"The Great American Novel"

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Zebra Corp.

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Jun 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/25/00
to
listening to "The Wake Up Bomb" last night, I remarked, why is it that
th adage "The Great American Novel" exists? Who coined that? In what way
is "the novel" an American thing? Do Americans credit themselves with
everything? Was Dostoevski an American?

--
- Zebra Corp.

kfj

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Jun 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/25/00
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Zebra Corp. <zebr...@who.net> wrote in message
news:zebracorp-E1D74...@news.ym1.on.wave.home.com...

hon, stop smoking crack before posting. In no way does the phrase the
great american novel imply that people from the US were the first to
write a novel. the phrase is about writing the best novel by a US
citizen. tough to figure out, i realize.

snarky k


--
--
.sig pending
karenfj at hotmail dot com is the correct address.

jeff reichman

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Jun 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/25/00
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>> listening to "The Wake Up Bomb" last night, I remarked, why is it that
>> th adage "The Great American Novel" exists? Who coined that? In what
>way
>> is "the novel" an American thing? Do Americans credit themselves with
>> everything? Was Dostoevski an American?
>
>hon, stop smoking crack before posting. In no way does the phrase the
>great american novel imply that people from the US were the first to
>write a novel. the phrase is about writing the best novel by a US
>citizen. tough to figure out, i realize.
>


LOL. oh god, that was funny.

jeff
* * *
http://www.jeffreichman.com

music, writing and more.

kfj

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Jun 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/25/00
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jeff reichman <jrrei...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000625161022...@ng-fn1.aol.com...

> >> listening to "The Wake Up Bomb" last night, I remarked, why is it
that
> >> th adage "The Great American Novel" exists? Who coined that? In
what
> >way
> >> is "the novel" an American thing? Do Americans credit themselves
with
> >> everything? Was Dostoevski an American?
> >
> >hon, stop smoking crack before posting. In no way does the phrase the
> >great american novel imply that people from the US were the first to
> >write a novel. the phrase is about writing the best novel by a US
> >citizen. tough to figure out, i realize.
> >
>
>
> LOL. oh god, that was funny.

thanks, i think. did you mean me or the first poster? i thought my eyes
wide shut remark or the spicies post was funnier, i wasn't even warmed
up to my normal snarkiness when i posted this. ;)

-k
who promises tomorrow to post on-topic (SOTW - Hope) and be much nicer.

Justin Rondeboom

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Jun 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/25/00
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i always thought that was a book by Mark Twain...

"kfj" <kar...@dontlikebelong.comma> wrote in message
news:e5vpWEt3$GA.293@cpmsnbbsa09...


> Zebra Corp. <zebr...@who.net> wrote in message
> news:zebracorp-E1D74...@news.ym1.on.wave.home.com...

> > listening to "The Wake Up Bomb" last night, I remarked, why is it that
> > th adage "The Great American Novel" exists? Who coined that? In what
> way
> > is "the novel" an American thing? Do Americans credit themselves with
> > everything? Was Dostoevski an American?
>
> hon, stop smoking crack before posting. In no way does the phrase the
> great american novel imply that people from the US were the first to
> write a novel. the phrase is about writing the best novel by a US
> citizen. tough to figure out, i realize.
>

> snarky k

jeff reichman

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Jun 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/26/00
to
>> LOL. oh god, that was funny.
>
>thanks, i think. did you mean me or the first poster? i thought my eyes
>wide shut remark or the spicies post was funnier, i wasn't even warmed
>up to my normal snarkiness when i posted this. ;)


No, you said *exactly* what I was going to post. I hit reply to your post,
quoted, and realized that I had absolutely nothing to add. I mean, the term
"great American novel" has been thrown around ever since Huck Finn was
published in 188?, and I've *never* heard anyone interpret it as the first
poster did.

You post just had me tickled.

Greedo

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Jun 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/26/00
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The Wizard of Oz?

Not that that adds anything...


jeff reichman <jrrei...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20000625210535...@ng-fv1.aol.com...

the itchy glowbo blow

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Jun 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/26/00
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>i always thought that was a book by Mark Twain...

who i've just recently found out is my great great great uncle. i mean..i've
known since i was very little that i was related to him, but i could never
remember exactly _how_.


*~*~
http://www.angelfire.com/md/RoadSafety
---
"this boy and girl they gathered pearls of wisdom falling from his mouth,
wash off the blood, wash off the 1 5 1"
{r.e.m.}

»Q«

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Jun 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/26/00
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"Zebra Corp." <zebr...@who.net> wrote in message news:zebracorp-A0299...@news.ym1.on.wave.home.com...
> In article <e5vpWEt3$GA.293@cpmsnbbsa09>, "kfj"
> <kar...@dontlikebelong.comma> wrote:
>
> >Zebra Corp. <zebr...@who.net> wrote in message
> >news:zebracorp-E1D74...@news.ym1.on.wave.home.com...
> >> listening to "The Wake Up Bomb" last night, I remarked, why is it that
> >> th adage "The Great American Novel" exists? Who coined that? In what
> >way
> >> is "the novel" an American thing? Do Americans credit themselves with
> >> everything? Was Dostoevski an American?
> >
> >hon, stop smoking crack before posting. In no way does the phrase the
> >great american novel imply that people from the US were the first to
> >write a novel. the phrase is about writing the best novel by a US
> >citizen. tough to figure out, i realize.
>
> Wouldn't that be "the greatEST American Novel" then? Clearly this phrase
> is attributing the novel, the great, classic thing that is a fictional
> book-based story, to America. The great AMERICAN novel.
>
> Usually I'm pretty moderate when it comes to anti-American sentiments,
> but the realisation that this saying has ingrained itself into my
> subconscious was very offputting to me. The United States just radiates
> propaganda of its "greatness" - when in fact it is one of the most, if
> not THE most, shamefully hypocritical societies on earth right now. So
> while other countries just have novels, the United States Of America has
> THE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL. It's just the type of nationalistic bullshit
> I'd expect from the most self-absorbed, pretentious country in the world.
>
> --
> - Zebra Corp.


Zebra Corp.

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Jun 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/26/00
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In article <20000625210535...@ng-fv1.aol.com>,
jrrei...@aol.com (jeff reichman) wrote:

>>> LOL. oh god, that was funny.
>>
>>thanks, i think. did you mean me or the first poster? i thought my eyes
>>wide shut remark or the spicies post was funnier, i wasn't even warmed
>>up to my normal snarkiness when i posted this. ;)
>
>
>No, you said *exactly* what I was going to post. I hit reply to your
>post,
>quoted, and realized that I had absolutely nothing to add. I mean, the
>term
>"great American novel" has been thrown around ever since Huck Finn was
>published in 188?, and I've *never* heard anyone interpret it as the first
>poster did.

where do you live?

--
- Zebra Corp.

»Q«

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Jun 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/26/00
to

I believe the notion of 'the Great American Novel' survives from a time when there were no great American novels. The world of literary criticism was extremely eurocentric, and U.S. novels were treated as almost worthless. It was the hope of U.S. literary types that someone would write The Great American Novel so that the world would have to take notice, and hopefully there would be a more level field for future reviews. I'm not too sure about all that I've just written, and I'm not about to waste time researching it. However, you might want to check into it before crying 'bullshit' anymore, especially if you're going to get upset enough to shout about it.

»Q«
--
If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the precipitate.
- S. Wright


Zebra Corp.

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Jun 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/26/00
to
In article <e5vpWEt3$GA.293@cpmsnbbsa09>, "kfj"
<kar...@dontlikebelong.comma> wrote:

>Zebra Corp. <zebr...@who.net> wrote in message
>news:zebracorp-E1D74...@news.ym1.on.wave.home.com...
>> listening to "The Wake Up Bomb" last night, I remarked, why is it that
>> th adage "The Great American Novel" exists? Who coined that? In what
>way
>> is "the novel" an American thing? Do Americans credit themselves with
>> everything? Was Dostoevski an American?
>
>hon, stop smoking crack before posting. In no way does the phrase the
>great american novel imply that people from the US were the first to
>write a novel. the phrase is about writing the best novel by a US
>citizen. tough to figure out, i realize.

Wouldn't that be "the greatEST American Novel" then? Clearly this phrase
is attributing the novel, the great, classic thing that is a fictional
book-based story, to America. The great AMERICAN novel.

Usually I'm pretty moderate when it comes to anti-American sentiments,
but the realisation that this saying has ingrained itself into my
subconscious was very offputting to me. The United States just radiates
propaganda of its "greatness" - when in fact it is one of the most, if
not THE most, shamefully hypocritical societies on earth right now. So
while other countries just have novels, the United States Of America has
THE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL. It's just the type of nationalistic bullshit
I'd expect from the most self-absorbed, pretentious country in the world.

--
- Zebra Corp.

Zebra Corp.

unread,
Jun 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/26/00
to
In article <8j8738$16l$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>, "»Q«"
<Dodgeball...@usa.net> wrote:

>"Zebra Corp." <zebr...@who.net> wrote in message

>news:zebracorp-A0299...@news.ym1.on.wave.home.com...

