Why do you like ragtime?
Mary Haley
I'd like to hear from folks who are ragtime fans about *why* they like
ragtime in particular. I'm interested because we all know that the
word "ragtime" has some negative connotations associated with it; that
it is rinky-tink music that is supposed to be play in salons on
out-of-tune upright pianos. When I tell my classical music friends
that I've attended concerts where ragtime was played on a 9-foot (in
tune) grand piano, they are amazed. They actually ask me, "But isn't
ragtime supposed to be played on an upright?"
From what I've read about Scott Joplin and from listening to his
compositions, he comes across as a very serious musician, one who
didn't enjoy the cutting contests, one who wanted his music played
with some degree of emotion, and not played fast and loud as I know
some ragtime players today do. I believe that if some classical music
fans gave Joplin's music a chance, they'd find the same qualities in it
that they are looking for in classical music. Do you agree?
Personally, my love for ragtime started when I was a kid, and then I
liked it because it was "happy-sounding" music with syncopation. Now,
however, I have grown to realize that not all of Joplin's (or other
ragtime composers' for that matter) compositions are just
"happy". Instead they are sorrowful, hopeful, innocent, joyous,
trustful, and playful. I am deeply moved by such pieces as "Solace",
"Weeping Willow", "Bethena", "Gladiolus Rag", and "Heliotrope
Bouquet". But, I've heard some players play these pieces fast and then
they lose their introspective qualities (for me, anyway).
I would like to know if people listen to ragtime for its happy,
syncopated quality, or if you get something more profound out of it.
Are there particular composers (dead or alive) that you have an
affinity towards? How about ragtime performers?
Please understand that I am not trying to be opinionated about how I
think ragtime should be played or regarded. I am simply interested in
other ragtime fan opinions on the music, its composers, and its performers.
Cheers,
Mary Haley
Oleg Mezjuev
On September 24 Mary Haley (ha...@ncar.ucar.edu) wrote:
> I'd like to hear from folks who are ragtime fans about *why*
> they like ragtime in particular. I'm interested because we all
> know that the word "ragtime" has some negative connotations
> associated with it; that it is rinky-tink music that is supposed
> to be play in salons on out-of-tune upright pianos. (...)
I loved this music long before I even knew it was called ragtime.
In the early 70's, when I lived in the Soviet Union, I used to
watch the silent movies of Charlie Chaplin on TV. I laughed myself
to death every time I saw his films and I also noticed that the
music in these movies also made me laugh. It was so happy, playful
and very exciting! Much later I realized that not all of it was
ragtime, but still, many of those pieces were syncopated.
In the early 80's I heard "The Entertainer". Still I didn't know
that the style in which it was written was called ragtime. Many
people called it "the music from "The Sting" from the early 70's"
why I went on to believe that this was a contemporary composition
written in the seventies or so. In 1984, when playing "The
Entertainer" on a piano at the Järfälla Chess Club, one guy asked
me if I knew when it was written. I said that I thought it was a
contemporary melody. He corrected me telling me that it was
probably written around 1902 or 1904. I couldn't belive that!
When in 1985 I heard my friend and co-ragger Peter Andersson play
the "Maple Leaf Rag" I asked him who was the the composer of this
rag. It turned out that it was also written by Joplin - the
composer of "The Entertainer"! And the style was called ragtime.
"Hmmm... very interesting indeed" I though and looked deeper into
this genre. "Original Rags", "Pine Apple Rag", "The Ragtime Dance",
"Easy Winners" etc... The list of these happy pieces which I loved
was getting long!
I purchased some ragtime LPs and one of these was Joshua Rifkin's
"Digital Ragtime: Music of Scott Joplin" (Capitol Records, 1980).
Joshua's interpretations gave ragtime a totally new dimension. It
no longer sounded like "honky-tonk" piano, this was something
different. This was a serious music - for a serious public. When
I heard Rifkin's version of "Heliotrope Bouquet" I realized that
ragtime could be something more than a "salon" music. "Gladiolus
Rag", "Leola", "Eugenia", "The Nonpareil", "Magnetic Rag" and other
pieces clearly demonstrated that.
Later I heard some modern rags ("Friday Night" by Donald Ashwander,
"Golden Hours" by Max Morath etc.) and I was glad to hear that
ragtime had developed into a serious music. For me ragtime was
no longer just "that happy music from the silent movies". And the
progress wouldn't end by that! I was completely overwhelmed by
the music of David Thomas Roberts, especially his "Camille",
"Roberto Clemente" and "For Molly Kaufmann". Wowwwwww! This was
something really special! From that day I would always argue
against those who said that ragtime was a simple and stereotyped
kind of music, which didn't belong in a concert hall.
My notion of ragtime is that it is to be considered as syncopated
classical music, rather than a "little brother" to jazz. Rags are
PRIMARILY composed (not imprivised) and should be played as they
were intended by the composer (with feeling and not too fast). Every
time pianists wouldn't follow these Joplin rules, ragtime would
sound like an easy-listening kind of music. And there is nothing
wrong with that! Ragtime could both be simply happy and extrovert
and also serious and introspective - each of these aspects would
balance each other. Ragtime is rich in so many ways and I am glad
that it is not being a one-sided type of music! That's why I love
it!
Sincerely,
Oleg Mezjuev
--
oleg.m...@mailbox.swipnet.se
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1790/
http://www.ragtimers.org/terra_verde/tvc.htm
steve_hoog
I guess I'd have to say I like ragtime as a consequence of my love for early
jazz (or as it's been dubbed for argument sake on the DJML--OKOM for Our Kind
Of Music). I remember sitting in Freshman Music Theory classes, and the prof
would frequently use Joplin as examples of great modulations and such. That
sparked an interest, and once I really got into the "dixie" music I started
realizing the relationship between the 2 genres. Good ragtime is, to me, as
valid as good Beethoven, Mozart, or Brahms, or even Schoenberg and Bartok. It's
concert music of the 20th century, which can be adapted from it's common
original instrumentation, piano, to many other formats. Any music which can be
adapted into so many forms and STILL retain it's validity, not to mention
appeal, HAS to be good.
bfa...@clandjop.com
>On September 24 Mary Haley (ha...@ncar.ucar.edu) wrote:
>
>> I'd like to hear from folks who are ragtime fans about *why*
>> they like ragtime in particular. I'm interested because we all
>> know that the word "ragtime" has some negative connotations
>> associated with it; that it is rinky-tink music that is supposed
>> to be play in salons on out-of-tune upright pianos. (...)
Ragtime music has always been impossible to hold still with.
Some part of my body (even if it's only my heart) is always moved by a
good rag.
Dixieland, while also a favorite of mine, is Ragtime's stepchild. The
origin of the word "jazz" should clue you in to what those non-music
reading improvisational musicians in New Orleans, with their
government surplus horns, were doing to that beautiful ragtime music
of Missouri (paraphrased from the great Bob Darch's "History of Modern
American Music").
To quote Bob Darch: "Ragtime dead? Hell, it ain't even sick!"
Tom Fahrig
bfa...@clandjop.com
Northampton Audio
This thread reminds me of a sex lecture I once attended. The speaker
walked to the podium, spread out his notes, cleared is throat and
began: "It give me great pleasure . . . ." and sat down.
Dick Moulding
Mike Nichols
ha...@ncar.ucar.edu (Mary Haley) wrote:
>I'd like to hear from folks who are ragtime fans about *why* they like
>ragtime in particular...
Hi, Mary! Well, it's a rather *large* question, but I'll give it a
shot. I should perhaps point out that I am *not* a musician (I can't
even read music!), but it would be hard to find a more enthusiastic
fan of ragtime than me! So maybe my views will be interesting for
being from someone who is "musically unlettered".
I first encountered ragtime through the three Nonesuch albums of Scott
Joplin's music performed by Joshua Rifkin back in the sixties. I was
in high school then and worked at the local radio station, which owned
these albums. Maybe that's why, for me, Joplin will always be the
King of ragtime. I've listened to lots of ragtime since, but Joplin
remains my favorite. He's the one I always come back to. His rags I
*never* get tired of. He just seems to be in a class of his own, and
on a higher plane than any other ragtime composer.
As you know, Rifkin's performances were that of a well-trained
classicist. They didn't sound "honky-tonk" or "rinky-tink".
Consequently, when I next heard ragtime being played in Shakey's Pizza
Parlors during my college years, I didn't at first realize I was
listening to the same music. And when I did realize it, I thought it
was a "debasement" of ragtime that I was hearing. Oh, I liked it well
enough, I suppose, for its good-timey, happy-sounding feel. But each
time they launched into a Joplin number, I was horrified that the
brisk pace robbed it of the beautiful *elegance* it should have had.
Consequently, I've always been most attracted to performers who
approach rags as, as Oleg put it, syncopated classical music. Rifkin
I still love. Also John Arpin. Scott Kirby for his thoughtful
interpretations and tasteful embellishments. Mimi Blais when she's
doing the slow ones. All these artists seem to appreciate the
elegance of ragtime.
I should perhaps note that in any list of favorite rags, the slow ones
predominate. "Bethena" will always be my favorite. "Solace" ,
"Heliotrope", Lamb's "Ragtime Nightingale". And of the newer rags,
someone already mentioned David Thomas Roberts' "Camille". Bolcom's
"Graceful Ghost". I suppose these would argue *against* my liking
rags for their "happy" sound. Many of my favorites have a haunting,
sad, bittersweet quality about them.
