PIGLET BREAST FEEDING----??!?!?! WHA THE FUC???!!?!?
Moby
picture in the insert and WHAT THE FUCK SHE WAS THINKING when she put it
in there. In my opinion it is pretty sickening and dumb. But seriously,
I am wondering if anyone can give me some insight onto what this is
supposed to mean and all, cause I have no clue.
Bryson Meunier
> The pig picture is not stupid, The whole
>album has a strange sense of irony and sadness, like "Mama it wasn't my
>bullet" or "Selling his baby, just like my Daddy" and other lines like
>that. I think what Tori has made is wonderful because it does tiptoe the
>edge.
Rick Cowgill
ironic. Tori thought she was going to be holding a baby to her breasts
instead Eric has left her and the best she can do is a pig. The whole
bullet" or "Selling his baby, just like my Daddy" and other lines like
that. I think what Tori has made is wonderful because it does tiptoe the
edge.
**************************************************
## Just having thoughts of Marianne - Tori Amos ##
**************************************************
Daniel Bradshaw
> The pig picture is not stupid, it is actually incredibaly sad and
>ironic. Tori thought she was going to be holding a baby to her breasts
>instead Eric has left her and the best she can do is a pig. The whole
>album has a strange sense of irony and sadness, like "Mama it wasn't my
>bullet" or "Selling his baby, just like my Daddy" and other lines like
>that. I think what Tori has made is wonderful because it does tiptoe the
>edge.
Interesting concept, but did Eric leave her? I thought it was a mutual
break-up sort of thing.
Maybe I'm not going deep enough, but I tend to think that the picture is in
there simply because it looks interesting. I don't really think there's
much room to read a deeper meaning here.
--
Dan Bradshaw, Boy for Pele drea...@camelot.bradley.edu
I think that if Abraham Lincoln were alive today, he wouldn't be President,
or even a Senator. He'd be too busy frantically clawing at the inside of
his coffin, gasping for air.
brian keron
actually, i'll just quote my friend. "lucky pig."
Hideous Chicken-Lord
opt...@wolfe.net (Rick Cowgill) wrote:
> The pig picture is not stupid, it is actually incredibaly sad and
>ironic. Tori thought she was going to be holding a baby to her breasts
>instead Eric has left her and the best she can do is a pig. The whole
>album has a strange sense of irony and sadness, like "Mama it wasn't my
>bullet" or "Selling his baby, just like my Daddy" and other lines like
>that. I think what Tori has made is wonderful because it does tiptoe the
>edge.
That would make a little more sense, consider I read in a couple of places
where she was considering motherhood. Of course, after coming here and
hearing from all you up-to-date type people, I don't rely on my printed info
anymore.
But between you and me, I wish I were that piglet. ;)
Michael Preston Rees
Hideous Chicken-Lord
"When chickens get a taste of your meat, when he sucks you deep,
sometimes you're nothing but meat."
Tori Amos - "Blood Roses"
Eternally confused
: Maybe I'm not going deep enough, but I tend to think that the picture is in
: there simply because it looks interesting. I don't really think there's
: much room to read a deeper meaning here.
Sorry, but I can't agree. There's just too much in the
picture that can be played with. (No, I'm not talking about Tori!)
The show of maternal affection and the role of pig as meat or symbol
of men or sacrifice, especially to a Hawaiian goddess, make me think
that she's fattening the pig for slaughter. However, she obviously
cares for the pig dearly, as shown by her action of suckling the
pig instead of feeding it by other means. In addition, she enjoys the
position of superiority by being directly responsible for the pig's
nourishment as well as the power to sacrifice that pig when it's grown
up.
If I can think of this and I can't write poetry the way Tori
writes it, then I'm sure that what I'm thinking is obvious to an
artist like Tori. No, I'm not just deifying her, though I can do
that, too. :) However, I've learned the hard way through
embarrassing conversations that most good artists are miles beyond the
average Jack and Jill in terms of their normal levels of thought and
abstraction and thoughtfulness.
Thought-tossingly,
Hyoun
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coming soon from a DQ near you... | hyoun park '98
Something new, something different, | hjp...@amherst.edu
Something that nature never intended! | http://www.amherst.edu/~hjpark
All the sugar and twice the caffeine! |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew David Simchik
[snip]
> As I said before, I think this is where I think Tori's power as an
>artist lies. In her music, she uses elements from her classical training
>at the Peabody Conservatory to contrast with her often fucked-up lyrics.
[snip]
"Fucked-up lyrics"?
Drewcifer
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew D. Simchik: as0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (that's DREWCIFER to you!)
http://www.cif.rochester.edu/users/schnopia/drew.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
william elefante
>
> The pig picture is not stupid, it is actually incredibaly sad and
>ironic. Tori thought she was going to be holding a baby to her
breasts
>instead Eric has left her and the best she can do is a pig.
ahhh.....huh??????
'Rian Hilla
I love Tori partly because she is a serious NUT. Only she would allow a
piglet to suckle her... :-) Its that same wierd outlook that allows her
to write songs like she does.
U56...@uicvm.uic.edu
>>album has a strange sense of irony and sadness, like "Mama it wasn't my
>>bullet" or "Selling his baby, just like my Daddy" and other lines like
>>that. I think what Tori has made is wonderful because it does tiptoe the
>>edge.
>
>break-up sort of thing.
>
I don't know. Listening to the album it didn't sound like it was mutual.
or otherwise there's a bit of remorse.
well i was driving back from rolling stones music shop all happy with
my BfP. i was looking at the the booklet when i came across the
pig on her tit picture. thank god i stopped at the time.
Oh the schock
Oh the Horror of it all!!
but then i looked at it again when i got home. her face has such a serenity
to it, with a touch of sadness. it didn't look so tasteless then.
maybe she was influenced by the movie "Babe, the Pig."
it needed a mama.
Hey Jupiter is absolutely brilliant. I like Mr. Zebra too. She says
"Mr. Zeb-a-ra" .....CUTE!
no pictures of Volcanoes. what's the deal!!!
Mia
George Cifrancis
: > The pig picture is not stupid, it is actually incredibaly sad and
: >ironic. Tori thought she was going to be holding a baby to her
: breasts
: >instead Eric has left her and the best she can do is a pig.
: ahhh.....huh??????
Yeah really, like she can't find another guy??? Or she can't adopt???
Give me a fucking break. That picture is there for one purpose and that
is to be controversial. I didn't mind the picture that much, but I think
it is kinda silly.
--GC
Aimee Lortskell
[snip]
: But between you and me, I wish I were that piglet. ;)
I HAVE DIBS ON BEING THE PIGLET!!
just felt like yellin'. :)
Aimee the Whore
--
*--Toriphile---BAAWA!---NINnie--*
#############################################
* the blind have been blessed with security *
* - Trent Reznor *
#############################################
edmi...@freenet.vcu.edu
did, she wouldn't have put it in the book -OR- even had let it
be taken it in the first place. With an artist like Tori, you
just have to accept some things she does EVEN if you don't agree
with them. That's the way it works.
Eden
Stone Christopher
>I am wondering what other people on this group think of that stupid
>picture in the insert and WHAT THE FUCK SHE WAS THINKING when she put it
>in there. In my opinion it is pretty sickening and dumb. But seriously,
>I am wondering if anyone can give me some insight onto what this is
>supposed to mean and all, cause I have no clue.
>
It's not something to totally start a big mess about, though. <shrug>. People
will speculate and speculate about what it means.
Sickening? Uhh, if breastfeeding a pig is sickening to you, what are you doing
on Usenet?
---
cst...@envirolink.org 'chickens get a taste of your meat'
Andrew ORME
"I'm looking at the pig picture,
A small, pink, pig"
(;
Sorry, I just couldn't help thinking of Y Kant Tori Read, everytime someone
mentioned "The Pig Picture"
Andrew Orme
HTomren
figuratively and literally, I suppose, and that men have sucked the life
out of her, the passion, the creativity, etc.
Pierre Becquey
: Yeah really, like she can't find another guy??? Or she can't adopt???
Man, you weren't in line when they handed out sensitivity, were you?
Think maybe perhaps she was in LOVE with Eric, and wanted HIS child?
Perhaps you should remind yourself how HARD it is to just "find another
guy" who she would want to ahve a kid with. ANd adoption... it's just
not the same.
: Give me a fucking break. That picture is there for one purpose and that
: is to be controversial. I didn't mind the picture that much, but I think
: it is kinda silly.
No, you give ME a fucking break. On what authority do YOU decide what
was Tori's or Cindy Palamo's reason to use that photo? Let's have a
little more faith in artistical integrity and a little less accusatory
desensitified criticism. Scepticism is one thing, your allegations are
another.
=-Pierre...do you even LISTEN to the damn songs?
--
****Pierre Becquey********************************Pbec...@acs.ryerson.ca****
Forgive me father, for I have sinned... it's been my whole life since last
confession.... WHY START NOW? Father, you'd only be jealous of my sins.
-Courtney Lewin
Marfrog
writes:
>I heard on KROQ
You mean they actually mentioned Tori on KROQ? Have they started playing
the single yet? Because I have heard nothing except Cornfake Girl for
quite some time and it's getting really irritating.
Michelle
"breathe on little sister,
breathe on"
Aimee Lortskell
[snip]
: if breastfeeding a pig is sickening to you, what are you doing on Usenet?
this strikes me as great .sig material.
Aimee the Whore
--
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
:: maybe it's a part of me ::
:: you took it to a place i hoped it would never go ::
:: and maybe that fucked me up ::
:: much more than you'll ever know ::
:: - Trent Reznor ::
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
George Cifrancis
: George Cifrancis (g...@infinet.com) wrote:
: : Yeah really, like she can't find another guy??? Or she can't adopt???
: Man, you weren't in line when they handed out sensitivity, were you?
: Think maybe perhaps she was in LOVE with Eric, and wanted HIS child?
: Perhaps you should remind yourself how HARD it is to just "find another
: guy" who she would want to ahve a kid with. ANd adoption... it's just
: not the same.
: : Give me a fucking break. That picture is there for one purpose and that
: : is to be controversial. I didn't mind the picture that much, but I think
: : it is kinda silly.
: No, you give ME a fucking break. On what authority do YOU decide what
: was Tori's or Cindy Palamo's reason to use that photo? Let's have a
: little more faith in artistical integrity and a little less accusatory
: desensitified criticism. Scepticism is one thing, your allegations are
: another.
It is MY opinion and I am entitled to it. If you don't like it, tough shit.
--George C.
George Cifrancis
: =-Pierre...do you even LISTEN to the damn songs?
If I can stay awake.
--GC
Rantz Hoseley
Actually, since I called in and talked with Kevin and Bean during that
segment, it was K & B's INTERPETATION that THAT is what she meant.
I tried to refute their take on it, but they were too interested in being
comedic to listen to any view but their own, too the point of cutting me
off when I made the point "Well, I wouldn't expect you guys to get it,
after all, the single's been out for a month, and you're still playing
"Cornflake girl"
Fuckers
--
Rantz A Hoseley
http://www.primenet.com/~rantz
You smart ass college fuck
you think you are so tall
I was just like you
More pride than you can know
you think you pity me
hey
I'll kick your ass if you pity me
I won't give in
I'm not like that
-Everclear
Pierre Becquey
: It is MY opinion and I am entitled to it. If you don't like it, tough shit.
Okay, now that just doesn't hold water. We both know (at least I hope
so) that having an opinion does not mean that holder of said opinion is
right, or that said opinion needs be accepted as gospel because it is
believed by it's holder. That would be paradoxal, because then we would
both be right. Not to go on a huge rant, but it used to be popular
opinion that the earth was flat and was the center of the universe. And
there used to be an opinion among some high ranking people in Germany
that eradicating an entire race was morally acceptable. Need I say more?
Now, I'm not saying our disagreement needs be as drastic as my examples,
and I did come off as fairly aggressive. So, assuming you wish to
continue this civily, I'll rephrase my questions for you.