>I believe the notion of 'the Great American Novel' survives from a time
>when there were no great American novels. The world of literary criticism
>was extremely eurocentric, and U.S. novels were treated as almost
>worthless. It was the hope of U.S. literary types that someone would
>write The Great American Novel so that the world would have to take
>notice, and hopefully there would be a more level field for future
>reviews. I'm not too sure about all that I've just written, and I'm not
>about to waste time researching it. However, you might want to check into
>it before crying 'bullshit' anymore, especially if you're going to get
>upset enough to shout about it.

it doesn't mean the United States isn't trash.

--
- Zebra Corp.

Zebra Corp.

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Jun 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/26/00
to
In article <8j80fh$501$1...@news01.cit.cornell.edu>,
ronh...@clarityconnect.com wrote:

>"Zebra Corp." <zebr...@who.net> dreamed of being naked before an
>audience and saying:


>>listening to "The Wake Up Bomb" last night, I remarked, why is it that
>>th adage "The Great American Novel" exists? Who coined that? In what way
>>is "the novel" an American thing? Do Americans credit themselves with
>>everything? Was Dostoevski an American?
>

>Okay, *now* who's trolling? You can't be this confused about such a simple
>phrase, Mr. Zebra Corp. Just think about it for a moment before losing
>your
>temper, huh? If I said something about the "big red car", it wouldn't
>imply
>that all cars are red, now would it?
>
>The "Great American Novel" is just what it sounds like it would be, a
>great
>novel about America (which, whether you like it or not, is colloquially
>equated with the U.S. by most of the world). Since the novel is
>traditionally
>and commonly considered a genre about society and social history (as plays
>are
>often considered the genre of character, short stories the genre of
>incident/plot, and poems the genre of abstract emotion), such a great
>novel
>would necessarily inform readers of "great truths" about life in U.S.
>culture,
>a topic which generally interests most people who live in the U.S. and/or
>read
>novels -- hence the eternal hope that some brilliant writer will write a
>Great
>American Novel.
>
>The phrase is a commonplace, even a cliche, in (again, American) academic
>and
>writerly circles -- basically, every young American aspiring writer wants
>to
>write the "Great American Novel" and take the American literary world by
>storm
>with her or his brilliant insights.
>
>But this isn't really what you wanted, a reasonable explanation, was
>it? Methinks someone is simply a tad hyper-sensitive about the U.S. and
>was
>looking for an excuse to rant about arrogant "Americans". Eh?

guilty as charged.

--
- Zebra Corp.

Ron Henry

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Jun 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/26/00
to
"Zebra Corp." <zebr...@who.net> dreamed of being naked before an audience
and saying:

>ronh...@clarityconnect.com wrote:
>>But this isn't really what you wanted, a reasonable explanation, was
>>it? Methinks someone is simply a tad hyper-sensitive about the U.S. and
>>was looking for an excuse to rant about arrogant "Americans". Eh?
>
>guilty as charged.

Well, then you're a simple bigot on whom my effort trying to be reasonable was
wasted. *plonk*

Ron "two killfile additions in one day, wow!" Henry

--
Ron Henry ronh...@clarityconnect.com
http://people2.clarityconnect.com/webpages6/ronhenry/

Ron Henry

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Jun 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/26/00
to
"Zebra Corp." <zebr...@who.net> dreamed of being naked before an audience and saying:
>listening to "The Wake Up Bomb" last night, I remarked, why is it that
>th adage "The Great American Novel" exists? Who coined that? In what way
>is "the novel" an American thing? Do Americans credit themselves with
>everything? Was Dostoevski an American?

Okay, *now* who's trolling? You can't be this confused about such a simple
phrase, Mr. Zebra Corp. Just think about it for a moment before losing your
temper, huh? If I said something about the "big red car", it wouldn't imply
that all cars are red, now would it?

The "Great American Novel" is just what it sounds like it would be, a great
novel about America (which, whether you like it or not, is colloquially
equated with the U.S. by most of the world). Since the novel is traditionally
and commonly considered a genre about society and social history (as plays are
often considered the genre of character, short stories the genre of
incident/plot, and poems the genre of abstract emotion), such a great novel
would necessarily inform readers of "great truths" about life in U.S. culture,
a topic which generally interests most people who live in the U.S. and/or read
novels -- hence the eternal hope that some brilliant writer will write a Great
American Novel.

The phrase is a commonplace, even a cliche, in (again, American) academic and
writerly circles -- basically, every young American aspiring writer wants to
write the "Great American Novel" and take the American literary world by storm
with her or his brilliant insights.

