Question about fully diminished chords
Zerex71
Just a quick question regarding fully diminished chords - I was
analyzing the key centers in "Desafinado" this weekend (for purposes
of discussion, the Getz version in G major for tenor sax) and
discovered that I could isolate the key centers by following the
standard rules for what chords function as what degrees of what scales
(which is clearly outlined all over the place in numerous resources -
I chose to use my Coker "Patterns For Jazz" book to refer to during
the process). What I found was that pretty much all but three
measures of the tune "belonged" to given key centers. The oddball
ones were a few dim chords that as near as I could discern (as well as
being confirmed by my jazz ensemble instructor) don't really belong to
a given key center. They are color chords and don't necessarily
function as a particular degree of a particular key. What is your
take on this? While I was satisfied with the answers I got that day,
it still leads me to ask all of you your thoughts on the matter.
That leads me to a larger question that I want to write down before I
forget: I find that tune to be interesting because it modulates keys
so often. Do jazz composers just do this because it makes the music
interesting? I guess it still kind of blows my mind that tunes change
keys so often. Does anyone know the rhyme or reason behind why it is
that way on that particular tune?
Thanks for reading,
Mike
LJS
> Greetings,
>
> Just a quick question regarding fully diminished chords - I was
> analyzing the key centers in "Desafinado" this weekend (for purposes
> of discussion, the Getz version in G major for tenor sax) and
> discovered that I could isolate the key centers by following the
> standard rules for what chords function as what degrees of what scales
> (which is clearly outlined all over the place in numerous resources -
> I chose to use my Coker "Patterns For Jazz" book to refer to during
> the process). What I found was that pretty much all but three
> measures of the tune "belonged" to given key centers. The oddball
> ones were a few dim chords that as near as I could discern (as well as
> being confirmed by my jazz ensemble instructor) don't really belong to
> a given key center. They are color chords and don't necessarily
> function as a particular degree of a particular key. What is your
> take on this? While I was satisfied with the answers I got that day,
> it still leads me to ask all of you your thoughts on the matter.
The key phrase here is "don't NECESSARILY function" in truth they do
normally function as what they are and that is an incomplete V9 in the
minor key. The confusion comes that they can function as 4 separate D9
chords. In the key of Cmin, the diminished chord on vii is spelled
BDFAb. All notes taken from the pure form with the raised leading tone
for the dominant (or the Harmonic form) and the note that is left out
is of course the G note which would make it the V9 or actually the
V7-9 or however you like to write it. This chord usually functions as
the dominant and will resolve to Cmin. Sometimes it is used as a color
chord but still as a Dominant function but resolves to the Cmaj or to
the major key. It can be borrowed from the minor to give some color to
the cadence if the composer so desires.
BUT the ambiguity is that it is also an incomplete Bb7-9 and an
incomplete Db7-9 as well as an incomplete Fb or E7-9 chord and can be
used to modulate to Eb, Gb and A (maj or min) as well as its SPELLED
function going to C. Each fully diminished chord has 4 names as vii, 4
names as Incomplete V and functions as Dominant to 4 major and 4 minor
keys. With respelling, there are only 3 different possible diminished
7 chords. This versatility is both its "charm" as a chord for the
composer as well as the "bete noir" for the analyzer.
>
> That leads me to a larger question that I want to write down before I
> forget: I find that tune to be interesting because it modulates keys
> so often. Do jazz composers just do this because it makes the music
> interesting? I guess it still kind of blows my mind that tunes change
> keys so often. Does anyone know the rhyme or reason behind why it is
> that way on that particular tune?
>
> Thanks for reading,
> Mike
Well this depends on your frame of reference. Most pop music doesn't
modulate that much but if you were a churchgoer in the time of Bach,
you would have expected these modulations from the chorales. To answer
your specific questions, you seem to find it interesting and even mind
blowing, so that is a good indication that they might use it for that
effect.
In this particular tune, I would suggest that you make a diagram of
the various keys (in order ) that the tune modulates through ( I use
through instead of "to" because they are really key areas rather then
full classical types of modulations. They just go through the keys and
not necessarily stay on any one in particular, although this tune does
stay in some keys long enough for some to call it a real modulation)
and see if you can see a pattern. A composer will often want to go
through certain key centers and then dress the piece up with 2-5-1's
and other familiar patterns to bind the piece together and provide
easy and interesting opportunities for the soloist to show his stuff.
BTW, Just on a quick look I saw a A maj? chord --> Bbdim7 --.> bmin7 --
> E7 turnaround in the middle of the piece, and this is an example of
the Bb spelling being used instead as the A# spelliing that makes this
diminished chord functional as an incomplete V of the Bmin chord to
set up the 251.
LJS
Zerex71
Interesting insights and thank you! More queestions to come...
Mike
Tom K.
"Zerex71" <mfehe...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1189000796.3...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
> Greetings,
>
> Just a quick question regarding fully diminished chords - I was
> analyzing the key centers in "Desafinado" this weekend (for purposes
> of discussion, the Getz version in G major for tenor sax) and
> discovered that I could isolate the key centers by following the
> standard rules for what chords function as what degrees of what scales
> (which is clearly outlined all over the place in numerous resources -
> I chose to use my Coker "Patterns For Jazz" book to refer to during
> the process). What I found was that pretty much all but three
> measures of the tune "belonged" to given key centers. The oddball
> ones were a few dim chords that as near as I could discern (as well as
> being confirmed by my jazz ensemble instructor) don't really belong to
> a given key center. They are color chords and don't necessarily
> function as a particular degree of a particular key. What is your
> take on this? While I was satisfied with the answers I got that day,
> it still leads me to ask all of you your thoughts on the matter.
>
Mike, if you mean the dim. 7ths that appear in the 6th and 14th measures of
the 2nd ending, they are both viio7 of the next chord:
(Key of G) B Co7 C#m7 F#7 = Temp. key of B: I viio7/ii ii7
V7
and 8 bars later this repeats up a m3rd in the temporary key of D.
The dim chord that appears 9 bars before the end is a bit different as it
has a major 7th in the melody:
(Key of G) Bm7 Bbo(addMa7) A7 = G: iii7 (Passing chord) V7/V
This Bbo with A in the melody could also be interpreted as an A/Bb which
would be the V/V with a passing Bb in the bass. If you hear it as a Bbo7
with the melody note being decorative then it is a dim7 on scale degree b3 -
which is very commonly used as a passing chord in between iii7 and ii7 (in
this case V7/V) so it's really substituting for the expected vi or V/ii.
Hope that helps.
Tom K.
Zerex71
> "Zerex71" <mfeher1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Hi Tom,
I just checked with the chart in front of me, and you are absolutely
correct, of course. I had highlighted in both cases (dim chord
instances 1 and 2) the bracketing key and did not notice that the dim
chord probably had some function relating them. I'm not surprised,
since I am just getting into outlining familiar motions and key
centers.
But I do go back to my original question, since I am very definitely
seeing fully dim., not half-dim., chords in the chart. That means to
me, I cannot assume they are the 7th degree of the local key - only
half-dims can be. However, I suppose it *could* be true, if we assume
(because the lead sheet from the Real Book only shows triads there)
the 7th to be minor, then technically I could have used/seen the rule
of the half-dim being of the 7th degree. Make sense?
Also, I did not cross-check the melody. Again, my thinking is, jazz
composers can make up whatever they want and what sounds pleasing and/
or interesting to them, not necessarily having to follow theory.
Therefore, there is not *necessarily* a guarantee that I could deduce
a chord's function based on a melody line. That is my assertion...
I could scan and email the chart if you are interested in my drivel.
Mike
LJS
>
> I just checked with the chart in front of me, and you are absolutely
> correct, of course. I had highlighted in both cases (dim chord
> instances 1 and 2) the bracketing key and did not notice that the dim
> chord probably had some function relating them. I'm not surprised,
> since I am just getting into outlining familiar motions and key
> centers.
>
> But I do go back to my original question, since I am very definitely
> seeing fully dim., not half-dim., chords in the chart. That means to
> me, I cannot assume they are the 7th degree of the local key - only
> half-dims can be.
half diminished can be either the vii of a major key or the ii in a
minor key. (and some of the liberties that composers take can put
these in both keys if they sub for color effect)
THe full diminished can, remember, be the vii in any of 4 keys. and
then again, either major or minor.
However, I suppose it *could* be true, if we assume
> (because the lead sheet from the Real Book only shows triads there)
> the 7th to be minor, then technically I could have used/seen the rule
> of the half-dim being of the 7th degree. Make sense?
>
> Also, I did not cross-check the melody. Again, my thinking is, jazz
> composers can make up whatever they want and what sounds pleasing and/
> or interesting to them, not necessarily having to follow theory.
> Therefore, there is not *necessarily* a guarantee that I could deduce
> a chord's function based on a melody line. That is my assertion...
It can be difficult, but it is certainly worth considering. Even if
you can't tell primarily from the melody, it is a good way to verify.
You will also see that some very complicated chord structures will
simplify themselves a lot when the melody note is taken into
consideration. The cord symbols usually try to account for the melody
note when in reality it is more of a non harmonic tone, so when you
run across a puzzling structure, be sure to see what it looks like
without the melody note to put it into perspective.
LJS
Joey Goldstein
The only dim7 chords you should be seeing in a good chart for Desafinado
(in F major) are in the bridge:
Amaj7 |A#dim7 |Bm7
and
Cmaj7 |C#dim7 |Dm7
Both of these dim7 instances are analyzed as #Idim7 (the former in the
key of A major and the latter in the key of C major) but are functioning
as V7b9/IIm.
I.e. A#dim7 is really F#7b9 in 1st inversion.
C#dim7 is really A7b9 in 1st inversion.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/joeygoldstein
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
Tom K.
>
> Hi Tom,
>
> I just checked with the chart in front of me, and you are absolutely
> correct, of course. I had highlighted in both cases (dim chord
> instances 1 and 2) the bracketing key and did not notice that the dim
> chord probably had some function relating them. I'm not surprised,
> since I am just getting into outlining familiar motions and key
> centers.
>
> But I do go back to my original question, since I am very definitely
> seeing fully dim., not half-dim., chords in the chart. That means to
> me, I cannot assume they are the 7th degree of the local key - only
> half-dims can be. However, I suppose it *could* be true, if we assume
> (because the lead sheet from the Real Book only shows triads there)
> the 7th to be minor, then technically I could have used/seen the rule
> of the half-dim being of the 7th degree. Make sense?