I'm not understanding how one can so easily discount the emotional value
of a relationship so deep that you want a child out of it. Tori
obviously suffered a great loss in Eric. (But you're not here, she sang,
her hand on her heart...). It's not that easy to just go out and get a
new guy and have that void filled. Or to want a child from that
relationship. As for adopting, it defeats the purpose of CREATING life.
Adoption can be an amazing thing onto itself, but in no way does it
compare to creating a life.
As for Tori's and Cindy Palermo's artistic integrity, I would like to
know what your reasoning is that could not have taken the picture with
some sort of artistic mind-set. Tori hardly needs to "shock" the world
anymore then she already does with her lyrics. That people are shocked
by the picture is one thing, that she MEANT something by it, to herself,
(which is what all her work is about, if you look at it), is another
entirely. That you claim for a fact that her intention was to shock
actually demeans her artistically, and I'd love to hear why you would say
that... something beyond "that's just what I think". Please, share your
thoughts... somewhere between you and I must be some sort of truth.
=-Pierre...feeling diplomatic... and rather weird about it.
Marfrog
ra...@primenet.com (Rantz Hoseley) writes:
>I tried to refute their take on it, but they were too interested in being
>comedic to listen to any view but their own, too the point of cutting me
>off when I made the point "Well, I wouldn't expect you guys to get it,
>after all, the single's been out for a month, and you're still playing
>"Cornflake girl"
>
>
Thank you Rantz! The whole thing irritates the hell out of me. It's about
time someone pointed it out to them.
Pierre Becquey
: Pierre Becquey (pbec...@acs.ryerson.ca) wrote:
: : =-Pierre...do you even LISTEN to the damn songs?
: If I can stay awake.
Okay, maybe I'm just waisting my time here, then... I didn't realise you
where a troll. Gave you too much credit, I guess.
=-Pierre...shoulda stuck with my first instinct and flamed the fucker.
Phil Burford
> As I lay dying, Daniel Bradshaw (drea...@camelot.bradley.edu) whispered:
>
> : Maybe I'm not going deep enough, but I tend to think that the picture is in
> : there simply because it looks interesting. I don't really think there's
> : much room to read a deeper meaning here.
>
Here, here!
> If I can think of this and I can't write poetry the way Tori
> writes it, then I'm sure that what I'm thinking is obvious to an
> artist like Tori. No, I'm not just deifying her, though I can do
> that, too. :) However, I've learned the hard way through
> embarrassing conversations that most good artists are miles beyond the
> average Jack and Jill in terms of their normal levels of thought and
> abstraction and thoughtfulness.
>
That's odd....most of the conversations I've had with 'artists' have
lead me to believe that they generally spout pretentious crap in
order to make themselves appear more 'intellectual'.
Maybe I've just been unlucky with the ones I've met B-)
Phil
PS "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"
Email (work): p...@newton.npl.co.uk | Phil Burford, CIRA,
Email (home): Ph...@peculiar.demon.co.uk | National Physical Laboratory,
Tel: +44 (0) 181 943 6696 | Teddington, Middx., UK. TW11 0LW
Any opinions stated do not represent those of Serco, NPL or the D.T.I.
Aimee Lortskell
: I heard on KROQ that effectively the picture means that men are pigs,
: figuratively and literally, I suppose, and that men have sucked the life
: out of her, the passion, the creativity, etc.
rantz has already cleared this - that is the opinion of the DJ's and not
tori's thoughts. and i think this was even indirectly covered by tori
the many times she talked about the theme of this album. she said
clearly that she felt very strong as an artist but found herself being a
parasite as a woman, needing to be connected to men to feel womanly. and
she uses terminology - vampirism - that suggests that she was often doing
the draining and in effect draining herself by not using her own inner
strength.
Aimee Lortskell
: George Cifrancis (g...@infinet.com) wrote:
: : It is MY opinion and I am entitled to it. If you don't like it, tough shit.
: Okay, now that just doesn't hold water. We both know (at least I hope
: so) that having an opinion does not mean that holder of said opinion is
: right, or that said opinion needs be accepted as gospel because it is
: believed by it's holder.
hey, go back and look at what he said. he didn't say everyone had to
agree or that his opinion is an actual fact. he just said he has a right
to his opinion, and he does. in fact, what he says above sounds exactly
like something you'd say.
i disagree with this guy's opinion strongly, but he did present it as
only his opinion, not 'gospel' (although that's an interesting term to
use here, considering how many of us view 'gospel'). now you honestly
should have known this guy wouldn't listen to reason, considering this
response to many people giving facts that contradicted his view. but he
has a right to do this. in my HS philosophy course, we coined a term for
it. freedom to be a dick. he has the right to be a dick. so don't let
it bug you so much and quit wasting logic on him.
Aimee the Whore
--
///////////////////////////////////////
/ i don't wanna be your other half \
/ i believe that one and one make two \
/ - Alanis Morissette \
///////////////////////////////////////
will_e...@corp.dialog.com
> The pig picture is not stupid, it is actually incredibaly sad and
>ironic. Tori thought she was going to be holding a baby to her breasts
>album has a strange sense of irony and sadness, like "Mama it wasn't my
>bullet" or "Selling his baby, just like my Daddy" and other lines like
>that. I think what Tori has made is wonderful because it does tiptoe the
>edge.
>**************************************************
>## Just having thoughts of Marianne - Tori Amos ##
>**************************************************
I still don't know where you got this idea by just looking at that
picture.
If you really want to get into meaning. Take all the pictures as a whole
statement. The cover may represent Pele (Tori) protecting her Brood (Boys
who are peering out the windows.) The piglet that Tori is feeding is one
of her 'Boys' who will grow up to be a Pig.
In a sense, Boys (The piglet) will grow up to be Men (Pigs). But who
created the Pig? Pele, who may represent Women in general, created that
which became a pig.
So does Tori (and the photographer) mean to say that Men become Pigs
because of Women? Who Knows, except Tori.
But I still don't see where Eric played into this symbolism...
Will
Pierre Becquey
: rantz has already cleared this - that is the opinion of the DJ's and not
: tori's thoughts. and i think this was even indirectly covered by tori
: the many times she talked about the theme of this album.
And here is what TORI thinks! From the intervien with Jane Stevenson
last night before her Much and CFNY appearences (and an AMAZING colour
picture of her, half page)
"It's the metaphor of embracing the hidden, the ugly, the shameful...
everybody talks about it, yea. But you know that's a reflection on them
because if you really look at the picture, this is mother and child. I'm
very aware of what this is going to bring up, but that doesn't mean THIS
is wrong. That means the oppression of this though is wrong".
She also mentionned on CFNY that she knows what the picture means to her,
and that it's supposed to mean something to each individual. It's up to
you to decide. Her words.
=-Pierre
Aimee Lortskell
[snip!]
: PS "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"
sometimes being the key word there. because sometimes a cigar is really
a nice big fat cigar. and sometimes it's a cock.
Aimee the Whore (cock expert)
--
--------------------------------------
| whores are great...we like whores! |
| - Tori Amos |
--------------------------------------
Midnight Tree Bandit
about...
>Tori doesn't do things without reason.
>It's not something to totally start a big mess about, though. <shrug>. People
>will speculate and speculate about what it means.
My theory is that she did it with the following in mind (with another look in
on the conversations between Tori and Cindy during the photo shoot -- we Tree
Bandits are experts at surveillance):
T: "Aww, c'mon Cindy. First that nasty mattress and now a PIG??"
C: "Yeah, but think of how much fun all the kids on rmt-a will have trying to
put a meaning on it..."
T: <giggles> "True... Rantz tells me they get some REALLY strange ideas..."
>Sickening? Uhh, if breastfeeding a pig is sickening to you, what are you doing
>on Usenet?
It's not like this is alt.sex.bestiality or anything...
-=><=-
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
100,000 druids can't be wrong! | There are 178 parent languages on our
Rev. Midnight Tree Bandit (ULC) | planet, with over one thousand dialects.
mtba...@io.com | It's amazing we communicate at all.
http://www.io.com/~mtbandit/ | -- EBN OZN
Eternally confused
: It's not like this is alt.sex.bestiality or anything...
How 'bout alt.sex.besTORIality?
Manglingly,
Hyoun
--
\_____________ "...if you allow yourself to feel \_a___________
\_____________ the way you really feel, maybe you \___m___s_____
\_____________ won't be afraid of that feeling \_____a___a___
\_____________ anymore." \_______t___i_
\_____________ tori amos \_________e___
\_____________ \_____________
hyoun park '98 hjp...@amherst.edu http://www.amherst.edu/~hjpark
Zach Zylawy
breast feeding the pig, I thought, "oh my God, she's finally
completely lost it", but I recently just saw a local London,
Ontario interview with her, and they asked Tori about the pig,
and she commented on how pigs will eat, anything, no matter
what it is, and I think she started talking about the pig was
feeding from her feminine parts, and she said that pigs will
even eat garbage, and it seems like she wanted to make the
point that females can have a lot of bad sides to their
personalities, and the only things alive that will put up with
it without question are pigs.
Pierre Becquey
: [pierre wasting his time snipped]
Offering a counter opinion is NEVER a waist of time. He was not the only
one reading this.
: hey, go back and look at what he said. he didn't say everyone had to
: agree or that his opinion is an actual fact.
I know. I can read. However, having phrased my first rebuke as an
attack on his opinion, I decided to go with an explanation of my point of
view. My side isn't fact either. It's also my opinion. All I wanted
was to see how he based his, and offered how I based mine. Is there a
problem?
he just said he has a right
: to his opinion, and he does. in fact, what he says above sounds exactly
: like something you'd say.
<sigh> I'm not biting, Aimee, just drop it.
: i disagree with this guy's opinion strongly, but he did present it as
: only his opinion, not 'gospel' (although that's an interesting term to
: use here, considering how many of us view 'gospel').
And I presented a counter-view. Where's the problem? My opening
paragraph was merely stating that an opinion not being neccessarily
right, I was opening a discussion.
now you honestly
: should have known this guy wouldn't listen to reason, considering this
: response to many people giving facts that contradicted his view.
Nope, this was my first encounter with him. I didn't realise until one
post after that he was a troll.
but he
: has a right to do this. in my HS philosophy course, we coined a term for
: it. freedom to be a dick. he has the right to be a dick. so don't let
: it bug you so much and quit wasting logic on him.
It doesn't bother me... I enjoy debating. Just writting something down
allows me to understand it myself.
I really don't know what was your point, here, Aimee. I really don't.
FlipTop
>>actually, i'll just quote my friend. "lucky pig."
>>
>I love Tori partly because she is a serious NUT. Only she would allow a
>piglet to suckle her... :-) Its that same wierd outlook that allows her
>to write songs like she does.
Has anybody considered that the pig is a reference to Trent Reznor's
tracks "Piggy" and "March of the Pigs" on "the Downward Spiral"???
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil James is Fli...@dial.pipex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Alison Strobel
about the video with the snakes and stuff. Or maybe this is a
faerie-nature bonding-thing we non-faeries can't appreciate.
Alison
*******************************************************************************
Alison Strobel | There are two ways to be a light unto the world:
str...@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu| to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it.
*******************************************************************************
Aimee Lortskell
: Has anybody considered that the pig is a reference to Trent Reznor's
: tracks "Piggy" and "March of the Pigs" on "the Downward Spiral"???
there's an entire thread discussing that idea, actually. look for
the...uh...dunno the exact title....but something about it being a slap
in trent's face.
Aimee the Whore
--
*--Toriphile---BAAWA!---NINnie--*
#############################################
* the blind have been blessed with security *
* - Trent Reznor *
#############################################
Blake Patterson
Are you being serious? Christ.
bp
--
[[[ URL: http://www.widomaker.com/~blake ]]]
+--------------------------------- ---- -- - - - - -
|Blake W. Patterson "I'm not quite clear about what you just spoke-
|bl...@widomaker.com Was that a parable, or a very subtle joke?"
|
+--ToriAmos-LoreenaMcKennitt-Enya-DavidWilcox-SarahMcLachlan-ElvisCostello--+
+----DavidBowie-CrashTestDummies-TheyMightBeGiants-RustedRoot-Pixies-XTC----+
Dave Joyce
>Phil Burford (P...@newton.npl.co.uk) wrote:
>[snip!]