But this isn't really what you wanted, a reasonable explanation, was

it? Methinks someone is simply a tad hyper-sensitive about the U.S. and was
looking for an excuse to rant about arrogant "Americans". Eh?

Ron

Ron Henry

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Jun 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/26/00
to
pulps...@aol.computer (the itchy glowbo blow) dreamed of being naked before
an audience and saying:

>>i always thought that was a book by Mark Twain...


>
>who i've just recently found out is my great great great uncle. i mean..i've
>known since i was very little that i was related to him, but i could never
>remember exactly _how_.

I would be pretty psyched to be related to ol' Mr. Clemens, myself. Very cool,
Jennifer.

the itchy glowbo blow

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Jun 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/26/00
to
>I would be pretty psyched to be related to ol' Mr. Clemens, myself. Very
>cool,
>Jennifer.
>
>Ron

yeah, i've always thought so :)
and i always mention it whenever someone mentions the man.
it's a shame i didn't know my great grandmother's sister..she was a good 15
years older than my great grandma and i'm sure had some stories to tell about
him..

i'm also related to the barrymore's, but again i can never remember how..i'll
have to check up on that.

Emerick Rogul

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Jun 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/26/00
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Zebra Corp writes:

: it doesn't mean the United States isn't trash.

Wow. Who shook the tree and made all the ignoramuses fall out this
week? It's a goddamn deluge.

-Emerick
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Emerick Rogul /\/ "i've said many, many, many unkind things about
eme...@cs.bu.edu /\/ philadelphia, and i meant every one of them."
----------------------------------------------------------- david lynch

Become the sky

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Jun 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/26/00
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On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:26:21 GMT, ronh...@clarityconnect.com (Ron
Henry) wrote:

>"Zebra Corp." <zebr...@who.net> dreamed of being naked before an audience
>and saying:


>
>>ronh...@clarityconnect.com wrote:
>>>But this isn't really what you wanted, a reasonable explanation, was
>>>it? Methinks someone is simply a tad hyper-sensitive about the U.S. and
>>>was looking for an excuse to rant about arrogant "Americans". Eh?
>>

>>guilty as charged.
>
>Well, then you're a simple bigot on whom my effort trying to be reasonable was
>wasted. *plonk*

You're learning something that people in alt.music.canada were already
aware of.

VoiceOfHarold

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Jun 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/26/00
to
> Wouldn't that be "the greatEST American Novel" then? Clearly this phrase
> is attributing the novel, the great, classic thing that is a fictional
> book-based story, to America. The great AMERICAN novel.

Maybe you're right about some of the American self-glorification, United
Bluff and so on and so forth, but not in this case.
Simply: "American" and "great" are two adjectives. If "the Novel" should
have been great AND American (their idea or whatever) there would have been
a comma. Like "The great, American Novel". As it is in this case (without
comma), "great" is reffering only to the adjective "American" not "the
Novel".
So: The great American Novel!


------
"I am ashamed to say.
Ugly girls know their fate.
Anybody can get laid."

Zebra Corp.

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Jun 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/26/00
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In article <vuozoo8...@csa.bu.edu>, Emerick Rogul
<eme...@csa.bu.edu> wrote:

>Zebra Corp writes:
>
>: it doesn't mean the United States isn't trash.
>
>Wow. Who shook the tree and made all the ignoramuses fall out this
>week? It's a goddamn deluge.

Exsqueeze me? You think it's an *ignorant* comment to dislike the United
States and all it stands for? Ever listen to their national anthem?

--
- Zebra Corp.

kfj

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Jun 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/26/00
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Zebra Corp. <zebr...@who.net> wrote in message
news:zebracorp-35272...@news.ym1.on.wave.home.com...

because, lord knows, if i were going to construct an argument for hating i'd
start with the anthem, not anything like, i don't know, economic policies,
imperialist foreign policy, historical genocides, japanese internment . . .
nope, i'm going to start with the fucking anthem.

thank goodness i realize that you hardly represent all of canada, or i'd be
cheering on the south park invasion of a country full of idiots like you.

having a bad day,
should not feed chummer troll,
-k


--
I never like saying, What you're doing . . . it's fucked up. - Peter Buck

Emerick Rogul

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Jun 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/26/00
to
Zebra Corp writes:

: Exsqueeze me? You think it's an *ignorant* comment to dislike the


: United States and all it stands for? Ever listen to their national
: anthem?

Erm. Have you switched to decaf recently or are you just "like this?"

