-O- Vegetariansim/Veganism: It fascinates me

mo...@imap3.asu.edu

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Jun 13, 2002, 9:51:31 PM6/13/02

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The idea of vegetarianism/veganism has fascinated me for sometime and
I don't exactly know why. Perhaps because it seems that food takes on this
exotic new meaning and the supposed underlying discipline that goes along with
being a vegetarian is intriguing as well.

So, for all you vegetarians and vegans (and non-vegetarians, if want
to respond as well)...a few questions regarding the lifestyle...

sidenote= when I say vegetarianism, I'm also including veganism. I know
they're different, however. :)

1. How long have you been a vegetarian?

2. Why did you choose to become a vegetarian? (raised that way, specific life
experience swayed you, etc.)

3. Was it difficult at first?

4. Has the idea of eating meat or other foods with animal products in them
ever tempted you? Does it happen often?

5. Do you have a preference for vegetarian foods in a certain ethnic
background? (i.e Eastern Indian.)

6. What are some of your favorite vegetarian dishes you've discovered in all
your years of being vegetarian and how did you come upon them?

7. Have you discovered any negative repercussions wrt vegetarianism?

8. Are there any specific benefits that people might not know or think of?

Thanks! I love you big. :)

moppy

shelly

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Jun 14, 2002, 2:13:48 AM6/14/02

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On Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:51:31 -0700, <mo...@imap3.asu.edu>
wrote:

>1. How long have you been a vegetarian?

10 years

>2. Why did you choose to become a vegetarian? (raised that way, specific life
>experience swayed you, etc.)

i stopped eating red meat about 15 years ago (it was trendy,
dontcha know? <G>). after awhile i also cut out poultry. i
never much liked seafood, so *that* was easy to cut out.
now i'm nearly vegan. i'm lactose intolerant, so i rarely
eat milk products. i *do* eat honey, though, and the
occasional small amount of cheese or sour cream. i imagine
that i'll probably end up cutting those out, too.

>3. Was it difficult at first?

nope!

>4. Has the idea of eating meat or other foods with animal products in them
>ever tempted you? Does it happen often?

no. the only thing that's frustrating is that i have to be
*really* careful about reading labels. Altoids, frosted Pop
Tarts, Frosted Mini-Wheats, marshmallows, most Brachs
candies, Necco Wafers, etc. all have gelatin in them, so i
can't eat them. waaah! i also have to be *really* careful
at restaurants. often the wait staff has *no* idea what
dishes have meat products in them.

>5. Do you have a preference for vegetarian foods in a certain ethnic
>background? (i.e Eastern Indian.)

i don't really have a preference. i don't eat out much. at
home i usually make pretty basic food (nothing spicy or
fancy). occasionally i'll make Indian food because my mom
used to cook for an Ayurvedic restaurant. i fell in love
with some of the recipes, so i make them occasionally.

>6. What are some of your favorite vegetarian dishes you've discovered in all
>your years of being vegetarian and how did you come upon them?

hmmm. i make a *killer* vegetarian chili. it's nice and
hearty for cold weather. i've also learned, from my mom,
how to toast spices so that they taste better. toasted
black mustard seeds are *great* in lots of things (salads,
stir fry, rice, soups...).

>7. Have you discovered any negative repercussions wrt vegetarianism?

not really. i live in a *very* vegetarian and vegan
friendly area, so i've been lucky.

or do you mean health-wise? i think that it's just as easy
to have bad eating habits regardless of whether you're a
vegetarian or an omnivore. i've got a friend who lives on
pbj and cheese pizza. :( *that's* certainly not healthy!
as long as you eat a variety of foods and plenty of fresh
foods, there shouldn't be any negative health problems from
not eating meat or meat products.

>8. Are there any specific benefits that people might not know or think of?

well, i never have to wonder if there are chicken beaks in
my hot dogs <G>!

<rant>
i've noticed that many people consider themselves vegetarian
even though they eat poultry or fish. even good friends of
mine are surprised that i won't eat fish and poultry. it's
not nice of me, but i mentally roll my eyes whenever one of
my "vegetarian" friends orders shrimp or chicken at a
restaurant. i'm not a militant vegetarian by *any* means,
but i think it's dishonest to say you're something that you
aren't. when i was still eating chicken and fish, i told
people that i didn't eat red meat, not that i was
vegetarian.
</rant>

--
shelly

Elin Sjølie

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Jun 14, 2002, 7:25:55 AM6/14/02

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I'm not a vegetarian, but I can only eat a little chicken and
seafood when it comes to meat. No, not even turkey.

Blinded by darkness, <mo...@imap3.asu.edu> scribbled:

>1. How long have you been a vegetarian?

I stopped eating "regular" meat completely a bit over six years ago,
after I had found out I got rid of a lot of health issues that way.

>2. Why did you choose to become a vegetarian? (raised that way, specific life
>experience swayed you, etc.)

Health issues, as I mentioned above.

>3. Was it difficult at first?

Not at all.

>4. Has the idea of eating meat ever tempted you? Does it happen often?

No... I know that it makes me ill, so that is never a problem.
Besides, I never was very fond of "regular" meat.

>5. Do you have a preference for vegetarian foods in a certain ethnic
>background? (i.e Eastern Indian.)

Indian or thai. Yum.

>6. What are some of your favorite vegetarian dishes you've discovered in all
>your years of being vegetarian and how did you come upon them?

Palak Paneer, that I first had in an Indian restaurant here in Oslo.
Pizza. Well... It's pizza.
Veggia lasagne.

There's lots of good stuff out there.

>7. Have you discovered any negative repercussions wrt vegetarianism?

No.

>8. Are there any specific benefits that people might not know or think of?

Depends on the person. ;)

Elin
--

http://home.no.net/lunacia/
http://lunacia.livejournal.com/
http://www.mp3.com/lunacia

Hihihi

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Jun 14, 2002, 8:10:49 AM6/14/02

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<mo...@imap3.asu.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.21.020613...@general2.asu.edu...
>
>
<snip>

>
>
> 1. How long have you been a vegetarian?

I don't know exactely, but it must be about 10 years.

>
>
> 2. Why did you choose to become a vegetarian? (raised that way, specific
life
> experience swayed you, etc.)

I have been sort of vegetarian as a kid, but that was more of a fancy thing.
When I was just getting to know different types of meat again, my brother
told me a scary story about pigs being transported from holland to italy in
bad conditions, being slaughtered in nasty ways, and then transported back
to holland as parma ham.
I was about 10 at the time.

Nowadays I disagree with the way many animals are being treated during life,
and it's for me easy to be a veggie.

>
>
> 3. Was it difficult at first?

No, I barely ate meat at the time anyway.

>
>
> 4. Has the idea of eating meat or other foods with animal products in
them
> ever tempted you? Does it happen often?

Not at all. I have tried eating fish for a while, because I was very active,
and I thought it might be good. I can only eat the stuff with a lot of
greasy sauce, so I cut back to tofoe.

>
>
> 5. Do you have a preference for vegetarian foods in a certain ethnic
> background? (i.e Eastern Indian.)

Not that I know of. I have a wonderful big veggie cook book, but it has
various things in it.

>
>
> 6. What are some of your favorite vegetarian dishes you've discovered in
all
> your years of being vegetarian and how did you come upon them?

Risotto, and other stuff with lots of veggies in it.
Usually I cook easy, rice or macaroni with verggies and tofoe is a favorite
daily dish.

>
>
> 7. Have you discovered any negative repercussions wrt vegetarianism?

A few times, but usually people accept it (more or less). It's no problem.

>
>
> 8. Are there any specific benefits that people might not know or think
of?

I was once told that you get aggressive from red meat, but I'm not sure if
that's true.

>
>
>
> Thanks! I love you big. :)

I love you back!

Higs,

Hihihi
--
send e-mail to Hih...@mail2blonde.com
(that is, if you want a reply)

curiousyellow

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Jun 14, 2002, 1:46:29 PM6/14/02

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Hihihi <Hih...@eurosport.com> wrote in message
news:aec8e9$ss4$1...@news.tue.nl...

<snip>

> > 8. Are there any specific benefits that people might not know or think
> of?
>
> I was once told that you get aggressive from red meat, but I'm not sure if
> that's true.

I've heard this one thrown around by the Bakti Yoga society on campus.

Firstly, I don't eat red meat, eat very little chicken, and eat mostly fish
and veggies. I'm a 'sort of pescatarian' which is to say, not a vegetarian
at all, but I can happily subside on veggies.

While there are many health benefits (in most people) to cutting out red
meat, I don't believe in the whole 'stop eating animals and the world would
be a better place' crap. I'd be happy if people didn't eat animals, and I
know about the horrors of commercial farming, but it's always good to keep
in mind that Hitler was a vegetarian ;).

This is true.

Paul

Alex Del Giudice

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Jun 14, 2002, 4:50:14 PM6/14/02

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On Thu, 13 Jun 2002 mo...@imap3.asu.edu wrote:
> 1. How long have you been a vegetarian?

2+ years

> 2. Why did you choose to become a vegetarian? (raised that way, specific life
> experience swayed you, etc.)

Well, unlike most other vegetarian/vegans out there (and I always get
crucified by them for saying this) I do it 95% for health reasons. I try
to cut all cholesterol out of my diet because most of my deceased family
members have died of aneurisms, heart disease, and other cholesterol
related problems. Also, the way that the meat is treated after the animal
is slaughtered and carved is almost as appalling as the way the animal was
treated pre-butchering. A hunk of steak, from the time it leaves the cow
to the time it arrives on your plate, probably has come into contact with
more disease ridden places and things than you would want to imagine. (My
grandmother was a butcher, you should hear some of her stories!)
I think saving animals is a bonus, but at the same time, I don't like to
be disheartened by the fact that even if after 3 years of vegetariansim I
save one cow and a couple of chickens, millions more will die.

> 3. Was it difficult at first?

I didn't have much trouble at all. I know veganism is really difficult
because some vegan friends of mine began to suffer from malnutrition
because of lack of zinc or iron ( I forget what it was exactly). You just
have to remember to eat the right types of vegetables, and suppliment your
diet with vitamins and minerals out of a bottle (if it is necessary).
Even though I said above that I do it for health reasons, I still try to
avoid all animal byproducts (I drink very little milk, eat only the eggs
in baked goods, and limit the cheese intake to low cholesteral kinds).
This can be difficult as gelatin is everywhere. I'm not incredibly
strict about this, but I do read lables whenever I can.

> 4. Has the idea of eating meat or other foods with animal products in them
> ever tempted you? Does it happen often?

Since I've made the switch, I've eaten meat only a handful of times. This
is because I come from an Italian family that has no idea how to cook
without inserting meat into everything (well that's not totally true, but
you get my point). When my grandmother makes me a "welcome home dinner"
and she accidentaly puts little bits of bacon in the peas because she
forgot, I don't want to make her feel bad so I eat it. But I'm never
really tempted to eat meat. There are so many other foods out there
that don't contain meat, you don't realize it until you force yourself to
look for them.

> 5. Do you have a preference for vegetarian foods in a certain ethnic
> background? (i.e Eastern Indian.)

I like mandarin chinese foods, but you have to be careful because some of
them look vegetarian but are very likely to have meat based broths or
other meat based ingredients

> 6. What are some of your favorite vegetarian dishes you've discovered in all
> your years of being vegetarian and how did you come upon them?

