Bill's Thread - The Neons

[DianeE]

(This way if you want to post about something else next week you can
still use this thread.)

[Bill B]

On Sunday, August 1, 2021 at 9:16:51 PM UTC-4, DianeE wrote:
> (This way if you want to post about something else next week you can
> still use this thread.)

Thank you, Diane. I know you have at least a passing interest in this topic. The link Bruce posted to Savoy Records has another link to Tetra Records:
https://www.vocalgroupharmony.com/6ROWNEW/TetraRecords.htm. That link led me to an informative article on the Neons.

I went to high school for four years with John D'Avirro, misspelled in the linked article. We were casual friends. I remember singing with him in a group of four (one time only) for the music teacher. The song was
"When I Woke Up This Morning" by the Bopchords. I was the bass. I also remember picking up a copy of "The Wind" by the Diablos for him for 33 cents. He was in the original group that traveled to Harlem to be coached by Raoul Cita of the Harptones in his house. He also was on "Angel Face" and "Road To Romance." The Neons sang at many school dances at the time.

A few years back, after a discussion in The Doo-Wop Diner, I contacted John, who is an opthamologist in New Jersey and spent about an hour on the phone with him and his wife. He sent me two publicity shots of the group with him in it. I provided copies and a brief discussion of the original group to Robert Diskin, a white group collector (why would anyone be a white group collector?) who is cited in the link.

Anyway, John told me "Angel Face" was "I" by the Velvets speeded up.

I remember having another Tetra 45, "Good Morning Captain (Muleskinner Blues)" by Joe D. Gibson.

[DianeE]

There's a tropical fish people keep as pets, tiny but beautiful, called
a Neon Tetra. You wouldn't remember how this singing group got its
name, would you?

[Bill B]

I don't think I ever knew. But Tetra being the label and their record being it's first release, it seems more than logical they were named after the fish. I used to have a bunch of them when I had a small aquarium.

[md]

Or maybe they were remembering a great song by the Mills Brothers with this
great lyric in the last stanza:

Glow little glow-worm, turn the key on
You are equipped with tail-light neon

It was just about my favorite song growing up in the early 50s.


--md

remove "xx" from address

[Roger Ford]

On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 19:23:50 -0700 (PDT), Bill B <bb...@optonline.net>
wrote:

>On Sunday, August 1, 2021 at 9:16:51 PM UTC-4, DianeE wrote:

>> (This way if you want to post about something else next week you can=20
>> still use this thread.)
>
>Thank you, Diane. I know you have at least a passing interest in this topic=
>. The link Bruce posted to Savoy Records has another link to Tetra Records=
>:
>https://www.vocalgroupharmony.com/6ROWNEW/TetraRecords.htm. That link led m=

>e to an informative article on the Neons.
>

>I remember having another Tetra 45, "Good Morning Captain (Muleskinner Blue=
>s)" by Joe D. Gibson.

At our oldies store we used to sell every copy we could get of the two
rockabilly releases by Bill Flagg on Tetra.

ROGER FORD
-----------------------

"Spam Free Zone" - to combat unwanted automatic spamming I have added
an extra "b" in my e-mail address (mari...@bblueyonder.co.uk) Please
delete same before responding.Thank you!

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[RWC]

On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 19:23:50 -0700 (PDT), Bill B <bb...@optonline.net>
wrote:

>I provided copies and a brief discussion of the original group to Robert Diskin,
> a white group collector (why would anyone be a white group collector?)

Why wouldn't they, Bill?

[Sav...@aol.com]

Of course they would Geoff. There are millions of hearing impaired people out there.

[Dean F.]

On Monday, August 2, 2021 at 11:02:57 PM UTC-4, md wrote:

> Glow little glow-worm, turn the key on
> You are equipped with tail-light neon
>
> It was just about my favorite song growing up in the early 50s.

It was easily the best #1 pop hit of 1952.

[Dean F.]

On Sunday, August 1, 2021 at 10:23:51 PM UTC-4, bb...@optonline.net wrote:

> (why would anyone be a white group collector?)

Back around 1989, I decided to make a mixtape of what I considered good white doo-wop. I used a 90-minute cassette and had trouble filling it.

[Bill B]

On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 5:44:07 AM UTC-4, Dean F. wrote:

> On Sunday, August 1, 2021 at 10:23:51 PM UTC-4, bb...wrote:
>
> > (why would anyone be a white group collector?)
> Back around 1989, I decided to make a mixtape of what I considered good white doo-wop. I used a 90-minute cassette and had trouble filling it.

Was "Angel Face" on it? "Road To Romance?"

[Sav...@aol.com]

Just played "Angel Face" on Youtube. I could only take it until the lead came in with that disgustingly nasal voice. I shut it off after his first line "Angel Face, I Love You So."

[Bill B]

On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 8:59:04 AM UTC-4, Sav... wrote:

> On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 7:08:22 AM UTC-4, bb.. wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 5:44:07 AM UTC-4, Dean F. wrote:
> > > On Sunday, August 1, 2021 at 10:23:51 PM UTC-4, bb...wrote:
> > >
> > > > (why would anyone be a white group collector?)
> > > Back around 1989, I decided to make a mixtape of what I considered good white doo-wop. I used a 90-minute cassette and had trouble filling it.
> > Was "Angel Face" on it? "Road To Romance?"
> Just played "Angel Face" on Youtube. I could only take it until the lead came in with that disgustingly nasal voice. I shut it off after his first line "Angel Face, I Love You So."

Billboard called it a good job by the lead:
9/8/56
THE NEONS - TETRA 4444
Angel Face (69) The ingredients of this rhythm-ballad are familiar r&b elements, but a good job by the lead and the bouncy beat compensate for the lack of originality. Teenagers will have no trouble responding.

[Roger Ford]

Gotta agree and add that it was the first black vocal group record to
appear on the official NME UK chart in early 1953.

But I've just got hold of a book that purports to list all the records
that *should* have made the UK chart (had such a thing existed) before
1952.

Going right back to 1940 this lists The Mills Brothers topping said
chart in 1943 with "Paper Doll" plus assorted #1 hits throughout the
period from The Ink Spots including the immortal "Whispering Grass"

[Sav...@aol.com]

I just checked my files, I rated it as a 4. If I liked the lead it would probably be a 6.

[Sav...@aol.com]

That's like being the best female linebacker in football.

[RWC]

On Wed, 4 Aug 2021 06:14:57 -0700 (PDT), Bill B <bb...@optonline.net>
wrote:

>Billboard called it a good job by the lead:
>9/8/56
>THE NEONS - TETRA 4444
>Angel Face (69) The ingredients of this rhythm-ballad are familiar r&b elements

> but a good job by the lead and the bouncy beat compensate for the lack of originality.
> Teenagers will have no trouble responding.

The Neons - Angel Face [Gone] - re-issue 1960
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ed3khDcO3NU

More importantly, I'd like to draw attention to the substantial
comment made by the poster of the above link - it's about the
rise and fall of the Neons (from NYC).

I agree with Bruce, the lead on Angel Face, Frank Vignari, a
substitute first tenor, sung like he had a bad cold - the success of
"Angel Face" in the New York market (at the height of doo wop
releases) was likely due to significant marketing efforts, and to
other 'social' factors.

But congrats to the Neons if their brief success in '56 helped to
encourage the furtherment of white doo wop, which led to many very
pleasant white doo wop sides being recorded and released during the
cusp period.

[RWC]

On Wed, 4 Aug 2021 02:42:09 -0700 (PDT), "Dean F."
<soule...@gmail.com> wrote:

"The Glow-Worm" by the Mills Brothers was #1 in the "Most Played In
Jukeboxes" category in December, 1952.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zOoAPn3OjQ

Here are some other Billboard #1 songs from 1952, which both Dean and
Roger think are inferior to the rockin' but 'old-style' Mills record
when it comes to a rewarding listening experience:

"Cry" - Johnnie Ray and The Four Lads
"A Guy Is a Guy" - Doris Day
"Delicado" - Percy Faith and His Orchestra

my vote, is for the eternally magical instrumental "Delicado"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qgw2bWtRcmU

[Sav...@aol.com]

On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 1:13:59 PM UTC-4, RWC wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Aug 2021 02:42:09 -0700 (PDT), "Dean F."
> <soule...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Monday, August 2, 2021 at 11:02:57 PM UTC-4, md wrote:
> >
> >> Glow little glow-worm, turn the key on
> >> You are equipped with tail-light neon
> >>
> >> It was just about my favorite song growing up in the early 50s.
> >
> >It was easily the best #1 pop hit of 1952.
> "The Glow-Worm" by the Mills Brothers was #1 in the "Most Played In
> Jukeboxes" category in December, 1952.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zOoAPn3OjQ
>
> Here are some other Billboard #1 songs from 1952, which both Dean and
> Roger think are inferior to the rockin' but 'old-style' Mills record
> when it comes to a rewarding listening experience:
>
> "Cry" - Johnnie Ray and The Four Lads
> "A Guy Is a Guy" - Doris Day
> "Delicado" - Percy Faith and His Orchestra

"Cry" is 1951, and the other 2 are fucking awful.

[Dean F.]

On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 7:08:22 AM UTC-4, bb...@optonline.net wrote:

> Was "Angel Face" on it? "Road To Romance?"

No, because at the time I didn't know the Neons were white.

[Dean F.]

On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 10:07:30 AM UTC-4, Sav...@aol.com wrote:

> > It was easily the best #1 pop hit of 1952.
> That's like being the best female linebacker in football.

True, but I wasn't going to say that.

[Dean F.]

On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 1:13:59 PM UTC-4, RWC wrote:

> Here are some other Billboard #1 songs from 1952, which both Dean and
> Roger think are inferior to the rockin' but 'old-style' Mills record
> when it comes to a rewarding listening experience:
>
> "Cry" - Johnnie Ray and The Four Lads

I consider that a 1951 record.

> "A Guy Is a Guy" - Doris Day
> "Delicado" - Percy Faith and His Orchestra

Yes, I do like "The Glow Worm" better than either of those. Sorry.

[RWC]

yes, but it was #1 from Jan thru March in '52

> and the other 2 are fucking awful.

how do they rate compared to "I'm Henry VIII, I Am"?

[Sav...@aol.com]

"Henry" gets a 7, the other 2 suck shit.

[Dean F.]

On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 8:23:35 PM UTC-4, Sav...@aol.com wrote:

> > how do they rate compared to "I'm Henry VIII, I Am"?
> "Henry" gets a 7, the other 2 suck shit.

Sounds about right. I consider "Henry VIII" their most agreeable record.

[Sav...@aol.com]

Here are the Hermits records that are on my yearly lists:

1964
57 ¦ I'm Into Something Good ¦ Herman's Hermits

1965
64 ¦ Can't You Hear My Heartbeat ¦ Herman's Hermits
77 ¦ A Must To Avoid ¦ Herman's Hermits
123 ¦ I'm Henry The VIII, I Am ¦ Herman's Hermits
178 ¦ Just A Little Bit Better ¦ Herman's Hermits
181 ¦ Mrs. Brown You've Got A Lovely Daughter ¦ Herman's Hermits

1967
102 ¦ There's A Kind Of Hush ¦ Herman's Hermits

[Ken Whiton]

*-* Sun, 1 Aug 2021, at 19:23:50 -0700 (PDT),
*-* In Article <9c38c09c-62ed-4bc2...@googlegroups.com>,
*-* Bill B wrote
*-* About Re: Bill's Thread - The Neons

> On Sunday, August 1, 2021 at 9:16:51 PM UTC-4, DianeE wrote:
>> (This way if you want to post about something else next week you
>> can still use this thread.)
>
> Thank you, Diane. I know you have at least a passing interest in
> this topic. The link Bruce posted to Savoy Records has another link
> to Tetra Records:
> https://www.vocalgroupharmony.com/6ROWNEW/TetraRecords.htm. That
> link led me to an informative article on the Neons.

> I went to high school for four years with John D'Avirro,

[ ... ]

> A few years back, after a discussion in The Doo-Wop Diner, I
> contacted John, who is an opthamologist in New Jersey and spent
> about an hour on the phone with him and his wife. He sent me two
> publicity shots of the group with him in it. I provided copies and a
> brief discussion of the original group to Robert Diskin, a white
> group collector (why would anyone be a white group collector?) who
> is cited in the link.