-Emerick
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Emerick Rogul /\/ "when i'm getting serious about a girl, i show
eme...@cs.bu.edu /\/ her 'rio bravo' and she better fucking like it."
------------------------------------------------------- quentin tarantino

Emerick Rogul

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Jun 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/26/00
to
Zebra Corp writes:

: guilty as charged.

Idiot as presumed.

-Emerick
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Emerick Rogul /\/ "i was going to take every drug known to the
eme...@cs.bu.edu /\/ human race and shag anything that moved."
------------------------------------------------- 'ecstasy', irvine welsh

Greedo

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Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
I believe you misunderstand the lyric.

'The Great American Novel' is a phrase that has been around for a long time.
I believe it came about when America realised that there were no great
intrinsically American novels. Now of course there are many (mostly by
Stephen King - kidding).

It doesn't mean that the 'novel' is American. It is just like an English
person searching for the 'great English fish and chips' or an Australian
looking for a 'great Aussie beer'.

While I pretty much agree with your sentiments, in this case I think you are
just mistaken.

"You say I'm beautiful, well I can't help it."

Zebra Corp. <zebr...@who.net> wrote in message

news:zebracorp-A0299...@news.ym1.on.wave.home.com...
> In article <e5vpWEt3$GA.293@cpmsnbbsa09>, "kfj"
> <kar...@dontlikebelong.comma> wrote:
>

> >Zebra Corp. <zebr...@who.net> wrote in message

> >news:zebracorp-E1D74...@news.ym1.on.wave.home.com...


> >> listening to "The Wake Up Bomb" last night, I remarked, why is it that
> >> th adage "The Great American Novel" exists? Who coined that? In what
> >way
> >> is "the novel" an American thing? Do Americans credit themselves with
> >> everything? Was Dostoevski an American?
> >

> >hon, stop smoking crack before posting. In no way does the phrase the
> >great american novel imply that people from the US were the first to
> >write a novel. the phrase is about writing the best novel by a US
> >citizen. tough to figure out, i realize.
>

> Wouldn't that be "the greatEST American Novel" then? Clearly this phrase
> is attributing the novel, the great, classic thing that is a fictional
> book-based story, to America. The great AMERICAN novel.
>

> Usually I'm pretty moderate when it comes to anti-American sentiments,
> but the realisation that this saying has ingrained itself into my
> subconscious was very offputting to me. The United States just radiates
> propaganda of its "greatness" - when in fact it is one of the most, if
> not THE most, shamefully hypocritical societies on earth right now. So
> while other countries just have novels, the United States Of America has
> THE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL. It's just the type of nationalistic bullshit
> I'd expect from the most self-absorbed, pretentious country in the world.
>

> --
> - Zebra Corp.

Ed Morrish

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Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
Great. Now we're going to get how "Mark Twain was misunderstood. I don't
understand why you must be all being mean to me. He is family, and he
was actual man for FREEEDOM"....

;-)

Ed

the itchy glowbo blow

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Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to

LOL!

i don't know enough about the man to know if he was misunderstood or not

jeff reichman

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Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
>who i've just recently found out is my great great great uncle. i mean..i've
>known since i was very little that i was related to him, but i could never
>remember exactly _how_.

That has got to be the coolest bloodline I've heard of since Joe McCarthy.
Seriously though, I'd be bragging to everyone if I were related to Mark Twain.

jeff reichman

unread,
Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
>Wouldn't that be "the greatEST American Novel" then? Clearly this phrase
>is attributing the novel, the great, classic thing that is a fictional
>book-based story, to America. The great AMERICAN novel.


Dude, the phrase GREAT American Novel is/will be applied to the first american
novel that truly embodies the United States. Some say Huck Finn did it.
Others disagree. The point is, the US is so incredibly complex that one story
from one point of view can't possibly embody all of the US.

Get off your soapbox.

Ron Henry

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Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
jrrei...@aol.com (jeff reichman) dreamed of being naked before an audience and saying:

>Others disagree. The point is, the US is so incredibly complex that one story
>from one point of view can't possibly embody all of the US.

I completely agree, Jeff. Just for the record, over the years various
people/professors have told me all of the following are (incarnations of) The
Great American Novel:

The Scarlet Letter (Hawthorne)
Moby Dick (Melville)
The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn (Twain)
Sister Carrie (Dreiser)
My Antonia (Cather)
The Great Gatsby (FItzgerald)
The Old Man and the Sea (Hemingway)
To Kill a Mockingbird (Lee)
Native Son (Wright)
The Grapes of Wrath (Steinbeck)
Mr. Sammler's Planet (Bellow)
Invisible Man (Ellison)
The Sound and the Fury (Faulkner)
Catcher in the Rye (Salinger)
Catch-22 (Heller)
Atlas Shrugged (Rand)
U.S.A trilogy [42nd Parallel/1919/Big Money] (Dos Passos)
White Noise (Delillo)
Beloved (Morrison)
Gravity's Rainbow (Pynchon)

Ah, it's fun to make lists. In any case, if you're interested in literature,
every single one of these is a must-read. A summer project, if you're bored,
perhaps!

