've not known this to happen at nudist resorts. Got references that it is
happening?
> Nudists
> need to take a hard line on this type of behaviour. While most
> clubs don't want the "bad publicity" that comes with arresting
> people who have sex in public, arresting these swingers for
> having sex in public is exactly what is needed. If they can't
> behave as nudists at a nudist camp then let them deal with a
> sex offender's criminal record and all that goes with it.
So who isn't behaving as nudists? Both your examples aren't valid.
>
> Expelling the perverts isn't enough. They need to be convicted
> of the sex crimes they are committing if naturism is to be protected.
What law are they breaking? Where is it happening?
>
> I am done letting the club management deal with these problems.
> If I see someone having sex down by the pool, I will call the cops.
> I don't need permission to report a crime in progress. If the mgt
> doesn't want the bad publicity of an arrest, then they need to do
> a better job of screening who they admit to the club. They can
> either keep the swingers or "yours truly" out. Their choice.
>
What club's management are you referring to?
Damn boy, you surely made less sense in this post than you did in your last
one.
cyndiann
www.mynudelife.com
cyndiann
"Richard C." <post-age @spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:405b75de$0$43986$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
Except that he can't name a single place where this really happens. Don't
you find that odd?
cyndiann
www.mynudelife.com
PS Confusion
actually think they would come because you saw someone engaged in a sex act
at a nudist park? If there were children involved? Maybe.
Since the response time would most certainly be longer than the sex act it
would come to a matter of your word against the word of the offender. It's
unlikely that other bystanders, if there were any, would want to get
involved leaving you with the possibility of a civil suit against you for
slander or false arrest. I'm also not sure if a sex act in private nudist
park would be considered "public".
When a complaint was recently lodged with AANR they suggested taking
pictures and send it to them for proof. Yep! No joke! I can see it now!
"Hang on there, don't stop. I've got to run and get my camera." Wouldn't
that make you a pornographer? Maybe that's what they had in mind. When you
send them the pictures they would turn them over to the authorities and have
YOU arrested.
The front page of the Penn Sylvan web site has a disclaimer stating the use
of any kind of camera is strictly forbidden. A policy that was initiated
after a particularly wild party during which someone actually took pictures
of ___. Until the incident the use of cameras at Penn Sylvan was
commonplace. I was always amazed how openly people used their cameras. Even
on the sunning lawn. One fellow in particular carried a video camera with
him on a regular basis. For the most part he kept it hidden but I saw him
using it a number of times. I'm sure he has quite an extensive library of
video's shot at Penn Sylvan.
The bottom line is, it's not as easy as you suggest. It's something that
can't be done by just one person. There are many people at Penn Sylvan that
feel as I do but THEY won't get up off their ass. Complacency, denial, fear
of exposure (most nudists don't want or can't afford notoriety) and fear of
the management all play a part in the reason. Unless you have intimate
knowledge of the management there you can't fully understand, as CHEEF
doesn't, what I mean by fear of the management. His tactics are legendary to
the members.
You may ask why don't they just leave. My answer is, some have left and more
will follow. Especially when they finally come to realize that things aren't
going to get better at Penn Sylvan. There are currently more vacant lots and
lots for sale then I have ever seen and there will be more to come. But for
most their are no reasonable alternatives. So they hang on hoping things
will improve.
I only wish.
Peter Riden
Well observed about that low-to-no lifer, John.
He has the arrogance to come and blurt the following "Look at the
swinger's clubs that pretend to be nudist camps. Yes, those scum bags
who claim to be "at ease with nudity", when what they really mean is
"we have sex in public", are part of the problem too."
You don't like that we enjoy life to the most... tough for you.
Bite the dust. That was a nasty and unwelcome attack against the
swingers community.. and I don't take it.
This one triber and his ilks are so pathetic that they'll blurt
anything to cover their own disfunctional tracks.
First, the low lifer likes to label. Again, let me repeat that I
welcome those who see themselves as "swingers" as much as I welcome
the least militant who see themselves as "nudists" without much
attached to it. But we're no camp and we don't pretend what I know
we're not.
I also want to take those little nobodies head on.
I'd like to see any of those tribers to come face to face. I'd party
with any of them. Those who suck up to Dan Roth and his narrow-minded,
disfunctional claims of naturism/nudism better not come and bother me
with what I believe Nude Recreation is for most people out there.
And yes I'm At Ease With Nudity.. and if passionate occurrences
occur... it's not for the placid, disfuntional self-declared nudist
like Georgy.
I'm still going on strong and the futile attacks attempted against
what I offer will always take a serious beating.
That one will be no exception.
Anyhow, John... keep the few malcontents on their toes..;-)
In Friendship & Universality
Peter Riden
for THE WORLDWIDE AFFILIATE NETWORK {T.W.A.N.}
http://www.the-worldwide-affiliate-network.com
T.W.A.N.'s very own newsgroup: alt.the-worldwide-affiliate-network
THE GRAND BARN {TGB}:http://www.the-grand-barn.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheGrandBarn
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/It-s_About_Time/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Affiliate-Online
Fried Liver
devolving back toward the ape. That means we are more fixated on sex
and violence and the basic animal urges. One can see it in the way
swinging and nudists have clashed in this group over the years. Some
who advocate swinging can not understand nudism...like an ape can not
read a book.
It is going to get worse.
Peter Riden
<cphil...@nottampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>"George Orwell" <nob...@mixmaster.it> wrote in message
>news:6b4577a8287193a3...@mixmaster.it...
>> cyndiann of mynudelife.com notes:
>>
>> And that's the the tip of the iceberg. Look at the swinger's clubs
>> that pretend to be nudist camps. Yes, those scum bags who claim to
>> be "at ease with nudity", when what they really mean is "we have
>> sex in public", are part of the problem too.
>.......I will take a stab at this one and say you are probably referring to the
>Grand Barn. From what I've seen for years on rec.nude TGB has never
>pretended to be nudist camps. Again, you didn't do your homework.
>
CyndiAnn,
I appreciate you take the time to expose the fallacies of one
frustrated triber who has no interest in doing his homework but rather
wants to make a name of himself (as uncomplimentary it will turn out
for him) in another futile attempt at attacking the notorious TGB and
its well honored owner..;-)
>> Tolerating these people is a big mistake. They aren't nudists. Period.