Not that I don't like the faster rags. I do. I just don't like them
pushed to the point where the notes blur into each other, and the
melody is lost. The best of the faster rags have a "flirtateous"
quality. They tease you with their catchy intricacies. Morath always
took the fast rags at the proper speed, I think.
For what it's worth, I've never been fond of jazz. Now, I realize
that many ragtime fans are also jazz fans. But I'm more of the John
Stark mindset, feeling that "jazz killed ragtime". Although we know
it didn't, really. But I've never liked pointless improvisation,
never liked playing *around* the melody instead of playing it, and I
was never too concerned about the virtuosity of the performer,
especially in how fast they could play it. This might be interesting
to fellow-musicians (hence, the cutting contests), but it sure
wouldn't produce music I'd want to listen to.
There were three other milestones that I can distinctly remember in my
years as a ragtime fan. The first was when, after years of having
Joplin albums and listening to Joplin pretty much exclusively
(including those wonderful Gunther Schuller concert band
arrangements!), I made a conscious effort to discover who else had
composed ragtime. And through reading, etc., opened up myself to a
wonderful world of period ragtime composers, especially Scott and
Lamb.
Then came the day I heard my first contemporary rags. I still
remember the thrill I felt to know that ragtime was still alive and
well. Of the contemporary composers, it is David Thomas Roberts that
has really stolen my heart. But I also like Jack Rummel and Brian
Keenan quite a lot. I also love some of Frank French's work,
especially "Belle of Louisville", but I must say I like his
compositions more than his performance style.
The third milestone was, after years of saying to myself "I really
must try to attend a ragtime festival some day", I finally went to
Sedalia. That was six years ago, and I haven't missed one since, nor
would I ever dream of missing one again.
Well, I could go on forever. (Or have I already?) I make myself lots
of "mix tapes" to listen to cuts of my favorite rags, and play them
all the time. My dear wife is so OD'd on them that she frequently
tells our friends, "You know, I *used* to kinda like ragtime!" as she
glares at me. :) My mix tapes include more ragtime band and songs
than one hears in most ragtime venues, since I feel these (especially
vocals) are too often ignored.
One final thing. I rather enjoy the fact that ragtime had its origins
in the bawdy houses and saloons, and seems to spring from the American
demi-monde of the turn-of-the-century. No wonder it has such a
flirtateous feel. And I firmly agree with Mae West's old line that
"People who are shocked easily need to be shocked more often." :)
But beyond that, the sound of ragtime invokes a quaint nostalgia that
I enjoy, of a simpler time, life lived with "Grace and Beauty" (to use
a James Scott title), one of Sunday afternoons in the parks, and
ice-cream socials. No other music can transport me as quickly out of
this frenzied modern life of paging beepers and Franklin planners.
Thanks, Mary, for posing such a thought-provoking question.
Cheers!
Ragtimbill
Why do I like Ragtime? Can't say for sure. It wasn't because I was taught it.
My first experience with the syncopated music that I can remember was the
background music to Ernie Kovaks' silent skits on TV when I was a little
boy (and a self-taught piano player). I also remember the shock when he
was killed in an auto accident in 1959 (?) and the skits were no more. I
found out much later that the music was taken from rag called Rialto
Ripples by George Gershwin. All I knew at the time was that I dearly
wanted to play it and couldn't even get started.
We moved to Joplin, MO in 1962 and my sister smuggled me in to the Dugout
Saloon in the old Holiday Inn to hear Bob Darch in about 1963, when I was
fifteen. I had been introduced to the Maple Leaf Rag (which Darch strongly
identified with back then) by a friend of mine, who loaned me the music and
I learned to play it. I had written a rag by that time, and got to play it
for Bob, who was appreciative (always has been, for that matter). I still
did not know beans about any of the other great Rag composers, I just knew
that I loved the music and wanted to play and write it.
Later my rags were to win contests and become published and recorded, but
my knowledge of the greater names of Ragtime came only gradually, as
materials became more and more available. Thank God for the Ragtime
Revival of the '70's! It made so much more music available to us!
Like others who have answered this thread, I love Dixieland, and have been
involved with bands since high school days. And, again like others, I
don't care all that much for Swing, Big Band, Progressive Jazz, etc. Once
again, can't tell you why. It just does not "move" me. Ragtime and
Dixieland still do.