Christi Rose.

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Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
In article <zebracorp-35272...@news.ym1.on.wave.home.com>,

"Zebra Corp." <zebr...@who.net> wrote:
> Exsqueeze me? You think it's an *ignorant* comment to dislike the
> United States and all it stands for? Ever listen to their national
> anthem?


Wow.

"...dislike the US and *all* it stands for"?

That's pretty strong and also ignorant and arrogant to blankly sweep an
entire nation under without fully understanding it's complexities. As
one from the first generation in my family to be born here, I say that
this country is pretty darn fascinating. I mean sure, the rampant
commercialism can jade anyone (has me, too, cynical), but the economic
opportunities and religious freedom have been blessings for my parents.

Also, I vividly recall a literature class, "American Dreamers and
Doubters." [1] I don't think anyone can say that they really understand
this country until they really look long and hard at "The American
Dream" and all the ideals and contradictions this dream embraces.

(BTW, while most people in the world don't understand this concept, I
find it even sadder that most Americans I talk with don't understand
this concept either.)

Anyways, back to the topic, ideals are ideals -- be free, make money,
be your own person, set your own goals, you can be successful, you can
come from nowhere to be a great somebody. And, so, these ideals start
contradicting each other taken to their extremes however noble they may
be. Just something for anyone to think about before waxing or waning on
this country and its strengths and weaknesses.

And lastly about that national anthem; I tend to approach it with my
tongue in my cheek. Check it out:

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/trm065.html
http://www.vsla.edu/mailarch/va_roots/1999/mar99/msg00700.html
http://www.bcpl.net/~etowner/anacreon.html
http://www.acronet.net/~robokopp/english/toanacre.html

http://ink.yahoo.com/bin/query?p=To+Anacreon+in+Heaven&z=1&hc=0&hs=0

Later,
Christi.

--
[1] Emerson, AmeriThoreau, Civil Disobedience; Hawthorne, Scarlett
Letter; Miller, Death of a Salesman; Fitzgerald, Great Gatsby; Poems by
Whitman, ee cummings, Emily Dickenson and others I can't remember. One
of my fave semesters of high school literature classes.

[2] As much as I hate Daly City, I really do admire the way this city
has become such an example of the American Dream.

--
"... There is only one of you in all time, this expression is unique,
and if you block it, it will never exist through any other medium; and
be lost."

Martha Graham

*** send replies to carose at metro dot net ***


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Christi Rose.

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Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
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Wow.

http://ink.yahoo.com/bin/query?p=To+Anacreon+in+Heaven&z=1&hc=0&hs=0

Later,
Christi.

--
[1] Emerson, American Scholar; Thoreau, Civil Disobedience; Hawthorne,

Ed Morrish

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Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
> ... this country until they really look long and hard at "The American

> Dream" and all the ideals and contradictions this dream embraces.

American dream? What are you trying to say? Can only Americans dream?
How arrogant! Every nation has dreams, American didn't invent them! Blah
blah blah...

;-)

Ed

M1ahearn

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Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
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>> > listening to "The Wake Up Bomb" last night, I remarked, why is it that
> th adage "The Great American Novel" exists? Who coined that? In what
way
> is "the novel" an American thing? Do Americans credit themselves with
> everything? Was Dostoevski an American?

hon, stop smoking crack before posting. In no way does the phrase the
great american novel imply that people from the US were the first to
write a novel. the phrase is about writing the best novel by a US
citizen. tough to figure out, i realize. <<

Actually, I thought - perhaps incorrectly - that the term referred to the
novel that most completely captured the American experience.
Incidentally, Philip Roth wrote a book called "The Great American Novel".
It's about baseball, except that it's not, really.

>> So while other countries just have novels, the United States Of America has

THE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL. It's just the type of nationalistic bullshit I'd
expect from the most self-absorbed, pretentious country in the world. <<

Wouldn't that be The Great French Novel?

>> guilty as charged. <<

Take off! You hoser!