Mike, that's one of the problems with diminished chords, especially in jazz
charts. They can be triads, half-dim., fully dim. or even V9 chords missing
the root - and the creators of the lead sheets may or may not be accurate
and performances may vary!
At any rate, while the half-dim. normally functions as a vii7 of a major key
(or chord), the fully dim. may be "borrowed" from the minor mode. In other
words, it's very common to see a bo7 in C major in both classical and
pop/jazz styles. By the same token, that fully dim. can approach a major
chord as a secondary leading tone such as bo to C in the key of G as a
viio7/V to V.
> Also, I did not cross-check the melody. Again, my thinking is, jazz
> composers can make up whatever they want and what sounds pleasing and/
> or interesting to them, not necessarily having to follow theory.
> Therefore, there is not *necessarily* a guarantee that I could deduce
> a chord's function based on a melody line. That is my assertion...
Well, most often theory follows practice so perhaps it's our job to figure
out why it sounds pleasing! But I agree that the melody note may or may
not be a chord member, depending on context.
> I could scan and email the chart if you are interested in my drivel.
>
I used the Real Book 1 chart in F and transposed the chords. Since I have
many of the fake books, can you let me know which one you got the chart
from?Or, if you can indicate which diminished chords are used in each
measure and the chords which precede and follow them, perhaps I can help.
Tom K.
Joey Goldstein
VIIdim7 is a diatonic chord in minor keys.
It is derived from the tertian chord formed on scale degree 7 of the
harmonic minor scale.
This is the only instance of a dim7 chord existing within the maj/min
scale system.
Zerex71
> "Zerex71" <mfeher1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Hi Tom,
I got mine out of a C Real Book, edition unknown since it's not in
front of me at the moment. However, Joey pointed out the sequences
that I recall from looking at the chart last night, and my copy was
transcribed to G from the F it's printed as in the book.
Mike
Joey Goldstein
The bIIIdim7 chord in the original RB Desfinado chart (Abdim7 in F), 9
bars from the end, is wrong.
It should be VIm7 or V7/II (Dm7 or G7 in F).
Due to the popularity of the orig RB lots of people do play bIIIdim7 though.
Unlike #Idim7 this chord can not be seen as being functionally
equivalent to a secondary dominant.
It is looked at as chromatic approach chord linking two diatonic chords
together usually IIIm7 and IIm7. (Eg. IIIm7 bIIIdim7 IIm7)
In the case of this tune it arrives at II7 (aka V7/V) rather than IIm7.
Tom K.
>> > Also, I did not cross-check the melody. Again, my thinking is, jazz
>> > composers can make up whatever they want and what sounds pleasing and/
>> > or interesting to them, not necessarily having to follow theory.
>> > Therefore, there is not *necessarily* a guarantee that I could deduce
>> > a chord's function based on a melody line. That is my assertion...
>>
>> Well, most often theory follows practice so perhaps it's our job to
>> figure
>> out why it sounds pleasing! But I agree that the melody note may or may
>> not be a chord member, depending on context.
>>
>> > I could scan and email the chart if you are interested in my drivel.
>>
>> I used the Real Book 1 chart in F and transposed the chords. Since I
>> have
>> many of the fake books, can you let me know which one you got the chart
>> from?Or, if you can indicate which diminished chords are used in each
>> measure and the chords which precede and follow them, perhaps I can help.
>>
>> Tom K.
>
> Hi Tom,
>
> I got mine out of a C Real Book, edition unknown since it's not in
> front of me at the moment. However, Joey pointed out the sequences
> that I recall from looking at the chart last night, and my copy was
> transcribed to G from the F it's printed as in the book.
>
> Mike
>
Right, those are the first ones I mentioned in my first post (transposed up
to G from F).
Tom K.
Tom K.
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:fbp18c$7kf$1...@news.datemas.de...
>>
>
> The bIIIdim7 chord in the original RB Desfinado chart (Abdim7 in F), 9
> bars from the end, is wrong.
> It should be VIm7 or V7/II (Dm7 or G7 in F).
> Due to the popularity of the orig RB lots of people do play bIIIdim7
> though.
>
Joey, do you recall what Charlie Byrd played on the original recording at
this point? Or was there an "approved" chart published at the time with the
correct chord?
> Unlike #Idim7 this chord can not be seen as being functionally equivalent
> to a secondary dominant.
> It is looked at as chromatic approach chord linking two diatonic chords
> together usually IIIm7 and IIm7. (Eg. IIIm7 bIIIdim7 IIm7)
> In the case of this tune it arrives at II7 (aka V7/V) rather than IIm7.
>
That's what I indicated in my first post - my term was a "passing chord"
between iii and ii. Or, because of the melodic G, it could be heard as a G
chord (similar to the next bar) with a passing Ab in the bass.
If the biii dim7 comes between ii and iii (#iio7), it is viio7/iii, but if
the retrograde happens, it is passing (decorative).
Tom K.
LJS
> joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
It is ONLY diatonic in the Harmonic Form of the Minor. (should be Key,
not Keys)
Zerex71
That reminds me - in the Getz/[unknown guitarist] recording I have
(one of four total copies of the song, all in different keys, whoever
is playing guitar sounds...really lousy. On top of it, his solo just
drops out in the middle of the chorus or something. Even I picked up
on it. It's bizarre and made it a bit difficult to follow exactly
when Getz comes back in. I'm going to try and listen to it and
practice to it more this weekend to see if I can make some sense of
what's going on.
Zerex71
I have another question now - why does everyone assume some these
chords are substitutions or secondary dominants?
To wit: As I'm analyzing charts, I have a set of rules telling me what
chords function as what scale degrees. I should be able to highlight
(yes, with a marker) each tonal center for the period of time it's in
effect before it modulates. I only saw dim triads, not 7ths. I had
no given rule to decipher them, hence my original questions. But all
this "it's the 8th of 6" and V/V and all that - I don't buy it. I see
nothing wrong with a chord just being what it is and being a color
chord to liven things up. If I'm looking at a chord, according to
some of the things I'm seeing here, *every* chord could be a
substitution or a secondary, and that wouldn't make things any easier
when trying simplify the tune.
Joey Goldstein
> > joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
>
> It is ONLY diatonic in the Harmonic Form of the Minor. (should be Key,
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks for trying to correct me, even if you're nit picking.
But once again, you're wrong.
LJS
Tom,
A small point, but Re: #i dim vs biii dim either going to a ii chord
This is really a nit picking detail, but since it has already been nit
picked, I feel I need to clarify something.
When you PLAY either of these chords and you then go to the a ii
chord, it IS functional. You may mis name the biii chord, or you may
mis spell it or you may mis analyze it, but when you PLAY it, the
sound is functional. Anyone that hears what you have PLAYED, will know
that it is functional and the correct name and spelling should be that
of a #i dim7. the same is true if a natiii dim7 (depending on how
you want to call this chord) or a v dim7. They are all the same chord.
Many composers, editors and musicians would rather say Bb than A# and
when things are written out they will usually choose the spelling that
is the easiest to read no matter what the functional spelling should
be. The fact is that anyone that notices that it is not spelled
correctly will usually have had music theory and will realize what
what is going on. In both Jazz and a lot of classical musical settings
the spelling of this chord is often chosen for clarity rather than
function. Don't loose any sleep over it, if you know how it is used
and you understand the voice leading, everything is fine.
LJS
Tom K.
Diminished triads and half-diminished 7ths have two functions: as iio (from
the minor mode - also used in major) or viio (used in both minor or major;
except for the half-dim vii07 which is used in major only). So if the root
resolves up a P4th, it's a ii and if the root resolves up a m2nd, it's a
viio. Since viio is a type of dominant, that is why the term secondary
dominant is used as it includes the "secondary leading tone" function.
If the dim. chord is in another context, then it is decorative - what you
are calling a "color" chord. In Desifinado, the dim 7ths built on scale
degree 1# are functional viio/ii chords, as Joey & I indicated. The last
example (with the maj. 7th in the melody) was a decorative chord.
Another typical decorative use would be (key of C): F - Co7 - C. The Co7
would be a passing, or perhaps appoggiatura, chord here and is often
described as a "common tone diminished 7th" as it shares it's root with the
chord that it is decorating.
Tom K.
LJS
You can of course see things that way. BUT if it Looks like a
functional chord and it Sounds like a functional chord and it Moves
like a functional chord Well... Quack, Quack!
Of course you are correct that in these cases the composer may have
chosen this particular version of the dominant function because of its
particular color, but it is still (in these cases) a functional chord
and thus is either a leading tone or an incomplete V9
LJS
Tom K.
"LJS" <ljsc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1189099217.6...@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
I think you've missed something here. In C, the #io7 (C#o7) is viio7/ii and
functional when going to Dm. But the enharmonic equivalent is bii (Dbo7),
not biiio7. This chord (Ebo7/D#o7) functions (enharmonically) as viio7/iii,
viio7/V, viio7/bVII, or viio7/bII - so when it moves to ii, it is
decorative.
In other words, Ebo7/D#o7 is not a re-spelling of C#o7 and is linear when
moving down to ii. The fact that it is commonly used in pop styles doesn't
make it functional, just as a cadential 6/4 (commonly used in all tonal
styles) is not a functional I.
Tom K.
Tom K
LJS
Well of course I am Joey. Everyone knows that. The pure form has it.
oops, maybe that is the melodic form,,, oops. well I guess then you
mean the C melodic minor, and the C# melodic minor and the D melodic
minor etc.
LJS
Mike A
<...>
> I have another question now - why does everyone assume some these
> chords are substitutions or secondary dominants?
>
> To wit: As I'm analyzing charts, I have a set of rules telling me what
> chords function as what scale degrees. I should be able to highlight
> (yes, with a marker) each tonal center for the period of time it's in
> effect before it modulates. I only saw dim triads, not 7ths. I had
> no given rule to decipher them, hence my original questions. But all
> this "it's the 8th of 6" and V/V and all that - I don't buy it. I see
> nothing wrong with a chord just being what it is and being a color
> chord to liven things up. If I'm looking at a chord, according to
> some of the things I'm seeing here, *every* chord could be a
> substitution or a secondary, and that wouldn't make things any easier
> when trying simplify the tune.
>
Hi Mike,
I'm sure this is overly simplistic, and others may jump in with
corrections and amplifications (possibly denunciations), but for what it's
worth I've found the following to be useful in the jazz context:
There are only three unique dim7 chords, because dim7 chords are
4-note chords that symmetrically divide the 12-note chromatic scale. (Any
given dim7 can be named with any one of its four notes as the root,
depending on context, but those four differently-named dim7 chords include
the same four notes. The root naming of dim7 chords in jazz seems to be
primarily a function of desired bass voice-leading.)
