Portamento, Portamento!!!
Daniel Scott Casey
anyone out there know how to use the midi portamento controllers??
i think one of them is #65 dec. i have cakewalk 3.0 and a korg
wavestation and a proteus, and i would like to be able to play some
portamento lead solos (a la K.Emerson, T.Banks, P.Bardens, R.Wakeman....)
but i cannot find a way to do it with my gear....
perhaps they just don't have the capabilities? how does the sy99 do it?
can the waldorf microwave do it??
i am sure many of you can answer these questions for me, and i would be grateful
if you could please e-mail a response (i don't get to read this group
as often as i would like to......)
Thanks in advance,
Dan Casey
ca...@um.cc.umich.edu
Eirikur Hallgrimsson
In article <8_c+MR#@engin.umich.edu>, ca...@nike.engin.umich.edu (Daniel Scott Casey) writes...
>
>anyone out there know how to use the midi portamento controllers??
>i think one of them is #65 dec. i have cakewalk 3.0 and a korg
>wavestation and a proteus, and i would like to be able to play some
>portamento lead solos (a la K.Emerson, T.Banks, P.Bardens, R.Wakeman....)
>but i cannot find a way to do it with my gear....
Portamento is a pitfall with most MIDI gear. Really only Yamaha seems to get
it right, but my Casio VZ-10M seems to respond correctly as well.
1) Many modern instruments (including some otherwise quite good ones) simply do
not have portamento as a feature. The K1 family is a good example. I believe
that the M1 and T-series omit this as well. The Kurzweil 1000-series seems to
omit it, but I wouldn't swear by it (I tendy to be busy trying not to swear AT
the UI and documentation). I would assume that the WaveStation does
portamento, but I haven't seen the spec, or tried it. Portamento doesn't seem to be in
much demand (note that home keyboards with tons of samples, beat boxes, and
reverb NEVER do portamento). It's strictly for the elite :-)
2) Many instruments that DO implement portamento do not respond to the MIDI
control changes that are assigned to on/off and rate. (There should be one for
selecting lin/log and one for mode (legato, or always), but I won't go into
that.) Screaming, glaring example: Oberheim. (Well, you can assign a virtual
footpedal to an arbitrary MIDI controller, and map that to a lag rate, and use
that to control the VCO... for every single individual patch. Loads of fun on
the Matrix-1000. Pray for the MIDI implementation on the OB-MX.)
3) Someone with more insight into the history of the MIDI spec. should add
value here: I think portamento was a late addition, the convention adopted by
Yamaha was blessed in a post V1.0 addition to the spec, explaining why many
instruments that implemented to V1.0 don't support MIDI portamento controllers
even though they are portamento-capable machines.
Question to ask your otherwise portamento-capable box: Can other parts of the
signal chain that track note# glide, or is it only the oscillators?
A modular system really spoils you here. "Lemme see, I want the filter's fc to
slew just a little slower than the oscillators...."
Eirikur Hallgrimsson | "Hey, what *is* that thing? It looks like a telephone
e...@ranger.enet.dec.com | switchboard trying to mate with a Hammond organ!"
PATHWORKS for Macintosh|
JRO...@eagle.aamrl.wpafb.af.mil
The K2000 has fully functional portamento. The defaults respond to standard
MIDI values for portamento switching and portamento lag time. In addition,
you can set different layers to respond to portamento differently, so
it is possible to do some pretty sophisticated 'multi-glide' effects. Since
the tracking of each layer is independently programmable, in a drum setup
it is possible to have 12 layers (possibly 24, but I think that the polyphony
would get halved) portamenting to different locations at different lag
times. Now, this isn't the kind of thing you see too often, anymore, but
it was one of my favorite things to do with my larger modular systems.
Effects like these make for very dramatic transitions. When you couple
this type of power with the voicing architecture and all its modulation
capabilities, well, you get the idea. I have just about worked out the
layers/voices/polyphony issues and will be posting a general description
very soon. As good as the manual is, it is still written at a level which
renders it useless to the majority of people who might want to use it.
Personally, I wouldn't mind doing an Alaxender Publishing type manual on
this machine because anybody could use one.
John
Scott Amspoker
>
>The K2000 has fully functional portamento. The defaults respond to standard
>MIDI values for portamento switching and portamento lag time.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I recall the K2000 instructional video mentioned
that portamento was only possible on mono layers. While this is certainly
a reasonable limitation I would have to define "fully functional" to
include polyphonic portamento (without having to play games with multiple
mono layers).
--
Scott Amspoker |
Basis International, Albuquerque, NM | "A man without a newsgroup"
|
sc...@bbx.basis.com |
Dan Harkless
Matrix-12 as well). You can only use it effectively in unison mode or in
multi patches where the section is only assigned to one voice, because each
voice keeps oscillating where it left off after you stop playing it, and when
it gets the signal to lag up or down to a new note, it'll do it from wherever
it was last played, _not_ from the last note that was played. It would be
nice if they had a function you could turn on that would set all the
oscillators to the pitch you're currently playing, so portamento would work
properly in rotate or reset modes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Dan Harkless | "The sore in my soul |
| dhar...@bonnie.ics.uci.edu | The mark in my heart -> Front 242, |
| d...@cafws1.eng.uci.edu | Her acid reign..." Tragedy >For You< |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neil Weinstock
> My gripe about portamento is on the Xpander (and presumably the
>Matrix-12 as well). You can only use it effectively in unison mode or in
>multi patches where the section is only assigned to one voice, because each
>voice keeps oscillating where it left off after you stop playing it, and when
>it gets the signal to lag up or down to a new note, it'll do it from wherever
>it was last played, _not_ from the last note that was played.
Same problem on the Matrix 6, but it's worse, because you can't under any
circumstance assign only 1 voice to a zone, or anything. I asked someone from
Oberheim once if they'd consider putting in a parameter in for unison mode
that selects the number of voices that get stacked. It would at least allow
me to play monophonic portamento lines without getting all the buzziness
that comes from stacking multiple voices. He looked at me like I was from
Mars or something.
>It would be
>nice if they had a function you could turn on that would set all the
>oscillators to the pitch you're currently playing, so portamento would work
>properly in rotate or reset modes.
Yeah, that would be nice too. I wonder if this type of thing is more difficult
to do with analog synths than with digital. The best polyphonic portamento
implementations I've seen are all on digital synths.
- Neil
--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--
Neil Weinstock @ AT&T Bell Labs // What was sliced bread
att!edsel!nsw or n...@edsel.att.com \X/ the greatest thing since?
WSC...@wooster.bitnet
using a sequencer. Write a ghost track of notes with velocity value of
1 that immediately precede the actual played notes. The portamento will
take off from the unsounded (more or less) note to your "played" note.
This also allows you to control the "stretch" of the portamento.
I've used this trick to good effect on Yamaha products. I don't have any
Oberheim, but it should work.
Bill Scott
WSCOTT@WOOSTER
woops WSC...@WOOSTER.BITNET or WSC...@ACS.WOOSTER.EDU
metlay
>Matrix-12 as well). You can only use it effectively in unison mode or in
>multi patches where the section is only assigned to one voice, because each
>voice keeps oscillating where it left off after you stop playing it, and when
>it gets the signal to lag up or down to a new note, it'll do it from wherever
>it was last played, _not_ from the last note that was played.
Well, of course it will. That's how portamento WORKS. At least, that's how
it works in analog machines, where an oscillator is really an oscillator
and not a few dozen lines of bad code....
|->
Seriously, tho, I regard this as much more of a feature than a bug. My
playing style utilizes the portamento in rotate mode all the time, and
I like the six-note hysteresis effect one gets....
>It would be
>nice if they had a function you could turn on that would set all the
>oscillators to the pitch you're currently playing, so portamento would work
>properly in rotate or reset modes.
Don't say "properly." Say "as I wish it to." Value judgements and all that.
Besides, I'm not convinced that it IS impossible. The Xpander never ceases
to amaze me on a regular basis. I'm sure Patrick, Dan and I can put our
heads together and determine for certain if it can or can't be done....
Using up my share of ellipsis,
--
metlay | "If you have been so devious as to get this message,
@minerva. | you will understand it, and you will deserve no sympathy."
phyast. |
pitt.edu | -- Donald Knuth, in the TeXBook's chapter on error messages.
Dennis Pelton
>In article <29D0BB...@orion.oac.uci.edu> d...@cafws1.eng.uci.edu (Dan Harkless) writes:
>> My gripe about portamento is on the Xpander (and presumably the
>>Matrix-12 as well). You can only use it effectively in unison mode or in
>>multi patches where the section is only assigned to one voice,
>
>circumstance assign only 1 voice to a zone, or anything. I asked someone from
>Oberheim once if they'd consider putting in a parameter in for unison mode
>that selects the number of voices that get stacked.
One of the reasons that I'm so enamored of the Chroma is the keyboard
algorithms. One is "pitch ordered" which allows you to use portamento
with chords--I LIKE IT. Another is "All channels polyphonic" which is
described as: The most recently played note will be assigned to all
voices. If two notes or more al held, the voices are divided among the
keys played (up to the polyphany limit). There are many others.
Dennis Pelton
dpe...@nyx.cs.du.edu
Patrick Robinson
[...]
> and not a few dozen lines of bad code....
> I like the six-note hysteresis effect one gets....
> heads together and determine for certain if it can or can't be done....
>
> Using up my share of ellipsis,
Been reading too many of my posts, it looks like. Besides ... you don't
have a share of ellipses ... I feel sure I long ago used up everyone's
"share"...
ellipsis [definition 1b]: a leap or sudden passage without logical
connectives from one topic to another...
:-/
-Patrick
p...@ramandu.ext.vt.edu...
Daniel Barrett
>>It would be nice if they had a function you could turn on that would set
>>portamento]...
In article <203...@unix.cis.pitt.edu> met...@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu (metlay) writes:
>...I'm not convinced that it IS impossible. The Xpander never ceases
>to amaze me on a regular basis. I'm sure Patrick, Dan and I can put our
>heads together and determine for certain if it can or can't be done....
I thought about it for a while, but don't see a convenient way to do
it. My first idea was to have a sequencer send a zero-velocity NOTE-ON
event whenever it wanted to "move" a voice from one note to another. But
this won't work in general because zero-velocity does not mean zero-volume.
You can get interesting, 3-voice polyphonic effects if you layer 3
monophonic zones, set to UNI-HIGH, UNI-LOW, and UNI-LAST, and use
portamento. The voices will jump around pseudo-properly. :-) It's almost
like the old ARP Odyssey's duophonic operation, if you use 2 zones set to
UNI-HIGH and UNI-LOW respectively.
For overkill, REAL synthesists use 12 identical monophonic patches
on 12 different MIDI channels (or even 12 different synths) and simulate
whatever the hell kind of poly-portamento they want. If it was good enough
for the early 1970's, it's good enough now. :-)
The main problem preventing a good method is that the Xpander/M12
leaves voices "sitting" at the last note they played, and there's no
built-in function for moving a voice other than the keyboard or a NOTE-ON
event.
I am tempted to say "it's impossible." But the last time I did that
publicly, someone came up with "Modulating Non-Modulatable Modulators" and
made me eat my words. Although they were delicious. :-)
Dan
//////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
| Dan Barrett -- Dept of Computer Science, Lederle Graduate Research Center |
| University of Massachusetts, Amherst, MA 01003 -- bar...@cs.umass.edu |
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////////////////////////////////////
Patrick Robinson
> In article <29D0BB...@orion.oac.uci.edu> d...@cafws1.eng.uci.edu (Dan Harkless) writes:
> >It would be
> >nice if they had a function you could turn on that would set all the
> >oscillators to the pitch you're currently playing, so portamento would work
> >properly in rotate or reset modes.
>
> to amaze me on a regular basis. I'm sure Patrick, Dan and I can put our
> heads together and determine for certain if it can or can't be done....
Perhaps. But before I blow a synapse on this, let's try to get just a little
less ambiguous about the behavior are you wanting...
Dan Harkless mentioned only being able to use portamento in "unison mode" or
multi patches where the "section" is only assigned to one voice. What's a
"section"? What exactly is the problem with running zones in one of the
unison modes?
Are you wanting to play a monophonic (e.g. lead) line in rotate mode, and have
portamento work in the Expected Way(tm)? That would strike me as nonsense.
What would a function such as you describe do if you were holding down more
than one key? I'm just having trouble understanding your idea of "properly
behaved" polyphonic portamento.
Why don't you just describe the scenario you want, and THEN I'll try to decide
whether or not it's possible.
8-|
-Patrick
p...@ramandu.ext.vt.edu
Dan Harkless
Hmmm... Sounds pretty darn nifty! Wish the Xpander had those.
Dan Harkless
>>
>> My gripe about portamento is on the Xpander (and presumably the
>>Matrix-12 as well). You can only use it effectively in unison mode or in
>>multi patches where the section is only assigned to one voice, because each
>>voice keeps oscillating where it left off after you stop playing it, and when
>>it gets the signal to lag up or down to a new note, it'll do it from wherever
>>it was last played, _not_ from the last note that was played.
>
>playing style utilizes the portamento in rotate mode all the time, and
>I like the six-note hysteresis effect one gets....
You like that, eh? Odd sort, you die-hard analog heads.
>>It would be
>>nice if they had a function you could turn on that would set all the
>>oscillators to the pitch you're currently playing, so portamento would work
>>properly in rotate or reset modes.
>
>Don't say "properly." Say "as I wish it to." Value judgements and all that.
Yes, well, I consider proper functioning to mean flexibility and
working in ways that lots of people would like. The way portamento is
implemented on the Xpander is just the lowest level way it could be done.
Each oscillator stays where it's played till it receives a new gate signal.
Since there's a computer in the Xpander they could have all sorts of simple
algorithms for assigning the voices, like for chords where you would play,
say, one triad, in rotate mode, and then play another triad higher than the
first, and the lowest note of the first chord would lag up to the lowest note
of the second chord, the middle to the middle, and the top to the top. Of
course, the dumb assignment methods could be offered as well. This would be
proper functioning. I take it the Fender Chroma offers a little more
flexibility in this regard.
Dan Harkless
>[...] But before I blow a synapse on this, let's try to get just a little
>less ambiguous about the behavior are you wanting...
>
>Dan Harkless mentioned only being able to use portamento in "unison mode" or
>multi patches where the "section" is only assigned to one voice. What's a
>"section"? What exactly is the problem with running zones in one of the
>unison modes?
>
>Are you wanting to play a monophonic (e.g. lead) line in rotate mode, and have
>portamento work in the Expected Way(tm)? That would strike me as nonsense.
>
>What would a function such as you describe do if you were holding down more
>than one key? I'm just having trouble understanding your idea of "properly
>behaved" polyphonic portamento.
>
>Why don't you just describe the scenario you want, and THEN I'll try to decide
>whether or not it's possible.
Well, there's a couple things that I'd want. One would be the
portamento chords I described in detail in another post (the example I gave
was triads where the 1, 3, and 5 of the first chord mapped to their brothers
in the second chord). The other thing would be a monophonic patch you could
put in rotate mode (so the decays don't get cut off every time you play a new
note) that would lag if you played it legato, but the note being lagged up to
would come up (or down) from the last note played, not the last note that
_that_voice_ played.
Ian Coleman
back) reading a synth review in 'Sound on Sound' which said:-
Why do they still put portmento on synths, nobody uses it any more
(with the possible exception of Rick Wakeman).
It's that kind of short sighted attitude that has reduced the flexibilty
of synths over the years!
---
Ian Coleman (i...@zoo.bt.co.uk) | "A Committee is a life form with
BTL, Martlesham Heath, England | six or more legs and no brain"
Patrick Robinson
> Well, there's a couple things that I'd want. One would be the
> portamento chords I described in detail in another post (the example I gave
> was triads where the 1, 3, and 5 of the first chord mapped to their brothers
> in the second chord).
As Dan Barrett has already mentioned, this particular case can approximated
by using 3 unison zones: one UNI-LOW, one UNI-LAST, one UNI-HIGH. Of course
UNI-LAST is not really the same as UNI-MIDDLE :-) and you'd have to be a bit
careful letting go of your chords (release all keys at same time), or the
UNI-LOW and UNI-HIGH notes will jump when you don't want them to... On the
other hand, if you're one of us "die-hard analog heads", you might like that...
;-}
> The other thing would be a monophonic patch you could
> put in rotate mode (so the decays don't get cut off every time you play a new
> note)
[part of the problem here is that 'monophonic in rotate mode' is a bit of an
oxymoron on the Xpander]
> that would lag if you played it legato, but the note being lagged up to
> would come up (or down) from the last note played, not the last note that
> _that_voice_ played.
Of course if its really a monophonic patch, then it has exactly one voice,
by definition, right? If one voice is allowed to die away while you play a
second (or third, fourth, etc. if decays are long enough), the patch isn't
monophonic... its n-voice polyphonic. However, depending on the exact effect
desired, you could set your envelopes so that they don't retrigger on new
gates (key presses). That would at least prevent the abrupt sound of decays
getting cut short. You could use an effects device if you really want to hear
ghosts of previous notes while the current note is sounding.
Have I solved anything? I dunno...
-Patrick
p...@ramandu.ext.vt.edu
Patrick Robinson
>>>It would be nice if they had a function you could turn on that would set
>>>all the oscillators to the pitch you're currently playing [for controlling
>>>portamento]...
>>...I'm not convinced that it IS impossible. The Xpander never ceases
>>to amaze me on a regular basis. I'm sure Patrick, Dan and I can put our
>>heads together and determine for certain if it can or can't be done....
Daniel Barrett writes
> I thought about it for a while, but don't see a convenient way to do
> it. My first idea was to have a sequencer send a zero-velocity NOTE-ON
> event whenever it wanted to "move" a voice from one note to another. But
> this won't work in general because zero-velocity does not mean zero-volume.
Convenient? You want *convenient*? Well, then... forget it! Besides... what
fun is "convenient"? Where's the *danger*? ;-]
At any rate, I had a weird idea, too (although I'm having trouble remembering
what problem it solves)... use a pedal or footswitch to set a high envelope
pre-attack delay, then quickly play your note(s) (for as many voices you want
to set to that "pitch"), then you're in business. Future notes will lag from
that point. It's rather similar to the chord-preloading trick Dan Barrett
described as a solution for how to use a foot switch as a kick drum pedal...
or maybe its not. I forget.
> I am tempted to say "it's impossible." But the last time I did that
> publicly, someone came up with "Modulating Non-Modulatable Modulators" and
> made me eat my words. Although they were delicious. :-)
Dan, how did this work? Was it something like using an LFO to sample the
modulator? Then you could modulate LFO rate and amplitude? That sounds
reasonable.
Or maybe it doesn't... :-)
-Patrick
p...@ramandu.ext.vt.edu
Dan Harkless
>> put in rotate mode (so the decays don't get cut off every time you play a new
>> note)
>
>[part of the problem here is that 'monophonic in rotate mode' is a bit of an
>oxymoron on the Xpander]
Mmmm. What I meant by monophonic was that you aren't allowed to play
chords with it. Because I said that if you hit more than one note at once,
it'll lag.
>
>> that would lag if you played it legato, but the note being lagged up to
>> would come up (or down) from the last note played, not the last note that
>> _that_voice_ played.
>
>Of course if its really a monophonic patch, then it has exactly one voice,
>by definition, right? If one voice is allowed to die away while you play a
>second (or third, fourth, etc. if decays are long enough), the patch isn't
>monophonic... its n-voice polyphonic. However, depending on the exact effect
>desired, you could set your envelopes so that they don't retrigger on new
>gates (key presses). That would at least prevent the abrupt sound of decays
Yes, that's a good point.
>getting cut short. You could use an effects device if you really want to hear
>ghosts of previous notes while the current note is sounding.
Well, reverb isn't the same as the fat effect of the previous note
decaying as you hit the next one, but it's something.
ca...@um.cc.umich.edu
question was: how (if possible at all) to get the WaveStation and/or the
E-mu Proteus to play portamento leads, using the Cakewalk sequencer by
sending the appropriate midi controller data????
does anyone know how to do this? is it possible? how does the SY99 do it?
is it part of its structure but not associated with the midi controllers?
Thanks,
Dan Casey
James McCartney
>Since there's a computer in the Xpander they could have all sorts of simple
>algorithms for assigning the voices, like for chords where you would play,
>say, one triad, in rotate mode, and then play another triad higher than the
>first, and the lowest note of the first chord would lag up to the lowest note
>of the second chord, the middle to the middle, and the top to the top. Of
I don't see how this could work, since it is impossible to play a chord
exactly simultaneously, the computer wouldn't know whether the first note
it gets is going to be the top, middle, bottom, or whtever note of the chord,
and it is going to have to choose immediately which voice to begin glissing.
--- james mccartney
Bob Kerns
Since it takes time to glide up there anyway, you can
have a small delay. Or it could refuse to gliss until
you had hit enough notes up there.
I'm not sure what it would sound like, though, if you had
a major triad portamenting to, say, a diminished. The
intermediate inharmonicity is hard for me to picture.
It would probably be either interesting or ugly, but not
neutral.
Another possibility is to use a single note to indicate
where to glide to, and have that move the entire chord,
retaining parallel intervals. This would avoid the
intermediate inharmonicity, but brings its own set of
musical problems.