I absolutely love the crispy tofu from a restaurant near my apartment.
I've begged them to give me the recipie but they said they won't give it
to me until I graduate and never return (maybe they are afraid that I'll
stop coming once I can make that dish by myself).

Morning star veggie burgers are pretty good too.

> 7. Have you discovered any negative repercussions wrt vegetarianism?

Absolutely. the word vegetarian has a very specific connotation attached.
When someone who I've met recently first discovers that I don't eat meat
or byproducts, they get that "oh, you're one of those guys" attitude.
They're demeanor and our relationship doesn't usually change much if they
know me well enough, but most people begin to assume all sorts of messed
up reasons for why I might be a vegetarian. All of the sudden I become a
tree hugging planet lover, or I'm doing it for the chicks, or I'm not a
real man, the list goes on.
And then when they find out that I'm not 100% strict (such as described
above) I get even more shit from them! I've found out that I can't win.
So I never describe myself as a vegetarian anymore. I just say I don't
like to eat meat, that's all anyone really has to know.

When my friends go to mcDonalds, I order a water and wait to eat at home.
Just a little sacrifice to live a few years longer.

> 8. Are there any specific benefits that people might not know or think of?

When I used to work out and play sports, my underarms and feet would begin
to smell minutes after I broke a sweat. Since eliminating meat from my
diet, BO resulting from those sweat inducing tasks has been eliminated
almost 100%.
If done right (absolutely no cheese pizza, I don't care if it has no
meat), being a vegetarian might not be the most succesful way to
lose weight, but it can help keep weight off once you've lost it
(preferably by exercising)
Being a vegetarian also taught me more about cooking.

Alex

Hihihi

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Jun 14, 2002, 5:19:44 PM6/14/02

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"Alex Del Giudice" <delg...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.31.020614...@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu...
<snip>

>
> I didn't have much trouble at all. I know veganism is really difficult
> because some vegan friends of mine began to suffer from malnutrition
> because of lack of zinc or iron ( I forget what it was exactly).

Probably iron, since that's the thing both veggies and women tend to lack. I
used to think I had an iron deficiency, but they couldn't find anything in
my blood.

Tiara Girl

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Jun 15, 2002, 1:00:24 AM6/15/02

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<mo...@imap3.asu.edu> said something like this in
news:Pine.GSO.4.21.020613...@general2.asu.edu:

> 1. How long have you been a vegetarian?

8 years I think.

> 2. Why did you choose to become a vegetarian? (raised that way,
> specific life experience swayed you, etc.)

I realized I couldn't eat animals anymore. It bothered me.

> 3. Was it difficult at first?

No.

> 4. Has the idea of eating meat or other foods with animal products in
> them ever tempted you? Does it happen often?

Yes. About 5 years ago I ate some squid. "It's just squid. It doesn't
matter. I can eat what I want." Then I felt miserable - not physically,
emotionally. I could never eat meat again.

But I do miss chicken wings. Yes, I do. But I can't eat them. I eat veggie
ones from Kate's Joint in NYC instead.

> 5. Do you have a preference for vegetarian foods in a certain ethnic
> background? (i.e Eastern Indian.)

I like Asian Vegan a lot but don't particularly prefer it.

> 6. What are some of your favorite vegetarian dishes you've discovered
> in all your years of being vegetarian and how did you come upon them?

Basically I discovered that tofu is my friend. That's all.

> 7. Have you discovered any negative repercussions wrt vegetarianism?

Stupid people. People who say "But you eat chicken right?" People who say
"But you eat fish right?" People who say "I'm a vegetarian" and then order
the salmon.

Nothing else.

> 8. Are there any specific benefits that people might not know or
> think of?

I'm definitely healthier. But I also eat wayyy more ice cream than I
should.

mt

The Stein family

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Jun 15, 2002, 3:55:10 AM6/15/02

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shelly <scou...@indiana.edu> wrote in message
news:esiiguck1l9augn37...@4ax.com...

<rant>
right on. it annoys me too when people do that. i know a girl who likes to
make her food as weird as she possibly can...just to get some attention,
says she's vegan and still eats things like honey and gelatin. *grr*
</rant>

~urbangeisha*
trying not to be hypocritical.

The Stein family

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Jun 15, 2002, 3:56:41 AM6/15/02

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what do you mean by 'regular' meat?
~urbangeisha*

Elin Sjølie <lun...@online.no.invalid> wrote in message
news:3d099793...@news.online.no...

The Stein family

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Jun 15, 2002, 4:17:50 AM6/15/02

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<mo...@imap3.asu.edu> wrote in message
<snip>

>
>
> 1. How long have you been a vegetarian?

close to eight years, then i became severely anaemic and my hair started to
fall out (i'm 17 mind you - this has nothing to do with age...just getting
in first :0P) and i started to faint, so i ended up eating a bit of meat
occasionally. However, this really didn't work for me. i mean i stopped
being anaemic, but i felt hideous emotionally and digestively after eating
it.

> 2. Why did you choose to become a vegetarian? (raised that way, specific
life
> experience swayed you, etc.)

this is not really what most people expect to hear but i made myself sick on
sausages when i was two years old and i haven't eaten red meat since.
when i was 10 i decided i didn't want to eat animals. I had lots of friends
from veggie backgrounds so this made it easier.

> 3. Was it difficult at first?

Not really. Challenging though, i didn't really live in a vegetarian
friendly zone
And my parents weren't too happy about it, they were used to meat & 3 veg.
Now i am happy to say they are far more adventurous with their cooking. :)

> 4. Has the idea of eating meat or other foods with animal products in
them
> ever tempted you? Does it happen often?

It's not really something i want to do. Actually dairy doesn't agree with me
either and it's not very conducive to singing either...i don't eat dairy for
3 days before a gig. Trying to make this happen all the time

> 5. Do you have a preference for vegetarian foods in a certain ethnic
> background? (i.e Eastern Indian.)

No, not really. Actually, i do like indian food and middle eastern stuff.

> 6. What are some of your favorite vegetarian dishes you've discovered in
all
> your years of being vegetarian and how did you come upon them?

My aunt gave me the recipe for this thing called "savoury bean pot" a couple
of years ago. It's amazing...kidney beans, grated carrot and apple and lots
of spices, over rice. I cooked it for my drama class during a rehearsal once
and they all loved it.

But it's pretty easy to find veggie stuff for me, byron is full of
vegetarians and vegans, and they all open restaurants!

> 7. Have you discovered any negative repercussions wrt vegetarianism?

Severe lack of iron when you don't compensate properly.
School canteen = no vegetarian food. Oh well...3 months to go.

> 8. Are there any specific benefits that people might not know or think
of?

i feel much lighter (not very descriptive, but i feel 'heavy' when i eat
meat and dairy) when i'm eating veggie. i ate vegan for a week when i stayed
with friends and i felt amazing. clean on the inside.

~urbangeisha*

Hihihi

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Jun 15, 2002, 8:52:55 AM6/15/02

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"curiousyellow" <pau...@mweb.co.za> wrote in message
news:3d09f...@news1.mweb.co.za...

Interesting fact.
Anyway, I agree with you that the world isn't getting better by me being a
vegetarian, but that doesn't mean I should do something I don't agree with.
It's prolly just useless idealism, but hey. (hell, if I were a true
meat-lover, I prolly wouldn't be a veggie after all).

Ken Tough

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Jun 15, 2002, 8:11:17 AM6/15/02

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Tiara Girl <antig...@aol.comnospam> wrote:

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Jun 15, 2002, 1:28:03 PM6/15/02

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curiousyellow <pau...@mweb.co.za> wrote:

>I should be clearer. I do think that vegetarianism is an improvement in the
>sense of resource allocation (easier and cheaper and more environmentally
>sustainable to produce 100 kg of grain than 1 kg of meat) and it's
>definitely a healthier way of life, what with the antibiotics that American
>farmers pump into their beef and the cannibal chickens that you find in
>Europe.

True enough

>I'd be happy eating just 'vegetarian' + fish, because fish are
>relatively untainted by battery farming.

Ick [so to speak], not always the case! Especially in the case
of european farmed salmon, the fish are not only developing new
and stronger diseases, they're transferring those to the wild
species. As well, all fish aren't "designed" for the close
confines of farming. [Tilapia are particularly well suited].
So fish farmers must use tons of antibiotics and other drugs
to try and keep those at bay. Combined with the concentrated waste
output [which results in vastly increased nutrients and so polluting
of the natural watercourses] it means fish battery farming is
becoming less and less tenable. That's especially the case for
things like prawn farming, which has had huge environmental impact
on coastal resources in places like Thailand. So while I'm with
you, and would like to take farmed fish over any other meat, I must
say salmon doesn't tempt the palate as much anymore.

>I just don't think that a global switch to vegetables will have a direct
>impact on levels of violence and bloodlust. The point of the Bakti Yoga
>acolytes is that meat-eating inspires bloodlust, cheapens the value of life,
>desensitises us to killing, and thus by extension leads to increased
>violence in society. I am insulted by people who place animal rights on the
>same level as human rights, that's all, or try to blur the line between
>society's attitudes to the deaths of animals and society's attitudes to the
>murders of humans.

The value of life and sensitization to killing might even be better
served by everyone raising & chopping their own goats & chickens,
and getting a full appreciation of what has really "gone into the pot".
It's can be easy to forget we too, are products of the same soil.
--
Ken Tough

fastrada

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Jun 15, 2002, 6:14:33 PM6/15/02

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mo...@imap3.asu.edu wrote:
>

>
> 1. How long have you been a vegetarian?

almost 12 years.

>
> 2. Why did you choose to become a vegetarian? (raised that way, specific life
> experience swayed you, etc.)

'cause my roommate was doing it. :) ok, that's overly simplistic. my
roommate, though, was very environmental and very health-conscious and
in talking with her, i realized that i agreed with her that i didn't
think it was ethical to eat animals when we don't need to in order to
survive, and that the health benefits might be worth the deprivation. so
i thought i'd give it a try and see how it felt, and it felt
right to me. i had been sick a lot during school, and pretty soon after
i stopped eating meat, my health took a major turn for the better. so
that was enough to convince me to stick with it.

>
> 3. Was it difficult at first?

not really -- i was in college and the meat in the dining hall was so
disgusting, i wouldn't have wanted to eat it regardless! back then i
also was a really compulsive dieter and very into self-denial, so i
didn't ever really think of backsliding. it did help that my roommate
was doing the same thing and we kind of supported each other.

>
> 4. Has the idea of eating meat or other foods with animal products in them
> ever tempted you? Does it happen often?

i do sometimes have specific cravings. especially hot dogs -- to this
day, on the rare occasions when i crave meat, it's inevitably shit-meat
like hot dogs or something like that. i don't ever want something really
good like steak. every once in a while joe will
cook something that smells so fabulous that i'm tempted, but after this
many years i wouldn't consider going back to eating meat. however, i
still have not been able to kick my addiction to altoids, which aren't
vegetarian 'cause they have gelatin in them.

>
> 5. Do you have a preference for vegetarian foods in a certain ethnic
> background? (i.e Eastern Indian.)

lately i'm really into middle eastern -- hummus, tabbouleh, baba
ghanoush, etc. i also like ethiopian and thai.