All of the interior intervals in a dim7 are minor thirds. As a
result, one and only one of the following statements is true with respect to
any given dim7 chord and the chord that follows it, and can be used to
categorize the dim7:
- Category 1: The dim7 includes the note that is a semitone
BELOW the root of the chord that follows.
- Category 2: The dim7 includes the note that is a semitone
ABOVE the root of the chord that follows.
- Category 3: The dim7 includes the note that is the SAME as the
root of the chord that follows.
There are no other possibilities. Very often the specified
"root" of the dim7 chord IS the note that is a semitone below, a semitone
above, or the same as the root of the subsequent chord, but not always. For
purposes of this simplistic approach, it doesn't matter whether it's the
root.
I've found that *most* of the time, it works to think of those
three possible dim7s as playing the following roles, respectively:
- Category 1 (dim7 includes semitone BELOW root of following
chord): The dim7 is functioning as a "disguised" or "incomplete" or
"rootless" V7b9 (secondary dominant) of the chord that follows. Example:
Cma7, C#dim7, Dm7, G7, Cma7. The C#dim7 functions as a rootless voicing of
A7b9 ([A]-C#-E-G-Bb), the V7b9 chord with respect to Dm, a secondary
dominant.
- Category 2 (dim7 includes semitone ABOVE root of following
chord): The dim7 is a passing (aka "chromatic approach") chord that connects
the chord that precedes it with the chord that follows it. Example: Em7,
D#dim7 (or Ebdim7), Dm7, Db7, Cma7.
- Category 3 (dim7 includes note that is SAME as root of
following chord): The dim7 is a decoration of, and pleasingly delays the
resolution to, the chord that follows. Example: Dm7, G7b9, Cdim7, Cma7.
My understanding is that only in Category 1 is the dim7
considered a "functional" harmony chord (i.e., circle-of-fifths motion). In
Categories 2 and 3 it's "non-functional," in that sense.
Anyway, this approach has been useful for me in getting a handle
on dim7s. YMMV.
Tom K.
"Mike A" <MikeA@...> wrote in message
news:0eZDi.72408$ax1....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Root movement up a half step = functional viio7 (or incomplete V9)
Root movement down a half step = passing chord
No root movement = "Common Tone Dim.7" also decorative (non-functional)
Tom K.
I'd only add that enharmonic spellings are commonplace.
Tom K.
Joey Goldstein
>From your comments I can only concluse that:
1. You do not understand the meaning of the word "diatonic" as it is
used by musicians in sentences such as "This chord is diatonic to
this key."
and
2. You do not understand the meaning of "key".
and
3. You have little or no comprehension when you read English. The
following sentence for example: "It is derived from the tertian chord
formed on scale degree 7 of the harmonic minor scale."
or
You have a short term memory problem that prohibits your brain from
retaining the meaning of sentences such as the above after you have
read them.
and
4. You really are an idiot.
LJS
> "LJS" <ljsche...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Tom,
I didn't miss it. That is what I was pointing out. They are all the
same chord no matter what you name them. It was in response to someone
saying that the biii dim7 was a wrong chord that many people played
and it was really should be played as a #i dim7 !!! They are of course
all the same chord when you play them, and they are often mis labeled
from a functional point of view to make them more readable.
LJS
Tom K.
Try again, LJ. The #io7 is not the same as the biiio7. The two chords do
not share any pitch-classes. You must be thinking of the diminished 7ths
built on scale degrees ^1 and ^b3, not ^#1 and ^b3.
Tom K.
LJS
Joey, you are just so cute and predictable.
So what are the keys that it is diatonic to? I see that you left that
out again
You have retained the stupid slurs but you forgot to add the
profanity.
And you can write those 4 statements,
miss the clear reference to the statement
> > > > > VIIdim7 is a diatonic chord in minor keys.
as you talk about my not understanding what is written and....
Who is it that is the idiot!
You are just too, too easy Joey.
LJS
Joey Goldstein
> "Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
> news:fbp18c$7kf$1...@news.datemas.de...
>> The bIIIdim7 chord in the original RB Desfinado chart (Abdim7 in F), 9
>> bars from the end, is wrong.
>> It should be VIm7 or V7/II (Dm7 or G7 in F).
>> Due to the popularity of the orig RB lots of people do play bIIIdim7
>> though.
>>
>
> Joey, do you recall what Charlie Byrd played on the original recording at
> this point?
Not really.
> Or was there an "approved" chart published at the time with the
> correct chord?
I put my trust in the New Real Book series, by Chuck Sher.
I've found very few mistakes in his fakebooks and he does lots of
research on the tunes.
>> Unlike #Idim7 this chord can not be seen as being functionally equivalent
>> to a secondary dominant.
>> It is looked at as chromatic approach chord linking two diatonic chords
>> together usually IIIm7 and IIm7. (Eg. IIIm7 bIIIdim7 IIm7)
>> In the case of this tune it arrives at II7 (aka V7/V) rather than IIm7.
>>
>
> That's what I indicated in my first post - my term was a "passing chord"
> between iii and ii. Or, because of the melodic G, it could be heard as a G
> chord (similar to the next bar) with a passing Ab in the bass.
>
> If the biii dim7 comes between ii and iii (#iio7), it is viio7/iii, but if
> the retrograde happens, it is passing (decorative).
>
> Tom K.
>
>
Joey Goldstein
C:
I V7/IIm IIm7 V7 I
C |A7b9 |Dm7 G7 |C
A7 is performing a dominant function in the key of D minor. It's really
a brief key change to the key of D minor, but it doesn't last long
enough to be taken as a bona fide key change. V7/IIm ("V7 of IIm") is
what is called a "secondary dominant chord". The key of D minor is a
"secondary key" here while the key of C major remains the "primary key".
C:
I #Idim7 IIm7 V7 I
C |C#dim7 |Dm7 G7 |C
The C#dim7 here performs the exact same harmonic function as the A7b9 in
the above example. It is analyzed as #Idim7 but its function is the same
as that of V7/IIm in 1st inversion.
A7b9 = A C# E G Bb
C#dim7 = C E G Bb
A7b9 = C#dim7/A
C#dim7 = A7b9(noRoot)/C#
The two chords are too similar, when they function the same way, to be
considered all that different from one another.
If you play these two progressions on piano or guitar you should be able
hear why it is that they are treated as essentially the same progression.
Joey Goldstein
That's a real good ay of looking at it.
I've never actually seen it described that way. I think I'll it! Thanks.
Joey Goldstein
> Tom,
> A small point, but Re: #i dim vs biii dim either going to a ii chord
>
> This is really a nit picking detail, but since it has already been nit
> picked, I feel I need to clarify something.
>
> When you PLAY either of these chords and you then go to the a ii
> chord, it IS functional. You may mis name the biii chord, or you may
> mis spell it or you may mis analyze it, but when you PLAY it, the
> sound is functional. Anyone that hears what you have PLAYED, will know
> that it is functional and the correct name and spelling should be that
> of a #i dim7. the same is true if a natiii dim7 (depending on how
> you want to call this chord) or a v dim7. They are all the same chord.
> Many composers, editors and musicians would rather say Bb than A# and
> when things are written out they will usually choose the spelling that
> is the easiest to read no matter what the functional spelling should
> be. The fact is that anyone that notices that it is not spelled
> correctly will usually have had music theory and will realize what
> what is going on. In both Jazz and a lot of classical musical settings
> the spelling of this chord is often chosen for clarity rather than
> function. Don't loose any sleep over it, if you know how it is used
> and you understand the voice leading, everything is fine.
> LJS
>
Let's all add "functional" to the increasingly large list of musical
terms that LJS does not understand.
Joey Goldstein
> Joey, you are just so cute and predictable.
Wrong again.
> So what are the keys that it is diatonic to?
VIIdim7 is diatonic to every minor key in which it happens to occur.
> I see that you left that
> out again
> You have retained the stupid slurs but you forgot to add the
> profanity.
Fuck off, dimwit.
> And you can write those 4 statements,
> miss the clear reference to the statement
>>>>>> VIIdim7 is a diatonic chord in minor keys.
I caught the reference. And your attempted criticism of what the
sentence says is wrong, as always.
VIIdim7 *is* a diatonic chord in minor *keys*, all of them.
> as you talk about my not understanding what is written and....
You don't.
> Who is it that is the idiot!
You are.
Zerex71
> "Zerex71" <mfeher1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Hi Mike,
That's the best explanation I've seen yet! Thanks so much for chiming
in. That's the kind of explanation I was seeking.
Mike
Joey Goldstein
As I think about your Category #2 though it may get a bit fuzzy.
Sometimes Bbdim7 will move to A7, and functionally they're both really
the same chord. You really need to see where the A7 resolves to in order
to make a decent analysis.
Also...Sometimes the root of a dim7 is approached and/or left by a leap
rather than a 1/2 step.
In the case of leaving the supposed, or the notated root, of a dim7
chord by a lap is concerned, it's true that the following chord will
reveal one of the 1/2 relationships you cite or the common tone
relationship.
But
C / Ebdim7 / |Dm7 / G7 / |C
doesn't really fit your #2 (because the two roots being joined are not
being bridged with a chromatic passing tone) at least not to the letter
with the way you've laid it out.
Joey Goldstein
> In the case of leaving the supposed, or the notated root, of a dim7
> chord by a lap is concerned, it's true that the following chord will
> reveal one of the 1/2 relationships you cite or the common tone
> relationship.
Let me try that again:
In the case of leaving the supposed, or the notated root, of a dim7
chord by a leap is concerned...
It's true that the following chord's root will reveal one of the 1/2
step relationships you cite (in categories 1 & 2) or the common tone
relationship (cat 3) with the real root of the dim7 chord.
Actually...Y'know what?
Strike this whole comment.
Leaving the root of a dim7 chord by a leap is covered perfectly well
under your Categories 1 and 2.
My bad. Quite bad actually.
Leaping *to* the root of a dim7 chord is covered too, I think.
I'd better think of this some more before I open my mouth again!
My other comments stand.... I think?
Mike A
> Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
<...> I'd better think of this some more <...>
Thanks Joey. Any refinements will be much appreciated.
