Song of the Week - Carnival of Sorts (Box Cars)
kfj
biography to date and we do k's 2nd least favorite r.e.m. song.
First - with the exception of Paul who was there, most of us, I suspect, view
R.E.M. the band thru the lens of their present day accomplishments and
personalities. As someone said, a man who dies at 35 will appear to remembrance
at every stage of his life as a man who died at 35. But imagine yourself in a
wayback machine [1] to Athens, GA circa 1980-1982. A college town known for a
fanatical love of their football team, a college that might have appeared
over-run with fraternities and sororities and people looking to follow thru on
Peter's assessment of UGA: a place to go and drink and fuck yr way thru school.
Sure, the B-52s came from Athens, and there were some other local bands (none as
good as The Side Effects were going to be, right, Paul? :)) but they were all,
like, arty. Weird people went to see them and they played unrecognizable songs
and couldn't even tune their instruments and they probably thought the Sex
Pistols were, like, good. The future of music was clearly going to be something
like Rush or maybe Bruce Springsteen and play in big arenas and snort cocaine
and nothing big like that would ever come from Athens. Heck, even the B-52s
moved to NY. And all the cool arty bands followed them and played up there, even
if they hadn't moved yet. You'd have to be smoking some serious weed to think
four scruffians who hung with the weirdos would ever amount to anything. :)
So - a brief view of our scruffians in 1982: Peter Buck, at 25 getting kind of
long in the tooth to still be nothing more than a record store clerk college
dropout. Moody, cynical (too much so for his own good, according to scruffian
Bill), known for carrying a knife and once boasted that he had slept with ten
times as many women as another Athenian - and so the scared other Athenian
bought a knife to match Peter's and slept with it by his bed since he was
afraid. :) Mike Mills, 23, once a star student with stellar SATs, who waited two
years to go to college after graduating and spent that time working at Sears and
waiting to really bust loose, and had been drinking and partying his way thru
school to date. Bill Berry, also 23, the scruffian who'd been a ruffian in high
school, worked two years as a gofer for the label home of southern rock and big
belt buckles and now had been asked to leave matriculating at UGA. We look back
at Bill and see him resigning, but back then Bill had been the driving force -
employed in a shitty polyester wearing getting up early job, he took the band
seriously and had every intention of making what money he could at it. Jefferson
came on board because Bill was tired of getting the money and dealing with all
the crap. Oh, and our final scruffian, a dyed in wool arty weirdo, Michael
Stipe, 21. :) They were, of all things, signed to IRS (for a paltry advance -
Mike and Peter went to a pizza parlor to celebrate since Pete's gf worked there
and would give them free food and beer. At the signing, the president of IRS
walked right by them since the Lords of the New Church walked in the door) and
about to release an EP after all the hype of their debut single.
The basics: the initial recordings for CTown were financed by David Healey, a
friend of Jefferson's, (k's anonymous super secret source describes Healey in
college as someone who always had the best drugs) who proved markedly unreliable
and was soon dropped by the band. Their second time with Mitch Easter after
recording the single, the band felt free and easy and willing to experiment. Box
Cars was always the last encore song and a favorite of the fans live in that
heady day. Bill hated it initially, and refused to play it, but was eventually
won over.
What do you think? Platt thinks its about carnival strip shows coming to town,
Gray didn't write anything I remember about its meaning. Do you like it?
-k
There's a secret stigma, reaping wheel.
Diminish, a carnival of sorts.
Chronic town, poster torn, reaping wheel.
Stranger, stranger to these parts.
Gentlemen don't get caught, cages under cage. Gentlemen don't get caught,
Boxcars (are pulling) out of town. Boxcars (are pulling) out of town.
Boxcars (are pulling) out of town.
(repeat 1st verse and chorus)
Cages under, cages under, cages under cage.
Cages under, cages under, cages under cage.
(repeat chorus)
There's a secret stigma, reaping wheel.
Stranger, stranger to these parts.
Chronic town, poster torn, reaping wheel.
Diminish, stranger.
(repeat chorus)
[1] I really liked Rocky and Bullwinkle as a kid. This is not a continuing plug
I'm using to hype the upcoming film, Sherman and the Professor. ;)
--
All my early sexual experiences occurred to ZZ Top songs playing in the
background. - Peter Buck, R.E.M.
karenfj at hotmail dot com is the correct address.
Chris Piuma
"kfj" <kar...@dontlikebelong.comma> wrote:
> What do you think? Platt thinks its about carnival strip shows coming
to town,
> Gray didn't write anything I remember about its meaning.
Henry has written a few thoughts on it, though. But I guess he can
repeat them.
> Do you like it?
Yup. It's, like, a really great song. Probably my favorite on CT,
although gee whiz it's hard to pick a favorite.
> There's a secret stigma, reaping wheel.
Boy, this, the posse in the graveyard, the scratched-at scandals, and
many others -- Stipe sure wrote 'em dark in those days. Secret stigmas,
indeed! Angsty angsty boy.
> Stranger, stranger to these parts.
Like the start of many a western. Nekkid came the stranger. Bang! Bang!
> Boxcars (are pulling) out of town.
A long time ago, Kipp had this as "are turning". I like to sing "are
totally", as if Mike & Bill were two valley girls. Boxcars are, like,
so totally out-of-town! Oh mah gawd!
> Cages under, cages under, cages under cage.
> Cages under, cages under, cages under cage.
Not much you can say about these lines that haven't been said before.
> poster torn
Consider how "poster torn" has the same rhythmic patter as "DLO", the
album which "Chronic town" would eventually be paired with. "Chronic
Town, DLO, reaping wheel."
> (repeat chorus)
A very typical R.E.M. move.
Further details at the all new true blue whoo-hoo-hoo R.E.M. Lyric
Annotations FAQ,
http://www.flim.com/remlafaq/chronic_town/carnival_of_sorts.html
--
Chris Piuma, etc.
http://www.flim.com/remlafaq.html
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Michelle Martin
<kar...@dontlikebelong.comma> wrote:
(Snippedy-doo-dah, snippedy-ay)
> What do you think? Platt thinks its about carnival strip shows coming to town,
> Gray didn't write anything I remember about its meaning. Do you like it?
> -k
I love it; it's one of my favorites of their earliest work.
As to meaning, the first time I heard it I thought of Ray Bradbury's
"Something Wicked This Way Comes." The "secret stigma" phrase and the
"gentlemen don't get caught, cages under cage" line especially evoke the
images of the "bad carnival" from SWTWC for me.
But, that's just me ;)
Michelle
--
A man who is always ready to believe what is told him will
never do well. -- Petronius
»Q«
"Chris Piuma" <pi...@flim.com> wrote in message news:8imbu6$997$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Further details at the all new true blue whoo-hoo-hoo R.E.M. Lyric
> Annotations FAQ,
> http://www.flim.com/remlafaq/chronic_town/carnival_of_sorts.html
>
That's a beauty of a new layout, man! Check it out, gang.
»Q«
--
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
helen looker
Michelle Martin <mik...@newsguy.com>
> As to meaning, the first time I heard it I thought of Ray Bradbury's
> "Something Wicked This Way Comes." The "secret stigma" phrase and the
> "gentlemen don't get caught, cages under cage" line especially evoke the
> images of the "bad carnival" from SWTWC for me.
>
> But, that's just me ;)
Actually I always related it to a stage version of that book so you are not
alone. I think it is the sinister nature of the song and of the carnival in
that story. As with all the early songs I have never tried to make linear
sense of the lyrics and even seeing these ones written down doesn't help me
much but it is still a great song.
--
Helen
'I've had sex, and lots of it, and enjoyed every minute of it, too." Mike
Mills 1996
Andrew
"Boxcars (are surely) out of town." I'm sure that k more
than likely has done tons more research than I have, so i'll
believe her. Well, I guess that's mumbles at his best.