>
>Well, because I have no idea who "these people" are I can't say if they are
>nudists or not. There are lots of swingers that are nudists as well. The
>nude models (some are porn stars) aren't nudists and don't ever claim to be.
>I'm not sure what your point is here. Please, if you want to make points at
>least have valid points to make.
Again.. it's only a futile semblance of attack by a dysfunctional
celibate member of TLT..;-)
>>
>> >> Don't let the swingers into your camp. You will regret it.
>>
>> >Are there clubs out there that really don't have swingers?
>> >I thought they all did.
>>
>> Just as the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts will always have
>> pedophiles in their numbers, I'm sure there will always be at least one
>> swinger at a nudist camp at any one time. The solution is to not let
>> them practice their "craft" or nudists will regret it.
>
>But so far the problem you've presented seems to be fabricated by you. There
>is no swinger problem at Ponderosa that I know of (and I know a lot of
>people from that club) and TGB members do not masquerade as nudists.
He doesn't like the fact we're getting good results with people who
don't want to go for the placid, dysfunctional type of nude recreation
pushed forth by TLT members.
More so.. this inane blurt has been in the waiting since I have little
time with rec.nude and other related newsgroups these days.
They think they can dance when the big guy is busy somewhere else..;-)
>> Nudists don't go to swingers clubs to convert a swingers venue into
>> a nudist venue, but swingers do "invade" nudists camps. Some
>> nudist camps have caved in to the economic pressure to take
>> swinger's money. It has cost them in the long run. These camps
>> are only kidding themselves that they can "control" the swingers,
>> that it's "only temporary" or that it won't hurt the "campus reputation".
>
>Right... that's why Paradise and Caliente make so many thousands from the
>swingers. Not only has it not hurt them, they are making more money than
>they did or would have from merely marketing to nudists.
We must not forget that he's also attacking the "swingers" community
with quite some frustration so that the numbers you rightly bring
forth won't matter for the blinded man.
>> Swingers are not the solution to solving a nudists campus money
>> woes. Swingers are looking for love in all the wrong places when
>> they come to a nudist camp. As a nudist you'll quickly find that
>> "there goes the neighbourhood" if you let these vermin in.
>
>You have yet to give a valid example of this happening. Many swingers are
>also nudists and totally know how to act while at a nudist venue.
The label insistence is what creates that inanity to persist.
At TGB people come as they are and their conduct will be the factor to
their stay... or not.. although, like George, the low-to-no lifers
self-eliminate themselves right upon reading what we undisguisedly
offer.. so case solved.
In anyway.. I can take on George and his ilk anytime.. any day,
anyhow..;-)
Sherry
Peter Riden
wrote:
>On the surface calling the state police sounds like a plan, but do you
>actually think they would come because you saw someone engaged in a sex act
>at a nudist park? If there were children involved? Maybe.
OK, I played along, for couple of posts, but it's well known that
George Orwell (1984), the real one, would feel insulted to see that
our Anonymous cretin is using his name to start a new wave of attacks
against his big Nemesis, Peter Riden.
That ON~Anon is a snitch.. it's well known.
We usually take care of snitches in a very efficient way.
But this one has been needed all along and we'll use him/it again..;-)
That he truly helps uncover who are the members of The Little Tribe
for which he has become the infamous spokesperson till Cheef publicly
repudiated him/it.. at the time.
Well, I'll leave it to others who want to amuse themselves with our
anonymous low-to-no lifer but I'll do some spot checks once in a while
to keep amusing myself with his renewed benevolent promotion of
TGB..;-)
John can handle this one easy..;-)
jon...@webtv.net
take a look....the junk tv host have no use for them anymore....the law
has no respect for them as their dogma over the years has become so
obvious to the general public..and of course here in rec nude
also...willy in az dares tell the truth about the state of tribal nudism
and its demise....clubs are closing.....membership is off.....he
he....seems to me an organization trying to find a hole to crawl
in.......they are a sickly bunch....oh well the world of swingers are no
phony group and as far as i can tell has the respect of law as well as
others.....not to say that everyone approves of their recreational
behavior but at least there is no dogma or false pretenses.....the women
and children of tribal nudist are now beginning to come forth with their
truths of dogma and deceivery and bring the truth and it seems reputable
tv host will be quite interested....rec nude can come of age and spark a
new honest approach to nude recreation....hope you have an early
spring.....john
Stuffed Tiger
wrote:
...snip...
>
>The bottom line is, it's not as easy as you suggest. It's something that
>can't be done by just one person. There are many people at Penn Sylvan that
>feel as I do but THEY won't get up off their ass.
...snip...
We were just at Penn Sylvan yesterday. The sauna was full. The hot tub
and heated pool were sparkling and in constant use. The shower was
nice and hot. The recent snow had been removed. The large common area
was clean. The tennis court was green, free of snow and ready for use.
People were in _great_ spirits and having a very good time. I would
have to say there was not one shred of evidence visible to support
your negative claims on this newsgroup.
To the contrary, I saw many indications the management is doing an
outstanding job insuring a wholesome family environment is maintained
for everyone. For example, they checked my AANR card and asked me to
sign a form indicating I would agree to abide by AANR standards. See
http://www.pennsylvan.org/about.html
for other elements of their policy that I felt were accurate. Again,
as far as I could see, their policies are not only in force, but are
the policies of and for the membership. Note that the management does
not own Penn Sylvan, but rather reports to a board of nudist members.
From the people I talked with, there was no indication whatsoever of
any bad feelings. Everyone was relaxed and having a good time. There
was none of the rampant paranoia you have implied. Just the opposite.
What is the matter with you, PS Confusion? I understand you may have
an intense dislike of the current management, but that does not excuse
your florid and slanderous attacks on nudists at Penn Sylvan. You
claim your issues are recent, yet I have listed similar postings on
Rec.Nude with identical content under another name. They are old and
discredited postings, yet you make it seem as if they are fresh.
How can it be that conditions are as bad as you have implied, yet when
I go there suddenly everything just happens to be really nice and
everyone is happy. What are you trying to accomplish, PS Confusion?
What is your real agenda, PS Confusion? Are you trying to sow
confusion over conditions at Penn Sylvan to get back at them?
Penn Sylvan is a really nice, wholesome family nudist resort.