MFA

the itchy glowbo blow

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Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
>
>That has got to be the coolest bloodline I've heard of since Joe McCarthy.
>Seriously though, I'd be bragging to everyone if I were related to Mark
>Twain.
>
>jeff

well, as i pointed out in a previous thread, i'm also related to the
barrymore's (y'know, drew, ethel,lionel, etc). and, i'm also directly related
(though many many MANY generations ago) to poland's king josef (i believe he
reigned in the 13th century)

Christi Rose.

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Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
Me:

> > ... this country until they really look long and hard at "The
> > American Dream" and all the ideals and contradictions this dream
> > embraces.


In article <3958ED11...@morris-SPAMBLOCK-h.org>,


Ed Morrish <e...@morris-SPAMBLOCK-h.org> wrote:
> American dream? What are you trying to say? Can only Americans dream?
> How arrogant! Every nation has dreams, American didn't invent them!
> Blah blah blah...
>
> ;-)


Well, I sleep but I don't dream. Maybe that's why I'm not considered
American?

8-)


Cheers,
Christi.

the itchy glowbo blow

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Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
>Also, I vividly recall a literature class, "American Dreamers and
>Doubters."

this sounds like an interesting class... i'll have to look into it, because
i,like you said later in your post, don't even really know what that term (the
american dream) means.

>And lastly about that national anthem; I tend to approach it with my
>tongue in my cheek. Check it out:

<snip>

i took a look at the lyrics for the canadian national anthem last night.. it's
really no different than the u.s. anthem..except that it's rather god-centric
and it's more like a prayer than anything else

Ron Henry

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Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
Christi Rose. <car...@my-deja.com> dreamed of being naked before an audience
and saying:

>In article <zebracorp-35272...@news.ym1.on.wave.home.com>,
> "Zebra Corp." <zebr...@who.net> wrote:
>> Exsqueeze me? You think it's an *ignorant* comment to dislike the
>> United States and all it stands for? Ever listen to their national
>> anthem?
>
>Wow.
>
>"...dislike the US and *all* it stands for"?

Well, the especially funny thing, Christi (to me, anyhow) is that it was a
Canadian posting these virulent comments, a country that really doesn't differ
all that significantly from the U.S., except that it's maybe even more
white-bread anglo than h, doesn't need much of an army because the U.S. has
such a big one, and that it looks down upon its French-speaking and Native
American minorities instead of its African-American and Native American
minorities. Oh, and it's got Tim Horton's Donuts instead of Dunkin' Donuts.
;-)

Now, if someone from a, for want of a better term, "third-world country", with
a struggling economy and lots of other problems tracable to bullshit economic
and political actions made by the U.S., had made those comments, I'd have a
bit more sympathy. But for crying out loud, this is bickering between
siblings.

"Mom! The Americans are looking at me! Tell them to stop looking at me! And
their hand is on my side of the car seat! Mommm! The Americans are crossing
their eyes! Mom!!!"

Seriously, I dunno. Of course, "...dislike the U.S. and all it stands for"
might also mean that he disapproves of things like foreign disaster relief
aid, the space program, opposition to the Axis powers in World War II, tons of
funding for the arts, freedom of speech, and voting rights for women. It's
difficult to say.

the itchy glowbo blow

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Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
>
>Well, I sleep but I don't dream. Maybe that's why I'm not considered
>American?

hm. well..technically you ARE american, regardless of if your parents were or
not..you were, after all, born here.

Christi Rose.

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Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
Me:

> >Also, I vividly recall a literature class, "American Dreamers and
> >Doubters."


In article <20000627145515...@ng-fs1.aol.com>,


pulps...@aol.computer (the itchy glowbo blow) wrote:
> this sounds like an interesting class... i'll have to look into it,
> because i,like you said later in your post, don't even really know
> what that term (the american dream) means.


Well, in that case, here's some other stuff I read in the class that I
didn't mention in my last post.

Bartleby the Scrivenor (Melville)
Grapes of Wrath (Steinbeck)

Optional:
Native Son (Wright)
My Antonia (Cather)
Fifth Chinese Daughter (Jade Snow Wong)

And I am sure that I'm forgetting a whole bunch of other poems and
short stories. Some stuff by Irving, too, but I forget which stories.
Some stuff by Ben Franklin, too -- diary excerpts or something similar,
I think.

Anyways, in that class, even before having us read anything, the
teacher made us write an essay defining "The American Dream" and what
it meant [1]. Then we started into the reading list -- in chronological
order -- looking at what the settlers expected of from and found at
this country, to what the first citizens expected this country to
become, to what this country had become.

Anyways, I found a lot of themes revolving around making something of
nothing and being self-sufficient and keeping an eye out on the future
-- themes I find especially relevant, maybe because I live so close to
Silicon Valley [2].


Cheers,
Christi.