<http://whitedoowopcollector.blogspot.com/2009/11/neonsmy-chickadee.html>

Ken Whiton
--
FIDO: 1:132/152
InterNet: kenw...@surfglobal.net.INVAL (remove the obvious to reply)

[Bill B]

On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 11:13:18 PM UTC-4, Ken Whiton wrote:
. I provided copies and a
> > brief discussion of the original group to Robert Diskin, a white
> > group collector (why would anyone be a white group collector?) who
> > is cited in the link.
> <http://whitedoowopcollector.blogspot.com/2009/11/neonsmy-chickadee.html>

I'm almost certain that's not Robert Diskin, but the link made me focus on the fact that
the photo is not the original group and the group pictured never made a record with all the members as shown.

[Bill B]

I neglected to mention your purpose was most likely to show there was at least one other white group collector in existence. :-}

[Sav...@aol.com]

There's lots of them, especially in Europe where they can't relate to the black sound.

[RWC]

On Wed, 4 Aug 2021 18:36:26 -0700 (PDT), "Sav...@aol.com"
<Sav...@aol.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 9:12:28 PM UTC-4, Dean F. wrote:
>> On Wednesday, August 4, 2021 at 8:23:35 PM UTC-4, Sav...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>Here are the Hermits records that are on my yearly lists:
>

>1965
>64 ¦ Can't You Hear My Heartbeat ¦ Herman's Hermits
>77 ¦ A Must To Avoid ¦ Herman's Hermits
>123 ¦ I'm Henry The VIII, I Am ¦ Herman's Hermits
>178 ¦ Just A Little Bit Better ¦ Herman's Hermits
>181 ¦ Mrs. Brown You've Got A Lovely Daughter ¦ Herman's Hermits

Are your current yearly lists for the 1960s at DDD?

[Sav...@aol.com]

No, these are my personal favorites.

[RWC]

this link includes an alpha list of 1500+ white and mixed race doo wop
groups
https://whitedoowopcollector.blogspot.com/

[RWC]

Quote:
The intention is to raise awareness of underappreciated artists/songs.

[RWC]

a discography and short bio for groups active in the 50s/60s,
might be found at: http://doo-wop.blogg.org/

for example, The Neons (of NYC, not 60s L.A.)
http://doo-wop.blogg.org/neons-1-c26502458

1956 - Angel face / Kiss me quickly (Tetra 4444)
1957 - Road of romance / My Chickadee (Tetra 4449)
1960 - Golden dream / Angel face (Gone 5090)
1974 - Golden Dreams / Honey Bunn (Vintage 1016)

======================================

Notepad++ can be used to generate a YouTube search list
from the above list:

Search > Replace
Find what: (.*) - (.*) \/ (.*) \((.*)$
Replace with: $2 - {artist}\n$3 - {artist}

to give, for example:

Angel face - Neons
Kiss me quickly - Neons
Road of romance - Neons
My Chickadee - Neons
Golden dream - Neons
Angel face - Neons
Golden Dreams - Neons
Honey Bunn - Neons

then manually remove any duplicates (re-issues) and any unwanted
sides, to leave:

Angel face - Neons
Kiss me quickly - Neons
Road of romance - Neons
My Chickadee - Neons
Golden dream - Neons

save to songs.txt in folder X

in folder X run (from 'dos' command prompt):
youtube-dl{.bat}

(I've recently enhanced youtube-dl.bat to also output the YouTube
*title* for the video found - to facilitate checking for validity...)

to get, in yturls.txt:

Angel face - Neons
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcmGjS2CAw8
Neons - Angel Face - Mid 50's NY Doo Wop Classic

Kiss me quickly - Neons
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbqq-Xd-Tmw
Neons - Kiss Me Quickly - Mid 50's Jump Doo Wop

Road of romance - Neons
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4ExqDD0d6A
NEONS - ROAD TO ROMANCE / MY CHICKADEE - TETRA 4449 - 1957

My Chickadee - Neons
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4ExqDD0d6A
NEONS - ROAD TO ROMANCE / MY CHICKADEE - TETRA 4449 - 1957

Golden dream - Neons
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQhv5aGuoOY
Neons - Golden Dreams - Great Doo Wop Ballad

[Bobby Diskin]

[Sav...@aol.com]

On Sunday, September 19, 2021 at 1:06:03 AM UTC-4, Bobby Diskin wrote:

Bobby Diskin?