Unhappily, you are in a dispute with the management, but that is no
excuse for your abusive statements. Your claims as to conditions at
Penn Sylvan are shameful in the face of what I witnessed yesterday.
Hang your head,
Stuffed Tiger
Rick Adams
<nob...@mixmaster.it> :
>Well, hells bells, there's your problem! Stop calling Penn
>Sylvan management and start calling the Pennsylvania State Police.
>If there are fuckers engaging in sexual activity in public, that's
>a crime. Have the fuckers arrested. Take some pictures. If Penn
>Sylvan doesn't like that, let them know that your pictures are now
>evidence and if they try to confiscate the pictures or otherwise
>destroy them, that may very well be obstruction of justice and
>they'll get a jail cell right next to Martha Stewart. Whether this
>is true or not is not the point. It will make them think twice
>as to whether they are "the law" inside the camp. They aren't.
>State law still applies to them and they need to be reminded
>of that.
I assume by your post that you would have no objection to
someone taking your picture at a nude beach and reporting you for
public indecency, right?
Or is it only behaviors YOU don't approve of that should be
prosecuted?
>After that Penn Sylvan management will get off their lazy fat
>asses and do something pro-active. They won't like the bad
>publicity an arrest brings and will want to avoid another incident.
They won't like the pressure the community will bring on them
to close the club as a result either. If the members don't want
swingers there, the answer is pretty simple: refuse to renew their
memberships unless the club does something about them. One of two
things will happen; the swingers will go or they will turn out to be
the majority (unlikely, but possible) and the non-swingers will go
instead. Either way, the majority will make the decision, not some
right-wing extremist with a camera and the telephone number of the
police.
>But if that's too much work for you, then you should really consider
>whether you are all that offended or are just flapping your jaws here
>on rec.nude.
Which, of course is the key point. MANY people here "flap
their jaws" about swingers--yet when it comes to making their position
clear to the management of a club and risking their memberships as a
result of refusal to renew if the swingers remain, they suddenly get
cold feet.
Frankly, so long as the activities are in private rather than
in the public areas, I fail completely to see why anyone has a right
to complain in the first place. What adults do in private isn't
anyone's business but their own. If half the members of a club were
swingers, and all behaved properly in public, it would make absolutely
no difference to the other non-swinging members at all.
>This problem isn't difficult to solve, but it's certainly not the most
>pleasant thing you'll do today. Sure, we wish all this shit would
>just magically stop all by itself. But it won't. If you see someone
>doing something inappropriate and just look the other way, you're part
>of the problem. So be part of the solution. You can make a difference.
>Pick up that phone and call the police the next time you see it happen.
And do the same thing next time you see someone violate the
public indecency laws at a beach, etc. as well. After all, if you're
so strong on the law you should certainly support reporting those who
violate it in ANY setting, right?
>This really is no different from neighbourhoods who will no longer
>tolerate drug dealing on their street corners. When the neighbours
>all pull together and report the crooks, they either go to jail or go
>somewhere else. Either way the neighbours win. So can you.
And if that neighborhood were to start reporting people for
swinging in their homes--or for entertaining nudists in the nude at
home--would you support that as well?
>But you've got to take the first step and make that phone call.
Or take the first step and mind your own business unless the
behavior is public in which case it should be reported to the
management, not the police. If the management won't do anything about
public sex on the grounds, then it's time to consider changing clubs.
Rick
Rick Adams
ada...@ITdirecway.com
Take IT out before sending
"... and the only measure of your worth and your deeds will be the love you leave behind when you're gone."
-Fred Small, J.D., "Everything Possible"
Molly Wilson
controversy over this camp in rec nude....i am sure they are on their
best behavior.......however to give an adequate report would include who
was there....ages ...it isnt that hard but it shows a cowardly attempt
at not doing so....how many children.....how were they acting....and who
was the ones responsible for all those children......and how about the
personel....was one left in their quarters with a black eye because of
failure to submit herself to a sex assaulter.......or be on the job
naked for the male clientele.....shangri la in az was seen as the
perfect wholesome family a few years back.....but the feds arrested the
owner and he had assaulted the female cook for whatever reason....and
was guilty of tax evasion from bingo parlors he operated in
oregon....his wife was also arrested......they did some time and could
all be read about in the phoenix newpaper......so any one can paint your
picture but the real truth lies within that is not so
visible.....nakedness does attract the worst of the worst....so it can
never be as you say....jonZeee
@spamcop.net Richard C.
Jonzee forgot to change over from his predator name after cruising the
pre-teen chat rooms.
What a sick putz!
================================
"Molly Wilson" <mollye...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:529-405E...@storefull-3177.bay.webtv.net...
: phony tiger......yeah.....a typical tribal report...and since all the
:
Stuffed Tiger
mollye...@webtv.net (Molly Wilson)
TROLL JonZee. Got around our kill filters. That's abuse, JonZee.
@spamcop.net Richard C.
news:5aqs50p9rj2eog05s...@4ax.com...
: On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 18:10:52 -0600 (CST),
:
: mollye...@webtv.net (Molly Wilson)
:
: TROLL JonZee. Got around our kill filters. That's abuse, JonZee.
=======================
He has slipped up many times and forgotten to change from his troll name
used in the pre-teen chat rooms.
He is a very sick individual.
E R
like that.
George Orwell
>There is an ever increasing problem with time. We are, as a society,
>devolving back toward the ape. That means we are more fixated on sex
>and violence and the basic animal urges. One can see it in the way
>swinging and nudists have clashed in this group over the years. Some
>who advocate swinging can not understand nudism...like an ape can not
>read a book.
So you're saying that swingers monkey around at your nudist camp?
It's bed time for bonzo, pal!
George Orwell
>actually think they would come because you saw someone engaged in a
>sex act at a nudist park? If there were children involved? Maybe.
I don't need to be Kevin Costner to tell you, "If you call them,
they will come."
I've seen the local police patrolling at least one major nudist camp.
If I told them there was someone fucking down by the pool, they'd
investigate. It's illegal to have sex in public and they would enforce
the law. Of that I have no doubt.
But suppose they refuse. The next stop is the local newspaper.
Think the shit will hit the fan then? You bet it will. It's a last
resort though. It's like the atomic bomb. There's lots of fall out
if you use it.
