Jig is Ragtime origin?
HAMADA
I'm confused for hearing people say,
"Origin of the ragtime music was Jig (or Irish music)"!
I think there are many different things between these music, and I
think Romantic music like Chopin and the march like Sousa are the one
of the origin of ragtime, but I'm not sure about it.
Do they misunderstand the ragtime as string band music like
bluegrass?
And, why all origins of the world's syncopated music must be Irish?
What do you think about it?
HAMADA, Takasi
Japan
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Hal Vickery
<hamadaN...@mb.infosnow.ne.jp.invalid> wrote:
> Hello, I'm Japanese ragtime guitarist HAMADA, Takasi.
> I'm confused for hearing people say,
> "Origin of the ragtime music was Jig (or Irish music)"!
> I think there are many different things between these music, and I
> think Romantic music like Chopin and the march like Sousa are the one
> of the origin of ragtime, but I'm not sure about it.
> Do they misunderstand the ragtime as string band music like
> bluegrass?
> And, why all origins of the world's syncopated music must be Irish?
> What do you think about it?
Don't believe everything you hear people say. There is no single origin to
ragtime music, just as there is no single origin to jazz. Ragtime is a
blending of several musical forms. One of the most obvious is that the
form for classic ragtime often follows that of marches.
I seem to remember reading in my distant past that "jig time" was often
used to describe the tempo of ragtime music, and that would seem to make
sense. There is no doubt that the melodic nature of the best ragtime owes
a lot to romantic music.
As far as the attribution of the origin of the syncopation found in music
such as ragtime and jazz, I'd guess that most people would look to Africa
rather than Ireland since both forms incorporate polyrhythms that
originated in Africa. Since ragtime and jazz both arose out of the
African-American community, this seems a lot more logical that Ireland, and
in fact I've never seen the origin of the syncopation in either form of
music attributed to the Irish, most especially not in this newsgroup.
nsmf
Tracy Doyle
HAMADA, Takasi wrote:
>
> Hello, I'm Japanese ragtime guitarist HAMADA, Takasi.
> I'm confused for hearing people say,
> "Origin of the ragtime music was Jig (or Irish music)"!
> I think there are many different things between these music, and I
> think Romantic music like Chopin and the march like Sousa are the one
> of the origin of ragtime, but I'm not sure about it.
> Do they misunderstand the ragtime as string band music like
> bluegrass?
> And, why all origins of the world's syncopated music must be Irish?
> What do you think about it?
>
> HAMADA, Takasi
> Japan
Hello, Hamada!
We have not heard of the Irish Jig being considered a source for
ragtime. Neither would romantic music have been a source. Ragtime music
was rough and bawdy, not sweet and sentimental as many players choose to
interpret it today. It was more a combination of march music, as you
indicated, and rhythms which have been attributed to African-Americans.
Frankly, I see a much stronger rhythmic connection with Latin American
(specifically, Cuban), Magyar (Hungarian), and Hebrew music than to
African. Many people claim that ragtime syncopation came from these
African origins, but I have yet to hear any traditional African music
which has ragtime-like syncopation. (Please - if anyone knows of any
African tribal music which will prove me wrong, please send it along!)
However, it is generally accepted that, whatever the cultural origins of
ragtime syncopation, it seems to have found its earliest use in the
African-American community. I would, however, exclude the Irish Jig as
being a strong contributor in the development of the music.
There is a rhythmic device found in Scottish music called the "Scotch
snap" which is found in ragtime, but it is a single rhythmic pattern
among many.
BTW, we have received your new CD, and it is absolutely incredible! You
are one of the finest ragtime guitarists we have had the pleasure to
hear. Thank you for asking your production company to send it.
RAGards,
Tracy
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HAMADA
I feel encouraged to see your truely right suggestions.
I think especially we Japanese guitar fans tend to think ragtime
within "string band music" (like Doc Watson) or "ragtime blues" (like
Stefan Grossman) traditions, and have less knowledge about ragtime
itself.
And music is music, ragtime is ragtime, I think.
Mr. Ed's descriptive suggestion is always very useful.
And thank you all!
eabe...@fnol.net
HAMADA, Takasi <hamadaN...@mb.infosnow.ne.jp.invalid> wrote:
> Hello, I'm Japanese ragtime guitarist HAMADA, Takasi.
> I'm confused for hearing people say,
> "Origin of the ragtime music was Jig (or Irish music)"!
> I think there are many different things between these music, and I
> think Romantic music like Chopin and the march like Sousa are the one
> of the origin of ragtime, but I'm not sure about it.
> Do they misunderstand the ragtime as string band music like
> bluegrass?
> And, why all origins of the world's syncopated music must be
Irish?
> What do you think about it?