>
> 6. What are some of your favorite vegetarian dishes you've discovered in all
> your years of being vegetarian and how did you come upon them?

i love pad thai. i have several versions of vegetarian chili that i like
a lot, including a recipe for "27-ingredient chili" that joe found
online somewhere. oh, and aimee's red beans and rice, which i really
need to make again soon.

>
> 7. Have you discovered any negative repercussions wrt vegetarianism?

yeah, ignorant people giving me a lot of crap about my eating habits, and
people i've dated who get pissed off that i won't go to a steakhouse. ;)
but those
things aren't really a big deal. you do have to be careful to get enough
iron, and calcium if you're vegan and don't do dairy.

>
> 8. Are there any specific benefits that people might not know or think of?

well, before i was living with joe and had to deal with meat being
cooked in my house, it was a lot easier to clean my kitchen when there
was no chance of meat grease being anywhere. :) i've also found that in
general it's cheaper to be vegetarian, but that all depends on where
you're shopping, too -- every time i leave whole foods i'm appalled at
how much i've spent. :)

i've also found it a lot easier to control my weight since i stopped
eating meat, but that is not necessarily automatic, especially if you
still eat eggs and dairy like i do. you still have to watch fat content
and such.

fastrada

--
thank you, awesome caffeine, for giving my meager life meaning. i can
now endure an otherwise banal and meaningless existence. -- too much
coffee man.

faeriecat

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Jun 15, 2002, 8:55:03 PM6/15/02

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<mo...@imap3.asu.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.21.020613...@general2.asu.edu...

> 1. How long have you been a vegetarian?

Since I was fourteen, with a few falls off the wagon. ;)
So, thirteen years. Wow.

> 2. Why did you choose to become a vegetarian? (raised that > way,
specific life experience swayed you, etc.)

I was never one for the meat. I'd eat it in dishes if my mom made
it, but in general it kinda grossed me out. I certainly was too
squeamish to prepare it. Freshman year of high school, an older guy I
was close friends with was vegetarian, and I guess it finally dawned
on me that I didn't have to consume flesh. So I stopped. The longer I
was vegetarian, the more reasons I found for being so... the treatment
of animals by the meat industry, the quality of meat offered by said
industry, the health benefits, even the perk of being "different" when
I was younger and that mattered.

> 3. Was it difficult at first?

Sometimes. My mother figured it was a phase and thought I'd grow
out of it, so she didn't really support me. And at fourteen, one does
need the support of ones' parents to at least make the choice easier.
I didn't really know much about veggie cuisine, or where to get such
food regularly. But I learned. Now I rarely think about the fact that
I don't eat meat. Only when confronted with no veggie choices in a
restaurant, really.

> 4. Has the idea of eating meat or other foods with animal
> products in them ever tempted you? Does it happen often?

Occasionally. When I was pregnant I wanted, and ate a few times,
tuna fish. Got sick. Eeeew. With the advent of meatless products on
the market like Morninstar Farms, I find that if I do have a craving,
I can indulge it without compromising my high morals. Heh. ;)

> 5. Do you have a preference for vegetarian foods in a certain
> ethnic background? (i.e Eastern Indian.)

I like Thai, but recently discovered that there's a lot of fish
sauce and oil in many of those dishes. So you have to ask for stuff
entirely meat-free.

> 6. What are some of your favorite vegetarian dishes you've
> discovered in all your years of being vegetarian and how did
> you come upon them?

I eat a lot of fake meat. We make meatless chilis and spaghetti
sauces, too, and do Chinese fairly regularly. I love Mongolian BBQ. I
also make a meatless shepard's pie sort of thang which is good. And
mac-n-cheese, let's not forget that. Most of this stuff I discovered
by experimenting.

> 7. Have you discovered any negative repercussions wrt
> vegetarianism?

Sometimes I have a hard time finding something good/interesting to
eat when I am out with meat-eaters, but other than that, no. I like
the conversation that it sparks, I like the way I feel being veggie.
It's mostly all good.

> 8. Are there any specific benefits that people might not know > or
think of?

Weight loss/general health improvement from less saturated fat.
Skin condition improvement. Whee!

Koren

Elin Sjølie

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Jun 16, 2002, 11:49:48 AM6/16/02

to

Blinded by darkness, "curiousyellow" <pau...@mweb.co.za> scribbled:

>I'd be happy eating just 'vegetarian' + fish, because fish are
>relatively untainted by battery farming.

Norway, which is where I come from, has a lot of export of fish that
comes from so called fish farms...

Elin Sjølie

unread,

Jun 16, 2002, 11:49:48 AM6/16/02

to

Blinded by darkness, Alex Del Giudice <delg...@students.uiuc.edu>
scribbled:

>Well, unlike most other vegetarian/vegans out there (and I always get
>crucified by them for saying this) I do it 95% for health reasons.

Funny. Most vegetarians I've met d it for health reasons...

unread,

Jun 17, 2002, 3:35:39 AM6/17/02

to

"faeriecat" <faer...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:BhcP8.51$Fv1....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

I'll grant that our ancestors might have valued their herds more because
livestock was dear and had to be cherished, but do you really think that
ranchers of days gone by respected the lives they took? Isn't it just as
likely that the act of killing & cleaning desensitized them?

My grandmother used to keep chickens. Rung their necks with her bare hands.
My grandfather was a fisherman, and some of my worst memories are of days
when he would haul in the crabs ('cause the fish were all dead before I saw
them). They both valued hard work and understood the value of a dollar, but
I really don't think my grandma had much respect for the chickens. And I
know my grandfather didn't respect the crabs. Outside of the cooking pot,
anyway.

Regarding that window into the slaughterhouse--well I, who merely watched
them--
I never would eat a crab, and I don't much care for chicken.

Angela

Ken Tough

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Jun 17, 2002, 7:23:23 AM6/17/02

to

Coises <rmta-s...@coises.com> wrote:

>What are... mammals?

reptiles? invertebrates? non-poultry birds, like say
wood pigeons, wild ducks/geese, songbirds? (I'll leave
the platypuses and echidnae to the aussie barbeques).

--
Ken Tough

Ken Tough

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Jun 17, 2002, 7:46:24 AM6/17/02

to

Angela <ang...@CUTITOUTrmta.org> wrote:

>"faeriecat" <faer...@earthlink.net> wrote
>> "Ken Tough" <k...@objectech.co.uk> wrote

>> > The value of life and sensitization to killing might even be better
>> > served by everyone raising & chopping their own goats &
>> > chickens, and getting a full appreciation of what has really

>> > "gone into the pot". It can be easy to forget we too, are

>> > products of the same soil.

>> Right on. I think this sums up my personal motivation to be
>> vegetarian very well. I've heard the saying "if slaughterhouses had
>> windows, we'd all be vegetarians" over and over again. If we had to
>> raise and kill our own meat, we might relearn some respect for the
>> life we just took. I'm not against simply eating meat... I'm against
>> eating it ignorantly.

In Montserrat, our friends the vets kept two sheep, and every
year had two lots of two or three lambs, and would faithfully
send them to the chop(s) every time. They loved animals like
no one else, but loved their meat too, and had worked out the
fine balance. I lean their way, but could cope more easily
with chickens than lamb, I think.

A muslim friend here from Senegal had to go recently to buy
his ram for sacrifice. The best thing [apparently] is to get
a big strong one with proper horns [since it has to lead you
over the narrow slippery path to heaven] then give away the
meat to people who need it.

Both seem like pretty cool approaches that put a lot more value
into the flesh than a bit of polystyrene and plastic wrap.

>I'll grant that our ancestors might have valued their herds more because
>livestock was dear and had to be cherished, but do you really think that
>ranchers of days gone by respected the lives they took? Isn't it just as
>likely that the act of killing & cleaning desensitized them?

Very likely. Slaughterhouses can have some of the most inhumane
people working in them [but quite likely the nature of the job
attracts those types or repels the others?] Though butchers
aren't always that way, and not all the fishermen I knew. It is
possible to be pragmatic & respectful at the same time. I suppose
it depends mostly on the person.

>My grandmother used to keep chickens. Rung their necks with her bare hands.
>My grandfather was a fisherman, and some of my worst memories are of days
>when he would haul in the crabs ('cause the fish were all dead before I saw
>them). They both valued hard work and understood the value of a dollar, but
>I really don't think my grandma had much respect for the chickens. And I
>know my grandfather didn't respect the crabs. Outside of the cooking pot,
>anyway.

But in the way that vegetables from your own garden taste better,
surely your own chicken has something inherently more satisfying
in it? I'm not so keen on fishing, but when I eat the ones I
catch I do tend to savour what that fish put into the pan too.
Dealing with the guts and the blood somehow, to me, makes me
more aware of our mortality and that we are inseparable from
our biology, no matter how much the gnostics hoped not.

>Regarding that window into the slaughterhouse--well I, who merely watched
>them--
>I never would eat a crab, and I don't much care for chicken.

On the other hand, the best crab I've ever had was one I won in
a pub from my friend in Cornwall who's a lawyer & crab fisherman,
and who steams 'em himself in the big pot in his kitchen. [Maybe
that's partially because "picking it" yourself means you can mix
the white & dark meat as you like, whereas pre-picked crab is
almost always just the white stringy stuff, which, like white-meat
chicken, loses something major without the dark soft counterpoint.
Hmmm... getting myself hungry here.

--
Ken Tough

Hihihi

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Jun 17, 2002, 8:18:16 AM6/17/02

to

"curiousyellow" <pau...@mweb.co.za> wrote in message

news:3d0b3...@news1.mweb.co.za...

That would be true, but I still think it's a very little drop out of an
overflowing ocean, if you understand. The fact that I don't eat meat,
doesn't change much for the animals. (Over here, farmers get subsidized per
animal, so it's sometimes better for them to make more animals than needed,
and just slaughter them).

About the fish. I used to think that too, but when catching fish, apparently
a lot of other animals are cought and die without being used. Rare ones
among them I've heard. So I decided not to eat fish either.

>
> I just don't think that a global switch to vegetables will have a direct
> impact on levels of violence and bloodlust. The point of the Bakti Yoga
> acolytes is that meat-eating inspires bloodlust, cheapens the value of
life,
> desensitises us to killing, and thus by extension leads to increased
> violence in society. I am insulted by people who place animal rights on
the
> same level as human rights, that's all, or try to blur the line between
> society's attitudes to the deaths of animals and society's attitudes to
the
> murders of humans.

That is stupid, I think. Whether or not red meat makes you more aggressive,
you still have the capability to control yourself. And I personally do not
think that red meat gets you so much more aggressive. (Hello, I'm quite
aggressive myself)

Hihihi

unread,

Jun 17, 2002, 8:23:06 AM6/17/02

to

"Ken Tough" <k...@objectech.co.uk> wrote in message
news:yATuChHj...@artslink.co.za...

> curiousyellow <pau...@mweb.co.za> wrote:
>
<snip>

>
> The value of life and sensitization to killing might even be better
> served by everyone raising & chopping their own goats & chickens,
> and getting a full appreciation of what has really "gone into the pot".
> It's can be easy to forget we too, are products of the same soil.

Actually, my brother suggested something like this when he was working in a
waste-meat factory or something. Basically, he said that all people should
slaughter an animal themselves, before being allowed to eat meat.

I don't mind when people cannot do that, but I do think everybody should
agree that meat is part of an animal. I was got talking about meat somehow
with a friend. I said it comes from animals (or it's animal or something),
and she freaked out. She was really upset I said that. To think I'm the
vegetarian there!

Alex Agranov

unread,

Jun 17, 2002, 9:06:01 AM6/17/02

to

E-gads, Just eat a cheeseburger...

<mo...@imap3.asu.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.21.020613...@general2.asu.edu...
>
>

> The idea of vegetarianism/veganism has fascinated me for sometime and
> I don't exactly know why. Perhaps because it seems that food takes on
this
> exotic new meaning and the supposed underlying discipline that goes along
with
> being a vegetarian is intriguing as well.
>
> So, for all you vegetarians and vegans (and non-vegetarians, if want
> to respond as well)...a few questions regarding the lifestyle...
>
> sidenote= when I say vegetarianism, I'm also including veganism. I know
> they're different, however. :)

>
>
> 1. How long have you been a vegetarian?
>
>

> 2. Why did you choose to become a vegetarian? (raised that way, specific
life
> experience swayed you, etc.)
>
>

> 3. Was it difficult at first?
>
>

> 4. Has the idea of eating meat or other foods with animal products in
them
> ever tempted you? Does it happen often?
>
>

> 5. Do you have a preference for vegetarian foods in a certain ethnic
> background? (i.e Eastern Indian.)
>
>

> 6. What are some of your favorite vegetarian dishes you've discovered in
all
> your years of being vegetarian and how did you come upon them?
>
>

> 7. Have you discovered any negative repercussions wrt vegetarianism?
>
>

> 8. Are there any specific benefits that people might not know or think
of?
>
>
>

Ken Tough

unread,

Jun 17, 2002, 8:35:15 AM6/17/02

to

LDV <ld.v...@VOID.verizon.net> wrote:

>Ken Tough wrote:
>> Squid are really gorgeous things... ever seen a school of them
>> swimming underwater? All shimmery and flashing like tiny neon
>> signs. Tasty though, when not cooked like an innertube. Octupus
>> is even more beautiful, and considerably more intelligent, and
>> not so populous, so I draw the line there...

>But, but... octopus is one of my favourite foods, though I have it
>fairly infrequently. I try to tell myself that the smaller ones are
>less intelligent. But truly, they are fascinating creatures.

I got an interesting mail from my vet/divemaster buddies in
carib. the other day with an article about octopuses. A snippet:

"The octopuses are the most intelligent invertebrate species
on earth. Their intelligence is said to be comparable to that
of a house cat. They exhibit many behaviors that we also find
in mammals, such as territoriality, aggression, fear, curiosity,
and problem solving. They have strong parental instincts.
The males usually die after having mated. The females lay
their eggs inside of her den. They guard and clean the eggs
for several months. The mother will not eat during this time
and she will die after all her children hatched. Out of several
thousand siblings only two or so will live long enough to
produce another generation. In most octopus species, the natural
life span is one year only."
web: http://www.seawolfdivingschool.com

Their camouflage is stunning: not just colour, they even change
texture (knobbly/smooth/wrinkly) to match the background, and
some can even ripple lines backwards on their body at the same
rate they move through weed, for perfect "stealth" invisibility.

>But you can't take the Argentine out of me; every now and then I just
>want to eat every last part of the cow. ;)

Speaking of the last part of the cow, isn't there some south
american dish made out of the anus?

Hmmm.
--
Ken Tough

Ken Tough

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Jun 17, 2002, 10:56:24 AM6/17/02

to

Hihihi <Hih...@eurosport.com> wrote:

>"Ken Tough" <k...@objectech.co.uk> wrote

>> The value of life and sensitization to killing might even be better
>> served by everyone raising & chopping their own goats & chickens,
>> and getting a full appreciation of what has really "gone into the pot".
>> It's can be easy to forget we too, are products of the same soil.

>I don't mind when people cannot do that, but I do think everybody should

>agree that meat is part of an animal. I was got talking about meat somehow
>with a friend. I said it comes from animals (or it's animal or something),
>and she freaked out. She was really upset I said that. To think I'm the
>vegetarian there!

Curiously, there are people who consider themselves to be vegetarian
leaning, and who won't eat stuff like roast chicken or steak but
will happily eat a burger. The fact that one looks more like 'flesh'
is the connetion there, I think. [Aside from craving, like bacon.]
As to killing your own, I don't mind killing fish and could cope
with chicken, but I probably only eat enough beef to have to plug
one every few years or so. Eventually the desire for steak would
get me there, but I'd probably apologise to the beast first. Lamb
I'll need to work on..

--
Ken Tough

Ken Tough

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Jun 17, 2002, 11:08:10 AM6/17/02

to

Hihihi <Hih...@eurosport.com> wrote:

>About the fish. I used to think that too, but when catching fish, apparently
>a lot of other animals are cought and die without being used. Rare ones
>among them I've heard. So I decided not to eat fish either.

Very true. It's known as "by-catch". It's one of the big reasons
why farmed fish can be a more responsible choice [except for the
bad farming practices I mentioned].

One the worst fish for by-catch are flat fish and prawns, apparently.
Each pound of trawled prawns can result in 15 pounds of by-catch that
just gets dumped. Trawled flat fish and scallops result in lots of
lower food-chain stuff [esp sand eels] getting scraped up, which is
a bit like burning fields of grain to slaughter cattle. [The fact
that Danes go searching for them to feed into power stations is
separate stupidity].

Anyway, if you want to feel better about sea-caught fish, you can
always go for the less popular things like mackerel. There are
moves now (at least in UK) to move to a "traceability path" from
fisherman to customer, where you can know that it has been caught
responsibly, especially by lines with hooks [not long-drift-lines
like the massive ones used to catch pacific tuna & turtles & dolphins].
When that comes about, I will certainly feel a lot better about
sea-caught fish.

Fishing is such an extremely critical issue right now, and is being
so widely ignored in face of "fuzzy" things like "global warming".
The technology has improved so much that factory trawlers can
home in on and vacuum up deep-water schools that otherwise would
have gone un-noticed. The irony is that this makes people think
there are still "plenty of fish in the sea" when in fact they are
simply getting better at finding the declining stocks. This exact
problem led to the virtual extinction of the Grand Banks cod, off
Newfoundland.

>That is stupid, I think. Whether or not red meat makes you more aggressive,
>you still have the capability to control yourself. And I personally do not
>think that red meat gets you so much more aggressive. (Hello, I'm quite
>aggressive myself)

And is eating it nearly raw worse than eating it cooked "to death"?

--
Ken Tough

Angela

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Jun 17, 2002, 12:57:25 PM6/17/02

to

"Hihihi" <Hih...@eurosport.com> wrote in message

news:aek69a$2vs$1...@news.tue.nl...
<snip>

>I do think everybody should
> agree that meat is part of an animal. I was got talking about meat somehow
> with a friend. I said it comes from animals (or it's animal or something),
> and she freaked out. She was really upset I said that. To think I'm the
> vegetarian there!

That's bizarre! Though, now I think of it, maybe not. I beleive it was in
Sir Walter Scott (Ivanhoe) that I first encountered the notion that western
nomenclature has two words for many animals--the word for the animal and the
word for the animal-as-meat.

Hence, it's a pig when it's oinking, and pork when it's on the plate.
It's a lamb when it's playing, and veal when it's smothered in cheese.

(Walter Scott posited this as a class thing, noting that the animal word was
of Saxon descent, the meat word French. He suggested it arose after the
Norman invasion, when the conquered people were more likely to tend the
livestock, the French more likely to consume. He's probably right.
Nevertheless, it might help people separate.)

Angela

faeriecat

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Jun 17, 2002, 6:06:19 PM6/17/02

to

"Angela" <ang...@CUTITOUTrmta.org> wrote in message
news:aejldq$2ahu$1...@concertina.rmta.org...

> I'll grant that our ancestors might have valued their herds more >
because livestock was dear and had to be cherished, but do
> you really think that ranchers of days gone by respected the
> lives they took? Isn't it just as likely that the act of killing &
> cleaning desensitized them?

Well, I think they *had* to be somewhat desensitized in order to
do what they had to do. A good thing, too... anyone too squicked to
kill their own livestock wouldn't last too long. But yes, I think they
had much more respect for said animals. They had to feed them, raise
them, care for them, and kill them. They had to put a lot more into
the process than someone who walks up to the counter at McD's and
orders a Big Mac, y'know?

And I'm talking respect like "this life is worth something", not
"I cannot take this life". There was more connection, thus inherently
more respect for what was there. That didn't make it more upsetting to
go out and kill your hog in the fall, just a bigger deal.

Koren

faeriecat

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Jun 17, 2002, 6:11:08 PM6/17/02

to

"Hihihi" <Hih...@eurosport.com> wrote in message

news:aek69a$2vs$1...@news.tue.nl...

> I don't mind when people cannot do that, but I do think
> everybody should agree that meat is part of an animal. I was
> got talking about meat somehow with a friend. I said it comes > from
animals (or it's animal or something), and she freaked
> out. She was really upset I said that. To think I'm the
> vegetarian there!

*laugh* Those who are too squeamish to even admit what they're
eating just crack me up. If it grossed you out to think of where it
came from, why are you eating it?

On a related note, ask most kindergarteners where meat comes from.
Their answer: "the grocery store". Very few of them realize that beef
is cow, or that pork is pig. Somehow that doesn't seem right.

Koren

ai...@rmta.org

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Jun 17, 2002, 11:35:55 PM6/17/02

to

Hihihi <Hih...@eurosport.com> wrote:
[snip]
> I was once told that you get aggressive from red meat, but I'm not sure if
> that's true.

i love red meat. that should confirm it for you. ;)

Aimee the Magdalene

////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
/ Age is just a number. Yeah, but that's just because \
/ Responsibility actually responsibility can afford to \
/ has some weight behind it. buy the donuts with filling. \
/ - Beth - Dances \
////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

ai...@rmta.org

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Jun 17, 2002, 11:54:43 PM6/17/02

to

faeriecat <faer...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> "LDV" <ld.v...@VOID.verizon.net> wrote:
>> I'm too dissolute and hedonistic to seriously become a
>> vegetarian.
> I'm veggie, and definitely one of the most hedonistic folks I
> know. We're not all sitting around chewing on carrots, y'know. ;)

ok, but you *do* know what he means. he's a hedonist who really loves
meat, as am i. whereas you've said elsewhere in this thread that you
never really felt excited about meat, except for the occasional mild
craving. and any meat craving that can be sated by morningstar farms is
*not* a serious craving.

personally, i always loved meat. even when i was a kid, it was the best
part of any meal, as good as dessert and sometimes better. i sometimes
have vegetarian food, and it can be very good, but usually it leaves me
feeling a bit empty. so for me, being a vegetarian would be really,
really hard. it's obviously not hard for you, because meat is not your
brand of hedonism.

Aimee the Magdalene (who has many brands of hedonism)

| the view that the metaphysician is to be reckoned among the poets |
| appears to rest on the assumption that both talk nonsense. but |
| this assumption is false. in the vast majority of cases the |
| sentences produced by poets do have literal meaning. |
| - A.J. Ayer |

clafount

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Jun 18, 2002, 1:55:54 AM6/18/02

to

ai...@rmta.org went ahead and said:

>Hihihi <Hih...@eurosport.com> wrote:
>[snip]
>> I was once told that you get aggressive from red meat, but I'm not sure if
>> that's true.
>
>i love red meat. that should confirm it for you. ;)
>

Dammit, I'm a red meat lover too, but I'm seriously questioning the
quality of red meat I've been eating. I've been reading horror stories
of the meat packing industry :(

My solution is not to become a vegetarian, a las, but by eating less
ground beef. I think I can steal feel good about steak. But ground
beef is starting to scare me.