I think you'd be surprised at how easy it is to get even fat, donut
eating cops, to visit the "nudist colony". They're looking for an
excuse to see all the "nudies" and by making that phone call, even
an anonymous one, you've just handed them one. They will come.
>"Hang on there, don't stop. I've got to run and get my camera."
>Wouldn't that make you a pornographer? Maybe that's what they had
>in mind. When you send them the pictures they would turn them over
>to the authorities and have YOU arrested.
Yeah, if you photographed someone shooting someone, I'm sure the police
would arrest you for making "snuff films".
Get real.
You need evidence. Get it. Let the cops develop the film. That's what
disposable cameras were made for. Or use your cell phone. Your choice.
>The bottom line is, it's not as easy as you suggest. It's something
>that can't be done by just one person.
Sure it can. But it takes balls to do it. It's never easy to stand
up against group norms. It's much easier to cave in and go with the
flock. But what does that make you then? Sheep?
It that really bothers you, then report the crime anonymously.
But there is something you can do about this. You don't have to
take it. Once again, the choice is yours. Sit back and allow the
camp to go to hell, or stand up and do something about it. Or as
another poster suggested: RUN AWAY!
George Orwell
>someone taking your picture at a nude beach and reporting you for
>public indecency, right?
That is correct. If I am breaking the law they have every right to
do that. The law is the law. Don't like it? Get the law changed.
>Or is it only behaviors YOU don't approve of that should be
>prosecuted?
As much as you try to spin this, you'll not succeed. Taking a swingers
picture as he and his partner break the law is a good method to control
this unwanted behaviour. Take their picture, have them arrested, hope
the courts brand them a sex offender, keep them out of the naturist club.
It works for me.
It takes guts to take a stand and make it stick. Most naturist
don't have the balls to do this. They'll tell you to mind your
own business, to look the other way, or to let the "management"
worry about it. I'm done with that. I'd no sooner let a swinger
fuck in public at my club -- and it is MY club, I pay my dues -- than
I would let a robber rob or a rapist rape. What they are doing is
against state and local laws and I will see those laws enforced.
Don't like it? Too bad. It's my right to report such crimes.
>>But you've got to take the first step and make that phone call.
> Or take the first step and mind your own business unless the
>behavior is public in which case it should be reported to the
>management, not the police. If the management won't do anything about
>public sex on the grounds, then it's time to consider changing clubs.
So you follow the Monty Python method? "Run away! Run away!"
Yes, no one is required to report a crime or a fire for that matter.
It's not a crime not to report a crime in progress. But that doesn't
mean that it's illegal to report a crime or that one should just let
crime happen.
I will report to law enforcement anyone I see breaking the law,
even if it's just stealing the radio out of your van. You may not like
former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani because he got tough
with the petty crimes in N.Y.C., but it was shown that when the police
ignore the petty crimes the major crimes soar. By cracking down
on the small stuff, the petty crimes, he made a major impact on
the quality of life.
I see swinging in the same light. When nudists ignore the swingers
and allow them to operate at a nudist camp and then the nudists just
run away when they can't take it any longer, they contribute to the
demise of the camp.
I won't let that happen.
So you run away. I will stand and fight for what is right. Management
be dammed. They aren't the law. Their job is to clean the toilets
and cut the grass. Law enforcement will enforce the law.
starwars
You're just saying that because it's true.
Isn't he one of Peter Riden's pals? Maybe I'm wrong about that.
Stuffed Tiger
wrote:
>I thought he was using "phony tiger" to mock Stuffed Tiger or something
>like that.
No. He used "Molly Wilson."
BTW, that could not be a mockery in any case because a stuffed tiger
_is_ a phony tiger, so to speak. I would hate for people to think I
was a real tiger - in any way that might be taken.
After all, this is just a discussion group. :-)
Stuffed Tiger
wrote:
>Languidly tweaking the nose of fate, thus spake George Orwell
><nob...@mixmaster.it> :
>
...snip...
>
>>After that Penn Sylvan management will get off their lazy fat
>>asses and do something pro-active. They won't like the bad
>>publicity an arrest brings and will want to avoid another incident.
>
> They won't like the pressure the community will bring on them
>to close the club as a result either.
...snip...
Nothing recent, but...
I happened to be there last winter when the police came. From what I
saw, the staff at Penn Sylvan had a good relationship with the local
police. The local police for their part were courteous, respectful and
helpful. They were in-shape and looked and acted very professional.
It was ice cold and windy with snow on the ground, but the police came
anyway and did not seem to mind that the problem was minor. I was at
the office to get checked in and had to wait for the police to
complete their paperwork, which was nearly complete at that point, so
I did not overhear the whole story. Afterwards, in the hot tub, I did
talk to the member who reported the incident.
As someone said, it is important to get the police involved in minor
incidents, not sweep them under the rug. Well, they did. This was not
a sexual behavior issue, though, but it is indicative.
As far as I can see there are no sexual behavior issues at Penn Sylvan
that need attending to. It is a wholesome family nudist facility, nice
and clean, rustic, charming even, inexpensive with good water and air
and lot of trees and grass and people. We need more Penn Sylvans IMHO.
Stuffed Tiger
P.S. Welcome back Rick. I was hoping you were taking a break and you
were OK. Good to hear from you.
Rick Adams
<No...@NotAnAddress.com> :
>P.S. Welcome back Rick. I was hoping you were taking a break and you
>were OK. Good to hear from you.
Thanks. Actually, I had a major system crash (power supply
died and took my graphics card and two drives with it), so I'm using
my spare machine while I rebuild the other one.
But the "break" _was_ refreshing! :-)
I see we've inherited a "cross-gender George" since I was last
on. For a guy who is a legal freak (if you break the law he'll report
you at once no matter how petty that law is), he sure doesn't seem to
practice what he preaches. It's against the law to transmit
obscenities across state lines--yet his response to spam is filled
with them. Transgender behavior is illegal in several states where
this newsgroup is received, yet he claims to be a woman in some of
his/her posts. And regardless of the fact that the law is ignored,
nudity in the presence of members of the opposite sex or of children
is illegal in MANY states, yet he doesn't seem to be reporting AANR
clubs for group violations of those laws. Funny how narrow someone's
vision can be when he claims "the other guy" is the criminal, isn't
it?