>: PS "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"
>
>sometimes being the key word there. because sometimes a cigar is really
>a nice big fat cigar. and sometimes it's a cock.
>
>Aimee the Whore (cock expert)
>
Jaysus!
Remind me never to let you cut the end of off my cigar then!
Ugh!
<shudder>
:-{
Dave.
Aimee Lortskell
: ai...@saucer.cc.umr.edu (Aimee Lortskell) wrote:
: >sometimes being the key word there. because sometimes a cigar is really
you misspelled jeezus.
: Remind me never to let you cut the end of off my cigar then!
: Ugh!
: <shudder>
heh. i have a strict policy against circumcision, so you can stop sweating.
Aimee the Whore
--
i think the good book is missing some pages.
- Tori Amos
#--------------------------------------------#
agnostic apathetic atheist
don't know, don't care, don't buy it!
Malkav
it was said by a ToriPhile whose identiy i could not dicern:
::: Remind me never to let you cut the end of off my cigar then!
::: Ugh!
::: <shudder>
::
::heh. i have a strict policy against circumcision, so you can stop sweating.
you know...theology aside, as i really don't want to offend any Jewish
folk in ToriLand...i have a very deep love for Jewish theology,
specificaly their mystics...anyway, er, apology aside...
ok, you know, i honestly think circumcision is one of the damned cruelest
things parents can do to their, male obvioulsy, children...on the hygine
side, it may take a little more work, but foreskin is such a wonderful
thing...it really is...
and to put a child through that much pain...that is wrong, it really is...
granted they have no recollection of it as adults, but i really think it's
unnecesary...
sorry, it's just something i feel strongly about...
-the vampire bunny, who was just asked for a stapler
--
* * * Save the planet Kill yourself * * *
"Nothing, however, can be more arrogant, though nothing is commoner
than to assume that of the Gods there is only one, and of religions
none but the speaker's" Virginia Woolf, _Orlando_
write me, at william.p...@nd.edu
Aimee Lortskell
: the goddess of all evil (ai...@saucer.cc.umr.edu) wrote:
: ::heh. i have a strict policy against circumcision, so you can stop sweating.
[snip]
: ok, you know, i honestly think circumcision is one of the damned cruelest
: things parents can do to their, male obvioulsy, children...on the hygine
: side, it may take a little more work, but foreskin is such a wonderful
: thing...it really is...
and not only for the person who has it, either. my sister married a
british guy, and she says it made quite a pleasant difference for her.
having recently got a little experience with them myself i can tell you
that although i had to learn some new techniques, there are definite
advantages.
: and to put a child through that much pain...that is wrong, it really is...
: granted they have no recollection of it as adults, but i really think it's
: unnecesary...
: sorry, it's just something i feel strongly about...
me too. i think the excuse that the child won't remember the pain is
appalling. after all, if you mutilated some other part of your infant's
body it wouldn't be ok simply because it wouldn't remember later. people
put on quite a huff in the US recently when clitorectomies among african
tribes was widely publicized - and yet a similar mutilation of males is
almost automatic here. granted, circumcisions are *somewhat* safer
(there is no real set line where they're supposed to snip, so sometimes
they snip too much and it can cause problems for a man for his entire
life), but it still reduces sensitivity more than most men seem to
realize. it just sucks, and i know i'd never do that to any kid in my care.
Aimee the Whore
--
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
& and when they say, 'take of his body' &
& i think i'll take from mine instead &
& - Tori Amos &
& once i could see...now i am blind &
& - Trent Reznor &
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
Pierre Becquey
: it was said by a ToriPhile whose identiy i could not dicern:
: ::: Remind me never to let you cut the end of off my cigar then!
: ::: Ugh!
: ::: <shudder>
: ::
: ::heh. i have a strict policy against circumcision, so you can stop sweating.
: and to put a child through that much pain...that is wrong, it really is...
: granted they have no recollection of it as adults, but i really think it's
: unnecesary...
: sorry, it's just something i feel strongly about...
This is why I buy mom flowers on Mother's Day... 'cause she told my
grandmother (her Mother in Law) where exactly to go when they tried to
bring up that Catholic tradition of circumsising the first born son in
God's name.
<sniff>
I love my mom...
=-Pierre...to those who know me and are confused, my older brother and I
don't have the same dad, so I was my dad's first-born... and my dad's
family is SO catholic it would flabbergast the lot of you.
Alan Chaess
(Pierre Becquey) wrote:
Malkav (william.p...@nd.edu) wrote:
: the goddess of all evil (ai...@saucer.cc.umr.edu) wrote:
: it was said by a ToriPhile whose identiy i could not dicern:
: ::: Remind me never to let you cut the end of off my cigar then!
;;: ::: Ugh!
;;: ::: <shudder>
;;: ::
;;: ::heh. i have a strict policy against circumcision, so you can stop
sweating.
;;
;;: and to put a child through that much pain...that is wrong, it really is...
;;: granted they have no recollection of it as adults, but i really think it's
;;: unnecesary...
;;: sorry, it's just something i feel strongly about...
;;
;;This is why I buy mom flowers on Mother's Day... 'cause she told my
;;grandmother (her Mother in Law) where exactly to go when they tried to
;;bring up that Catholic tradition of circumsising the first born son in
;;God's name.
;;<sniff>
;;I love my mom...
Chill don't have a cow. Or a Pig...lol. Actually I'd diasagree, I'd say
lets see a little more. Besides its cool how many artists with talent
(WERE DEFINATELY NOT INCLUDING THE TALENTLESS MADONNA) can do that, get
away with it, and have it be totally cool!?!! Tori Rocks! I'm Making it a
startup pic!
--
Till Then Peace
-Chaeseco ( )ut
---------__o
-----_'\<,_ Speeding along the Information Super
-- (+)/ (+) Highway.... Chae...@Netaxs.com
Moonfaery9
there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with that picture...
she's expressing somethng... and that, in itself, is beautiful....
Pierre Becquey
: sorry to gross you out with details and i know all about this cultural
: relatism thing but really, they're completely different processes and if
: you support women's (not to mention human) rights at all, you really
: can't compare the two.
Cultural relativism is horseshit. If anyone cares to know why, I suggest
reading James Rachel's Elements of Contemporary Moral Philosophy for a
rather enlightning experiance.
<throws glove down>
ANyone caring to argue this with me is free to do so, of course. But
I've had this one out many times, so do try and be original.
: preachy,
: michelle
Not at all preachy. The words must be spoken. Right on, sista!
Keep flying,
=-Pierre
Aimee Lortskell
: [snip]
^^^^^^
now THAT was cold!
: >me too. i think the excuse that the child won't remember the pain is
: >appalling. after all, if you mutilated some other part of your infant's
: >body it wouldn't be ok simply because it wouldn't remember later. people
: >put on quite a huff in the US recently when clitorectomies among african
: >tribes was widely publicized - and yet a similar mutilation of males is
: >almost automatic here. granted, circumcisions are *somewhat* safer
: >(there is no real set line where they're supposed to snip, so sometimes
: >they snip too much and it can cause problems for a man for his entire
: >life), but it still reduces sensitivity more than most men seem to
: >realize. it just sucks, and i know i'd never do that to any kid in my care.
: it's all true on a concept level but you have to keep in mind that
: genital mutilation in africa is done in the dirt with materials that are
: not exactly steralized, at least not by standards that can prevent
: bacterial infection.
which is why i said that male circumcision in the US is safer. certainly
girls in africa are much more likely to bleed to death or die of
infections due to unsanitary conditions. i'm not disputing that at all.
[details i was aware of snipped]
: sorry to gross you out with details and i know all about this cultural
: relatism thing but really, they're completely different processes and if
: you support women's (not to mention human) rights at all, you really
: can't compare the two.
yes. yes, i can. even though the conditions are different, they are
both genital mutilation. certainly the other cultural nastiness
surrounding clitorectomies which you mentioned makes male circumcision
seem mild. but that doesn't make it trivial or acceptable. after all,
would you tell a woman who has survived an attempted rape that she should
shut up and just be glad she wasn't 'really' raped? there is a
difference in degree, but there is no question in my mind that both are
wrong.
male circumcision is also a violation of human rights. it may not be as
nasty or as life-threatening as what's done to some girls in africa, but
that doesn't mean we should ignore it or deny that it is harmful.
Michelle Barba Lisi
Aimee Lortskell <ai...@saucer.cc.umr.edu> wrote:
>Michelle Barba Lisi (mic...@copland.udel.edu) wrote:
>: Aimee Lortskell <ai...@saucer.cc.umr.edu> wrote:
[circumcision and genital mutilation compared, contrasted, and snippeted]
>[details i was aware of snipped]
that was colder..
>: sorry to gross you out with details and i know all about this cultural
>: relatism thing but really, they're completely different processes and if
>: you support women's (not to mention human) rights at all, you really
>: can't compare the two.
>yes. yes, i can. even though the conditions are different, they are
>both genital mutilation. certainly the other cultural nastiness
>surrounding clitorectomies which you mentioned makes male circumcision
>seem mild. but that doesn't make it trivial or acceptable. after all,
>would you tell a woman who has survived an attempted rape that she should
>shut up and just be glad she wasn't 'really' raped? there is a
>difference in degree, but there is no question in my mind that both are
>wrong.
>male circumcision is also a violation of human rights. it may not be as
>nasty or as life-threatening as what's done to some girls in africa, but
>that doesn't mean we should ignore it or deny that it is harmful.
i didn't say it was trivial or acceptable. i'm making a distinction
between genital mutilation to women in africa and male circumcision in
america because one is a symptom of mysogyny overall while the other is a
medical practice that has nothing to do with the status of men in our
country.
plus, circumcision, if its performed right, doesn't impede normal bodily
functions. genital mutilation does.
i'm not telling 'victims' of circumcision to shut up or go away
(although, i don't think circumcision is anywhere near as traumatic,
despite yr inappropriate analogy), i'm just trying to make a statement
about women's rights.
michelle
Aimee Lortskell
: i didn't say it was trivial or acceptable. i'm making a distinction
: america because one is a symptom of mysogyny overall while the other is a
: medical practice that has nothing to do with the status of men in our
: country.
it's an unnecessary and cruel medical practise. and to me it doesn't
even matter if it says anything about status. it's just wrong.
: plus, circumcision, if its performed right, doesn't impede normal bodily
: functions. genital mutilation does.
yes, it does impede normal bodily function. even if performed
'correctly'. although i'd argue that to be correct would be not to do it
at all. it IS genital mutilation, and it desensitizes the area and
reduces pleasure. it is also extremely painful and i believe it is abusive.
: i'm not telling 'victims' of circumcision to shut up or go away
: (although, i don't think circumcision is anywhere near as traumatic,
: despite yr inappropriate analogy), i'm just trying to make a statement
: about women's rights.
it depends on what you mean by traumatic. there are undoubtedly women in
africa who would staunchly defend the genital mutilation performed on
them, just as there are men who would defend circumcision to the point of
allowing it on their sons without even a flinch. but i know many men who
do feel mutilated and traumatized. and i'm not willing to just poo-poo
it because they're not women. if it became a common medical practise to
perform clitorectomies on female infants in this country - sanitarily,
etc - would you condone that? would you tell the girls they're lucky
that it wasn't as bad as what's done in africa? what i'm saying is that
this isn't even about women's rights. it's about HUMAN rights. and it
is just as wrong to mutilate a man as a woman.