Folks, we have a white group collector here. He didn't post anything, he just quoted another post, but we'll see if he sticks around.

[Bobby Diskin]

Hello Bill and others (hopefully I'm doing this right),

I happen to always collect Black Vocal Groups too. But yes, I am known as a White Group collector 'cause as a kid, in my neighborhood in Brooklyn, those were the groups that I'd see singing in the schoolyard and at the beach and that was the sound I first collected. But my collecting always included Black Vocal Groups too and more now than ever before. I stumbled upon your site last night and tried to write in but I thought I was screwing things up and so I erased my post but ........... you caught me sneaking away (whatever I left on your site was in error - I erased my original post as I wasn't sure what I was doing. Rocket Scientist I'm not). I wanted you guys to know that in the recent issue of Echoes Of The Past magazine, issue #137, that came out at the beginning of September ........... I did an article on the Neons. It includes recent interviews with John D'Avirro, Nick Bernini and Ed Augustyn who was the Neons guitar player, John D'Avirro's best friend and was considered an original Neon. Also I include info given to me by Frankie Vignari - the original lead singer of the Neons, back in 1990. Thirty years in the making, this article with many pictures of the original Neons, that were never published before - this article should clear up any issues on who the original Neons were and the misinformation that was given to Record Exchanger magazine, in an interview with one original and one not original Neon back in 1972. Each issue of this magazine goes into the Library / Archive section of the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame in Cleveland, Ohio and in the Country Music Foundation in Nashville, Tn. You can email the publisher Bob Belniak at .... echoe...@yahoo.com (don't forget the dot after echoes). Or call Bob up at 413 786-1929 for info on the publication. If this article doesn't clear up all the misinformation, on the Neons, you guys can email me for further clarification. Read about one of the first White Doo Wop Groups in the early days of Rock & Roll. Included is an adjunct chart the "Evolution of the White Group Sound" that starts off in 1953 and I ended it half way through 1958 - when this sound was firmly entrenched in Rock & Roll. Read about the Neons one week performance at the Apollo Theater, in the summer of 1955, after winning the amateur contest there (talk about which White Doo Wop Group appeared at the Apollo first - no one ever mentioned the Neons ....... but they were there before they recorded "Angel Face." Alan Freed, Monty Bruce, Raoul Cita, the Alan Freed Shows at the Brooklyn Paramount and one of the very first, if not the first White Doo Wop Group to attain popularity - from the streets of Brooklyn read "The Neons, The Real Neons From Borough Park, Brooklyn" in the recent issue of Echoes Of The Past magazine. Bobby Diskin ..... Brooklyn, NY.

PS - I've written three articles for "Echoes" in the last four issues. I'm contemplating more. One more thing - I believe the Tear Drops "The Stars Are Out Tonight" is a white group but their song is sung in the Black Vocal Group style of 1954. For all these years I've tried to find them or info on them and failed. No member ever turned up nor has any info from someone who knew the group - it's a mystery that might not ever be solved. I have them in my "Evolution" chart - but they're not singing in what became the White Group Sound later on - nor was this record widely known in 1954. The number 1 group, on the chart, were sort of a pop vocal group that had not only had the harmony of later White Groups but also had a bit of the Black Vocal Group Sound of the early 1950s in them. Sonny Till/Orioles covered this White Vocal Group's record in 1954 and that's good enough for me.

[Bill B]

Hi Bob,

Welcome! I'm happy to have provided you with pictures of the original group and happy you spoke to John D'Avirro recently.

I hope you stick around and find fellow collectors with who to communicate.

Who is the number one group on the chart whose record was covered by the Orioles? I don't think it was the Neons.

[Sav...@aol.com]

He must be referring to "Runaround" by the Three Chuckles.

[Sav...@aol.com]

On Sunday, September 19, 2021 at 4:56:42 PM UTC-4, Bobby Diskin wrote:
>

> PS - I've written three articles for "Echoes" in the last four issues. I'm contemplating more. One more thing - I believe the Tear Drops "The Stars Are Out Tonight" is a white group but their song is sung in the Black Vocal Group style of 1954.

Yes, THAT'S why it's a good record, it's sung in the style of the black groups.

The groups like the Neons that sang in the white style sound like shit to me. Actually, "Angel Face" sounds pretty good until the lead comes in with that horrendous nasal voice of his.

[DianeE]

On 9/19/2021 4:56 PM, Bobby Diskin wrote:
One more thing - I believe the Tear Drops "The Stars Are Out Tonight"
is a white group but their song is sung in the Black Vocal Group style
of 1954. For all these years I've tried to find them or info on them
and failed. No member ever turned up nor has any info from someone who
knew the group - it's a mystery that might not ever be solved. I have
them in my "Evolution" chart - but they're not singing in what became
the White Group Sound later on - nor was this record widely known in 1954.

------------
Why do you (I've heard this from others too) think they were white, if
no info on them is available? They sure don't sound white to me.

[Sav...@aol.com]

Clean the doody out of your ears. They are clearly white.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkTRA10mk00

[Sav...@aol.com]

Listen to their other records.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoX7l_vZ_Cg

[md]

On Sep 19, 2021 at 4:32:31 PM CDT, "Sav...@aol.com" <Sav...@aol.com> wrote:

> The groups like the Neons that sang in the white style sound like shit to me.

I see you haven't lost your knack for making newcomeers feel welcome.

--md

remove "xx" from address

[Sav...@aol.com]

On Sunday, September 19, 2021 at 10:53:51 PM UTC-4, md wrote:
> On Sep 19, 2021 at 4:32:31 PM CDT, "Sav...@aol.com" <Sav...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > The groups like the Neons that sang in the white style sound like shit to me.

> I see you haven't lost your knack for making newcomeers feel welcome.

So you don't agree that the white groups that sang in the white style sounded like shit?

Or you do agree, but would rather not state your opinion truthfully to spare poor Bob's feelings?

Believe me, he's been in this hobby for like 60 years and he's heard all the anti white groups talk for that entire time.

[Bobby Diskin]

It seems that a post I wrote up didn't get printed but on the topic of why would anyone be a white group collector. let me explain it from my vantage point. When the Black Vocal Group Style starting with the late 1940s Ravens and Orioles releases and going up to the mid 1950s, those that became Black Group Collectors and fans were those that were teenagers in the 1950s when this music and Alan Freed broke big. The Neons were a novelty, there were very few White Doo Wop Vocal Groups on record in 1956. Now, I was never a fan of the Neons - but I was born in 1952 and by 7 - 8 years old I started listening to vocal groups singing in my area of Brooklyn ..... and they were all white - that's the sound I heard in the street. I knew not of the earlier Black Vocal Group Style of the early to mid 1950s. I started buying records in 1961. My father, started teaching in Erasmus High in 1962 (he was a "ranked" handball player from 1935 to 1939 when he had to withdraw from tournament play due to a bad back ...... my father, Daniel Diskin, was two years older and played with Vic Hershkowitz who wasn't ranked yet. My mother taught at PS 225 in Brighton Beach). In 1962, one of my father's students, gave my father a box of about 150 records to give to me. In it were the Neons, Danny/Juniors, Dion/Berlmonts, etc. - all were from the late '50s to 1961- so what records would you like if you were given a box of these at 10 years old? My father also gave me his WMCA Goiod Guys Sweat Shirt that the students at Erasmus nominated him for. I knew not, of the earlier 1950s Black Vocal Group Sound (never heard of it). The earliest records, in the jukebox - in my Candy Store, were by Frankie Lymon/Teenagers. So to wrap this up - I knew not of Times Square Records as I was 13 years old ........ when it closed but ....... if it would've been, in my neighborhood, I would've been there! I didn't realize I was a record collector or that there were collectors until I turned 17 (summer of '69) and I met up with Val Shively as I entered Baruch College in September '69. I then met an older collector who lived in my building. I knew not of Alan Freed, the early Black Vocal Groups - but I did know of Murray The K's Blasts From The Past and Submarine Race Watching. So I do believe, the older fans of Vocal Group Records, who were teens in the mid 1950s were all fans of the Black Vocal Groups. But I also came into contact with collectors that were only 4 to 5 years older than I (Steve Bennet, Paul Heller, Eddie Engel, Paul Heller and Kenny Cohen) and found, for the most part, that they were White Vocal Group Collectors as was I. So I will state that the older collectors (in the U.S. - as overseas is a whole other ballgame) tended to be Black Vocal Group Collectors and the younger collectors ..... were the White Group Collectors (and in 1969, I was the baby of all vocal group collectors). Now, if you can't understand this, it's only because you don't want to! My friends, of my age, don't like the Black Vocal Harmony Groups or the White Groups ....... only the Four Seasons, Beatles/British Invasion, Motown, etc. In other words, dump on them ....... not on a White Group Collector. And btw, my childhood friend Ira Leslie (from Public School) - who's uncle was Jerry Winston (Onyx Records - Melvernne Distributors ....... Jerry Weinstein really) went to work for Morris Levy in 1980 and Ira can't stand any type of "Doo Wop" group! He's still in the industry and had a couple of hits, the past few years, with Sarah Dash (I think). Now I hope you guys can read this, as the last post I typed ........ disappeared. Us, "White Group Collectors" are not too bright - you guys know that ........ already!

[md]

On Sep 21, 2021 at 1:37:48 PM CDT, "Bobby Diskin" <bobbydi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I'm, not a collector, only a fan who has accumulated a very large number of
songs I like, so maybe I'm missing something, but I'm wondering which side
("White Group collectors" vs. "Black Group collectors") claims, for example,
"Tonite, Tonite" by the Mello-Kings. I liked it when it came out, and I was
surprised to find out later that the group was white. I knew that Dion and the
Belmonts, for example, were white, and I liked them, and I knew that the
Moonglows, for example, were black and I liked them, too. So unless by white
groups you mean the Four Aces or the Ames Brothers, I really have no idea what
the animus between collectors is about.

[Bobby Diskin]

> > Vic Hershkowitz, who wasn't ranked yet. My mother taught at PS 225 in Brighton

I believe I can clue you in. In 1957, the White "Doo Wop" Vocal Group Harmony Style was not fully formed yet. The Black Vocal Group Style was around since the late 1940s into the 1950s. This "White" style was in it's infancy but ....................it was starting to take shape - some of it came out of earlier "Pop" acts and some of it came out of the Black Harmony Groups. The Neons came out of both with the Three Chuckles pointing the way. The Mello Kings "Tonite, Tonite" was written by Billy Myles - a Black singer who had a hit with "The Joker." "Tonite, Tonite" by the Mello Kings, in 1957, was more in the style of the Black Vocal Groups, of the 1950s than Dion/Belmonts "I Wonder Why" (1958) which was the year that I feel the White "Doo Wop" Style was fully developed. That's why I wrote up the "Evolution of the White Group Sound" Chart , in the recent issue of "Echoes of the Past" magazine. I end the "Evolution" with "Little Star" by the Elegants in May 1958 as the White Group Sound, I feel, was now fully developed. Know this though .... if you play just about all the Mello Kings records after "Tonite, Tonite" you will find that just about all of them sound as "White" as can be. But remember, Vito Picone himself said that the Elegants were trying to sing in the style of the Heartbeats - but when their record came out .... it was a different style/sound than the Heartbeats. They didn't intend that to be but, most White Groups can't help but to sound White! As a post script ............ in late 1969, Rock Magazine, started hosting "Doo Wop Shows" at the Academy of Music, on 14th Street, in Manhattan. I remember going to the first or second show and thinking, for the first time, are these groups White or Black groups? Never thought of that before, as the Monotones were on the bill, and I was too young to remember seeing them on American Bandstand in 1958 ........ so I wondered are they a White or a Black group? And I was very curious to find out. But, I started learning very fast after that.