Oh well, at least he can post more coherently than JZ--that
makes responding to his right wing extremism more entertaining.
George Orwell
Oh, Ricky. The world does not revolve around you, no matter what
your mommy told you. It's not about you Rick. Really.
>For a guy who is a legal freak (if you break the law he'll report
>you at once no matter how petty that law is), he sure doesn't seem to
>practice what he preaches.
You're right Rick. Next time I see someone breaking into your car
or home, I'll remember this and mind my own business.
But seriously Rick, now that I have your attention, you wouldn't
know a joke if it came up and bit you on your naked fat ass. You
got your nose tweaked and now you're trying to make a mountain
out of a mole hill. It's not about you Rick. Really. I'd turn in any
fucker I found having sex at a nudist camp, whether it be you,
George W. Bush or Peter Riden. I'm an equal opportunity
oppressor.
>It's against the law to transmit obscenities across state
>lines--yet his response to spam is filled with them.
Fortunately not everyone lives in the USA, where you've
given up your constitutional rights to free speech to gain
a little temporary security. What did one of your great
statesmen, Benjamin Franklin, have to say about those
who would trade essential liberties for a little temporary
security? Maybe you should look that up. No, wait.
Maybe you should FUCKING look that up. Yeah, that's
better.
E R
What is the law about public sexual activity in Italy anyway since your
e-mail address (nob...@mixmaster.IT) seems to indicate that you are from
Italy?
Regarding your Ben Franklin quote, it seems to indicate that you are not
from the USA also. The First Amendment supposedly was not originally
intended to protect prostitution and obscenity. (I don't like words like
obscene because they are not easily enough understood by all. Give me a
good Anglo-Saxon word, thanks.) How many in the USA have gone to the
trouble to learn what the original meaning is? How many of them insist
on sticking to it?
Frankly I like it that this newsgroup is a little rough-and-tumble.
Frankly if they are doing it in the dark for the excitement of the risk
rather than deliberately in broad daylight so everyone can see maybe I
would let it go. OTOH if they are doing it IN the pool, that is a
sanitary hazard. Doing it on the grass where folks might walk barefoot
is a sanitary hazard too, IMO. Switching partners (called wife-swapping
or swinging, I think) rather than sticking exclusively to their
respective spouse is also a big sanitary hazard.
If they are not being faithful to their spouses, everyone should get to
know if they are caught out in public.
Maybe knowing that they will almost certainly be written up in the local
paper at their own expense would discourage such conduct? I think that
sometimes, such as in that CA county which brands folks who are naked as
sex offenders, the penalty is disproportionately severe and generally
unchecked by a real jury trial.
I have not actually encountered this at a place I feel ownership for,
though. Maybe then I would be a fire-breather about it too.
George Orwell
>rather than deliberately in broad daylight so everyone can see maybe I
>would let it go.
Not if you are a true nudist. These swingers may take off their
clothes, but they aren't nudists. They'll say that they are, Nikki
Craft will say that they are, but in fact they are just perverts
having sex in public.
Nudists know what damage filth like this poses to our hobby. I have
no problem with people who want to swing -- in the privacy of their
own home or tent or whatever. But when they cross the line and have
sex in public at a nudist camp I call the cops. The cops don't call
them nudists either. They call them sex offenders.
Or to put it in terms they'll understand: "Arrest them all and let John
Ashcroft sort it out".
Fortunately there are still clubs in the USA that know the difference
between naturism and swinging. They do their best to keep the
perverts out. It's those clubs I take my family to.
cyndiann
Actually the problem is that people (like you) consider sex as "filth" and
once people get over it and realize sex is not filth we will have much
lessof a problem with plain old nudity. That they were swingers is totally
irrelevant to this because they were having sex with their married partner.
I would bet that a high percentage of nudists have had sex outside late at
night in the dark. You don't get to take a shot at them just because you've
labeled them swingers.
Oh, and BTW, there is no such creature as a "true nudist" except for in your
mind.
cyndiann
Stuffed Tiger
<cphil...@nottampabay.rr.com> wrote:
...snip...
>
>I would bet that a high percentage of nudists have had sex outside late at
>night in the dark. You don't get to take a shot at them just because you've
>labeled them swingers.
>
...snip...
Yeah, but they get eaten alive by mosquitoes so we never hear of them.
cyndiann
"Stuffed Tiger" <No...@NotAnAddress.com> wrote in message
Hahaha! Good one!
cyndiann
Kathleen
>between naturism and swinging. They do their best to keep the
>perverts out. It's those clubs I take my family to.
Which clubs are those?
Kathleen
Take the time to live!!!
Life is too short - Dance naked
George Orwell
>"filth" and once people get over it and realize sex is not filth
That's bullshit. There's nothing filthy about sex. But there are
filthy people who have sex in public to try to shock others.
>That they were swingers is totally irrelevant to this because they were
>having sex with their married partner.
Horse shit. They were trying to get something started. When they were
unable to get the regulars to "swing" they decide to try a shock and awe
campaign. Well, it backfired. Or maybe they just get off in causing a
scene. Either way, it was very much tied to them being swingers.
They were either clueless at how to behave as nudists or they were
trying to shock the nudists.
There is no defending what these swingers did, no matter how you
spin this.
>I would bet that a high percentage of nudists have had sex outside
>late at night in the dark. You don't get to take a shot at them
>just because you've labeled them swingers.
"Nudists" who get caught having sex in public aren't nudists at
that camp for very long. In fact, they aren't nudists but if
arrested and convicted they are sex offenders.
>Oh, and BTW, there is no such creature as a "true nudist" except
>for in your mind.
Sure there is. Visit the TNS web site and learn something about being
a nudist.
It's more than just taking off your clothes and running around naked.
For starters, nudists don't have sex in public. I hate to break it to
you sweetheart, but you're not a nudist. You're just a pervert.
Dan Abel
<cphil...@nottampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> "George Orwell" <nob...@mixmaster.it> wrote in message
> news:2f65a9266b3b0eec...@mixmaster.it...
[note that I have altered these words and substituted "chess players" for
"swingers"]
> > Not if you are a true nudist. These chess players may take off their
> > clothes, but they aren't nudists. They'll say that they are, Nikki
> > Craft will say that they are, but in fact they are just perverts
> > having sex in public.