Angela Reid
: (although, i don't think circumcision is anywhere near as traumatic,
: despite yr inappropriate analogy)
Although I think Aimee's right about circumcision in general, I have to
agree that the analogy between circumcision and what is called female
circumcision isn't really direct. Men who are circumcised are still
able to enjoy sex (there's probably a few around here who could confirm
that), while women who have been circumcised are not--and are not meant
to. The direct analogy to male circumcision in women is actually the
removal of the clitoral hood, which is done in some cases to increase
sexual responsiveness but which does, inevitably, lead to desensitization
of the clitoris.
Circumcision can prevent some medical problems in men, most particularly
bladder problems, but those same problems can *apparently* be prevented
by proper hygeine.
Angela
Pierre Becquey
: Circumcision can prevent some medical problems in men, most particularly
: bladder problems, but those same problems can *apparently* be prevented
: by proper hygeine.
There's really no *apparently* about it. It's all about hygiene. The
problems that arrouse (hahaha...<groan> with improper hygiene is the
devellopment of bacteria underneath the forskin... the little buggers
love those warm, dark, moist places. So, 'long as you keep it clean,
foreskins are fully retractable, so the area really isn't hard to get
to, a foreskin is actually quite an advantage, as the sensation is way
heightened during sex. Plus, it can be pretty cool for your lover, if
she (or he, I guess) is used to the cut men.
=-Pierre...proud owner of a foreskin
THOMAS SHEILA MARIE
Angela Reid <cel...@email.unc.edu> wrote:
>Michelle Barba Lisi (mic...@copland.udel.edu) wrote:
>
>: (although, i don't think circumcision is anywhere near as traumatic,
>: despite yr inappropriate analogy)
>
>Although I think Aimee's right about circumcision in general, I have to
>agree that the analogy between circumcision and what is called female
>circumcision isn't really direct. Men who are circumcised are still
>able to enjoy sex (there's probably a few around here who could confirm
>that), while women who have been circumcised are not--and are not meant
>to. The direct analogy to male circumcision in women is actually the
>removal of the clitoral hood, which is done in some cases to increase
>sexual responsiveness but which does, inevitably, lead to desensitization
>of the clitoris.
Thanks, Angela, for summing it up so well. If baby boys were having
their entire penis removed, I might get as worried about male
circumsision as I do about female genital mutilation.
>Circumcision can prevent some medical problems in men, most particularly
>bladder problems, but those same problems can *apparently* be prevented
>by proper hygeine.
Circumsicion reduces the instance of penile cancer in men. And,
regardless of the hygiene level of their partner, women with an
uncircumsized partner have a much increased risk of cervical cancer.
Sounds like fine arguements to me. I don't plan to have a child until I
can be sure of having a girl (another whole thread), but I supported the
decision of my friends who recently had a boy to have him circumsized
under local anesthesia at the age of three weeks (he was an ICU baby,
thus the wait) for reasons of health.
Anyone read the article in Spin right under the last part of the Tori
interview about how, even though we've now classified FGM as a reason to
grant political asylum, many immigration judges aren't going along with
the law and are sending women back home with instructions to "change
their attitude" about being mutilated?
Sheila/Elusis
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ "Your blood's on my hands/It's kind of a shame, 'cos I did like +
+ that dress" T. Amos +
+ "out of the ash i rise with my red hair & i eat men like air" Plath+
+ "Be purple, obsequious, and clairvoyant" Steve Martin +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
MATASSA THOMAS LOUIS
THOMAS SHEILA MARIE <thom...@ucsub.Colorado.EDU> wrote:
>Anyone read the article in Spin right under the last part of the Tori
>interview about how, even though we've now classified FGM as a reason to
>grant political asylum, many immigration judges aren't going along with
>the law and are sending women back home with instructions to "change
>their attitude" about being mutilated?
You have GOT to be kidding. Oh, Christ, I hope that the judges who will
be hearing challenges to the Telecom Law are not as big a load of pinheads.
Tom Matassa
"Got enough guilt to start my own religion." -- Tori Amos
Matthew Brotman
>There's really no *apparently* about it. It's all about hygiene. The
>problems that arrouse (hahaha...<groan> with improper hygiene is the
>devellopment of bacteria underneath the forskin...
Shouldn't that be "arise"? ;)
>... a foreskin is actually quite an advantage, as the sensation is way
>heightened during sex.
Compared to what? The only way you could know that is if you were circumcised
as an adult.
>Plus, it can be pretty cool for your lover, if she (or he, I guess) is used to the cut men.
Unless you're wearing a condom, in which case the difference would be minimal.
--
Matt
matt...@li.net http://www.li.net/~matthewb/
"Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine" - Patti Smith
Aimee Lortskell
: Thanks, Angela, for summing it up so well. If baby boys were having
: circumsision as I do about female genital mutilation.
so that's it? it's not as bad as something else, therefore we'll ignore
the fact that it is bad. well, that makes a lot of sense.
: Circumsicion reduces the instance of penile cancer in men.
i believe that penile cancer is actually directly related to the presence
of the foreskin. however, it's still a rather small risk to justify
removing it. would you remove a female infant's ovaries to prevent
ovarian cancer?
: And,
: regardless of the hygiene level of their partner, women with an
: uncircumsized partner have a much increased risk of cervical cancer.
this is why we have pap smears. after all, we wouldn't have them just
for fun. and again, this is a very tiny risk which doesn't IMNAAHO
justify removing the foreskin.
: Sounds like fine arguements to me. I don't plan to have a child until I
: can be sure of having a girl (another whole thread), but I supported the
: decision of my friends who recently had a boy to have him circumsized
: under local anesthesia at the age of three weeks (he was an ICU baby,
: thus the wait) for reasons of health.
because removing it is SO much easier than keeping it clean.
: Anyone read the article in Spin right under the last part of the Tori
: interview about how, even though we've now classified FGM as a reason to
: grant political asylum, many immigration judges aren't going along with
: the law and are sending women back home with instructions to "change
: their attitude" about being mutilated?
it seems to me that's exactly what you're doing here. i've agreed from
the start that this isn't as bad as clitorectomies and the other nasties
that go with it in africa. BUT you ask that men change their attitudes
simply because they could have it worse. that's pretty sick. it's like
telling tori she shouldn't sing MAAG or start a hotline because she
wasn't 'really' raped.
Aimee the Whore
--
///////////////////////////////////////
/ i don't wanna be your other half \
/ i believe that one and one make two \
/ - Alanis Morissette \
///////////////////////////////////////
Aimee Lortskell
: pbec...@acs.ryerson.ca (Pierre Becquey ) wrote:
: >There's really no *apparently* about it. It's all about hygiene. The
: >problems that arrouse (hahaha...<groan> with improper hygiene is the
: >devellopment of bacteria underneath the forskin...
: Shouldn't that be "arise"? ;)
it should indeed. and we expect what from a journalism student?
: >... a foreskin is actually quite an advantage, as the sensation is way
: >heightened during sex.
: Compared to what? The only way you could know that is if you were circumcised
: as an adult.
according to men who have been circumcised and had the foreskin
regenerated, he's right. also according to men who have been circumcised
later in life, he's right. and they're the only people who could in a
technical sense testify to that.
: >Plus, it can be pretty cool for your lover, if she (or he, I guess)
: >is used to the cut men.
: Unless you're wearing a condom, in which case the difference would be minimal.
this is true. but it's not always necessary to use a condom. don't make
that face at me, i'm thinking of my sister. she didn't marry a brit for
the accent. ;)
Aimee the Whore
--
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
:: maybe it's a part of me ::
:: you took it to a place i hoped it would never go ::
:: and maybe that fucked me up ::
:: much more than you'll ever know ::
:: - Trent Reznor ::
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Pierre Becquey
: >There's really no *apparently* about it. It's all about hygiene. The
: >problems that arrouse (hahaha...<groan> with improper hygiene is the
: >devellopment of bacteria underneath the forskin...
: Shouldn't that be "arise"? ;)
Notice the "HAHAHA, Groan?" It was a bad pun...
: >... a foreskin is actually quite an advantage, as the sensation is way
: >heightened during sex.
: Compared to what? The only way you could know that is if you were circumcised
: as an adult.
Hey, trust me. It's hard scientific fact that the region gets
desensitised. If it didn't, then you'd see a lot of people walking
around in pain.
Hey, I don't know what it's like to get an arm hacked off, but I betcha
it hurts.
: >Plus, it can be pretty cool for your lover, if she (or he, I guess) is used to the cut men.
: Unless you're wearing a condom, in which case the difference would be minimal.
Yea... details.
=-Pierre
David B. Goldberger
Aimee Lortskell <ai...@saucer.cc.umr.edu> wrote:
>THOMAS SHEILA MARIE (thom...@ucsub.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
>
>: Circumsicion reduces the instance of penile cancer in men.
>
>i believe that penile cancer is actually directly related to the presence
>of the foreskin. however, it's still a rather small risk to justify
>removing it. would you remove a female infant's ovaries to prevent
>ovarian cancer?
Ok, everyone. The white lab coat is on. It's lecture time.
1. The incidence of tumors arising from the actual penis is exceedingly
low. In fact, disorders actually involving the penis itself are very
rare. Testicular cancer and prostate cancer are much much _much_ more
common than penile tumors.
2. There have been some studies done that imply uncircumsized males as
spreading more genital warts and possibly causing increases in cervical
cancer in women.
Ingeneral, women are most likely to get breast cancer, followed by ovarian
cancer, followed by cervical cancer, followed by very remote chances of
getting vulvular cancers. Men are most likely to get prostate cancer,
especiall when old, followed by testicular cancer, especially if young,
followed by remote chances of getting penile tumors.
If you want to reduce your risk of getting cancer, don't use nicotine or
tobacco in any form, and use alcohol only in moderation. Getting
circumsized for health reasons is rather foolish. Incidently, I have a
friend who opted to get circumsized. He said it was one of the worst
experiences of his life.
>: And,
>: regardless of the hygiene level of their partner, women with an
>: uncircumsized partner have a much increased risk of cervical cancer.
>
>this is why we have pap smears. after all, we wouldn't have them just
>for fun. and again, this is a very tiny risk which doesn't IMNAAHO
>justify removing the foreskin.
>
>: Sounds like fine arguements to me. I don't plan to have a child until I
>: can be sure of having a girl (another whole thread), but I supported the
>: decision of my friends who recently had a boy to have him circumsized
>: under local anesthesia at the age of three weeks (he was an ICU baby,
>: thus the wait) for reasons of health.
You can't be sure of getting a girl. You could, however, choose to
conceive and then sex-type the embryo and choose to have an abortion if it
is a boy. All it takes is a doctor who will listen to you.
Clitorectomies are just wrong. It is up there with electroconvulsive
shock therapy and prefrontal lobotomies in terms of barbaricism and cruelty.
Ok, the lab coat's off now. Anyone wanna play doctor?
David
"I'm not depressed. I just like being sad." -Tori Amos
Angela Reid
: David B. Goldberger (gold...@riker.neoucom.edu) wrote:
<to his post n medical reasons for circumcision, thus the title of the
thread<
Leave us not forget paraphimosis. Of course, junior can
alert us to that problem if it occurs. No need to anticipate it. : )
: : It is up there with electroconvulsive shock therapy.
: This, however, I do NOT agree with you. ECT (electroconvulsive therapy) has
: many beneficial affects. It can help with migraines, stroke recovery,
: and an assortment of other ailments. What you are thinking of are the old
Can have a dramatic effect on a variety of mental illnesses, too. Not
for everyone, but shouldn't be so dreadfully stigmatized.
: P.S. How the HELL did this ever get to rec.music.tori-amos?
Everything comes here eventually.
Angela
Raised in a form of living hell Sing a one note song of rage Live and
die within your heart So beware in the shadows Your family tree waits
in the dark I say.... Mustaine.
Aimee Lortskell
: No, what makes a lot of sense is your contention that I should feel
: traumatized about this "terrible" thing that happened to me 27 years ago,
: which I have no conscious recollection of, which doesn't have the slightest
: effect on my ability to do ... uh ... anything, which most of the time I don't
: even think about. I should need therapy for this, I should resent my parents
: for doing this to me, I should resent my religion for requiring this?