Cheryl
(Whose first meat love is chicken)
--
Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time.
Steven Wright

clafount

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Jun 18, 2002, 1:58:41 AM6/18/02

to

clafount <lafo...@pilot.msu.edu> went ahead and said:

> ai...@rmta.org went ahead and said:
>
>>Hihihi <Hih...@eurosport.com> wrote:
>>[snip]
>>> I was once told that you get aggressive from red meat, but I'm not sure if
>>> that's true.
>>
>>i love red meat. that should confirm it for you. ;)
>>
>Dammit, I'm a red meat lover too, but I'm seriously questioning the
>quality of red meat I've been eating. I've been reading horror stories
>of the meat packing industry :(
>
>My solution is not to become a vegetarian, a las, but by eating less
>ground beef. I think I can steal feel good about steak. But ground
>beef is starting to scare me.

I'd like to apologize for the low-quality of this post *cringe*

Cheryl

Narnia

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Jun 18, 2002, 3:10:05 AM6/18/02

to

On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:57:25 -0400, Angela <ang...@CUTITOUTrmta.org> sang
with gusto in rec.music.tori-amos:

> Hence, it's a pig when it's oinking, and pork when it's on the plate.
> It's a lamb when it's playing, and veal when it's smothered in cheese.

When I was a little kid, I used to call lambs veals, because I
automatically associated the meat with the animal. I probably still would
if people wouldn't look at me like I'm insane; I don't understand why
there's a name for the animal and a name for the animal-as-meat on an
logical level, even if I understand it on an emotional level. I'd rather
say I'm eating pig and give homage to the fact that my meal was once a
living creature than sanitise it.

--
=Narnia=
http://www.velvet.net/
http://www.livejournal.com/~narnee/

faeriecat

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Jun 18, 2002, 4:03:17 AM6/18/02

to

"Narnia" <nar...@velvet.net> wrote in message
news:slrnagt94d...@crushed.velvet.net...

> I'd rather say I'm eating pig and give homage to the fact that
> my meal was once a living creature than sanitise it.

Right on! That is all.

Koren, who still has an email from Narnia to respond to...

Narnia

unread,

Jun 18, 2002, 4:43:07 AM6/18/02

to

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 04:03:17 GMT, faeriecat <faer...@earthlink.net> sang
with gusto in rec.music.tori-amos:

I said:
>> I'd rather say I'm eating pig and give homage to the fact that
>> my meal was once a living creature than sanitise it.
>
> Right on! That is all.

unread,

Jun 18, 2002, 12:36:06 PM6/18/02

to

Unfortunately, Coises <rmta-s...@coises.com> cannot be explained,
only experienced:

>[Mon, 17 Jun 2002 21:58:41 -0400] clafount:
>>>Dammit, I'm a red meat lover too, but I'm seriously questioning the
>>>quality of red meat I've been eating. I've been reading horror stories
>>>of the meat packing industry :(
>>>
>>>My solution is not to become a vegetarian, a las, but by eating less
>>>ground beef. I think I can steal feel good about steak. But ground
>>>beef is starting to scare me.
>
>First off... I don't know how you like your beef cooked. If your cook
>your meat to at least "medium-well" --- 165°F or more by instant-read meat
>thermometer --- you've almost surely killed anything that might be living
>in it. (Yes, you can use an instant-read meat thermometer in a hamburger.
>It looks funny, maybe, but I do it all the time. I like them 130-135°F.)

When I go to restaurants I always order my steak medium well, just to
be safe.

>Those of us who like our beef rare have more to worry about. My theory is:
> 1. It should be decent meat --- fuck the bargain of the week.
> 2. It should be fresh by date.
> 3. It shouldn't look odd (but some surface darkening is normal).
> 4. It shouldn't be slimy.
> 5. It shouldn't smell "strong."
>If it passes all the above with flying colors, I cook it rare; if I have
>any doubts (but not enough to throw it away), I use it in something
>where I can cook it well done, like tacos or spaghetti sauce (for ground
>meat), chili, whatever... that way the worst that will happen is that it
>won't taste as good as it could. (In practice, that never seems to happen;
>bad meat is bad meat, and you know it soon enough to throw it away.)

Good advice, all of that.

>I've been pretty happy with "Laura's Lean Beef" (which is available in some
>of the groceries here; see: <http://www.laurasleanbeef.com/>) for ground
>beef.

Oooh I'll have to look for that...

>Alternatively, you can try to find a butcher who will grind fresh sirloin
>(or round, if you prefer very lean but less flavorful) for you. It will
>cost a bit more, but it will taste really good, and (relatively speaking)
>you'll know where it's been.

Yeah, one of the points made in the book I've been reading is about
how the fast food industry and meat packing industry have all but
stamped out the local butcher shops. Time was you would know that you
had decent ground beef from the butcher.

Don't even get me started on fast food hamburgers. I don't think I'll
ever have one again. But I may try the veggie burger at Burger King
just to see if they got those flavor chemicals right.

>Similarly, I try to get eggs from free-range hens that have been fed
>no animal products or antibiotics. Chickens should not eat meat. I can't
>find "Empire" Kosher poultry here, but that was always my favorite source
>of chicken when I lived in Pittsburgh. (As I understand it, Kosher
>processing is tightly controlled and demands a certain level of care and
>quality, whether the religious aspect means anything to you or not.)

Oh, I'll have to look for that label too.

>>I'd like to apologize for the low-quality of this post *cringe*
>
>It's the meat.

LOL!

Cheryl

"Never send a human to do a machine's job."
-- Agent Smith

Angela

unread,

Jun 18, 2002, 1:29:30 PM6/18/02

to

"Coises" <rmta-s...@coises.com> wrote in message
news:bamtgu0ggfhmpo72a...@4ax.com...

> [Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:57:25 -0400] Angela:
> >It's a lamb when it's playing, and veal when it's smothered in cheese.
>
> This isn't terribly important to the sense of the thread... but lamb
> is lamb, on the hoof or on the plate. Calf (young cow) is veal.

Ooop. Duh. Right. :)
Lamb is lamb.
Sheep is mutton.

Angela

Michelle J. Haines

unread,

Jun 18, 2002, 3:26:05 PM6/18/02

to

In article <aekmbl$2v8c$1...@concertina.rmta.org>,
ang...@CUTITOUTrmta.org says...

>
> Hence, it's a pig when it's oinking, and pork when it's on the plate.
> It's a lamb when it's playing, and veal when it's smothered in cheese.

Veal is from baby cattle. Lamb is called lamb. Sheep is mutton.
Goat kid meat is cabrito. Mature goat meat has anther name, but I
can't remember it. Chevre is goat cheese.

Michelle
Flutist
--
But when the morning comes, And the sun begins to rise, I will lose
you
Because it's just a dream, When I open up my eyes, I will lose you
I used to believe in forever, But forever's too good to be true
I've hung a wish on every star, It hasn't done much good so far
I don't know what else to do, Except to try to dream of you
And wonder if you are dreaming too, Wherever you are
-- For Xander [9/22/98 - 2/23/99]

Ken Tough

unread,

Jun 18, 2002, 6:05:35 PM6/18/02

to

Apparently Coises <rmta-s...@coises.com> wrote:

>I don't know, though, why we have "veal chops" but "calf's liver."

cause otherwise it sounds like "via liver"

--
Ken Tough

unread,

Jun 18, 2002, 6:13:39 PM6/18/02

to

Coises <rmta-s...@coises.com> wrote:

>[Mon, 17 Jun 2002 21:58:41 -0400] clafount:
>>>Dammit, I'm a red meat lover too, but I'm seriously questioning the
>>>quality of red meat I've been eating. I've been reading horror stories
>>>of the meat packing industry :(
>>>
>>>My solution is not to become a vegetarian, a las, but by eating less
>>>ground beef. I think I can steal feel good about steak. But ground
>>>beef is starting to scare me.

>First off... I don't know how you like your beef cooked. If your cook
>your meat to at least "medium-well" --- 165°F or more by instant-read meat
>thermometer --- you've almost surely killed anything that might be living
>in it. (Yes, you can use an instant-read meat thermometer in a hamburger.
>It looks funny, maybe, but I do it all the time. I like them 130-135°F.)
>Those of us who like our beef rare have more to worry about. My theory is:
> 1. It should be decent meat --- fuck the bargain of the week.
> 2. It should be fresh by date.
> 3. It shouldn't look odd (but some surface darkening is normal).
> 4. It shouldn't be slimy.
> 5. It shouldn't smell "strong."
>If it passes all the above with flying colors, I cook it rare;

Problem is, that with ground beef surface bacteria (and they can
exist on the best/non-smelliest of beef) get ground into the insides.
The entire thing has the same characteristics as the surface.
Unless you cook the whole thing brown through (which it will be, once
it hits 70C), then the potential bacteria still lives. With a solid
chunk of beef, salmonella or e.coli is unlikely to have penetrated
beyond the surface, so a few millimetres of 80C is enough to do
the trick. With ground beef, you might as well eat the entire thing
raw (uncooked) if you eat the inside raw.

--
Ken Tough

clafount

unread,

Jun 18, 2002, 7:27:05 PM6/18/02

to

Unfortunately, Ken Tough <k...@objectech.co.uk> cannot be explained,
only experienced:

>clafount <lafo...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:

Exactly! I think I can fairly easily give up ground beef, too, since
it's not something I typically crave. I'm used to eating spaghetti
with ground beef in it, but I don't mind meatless marinara, either. I
suppose I'll miss it in chili, but there are vegetarian recipes out
there....hmmm.

Giving up the crunchy tacos at taco bell...that'll be the problem.

unread,

Jun 18, 2002, 8:36:34 PM6/18/02

to

"Narnia" <nar...@velvet.net> wrote in message

news:slrnagteir...@crushed.velvet.net...
> Thanks!

You are entirely welcome.

> Yes, you do! If you reply by tomorrow (Wednesday), I'll count > it
as a birthday present... :>

Good deal. I will make valiant attempts. I promise.

Koren, who's had more online time lately... hurrah!

faeriecat

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Jun 18, 2002, 8:39:31 PM6/18/02

to

"clafount" <lafo...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote in message
news:k92vgu4lcpom412s9...@4ax.com...

> I'm used to eating spaghetti with ground beef in it, but I don't
> mind meatless marinara, either. I suppose I'll miss it in chili,
> but there are vegetarian recipes out there....hmmm.

And there are quite a few good "ground meatless" products out
there too, or "crumble". They have nearly the same texture as ground
meat, especially when you mix them in sauce or chili, and you get that
same hearty effect. Much less fat, too.

Koren

faeriecat

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Jun 18, 2002, 8:45:56 PM6/18/02

to

"clafount" <lafo...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote in message

news:b3auguc342414bcvp...@4ax.com...

> But I may try the veggie burger at Burger King
> just to see if they got those flavor chemicals right.

They're okay. As far as veggie burgers go, rather boring. But they
do broaden my options when travelling, so yay.