¤ Alias
I haven't looked at "Desifinado" in a few years, and was always curious
about the G7b5 chord. (the original "real" Real Book - in F)
Looking at it now, it struck me that, what a 7b5 chord really seems to be
is two dominant 7th chords in one. What I mean by that is that it seems to
be a Db dominant 7th (Db, F, Cb, Db, or for the guitarists in here, x4342x)
with the root displaced by the tritone below - so you now have G, F, B,
Db. 3x342x. So it's kind of like having a dominant 7th and it's tritone
substitution all wrapped up in one chord. And it can resolve either way. I
was playing around with it and started to hear it resolving to Gb, and I
looked further ahead and saw the GbMaj7 in mm. 15-16.
I took this as confirmation of the fact.
Danny
Steve Latham
"¤ Alias" <.~^@^~.> wrote in message
news:cvf1e3pj6ia5kq4v9...@4ax.com...
>
And it can resolve either way.
Or, for something that may not seem as symmetrical as fully diminished, or
that doesn't seem to be able to resolve to four different points, consider
the following:
G# B D F#
Move G# up a half step, and F# down a 1/2
A B D F
Move the notes that are a M2 apart again:
Ab C D F
ditto (enharmonic shift for simplicity)
Ab Cb Eb F
-------------
G# B D# E#
ditto
G# B D F#
where we began.
Something there?
Steve
¤ Alias
wrote:
Yeah, 'something'.
It's cool, but what is it exactly?
Is it something to do with the Tristan chord?
Danny
LJS
You are correct Tom, I looked at the examples too quickly and was
thinking in two different keys. I was looking at another question and
mixed up the numbers. I was referring to the bridge with the Bbdim
chord being mis named as it should be an A#dim7 for functionality and
was not looking at the printed Abdim in the ending. Sorry if my
mistake confused anyone.
So, please consider it off topic and apply the statement to the vii,
ii, iv, bvi chords instead. (I have got to speak with my editor!)
thanks for pointing out the error.
LJS
LJS
> joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
There, I knew you would profanely add to that response. Who is the
only one in the group that has to resort to this kind of language? You
are too easy.
Let, me see, so diatonic now means to alter notes to fit your
statement.
A B C D E F G A ( no dim7 there)
but it does exist in the Harmonic and the Ascending form of the
Melodic. Not In ALL minor keys. Only in the altered forms of the minor
to create the functional leading tone.
LJS
> joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
oops!
Now that is actually a great improvement! We all make mistakes. It
does show, however, (as does some of the latest posts) that you are
starting to try to actually read the posts and answer the question
that has been asked. Maybe your obsession with hating me is having
some positive effect after all!!
Joey Goldstein
I won't tell you what "diatonic" means. You'll have to look it up and
hang out with some musicians and see how they use the word.
But as far as a dim7 chord existing within the mel min ascending scale,
you're wrong, AGAIN.
Speaking of being wrong....
You didn't even know that #Idim7 and bIIIdim7 are different chords.
Yikes. And you "teach" people?
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
Joey Goldstein
Joey Goldstein
Nice try.
But what you said had nothing to do with transposing or enharmonics or
any of the bullshit you are trying to use to disguise that you simply
don't know what you are talking about. You said that bIIIdim7 and #Idim7
were the same chord. How anybody who has supposedly taken so many
"advanced theory courses" as you could make a mistake like that is
beyond me.
> So, please consider it off topic and apply the statement to the vii,
> ii, iv, bvi chords instead.
None of those chords are enharmonically equivalent to either #Idim7 or
bIIIdim7.
These chords are almost totally off topic and irrelevant to this
discussion. The only conceivable reason that you would bring these
particular chords up now is that you don't know what the hell you or we
are talking about.
Sheesh.
> (I have got to speak with my editor!)
> thanks for pointing out the error.
> LJS
>
Tom K.
"¤ Alias" <.~^@^~.> wrote in message
news:cvf1e3pj6ia5kq4v9...@4ax.com...
>
>
parlance as a "French Augmented 6th"). Having an ascending interval
structure (in semitones) of 3,3,3,3, the fully diminished 7th we've been
discussing is totally symmetrical, so each one has 4 possible roots and
there are only 3 distinct o7 chords.
The V7b5 has an interval structure of 4,2,4,2 (also having two tritones like
the o7) and has 2 possible roots so there are only 6 distinct 7b5 chords.
And, as you pointed out since the 2 possible roots are a tritone apart, the
V7b5 and it's tritone sub are simply inversions of one another. Yet another
characteristic which contributes to the unique sound of this chord, is the
fact that all of it's pitches come from the same whole-tone scale (another
totally symmetrical structure), a property shared only with the (fairly
uncommon) augmented triad or V7(#5).
Another somewhat related chord is the V9(#11) which combines a tritone sub
9(#11) with a V(#5, b9), although it usually functions only as the tritone
sub. It contains 5 of the 6 tones of one whole-tone scale, along with one
tone from the other .
Tom K.
Steve Latham
"¤ Alias" <.~^@^~.> wrote in message
Maybe, maybe not. Play with it a little bit. Or:
E G A C#
E F# A# C#
Eb G Bb Db
E G Bb C
:-)
Steve
Joey Goldstein
>
> I haven't looked at "Desifinado" in a few years, and was always curious
> about the G7b5 chord. (the original "real" Real Book - in F)
>
> Looking at it now, it struck me that, what a 7b5 chord really seems to be
> is two dominant 7th chords in one.
G7b5 and Db7b5 have the same 4 tones, enharmonically.
G7b5 = G B Db F
Db7b5 = Db F Abb Cb
Abb = G
Cb = B
> What I mean by that is that it seems to
> be a Db dominant 7th (Db, F, Cb, Db, or for the guitarists in here, x4342x)
> with the root displaced by the tritone below - so you now have G, F, B,
> Db. 3x342x.
Db7(no5th)/G = G7b5
> So it's kind of like having a dominant 7th and it's tritone
> substitution all wrapped up in one chord.
Sort of, yes.
> And it can resolve either way.
Any dom7 can resolve either way, at least in jazz harmony it can.
> I
> was playing around with it and started to hear it resolving to Gb, and I
> looked further ahead and saw the GbMaj7 in mm. 15-16.
That's G7b9 moving to Gbmaj7, not G7b5.
> I took this as confirmation of the fact.
It confirms that any dom7 chord can usually move successfully to a chord
whose root is either a P5th below the dom7 chord's root or a min 2nd
below the dom7 chord's root.
Doesn't say much about dom7b5 chords really though.
The 1st 4 bars of Desafinado are harmonically identical to the 1st 4
bars of Ellington's Take The A Train. Since A Train, V7/V (aka II7) with
a b5 or #11 has been quite common in jazz harmony.
Something that needs to be understood, IMO about this sound is the way
that scale degree b6 of the key (the b5/#11 of II7) is treated and
resolved. In the key of F, scale degree b6 is Db.
Scale degree b6, when it occurs in major keys, is usually an indicator
of what is called "subdominant minor" harmony, i.e. the characteristic
sound of IVm which is borrowed from the subdominant area of the parallel
minor key. As such it has a marked tendency to resolve down by 1/2 step
to the dominant (scale degree 5) of the key.
But when this same tone appears as a color tone on V7/V it has much more
ambiguity and can resolve upward by 1/2 step to the submediant (scale
degree 6) of the key just as successfully as it can resolve downward by
1/2 step.
F | |Bbm | |F
The Db in the Bbm chord wants strongly to resolve down by 1/2 step to to
a chord that contains a C, like Fmaj. A chord containing D nat (like
Gm7) is also possible here but would impart a somewhat regressive
feeling rather than a progressive feeling.
F | |G7b5 | |Gm7
The Db in G7b5 can go either way. In this case, it resolves upward by
1/2 step to the D in Gm7.
As such it's really more like a C# than a Db, and G7#11 might be a
better chord symbol for this sound.
But many writers like there to be no P5th present in the voicings of
these chords so they opt for "G7b5" rather than the more wordy
"G7#11(no5th)".
Just some stuff to consider.
Joey Goldstein
> F | |Bbm | |F
> The Db in the Bbm chord wants strongly to resolve down by 1/2 step to to
> a chord that contains a C, like Fmaj. A chord containing D nat (like
> Gm7) is also possible here but would impart a somewhat regressive
> feeling rather than a progressive feeling.
Actually, I can't really stand by that statement, about the "regressive"
quality of scale degree b6 resolving upwards. Bad choice of words, and a
bad description of what's happening.
Let's just say that most of the time, statistically speaking, when scale
degree b6 occurs as part of a subdominant minor structure we tend to
expect it to resolve downward by 1/2 step.
And when Sb6 occurs within V7/V (as b5 or #11 of the chord) this
expectation of a downward resolution is a somewhat less strongly felt.
Steve Latham
>
> Any dom7 can resolve either way, at least in jazz harmony it can.
>
> whose root is either a P5th below the dom7 chord's root or a min 2nd below
> the dom7 chord's root.
>
Or, we could say:
G7 - C
G7 - cm
G7 - Ab
G7 - am
G7 (as Ger+6) - F# ( a dominant 7, but functionally dominant prep)
G7 (as tritone sub) - F# too (these two concepts are obviously related,
though could be seen as separate)
G7 - D as in IV7 - I - a form of "+6" resolution where the +6 (G B D E#)
moves up a half step (to D A D F# for example). Another dominant 7 in
"non-dominant" function (plagal? dominant substitute?).
Note if you replace G7 with Db 7 above, G7 - Ab = Db7 - Ab tritone sub, but
produces a transposition of this last IV7 - I example.
How does Db7 to am sound :-)
So I'd consider all of those above "resolutions".
G7 - A7 would happen if modulating from C to dm, so I don't know if it's
"resolving", but it's V7 in C as a common chord as IV7 in dm, moving to V in
dm. If it were IV7-V7 in D, I might just consider it constant structure
harmony instead of "resolving" per se.
Just something to consider.
Steve
Steve Latham
> Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
>> F | |Bbm | |F
>> The Db in the Bbm chord wants strongly to resolve down by 1/2 step to to
>> a chord that contains a C, like Fmaj. A chord containing D nat (like Gm7)
>> is also possible here but would impart a somewhat regressive feeling
>> rather than a progressive feeling.
>
> Actually, I can't really stand by that statement, about the "regressive"
> quality of scale degree b6 resolving upwards. Bad choice of words, and a
> bad description of what's happening.
>
> Let's just say that most of the time, statistically speaking, when scale
> degree b6 occurs as part of a subdominant minor structure we tend to
> expect it to resolve downward by 1/2 step.