Chris Piuma wrote:
> > Boxcars (are pulling) out of town.
>
> A long time ago, Kipp had this as "are turning". I like to sing "are
> totally", as if Mike & Bill were two valley girls. Boxcars are, like,
> so totally out-of-town! Oh mah gawd!
--
**~Andrew~**
Andrew
> What do you think? Platt thinks its about carnival strip shows coming to town,
> Gray didn't write anything I remember about its meaning. Do you like it?
> -k
Craig Rosen doesn't write anything more than what's already
been mentioned here either. Well, with the exception of the
intro being played with a $30 Casio keyboard from a
department store. That keyboard track was recorded with a
$5 bad "old tape recorder microphone." Did somebody say
Radio Shack? heh heh As for the meaning for the lyrics of
the song, this one's an enigma, but it always does something
strange to my brain when I hear it--not entirely dissimilar
to hearing the bridge(?) of "West of the Fields." In any
case, this song has always held a eerie feeling for me that
reminds me of watching horror movies with my dad as a kid
(yes, there are firm established reasons for my mind being
warped, I know).
Well, because the phrase "Chronic Town" appears here. Mr.
Bill Berry describes a "'Chronic Town' is a city in a state
of mind." Perhaps, this song is some sort of warning to
Athens outsiders to not come here for fear of bumping into a
Carnival of "arty" freaks like Fred Schneider (no harm
intended, Fred) or rabid football enthusiasts at UGA. In
other words, a paraphrase would be "don't miss the next
ticket out of this carnival if you don't want to become
"caged" in it[...]train's leavin'!" I know this is a
**long** shot.
--
**~Andrew~**
Tad Schirz
elements of the band's developing 'optical' style, imo, are evident.
And (going out on a limb), I believe there is a visual pun based on a
double-meaning. Gulp, here I go.
'Carnival of Sorts (Box Cars)'
'Carinval of Sorts' implies a double meaning to carnival and '(Box
Cars)' implies the image of the box cars is equated with at least one
of the meanings of carnival.
The first meaning of carnival (imo) is probably the popular 'county
fair' or 'circus' image -- with box cars a loosely associated image.
But the second more arcane meaning of carnival refers to the
religious/cultural event of 'Carnival' directly preceding 'Lent'.
(There is a third possible way to read it: 'carnival of sorts' as
in 'carnival of all sorts of strange people etc', but I don't believe
it is restrictive to my viewpoint, in any case.
Carnival in the social context is a period of excessive eating,
drinking and foolery in which fun is poked at government and church; it
was a safety valve for grievance in medieval times. Lent is a period
when eating meat is forbidden. *Historically, the church contrived
Lent after, and to control, Carnival. One is comedy, the other pain.
Both continue today (*see the book 'Sudden Glory', a history of
laughter, by Barry Sanders).
> There's a secret stigma, reaping wheel.
As previous discussions have pointed out, 'stigma' is similar to the
Christian myth of the 'stigmata' (wounds of Christ). This would allude
to the second meaning of 'carnival', as individuals mimic the suffering
of Christ.
> Gentlemen don't get caught, cages under cage ...
Refers to the cages on the circus train; would presumably hold the
animals.
> Boxcars (are pulling) out of town. Boxcars (are pulling) out of town.
> Boxcars (are pulling) out of town.
Here's the visual pun.
The train image, boxcars full of animal cages leaving town, also
suggests 'taking the meat away' for Lent.
Thus, the title reflects the linear one-two punch of the pun.
Carnival of Sorts (Box Cars) = Carnival (Lent).
--Tad (who always eats prime rib 'on the bone')
Robin Petty
> this song has always held a eerie feeling for me that
> reminds me of watching horror movies with my dad as a kid
> (yes, there are firm established reasons for my mind being
> warped, I know).
Is there any chance the song title is a corruption or reference to the 1962
b&w horror classic 'Carnival of Souls' (dir. Herk Harvey)? I don't think
Buck, Berry or Mills were great movie go-ers but I suppose Michael could
have seen it, given his arty inclinations?