[Sav...@aol.com]

On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 3:03:04 PM UTC-4, md wrote:

> I really have no idea what the animus between collectors is about.

The animus is that those of us who like the black groups (I was born 5 years AFTER Bob, by the way, so there goes his theory). think that most of the records by the white groups suck....especially the ones that were not done in the style of the black groups.

The Earls, The Duprees, the Chimes, the Passions, the Mystics, the Skyliners, the Classics, etc.....even most of the Belmonts records, especially without Dion, are not any good according to the guys I hung around with. And most of the lesser known white group were just abysmal.

So the White group collectors were always getting their taste mocked by the dominant and much bigger group of black group collectors. Ed Engel even wrote a book called "White And Still Alright," which defended the white sound. I don't have the white sound as much as some of the other guys I hung out with, but I dislike most of it.

[md]

Okay. Between your explanation and Bobby's, I get what's going on between the
"sides". Obviously, most of my favorite vocal groups are black, and, of
course, as Bobby points out, the black groups were at it a whole lot longer
than the white groups, which leads me to wonder how many white group records
there are to collect compared to the vast number of black group records. In
fact, the heyday of the white groups seems limited to about three years in the
late 50s. By the early 60s, it seems, the whole white group doowop thing had
morphed into really successful white groups like the Beach Boys and the Four
Seasons, and then moved on to England, and then we're talking about a whole
other thing.

[Sav...@aol.com]

On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 11:01:34 PM UTC-4, md wrote:

> Okay. Between your explanation and Bobby's, I get what's going on between the
> "sides". Obviously, most of my favorite vocal groups are black, and, of
> course, as Bobby points out, the black groups were at it a whole lot longer
> than the white groups, which leads me to wonder how many white group records
> there are to collect compared to the vast number of black group records. In
> fact, the heyday of the white groups seems limited to about three years in the
> late 50s. By the early 60s, it seems, the whole white group doowop thing had
> morphed into really successful white groups like the Beach Boys and the Four
> Seasons, and then moved on to England, and then we're talking about a whole
> other thing.

In this context "white group" means white doo wop vocal group, which has nothing to do with the Beach Boys or any of the English bands. The Four Seasons still had some doo wop in them in like 1962 and 1963, and they are another white group that the black group collectors thought were awful.

There are a huge shitload of white group records between like 1958 and even into the mid-60s. Most are obscure things that were not any kind of hits. Even you would think that most of them sucked.

Here's an example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyo3Zu9KMb8

[Sav...@aol.com]

Here's another video with a bunch of white group records.

[md]

On Sep 21, 2021 at 11:09:32 PM CDT, "Sav...@aol.com" <Sav...@aol.com> wrote:

> In this context "white group" means white doo wop vocal group, which has
> nothing to do with the Beach Boys or any of the English bands.

The Beach Boys cetainly started out as a "white vocal group." The fact that
they had a mad genius among them, who stole Chuck Berry melodies and Phil
Spector studio techniques, and went to whole new sounds as they developed,
doesn't negate that. You're just tyoo young to have experienced the
transitions the way people my age did.

In much the same way the Miracles and the Temptations started out as "black
vocal groups." And the Beatles, too, might be said to have started with vocal
group sounds. Go listen to some of the stuff that got recorded on the BBC
tapes.

[md]

On Sep 21, 2021 at 11:09:32 PM CDT, "Sav...@aol.com" <Sav...@aol.com> wrote:

> There are a huge shitload of white group records between like 1958 and even
> into the mid-60s. Most are obscure things that were not any kind of hits. Even
> you would think that most of them sucked.
>
> Here's an example.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyo3Zu9KMb8

You don't have to convince me that a lot of white vocal group records were
bad.

[Sav...@aol.com]

On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 9:21:29 AM UTC-4, md wrote:
> On Sep 21, 2021 at 11:09:32 PM CDT, "Sav...@aol.com" <Sav...@aol.com> wrote:

> The Beach Boys certainly started out as a "white vocal group."

But not a white "Doo Wop" vocal group. That's the difference. The White Group Collectors do not collect the Beach Boys, or the Lettermen, or any other white vocal group that is not singing doo wop.