Postmodernism
MikWeyandt
recent years? I'm not really sure what postmodernism is all about, and I'd like
to know!
--Michael
Stu McIntire
3rd Quartet referred to as the first postmodern piece, and I have heard his
music since that piece was composed, as well as the entire "neo-romantic"
body of work, referred to as postmodern. Some people are using the term
"new consonant music", which seems to me to be a subset of what is generally
considered to be "neo-romantic" (leaving out some of the more interesting
stuff, to my taste, if I understand the distinctions that are trying to be
made here), and are trying to equate that music with postmodernism. This
seems to me to be marketing spin, but maybe not. Here is a website for "The
New Consonant Music": http://www.avk.org/ncm/index.html
I heard John Adams, in a recent NPR radio interview, refer to his
Harmonielehre as possibly the first postmodern piece, and have heard that
label applied to minimalism in general. Here is a url for info about
Harmonielehre: www.schirmer.com/composers/adams_harmonielehre.html (I am
sending this from an old version of GroupWise, so if the link is not clear,
there is an underline character after "adams").
I have heard earlier music referred to as postmodern, too, including music
concrete (sp, I know), indeterminant music, Cage's music in general, and
collage music. The term has been applied to various trends in pop music,
too.
Academics are variously pooh-poohing the term as overused, inadequately
specific, etc., or are using the term to their own ends. Some are trying to
apply the term to earlier and earlier phases, some to limit it to truly
post-"high" modern developments, while others wish the term would just go
away. Based on my own reading in philosophy, lit crit, and architecture -
the fields where the term seems to me to "mean" the most - it seems useful
to apply the term to music in a general way to all of the developments since
the demise of the serial hegemony. It does not seem useful to me to apply
it to any one specific style or ism, but you will get varying opinions on
all of this for sure! Good luck -
Stu
Samuel Vriezen
<smci...@eastern-casualty.com> wrote:
>"new consonant music"
Seems like a very strange concept to me. The majority of good musics
of the past has been excruciatingly dissonant when necessary. For
instance, very many of the WTK preludes & fugues in minor keys are
incredibly dissonant (playing the Bb minor one in the first book these
days - check out bar 2 of the prelude) But in fact, why not? If
Stockhausen or Radulescu can amuse us for an hour using nought but the
partials of a single tone...
>it seems useful
>to apply the term to music in a general way to all of the developments since
>the demise of the serial hegemony.
That would be all post-1951 music? should at least include Xenakis
(for his article on the fundamental crisis in serial composition from
the mid50's) (BTW I'm teasing)
Howard Peirce
> I don't know of any specific web sources, but I recently heard Rochberg's
> 3rd Quartet referred to as the first postmodern piece, and I have heard his
> music since that piece was composed, as well as the entire "neo-romantic"
> body of work, referred to as postmodern. Some people are using the term
> "new consonant music", which seems to me to be a subset of what is generally
> considered to be "neo-romantic" (leaving out some of the more interesting
> stuff, to my taste, if I understand the distinctions that are trying to be
> made here), and are trying to equate that music with postmodernism.
Hmm... as always, I'm most familiar with "postmodernism" in a jazz context,
although if I'm not mistaken, as I understand the term there's a fairly
incestuous relationship between postmodern jazz and postmodern new music and
postmodern pop/rock.
I would never decribe "neo-romantic" music as postmodern, with the possible
exception of Berio's Sinfonia, and even then I'm not sure. Postmodernism and
neoconservatism both reference the past, but do so in very different ways. I
believe postmodernism is characterized by irony and by the self-conscious
inclusion of elements of popular culture. Not something I think of when I think
of John Adams, but then I'm mostly familiar with "Nixon in China," and that was
some years ago.
Anyway, I think of postmodern music as what Kyle Gann called "downtown" music,
or what jazz folks refer to as "the Knit scene" (after the Knitting Factory,
home of Bang on a Can, the Radical Jewish Culture series, and other exemplars
of the approach). As I say, there's an incestuous relationship between jazz,
pop, and new music elements in postmodernism. The music of John Zorn is
typically filed under jazz in CD shops, but set pieces like The Big Gundown
feature music and musicians from a variety of backgrounds and contain few of
the earmarks usually associated with jazz.
When the Knitting Factory, in its Radical Jewish Music series, invited jazz,
classical new music, electronic, and popular musicians to collaborate in a
tribute to Burt Bacharach that managed to be simultaneous snide, mocking,
self-referential, touching, ugly, funny, and gorgeous--that to me is postmodern
music, in a sense that would be recognized by the litcrit, art, and
architecture community.
> I heard John Adams, in a recent NPR radio interview, refer to his
> Harmonielehre as possibly the first postmodern piece, and have heard that
> label applied to minimalism in general.
I've really never heard anything from Adams I would describe as postmodern.
OTOH, I think Satie very nearly accomplished postmodernist music ~8 decades
ago. I'd say the historical precursers to postmodernism are Satie, dada, and
futurism.
> I have heard earlier music referred to as postmodern, too, including music
> concrete (sp, I know), indeterminant music, Cage's music in general, and
> collage music.
I disagree about Cage and co.--if this music isn't (one) logical conclusion of
high modernism I don't know what is.
> Based on my own reading in philosophy, lit crit, and architecture -
> the fields where the term seems to me to "mean" the most - it seems useful
> to apply the term to music in a general way to all of the developments since
> the demise of the serial hegemony.
I don't know--without irony, self-reference, and the mix of high/low-brow
culture, it doesn't strike my ear as postmodern. Ooh--and another thing: to me,
postmodernism denies the ideal of sui-generis originality--hence the confusion
with neoconservatism. Post modernism is not so much about the creation of
something brand new, but reappraising and exploiting the juxtaposition of
things old. And, unlike the neoconservatives, much of what I think of as
postmodern depends on collaboration--blurring the very idea of authorship.
(Cage negated the concept of authorship, but I wouldn't call Cage's
indeterminacy "collaborative.")
> It does not seem useful to me to apply
> it to any one specific style or ism, but you will get varying opinions on
> all of this for sure!
Here's mine!
HP
Samuel Vriezen
<howard...@sdrc.com> wrote:
>> I have heard earlier music referred to as postmodern, too, including music
>> concrete (sp, I know), indeterminant music, Cage's music in general, and
>> collage music.
>
>I disagree about Cage and co.--if this music isn't (one) logical conclusion of
>high modernism I don't know what is.
I have seen petty academic 'Is Cage Modern Or Postmodern' battles
begin and begin and continue ad nauseam for quite a while now. Why not
let's say the guy had modernist qualities if you think modernism is X
(pure begin-again-always-from-scratch aestheticism) had postmodernist
qualities if you think pomo is Y (indeterminacy for instance relating
to a lack of metaphysical absolute truth, the happening and the circus
for coexistence of vastly different social realities etc).
Dominique Larré
Howard Peirce a écrit dans le message <3842EDD8...@sdrc.com>...
:Stu McIntire wrote:
:>Some people are using the term
:> "new consonant music...:
:Hmm... .....
.............
:I would never decribe "neo-romantic" music as postmodern, with the
possible
:exception of Berio's Sinfonia, and even then I'm not sure. .....
.....
Hello, and - as a distant cousin - the more recent Berio opera called
"Outis" (I believe about two-three year-old, and currently being
presented for the first time in Paris/Châtelet), in which Sinfonia style
appears from time to time as a sort of quotation. Lovely work once
again, by the way.
Greetings
Dominique Larré
:> > --Michael
: