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Earliest Doo Wop sound? - 1937
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RWC
Jul 28, 2021, 2:22:39 PM7/28/21
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Nonsense words from a lead singer is scat.
Nonsense words from background harmony singers that attempt to
imitate an instrument (e.g. Mills Brothers and the Gateway Quartet) is
not Doo Wop. And (imo) Doo Wop involves a word or phrase with more
than one syllable, and is not constant harmony 'hums' (e.g. early
Robins) or multiple repeats of single syllables (e.g. musical da-da
da-da-da-da-da...).
Norfolk Jazz Quartet - Suntan Baby Brown (Suntan Lady) [Decca] - 1937
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpSmPPXbJ2o
go to 1:50 to hear 'nonsense' backing vocals that do not imitate any
musical instrument
more pre-1950 proto 'doo wop' sounds ?:
The Five Breezes - Minute And Hour Blues [Bluebird] - 1940
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIvPSU40zUM
Bill Johnson And His Musical Notes - Pretty-Eyed Baby [RCA Victor] -
1947
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VuDPWOw73g
go to 1:37
Eddie Gorman & Group - Telephone Blues [DeLuxe] - Feb 1949
https://www.spontaneouslunacy.net/eddie-gorman-telephone-blues-deluxe-3209/
a hot number, not on U.S. YouTube it seems
in U.K. etc, one can pick from:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZzYgcsiYoU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K7-ciM-ySY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wO9InIKVws
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFTKP1cBQH4
go to 1:25 for female group's doo wop
(Sampson thinks their performance is 'fantastic';
his overall lunacy verdict, btw, 9/10)
DianeE
Jul 28, 2021, 11:27:51 PM7/28/21
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"Doo Wop" is a term that was applied retroactively. It wasn't used when
the music it describes was current. So you can pretty much make it mean
anything you want it to mean, I suppose.
I happen to like the Norfolk Jazz/Jubilee Quartet, and a lot of other
acts from the 1920s and 30s. I resist the notion that their singing was
"Doo Wop."
For me the operational definition of "Doo Wop" is: the more it sounds
like "In The Still Of The Nite" by The Five Satins, the more likely it
is that it's "Doo Wop."
the music it describes was current. So you can pretty much make it mean
anything you want it to mean, I suppose.
I happen to like the Norfolk Jazz/Jubilee Quartet, and a lot of other
acts from the 1920s and 30s. I resist the notion that their singing was
"Doo Wop."
For me the operational definition of "Doo Wop" is: the more it sounds
like "In The Still Of The Nite" by The Five Satins, the more likely it
is that it's "Doo Wop."
Sav...@aol.com
Jul 28, 2021, 11:50:18 PM7/28/21
to
On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 11:27:51 PM UTC-4, DianeE wrote:
> For me the operational definition of "Doo Wop" is: the more it sounds
> like "In The Still Of The Nite" by The Five Satins, the more likely it
> is that it's "Doo Wop."
I don't agree with that. "In The Still of The Nite" is an atypical doo wop song, with no real blow harmony and the group singing in unison a lot. Plus, your definition leaves things open for records with only one or two voices to be doo wop.
> For me the operational definition of "Doo Wop" is: the more it sounds
> like "In The Still Of The Nite" by The Five Satins, the more likely it
> is that it's "Doo Wop."
DianeE
Jul 29, 2021, 6:40:05 AM7/29/21
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I don't care if you agree or not--my whole point was that it means
whatever you want it to mean. It's not a good classification. And
certainly most casual listeners would refer to a duet like "Darling
Lorraine" as a "Doo Wop" record.
Bill B
Jul 29, 2021, 7:40:46 AM7/29/21
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On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 6:40:05 AM UTC-4, DianeE wrote:
I'm not a casual listener, but I consider some duos Doo-Wop, including "Darling Lorraine," the Teen Queens ("Eddie My Love"), Robert & Johnnie (We Belong Together"), and Marvin & Johnny (Cherry Pie").
DianeE
Jul 29, 2021, 8:22:26 AM7/29/21
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Me too. They're not R&B vocal group harmony, but they are "Doo Wop."
And there are plenty of single-artist records of songs based on the
4-chord structure most associated with "Doo Wop." Once again, my point
is that it's an ill-defined genre. "You know it when you hear it."
Sav...@aol.com
Jul 29, 2021, 9:01:01 AM7/29/21
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On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 8:22:26 AM UTC-4, DianeE wrote:
> On 7/29/2021 7:40 AM, Bill B wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 6:40:05 AM UTC-4, DianeE wrote:
> >> On 7/28/2021 11:50 PM, wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 11:27:51 PM UTC-4, DianeE wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> For me the operational definition of "Doo Wop" is: the more it sounds
> >>>> like "In The Still Of The Nite" by The Five Satins, the more likely it
> >>>> is that it's "Doo Wop."
> >>>
> >>> I don't agree with that. "In The Still of The Nite" is an atypical doo wop song, with no real blow harmony and the group singing in unison a lot. Plus, your definition leaves things open for records with only one or two voices to be doo wop.
> >>>
> >> ------------
> >> I don't care if you agree or not--my whole point was that it means
> >> whatever you want it to mean. It's not a good classification. And
> >> certainly most casual listeners would refer to a duet like "Darling
> >> Lorraine" as a "Doo Wop" record.
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm not a casual listener, but I consider some duos Doo-Wop, including "Darling Lorraine," the Teen Queens ("Eddie My Love"), Robert & Johnnie (We Belong Together"), and Marvin & Johnny (Cherry Pie").
> >
> ------------
> Me too. They're not R&B vocal group harmony, but they are "Doo Wop."
Every definition of doo wop I've seen says that it must include vocal group harmony.
> On 7/29/2021 7:40 AM, Bill B wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 6:40:05 AM UTC-4, DianeE wrote:
> >> On 7/28/2021 11:50 PM, wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 11:27:51 PM UTC-4, DianeE wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> For me the operational definition of "Doo Wop" is: the more it sounds
> >>>> like "In The Still Of The Nite" by The Five Satins, the more likely it
> >>>> is that it's "Doo Wop."
> >>>
> >>> I don't agree with that. "In The Still of The Nite" is an atypical doo wop song, with no real blow harmony and the group singing in unison a lot. Plus, your definition leaves things open for records with only one or two voices to be doo wop.
> >>>
> >> ------------
> >> I don't care if you agree or not--my whole point was that it means
> >> whatever you want it to mean. It's not a good classification. And
> >> certainly most casual listeners would refer to a duet like "Darling
> >> Lorraine" as a "Doo Wop" record.
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm not a casual listener, but I consider some duos Doo-Wop, including "Darling Lorraine," the Teen Queens ("Eddie My Love"), Robert & Johnnie (We Belong Together"), and Marvin & Johnny (Cherry Pie").
> >
> ------------
> Me too. They're not R&B vocal group harmony, but they are "Doo Wop."
Do you also think that "Cherry Pie" by Skip & Flip is doo wop?
Jim Colegrove
Jul 29, 2021, 9:15:05 AM7/29/21
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that's considered doo wop. It doesn't have what they call "ice cream
changes." That would be 1 - m6 - 4 (or m2) - 5.
Bill B
Jul 29, 2021, 1:00:31 PM7/29/21
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George Carlin was a Doo-Wop fan. He picked a few songs for Rhinos "Doo-Wop Box III" and he cited examples of his favorites while a teenager in a ArsenioHall appearance, all Doo-Wop. For those who haven't seen it, here's the performance of Cherry Pie" by him, minus the chatter about his teenage years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5YCQePkVfM
Sav...@aol.com
Jul 29, 2021, 1:22:59 PM7/29/21
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DianeE
Jul 29, 2021, 3:16:56 PM7/29/21
to
Right, the *typical* "Doo Wop" song has that chord progression. But
just like blues doesn't have to be 12-bar, there are plenty of "Doo Wop"
records that have different chords. Especially the remakes of pop
standards, for example my favorite Harptones record "The Masquerade Is
Over," or "Where Or When" by Dion & The Belmonts.
RWC
Jul 29, 2021, 4:46:30 PM7/29/21
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On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 08:22:23 -0400, DianeE <Dia...@NoSpam.net> wrote:
>>> ... my whole point was that it means
of doo wop but in practical commercial terms this comment is less than
helpful. The term "doo wop" or "doo-wop" is prevalent when classifying
50s popular music and so it *has* to have a commonly accepted
meaning, or near enough, for the 'purchasing' public.
>>> certainly most casual listeners would refer to a duet like "Darling
>>> Lorraine" as a "Doo Wop" record.
>>
That's *your* assumption; "Darling Lorraine" by the Knockouts is a
wonderful stirring record but imo it's controversially borderline doo
wop; *my* assumption is that many folk will *not* consider DL to be
'classic' doo wop - as understood by my imagined masses :)
The alleged doo wop component of "Darling Lorraine" could be
considered to be elaborate (and movingly ethereal) stretched out
*humming* as distinct from 'sets' of differing syllables delivered in
a more staccato fashion.
The harmony backing in "We Belong Together" 'sounds' half-way between,
or a mix of, "Darling Lorraine" and "Eddie My Love".
"Cherry Pie" gets a pass because of the oft repeated "dah-do-dah" ,
which shows that some duet records can indeed sneak into the
classification.
>Me too. They're not R&B vocal group harmony, but they are "Doo Wop."
Just to be clear, non-R&B, white sounding, harmony groups can be "Doo
Wop" as well.
> Once again, my point is that it's an ill-defined genre.
> "You know it when you hear it."
Perhaps the #1 cliche used in conversations about music, which
I too can strongly relate to.
This 'individual hyphenated-words/syllables' harmony backing as
distinct from stretched out 'humming' (even when the pitch changes)
plays an important part in defining and distinguishing "Doo Wop" - for
me.
>>> ... my whole point was that it means
>>> whatever you want it to mean. It's not a good classification.
There might not be an 'official' universally recognized definition
of doo wop but in practical commercial terms this comment is less than
helpful. The term "doo wop" or "doo-wop" is prevalent when classifying
50s popular music and so it *has* to have a commonly accepted
meaning, or near enough, for the 'purchasing' public.
>>> certainly most casual listeners would refer to a duet like "Darling
>>> Lorraine" as a "Doo Wop" record.
>>
wonderful stirring record but imo it's controversially borderline doo
wop; *my* assumption is that many folk will *not* consider DL to be
'classic' doo wop - as understood by my imagined masses :)
The alleged doo wop component of "Darling Lorraine" could be
considered to be elaborate (and movingly ethereal) stretched out
*humming* as distinct from 'sets' of differing syllables delivered in
a more staccato fashion.
>>
>> I'm not a casual listener, but I consider some duos Doo-Wop, including
>> "Darling Lorraine," the Teen Queens ("Eddie My Love"), Robert & Johnnie
>> (We Belong Together"), and Marvin & Johnny (Cherry Pie").
>>
"Eddie My Love", you're joking! :-)
>> I'm not a casual listener, but I consider some duos Doo-Wop, including
>> "Darling Lorraine," the Teen Queens ("Eddie My Love"), Robert & Johnnie
>> (We Belong Together"), and Marvin & Johnny (Cherry Pie").
>>
The harmony backing in "We Belong Together" 'sounds' half-way between,
or a mix of, "Darling Lorraine" and "Eddie My Love".
"Cherry Pie" gets a pass because of the oft repeated "dah-do-dah" ,
which shows that some duet records can indeed sneak into the
classification.
>Me too. They're not R&B vocal group harmony, but they are "Doo Wop."
Wop" as well.
> Once again, my point is that it's an ill-defined genre.
> "You know it when you hear it."
I too can strongly relate to.
This 'individual hyphenated-words/syllables' harmony backing as
distinct from stretched out 'humming' (even when the pitch changes)
plays an important part in defining and distinguishing "Doo Wop" - for
me.
Jim Colegrove
Jul 29, 2021, 5:11:29 PM7/29/21
to
changing. And certainly the bules is very malleable. You could do
"Cherry Pie"easily with those changes which makes me wonder why they
didn't. As it is, to me, it evokes a 6/8 Stroll rhythm which the bass
line causes.
Sav...@aol.com
Jul 29, 2021, 6:34:27 PM7/29/21
to
"Darling Lorraine" is certainly considered doo wop by at least 99% of NYC doo wop fans. We kept it in the doo wop section at Relic, and it was played as a doo wop all time on CBS-FM.
Jim Colegrove
Jul 29, 2021, 11:54:05 PM7/29/21
to
On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 15:34:26 -0700 (PDT), "Sav...@aol.com"
<Sav...@aol.com> wrote:
>"Darling Lorraine" is certainly considered doo wop by at least 99% of NYC doo wop fans. We kept it in the doo wop section at Relic, and it was played as a doo wop all time on CBS-FM.
I agree with that one. Never thought it wasn't.
<Sav...@aol.com> wrote:
>"Darling Lorraine" is certainly considered doo wop by at least 99% of NYC doo wop fans. We kept it in the doo wop section at Relic, and it was played as a doo wop all time on CBS-FM.
Dean F.
Jul 30, 2021, 2:01:54 AM7/30/21
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On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 7:40:46 AM UTC-4, bb...@optonline.net wrote:
> I'm not a casual listener, but I consider some duos Doo-Wop, including "Darling Lorraine," the Teen Queens ("Eddie My Love"), Robert & Johnnie (We Belong Together"), and Marvin & Johnny (Cherry Pie").
When I play that stuff on the radio, I call it "duo-wop."
> I'm not a casual listener, but I consider some duos Doo-Wop, including "Darling Lorraine," the Teen Queens ("Eddie My Love"), Robert & Johnnie (We Belong Together"), and Marvin & Johnny (Cherry Pie").
RWC
Jul 30, 2021, 8:42:35 AM7/30/21
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On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 14:22:35 -0400, RWC <lets...@opbox.com> wrote:
examples of Classic Doo Wop:
The Cleftones--"Little Girl of Mine" (1956),
The Del Vikings--"Come Go With Me" (1957),
The Five Satins--"In the Still of the Night" (1956),
The Flamingos--"I Only Have Eyes For You" (1959),
The Heartbeats--"A Thousand Miles Away" (1956),
The Monotones--"Book of Love" (1958),
The Silhouettes--"Get a Job" (1958), and
The Willows--"Church Bells May Ring" (1956)
For me, the records below are not Doo Wop (a *sub-category* of popular
harmony, black or white); rather, they fall within the more general
categories of R&B Harmony and Pop Harmony.
The El Dorados--"At My Front Door" (1955),
The Rays--"Silhouettes" (1957)
Quote:
The name {Doo Wop} comes from the kinds of musical background noises
that backup singers will make when they perform (ie doo-wop-doo-wop).
The style was popularized by Black American musicians in the
mid-twentieth century, though white groups became involved in the
scene as it gained popularity.
some links you might find interesting/entertaining:
The Knockouts, from North Bergen and Bayonne, New Jersey:
https://eastcoastmusichalloffame.org/nominees/auto-draft-25/
https://kimsloans.wordpress.com/tag/darling-lorraine-knockouts/
The History of Doo Wop
https://www.shsu.edu/~lis_fwh/book/roots_of_rock/Doo-Wop2.htm
It does seem that many people consider *any* 50s R&B group harmony
record to be "doo wop" {sigh!}
examples of Classic Doo Wop:
The Cleftones--"Little Girl of Mine" (1956),
The Del Vikings--"Come Go With Me" (1957),
The Five Satins--"In the Still of the Night" (1956),
The Flamingos--"I Only Have Eyes For You" (1959),
The Heartbeats--"A Thousand Miles Away" (1956),
The Monotones--"Book of Love" (1958),
The Silhouettes--"Get a Job" (1958), and
The Willows--"Church Bells May Ring" (1956)
For me, the records below are not Doo Wop (a *sub-category* of popular
harmony, black or white); rather, they fall within the more general
categories of R&B Harmony and Pop Harmony.
The El Dorados--"At My Front Door" (1955),
The Rays--"Silhouettes" (1957)
Quote:
The name {Doo Wop} comes from the kinds of musical background noises
that backup singers will make when they perform (ie doo-wop-doo-wop).
The style was popularized by Black American musicians in the
mid-twentieth century, though white groups became involved in the
scene as it gained popularity.
some links you might find interesting/entertaining:
The Knockouts, from North Bergen and Bayonne, New Jersey:
https://eastcoastmusichalloffame.org/nominees/auto-draft-25/
https://kimsloans.wordpress.com/tag/darling-lorraine-knockouts/
The History of Doo Wop
https://www.shsu.edu/~lis_fwh/book/roots_of_rock/Doo-Wop2.htm
It does seem that many people consider *any* 50s R&B group harmony
record to be "doo wop" {sigh!}
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