: Puh-leeze.
[snip]
as i noted before, there are also women in africa who staunchly support
the traditions there. they don't think it's traumatic for them either.
does that make it ok?
i'm glad you don't feel traumatized. regenerating the foreskin is a long
and expensive process, so it's a good thing you don't mind. however,
this doesn't mean that other men don't feel traumatized. and the fact that
you don't remember it means nothing. some of the abuse i suffered as a
child i've blocked out and don't remember. does that mean the abuse was
just fine and dandy since i can't recall it? and the real test is whether
men who haven't been circumcised would be willing to get snipped since it's
apparently no big deal. the reaction to that suggestion 99% of the time
is a quick leg-crossing. not just because of the pain involved, but
because they don't want their genitals mutilated. i can't say i blame them.
Aimee the Whore
--
--------------------------------------
| whores are great...we like whores! |
| - Tori Amos |
--------------------------------------
Angela Reid
I do believe that's another problem that can be handled with proper
hygiene. If I understand correctly, penile cancer in uncircumcised men
has been linked to poor hygiene and, oddly, smoking. Even in
uncircumcised men, however, the odds of penile cancer are slim.
: regardless of the hygiene level of their partner, women with an
: uncircumsized partner have a much increased risk of cervical cancer.
I'm not familiar with these statistics. That's interesting.
Angela
Aimee Lortskell
: >this is why we have pap smears. after all, we wouldn't have them just
: >justify removing the foreskin.
: Nitpicking: Pap smears don't cure cancer, they just detect it.
i'm aware of that. i am all TOO familiar with pap smears. on a personal
note (and a you really didn't want to know note) i've recently switched
from planned parenthood to the university clinic now that i'm a student.
and the light they use doesn't give off any warmth. and they don't heat
the speculum at all. if you hear about me going on a killing rampage
there, you'll know what happened. that really pisses me off is that the
doctor is a woman who should really know better, but she gave me the same
line of BS i got from the male doctor i had in my teens. 'if it hurts,
you're too sensitive'. fucking idiots....but i digress.
: If the
: woman goes regularly. If they're read right, and not put through a "Pap
: mill" were technicians try to visually inspect hundreds of slides a day.
: If cervical cancer is detected, it takes, at a minimum, cryogenic removal
: of the affected area, and at the extreme, total hysterectomy and
: radiation or chemotherapy to cure.
but again, this is a minimal risk. being sexually active raises your
likelihood to get cervical cancer, and i don't see you saying let's all
stop fucking. also, if you're using a condom the foreskin shouldn't
raise the risk any more than a penis without one. you know, if you stay
locked in your house 24 hours a day, you're less likely to be hit by a
mack truck....
b
> >desensitised. If it didn't, then you'd see a lot of people walking
> >around in pain.
>
that's quite the double-entendre. hard scientific facts .. heh.
THOMAS SHEILA MARIE
David B. Goldberger <gold...@riker.neoucom.edu> wrote:
>>THOMAS SHEILA MARIE (thom...@ucsub.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
<circumcision arguements snipped, as no one is ever going to agree>
>>: Sounds like fine arguements to me. I don't plan to have a child until I
>>: can be sure of having a girl (another whole thread) <snippage>
>
>You can't be sure of getting a girl. You could, however, choose to
>conceive and then sex-type the embryo and choose to have an abortion if it
>is a boy. All it takes is a doctor who will listen to you.
Actually, you can now be about 95% sure of having a boy if you have a
doctor put the sperm through a centrifuge first. The "female" sperm are
heavier and get crushed in the center. The problem is how to keep them
alive if you want a girl... <G> That's one of the many reasons why I'll
probably be over 30 when and if I have a kid. ;>
And your cutting remark about sex-selective abortion is uncalled for. As if.
THOMAS SHEILA MARIE
Aimee Lortskell <ai...@saucer.cc.umr.edu> wrote:
>THOMAS SHEILA MARIE (thom...@ucsub.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
>: uncircumsized partner have a much increased risk of cervical cancer.
>
>for fun. and again, this is a very tiny risk which doesn't IMNAAHO
>justify removing the foreskin.
Nitpicking: Pap smears don't cure cancer, they just detect it. If the
woman goes regularly. If they're read right, and not put through a "Pap
mill" were technicians try to visually inspect hundreds of slides a day.
If cervical cancer is detected, it takes, at a minimum, cryogenic removal
of the affected area, and at the extreme, total hysterectomy and
radiation or chemotherapy to cure.
Sheila/Elusis
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ "And my priest says, "You ain't savin' no souls..."" T. Amos +
+ "the voice of your eyes is deeper than all roses" e.e. cummings +
+ "Ralph, are you eating the paste?" "Mnof Miffiv Hmoofer." Simpsons +
+ "Theatre is life. Film is art. Television is furniture." T-shirt +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
THOMAS SHEILA MARIE
Matthew Brotman <matt...@li.net> wrote:
>ai...@saucer.cc.umr.edu (Aimee Lortskell) wrote:
>
>>so that's it? it's not as bad as something else, therefore we'll ignore
>>the fact that it is bad. well, that makes a lot of sense.
>
>traumatized about this "terrible" thing that happened to me 27 years ago,
>which I have no conscious recollection of, which doesn't have the slightest
>effect on my ability to do ... uh ... anything, which most of the time I don't
>even think about. I should need therapy for this, I should resent my parents
>for doing this to me, I should resent my religion for requiring this?
>Puh-leeze.
I had a companionable thought, Matthew... I've never met a circumcized
man who said "Damn, my penis is so insensitive, I wish I could cum
faster!" <g,d,r from the sweet men in this ng who know full well that
I'm not disparaging all men's "staying power".> ;>
Sheila/Elusis
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Don't try to out-weird me. \ "All of us have a bit of \ Push the button,
I get stranger things than you \ the vampire and a bit of \ Frank.
free with my breakfast cereal. \ the nightingale." T. Amos \ (ENFX)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott Kenney
[snip]
: Oh my, I smell an Aimee coming...
if you know her so well....
--
scott kenney * sa...@chardos.connix.com * freebsd hacker * toriphile
veteran of the psychic wars * agent of fortune
disgruntled postal worker * aimee-fan
nomad of the time streams
THOMAS SHEILA MARIE
Aimee Lortskell <ai...@saucer.cc.umr.edu> wrote:
>THOMAS SHEILA MARIE (thom...@ucsub.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
>i'm aware of that. i am all TOO familiar with pap smears. on a personal
Your comment, then, was unclear. :> Thus the nitpick.
>note (and a you really didn't want to know note) i've recently switched
>from planned parenthood to the university clinic now that i'm a student.
>and the light they use doesn't give off any warmth. and they don't heat
>the speculum at all. if you hear about me going on a killing rampage
>there, you'll know what happened. that really pisses me off is that the
>doctor is a woman who should really know better, but she gave me the same
>line of BS i got from the male doctor i had in my teens. 'if it hurts,
>you're too sensitive'. fucking idiots....but i digress.
Is there any other gyn or nurse practitioner available to you? This kind
of crap is bad enough, but from a woman??? Argh. Bet she's a member of
Concerned Women for America.
I'm totally lucky... the NPs at both my universities so far have been
wonderful. Warm hands, pleasant voices, gentle with the tools. Thanks to
various (more than you wanted to know) irregularities in my cycle lately,
I've been in the stirrups 3 times in the past 5 months. I think one
year, between Planned Parenthood (where I normally went,) the school
clinic (where I went for a yeast infection,) and my doctor back home, I
had 3 Pap smears inside of 10 months. Ow. :>
>: If the
>: woman goes regularly. If they're read right, and not put through a "Pap
>: mill" were technicians try to visually inspect hundreds of slides a day.
>: If cervical cancer is detected, it takes, at a minimum, cryogenic removal
>: of the affected area, and at the extreme, total hysterectomy and
>: radiation or chemotherapy to cure.
>
>but again, this is a minimal risk. being sexually active raises your
>likelihood to get cervical cancer, and i don't see you saying let's all
>stop fucking. also, if you're using a condom the foreskin shouldn't
>raise the risk any more than a penis without one. you know, if you stay
>locked in your house 24 hours a day, you're less likely to be hit by a
>mack truck....
Look, no one is going to agree here. The rist from being sexually active
with a circumsized partner to being sexually active with an uncircumsized
one increases enormously. And unless one plans to use condoms all one's
life, even in mutually tested, monogamous relationships, it's a risk
women have to deal with. So, I'm not going to condemn parents who make
an informed choice in favor of circumcision, just like I'm not going to
go around telling uncut men that they should see a doctor for their
little problem. <G>
Sheila/Elusis
Telecommunications Act defiance for the day:
The Breast Cancer Coalitions says that there is no documented medical
evidence that having an abortion increases the risk for breast
cancer, or makes women susceptible to more malignant forms of breast cancer.
David B. Goldberger
>David B. Goldberger <gold...@riker.neoucom.edu> wrote:
>>>THOMAS SHEILA MARIE (thom...@ucsub.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
>>
>>conceive and then sex-type the embryo and choose to have an abortion if it
>>is a boy. All it takes is a doctor who will listen to you.
>
>
being completely honest. I believe in giving people choice. Hell, God
gave Adam and Eve the choice to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and
evil, after all. I'm merely following in my maker's footsteps.
What, you don't like that argument? Well, since I must now defend my
stance, here goes. If you believe in allowing others to have freedom of
choice to make medical decisions about their own bodies, then the
physician's role is to inform a person of all the choices available to
them, and of the medical benifits and disadvantages of each choice. And
I'm sure that you you will be willing to admit to people having some
freedom of choice. Your counter-argument would most likely be something
along the lines of "Abortion is wrong." Maybe you will say that abortion
is acceptable only in a few circumstances, but you would then admit that
there are times when it is an acceptable choice. And anyways, regardless
of what your argument is, you will still have made a choice to believe
what you believe. So, why should you deny this same freedom to others?
Of course, maybe I'm just reading too much into your statement and am
grouchy and tired. In this case, I apologize for not having a sense of
humor on this subject.
Otherwise, you better be prepared for a fight (a philosophical and ethical
battle, not a flame.) Ok?
Or, you can e-mail me at gold...@riker.neoucom.edu.
Later,
David
"I have seen things you people wouldn't believe.
All those memories will be lost in time
like tears in rain."
Andrew Onifer
arose and said:
>Excuse me? Who fucking died and put your morality above mine? I was
>being completely honest. I believe in giving people choice. Hell, God
>gave Adam and Eve the choice to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and
>evil, after all. I'm merely following in my maker's footsteps.
Oh my, I smell an Aimee coming...
jay
"Congress shall make no law respecting free speech."
-Prosecutor Don Ingrahm on a recent C|NET TV interview
Andrew J. Onifer III a...@po.cwru.edu
http://b61725.student.cwru.edu/ PGP Key on WWW page
David B. Goldberger
able to find so far. Tumour refers to both benign and malignant
processes. The source of this information is Robbins Pathologic Basis of
Disease, 5th ed., edited by Cotran, Kumar, Robbins, managing editor is
Frederick Schoen. Published by WB Saunders Company in 1994.
1. Tumors of the penis are, on the whole, uncommon.
2. Benign tumours.
a) Condyloma acuminatum-caused by human papilloma virus. Sexually
transmitted. (specifically, HPV 6 and 11 implicated)
b) Giant Condyloma. HPV 6 and 11 are also implicated as causative
agents. This form does not metastasize, and thus cannot be considered
malignant. However, it can grow large, and can locally invade adjacent
tissues, and can (rarely) cover and destroy much of the penis.
3. Malignant tumours:
Squamous cell carcinoma of the penis (a cancer of the skin of the
penis): This cancer represents 1% of all cancers in males in the US.
a) Circumcision apparently conveys protection (squamous cell
carcinoma is extremely rare in Jewish and Moslem groups and is more common
in places where circumcision is _not_ routinely performed.) The reason
why circumcision prevents the cancer is unkown, but the prevention of
smegma accumulation is the traditional reason. This is a slowly growing
cancer, but most cases are not brought to the attention of a physician
until significant growth and possible metastasis has occured. Apparently,
it takes over a year for the disease to progress and spread to regional
lymph nodes. It has a decent cure rate except in very advanced cases.
Incidently, the peak ages of incidence for penile carcinoma is 40-70,
while the peak incidence of testicular cancers of all types is 15-34.
Also, testicular cancers account for 10% of all cancers in males of the
ages of 15-34.
Lung cancer, by way of comparison, accounts for 16% of all male cancers
and is extremely lethal.
How accurate these numbers really are is unkown. One thing I've noticed
about medical statistics in my studies is that they tend to vary wildly
from study to study.
I hope this information is of benefit to someone out there. If you have
further questions, email me (gold...@riker.neoucom.edu)
David Goldberger (gold...@riker.neoucom.edu)
I've spent too many years at war with myself
My doctor has told me it's no good for my health
Too search for perfection is all very well
But to look for heaven is to live here in hell
-Sting
Aimee Lortskell
: >And your cutting remark about sex-selective abortion is uncalled for. As if.
: Excuse me? Who fucking died and put your morality above mine? I was
: being completely honest. I believe in giving people choice. Hell, God
: gave Adam and Eve the choice to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and
: evil, after all. I'm merely following in my maker's footsteps.
this is a simple misunderstanding. elusis thought dave was making a
nasty remark, when he was really just giving information. now hig and
make up.
now dave, about this god stuff. ok, i don't believe it. but the story
says something to me. and i'da taken the fruit the second i had the
chance. i woulda eaten from the tree of life, too. and instead of being
scared, i would have told god to fuck off.
Aimee the Whore (mmmm...blasphemy)
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
^ we all had delusions in our head ^
^ we all had our minds made up for us ^
^ we had to believe in something ^
^ ...so we did ^
^ - Alanis Morissette ^
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Aimee Lortskell
: Secondly, should you not say "Give us leave not to forget..." or "Let us
: not..." instead of "Leave us not..."? Sorry, a sudden urge to pick at
: nits arose.
it's contagious. :)
[electro-shock therapy]
: Fine. I'd like to see *YOU* volunteer to have electricity sent coursing
: through your brain. No no no sirree, not for me!
you're just not desperate enough, dave. people who get ECT are suffering
badly and are willing to try just about anything to alleviate the pain.
[snip]
: It wasn't until
: the DSM-III came out that homosexuality was finally considered an
: alternate lifestyle and not a disease or deviant behavior.
you should note this was 1980, so people have an idea what that means.
it is disturbing how long that took. some people still don't get it, it
was the first thing one guy asked about in my psych class last semester
when we were talking about sexual fetishes. for that matter, i'm unsure
why fetishes count either....
: And you would
: condone the use of raw electrical energy blasted through somebody's brain
: as beneficial?
as angela noted, they are considerably more careful about it now. both
in choosing who gets it and in how much electricity is used. it still
can have bad effects (usually short-term memory loss from around the time
of the treatment, rarely long-term memory loss), but most people who get it
seem to think it's worth the risk. it does have beneficial effects, i
think the danger is in being unsure of what other effects it can have.
you noted earlier that we don't really understand the brain and emotion,
and this is really one of those very clear-cut cases where we have no
fucking clue how it works. we don't know why it has the effects it does,
so there could be side effects that we don't even understand.
however, i don't think it's quite as barbaric as you make it sound. i
sure wouldn't compare it to the use of lobotomies and insulin comas in
the past. i prolly wouldn't choose to get ECT unless i was in a truly bad
situation. i have enough holes in my memory without creating new ones,
and it's certainly on an emotional level a very creepy procedure.
Aimee the Whore
--
i think the good book is missing some pages.
- Tori Amos
#--------------------------------------------#
agnostic apathetic atheist
don't know, don't care, don't buy it!
Aimee Lortskell
: mon...@netcom.com (monty Kane) wrote:
: > Most of the arguments for circumcision that I've heard are from
: >the hygiene viewpoint - it's a pain to keep clean and it gets infections
: >and stuff. By this reasoning we should all have our teeth pulled as well.
: One small flaw in "this reasoning":
: What exactly does the foreskin do that is so important to human survival that
: it's worth the trouble of maintaining it?
this is a baffling attitude. now we have to prove that our bodies
shouldn't be mutilated???! one could say the same thing about the
clitoris, i suppose. and yet i expect mine to stay right where it is
until someone can give me a reason why it *shouldn't* be maintained!
honestly, a foreskin isn't any trouble at all. ask anyone who has one.
think about it, would you really mind spending a few more seconds cleaning
mr. winky?
what exactly does the pinky toe do that is so important to human survival
that it's worth the trouble of maintaining them? how about earlobes? i
think the burden of proof is on the people who want to have them ripped
off. we don't bother removing appendixes or tonsils unless they're an
actual problem, i think the same should go for the foreskin. in a very
VERY few cases circumcision is indicated. but it should by no means be a
casual and automatic procedure.
: Sheesh.
you misspelled furrfu.
Doug Gentges
Goldberger) wrote:
[a few lines deleted (I refuse to say "snipped")]
> a) Circumcision apparently conveys protection (squamous cell
>carcinoma is extremely rare in Jewish and Moslem groups and is more common
>in places where circumcision is _not_ routinely performed.)
The way this is stated raises a couple of questions in my mind. I
would guess that there is at least some corolation between areas where
circuncision is practiced and the leves of hygene in these areas.
>How accurate these numbers really are is unkown. One thing I've noticed
>about medical statistics in my studies is that they tend to vary wildly
>from study to study.
Much of this variation is due to the dificulty of performing realy
well controled and designed experiments on people.
Doug
----------
Doug Gentges
dgen...@umr.edu
"You gotta fight for your right to have a monster"-T.A.
THOMAS SHEILA MARIE
>>David B. Goldberger <gold...@riker.neoucom.edu> wrote:
>>>You can't be sure of getting a girl. You could, however, choose to
>>>conceive and then sex-type the embryo and choose to have an abortion if it
>>>is a boy. All it takes is a doctor who will listen to you.
>>
>>
>Excuse me? Who fucking died and put your morality above mine? I was
>being completely honest. I believe in giving people choice. Hell, God
>gave Adam and Eve the choice to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and
>evil, after all. I'm merely following in my maker's footsteps.
Sorry? When did we bring someone's god into this? I didn't say anything
about putting my morality above yours. I was trying to indicate that I
felt your comment that I could just have a sex-selective abortion if I
wanted a girl was a cheap shot, since most pro-choice people agree that
abortion for the sake of producing a child with "desireable"
characteristics is pretty morally questionable.
>What, you don't like that argument? Well, since I must now defend my
>stance, here goes. If you believe in allowing others to have freedom of
>choice to make medical decisions about their own bodies, then the
>physician's role is to inform a person of all the choices available to
>them, and of the medical benifits and disadvantages of each choice. And
>I'm sure that you you will be willing to admit to people having some
>freedom of choice. Your counter-argument would most likely be something
>along the lines of "Abortion is wrong." Maybe you will say that abortion
>is acceptable only in a few circumstances, but you would then admit that
>there are times when it is an acceptable choice. And anyways, regardless
>of what your argument is, you will still have made a choice to believe
>what you believe. So, why should you deny this same freedom to others?
Um, hey, Dave? Are you sure you're talking to me? I think you've read
something in here that is TOTALLY non-existant. I am completely and
totally pro-choice, and I always have been. I had an abortion at 15 1/2
and don't regret it one fucking bit (thankyouverymuch all the "abortion
victims" out there). Part of my "charity fund" each year goes to NOW and
other pro-choice organizations. I don't know where you read something
that indicated that I felt abortion was wrong, but I certainly never said
that.
>Of course, maybe I'm just reading too much into your statement and am
>grouchy and tired. In this case, I apologize for not having a sense of
>humor on this subject.
Apology accepted. It happens to all of us. I'm still pretty baffled,
though. <G>
>Otherwise, you better be prepared for a fight (a philosophical and ethical
>battle, not a flame.) Ok?
I don't think we need to worry about fighting. It sounds like we're
actually in the same place. Again, I just feel that throwing the spectre
of "eugenic" abortion into the arena is a cheap shot. You probably
didn't mean it that way, so no problem, eh?
Anti-abortion fanatic wacko types really suck. The few moderates who can
"agree to disagree" are pretty far between, in my experience. Remember
Dr. Gunn, everybody. :(
THOMAS SHEILA MARIE
Aimee Lortskell <ai...@saucer.cc.umr.edu> wrote:
>David B. Goldberger (gold...@riker.neoucom.edu) wrote:
>[snip]
>: the DSM-III came out that homosexuality was finally considered an
>: alternate lifestyle and not a disease or deviant behavior.
>
>you should note this was 1980, so people have an idea what that means.
>it is disturbing how long that took. some people still don't get it, it
>was the first thing one guy asked about in my psych class last semester
>when we were talking about sexual fetishes. for that matter, i'm unsure
>why fetishes count either....
Amen.
IIRC, fetishes are only "counted" if they reach a certain level of
obsession/compulsion. Anyone have a copy and want to check this? I'm
relying on memory here.
D'ja know that in the DSM-IV, PMS has been added as a psychological
disorder? This, despite vast medical evidence that the problems
associated with PMS are definitely physical in origin. Arrrgh. Another
reason to tell us "it's all in your head".
Sheila/Elusis
THOMAS SHEILA MARIE
Aimee Lortskell <ai...@saucer.cc.umr.edu> wrote:
>David B. Goldberger (gold...@riker.neoucom.edu) wrote:
>: >And your cutting remark about sex-selective abortion is uncalled for. As if.
>: Excuse me? Who fucking died and put your morality above mine? I was
>: being completely honest. I believe in giving people choice. Hell, God
>: gave Adam and Eve the choice to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and
>: evil, after all. I'm merely following in my maker's footsteps.
>
>this is a simple misunderstanding. elusis thought dave was making a
>nasty remark, when he was really just giving information. now hig and
>make up.
I think we already did. I did, anyway. Right, Dave ol' buddy? :>
>now dave, about this god stuff. ok, i don't believe it. but the story
>says something to me. and i'da taken the fruit the second i had the
>chance. i woulda eaten from the tree of life, too. and instead of being
>scared, i would have told god to fuck off.
Hehehehe. I wonder what would have happened if Adam and Eve had just
stood up to old Yaweh and told him what they thought of his little rigged
shell game, eh? ;>
Robert the Faerie
[a lot of, uh, interesting stuff snipped]
> >P.S. How the HELL did this ever get to rec.music.tori-amos?
> >
> Well, we were discussing the official rmta wanking party, and somebody
> circumsized the conversation. Remember, everybody?
*ahem* yes, we remember that. Well, I do anyway, since you were getting
dangerously close with those scissors....
Robert the Faerie
696969696969696969
"One thing about the draft resistance that's different from other
movements and revolutions in this country in that we have no enemies,
that's one of the beautiful things about it, and to show that our hearts
are in the right place, we'll sing a song for the governor of California,
Ronald Reagunz...[song begins] He's a drug store truck drivin' man, he's
the head of the ku klux klan, when summer comes rolling around, we'll
be lucky to get out of town" Jeffrey Shurtieff and Joan Baez at Woodstock.
Aimee Lortskell
: relying on memory here.
criteria a - at least 6 months of recurrent, intense sexually arousing
fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviours involving the use of non-living
objects.
criteria b - this causes clinically significant distress or impairment in
social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
criteria c - fetish objects not limited to articles of female clothing
used in cross-dressing or devices designed for the purpose of tactile
genital stimulation.
b and c would be the real sticking points where most fetishists wouldn't
qualify for having a disorder.