> > Fortunately there are still clubs in the USA that know the difference
> > between naturism and chess playing. They do their best to keep the
> > perverts out. It's those clubs I take my family to.
There are swingers, and there are nudists. They are two separate groups.
There are swingers who are nudists, and nudists who are swingers, but
neither implies the other.
There are chess players, and there are nudists. They are two separate
groups. There are chess players who are nudists, and nudists who are
chess players, but neither implies the other.
There is no need to keep the swingers or the chess players out. If some
chess players are having sex in public at a nudist facility, then kick
them out. But not because they are chess players.
And if some people are making others uncomfortable by hitting on them
inappropriately, then kick them out too. Not because they are swingers,
or single males, or married women, or 80 year old grandmothers. Because
they are not behaving as they should.
> Oh, and BTW, there is no such creature as a "true nudist" except for in your
> mind.
I agree. I don't always agree with Jenni's "True Scotsman" story, but it
applies here. Just because a nudist behaves inappropriately doesn't mean
that they aren't a "True Nudist", it means that they aren't welcome.
--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS
da...@sonic.net
eyes4u666
>PS Confusion:
I have been watching this thread and several like it for sometime now,
and I would like to comment generally on the statements being put
forth about Penn Sylvan. I have been a weekend visitor at Penn Sylvan
for several years and I have always had a very positive experience at
the club. What I have actually witnessed is a large group of members
and visitors striving to provide a place in the sun for nudists. WHY
do you blast these marvelous individuals with your malicious
diatribe? As a matter of fact a couple of years ago I was cornered by
a husband and wife team (they claimed to be long time members) who
tried to convince me what an awful place Penn Sylvan had become,
complaining vehemently about the facilities, members and management.
At the time my inner voice said, why do you continue your membership
in a place you hate so much????? Please, don't trash the place I have
come to love. It now seems that PS Confusion is presenting those very
same arguments here. PS Confusion are you that couple????? Have you
taken your savage voice on the road? It sure sounds like it. Listen,
we all have our own opinions, thoughts and ideologies on just about
every subject know to man. That being said, there is a vast
difference between opinions, thoughts, ideologies, and LIES. In this
particular case, written lies...i.e. slander. I ask readers to take PS
confusion's comments as the comments of a simple muckraker who has an
axe to grind. Visit Penn Sylvan and see for yourself a bit of Eden.
Visit with members as I have and find many beautiful people. Develop
your own opinions about the place.
PS Confusion also seems to be worried about recent increases in
membership dues, and other fees. As a weekend visitor, the fees at
Penn Sylvan seem on track with other nudist resorts/camps I have
visited. After reading PS Confusion's comments I did a little
research. I called Penn Sylvan and asked about the fees for
memberships and lot fees. I also called many other nudist
resorts/camps for the same information. It seems to me that Penn
Sylvan's fees are on track with most other nudist resorts having
similar amenities on the east coast. Ok, after chatting with a few lot
owners, it seems that their lot fees have recently been increased and
they are trying to cope with increased rates. Several long time lot
owners admitted that in the last twenty years or so lot rates were not
increased. In actuality, one would think a member would feel lucky to
have missed out on years of increases that should have been imposed,
and be thankful for the money that was saved over the years. It also
is apparent to me that as a weekend visitor I only see the surface of
the camp. I have never been burdened with the cost of running and
maintaining the facilities at Penn Sylvan. I can only imagine these
costs are tremendous. Penn Sylvan is one of the few camps open year
round! Penn Sylvan is after all a business, and I defy you to show me
one business that has not raised prices to cover such expenses!! Lot
owners should be thankful they have benefited financially for
drastically reduced fees for the last twenty years. The readers are
invited to check other nudist camps/resorts for their fees. You will
find that Penn Sylvan's fees are not even close to being out of line.
Welcome to the real world of business PS Confusion!
Lastly, I would like to comment on PS Confusion's posting concerning
sexual activity at camp functions, and the covering of windows for
"adult only" parties. I cannot find the exact quote at the moment.
But, yes I remember there was one such party, and I just happened to
walk through the club house as the party was in progress. I was
invited to stay for a bit of birthday cake. It was a birthday party
for an adult member and a birthday cake was presented that was of an
adult nature. I assume the individuals who organized the party did not
wish to worry about who might have been offended by the cake or the
possibility of a child inadvertently walking into the party, as I did,
and posted a sign. I personally witnessed no sexual activity; however
there was some great music and a little dancing that was far milder
than that what I see at many public night clubs I visit on occasion.
Hey, PS Confusion, it is okay to be an adult. Sometimes children
should not be present for adult gatherings. This does not imply
sexual activity is taking place, just that you may not want your
children to be in the company of adults from time to time. I have a
daughter and I would have no objections to her being at any camp
function at Penn Sylvan. Besides, most children don't want to hang
with adults anyway. Lastly, I have NEVER been approached for sexual
activity at Penn Sylvan (maybe I should feel rejected) and I do feel
very, very safe there during my visits.
In summation, I concur with The Cheef, PS Confusion has an axe to
grind, so grind away. In the words of the great philosopher Lisa
Simpson, PS Confusion you are a baboon and a prude….evolve!! Most
readers will understand PS Confusion's statements are just the
mindless and unsubstantiated diatribe of a disgruntled member (or is
it former member(s)?). Individuals who feel disenfranchised by their
own behavior should look inward before slandering others.
Eyes4u666
Cheef
news:dabel-24030...@ssu-64en129.sonoma.edu:
>> > These chess players may take off
>> > their clothes, but they aren't nudists. They'll say that they are,
>> > Nikki Craft will say that they are, but in fact they are just
>> > perverts having sex in public.
The World Chess Federation would like a word with you.
--
visit CHEEF.COM - Your CHEEF source for nudist info
Subscribe to NUDIST NEWS! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nudist-news-group
cyndiann
> >Actually the problem is that people (like you) consider sex as
> >"filth" and once people get over it and realize sex is not filth
> >we will have much less of a problem with plain old nudity.
>
> That's bullshit. There's nothing filthy about sex. But there are
> filthy people who have sex in public to try to shock others.
>
> >That they were swingers is totally irrelevant to this because they were
> >having sex with their married partner.