>
> HAMADA, Takasi
Without disagreeing with either of the two previous respondents, I
should like to point out that in American slang of a certain period, the
term "jig" was used to apply to African Americans. (I recall
that from my childhood, some 50+ years ago.) Therefore, "jig music" was
applied to any music of African American origin.
I believe Blesh and Janis use the term "jig piano" in _They All Played
Ragtime_, but in my readings of newspapers and magazines from the
ragtime period, I have never come across the term "jig" in this context.
That does not mean that the term was not used, but since it did not
appear in publications of the time, we cannot be absolutely certain that
it was used at all.
Ed Berlin
> Japan
>
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Before you buy.
Tracy Doyle
Hi, Ed...
To expand upon that idea, Marshall & Jean Stearns gives us some
background and some real documentation in their book, "Jazz Dance,"
originally published by McMillan in 1968 and reprinted by DaCapo Press
in 1994. It's an incredible resource for any ragtime researcher. In
Chapter five, he describes in great detail a dance he witnessed in a
small town in the area of South Carolina where "Gullah" or "Geechee" is
spoken. The town's name is - rather surprsingly to Jelly Roll fans -
"Frogmore." The Stearns were seeking a guitarist, Sam Jenkins (born in
1897), whom they learned had moved to New York. But... they did find him
and apparently brought him back for a recording session. They set up
shop in a small store called the "Chicken Shack" on a dirt road. People
were coming and going, and everyone wanted to get in on the act.
Well, they stepped outside, and then they heard the sound of African drums...
"(We had studied African drumming with Asadata Dafora, and this sounded
like the real thing.) We rushed in there, and in the middle of the
creaky wooden floor were two young men dancing."
They describe in detail the scene... the men wore hobnail boots, and
splinters were flying with each step. As the crowd began to gather
around them, Jenkins accompanied on the washboard while another fellow
tapped out a counter rhythm on a gin bottle with a knife.
"The rhythm was more or less duple, that is, you could march to it--if
you concentrated--but it was also complicated, plyrhythmic, with offgeat
accents and bursts of staccato sound which gave it tremendous swing. The
dancers were humminjg snatches of melody as they danced. Their bodies
were bent at the waist, knees flexed, and arms out at the sides. The
empahsis was on the rhythmic thunder they were creating with their feet.
"Later we learned that the two dancers were Frank Chaplin and Evans
Capers, that the name of the song they were humming was "Blow Gabriel,
Hallelu," and that they were local men who had never even visited nearby
Savannah, the goal of most citizens of the neighborhood. They had no
idea where the dance came from -- "I seen my daddy do it," said
Chaplin--and they clearly improvised part of it. The rest of the crowd
took it for granted.
"Was any part of that stomp African? It was certainly no shuffle, and
although stomping dances such as the Mahi of Haiti can be traced back to
the Dahomeans of West Africa, the emphasis is not upon the sounds
produced by the feet, and the dancers do not stand in one spot, but move
around in t acircle. Perhaps this dance at Frogmore was already blended
with British folk dances such as the Jig and Clog--at least to the
extent of standing in one place and concentrating on the sounds produced
by shoes on the floor. Non-European body movement and rhythms had
certainly been added. "Some old-timers recollect a similar dance called
teh Mobile Buck--"That dance came along before tap," says Leigh Whipper.
"All they did was stomp.")
====>>>> "Jigging was the general term for this kind of dancing. The
word jig was originally used to describe an Irish folk dance, of course,
but it soon became associated in the United States with the Negro style
of dancing (and even as an epithet for Negro), perhaps because whites
confused any kind of Negro dancing with the lowly Irish Jig. 'Jig
dancing,' according to a statement attibuted to the famous minstrel-man
Charles White, 'had its origin among slaves of the southern plantations
... it ws original with them and has been copied ... '
Describing 'jigging contest' on an old plantation, B. A. Botkin quotes
an ex-slave James W. Smith, who was born in 'Texas around 1850: 'Master
... had a little platform built for th ejigging contests. Colored folks
comes from all around, to see who could jig the best ... on our place
was the jigginest fellow ever ws. Everyone round tried to git somebody
to best him..' The dance is strikingly similar to the dance we witnessed
at Frogmore: 'He could ... make his feet go like triphammers and sound
like the snaredrum. He could whirl round and such, all the movement from
his hips down...'"
Ed, if you have not read this book, you are in for quite a surprise.
When I read it, before I was really "hotwired" to the ragtime community,
I realized how inextricably intertwined ragtime was with dancing. To
consider how ragtime developed throughout its infancy without
understanding what was developing in dance is perhaps to fatally flaw
our research.