> And when Sb6 occurs within V7/V (as b5 or #11 of the chord) this
> expectation of a downward resolution is a somewhat less strongly felt.
>
A note: it's similar to how B is the leading tone in C, and acts as such in
a V chord. But in a iii chord (EGB) that upward resolution is less strongly
felt - it's ambivalent. Furthermore, CM7 (in CPP harmony) makes the B want
to go down instead, completely negating the LT function.
We might think of b6 as an "un-leading tone" that pulls down to 5 in
pre-dominant function harmonies, but in other harmonies (with less
pre-dominant function, or whose pre-dominant function has been lessened or
altered in some way) the "un-leading-tone-ness" of b6 can be lessened, or
counteracted altogether.
Later,
Steve
Tom K.
"Steve Latham" <lla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:DkgEi.25$bf1.22@trnddc04...
Miles Davis' Half Nelson uses the equivalent of Dm7 - G7 - A (mm 5-6) as a
deceptive resolution of ii7/bIII - V7/bIII - I (I being a major inflected VI
of bIII). (Although it might also be argued that the V7/bIII is being used
as a IV/iv here.)
Another possibility, G7 - Abm probably occurs in Wagner, but that's getting
out of the tonal period.
Personally, I tend to think of them simply as deceptive dominant
resolutions - up a 2nd (either major or minor) to either a major or minor
chord.
And finally, in his Mazurka # 43, Chopin writes a Gb7 to a C7 as a Ger6 to
V7 interrupted (decorated) by a V7/V in Bb. Since there is no change of
function, I wouldn't classify this one with the possibilities you gave, but
it's interesting for the 1840s!
Tom K.
Tom K.
Miles Davis' Half Nelson uses the equivalent of Dm7 - G7 - A (mm 5-6) as a
LJS
> LJS wrote:
> > On Sep 6, 6:45 pm, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> >> LJS wrote:
> >>> Joey, you are just so cute and predictable.
> >> Wrong again.
>
> >>> So what are the keys that it is diatonic to?
> >> VIIdim7 is diatonic to every minor key in which it happens to occur.
>
> >>> I see that you left that
> >>> out again
> >>> You have retained the stupid slurs but you forgot to add the
> >>> profanity.
> >> Fuck off, dimwit.
>
> >>> And you can write those 4 statements,
> >>> miss the clear reference to the statement
> >>>>>>>> VIIdim7 is a diatonic chord in minor keys.
> >> I caught the reference. And your attempted criticism of what the
> >> sentence says is wrong, as always.
> >> VIIdim7 *is* a diatonic chord in minor *keys*, all of them.
>
> >>> as you talk about my not understanding what is written and....
> >> You don't.
>
> >>> Who is it that is the idiot!
> >> You are.
>
> >> --
> >> joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
>
> > There, I knew you would profanely add to that response. Who is the
> > only one in the group that has to resort to this kind of language? You
> > are too easy.
>
> > Let, me see, so diatonic now means to alter notes to fit your
> > statement.
> > A B C D E F G A ( no dim7 there)
>
> > but it does exist in the Harmonic and the Ascending form of the
> > Melodic. Not In ALL minor keys. Only in the altered forms of the minor
> > to create the functional leading tone.
>
> I won't tell you what "diatonic" means. You'll have to look it up and
> hang out with some musicians and see how they use the word.
>
> But as far as a dim7 chord existing within the mel min ascending scale,
> you're wrong, AGAIN.
> Speaking of being wrong....
> You didn't even know that #Idim7 and bIIIdim7 are different chords.
> Yikes. And you "teach" people?
>
> --
> Joey Goldsteinhttp://www.joeygoldstein.comhttp://www.soundclick.com/bands/joeygoldstein
> joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
AHA! you fell for it again! Like I originally said in the simple
correction of the wording of your statement that you once again blew
our of proportion, it ONLY is diatonic to the Harmonic minor scale.
NOT to the minor SCALES. It was a very simple correction of your
grammer and you have once again proven that you really don't either
read stuff or you make up stuff.
I know what diatonic means. I don't know what you mean by it, maybe
some ancient Greek meaning or something. You can probably find
something in Wiki to support your claims. BUT this has to stop. I am
getting too many private e-mails of people saying that they are tired
of your inane writings about the things that you don't know about and
wishing that you would stick to what you don't know and they are tired
of your slurs and BS in general.
I may have to stop having fun with you.
Sorry Joey.
LJS
LJS
> LJS wrote:
> > On Sep 6, 9:54 pm, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> >> Joey Goldstein wrote:
> >>> In the case of leaving the supposed, or the notated root, of a dim7
> >>> chord by a lap is concerned, it's true that the following chord will
> >>> reveal one of the 1/2 relationships you cite or the common tone
> >>> relationship.
> >> Let me try that again:
> >> In the case of leaving the supposed, or the notated root, of a dim7
> >> chord by a leap is concerned...
> >> It's true that the following chord's root will reveal one of the 1/2
> >> step relationships you cite (in categories 1 & 2) or the common tone
> >> relationship (cat 3) with the real root of the dim7 chord.
>
> >> Actually...Y'know what?
> >> Strike this whole comment.
> >> Leaving the root of a dim7 chord by a leap is covered perfectly well
> >> under your Categories 1 and 2.
> >> My bad. Quite bad actually.
>
> >> Leaping *to* the root of a dim7 chord is covered too, I think.
> >> I'd better think of this some more before I open my mouth again!
>
> >> My other comments stand.... I think?
>
> >> --
> >> joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
>
> > oops!
> > Now that is actually a great improvement! We all make mistakes. It
> > does show, however, (as does some of the latest posts) that you are
> > starting to try to actually read the posts and answer the question
> > that has been asked. Maybe your obsession with hating me is having
> > some positive effect after all!!
>
> Seriously...Will you please Fuck Off already.
>
> --
> Joey Goldsteinhttp://www.joeygoldstein.comhttp://www.soundclick.com/bands/joeygoldstein
> joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
You really should work on increasing your vocabulary!
LJS
merely restated what I said. I was mistaken, I was looking at another
thing and mixed up the examples. (I do have a lot private e-mails to
answer) I stated in my apology that they in fact was off topic and had
nothing to do with the post and I stated what they would be relative
to. Did you bother to rewrite it or was your reply a "copy and paste"?
LJS
Joey Goldstein
> AHA! you fell for it again!
Setting snares are you, eh?
Purposely saying stupid stuff so that I will fall into your trap and
call you out on it, so that you can then try to explain that what you
actually said was not what you actually said?
Brilliant!
> Like I originally said in the simple
> correction of the wording of your statement that you once again blew
> our of proportion, it ONLY is diatonic to the Harmonic minor scale.
But I said that too, you boob.
> NOT to the minor SCALES.
It's diatonic to minor *keys*, in general.
Like or it or not, this is one of the ways that musicians happen to use
the term "diatonic". If you actually knew any musicians you might know this.
If you weren't such a newcomer at this ng you might know that I'm not
all that fond of using the term "diatonic scale" to describe harmonic
minor or melodic minor either.
Personally speaking, I like to reserve the term diatonic for any 7 note
scale consisting of 5 whole tones and 2 semitones in which the semitones
are as far apart as possible, which eliminates harm min and mel min. But
musicians continue to use the term to describe these scales.
I'm not fond of usages such as "These chords are diatonic to the
diminished scale" either. But musicians continue to use the word that
way. And common usage is always the final arbiter of language, at least
eventually it is.
So who am I to argue? And the f... are you?
> It was a very simple correction of your
> grammer and you have once again proven that you really don't either
> read stuff or you make up stuff.
I proved that you are a silly little nit-picker who doesn't know what
goes on in the world of actual musicians.
> I know what diatonic means. I don't know what you mean by it, maybe
> some ancient Greek meaning or something. You can probably find
> something in Wiki to support your claims. BUT this has to stop. I am
> getting too many private e-mails of people saying that they are tired
> of your inane writings about the things that you don't know about and
> wishing that you would stick to what you don't know and they are tired
> of your slurs and BS in general.
If that were true they'd be writing me, not you.
> I may have to stop having fun with you.
> Sorry Joey.
Prove it. Shut the f... up.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
Joey Goldstein
Not really necessary.
I get my points across very well with the limited vocabulary I have now.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
Joey Goldstein
Sure you did.
cuckoo....cuckoo..cuckoo
LJS
Yes, Tom it is related. They are spelled the same. In the key of Cmin
the French 4/3 occurs in the 4/3 inversion, i.e. the Ab is in the
base, then there are the D F# (the raised 4th of the scale) and the C
voiced. the C resolves to the Bnat, the F# resolves to the G and the
D remains a D. It is a Second class chord (Sub Dominant class) and
thus its normal CPP resolution is to the Dominant with the root in the
bass (the Ab to G). In order for it to function as an augmented 6th
chord it would have to follow these rules (to be the traditional
French 4/3)
Their use in Jazz seems to be different than in the CPP or traditional
function of the chord. I believe that it usually functions as a V in
Jazz, but there are probably exceptions to this. I would think that
because of its use, that it came from a different origin, maybe as a
"blue note" alteration of flattening the 5th, I really don't know, but
being the inquisitive composers that they are, the Jazz artists would
find many uses for this ambiguous tonality and could easily have use
this as a spring board to the Tritone sub chords.
In its most popular appearance (at least on of the most popular ones)
Take the A Train, (it is notated in the RBI as the D7 b5 but in the
Coloradi as a D alt chord) it resolves or changes color, to another
second class chord (the ii7 in the ii-V-I) and thus would not be, in a
classical sense, an augmented 6th chord as the resolution does not
follow convention.
In any case, it is a very interesting chord and you seem to have a
good perspective on it. I would not be surprised if some research
would show that composers in later periods ("legit composers" lol, a
stupid distinction, but used for clarity) would have used it in the
way you are describing it.
BTW, Good observations and a good choice of presentation to use the
appropriate tools to clearly show the relation of the two chord types
from a symmetrical perspective!
LJS
LJS
> LJS wrote:
> > AHA! you fell for it again!
>
> Setting snares are you, eh?
> Purposely saying stupid stuff so that I will fall into your trap and
> call you out on it, so that you can then try to explain that what you
> actually said was not what you actually said?
> Brilliant!
>
> > Like I originally said in the simple
> > correction of the wording of your statement that you once again blew
> > our of proportion, it ONLY is diatonic to the Harmonic minor scale.
>
> But I said that too, you boob.