Koren

shelly

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Jun 18, 2002, 8:53:18 PM6/18/02

to

"faeriecat" <faer...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:8_MP8.3208$uH2...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

the veggie burger part isn't too bad. they do a good job of getting it nice
and crispy (i *hate* mushy, pasty veggie burgers). you have to ask for
toppings though, or all you'll get is lettuce and mayo. the mayo they use
on it is gross. the flavor isn't bad, but the texture is somewhere between
library paste and sticky cream cheese. yuck.

--
shelly

Ken Tough

unread,

Jun 18, 2002, 9:03:34 PM6/18/02

to

Kristin E. Holland <khol...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> wrote:

>Ken Tough (k...@objectech.co.uk) wrote:
>: Hmmm.. Doesn't hold for lamb though, does it?
>Or chicken, or turkey. But it's interesting all the same, I think. Maybe
>it's because we get so many different kinds of things from cows and pigs?
>Chicken is pretty much just chicken, so maybe we don't need as many words
>for it?

Well, for turkey I think the case is that it's just so recent a thing
that the whole Norman invasion affect doesn't apply. [Swerving to
the side, turkey is so called because it was obviously a weird
bird from afar, and thought to be something from The East, and
Turkey seemed far enough away for the english. Not so for the
french, for whom d'Indie seemed a bit more likely, becoming
dindon. Clever, what?]

Anyway, as for the chicken it's a very old word but let's not
forget all those former words that have tended to go by the
wayside, like poussin (and poullain) and cock [coq-au-vin
and cock-a-leekie holding on] and pullet [with obvious roots],
and capon [cap-on being oddly metaphoric].

Speaking of which, odd that english tends to split its animals
[so to speak] according to gender and fertility. Hence we've
got stallions, mares, geldings and fillies, bulls, cows,
heifers and steers, cocks and hens and pullets and capons,
and on we go.

--
Ken Tough

Angela

unread,

Jun 18, 2002, 9:45:44 PM6/18/02

to

"Kristin E. Holland" <khol...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:aeo1p8$qb7$1...@netnews.upenn.edu...

> Ken Tough (k...@objectech.co.uk) wrote:
>
> : Hmmm.. Doesn't hold for lamb though, does it?
>
> Or chicken, or turkey. But it's interesting all the same, I think. Maybe
> it's because we get so many different kinds of things from cows and pigs?
> Chicken is pretty much just chicken, so maybe we don't need as many words
> for it?

Well, we have capon, but that's a specialized kind of chicken. Does come to
English via the French, I note.
Also, the word "fowl" makes few people hungry. :)
Poultry isn't much better.

Turkeys simply have the misfortune of entering western society way after the
French influence on the language was over. Pretty much over, anyway. :)

Angela

Alex Del Giudice

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Jun 18, 2002, 11:05:27 PM6/18/02

to

On Sun, 16 Jun 2002, Elin Sjølie wrote:

> Funny. Most vegetarians I've met d it for health reasons...
>
> Elin

I'd love to meet'em

Alex

Alex Del Giudice

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Jun 18, 2002, 11:15:25 PM6/18/02

to

On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Angela wrote:

> I'll grant that our ancestors might have valued their herds more because
> livestock was dear and had to be cherished, but do you really think that
> ranchers of days gone by respected the lives they took? Isn't it just as
> likely that the act of killing & cleaning desensitized them?

I second that. My grandmother's father (my great grandfather) was the
town butcher back in the old country, so many years ago. This
desensitized my grandmother to the death of animals as she was
slaughtering pigs at the age of 12. Of course, my grandmother tells me
that when they did slaughter, they attempted to do it in what they
believed to be the most humane way possible.

(according to my grandmother, that meant bludgeoning bulls with
sledgehammers and slicing pigs' jugulars. Maybe that's humane, I don't
know for sure.)

Alex

fastrada

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Jun 18, 2002, 11:37:59 PM6/18/02

to

i had a veggie burger at some fast food chain in ireland -- i can't
remember if it was a mcdonald's or a burger king. it was horrifying. it
was bright yellow and had lots of peas in it. i hate peas, and food
shouldn't be that color.

fastrada

--
thank you, awesome caffeine, for giving my meager life meaning. i can
now endure an otherwise banal and meaningless existence. -- too much
coffee man.

mo...@imap3.asu.edu

unread,

Jun 19, 2002, 7:35:36 AM6/19/02

to

On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, faeriecat wrote:

>
> "LDV" <ld.v...@VOID.verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:3D0B03EF...@VOID.verizon.net...
> > I'm too dissolute and hedonistic to seriously become a
> > vegetarian.
>
> I'm veggie, and definitely one of the most hedonistic folks I
> know. We're not all sitting around chewing on carrots, y'know. ;)
>
> Koren, who does like her pleasure with her food

Pleasure is good. :)

I'm not vegetarian because, quite frankly, I don't think I've "arrived'
yet. :) But I really like vegetarian foods, so that's pretty good. :)

moppy

Hihihi

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Jun 19, 2002, 12:36:13 PM6/19/02

to

"Ken Tough" <k...@objectech.co.uk> wrote in message
news:smKY1ZDa...@artslink.co.za...
> Hihihi <Hih...@eurosport.com> wrote:
>
> >About the fish. I used to think that too, but when catching fish,
apparently
> >a lot of other animals are cought and die without being used. Rare ones
> >among them I've heard. So I decided not to eat fish either.
>
> Very true. It's known as "by-catch". It's one of the big reasons
> why farmed fish can be a more responsible choice [except for the
> bad farming practices I mentioned].
>

Very true.

<snip>
>
> Anyway, if you want to feel better about sea-caught fish, you can
> always go for the less popular things like mackerel. There are
> moves now (at least in UK) to move to a "traceability path" from
> fisherman to customer, where you can know that it has been caught
> responsibly, especially by lines with hooks [not long-drift-lines
> like the massive ones used to catch pacific tuna & turtles & dolphins].
> When that comes about, I will certainly feel a lot better about
> sea-caught fish.
<snip>

That would be good indeed. For me personally, I don't like fish enough to
start looking at which kinds are good.

>
> And is eating it nearly raw worse than eating it cooked "to death"?

The fish? I refuse to eat them raw, it makes me puke. I used to eat them
baked/fried, which was acceptable. Still, I never really enjoyed the fish.

Higs,

Hihihi

--
send e-mail to Hih...@mail2blonde.com
(that is, if you want a reply)

Hihihi

unread,

Jun 19, 2002, 12:38:51 PM6/19/02

to

"Ken Tough" <k...@objectech.co.uk> wrote in message

news:iGqb9VDY...@artslink.co.za...
> Hihihi <Hih...@eurosport.com> wrote:
>
> >"Ken Tough" <k...@objectech.co.uk> wrote
> >> The value of life and sensitization to killing might even be better
> >> served by everyone raising & chopping their own goats & chickens,
> >> and getting a full appreciation of what has really "gone into the pot".
> >> It's can be easy to forget we too, are products of the same soil.
>
> >I don't mind when people cannot do that, but I do think everybody should
> >agree that meat is part of an animal. I was got talking about meat
somehow
> >with a friend. I said it comes from animals (or it's animal or
something),
> >and she freaked out. She was really upset I said that. To think I'm the
> >vegetarian there!
>
> Curiously, there are people who consider themselves to be vegetarian
> leaning, and who won't eat stuff like roast chicken or steak but
> will happily eat a burger. The fact that one looks more like 'flesh'
> is the connetion there, I think. [Aside from craving, like bacon.]

Interesting. When I was a kid, I was (at some point) a vegetarian except for
saucages etc. I didn't consider myself a true veggie though, and started
eating meat soon after. A little while later I cut meat out altogether.

Hihihi

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Jun 19, 2002, 1:22:43 PM6/19/02

to

"faeriecat" <faer...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:0DpP8.1200$uH2...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> "Hihihi" <Hih...@eurosport.com> wrote in message
> news:aek69a$2vs$1...@news.tue.nl...

> > I don't mind when people cannot do that, but I do think
> > everybody should agree that meat is part of an animal. I was
> > got talking about meat somehow with a friend. I said it comes > from
> animals (or it's animal or something), and she freaked
> > out. She was really upset I said that. To think I'm the
> > vegetarian there!
>

> *laugh* Those who are too squeamish to even admit what they're
> eating just crack me up. If it grossed you out to think of where it
> came from, why are you eating it?

That's what I was thinking exactely!

>
> On a related note, ask most kindergarteners where meat comes from.
> Their answer: "the grocery store". Very few of them realize that beef
> is cow, or that pork is pig. Somehow that doesn't seem right.
>

No, but at least they can throw it on their age. It's like the milk coming
from the factory, right? ;-)

Hihihi

unread,

Jun 19, 2002, 1:25:43 PM6/19/02

to

"Angela" <ang...@CUTITOUTrmta.org> wrote in message
news:aekmbl$2v8c$1...@concertina.rmta.org...
>
<snip>
>
> That's bizarre! Though, now I think of it, maybe not. I beleive it was
in
> Sir Walter Scott (Ivanhoe) that I first encountered the notion that
western
> nomenclature has two words for many animals--the word for the animal and
the
> word for the animal-as-meat.

But that is not much true in Holland. Pigmeat is called pigmeat, cowmeat is
called cowmeat. (except that the dutch word koe is female, and the meat-word
is for the genderless title). And so on. Of course, there are meats that are
not named after the animal, because the preparation is also important (I
think that's it).

Hihihi

unread,

Jun 19, 2002, 1:34:24 PM6/19/02

to

"clafount" <lafo...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote in message
news:b3auguc342414bcvp...@4ax.com...

<snip>

>
> Don't even get me started on fast food hamburgers. I don't think I'll

> ever have one again. But I may try the veggie burger at Burger King

> just to see if they got those flavor chemicals right.

They have veggie burgers at your Burger King? (they're usually earlier with
this stuff in America, right?) I was at a Burger King a week and a half ago,
and all they could give me was fries and a soda. Jummy dinner it was, and
very filling. :-(

Ken Tough

unread,

Jun 18, 2002, 9:08:18 PM6/18/02

to

faeriecat <faer...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> And there are quite a few good "ground meatless" products out
>there too, or "crumble". They have nearly the same texture as ground
>meat, especially when you mix them in sauce or chili, and you get that
>same hearty effect. Much less fat, too.

While ground beef has no attractive force on me at all,
ground fake beef is somewhat of a fish's bicycle. I expect
there is a good use for recycled paper in this area.

--
Ken Tough

Ken Tough

unread,

Jun 19, 2002, 2:16:47 PM6/19/02

to

Alex Del Giudice <delg...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:

>(according to my grandmother, that meant bludgeoning bulls with
>sledgehammers and slicing pigs' jugulars. Maybe that's humane, I don't
>know for sure.)

The sledgehammer idea is basically the way it's done everywhere.
(It's a spring-loaded or pneumatic bolt that gets driven into
the brain). As for the jugular, pigs/chickens etc tend to
be stunned by electricity first [doesn't always work], but it
is cutting the neck arteries that kills all slaughtered animals.
Personally, I can imagine that a small-scale butcher or home
slaughter is much more humane than a slaughter-house. Animals
know what's up, and whether you stun them or not it's worse
that a kind hand, in my opinion.