>
> Horse shit. They were trying to get something started. When they were
> unable to get the regulars to "swing" they decide to try a shock and awe
> campaign. Well, it backfired. Or maybe they just get off in causing a
> scene. Either way, it was very much tied to them being swingers.
When I wrote that it had not been revealed that this couple were having sex
in front of a group of people and you know that. Play games with someone
else please.
>
> They were either clueless at how to behave as nudists or they were
> trying to shock the nudists.
>
> There is no defending what these swingers did, no matter how you
> spin this.
>
> >I would bet that a high percentage of nudists have had sex outside
> >late at night in the dark. You don't get to take a shot at them
> >just because you've labeled them swingers.
>
> "Nudists" who get caught having sex in public aren't nudists at
> that camp for very long. In fact, they aren't nudists but if
> arrested and convicted they are sex offenders.
>
> >Oh, and BTW, there is no such creature as a "true nudist" except
> >for in your mind.
>
> Sure there is. Visit the TNS web site and learn something about being
> a nudist.
Nowhere on that website will you find the term "true nudist". It isn't a
valid term.
>
> It's more than just taking off your clothes and running around naked.
>
> For starters, nudists don't have sex in public. I hate to break it to
> you sweetheart, but you're not a nudist. You're just a pervert.
>
>
What would make you think I am a pervert? And what is your definition of
pervert?
cyndiann
Dan Abel
<ch...@cheef.com> wrote:
> da...@sonic.net (Dan Abel) wrote in
> news:dabel-24030...@ssu-64en129.sonoma.edu:
>
> >> > These chess players may take off
> >> > their clothes, but they aren't nudists. They'll say that they are,
> >> > Nikki Craft will say that they are, but in fact they are just
> >> > perverts having sex in public.
>
> The World Chess Federation would like a word with you.
First I pissed off the woodworkers, now I'm pissing off the chess players!
:-)
Dan Jordan
Main Entry: 1per·vert
Pronunciation: p&r-'v&rt
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French pervertir, from Latin
pervertere to overturn, corrupt, pervert, from per- thoroughly +
vertere to turn -- more at PER-, WORTH
1 a : to cause to turn aside or away from what is good or true or
morally right : CORRUPT b : to cause to turn aside or away from what
is generally done or accepted : MISDIRECT
2 a : to divert to a wrong end or purpose : MISUSE b : to twist the
meaning or sense of : MISINTERPRET
synonym see DEBASE
- per·vert·er noun
Rick Adams
<nob...@mixmaster.it> :
>Oh, Ricky. The world does not revolve around you, no matter what
>your mommy told you. It's not about you Rick. Really.
Heck, I know that.
It couldn't be--it isn't rational! :-)
>You're right Rick. Next time I see someone breaking into your car
>or home, I'll remember this and mind my own business.
There's a major difference between reporting someone who is
committing a crime with an identifiable victim and someone who is
engaging in behavior you personally find offensive.
Personally, I'd rather not watch people having open sex,
either. To me, unless that behavior occurring under very specific
circumstances (e.g., a sixties "love-in"), it tends to degrade the
sexual experience and limit sex to a carnal act alone. But that's my
perspective, and not binding on others.
Certainly if the rules of a club prohibit the behavior, it's
reasonable to report it to the club. And if, as a paying member, you
find the club is unwilling to respond to your personal needs by
enforcing its rules, it's equally reasonable to vote with your dollars
by changing to a club where your needs are better met. But involving
the police in what is basically a rules violation takes things way too
far. Not only do you put the club (and hence the interests of all the
members) at risk by doing so, but you impose your personal values on
everyone. Admittedly, public sex is illegal in our culture. So is
public nudity--even on private property in many states. Unless you are
prepared to have your personal values determined by the rules imposed
by others, you really have no justification in supporting the
imposition of values on others simply because they don't agree with
your own.
>But seriously Rick, now that I have your attention, you wouldn't
>know a joke if it came up and bit you on your naked fat ass. You
>got your nose tweaked and now you're trying to make a mountain
>out of a mole hill. It's not about you Rick. Really. I'd turn in any
>fucker I found having sex at a nudist camp, whether it be you,
>George W. Bush or Peter Riden. I'm an equal opportunity
>oppressor.
That I believe.
On the other hand, it simply makes my point that you believe
your values to be, in some way, superior to those of others.
I'm sure you would be the first to complain if the nudist
clubs and beaches you attend were shut down because some unenforced
law concerning nudity in public was enforced. Yet you would willingly
encourage precisely that kind of application of state sponsored
morality when it comes to behaviors you personally oppose. That's
called hypocrisy, not humor.
In Michigan there is a law on the books that makes it a
misdemeanor punishable by up to 12 months in jail to swear in the
presence of a woman or child. Presumably you would have no objection
to being sent to jail for a year for posting some of the messages you
have posted in this newsgroup (i.e., your responses to the 9 inch
penis spam), since there are known to be women reading this group and
those messages clearly contained material that violates that law.
Or do laws only apply to others, not yourself?
>Fortunately not everyone lives in the USA, where you've
>given up your constitutional rights to free speech to gain
>a little temporary security. What did one of your great
>statesmen, Benjamin Franklin, have to say about those
>who would trade essential liberties for a little temporary
>security? Maybe you should look that up. No, wait.
>Maybe you should FUCKING look that up. Yeah, that's
>better.
Interesting.
I have a Constitutional right to _say_ "fuck," in public, but
should go to jail if I actually do it. What kind of twisted logic
leads you to that conclusion?
Incidentally, I just broke the law in Michigan by typing that
word in a forum where I have reasonable expectations a woman will read
it. Presumably you will now report me for a crime--or would that
violate your personal value system, since you feel it is acceptable to
use the word?
You're right--not everyone lives in the USA. But the clubs
being discussed in this thread _are_ in the USA, and therefore subject
to US law. In other nations, different laws apply--including laws that
have a different take on public sexual expression.
Rick Adams
<nob...@mixmaster.it> :
>Not if you are a true nudist. These swingers may take off their
>clothes, but they aren't nudists. They'll say that they are, Nikki
>Craft will say that they are, but in fact they are just perverts
>having sex in public.
Oh good grief. Another "true nudist" speaks!
What on earth makes your views of what is "right" and "wrong"
binding on the rest of us?