>
> > NOT to the minor SCALES.
>
> It's diatonic to minor *keys*, in general.
> Like or it or not, this is one of the ways that musicians happen to use
> the term "diatonic". If you actually knew any musicians you might know this.
> If you weren't such a newcomer at this ng you might know that I'm not
> all that fond of using the term "diatonic scale" to describe harmonic
> minor or melodic minor either.
I don't care what you are fond of. You can call it what you want. I
don't care! Make up your own personal rules. That is your prerogative.
I will try to use a more universally accepted and precise meaning of
the term.
> Personally speaking, I like to reserve the term diatonic for any 7 note
> scale consisting of 5 whole tones and 2 semitones in which the semitones
> are as far apart as possible, which eliminates harm min and mel min. But
> musicians continue to use the term to describe these scales.
Like I said. What you like is fine, but you are NOT the authority on
writing musical definitions! I said that it is right if you redefine
diatonic. This statement is agreement with what I said!
>
> I'm not fond of usages such as "These chords are diatonic to the
> diminished scale" either. But musicians continue to use the word that
> way. And common usage is always the final arbiter of language, at least
> eventually it is.
And you are so world traveled that you are the expert on the various
common usages of the music world, including the Classical theory
world? You have not shown this as yet.
>
> So who am I to argue? And the f... are you?
I will assume that the abbreviated profanity is a typo, or is it part
of Joey's new rules of grammar?
>
> > It was a very simple correction of your
> > grammer and you have once again proven that you really don't either
> > read stuff or you make up stuff.
>
> I proved that you are a silly little nit-picker who doesn't know what
> goes on in the world of actual musicians.
You have been a good teacher here. Why are you so upset when things
bounce back at you? The dim7 chord is STILL only found in one altered
version of the minor scale.
>
> > I know what diatonic means. I don't know what you mean by it, maybe
> > some ancient Greek meaning or something. You can probably find
> > something in Wiki to support your claims. BUT this has to stop. I am
> > getting too many private e-mails of people saying that they are tired
> > of your inane writings about the things that you don't know about and
> > wishing that you would stick to what you don't know and they are tired
> > of your slurs and BS in general.
>
> If that were true they'd be writing me, not you.
lol, they don't care to tell YOU!
>
> > I may have to stop having fun with you.
> > Sorry Joey.
>
> Prove it. Shut the f... up.
See, I am making progress. You have started to abbreviate the
profanity. "A small step for man... "
but I will shut up when I decide to. A wise.. no make that a prominent
poster to this group once said to me "This is a public news group and
I will say any F-----g thing I want." Who was that Joey? Can you
remember who said this? lol
>
> --
> Joey Goldsteinhttp://www.joeygoldstein.comhttp://www.soundclick.com/bands/joeygoldstein
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>Any refinements will be much appreciated.
I'd caution you to be careful about directionality, particularly in your
second case. If a diminished chord connects two chords, none of its
notes are going to be a halfstep above the second chord's root, since
that would fall into the first category. I would also caution against
assuming that these categories do not overlap. For instance, C-sharp
diminished connects C major with D minor. But, it also functions as a
substitute dominant function for A 7.
Orlando
Tom K.
"LJS" <ljsc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1189220908.0...@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
LJS:Yes, Tom it is related. They are spelled the same. In the key of Cmin
the French 4/3 occurs in the 4/3 inversion, i.e. the Ab is in the
base, then there are the D F# (the raised 4th of the scale) and the C
voiced. the C resolves to the Bnat, the F# resolves to the G and the
D remains a D. It is a Second class chord (Sub Dominant class) and
thus its normal CPP resolution is to the Dominant with the root in the
bass (the Ab to G). In order for it to function as an augmented 6th
chord it would have to follow these rules (to be the traditional
French 4/3)
Their use in Jazz seems to be different than in the CPP or traditional
function of the chord. I believe that it usually functions as a V in
Jazz, but there are probably exceptions to this. I would think that
because of its use, that it came from a different origin, maybe as a
"blue note" alteration of flattening the 5th, I really don't know, but
being the inquisitive composers that they are, the Jazz artists would
find many uses for this ambiguous tonality and could easily have use
this as a spring board to the Tritone sub chords.
TK: One common jazz usage is as the tritone sub for V7b5/V resolving to V -
exactly the same as the CPP Fr6 - V. Which raises the general question of
whether any V/V is dominant or dominant prep function!
LJS: In its most popular appearance (at least on of the most popular ones)
Take the A Train, (it is notated in the RBI as the D7 b5 but in the
Coloradi as a D alt chord) it resolves or changes color, to another
second class chord (the ii7 in the ii-V-I) and thus would not be, in a
classical sense, an augmented 6th chord as the resolution does not
follow convention.
TK: Many years ago, I played a gig with a bassist named Mert Oliver who
supposedly had played with Duke Ellington (Googling him reveals nearly 30
recordings from 1943~55). Mert claimed that the D7b5 was not the way Duke
played it and that the proper chord was a C Augmented. That makes sense to
me as the C Aug would be V/IV and the resolution to the following Dm would
simply be a type of deceptive (up a 2nd) resolution. Of course, Mert had
been imbibing enough that I had to carry his bass into the gig....
LJS: In any case, it is a very interesting chord and you seem to have a
good perspective on it. I would not be surprised if some research
would show that composers in later periods ("legit composers" lol, a
stupid distinction, but used for clarity) would have used it in the
way you are describing it.
TK: I believe you can find it in Franck and Berg among others - essentially
post (or at least very late) CPP.
Tom K.
LJS
> "LJS" <ljsche...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Berg? Alban? I am surprised. Do you know which piece that might be. I
am not really familiar with his tonal works. And in both of these, do
you know if they treat them as Fr 4/3s or as V chords?
I would think that "especially" since the bass player had had a few,
that he may have been telling the truth. The Aug makes sense as it
would follow that Chromatic Line of G G# A if I remember it correctly.
But the fact that he got you to carry his bass opens it up to all
kinds of speculation as to the validity of what he said! Bass players
will say anything to get a free ride for their bass! lol
Thank you for the reply.
LJS
Joey Goldstein
> On Sep 7, 10:54 am, "Tom K." <tkor...@spamspamcomcast.net> wrote:
>> Danny, it has to do with the partial symmetry of this chord (known in CPP
>> parlance as a "French Augmented 6th").
>> Tom K.
> Yes, Tom it is related. They are spelled the same. In the key of Cmin
> the French 4/3 occurs in the 4/3 inversion, i.e. the Ab is in the
> base, then there are the D F# (the raised 4th of the scale) and the C
> voiced. the C resolves to the Bnat, the F# resolves to the G and the
> D remains a D. It is a Second class chord (Sub Dominant class) and
> thus its normal CPP resolution is to the Dominant with the root in the
> bass (the Ab to G). In order for it to function as an augmented 6th
> chord it would have to follow these rules (to be the traditional
> French 4/3)
I'm betting that Danny, the poster who started the dom7b5 discussion,
probably has no idea what LJS and Tom are talking about at this point.
So I'm going to try to paraphrase for them as well correct LJS here and
there. (I'm sure he'll enjoy that.)
Both Tom and LJS are comparing the G7b5 chord in Desafinado with a
harmonic device that occurs in Common Practice Period and Romantic era
classical music called an augmented 6th chord.
LJS has come to the conclusion that Desafinado's G7b5 chords and Take
The A Train's D7b5 chords are not truly augmented 6th chords. He may be
right from a technical perspective, but IMO they are not all that far
removed from +6 chords IMO (albeit in 2nd inversion), even though the
jazz chord symbol notation misnames the root.
To explain...
In classical CPP harmony the major chord built on scale degree b6 (above
the tonic of the key) is called "The augmented 6th chord" when scale
degree #4 of the key (which happens to be an aug 6th interval above the
chord's root) is added to the bVI chord.
Eg.
In the key of C major, the following chord is called "The augmented 6th
chord":
Ab C Eb F#
1 3 5 #6 of the chord
b6 1 b3 #4 of the key
It's Roman numeral designation is bVI+6.
You may be thinking that if we simply called F# Gb instead then this
would just be a plain old Ab7 chord, and you'd be right if you were
discussing modern jazz and pop music. But just hold that thought for now.
This bVI+6 chord usually moves directly to I or indirectly to I via a V7
chord. I'm not really sure what the other possible allowable
resolutions, if any, for this chord were in the CPP era. But I see no
reason why it should not move through IIm7 on its way to V7 as it
approaches I, just like the "II7b5" chords do on both Desafinado and A
Train.
The reason this chord is spelled with a #6 rather than a b7 has to do
with the way that note resolves onto the next chord.
In a typical dom7 chord, the b7 always is supposed to resolve downward
by step or by 1/2 step.
So the Gb in a bona fide Ab7 chord (as V7 in Db) would fall to F (on a
Db chord) or to Fb (on a Dbm chord).
But with Ab+6, the F# resolves *upward* by 1/2 step to G which is the
dominant of the key (i.e. scale degree 5) as well as the 5th of the I
chord and/or the root of V7.
I'm told that in CPP music the aug 6th chord built on scale degree b6
was the only such structure in use. This is why I've called bVI+6 "The
augmented 6th chord" with a capital "T".
But I'm told that in Romantic era harmony you will also find bII+6 and
IV+6 chords as well as the bVI+6.
In all 3 forms, the resolution of the chord's #6 degree is upward by 1/2
step.
There are 3 versions of the augmented 6th chord type, named after 3
European countries.
The German version is the one listed above. It's intervalic structure
above its root is:
1 3 5 #6
The Italian version has the 5th omitted.
1 3 #6
The French version, which is the one that Tom and LJS have been
discussing is:
1 3 #4 #6
So what tom and LJS have been comparing the G7b5 in Desafindo to, is the
French version of bVI+6 (in the key of F major that'd be Db+6) but in
its 2nd inversion.
Db F G B (root position)
1 3 #4 #6
G B Db F (2nd inversion)
#4 #6 1 3
The D7b5 in A Train (key of C major), is like the French version of Ab+6
(bVI+6 in C major) in 2nd inversion:
Ab C D F# (root position)
1 3 #4 #6
D F# Ab C (2nd inversion)
#4 #6 1 3
So whether or not these are truly instances of FrbVI6 in 2nd inv, IMO,
is somewhat debatable. But I come down on the side of yes. But, and this
is a big but, only if there are no other additions (of the type
described below) to the chord, and jazz musicians will almost always add
more color tones to these structures.