--
Ken Tough

Heather A Philp

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Jun 19, 2002, 5:48:04 PM6/19/02

to

Dude! It wasn't me! It was fastrada who wrote:
: i had a veggie burger at some fast food chain in ireland -- i can't

: remember if it was a mcdonald's or a burger king. it was horrifying. it
: was bright yellow and had lots of peas in it. i hate peas, and food
: shouldn't be that color.

Sounds like tumeric. Actually, it sounds like the filling from a
samosa. Could it have been some sort of Indian potato patty?

--heather

--
Heather Philp hap(at)haphazard(dot)org haphilp(at)pobox(dot)com
http://www.haphazard.org http://hap.livejournal.com

Kristin E. Holland

unread,

Jun 19, 2002, 6:06:05 PM6/19/02

to

Ken Tough (k...@objectech.co.uk) wrote:

: french, for whom d'Indie seemed a bit more likely, becoming
: dindon. Clever, what?]

Very. =)

(I nearly choked on my lunch the day my roommate shot down somebody she
was arguing with - all in fun - by declaring, "If it walks like a duck
and talks like a duck, it's a canard!")

: Anyway, as for the chicken it's a very old word but let's not

: forget all those former words that have tended to go by the
: wayside, like poussin (and poullain) and cock [coq-au-vin
: and cock-a-leekie holding on] and pullet [with obvious roots],
: and capon [cap-on being oddly metaphoric].

True, too true. I should have remembered cock-a-leekie, part Scot that I
am.

Kristin E. Holland

unread,

Jun 19, 2002, 6:07:26 PM6/19/02

to

Angela (ang...@CUTITOUTrmta.org) wrote:

: Also, the word "fowl" makes few people hungry. :)

: Poultry isn't much better.

Nope - in my head (which I realize is an odd, odd place), if it's poultry,
it's still walking around with the feathers on.

Ken Tough

unread,

Jun 19, 2002, 5:47:23 PM6/19/02

to

Hihihi <Hih...@eurosport.com> wrote:

>> And is eating it nearly raw worse than eating it cooked "to death"?

>The fish?

Sorry. I'm exuberent with my snipper these days. My concentration
span has got so bad I can't stand emails/posts longer than one page.

Anyway, I was talking about red meat... the more raw, the more rage
the eater, or so the wisdom goes. (Or at least more sanguine).
Personally, I think the wider the contrast between the cooked bit
and the uncooked bit, the better. You need decent extremely hot
cooking to caramelise and carbonize for flavour. But you need
raw for good tasty bloody juice. Key for that is an extremely
hot oven, coals, or a very very heavy pan..

>I refuse to eat them raw, it makes me puke. I used to eat them
>baked/fried, which was acceptable. Still, I never really enjoyed the fish.

Ahhh. I'm with Damian, I expect, and love the raw stuff if
it's got some nice flavour and texture. But nothing beats
a perfectly grilled fish with head and eyes stuck on it,
and with no bloody sauce anywhere..
--
Ken Tough

ai...@rmta.org

unread,

Jun 19, 2002, 10:12:12 PM6/19/02

to

Ken Tough <k...@objectech.co.uk> wrote:
> Hihihi <Hih...@eurosport.com> wrote:
[snips]

>>I refuse to eat them raw, it makes me puke. I used to eat them
>>baked/fried, which was acceptable. Still, I never really enjoyed the fish.
> Ahhh. I'm with Damian, I expect, and love the raw stuff if
> it's got some nice flavour and texture.

i'm less excited about fish fish. i never get stuff like mackerel or
yellowtail when i have sushi - tuna and salmon are the exceptions. my
sushi favourite is eel, which is actually usually cooked. but i like a
grilled or broiled fish-steak, and very rarely a fried fillet. if i go to
a seafood place and get a platter, i leave the fish fillet and chow down
on the shrimp, crab, clam, etc.

Aimee the Magdalene

* losing your faith is a lot like losing your virginity *
* you don't realize how irritating it was 'til it's gone *
* - AEL *
* and when they say 'take of his body' *
* i think i'll take from mine instead - Tori Amos *
* once i could see...now i am blind - Trent Reznor *

Michelle J. Haines

unread,

Jun 20, 2002, 12:55:29 AM6/20/02

to

In article <IgIxUdNP...@artslink.co.za>, k...@objectech.co.uk
says...

>
> The sledgehammer idea is basically the way it's done everywhere.
> (It's a spring-loaded or pneumatic bolt that gets driven into
> the brain). As for the jugular, pigs/chickens etc tend to
> be stunned by electricity first [doesn't always work], but it
> is cutting the neck arteries that kills all slaughtered animals.
> Personally, I can imagine that a small-scale butcher or home
> slaughter is much more humane than a slaughter-house. Animals
> know what's up, and whether you stun them or not it's worse
> that a kind hand, in my opinion.

The method recommended by a lot of our small farming books for hogs
and larger animals is a small caliber bullet to the head, generally.
Well, I'm not sure about cattle, actually, because I haven't read
that section.

Michelle
Flutist
--
But when the morning comes, And the sun begins to rise, I will lose
you
Because it's just a dream, When I open up my eyes, I will lose you
I used to believe in forever, But forever's too good to be true
I've hung a wish on every star, It hasn't done much good so far
I don't know what else to do, Except to try to dream of you
And wonder if you are dreaming too, Wherever you are
-- For Xander [9/22/98 - 2/23/99]

JoYfu...@webtv.net

unread,

Jun 20, 2002, 3:52:31 AM6/20/02

to

I know i'm way late responding to this, but i was on vacation in the
Windy City this past week...you've asked about one of my passions, and i
can't pas up the chance to toss in my 2 cents! :)

>1. How long have you been a
>vegetarian?

This time around, it's been 3, almost 4 years.
I was also a vegetarian back in high school for about 3-4 years as well.

>2. Why did you choose to become a
>vegetarian? (raised that way, specific life
>experience swayed you, etc.)

So many things.
First- eating dead mammals (i say mammals because i still eat seafood,
and you die-hard carnivores out there can go ahead with the flames...i
know it's somewhat hypocritical...it's just how i am. deal.) just
nauseates me, even the idea is yukky.
Second- animal rights. The way livestock is treated is completely
unacceptable and inhumane. I don't want to contribute to that industry.
Third- health reasons. Meat and dead, rotting things just aren't good
for your body. Sure you can get some good things from them, but there is
more bad than good most of the time.
Fourth- PETA. They were the final deciding factor. I had already given
up most red meat by this time, but when I randomly received a mailing
from them one day, I sat down to read it, and it literally changed my
life.
There are more, but these are the major reasons.

>3. Was it difficult at first?

Strangely, not at all. It always felt natural to not eat it.

>4. Has the idea of eating meat or other
>foods with animal products in them ever
>tempted you? Does it happen often?

Occasionally, but when it does happen, i figure it's my body trying
to tell me i need something that i'm not getting from
veggies/grains/etc. So, i usually give in to that on the rare occasions
when it does happen. On said occasions, i usually only take a small bite
of whichever food is tempting me.
In the nearly 4 years i've been veg. i can remember each time i've
eaten meat. That's how rare it is. :)

>5. Do you have a preference for
>vegetarian foods in a certain ethnic
>background? (i.e Eastern Indian.)

I love middle-eastern foods! yum! I'm a big fan of most asian cooking
as well.
I just love food! Oooh and a good veg. burrito is fantastic! (the best
ones are at Chipotle's!)

>6. What are some of your favorite
>vegetarian dishes you've discovered in
>all your years of being vegetarian and
>how did you come upon them?

Well- most, if not all of them were discovered while i was working at
a natural/organic foods store. I learned a lot working there. :)
Some favourite dishes hmm:
Grilled tofu with 3-pepper blast sauce! yummmmm!!!
Nothing quite beats a huge pot of vege chili. umm...Seriously, anything
made with soy is usually wonderful. The second best ice cream i have
ever eaten is made from soy; the tastiest yogurt, cheese, hot dogs, Boca
and Garden burgers...
Miso soup...it's all good stuff!

>7. Have you discovered any negative
>repercussions wrt vegetarianism?

Not being able to eat a full meal at many restaurants. For whatever
reason, most places have decided to either not include us at all or give
us extremely slim pickins'.
Not feeling 100% all the time because i don't eat properly, and always
forget to take my vitamins. Multi-vitamins and extra calcium are a must
for vegetarians.
The only other negative thing is people always asking me, "what the
hell -do- you eat???" My mom is convinced that i'm always hungry, even
though if she looked at me she'd see that i'm far from it.

>8. Are there any specific benefits that
>people might not know or think of?

Being a vegetarian is a much healthier, environmentally sound
lifestyle.
There aren't many nutrients in dead, rotting things. Why eat them?
Not to mention the lack of saturated fats and cholesterol in veggies!
Last time checked, there wasn't any. :D
My biggest weakness is cheese, and i am slowly trying to give that up as
well.
I don't drink dairy nor do i eat dairy yogurt and i rarely eat ice cream
(i have a weak spot for Ben & Jerry's:(
Dairy is terrible for our bodies after infancy. The dairy industry
will have us believe otherwise though. The amount of calcium you get
from drinking milk can be as easily gotten from vegetables and
supplements. No other animals consume their mothers' milk after infancy,
much less the milk of another animal.
Why do we???
You can get your daily recommended dose of vitamin D from 15 minutes in
the sunlight.
There is so much fat and other foulness in commercial dairy products,
we're much better without it. If you want to learn more, check out PETA.
They can be a bit dramatic at times, but their underlying message and
goal is ideal. :)
There are also a bunch of other places you could check out, but it is
late and i am tired and don't have the energy to list them now.
Perhaps later...

>Thanks! I love you big. :)

aww...thanx! i didn't know you cared.

karin
vegetarian and still fat...how?

clafount

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Jun 20, 2002, 4:20:27 AM6/20/02

to

ai...@rmta.org went ahead and said:

>i'm less excited about fish fish. i never get stuff like mackerel or
>yellowtail when i have sushi - tuna and salmon are the exceptions. my
>sushi favourite is eel, which is actually usually cooked. but i like a
>grilled or broiled fish-steak, and very rarely a fried fillet. if i go to
>a seafood place and get a platter, i leave the fish fillet and chow down
>on the shrimp, crab, clam, etc.

I find that I usually like shellfish and lots of kinds of whitefish,
and grilled salmon. I only recently started ordering fish in
restaurants, and the only reason I started was 'cause I was trying to
eat healthier.

But now I have a real taste for it. I have a grilled salmon recipe
that I absolutely adore, and I really love stuff like stuffed
whitefish. Yum.

But I think my favorite seafood of all is crab legs. I enjoy the
entire process of cracking open the legs and picking meat out with my
fingers. Feels very primitive and satisfying for me.

While I think I could probably talk myself into giving up beef and
pork, I woul have a hard time giving up chicken, and I could never
give up seafood. Ain't no way.

Cheryl

--
Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time.
Steven Wright

Ken Tough

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Jun 20, 2002, 5:58:43 AM6/20/02

to

Michelle J. Haines <mha...@io.nanc.com> wrote:

>k...@objectech.co.uk says...
>> The sledgehammer idea is basically the way it's done everywhere.
>> (It's a spring-loaded or pneumatic bolt that gets driven into
>> the brain). As for the jugular, pigs/chickens etc tend to
>> be stunned by electricity first [doesn't always work], but it
>> is cutting the neck arteries that kills all slaughtered animals.
>> Personally, I can imagine that a small-scale butcher or home
>> slaughter is much more humane than a slaughter-house. Animals
>> know what's up, and whether you stun them or not it's worse
>> that a kind hand, in my opinion.