: D'ja know that in the DSM-IV, PMS has been added as a psychological
: disorder? This, despite vast medical evidence that the problems
: associated with PMS are definitely physical in origin. Arrrgh. Another
: reason to tell us "it's all in your head".
i don't think so. after all, many mental illnesses are actually
physically caused or influenced. schizophrenia is now accepted as being
mostly biological (although onset is thought to be triggered by
environmental stress). the thought behind classifying it as
psychological is that the effects are on the mind, thought processes,
and emotions. a lot of disorders ride the borderline between
psychological and medical. of course, i couldn't find PMS in my DSM-IV.
if you can tell me what section it's in (and maybe they call it something
else, i still dunno why they decided to change MPD to DID, it just seems
like a pain) i can look it up.
Aimee the Whore
--
*--NINnie----BAAWA!----Toriphile------Crunchy PB Heretic--*
* losing your faith is a lot like losing your virginity; *
* you don't realize how irritating it was 'til it's gone *
* - AEL (me) *
*---------------------------------------------------------*
Aimee Lortskell
[snip]
: >now dave, about this god stuff. ok, i don't believe it. but the story
: >chance. i woulda eaten from the tree of life, too. and instead of being
: >scared, i would have told god to fuck off.
: Hehehehe. I wonder what would have happened if Adam and Eve had just
: stood up to old Yaweh and told him what they thought of his little rigged
: shell game, eh? ;>
he seems like such an overly sensitive guy. i think he'da shit a brick.
maybe had a stroke.
Aimee the Whore
that abby girl
> THOMAS SHEILA MARIE (thom...@ucsub.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
> : D'ja know that in the DSM-IV, PMS has been added as a psychological
> : disorder? This, despite vast medical evidence that the problems
> : associated with PMS are definitely physical in origin. Arrrgh. Another
> : reason to tell us "it's all in your head".
>
> i don't think so. after all, many mental illnesses are actually
> physically caused or influenced. schizophrenia is now accepted as being
> mostly biological (although onset is thought to be triggered by
> environmental stress). the thought behind classifying it as
> psychological is that the effects are on the mind, thought processes,
> and emotions. a lot of disorders ride the borderline between
> psychological and medical.
i thought the current thinking was that almost all mental illnesses
were caused by a combination of physical and psychological factors (ie: i
may have a physical predisposition for depression, but i wouldn't get
depressed without psychological stress as well). that's why the
medications work so well for most (if not all) mental illnesses: because
they change the physical chemistry that interacts with the psychological
problems. it's not a case of it being primarily one or the
other却sychiatrists don't prescribe meds without therapy, and for serious
cases, rarely prescribe therapy without meds.
i think that the recognition of pms in the dsm-iv is a good thing,
rather than a bad thing; it kind of aknowledges it as a real, significant
problem, not something that women are making up, but rather something that
needs treatment and attention and shouldn't be ignored. it's now an
officially recognized problem rather than something than can be written
off as an excuse for moodiness or something.
is it good that officially listing a disorder or problem or whatever
you want to call pms makes it more acceptable, more believable, something
that it's okay to have? hrm. something to ponder.
abby.
(who notes that this has No tori content whatsoever and loves this
newsgroup for it. irrelevancies rock
*basket case bitch*shiny and loud*high-octane*angry snatch*
ab...@nwu.edu
MATASSA THOMAS LOUIS
that abby girl <ab...@nwu.edu> wrote:
> i thought the current thinking was that almost all mental illnesses
>were caused by a combination of physical and psychological factors
Actually, no. Some are, some aren't. Personality disorders, for example,
do not have a known physiological basis. They result from environmental
and behavioural factors. I know -- I apparently got one (avoidant p. d.),
and anti-depressants didn't do a thing for me.
Please don't yell at me. :)
Tom Matassa
"Got enough guilt to start my own religion." -- Tori Amos
that abby girl
> In article <abbyj-18029...@cha076041.res-hall.nwu.edu>,
> that abby girl <ab...@nwu.edu> wrote:
> > i thought the current thinking was that almost all mental illnesses
> >were caused by a combination of physical and psychological factors
>
> Actually, no. Some are, some aren't. Personality disorders, for example,
> do not have a known physiological basis. They result from environmental
> and behavioural factors. I know -- I apparently got one (avoidant p. d.),
> and anti-depressants didn't do a thing for me.
>
> Please don't yell at me. :)
my bad. shoudl have known (having a personality disorder myself, but
then again, who doesn't these days?). but pms seems to me that it would
fall under mood disorders rather than personality disorders, so then it
Does fit in. i should have said that almost all axis 1 disorders were
thought to have been caused by a combination of physical and psychological
factors. better? :)
abby.
(shall we start a new thread where everyone shares their various disorders
and medications? that could be informative.)
Andrew Onifer
>
>abby.
>(shall we start a new thread where everyone shares their various disorders
>and medications? that could be informative.)
Well, this isn't a disorder, but I'm historically quiet and shy and
inhibited. I don't think they make a medication for that, but I
prolly wouldn't take it anyway.
jay
(are near-sightedness and an astygmatism disorders?)
& I tried to tell my life story to the rain, &
& but it just ran into the sewer... &
& Andrew J. Onifer III ---> a...@po.cwru.edu &
& http://b61725.student.cwru.edu/ &
& PGP Key on WWW page &
David B. Goldberger
Aimee Lortskell <ai...@saucer.cc.umr.edu> wrote:
>David B. Goldberger (gold...@riker.neoucom.edu) wrote:
>
>: Fine. I'd like to see *YOU* volunteer to have electricity sent coursing
>: through your brain. No no no sirree, not for me!
>
>you're just not desperate enough, dave. people who get ECT are suffering
>badly and are willing to try just about anything to alleviate the pain.
Actually, now that I think about it, it might be a rather interesting
experience. Wonder if it gives you hallucinations? This could be the
drug of the 21st century...
>you should note this was 1980, so people have an idea what that means.
True.
>when we were talking about sexual fetishes. for that matter, i'm unsure
>why fetishes count either....
Actually, it is frightening how many different things you can report as a
disease. There's a whole section on personalities in the DSM-IV. I don't
really like the implied ethics in the book, either.
>seem to think it's worth the risk. it does have beneficial effects, i
>think the danger is in being unsure of what other effects it can have.
>you noted earlier that we don't really understand the brain and emotion,
>and this is really one of those very clear-cut cases where we have no
>fucking clue how it works. we don't know why it has the effects it does,
>so there could be side effects that we don't even understand.
Well, when they discover why it works and make selective chemicals that
perform the benefits of ECT without the negatives, then I'll use those
drugs (on patients who need them). Until then, I will not perform any
ECTs unless forced by legal means (or violent means, and no, BD/SM does
not count as violent means, aimee).
David B. Goldberger
Aimee Lortskell <ai...@saucer.cc.umr.edu> wrote:
>David B. Goldberger (gold...@riker.neoucom.edu) wrote:
>: being completely honest. I believe in giving people choice. Hell, God
>: gave Adam and Eve the choice to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and
>: evil, after all. I'm merely following in my maker's footsteps.
>[rest of dave's rant snipped]
>this is a simple misunderstanding. elusis thought dave was making a
>nasty remark, when he was really just giving information. now hig and
>make up.
Ok, then. (I haven't read any of the other replies yet, so if there are
some pyrotechnics then this hig is invalid.) *hig*
>
>now dave, about this god stuff. ok, i don't believe it. but the story
>says something to me. and i'da taken the fruit the second i had the
>chance. i woulda eaten from the tree of life, too. and instead of being
>scared, i would have told god to fuck off.
>
well, I don't really believe it either; it just sounded like a good
argument just in case elusis was a closet fundie.
>Aimee the Whore (mmmm...blasphemy)
What's blasphemy mean? Can I do some of that too?
David B. Goldberger
Aimee Lortskell <ai...@saucer.cc.umr.edu> wrote:
>THOMAS SHEILA MARIE (thom...@ucsub.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
>: stood up to old Yaweh and told him what they thought of his little rigged
>: shell game, eh? ;>
>
>he seems like such an overly sensitive guy. i think he'da shit a brick.
>maybe had a stroke.
>
everything. And then he'd be all lonely and all, so he'd have to go
through creating everything again and again until finally Adam and Eve
got it right. God is real into fire and brimstone and salt and floods and
plagues and other sundry calamaties. O:>
David B. Goldberger
>David B. Goldberger <gold...@riker.neoucom.edu> wrote:
>>In article <4fuqer$m...@peabody.colorado.edu>,
>>>David B. Goldberger <gold...@riker.neoucom.edu> wrote:
[original stuff that started this snipped]
>Sorry? When did we bring someone's god into this? I didn't say anything
>about putting my morality above yours. I was trying to indicate that I
>felt your comment that I could just have a sex-selective abortion if I
>wanted a girl was a cheap shot, since most pro-choice people agree that
>abortion for the sake of producing a child with "desireable"
>characteristics is pretty morally questionable.
Sorry about the god thing. It was kinda satirical; and I felt like
exhibiting my stunted god-complex. But, seriously, as far as the
"morally questionable" statement goes: As a future physician I refuse to
pass any moral judgement calls on the decisions my patients will make. My
duty as a physician is to help guide a person's health and health choices,
not to influence them and bend them to my brand of ethics. Unfortunately,
there are lots and lots of doctors out there who _will_ misinform or not
inform their patients. I know of several academically excellent
physicians who are absolutely horrible in this regard. A few of them
teach us med students. So, the moral of the story, if there is a moral,
is that medically there is nothing wrong with aborting "undesirable"
fetuses. I don't know if I would personally choose that, but others
might. And who am I to deny others that choice?
>>What, you don't like that argument? Well, since I must now defend my
>>stance, here goes. If you believe in allowing others to have freedom of
>>choice to make medical decisions about their own bodies, then the
>>physician's role is to inform a person of all the choices available to
>>them, and of the medical benifits and disadvantages of each choice. And
>>I'm sure that you you will be willing to admit to people having some
>>freedom of choice. Your counter-argument would most likely be something
>>along the lines of "Abortion is wrong." Maybe you will say that abortion
>>is acceptable only in a few circumstances, but you would then admit that
>>there are times when it is an acceptable choice. And anyways, regardless
>>of what your argument is, you will still have made a choice to believe
>>what you believe. So, why should you deny this same freedom to others?
>
>Um, hey, Dave? Are you sure you're talking to me? I think you've read
>something in here that is TOTALLY non-existant.
Well, heh, actually, I was kinda trawling for morally incompetent people.
None have bit yet... I think aimee's presence has scared most of them
away. It's too bad, really. I have these ulterior desires of corrupting
the innocent and the blind... :>
>>Of course, maybe I'm just reading too much into your statement and am
>>grouchy and tired. In this case, I apologize for not having a sense of
>>humor on this subject.
>
>Apology accepted. It happens to all of us. I'm still pretty baffled,
>though. <G>
>
>>Otherwise, you better be prepared for a fight (a philosophical and ethical
>>battle, not a flame.) Ok?
>
>I don't think we need to worry about fighting. It sounds like we're
>actually in the same place. Again, I just feel that throwing the spectre
>of "eugenic" abortion into the arena is a cheap shot. You probably
>didn't mean it that way, so no problem, eh?
It's cool.
>
>Anti-abortion fanatic wacko types really suck. The few moderates who can
>"agree to disagree" are pretty far between, in my experience. Remember
>Dr. Gunn, everybody. :(
>
Well, my mother opened up an abortion clinic in Akron, Ohio, in the late
seventies. Let me tell you, it was a wierd childhood for me. Oh, there
were
bomb threats and picketers around the house and lectures from mom about
what should and shouldn't be discussed outside of the house. Actually,
she ended up sueing the city of akron because of a number of anti-abortion
laws they started passing. And mom won! (Nothing like having the ACLU
on your side).
BTW it has since been sold, due to the problems getting doctors, and the
expriation of the lease and the landlords reluctance to renew, etc.