I.e.
If a player voices the G7b5 in Desafinado as G7(9,#11,13), which many
many players are likely to do...then its resemblance to Db+6 (French
from) in 2nd inversion is mangled beyond repair.
It would be Db+6(#5,b9,#9) which, I'm guessing, would have been anathema
to any classical composer of the CPP or Romantic era.
So, actually LJS is right in not allowing these chords +6-hood.
But in it's non-extended form, II7b5 does behave very much like the
classical Fr+6 chord in 2nd inversion.
Still, jazz players don't really treat them as +6 chords.
> Their use in Jazz seems to be different than in the CPP or traditional
> function of the chord.
The way jazz players treat bII+6 and IV+6 is fairly standard, assuming
you are the type of classical theorist that allows for bII+6 and IV+6
chords.
> I believe that it usually functions as a V in
> Jazz, but there are probably exceptions to this.
bII+6, which is an approach chord to I or Im, is identical to the notion
of the tritone substitute dom7 chord.
bII+6 is the tritone sub for V7.
Secondary dom7 chords can also have tritone subs.
Eg. A7 is V7/IIm in C.
Eb7 would be bII+6/IIm (aka SubV7/IIm) in C.
etc.
> I would think that
> because of its use, that it came from a different origin, maybe as a
> "blue note" alteration of flattening the 5th,
The b5 "blue note" is b5 of the key, not of the V7 chord.
G7b5's b5 is Db, and Db is b2 in the key of C.
b2 is usually not considered to be a blue note.
In order for a chord to be drawing on the b5 blue note sound, in C, it
would have to contain F# or Gb.
In this sense, II7 (aka V7/V...D7 in the key of C), has a blues
connotation.
But that's not what you are alluding to above.
> I really don't know,
Nice to see you admit that for once.
> but
> being the inquisitive composers that they are, the Jazz artists would
> find many uses for this ambiguous tonality and could easily have use
> this as a spring board to the Tritone sub chords.
The way I look at it is that Romantic era composers used bVI+6 as a
springboard to bII+6.
Jazz guys just expanded and loosened the concept of bII+6, which morphed
into the tritone substitute dominant concept.
> In its most popular appearance (at least on of the most popular ones)
> Take the A Train, (it is notated in the RBI as the D7 b5 but in the
> Coloradi as a D alt chord)
D7alt would be quite uncommon, but could be made to work.
> it resolves or changes color, to another
> second class chord (the ii7 in the ii-V-I)
"Second class"? Really?
Is that a term used to describe anything other than I IV or V?
or is it anything other than I and V?
Or does it mean something else?
I've never seen that term.
> and thus would not be, in a
> classical sense, an augmented 6th chord as the resolution does not
> follow convention.
I'll take your word for it.
But as I said earlier it does eventually get to I, and it goes through
V7 to get there. So it's not all that far removed from bVI+6, IMO.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
Joey Goldstein
> "LJS" <ljsc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> TK: Many years ago, I played a gig with a bassist named Mert Oliver who
> supposedly had played with Duke Ellington (Googling him reveals nearly 30
> recordings from 1943~55). Mert claimed that the D7b5 was not the way Duke
> played it and that the proper chord was a C Augmented. That makes sense to
> me as the C Aug would be V/IV and the resolution to the following Dm would
> simply be a type of deceptive (up a 2nd) resolution. Of course, Mert had
> been imbibing enough that I had to carry his bass into the gig....
I'm just listening to the version of A Train (recorded in 1941) from the
Ken Burns box set.
It's not totally audible through my little speakers but it sounds like
the 1st chorus of the tune is actually:
C | |Ab7#5 | |G9sus4 etc.
I.e. The chord in question has the bass player hitting Abs on the strong
beats. There's definitely an F#/Gb in the chord as well, so it's not
just an aug triad.
The BG harmonies seem to be whole-tone-scale based, but I don't really
hear any prominent D nats.
Not too hard to see how writers like those of the original RB (just
music students) could have confused this with D9b5.
And it appears moves to a chord with G in the bass on the next change.
In CPP harmony would FrbVI+6 ever have the #5 added to it?
I'm guessing probably not.
I'll bet though that Duke knew very well about bVI+6 and that this was
his take on it.
Note:
I've only checked out the 1st instance of this (these) chord(s) in the
1st chorus. Other instances may have been handled differently.
LJS
Gee, paraphrasing my post! That is exactly what I said, they are
related but are not technically the same because of their action!
Could we both be right? (this is a big step from the revelation that
there were indeed 3 forms of the +6. Good job Joey!
>
> To explain...
>
> In classical CPP harmony the major chord built on scale degree b6 (above
> the tonic of the key) is called "The augmented 6th chord" when scale
> degree #4 of the key (which happens to be an aug 6th interval above the
> chord's root) is added to the bVI chord.
> Eg.
> In the key of C major, the following chord is called "The augmented 6th
> chord":
> Ab C Eb F#
> 1 3 5 #6 of the chord
> b6 1 b3 #4 of the key
> It's Roman numeral designation is bVI+6.
>
> You may be thinking that if we simply called F# Gb instead then this
> would just be a plain old Ab7 chord, and you'd be right if you were
> discussing modern jazz and pop music. But just hold that thought for now.
> This bVI+6 chord usually moves directly to I or indirectly to I via a V7
> chord. I'm not really sure what the other possible allowable
> resolutions, if any, for this chord were in the CPP era. But I see no
> reason why it should not move through IIm7 on its way to V7 as it
> approaches I, just like the "II7b5" chords do on both Desafinado and A
> Train.
This is not wrong, and you can use it that way, but that is why it is
not a French 6th.
Well, you can certainly play them as you describe, and you can debate
them all you want, but unless you re-define the term, you are just
blowing smoke! Its by definition that they are not French 6ths UNLESS
they do the things that they are defined as to give them their name.
If you want, you are correct in calling them an Augmented 6th if they
do indeed resolve the m7th outward to the octave! That is a correct
term, they ARE aug 6ths if they act that way. ( I don't care about if
it is written as a Gb or a F#, to me I will always let that go and go
with the actual function of the sound of the music) but they are not
French 6ths unless they do what Fr6ths actually do. This is what my
post was saying.
Now on the other hand, the nature of the Fr 6+ will allow you to think
of it as a V7-5 of V. This is an informal way of looking at this
chord and itis natural that this manner of thinking would be more
understandable to a Jazz oriented theorists. It is really a II chord,
however and this way of looking at it is not really accurate but it
does help to understand what is happening with this chord.
In the examples, however, Desafinado has two different occurrences of
the V7-5 chord. Key of F: G7-5 to Gmin7 and C7-5 to Fmaj7. Neither of
these instances are examples of Fr 6th chords as the G7-5 would need
to resolve the G note down to F# and the Fnat (E#) would have to
resolve up to F#. This is very unlikely to happen in a Gmin7 chord.
And the other instance, the C7-5 would have to resolve to the octave B
in order to be a Fr 6th also unlikely in an F chord.
Now in the A Train, with the example looks more promising. There is
that chromatic line, the G to G# to A, but that is not the correct
line. The G# (Ab) wold have to resolve down to G rather than up to A
to fit with the Fr6th and its function. In order to be a Fr 6th it
would have to resolve to the octave C# and this is not found in the
Dmin chord that it does indeed progress to.
So although in some cases, the V7-5 COULD be functioning as a Fr6th in
neither of these cases is it related in any way except in its
spelling. The resolution that you describe is true, it just doesn't
occur in these instances.
>
> I.e.
> If a player voices the G7b5 in Desafinado as G7(9,#11,13), which many
> many players are likely to do...then its resemblance to Db+6 (French
> from) in 2nd inversion is mangled beyond repair.
> It would be Db+6(#5,b9,#9) which, I'm guessing, would have been anathema
> to any classical composer of the CPP or Romantic era.
I don't understand what you are getting at here. The only resemblance
to the Fr6th in Desafinado is if you enharmonically respell the
chord.
>
> So, actually LJS is right in not allowing these chords +6-hood.
> But in it's non-extended form, II7b5 does behave very much like the
> classical Fr+6 chord in 2nd inversion.
> Still, jazz players don't really treat them as +6 chords.
I don't understand what you are trying to say here either.
>
> > Their use in Jazz seems to be different than in the CPP or traditional
> > function of the chord.
Again in agreement?
>
> The way jazz players treat bII+6 and IV+6 is fairly standard, assuming
> you are the type of classical theorist that allows for bII+6 and IV+6
> chords.
This is more true of the Nepolitian6 and this is not related to the Fr
at all. (except that they are both Second class chords, i.e.
Subdominant functions)
>
> > I believe that it usually functions as a V in
> > Jazz, but there are probably exceptions to this.
>
> bII+6, which is an approach chord to I or Im, is identical to the notion
> of the tritone substitute dom7 chord.
> bII+6 is the tritone sub for V7.
> Secondary dom7 chords can also have tritone subs.
> Eg. A7 is V7/IIm in C.
> Eb7 would be bII+6/IIm (aka SubV7/IIm) in C.
> etc.
>
> > I would think that
> > because of its use, that it came from a different origin, maybe as a
> > "blue note" alteration of flattening the 5th,
>
> The b5 "blue note" is b5 of the key, not of the V7 chord.
> G7b5's b5 is Db, and Db is b2 in the key of C.
> b2 is usually not considered to be a blue note.
That is why I did not say that it was using the blue note scale, only
that it was using a "blue note"alteration. (notice the quotation
marks! referring to flattening the 5th, I was careful not to say using
the flatted 5th of the scale.) This was also an 'aside' to point out
that it was probably not taken from the classical, in this case, as it
is not usually spelled the same as the classical chord and that it
doesn't necessarily resolve in this same manner. It would be natural,
however, that players that have been exposed to the chord would
resolve it in the same manner if it indeed did go to the dominant as
this would be a natural way to resolve it as the voice leading to
dominant is the shortest route anyway.
> In order for a chord to be drawing on the b5 blue note sound, in C, it
> would have to contain F# or Gb.
> In this sense, II7 (aka V7/V...D7 in the key of C), has a blues
> connotation.
> But that's not what you are alluding to above.
>
> > I really don't know,
>
> Nice to see you admit that for once.
Once? You really don't pay any attention to my posts do you?
Glad to see that you are paying attention, for once!!
>
> > but
> > being the inquisitive composers that they are, the Jazz artists would
> > find many uses for this ambiguous tonality and could easily have use
> > this as a spring board to the Tritone sub chords.