While the behavior of swingers or those who enjoy public sex
(not necessarily the same people, btw) may not be to your taste--or to
mine for that matter, that does not make them "perverts," any more
than a preference for any other aspect of consensual sexual expression
does. There is nothing inherently perverted about the behavior, it is
simply a violation of current social taboos in a limited part of the
world (there are areas where it is perfectly acceptable).
>Nudists know what damage filth like this poses to our hobby.
Filth is in the eyes of the beholder. While I may not choose
to watch people having sex, that doesn't make it "filthy," Filth
implies dirt--and unless you are claiming that those who engage in
public sex tend not to bathe as often as other nudists, it's an
inappropriate (and loaded) choice of words.
>I have
>no problem with people who want to swing -- in the privacy of their
>own home or tent or whatever. But when they cross the line and have
>sex in public at a nudist camp I call the cops. The cops don't call
>them nudists either. They call them sex offenders.
They call nudists that too if they are caught on a public
beach, whether it is a nude beach or not. Your point being?
>Or to put it in terms they'll understand: "Arrest them all and let John
>Ashcroft sort it out".
Sort of like arrest them and let Hitler decide what to do with
them, isn't it?
>Fortunately there are still clubs in the USA that know the difference
>between naturism and swinging. They do their best to keep the
>perverts out. It's those clubs I take my family to.
I thought you said you weren't in the USA. Make up your mind.
Rick Adams
<nob...@mixmaster.it> :
>That's bullshit. There's nothing filthy about sex. But there are
>filthy people who have sex in public to try to shock others.
That IS disgusting!
You have every right to complain about that.
Make them bathe first.
>Horse shit. They were trying to get something started. When they were
>unable to get the regulars to "swing" they decide to try a shock and awe
>campaign. Well, it backfired. Or maybe they just get off in causing a
>scene. Either way, it was very much tied to them being swingers.
You mean like being closed-minded is tied to being a
Christian?
I disagree.
Swingers are no more or less likely to engage in public sex
than anyone else. That the specific couple involved were swingers is
no more proof that this is a "swinger related" behavior than is the
murder of an abortion doctor proof that Christians are homicidal
fanatics.
>They were either clueless at how to behave as nudists or they were
>trying to shock the nudists.
That doesn't mean all swingers are that way. It means one
specific couple is.
Guess what? I've seen couples do the same thing in NYC (in
Central Park) and in San Francisco (in Golden Gate Park), as well as
on public beaches. And in every case I've personally observed, the
couple arrived together and left together making no attempt to involve
others in their behavior (e.g., they weren't swingers). I guess that
makes public sex something that NON-swingers do instead of swinging,
right?
>There is no defending what these swingers did, no matter how you
>spin this.
There may be no defending what that couple did--but the
assumption that they did so because it is a swinger behavior is
totally unjustified by anything you have posted about the event
itself.
>"Nudists" who get caught having sex in public aren't nudists at
>that camp for very long. In fact, they aren't nudists but if
>arrested and convicted they are sex offenders.
So are people who are arrested at nude beaches for "public
indecency."
Your point being?
>Sure there is. Visit the TNS web site and learn something about being
>a nudist.
We don't have to get our information from a web site, we
experience nudism in the real world instead. It's a lot more fun that
way.
>It's more than just taking off your clothes and running around naked.
No, actually it isn't. Being nude in a social setting and
having fun is EXACTLY what nudism is all about to most of us. Sorry if
your mileage varies.
>For starters, nudists don't have sex in public. I hate to break it to
>you sweetheart, but you're not a nudist. You're just a pervert.
One thing I can say about you George--you picked the right
user name.
Talk about "Big Brother" watching us . . .
Did it ever occur to you that instead of others being
perverts, you may just be a prude?
Silly thought. Of course it didn't. Your mind is far to made
up to allow us to confuse you with the facts.
Rick Adams
<cphil...@nottampabay.rr.com> :
>What would make you think I am a pervert? And what is your definition of
>pervert?
That's a silly question, cyndiann. Someone who doesn't share
his specific values and beliefs, obviously.
E R
Aha!
You aren't calling yourself stuffed tiger just to avoid calling yourself
something like sucked-dry tiger, are you?
:-)
E R
one up to lable folks with permanently, make the others feel virtuous,
and have a pretext to get all of us a little more used to having groups
of folks deprived of their liberties. Maybe my suspicions are too dark,
but I wonder.
It is apples and oranges to call the man and two women I saw caressing
each other before a mostly willing audience at Hippy Hollow years ago by
the same lable as a serial rapist.
A general parallel:
One thing I think I have noticed in the newspapers in the
letters-to-the-editor section is folks making claims about morality
without citing their source of authority so it can be accepted or
rejected; then if no one notices and challenges their assertions, they
and their position have gained in power and moved toward being a sort of
priesthood of a new ethic or at least closer to having their ethic
accepted without evaluation.
E R
I doubt many of them read this group
and
Alekhine isn't around anymore to throw kings at you.
E R
There is/was a group calling itself "Twisted Sister".
E R
One minor comment.
I think that spoken it is called slander,
but that written it is called libel.
E R
obscene, for that matter, should imply an external source for the
standard by which such conduct is condemned. Please, tell us what the
source of *your* standard in *this* context is.
I don't rule out there being such a source. I think atheists do, btw.
Also, I think that you have something turned around. Sexual
unfaithfulness in secret is much worse than sexual faithfulness before
the entire world at once, even agreeing for the sake of argument that
sex in public is wrong in itself.
A Jewish carpenter said, "The body is more than raiment."
But what do carpenters know?
E R
Behold!
A new chant!
"Thus saith
T N S "
:-)
..
:-(
Uh, oh now my acquaintances in the CP might be upset with me for giving
someone another chant.
El Dorado Hot Springs
That's for sure. They aren't even partial nudists; they're just sad sexpreds
who haven't yet realized that the things they think are pleasing them will
hurt them somehow.
The converse is also true: true nudists can never be swingers.
Bill
El Dorado Hot Springs
Just remember, only a True Nudist know what a true nudist is.
Cheef
> Oh good grief. Another "true nudist" speaks!
It's official...
The average user of rec.nude no longer has any use for true nudists.
S/he is hostile toward what true nudists value, how true nudists act, and
what true nudists have to say.
[Just to be clear, I don't agree with everything "George Orwell" says, nor
with some of the ways he expresses himself.]