--
Robin
'Someone call a somnambulence'
the flowers cover everything
>b&w horror classic 'Carnival of Souls' (dir. Herk Harvey)? I don't think
>Buck, Berry or Mills were great movie go-ers but I suppose Michael could
>have seen it, given his arty inclinations?
>
wasn't that movie referenced in it crawled from the south (both versions)?
*~*~
http://www.angelfire.com/md/RoadSafety
---
"go build yourself another dream, this choice isn't mine"
{r.e.m.-- "so.central rain"}
»Q«
"Tad Schirz" <just...@execpc.com> wrote in message news:8ip97e$9ke$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Apologizing in advance if I'm repeating previous discussions. Early
> elements of the band's developing 'optical' style, imo, are evident.
> And (going out on a limb), I believe there is a visual pun based on a
> double-meaning. Gulp, here I go.
> suggests 'taking the meat away' for Lent.
>
> Thus, the title reflects the linear one-two punch of the pun.
>
> Carnival of Sorts (Box Cars) = Carnival (Lent).
Thanks for going out on a limb. This is very interesting. I live in New Orleans, quite a Carnival city, and had never considered any of this. 'Carnival' is built from Latin roots literally meaning 'to remove the meat' or 'to remove the flesh.' The spring feasting certainly preceded Lent, but the word 'Carnival' only applies once we know that the Church is going to take away the meat.
I now wonder whether the warnings 'suspicion yourself' and 'don't get caught' are tied to the Church's co-opting of 'heathen' ritual. Don't let them take your identity - after all, they are removing flesh and gentlemen are made of flesh as well. The proximity of 'gentlemen, don't get caught' and 'cages under cage' more than suggests the danger of being caught and caged. But it would not be the physical cages (which hold the animals). The cages we must be wary of are hidden behind (under) the overt removal of our meat (and our fun.) Someone is trying to cage our spirits.
»Q«
--
When a subject becomes totally obsolete we make it a required course.
- P. Drucker
kfj
> "kfj" <kar...@dontlikebelong.comma> wrote:
> > What do you think? Platt thinks its about carnival strip shows coming
> to town,
> > Gray didn't write anything I remember about its meaning.
>
> repeat them.
and hasn't done so yet, damnit!!
> > There's a secret stigma, reaping wheel.
>
> Boy, this, the posse in the graveyard, the scratched-at scandals, and
> many others -- Stipe sure wrote 'em dark in those days. Secret stigmas,
> indeed! Angsty angsty boy.
you know, youth. i think his later songs are more hopeful as he grew older.
> > Boxcars (are pulling) out of town.
>
> A long time ago, Kipp had this as "are turning". I like to sing "are
> totally", as if Mike & Bill were two valley girls. Boxcars are, like,
> so totally out-of-town! Oh mah gawd!
LOL!
> > (repeat chorus)
>
> A very typical R.E.M. move.
a peter buck special. he traces it all back to the Stand By Your Man Rule -
peter insists that song has the longest second verse ever, and then it's all
jsut choruses. He says you can do anything you want in a song if the chorus
works, too. :)
-k
»Q«
"»Q«" <Dodgeball...@usa.net> wrote in message news:8ir07s$b56$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
Well, I got carried away a bit!. Wolves and Box Cars always seem like a sinister matched pair to me somehow. The subject-verb disagreement and the ending preposition I let stand, but I guess I should take back the stuff about 'suspicion yourself.'
»Q«
--
Philosophy is useless;
Theology is worse.
- M. Knopfler, 'Industrial Disease'
Andrew Palka
>Do you like it?
Very much so!...My favorite track off Chronic town and my favorite track to
play on the air back in my college radio days. (For more info on that please
see my superfan profile at Parakeets & Sidewinders........Hi Rob...)
Another masterful chord progression,... Bm A D G A Asus2. All fairly easy to
play and common chords within the rock and roll vernacular, but the rhythm
pattern is deceptively tricky to play just right. One of my happiest days as
a fledgling guitar player was when I managed to play this song at least
approximately correct. (Still can't sing it worth a damn).....Another
testament to Peter's natural ability as a guitar player and proof that if
you have talent, lack of technical ability is not necessarily a hindrance.
I also love the dynamics of the intro. The muted Casio keyboard intro, then
the same volume instrumental build-up, then the full volume, full bore
forward propulsion of guitar bass and drum in unison. As I
said....Masterful...............
What a song....What a band....
>1] I really liked Rocky and Bullwinkle as a kid
Hokey smokes!.....Me too...............:-)
Andrew
***********************************************************
"Hey Rocky..........Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat........
kfj <kar...@dontlikebelong.comma> wrote in message
news:#pPXzPg2$GA.349@cpmsnbbsa08...
> What do you think? Platt thinks its about carnival strip shows coming to
town,
> Gray didn't write anything I remember about its meaning. Do you like it?
> -k
>
>
> There's a secret stigma, reaping wheel.
> Diminish, a carnival of sorts.
> Chronic town, poster torn, reaping wheel.
> Stranger, stranger to these parts.
>
> Gentlemen don't get caught, cages under cage. Gentlemen don't get caught,
> Boxcars (are pulling) out of town. Boxcars (are pulling) out of town.
> Boxcars (are pulling) out of town.
>
> (repeat 1st verse and chorus)
>
> Cages under, cages under, cages under cage.
> Cages under, cages under, cages under cage.
>
> (repeat chorus)
>
> There's a secret stigma, reaping wheel.
> Stranger, stranger to these parts.
> Chronic town, poster torn, reaping wheel.
> Diminish, stranger.
>
> (repeat chorus)
>
>
>
>
> [1] I really liked Rocky and Bullwinkle as a kid. This is not a continuing
plug
> I'm using to hype the upcoming film, Sherman and the Professor. ;)
>
Chris Piuma
"kfj" <kar...@dontlikebelong.comma> wrote:
> [Chris Piuma said:]
> > Boy, this, the posse in the graveyard, the scratched-at scandals,
and
> > many others -- Stipe sure wrote 'em dark in those days. Secret
stigmas,
> > indeed! Angsty angsty boy.
> you know, youth. i think his later songs are more hopeful as he grew
older.
Ahem. Is that a clue?
> > > (repeat chorus)
> > A very typical R.E.M. move.
> a peter buck special. he traces it all back to the Stand By Your Man
Rule -
> peter insists that song has the longest second verse ever, and then
it's all
> jsut choruses. He says you can do anything you want in a song if the
chorus
> works, too. :)
I'm trying to remember that song's structure -- I haven't heard it in a
long time. But you know, in, say, musical theater songs -- Cole Porter
tunes, say -- you have the verse, first ("I'm so in love, and though it
gives me joy intense, I can't decipher if I'm a lifer or if it's just a
first offense; I'm so in love, I've got no values left at all -- is
this a playtime affair of May-time or is it a windfall?") and then
that's over with, never to be seen again, and so you sing the chorus
("Is it an earthquake? or simply a shock? Is it the good turtle soup?
Or merely the mock? Is it Grenada I see, or only Asbury Park? Is it a
fancy not worth thinking of, or is it at long last love?"). And sing it
again and again, and everyone remembers the chorus, and so people
rarely sing the verse. (In this case, since it's a clever Cole Porter
song, the words change in the chorus, and so it acts like a verse --
but this isn't true of many famous showtuney type songs, many of which
have surprising verses that you've never heard.)
You can do pretty much anything in a song, if at least some part of it
works, though. You can even not have a chorus, if you're, like, Leonard
Cohen, or someone appopriating him.