>
> The way I look at it is that Romantic era composers used bVI+6 as a
> springboard to bII+6.
Interesting way to look at it. It was really a matter of voice leading
that seems to have been the real reason. BUT that is good. You are
starting to look at things from a different perspective and you are
finding relationships. Good.
> Jazz guys just expanded and loosened the concept of bII+6, which morphed
> into the tritone substitute dominant concept.
>
> > In its most popular appearance (at least on of the most popular ones)
> > Take the A Train, (it is notated in the RBI as the D7 b5 but in the
> > Coloradi as a D alt chord)
>
> D7alt would be quite uncommon, but could be made to work.
Thanks for agreeing and verifying my statement. (in fact, anything can
be MADE to work. like the C aug chord that Duke's bass player said he
played)
>
> > it resolves or changes color, to another
> > second class chord (the ii7 in the ii-V-I)
>
> "Second class"? Really?
> Is that a term used to describe anything other than I IV or V?
> or is it anything other than I and V?
> Or does it mean something else?
> I've never seen that term.
I wouldn't expect that you have. It is a classical theory term, I
think I first came across it through Hindemith. It has been used in
this group several times and simply refers to the general class of
harmony know as SubDominant but included most II chords as well and
any other chord that would normally be expected to progress the the
first class or Dominant. (I myself have used this term and you have
commented on it in the past!)
>
> > and thus would not be, in a
> > classical sense, an augmented 6th chord as the resolution does not
> > follow convention.
>
> I'll take your word for it.
> But as I said earlier it does eventually get to I, and it goes through
> V7 to get there. So it's not all that far removed from bVI+6, IMO.
That is not the point. The chord can be an augmented 6th chord as long
as it is spelled that way and the +6 expands to the octave. If,
however, if it does not go to the V chord, then it is not a French 4/3
chord. By the way, the reason we used the French 6th for discussion is
that it is the only one that is spelled like a dom7-5 and thus is the
only one that could be used as an example.
>
> --
> Joey Goldsteinhttp://www.joeygoldstein.comhttp://www.soundclick.com/bands/joeygoldstein
> joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
Not bad. Now I at least have you thinking. I am glad that you admitted
that Tom and I am correct. That is a bit surprising and a big step for
you Joey! (Technically correct is indeed true. As Tom and I pointed
out in the post) In Your opinion, of course, we are wrong because in
your opinion only Joey can be right!!
All in all, Joey, one of your better posts. There are a few strange
things in it, but I can tell that you are working on the +6 chord
concepts and you are making good progress. There is a good site, but I
don't have the address. (I downloaded that section and the address I
have is local to my computer) but WAIT, I have it:
<http://www.utexas.edu/courses/mus612b/fmain/fdocs/notes/
augsixth.html>
This is a clear explanation of this group of chords, including the 4th
one that is not really a different one at all! along with written
examples as well as sound clips. It should be very helpful. I hope you
take it in the spirit it is given and that it helps you to fully
understand how these chords work in their original setting. It might
help to explain how to translate these concepts into the Jazz setting.
I think it will lead someplace around the tri-tone subs, but maybe you
can find another connection to the Jazz world with these.
LJS
LJS
> Tom K. wrote:
> > "LJS" <ljsche...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
Could be, this would be more like an augmented 6th and it would not be
the first time that a lead sheet was wrong. Although maybe he played
it various ways each night!! Who can tell unless they were there! It
would be the first time that ever heard it this way on the gig,
however. How about you?
LJS
Joey Goldstein
> Now I at least have you thinking.
Fuck you, asshole. How full of yourself for no reason you are.
I've known about all this for years.
I posted what I posted in order to clean up your mess.
Sheesh.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
¤ Alias
wrote:
>I'm betting that Danny, the poster who started the dom7b5 discussion,
>probably has no idea what LJS and Tom are talking about at this point.
>So I'm going to try to paraphrase for them as well correct LJS here and
>there. (I'm sure he'll enjoy that.)
It's not that I have *no* idea what they are talking about - I do in a very
general sense of the word - it's just that augumented 6ths have been a real
weak spot for me as far as legit harmony is concerned. It's the one area of
Piston that I never got a handle on 'at all'. And I understand it's role in
jazz (and the connection with the tritone sub/extensions etc.) even less.
I have only had a limited amount of time so far to work thru the posts and
examples you guys have provided - I plan on setting aside tomorrow for that
- but till then I just want to say thanks for what should prove to be much
help in correcting this weak spot.
Danny
Joey Goldstein
It's a big band chart.
I doubt he used a different chart every gig.
And every time they played that chart, which is the classic recording,
that's what they did.
How is it that Ab7#5 is "more like an augmented 6th" than Ab7b5/D?
And the stuff that you didn't understand what I was getting at in your
last post, all had to do with added tones on the Fr+6 chord compared to
those used by jazz players on II7b5.
My point was that when a jazz guy plays off of D7b5 (as V7b5/II) he will
more or less routinely add the maj 9th (E) and the maj 13th (B).
I'm not sure whether in classical harmony that these same two tones
would ever be added to bVI+6(Fr).
My guess is that they would never be added.
But how 'bout it...
On Ab+6(Fr) in the key of C major, would this chord ever be extended
with a b13th (aka #5) above the root (E) or a #9 above the root (B)?
If I'm right, and the answer is no, then it just confirms a notion I was
musing about regarding the differences between the jazz guy's II7b5 and
the classical guy's French +6 chord.
BTW
If you haven't noticed...I'm attempting to talk to you about music.
But if you continue your own style of patronizing me by trying to pose
as some master musician who little ignorant me should be in awe of, I'll
just keep putting you in your place. You make too many dumb mistakes to
be taken that seriously.
So if you want to talk about music, go ahead.
If you want to talk down to me... Well you know what you'll get.
But I'm sorry...When you make stupid comments about things you know
nothing about, I *will* call you on them. I'll be as polite about as I
feel is warranted....at first.
OK Slick?
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
Joey Goldstein
Well, just remember that after all that text about aug 6th chords, the
chord you asked about isn't really one of them!
LJS
> LJS wrote:
> > Now I at least have you thinking.
>
> Fuck you, asshole. How full of yourself for no reason you are.
> I've known about all this for years.
> I posted what I posted in order to clean up your mess.
> Sheesh.
>
> --
> joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
Again with the profanity. I was only quoting one of your previous
posts! How quickly you forget!!
And you were doing so good. Don't know a compliment when you hear it.
LJS
Check out that web site. If it didn't come through OK, let me know and
I will send it to you. It is very clear as to what these chords are,
and are not. JG, as you will see, really doesn't know what they are
and are not.
LJS
LJS
More slurs. Joey, you have no idea about the +6 chords as evidence by
your post. If they don't resolve to the octave as even you explained,
then they are not augmented sixth chords. Put a lid on your stupid ego
trips and join the real world.
OK Slick, and you have no idea about politeness as evidence by your
posts as well.
Get with it.
LJS
> joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
You could have saved your self a lot of embarrassment if you had only
read the post in the first place. That was all explained way back
when!!
None are so blind as those that will not see!
Joey Goldstein
Joey Goldstein
Again, you have no idea what the people around you are actually talking
about. Ypu're living in some sort of an LJS bubble and nothing gets through.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
Tom K.
> On Sep 8, 11:42 am, "Tom K." <tkor...@spamspamcomcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> TK: I believe you can find it in Franck and Berg among others -
>> essentially
>> post (or at least very late) CPP.
>>
>> Tom K.
>
> Berg? Alban? I am surprised. Do you know which piece that might be. I
> am not really familiar with his tonal works. And in both of these, do
> you know if they treat them as Fr 4/3s or as V chords?
>
The Op.2 songs use a number of V7b5 chords. IIRC, they also appear in his
Piano Sonata, Op.1.
Tom K.
LJS
> "LJS" <ljsche...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Thanks, I will try to look them up and see how they are used.
LJS
¤ Alias
wrote:
>
>"¤ Alias" <.~^@^~.> wrote in message
>news:cvf1e3pj6ia5kq4v9...@4ax.com...
>>
>And it can resolve either way.
>
>Or, for something that may not seem as symmetrical as fully diminished, or
>that doesn't seem to be able to resolve to four different points, consider
>the following:
>
>G# B D F#
>
>Move G# up a half step, and F# down a 1/2
>
>A B D F
>
>Move the notes that are a M2 apart again:
>
>Ab C D F
>
>ditto (enharmonic shift for simplicity)
>
>Ab Cb Eb F
>-------------
>G# B D# E#
>
>ditto
>
>G# B D F#
>
>where we began.
>
>Something there?
>
>Steve
>
Sometimes it occurs to me I'm not so much stupid as I am lazy.....
- Guess I'm probably the only guy here who didn't know those were min7b5s
m3rd apart, huh .......
Danny
Steve Latham
"¤ Alias" <.~^@^~.> wrote in message
Tee hee hee.
Steve
>
Zerex71
Can someone not named Joseph Goldslop answer me what the terms "CPP"
and "French" are that have been used in this discussion, and what they
refer to?
Mike
Joey Goldstein
CPP means Common Practice Period of classical music. Roughly
1600-1850romantic era harmony, I believe.
The French augmented 6th chord is one of 3 variations of the augmented
6th chord, the French, the German, and the Italian.
Ger+6 is spelled 1 3 5 #6 (sometimes, in minor keys it's spelled 1 3 x4 #6)
It+6 is spelled 1 3 #6 (i.e. no 5th)
Fr+6 is 1 3 #4 #6
The resolution of the aug 6th chordal tone is upwards by 1/2 step to the
dominant (scale degree 5) of the key.
Aug 6th chords in CPP music only ocurred on scale degree b6 of the key.
Eg. Ab C D F# would be functioning as bVI+6(Fr) in the key of C major or
C minor. The F# resolves upward to G on the next chord, C or Cm,
sometimes with a G7 interpolated between (Ab+6 C, or Ab+6 G7 C).
In Romantic era and later harmony +6 chords were also used on scale
degree b2 (bII+6) and scale degree 4 (IV+6).
bII+6 resolve to I.
IV+6 usually resolves to I also.
bII+6 is identical in function to what jazz guys call the "tritone
substitute dominant" chord.
And you're welcome, Muck.
Joey Goldstein
> CPP means Common Practice Period of classical music. Roughly
> 1600-1850romantic era harmony, I believe.
Typo.
Shoulda been:
"CPP means Common Practice Period of classical music. Roughly
1600-1850, I believe."