--
[1] I basically wrote about coming from a third world country and
working hard to improve your life, or at least your childrens' lives --
basically, what my parents have always dreamed of doing -- from poverty
to the middle class suburbs, yeah!

[2] Also, my bf runs a start-up so I see a lot of the hard work and
sacrifice that goes into making something from nothing. All this has me
thinking about the contradictions in the American Dream all over again.

[3] Doesn't _Sister Carrie_ mention something about Chicago prospering
from or being built upon a dream? <snap> I'm thinking about Silicon
Valley too much.

Chris Piuma

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Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
In article <zebracorp-35272...@news.ym1.on.wave.home.com>,
"Zebra Corp." <zebr...@who.net> wrote:
> Exsqueeze me?

Even if I were your ex, I wouldn't be interested in squeezing you.

>You think it's an *ignorant* comment to dislike the United
> States and all it stands for? Ever listen to their national anthem?

Actually, yes I have. It's probably one of the most interesting anthems
out there. Unlike most anthems -- Canada's bland-if-catchy hymn, say --
which basically are all about "We're number one! Go us!", the US
anthem -- especially the first verse, which is all most Americans know
anyways -- is a bunch of questions during a fire. [1] Lots of doubt,
uncertainty, for most of the song. And then a remembrance of those who
died in the war, and then only in the last verse do you get the
usual "we're the best, we shall prevail" stuff.

The US also has the better b-side: Yankee Doodle Dandy, which is a
wonderfully surrealist little story. O Canada's b-side, "O Canada
(Remix Quebecoise)" is cheeky and cute, if derivative, but at least
it's sung by Robert Charlebois.

--
Chris Piuma, etc.
Secretly Canadian
http://www.mp3.com/ChrisPiuma

--
Chris Piuma, etc.
http://www.flim.com

[1] This is all mostly paraphrased by a Laurie Anderson routine,
admittedly.

Rebecca

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Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
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ronh...@clarityconnect.com (Ron Henry) scrawled across this across
the monitor in permanent marker:

>jrrei...@aol.com (jeff reichman) dreamed of being naked before an audience and saying:
>
>>Others disagree. The point is, the US is so incredibly complex that one story
>>from one point of view can't possibly embody all of the US.
>
>I completely agree, Jeff. Just for the record, over the years various
>people/professors have told me all of the following are (incarnations of) The
>Great American Novel:

I agree too, but it sure is fun to try to find it!

<snipping list>

>Ah, it's fun to make lists. In any case, if you're interested in literature,
>every single one of these is a must-read. A summer project, if you're bored,
>perhaps!

Oooh, good list. In the interest of yanking this thread even further
off-topic, here are a couple more picks:

"Sometimes a Great Notion" by Ken Kesey. This is a really good book,
and better, IMO, than the more famous "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's
Nest.

"Go Down, Moses" by William Faulkner. This one covers everything:
race relations, the Civil War, the displacement of the Indians, the
destruction of nature, and so on. And it's a masterpiece of a novel.

So, anyone else's picks?

Rebecca

kfj

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Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
to
<Rebecca> wrote in message news:395913ad...@news.mindspring.com...

> >Ah, it's fun to make lists. In any case, if you're interested in
literature,
> >every single one of these is a must-read. A summer project, if you're
bored,
> >perhaps!
>
> Oooh, good list. In the interest of yanking this thread even further
> off-topic, here are a couple more picks:
>
> "Sometimes a Great Notion" by Ken Kesey. This is a really good book,
> and better, IMO, than the more famous "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's
> Nest.
>
> "Go Down, Moses" by William Faulkner. This one covers everything:
> race relations, the Civil War, the displacement of the Indians, the
> destruction of nature, and so on. And it's a masterpiece of a novel.

oooh, can we replace Go Down, Moses with Absalom, Absalom? I love Faulkner,
and I love Absalom, Absalom the best. It's a winner of a novel.

Become the sky

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Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
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On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:12:00 GMT, ronh...@clarityconnect.com (Ron
Henry) wrote:


>Well, the especially funny thing, Christi (to me, anyhow) is that it was a
>Canadian posting these virulent comments, a country that really doesn't differ
>all that significantly from the U.S., except that it's maybe even more
>white-bread anglo than h, doesn't need much of an army because the U.S. has
>such a big one, and that it looks down upon its French-speaking and Native
>American minorities instead of its African-American and Native American
>minorities.

You really don't know very much about Canada, do you?

the itchy glowbo blow

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Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00
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as much as mr strung (aka: zebra corp.) knows about america.

Become the sky

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Jun 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM6/27/00