[Hell, I need to proofread. I'm getting so sloppy.. I meant:

>> than a kind hand, in my opinion.

>The method recommended by a lot of our small farming books for hogs
>and larger animals is a small caliber bullet to the head, generally.
>Well, I'm not sure about cattle, actually, because I haven't read
>that section.

The bolt gives much the same function as a (larger caliber)
bullet without as much danger to the operator and materials
expense in a factory/industrial setting. Small caliber bullet
would probably have too much risk of not doing anything to cattle.

One problem in these BSE days--many hold it exists in US too,
just by different names and it's [practically] not tested for--
is that the bolt by its nature drives spinal/brain material
into the bloodsteam. Most of that winds up in the lungs and thus
goes into the biohazard waste with the "Specified Bovine Offal".
There is, in theory, the potential for it going into the muscle
meat since the circulation continues for some time.

--
Ken Tough

The Stein family

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Jun 20, 2002, 7:49:29 AM6/20/02

to

Elin Sjølie <lun...@online.no.invalid> wrote in message
news:3d0bb5a8...@news.online.no...
> Blinded by darkness, "The Stein family" <kie...@caldera.com>
> scribbled:
>
> >what do you mean by 'regular' meat?
>
> Meat that aren't seafood and poltry. It should have been clear from
> me writing "I can't eat any meat but...". As I said, I'm not a
> vegetarian.
>
> Elin

=) okay then i get you now.
~urbangeisha*

The Stein family

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Jun 20, 2002, 7:52:07 AM6/20/02

to

Ken Tough <k...@objectech.co.uk> wrote in message

news:wb$eEeGTe...@artslink.co.za...

> Apparently The Stein family <kie...@caldera.com> wrote:
>
> >> 1. How long have you been a vegetarian?
> >

> >close to eight years, then i became severely anaemic and my hair started
to
> >fall out (i'm 17 mind you - this has nothing to do with age...just
getting
> >in first :0P) and i started to faint, so i ended up eating a bit of meat
> >occasionally. However, this really didn't work for me. i mean i stopped
> >being anaemic, but i felt hideous emotionally and digestively after
eating
> >it.
>
> Do you eat a lot of dark green things, and lentils & chickpeas?
> If you don't like stuff like spinach & greens, try it with a
> some balsamic vinegar..helps free up bound iron, esp if you
> have plenty of calcium with it too..
> --
> Ken Tough

thanks. i might try that. yep eat a fair amount of chickpeas. i've gone back
to absolutely no meat now...so i'm seeing how that goes. and i'll be eating
lots of greens...=)

~urbangeisha*

Ken Tough

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Jun 20, 2002, 10:19:56 AM6/20/02

to

JoYfu...@webtv.net wrote:

>Third- health reasons. Meat and dead, rotting things just aren't good
>for your body.

Everything you eat is dead and rotting. (Except those
sprouting potatoes, but the solanine in those is even more
deadly than that piece of slowly decomposing steak..)

>Sure you can get some good things from them, but there is
>more bad than good most of the time.

Amazing that people survive at all, eh! Well, yes saturated
fat is a killer, and (to be honest) you're right. Food does
in the end kill most people. (aside from cigarettes. but I'm
assuming you're a non-smoker)

I'm not criticising you, by the way. Well done on having
convictions and sticking to them.

>>4. Has the idea of eating meat or other
>>foods with animal products in them ever
>>tempted you? Does it happen often?
>
> Occasionally, but when it does happen, i figure it's my body trying
>to tell me i need something that i'm not getting from
>veggies/grains/etc. So, i usually give in to that on the rare occasions
>when it does happen. On said occasions, i usually only take a small bite
>of whichever food is tempting me.

Maybe you should seek out the kind of veg food that could give
you what you [think you] need, rather than denying yourself
enough of what you feel like you need? Given the standard
eating habits of people from non-veg backgrounds, it takes
some effort/ingenuity to construct a good diet, not one of all
cheesey pasta and nutloaf. [though I'm not suggesting that's
the case for you] Just that the critical lentil was so
seldom seen in namerica...

>>8. Are there any specific benefits that
>>people might not know or think of?
>
> Being a vegetarian is a much healthier, environmentally sound
>lifestyle.
>There aren't many nutrients in dead, rotting things. Why eat them?

No, actually there are plenty! Plenty Plenty! All those
fat-based vitamins like A and E don't break down at all, hence
the ability of Inuit to survive on nothing but truly rotting
meat that's been buried in its skin for 4 months [bacteria
and blubber help with the vitamin C problem]; B12 is only produced
by animal or bacteria and doesn't degrade; tons of minerals
like iron and zinc and magnesium that are much more efficiently
sourced from meat than vegetables. Then there's all those amino
acids, which don't degrade with rotting (until you've got soup), one
of which is tricky to find in sufficient quantity outside of dairy.

No, there's nothing inherently wrong with dead things. The
rotting bit comes into play when the bacteria meets a non-iron
gut, but it can be overcome. There is plenty of good reason
to eat dead, rotting things.

>My biggest weakness is cheese, and i am slowly trying to give that up as
>well.

Cheese is rotting, by the way, at an alarming rate!

[And the best stuff is well-rotted]

>I don't drink dairy nor do i eat dairy yogurt and i rarely eat ice cream
>(i have a weak spot for Ben & Jerry's:(
> Dairy is terrible for our bodies after infancy. The dairy industry
>will have us believe otherwise though. The amount of calcium you get
>from drinking milk can be as easily gotten from vegetables and
>supplements. No other animals consume their mothers' milk after infancy,
>much less the milk of another animal.
>Why do we???

Because it tastes nice, basically. Yoghurt is a gift from the
gods, in my opinion. [behind cheese, which is gold, whereas
yoghurt is the "black gold"]. If anyone doesn't stir plain
yoghurt into their mashed potatoes, they have no clue what
they are missing. It is truly fantastic stuff.

Dairy is important for two things, for vegetarians:

Vitamin B12, which is only formed by bacteria, and usually
in another animal's gut, and the amino acid methionine,
which is limiting in most combinations of grains/pulses and
other vegetable proteins.

Diary is an excellent way of seeing that requirement is met.

On old thread on this is around here:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=eAhgrPAa1sezEwmP%40dial.pipex.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=19970517065901.CAA08664%40ladder02.news.aol.com

It is true (IMO) that milk is not necessarily a good thing,
and the fresh milk industry is a big waste aside from the
fact that tea is bollocks without it, and that you can't make
cheese and yoghurt without milk. Cow's milk presented to
infants is dangerous in generating immune reaction, and
where does the cutoff come when it's no longer a problem?

Dairy's not great because of the saturated fat, but aside
from that, how exactly do you feel the protein in it differs
so vastly from the protein in soya? More complex, yes, but
they are all built from the same amino acids in the end.

Take the fat out and it's every bit as good a nutritional
source as anything else. Why don't animals drink other
animal's milk, or any milk, after infancy? Well, truth
is they jump at the chance but they just don't get the
chance very often. Nature doesn't like creatures wasting
their energy feeding other perfectly capable creatures.

>You can get your daily recommended dose of vitamin D from 15 minutes in
>the sunlight.

True, though in Canada in the winter, it is possible that you
will not get any direct sunlight.

--
Ken Tough If we were meant to be vegetarian,
then why are we made of meat? (joke)

Heather A Philp

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Jun 20, 2002, 4:23:03 PM6/20/02

to

Dude! It wasn't me! It was JoYfu...@webtv.net who wrote:
: Some favourite dishes hmm:
<snip>
: Miso soup...it's all good stuff!

Is miso soup really vegetarian? Most recipes I've seen have bonito
flakes in them, and bonito is fish. I'm sure it can be vegetarian, but
I'm not sure if it usually is or is not in most japanese restaurants.

(Of course, bonito wouldn't be a problem for you, since you eat fish,
but I'm just curious.)

Heather A Philp

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Jun 20, 2002, 5:35:53 PM6/20/02

to

Dude! It wasn't me! It was ai...@rmta.org who wrote:
: i'm less excited about fish fish. i never get stuff like mackerel or

: yellowtail when i have sushi - tuna and salmon are the exceptions. my
: sushi favourite is eel, which is actually usually cooked.

That's my favorite, too. I think Brian's biggest problem with it is the
texture, because he doesn't mind the flavor if it's in a roll with other
things. We like yellowtail, though -- it's Brian's favorite.

: but i like a

: grilled or broiled fish-steak, and very rarely a fried fillet. if i go to
: a seafood place and get a platter, i leave the fish fillet and chow down
: on the shrimp, crab, clam, etc.

I usually pass on the fried fish too, when those are available, but I
don't mind it. I'll eat fish most ways they're cooked, actually. Now,
Brian's mom made fish stew once (at his request) and that, I didn't like
very much. It has hard boiled eggs in it. Strange.

CarbonatedBabe!

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Jun 21, 2002, 1:47:24 AM6/21/02

to

<mo...@imap3.asu.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.GSO.4.21.020619...@general2.asu.edu>...

And how does one "arrive?" Just curious.

Camille!

CarbonatedBabe!

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Jun 21, 2002, 2:18:18 AM6/21/02

to

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Jun 21, 2002, 8:28:37 PM6/21/02

to

Angela said:

>It's a lamb when it's playing, and veal
>when it's smothered in cheese.

so are lambs considered veal as well? i always thought veal was just
starved, immobile, then slaughtered baby cows.

karin
hmmm...

JoYfu...@webtv.net

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Jun 21, 2002, 8:34:12 PM6/21/02

to

Koren says:

>On a related note, ask most
>kindergarteners where meat comes from.
>Their answer: "the grocery store". Very
>few of them realize that beef is cow, or
>that pork is pig. Somehow that doesn't
>seem right.

I remember when i first found out that eggs come from chickens, and
that they were basically little, unhatched baby chickens. i was pretty
young, and didn't eat aggs again for quite some time.
these days, i'll eat them, but very rarely. once every few months or so,
if that.
it isn't right that people don't always tell their children where
their foods come from. i plan on telling mine as soon as they can speak
full sentences, then let them decide whether they want to eat meat or
not.

karin

JoYfu...@webtv.net

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Jun 21, 2002, 8:38:53 PM6/21/02

to

michelle mentioned:

>Chevre is goat cheese

and chevre is damn tasty too.
yumm....
like i said, cheese is my weakness, especially chevre and brie.
*drool*

karin
cheeseaholic

shelly

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Jun 21, 2002, 9:01:21 PM6/21/02

to

<JoYfu...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:992-3D1...@storefull-2173.public.lawson.webtv.net...

> Angela said:
>
> >It's a lamb when it's playing, and veal
> >when it's smothered in cheese.
>
> so are lambs considered veal as well?

nope, veal = baby cow. lamb-meat comes from young sheep and mutton comes
from old sheep.

> i always thought veal was just
> starved, immobile, then slaughtered baby cows.

yep. IOW cow-inna-box. they're generally fed milk to keep the meat nice
and tender and sweet. i've never had it, so i don't know how it compares to
grown-up-dead-cow, but the meat is definitely paler and fine-grained.

--
shelly