I can't say enough good things about this book. Certainly, Marshall
Stearns had a bias, and he has publicly admitted to "bending the truth"
in order to promote his political views in his books. That is a matter
of record. However, I also feel that this particular book is
*relatively* free of opinions and is more concentrated on eyewitness
accounts, historical research (footnoted!) and interviews. It is a MUST,
and it is also highly readable and even entertaining!
You should also know that there are a number of other references to the
term "jig" as it was associated with African-American dance, performance
and culture. I've only given you a tidbit, and I'm sure I'm in trouble
with Da Capo for taking more liberties in publishing their property than
"fair use" would allow. Oh, well, I'll take my chances...
RAGards,
Tracy
http://www.mp3.com/RealRagtime
Bill Edwards
eabe...@fnol.net wrote:
>
>
> Without disagreeing with either of the two previous respondents, I
> should like to point out that in American slang of a certain period, the
> term "jig" was used to apply to African Americans. (I recall
> that from my childhood, some 50+ years ago.) Therefore, "jig music" was
> applied to any music of African American origin.
> I believe Blesh and Janis use the term "jig piano" in _They All Played
> Ragtime_, but in my readings of newspapers and magazines from the
> ragtime period, I have never come across the term "jig" in this context.
> That does not mean that the term was not used, but since it did not
> appear in publications of the time, we cannot be absolutely certain that
> it was used at all.
>
> Ed Berlin
>
We may also note that it hasn't gone away, and that even today's rap
stars are guilty of "getting jiggy" on occasion.
Smiles, Bill E.
Mark Lutton
George Byrd wrote:
> If I may contribute a minor nit: The "Scotch snap"[1] was found at
> least in whites' impressions of blacks' music, "Ethiopian" minstrel
> show songs, as early as the 1840s. Stephen Foster used the snap in
> "Nelly Was a Lady"[2] and other songs. I have also found it
> occasionally in much more "classical" American music from the earlier
> 1800s.[3]
>
> Best,
> GCB
>
> [1] typically a sixteenth - dotted eighth rythmic sequence, reversing
> the more common dotted-eight - sixteenth.
>
> [2] a song which marks Foster's early attempts to reform minstrel
> music from its racial caricatures.
>
> [3] Benjamin Carr's (1768-1831) song "Poor Mary" has an instance of
> the snap, for example.
>
> --
I don't think you'll find much use of the sixteenth - dotted eighth rhythm in
ragtime. Conversely, I don't think you'll find much use of the sixteenth -
eighth - sixteenth cakewalk rhythm in Scots music. (Spirituals like "Nobody
Knows The Trouble I've Seen" can have them both.)
Sometimes, as in "A Breeze From Alabama," you'll find a slowed-down eighth -
dotted quarter. But the "Scotch snap" just feels totally different from the
cakewalk rhythm -- as different as a Sarabande from a Charleston.
Mark Lutton
George Byrd
on "Re: Jig is Ragtime origin?"
Tracy Doyle <tr...@NospaM.rag-time.com> wrote:
>However, it is generally accepted that, whatever the cultural origins of
>ragtime syncopation, it seems to have found its earliest use in the
>African-American community. I would, however, exclude the Irish Jig as
>being a strong contributor in the development of the music.
>There is a rhythmic device found in Scottish music called the "Scotch
>snap" which is found in ragtime, but it is a single rhythmic pattern
>among many.
If I may contribute a minor nit: The "Scotch snap"[1] was found at
least in whites' impressions of blacks' music, "Ethiopian" minstrel
show songs, as early as the 1840s. Stephen Foster used the snap in
"Nelly Was a Lady"[2] and other songs. I have also found it
occasionally in much more "classical" American music from the earlier
1800s.[3]
Best,
GCB
[1] typically a sixteenth - dotted eighth rythmic sequence, reversing
the more common dotted-eight - sixteenth.
[2] a song which marks Foster's early attempts to reform minstrel
music from its racial caricatures.
[3] Benjamin Carr's (1768-1831) song "Poor Mary" has an instance of
the snap, for example.
--
Opinions above are NOT those of APAN, Inc.and are NOT legal advice.
"Thoreau was a great musician, not because he played the flute
but because he did not have to go to Boston to hear 'the Symphony'."
<< Charles Ives, _Essays_Before_a_Sonata_, 5, "Thoreau" >>
CalecM
digression), I played Highland bagpipes for many years, and may be able to
offer some information:
The "Scotch Snap" which was well described earlier as a sixteenth followed by a
dotted eighth note at the beginning of a 4/4 bar is the typical tempo of the
class of tune known as a "Strathspey." Mark Lutton's comment that it gets
little use in ragtime seems consistent with my experience. However, when he
says, >Conversely, I don't think you'll find much use of the sixteenth -
>eighth - sixteenth cakewalk rhythm in Scots music.