--
Chris Piuma, etc.
http://www.mp3.com/ChrisPiuma
Tad Schirz
>Thanks for going out on a limb. This is very interesting. I live in
> New Orleans, quite a Carnival city, and had never considered any of =
> this. 'Carnival' is built from Latin roots literally meaning 'to
> remove the meat' or 'to remove the flesh.' The spring feasting
> certainly preceded Lent, but the word 'Carnival' only applies once we
> know that the Church is going to take away the meat.
Right, you have to dig a little. The early lyrics tend to seep out
more than splash on you. The religion reference seems viable; whenever
I pick up the album, there's the Notre Dame gargoyle staring me down.
> I now wonder whether the warnings 'suspicion yourself' and 'don't get
> caught' are tied to the Church's co-opting of 'heathen' ritual.
> Don't let them take your identity -
>after all, they are removing flesh and gentlemen are made of flesh
> as well. The proximity of 'gentlemen, don't get caught' and
> 'cages under cage' more than suggests the danger of being caught
> and caged.
I wonder most of this also. Is he suggesting the fear you experience
when breaking the rules of Lent and sneaking a hot dog (like at a
county fair)? Or, as you say, is it more metaphorical on the theme of
confinement.
> Well, I got carried away a bit! (snip) I guess I should take back the
> stuff about 'suspicion yourself.'
Not at all. I think it is a valid idea. By the way, did you know
Dylan's 'Mr. Tambourine Man' is a song set in the wee hours after a big
festival in New Orleans?
--Tad.
»Q«
"Tad Schirz" <just...@execpc.com> wrote in message news:8is6lg$ck7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> Right, you have to dig a little. The early lyrics tend to seep out
> more than splash on you. The religion reference seems viable; whenever
> I pick up the album, there's the Notre Dame gargoyle staring me down.
For many years I resisted analyzing r.e.m. lyrics at all. One of the things that hooked me way back when was the notion that Mr. Stipe was using his voice purely as a musical instrument. Back then, I don't think I could have quoted any of the lyrics, even the most intelligible ones. (Ok, I think I knew that there was a 'conversation fear' somewhere.) One of my first great revelations about the internet came with my discovery of Kipp's site, with the consensus lyrics. How else could such a thing have been formed? I love these SotW threads, and find that lyric analysis only adds to my appreciation and emotional connection to the early works. (Losing some of that emotional connection is what I was afraid of, I guess.)
> > I now wonder whether the warnings 'suspicion yourself' and 'don't get
> > caught' are tied to the Church's co-opting of 'heathen' ritual.
> > Don't let them take your identity -
> >after all, they are removing flesh and gentlemen are made of flesh
> > as well. The proximity of 'gentlemen, don't get caught' and
> > 'cages under cage' more than suggests the danger of being caught
> > and caged.
>
> I wonder most of this also. Is he suggesting the fear you experience
> when breaking the rules of Lent and sneaking a hot dog (like at a
> county fair)? Or, as you say, is it more metaphorical on the theme of
> confinement.
My one Carnival/Lent ritual is to eat a Lucky Dog on the corner of Bourbon and Toulouse at midnight on Tuesday. A phalanx of mounted police moves slowly down Bourbon, driving the throngs off to the side streets, marking the end of carnival and the beginning of lent. It is the only hot dog I eat all year. It's difficult to eat because of the mass of people in motion; I have to be in perfect position behind the Lucky Dog cart.
> > Well, I got carried away a bit! (snip) I guess I should take back the
> > stuff about 'suspicion yourself.'
>
> Not at all. I think it is a valid idea. By the way, did you know
> Dylan's 'Mr. Tambourine Man' is a song set in the wee hours after a big
> festival in New Orleans?
I did not know that, but I do associate most of the images in that song with a particular Mardi Gras experience. It was a jingle-jangle afternoon, and a plastic kazoo instead of a tambourine.
A little while ago I was blasting Box Cars from the speakers, deep in thought about secret stigmata, reaping wheels, confinement, guilt, &c., when my partner came smiling/skipping/dancing through the room. I continue to be thankful that I'm in love with a band that can be appreciated on so many levels.
»Q«
--
If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the precipitate.
- S. Wright