David B. Goldberger
Doug Gentges <dgen...@umr.edu> wrote:
>On Fri, 16 Feb 1996 07:40:11 GMT, gold...@riker.neoucom.edu (David B.
>Goldberger) wrote:
>
>[a few lines deleted (I refuse to say "snipped")]
>
>> a) Circumcision apparently conveys protection (squamous cell
>>carcinoma is extremely rare in Jewish and Moslem groups and is more common
>>in places where circumcision is _not_ routinely performed.)
>
>The way this is stated raises a couple of questions in my mind. I
>would guess that there is at least some corolation between areas where
>circuncision is practiced and the leves of hygene in these areas.
SO you are saying that you think the reason for the decreased incidence of
penile cancer in Jewish & Moslem groups is that they are more hygenic than
the groups which are not circumsized? Or that it's a contributing
variable? An interesting point, from a research point-of-view. I'll keep
my eyes open.
>>How accurate these numbers really are is unkown. One thing I've noticed
>>about medical statistics in my studies is that they tend to vary wildly
>>from study to study.
>
>Much of this variation is due to the dificulty of performing realy
>well controled and designed experiments on people.
>
Not to mention the small sample sizes used (usually owing to the rarity of
the disease) and that wonderful ability of statisticians to be able to
manipulate numbers to mean what they need them to mean (not that I mean
any disrespect to statisticians, just that I've seen it done).
David
Daniel Bradshaw
>>
>>abby.
>>(shall we start a new thread where everyone shares their various disorders
>>and medications? that could be informative.)
Okee-dokey....
Degenrative nearsightedness (20/200 in my left eye, and dropping!)
Low blood pressure (usually in the range of 60/90, often lower)
Bad circulation to head, hands, and feet (neato head rushes when I stand up
too quickly, sometimes even fainting!)
Some sort of hay fever or similar condition (never had allergy testing to
figure out exactly what it is, cause I don't really care)-typically I take
Seldane from March till November or so
Claustrophobia (usually minor, occasional anxiety attacks)
Terminal, paralyzing fear of civil defense sirens (long story)
Prone to dry skin, chapped lips, etc.
Pain in joints, especially knees
Hurm...that about sums it up.
--
Dan Bradshaw, putting the "fun" back in dysfunctional!
Know the rules other people live by. Know them well. Know them in the
same way that terrorists know about cars...
so you know where to put the bombs.
Matthew Brotman
>Matthew Brotman (matt...@li.net) wrote:
>: mon...@netcom.com (monty Kane) wrote:
>: > Most of the arguments for circumcision that I've heard are from
>: >the hygiene viewpoint - it's a pain to keep clean and it gets infections
>: >and stuff. By this reasoning we should all have our teeth pulled as well.
>: One small flaw in "this reasoning":
>: What exactly does the foreskin do that is so important to human survival that
>: it's worth the trouble of maintaining it?
>this is a baffling attitude. now we have to prove that our bodies
>shouldn't be mutilated???! one could say the same thing about the
>clitoris, i suppose. and yet i expect mine to stay right where it is
>until someone can give me a reason why it *shouldn't* be maintained!
>honestly, a foreskin isn't any trouble at all. ask anyone who has one.
>think about it, would you really mind spending a few more seconds cleaning
>mr. winky?
>what exactly does the pinky toe do that is so important to human survival
>that it's worth the trouble of maintaining them? how about earlobes? i
>think the burden of proof is on the people who want to have them ripped
>off. we don't bother removing appendixes or tonsils unless they're an
>actual problem, i think the same should go for the foreskin. in a very
>VERY few cases circumcision is indicated. but it should by no means be a
>casual and automatic procedure.
My point was that teeth have a definite and necessary function, and the cost
of removing them (in human terms, not financial) greatly outweighs the benefit
of eliminating the risk of cavities. There is no comparable cost to
circumcision that outweighs the elimination of the cancer risk. I ask again,
what does the foreskin do? Perhaps in the past it protected the glans from
the elements, but now we have pants for that. So we're talking about a body
part that:
- doesn't do anything useful
- causes a cancer risk
Who needs it?
You called it "mutilation". I don't think it's any more mutilation than
multiple puncture wounds in the earlobes (or anywhere else). As far as pain,
I would imagine cutting the umbilical cord would hurt more. Maybe we should
leave umbilical cords on unless they cause an actual problem.
Furrfu (is that better?)
--
Matt
matt...@li.net http://www.li.net/~matthewb/
"Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine" - Patti Smith
Andrew Onifer
>My point was that teeth have a definite and necessary function, and the cost
>of removing them (in human terms, not financial) greatly outweighs the benefit
>of eliminating the risk of cavities. There is no comparable cost to
>circumcision that outweighs the elimination of the cancer risk.
First of all, only death "eliminates" the risk of cancer. Second, the
chance of cancer is incredibly miniscule to begin with, especially if
you're a non-smoker.
> I ask again,
>what does the foreskin do? Perhaps in the past it protected the glans from
>the elements, but now we have pants for that. So we're talking about a body
>part that:
>- doesn't do anything useful
>- causes a cancer risk
>Who needs it?
Who needs tonsils or an appenidix? For that matter who needs
earlobes? Why don't we have these removed at birth? And while we're
at it, why don't we remove nipples on males at birth, since they serve
no useful purpose and they may or may not have a cancer risk?
I have no problem with a man deciding to get cirumcised, but this idea
that circumcision should be required because foreskin is useless and
may or may not increase the risk for penile cancer is pretty scary, if
you ask me (not that anyone did). And if a woman is so incredibly
worried about getting cervical cancer, maybe she should require her
partner to wear a condom or just not have sex altogether (although if
she smokes or something, I think foreskin may be the least of her
worries).
jay
Aimee Lortskell
: Aimee Lortskell <ai...@saucer.cc.umr.edu> wrote:
[snip]
: >chance. i woulda eaten from the tree of life, too. and instead of being
: >scared, i would have told god to fuck off.
: well, I don't really believe it either; it just sounded like a good
: argument just in case elusis was a closet fundie.
in case WHAT?!? man, she's gonna kick your ass now, even i can't save
you. but i can throw pickles.
: > (mmmm...blasphemy)
: What's blasphemy mean? Can I do some of that too?
heh. oh yeah....want some candy, lil' boy? ;)
Aimee the Whore (leading dave into sin)
--
*--Toriphile---BAAWA!---NINnie--*
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
* stuff IS the issue. - Tori Amos *
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Aimee Lortskell
: Aimee Lortskell <ai...@saucer.cc.umr.edu> wrote:
: >: Hehehehe. I wonder what would have happened if Adam and Eve had just
: >: shell game, eh? ;>
: >he seems like such an overly sensitive guy. i think he'da shit a brick.
: >maybe had a stroke.
: Naaa, he would have fire-and-brimstoned the entire planet, killing
: everything. And then he'd be all lonely and all, so he'd have to go
: through creating everything again and again until finally Adam and Eve
: got it right. God is real into fire and brimstone and salt and floods and
: plagues and other sundry calamaties. O:>
ah, but he never quite goes all the way, does he? if this deity existed,
i don't think he's be omnipotent. i don't think he COULD destroy
everything. he talks the talk, but it's like government. it's only as
powerful as the people under it let it be. i think if jehovah really
existed, we could successfully revolt and kick his sorry ass.
funny how no matter how many times i say that, i never get smote. ;)
Aimee Lortskell
: that abby girl <ab...@nwu.edu> wrote:
: > i thought the current thinking was that almost all mental illnesses
: >were caused by a combination of physical and psychological factors
: Actually, no. Some are, some aren't. Personality disorders, for example,
: do not have a known physiological basis. They result from environmental
: and behavioural factors. I know -- I apparently got one (avoidant p. d.),
: and anti-depressants didn't do a thing for me.
something can have a connection to physiology or genetics and still be
untreatable with drugs or psychosurgery. even stuff that's clearly
physiological in nature like schizophrenia can't *always* be treated with
drugs. there's always a percentage that get no effect or no positive
effect from drugs that do wonders for other patients with the same
disorder. there's a lot of variation. most disorders are suspected to
have *some* physiological or genetic basis, but in many it's indirect or
very slight. and of course psychological and emotional factors also play
a role in physiological conditions. it's just all jumbled in together, i
think.
: Please don't yell at me. :)
sweetie, don't tempt me that way. ;)
but while we're sitting in a big circle bragging about our disorders, i
have dissociative amnesia. big holes in my memory, oh goodie. and while
we're talking about causes and fun stuff like that, the ability to
dissociate is believed to be genetically influenced. but of course drugs
won't do a damn thing for it (and i'm suspicious of hypnosis). right now
i'm really just waiting to see if i get something back, there's no sure
way to trigger it.
Aimee the Whore
--
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
& and when they say, 'take of his body' &
& i think i'll take from mine instead &
& - Tori Amos &
& once i could see...now i am blind &
& - Trent Reznor &
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
Larry Hufstedler
: David B. Goldberger (gold...@riker.neoucom.edu) wrote:
: : Aimee Lortskell <ai...@saucer.cc.umr.edu> wrote:
: : >THOMAS SHEILA MARIE (thom...@ucsub.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
: : >: Hehehehe. I wonder what would have happened if Adam and Eve had just
: : >: stood up to old Yaweh and told him what they thought of his little rigged
: : >: shell game, eh? ;>
: : >he seems like such an overly sensitive guy. i think he'da shit a brick.
: : >maybe had a stroke.
: : Naaa, he would have fire-and-brimstoned the entire planet, killing
: : everything. And then he'd be all lonely and all, so he'd have to go
: : through creating everything again and again until finally Adam and Eve
: : got it right. God is real into fire and brimstone and salt and floods and
: : plagues and other sundry calamaties. O:>
:
: ah, but he never quite goes all the way, does he? if this deity existed,
: i don't think he's be omnipotent. i don't think he COULD destroy
: everything. he talks the talk, but it's like government. it's only as
: powerful as the people under it let it be. i think if jehovah really
: existed, we could successfully revolt and kick his sorry ass.
:
: funny how no matter how many times i say that, i never get smote. ;)
:
: Aimee the Whore
Out of all possible universes, most of them would not support
worshipers. A christian type god could NOT be omnipotent. It would be
subject to the physical laws it created. It can change the laws, but only
at the expense of some of the created things being no longer functional.
The error came when god decided that man should THINK, a trait he long
desired for himself. _Loosely ripped off from The Residents.
--
| Larry Hufstedler | I think the Good Book is missing some pages
| lar...@infi.net | _Tori Amos
Judas
> David B. Goldberger (gold...@riker.neoucom.edu) wrote:
> : Aimee Lortskell <ai...@saucer.cc.umr.edu> wrote:
> : >THOMAS SHEILA MARIE (thom...@ucsub.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
> : Naaa, he would have fire-and-brimstoned the entire planet, killing
> : everything. And then he'd be all lonely and all, so he'd have to go
> : through creating everything again and again until finally Adam and Eve
> : got it right. God is real into fire and brimstone and salt and floods and
> : plagues and other sundry calamaties. O:>
>
> ah, but he never quite goes all the way, does he? if this deity existed,
> i don't think he's be omnipotent. i don't think he COULD destroy
> everything. he talks the talk, but it's like government. it's only as
> powerful as the people under it let it be. i think if jehovah really
> existed, we could successfully revolt and kick his sorry ass.
And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the
face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and
the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
-- Genesis 6:7
Now personally, I dunno if the big J could destroy everything or not...
but I'm not going to challenge him on it for, oh, the next sixty years
or so...
Besides, Yaweh's basically a decent deity. He just needs to switch
to decaf.
-- Judas
(who knows that, if God *did* decide to start another flood, he wouldn't
be one of the people in the Ark....:-/ )
---------------------------------------------------------
|"My concept? You can't do *anything* with anyone's body |
| to make it dirty to me. Six people, eight people, one |
| person - you can do only one thing to make it dirty: |
| kill it." |
| -- Lenny Bruce |
---------------------------------------------------------