I think I have to disagree. That rhythm is typical of the the hornpipe, a
common Scottish style, and similar to the Rant as it's found in English music.
Ah, sweet trivia!
Respectfully,
C. Alec MacLean
Mark Lutton
in "Ruddygore" by Arthur Sullivan which sounds as if the "Sailor's
Hornpipe" was the only one he ever heard. Those (probably not typical)
hornpipes have not a single dotted or syncopated note. (I guessed
(based on those) that the distinctive feature of the hornpipe was the
three long notes like three foot stomps at the end of every phrase.) At
least I know that there's nothing particularly nautical about the
hornpipe in itself; the reason sailors danced the hornpipe so much is
that you need a partner to do the waltz.
A friend of mine is a piper. I'll have to ask him about the cakewalk
rhythm.
Stan (The Train)
brings up a question...
I spend considerable time a Disneyland listening to the two "ragtime" main
st entertainers. AT LEAST
2 -3 players show up every day and sit in.. I have been doing this for three
years and have yet to see an "African-American" ragtime player ????
This is amazing since the 3 most famous composers were all "AA" - what going
on here ??
Stan - who if you chase hard enough can be seen down in the guts of
http://208.41.72.186/rodnal/fanpage.html
Thanx
"Tracy Doyle" <tr...@NospaM.rag-time.com> wrote in message
news:38523C69...@NospaM.rag-time.com...
Mark Lutton
Richard Berry (the photographer) come to mind -- but I think the
proportion is not high.
Here's my theory: The Black musicians were all busy inventing Ragtime
in the 19th century and now they're all busy inventing the music for the
21st century.
Mark Lutton
Hal Vickery
<mlu...@ma.ultranet.com> wrote:
> There are quite a few Black ragtime players -- Reginald Robinson and
> Richard Berry (the photographer) come to mind -- but I think the
> proportion is not high.
>
> Here's my theory: The Black musicians were all busy inventing Ragtime
> in the 19th century and now they're all busy inventing the music for the
> 21st century.
>
> Mark Lutton
>
>
>
> "Stan (The Train)" wrote:
> >
> > This is one of the most enjoyable threads I have seen in a while but it
> > brings up a question...
> >
> > I spend considerable time a Disneyland listening to the two "ragtime" main
> > st entertainers. AT LEAST
> > 2 -3 players show up every day and sit in.. I have been doing this for three
> > years and have yet to see an "African-American" ragtime player ????
> >
> > This is amazing since the 3 most famous composers were all "AA" - what going
> > on here ??
> > Stan - who if you chase hard enough can be seen down in the guts of
> > http://208.41.72.186/rodnal/fanpage.html
> >
> > Thanx
I've read this through and I just noticed something:
> > the 3 most famous composers were all "AA" - what going on here ??
I'd say the three most famous composers, at least of classic ragtime and
who always seemed to be mentioned in the same breath, would be Scott
Joplin, James Scott, and Joseph Lamb. Of those, the first two were
African-American. Of course if this refers to someone like Tom Turpin or
Eubie Blake, then the above quote is correct.
nsmf
KDAD40
>This is amazing since the 3 most famous composers were all "AA" - what going
>on here ??
2 of the 3, if you are talking about the 3 most important purveyors of "classic
ragtime"--Joseph Francis Lamb was of Irish Roman Catholic descent and born in
Montclair NJ in 1887; but the fact that he is in the pantheon with Scott Joplin
and James Scott gives a good idea of the universality of ragtime; seeing it as
a truly American idiom and not restricted to any particular ethnic group or
section of the country
Reg Pitts
KDA...@aol.com
Bill Edwards
Hal Vickery wrote:
>
> I'd say the three most famous composers, at least of classic ragtime and
> who always seemed to be mentioned in the same breath, would be Scott
> Joplin, James Scott, and Joseph Lamb. Of those, the first two were
> African-American. Of course if this refers to someone like Tom Turpin or
> Eubie Blake, then the above quote is correct.
>
> nsmf
I have a personal preference that mentions the FOUR great ragtime
composers, the fourth left out largely because of a low volume of
original compositions, but nonetheless influential and of genius level
in both writing and arranging. This, of course, is Artie Matthews, who
was African American, and did much to promote music within his community
in Cincinnatti throughout the 1920's and 1930's. His five briliant
Pastimes, as well as his known arrangements of Cactus, Jinx, Agigtaion,
Cataract, Junk Man, Lily, and Baby Seals Blues should certainly qualify
him as such. So I agree that there were three great AA composers, but
that the fourth White composer was equally as brilliant, and had he not
taken a day job in the mid 1910'a, would likely have had even more
output that remains today.
RAGards, Bill E.