Bill Rowland
2100 N. 26th
Broken Arrow, OK 74014
ragti...@aol.com
Don Kirkman
It has come to my attention that Mary Haley wrote in article
<608ipq$6cs$1...@ncar.ucar.edu>:
>I'd like to hear from folks who are ragtime fans about *why* they like
>ragtime in particular. I'm interested because we all know that the
>word "ragtime" has some negative connotations associated with it; that
>it is rinky-tink music that is supposed to be play in salons on
>out-of-tune upright pianos. When I tell my classical music friends
>that I've attended concerts where ragtime was played on a 9-foot (in
>tune) grand piano, they are amazed. They actually ask me, "But isn't
>ragtime supposed to be played on an upright?"
I accept the widespread opinion that Joplin intended his rags to be as
musically valid, as authentic, and (hopefully) as widely accepted as
European classical music. He and the best of the other rag writers
achieved that, I firmly believe (except maybe for the acceptance). Good
ragtime combines musical knowledge and ability with folkloric themes and
rhythms to produce something new and vital. And it's fun to listen to,
even the watered down striped shirt/red garters variety of the honky
tonk tradition. :-)
Someone else has mentioned that Dixieland (my other musical favorite)
grew out of ragtime; I think many of the early Dixieland jazz bands and
musicians in fact said they were playing ragtime, although the rhythm
gradually shifted from the 8 over 4 beats of ragtime to the 12 over 4 of
jazz and the form shifted from the common rondo and other classical
forms to the AABA form of much US popular music.
Among the old classical rag composers, I especially like Joplin, Lamb,
Scott, Aufdeheide, and Chauvin (little as we have of his work).
Contemporaries include Morath and Bolcom.
I think the nature of the piece should set the tempo, including rubato.
I simply can't play fast, but some pieces that are usually played fast
are even more beautiful if slowed down some.
--
Don
Helge Gundersen
ha...@ncar.ucar.edu (Mary Haley) wrote:
>I'd like to hear from folks who are ragtime fans about *why* they like
>ragtime in particular...
Oh, difficult to say. Except that it's a kind of music I primarily like to
*play*. I have to admit I haven't got a single ragtime LP or CD! I listen
to a lot of jazz, and I like all kinds of jazz including avant-garde.
Traditional jazz is the style I listen to the least. I also like baroque
classical music, especially keyboard music (J.S. Bach, D. Scarlatti). I
feel in some way it's natural to play ragtime and Bach. I don't know if
it's the harmony or what, but there's a relationship buried somewhere...
Among the rags, I don't care for the spectatular type, like "The
Entertainer's Rag". To me, ragtime combines the beautiful and the lively.
Many rags, perhaps most of them, are very lyrical pieces, and that
certainly include many inspired by "simple" folk music, not only the
"sophisticated" ones.
-- Helge
Preferred Customer
Mary Haley <ha...@ncar.ucar.edu> wrote in article
<608ipq$6cs$1...@ncar.ucar.edu>...
>
> I'd like to hear from folks who are ragtime fans about *why* they like
> ragtime in particular. [snip]
I'd like to add a thought of mine to what Mike said about nostalgic
feelings for a time of "Grace and Beauty"...Sunday afternoons in the
parks...etc.
Back then people weren't as saturated with music as we are today. It was
something special. We hear music (or some aproximation of it) most
everywhere we go. Some of us even have to hear someone else's radio at
work. My friends think I'm nuts because I drive without the radio on. It
doesn't seem like people in our frenzied modern life -- people who are
uncomfortable "in the quiet" -- really *enjoy* music that often. They just
listen to it.
Music that is something special, a treat to be savored, not just a
soundtrack to daily life -- I think that comes through in ragtime.
DVanAlst
Mary,
The responses to this question have been so thought-provoking
that you should post them on the ragtime home page (if that's
technologically possible).
I have often wondered *why* I'm such a fanatic about ragtime.
It's inexplicable at the most basic level -- I heard "The Entertainer" for
the first time in 1974 as a young teenager and it affected me as no other
music had, before or since. Although I was able to read music (I played
cello), I couldn't imagine how it would be notated and I couldn't seem to
keep the sounds in my head. A mail order to Publisher's Clearinghouse for
Dick Zimmerman's "Complete Works of Scott Joplin" soon followed, and I
"played the records to death," crouched over our small turntable listening
to each piece until I finally could keep the melodies in my mind and hum
them over at will. Then, I discovered there was a "Ragtime" LP section at
our local record store and cleared this out in a few visits -- and became
hooked on ragtime by other composers. And then, I discovered that if I
looked diligently, I could find ragtime 78s (which also played on our
turntable) and *actual ragtime sheet music*.
Over the 23 ensuing years, my enthusiasm hasn't waned -- in
fact, it's grown greater. In law school in 1985 I picked up a record
called "The Amazon Rag" and for the first time heard "Camille," a
composition mentioned by at least two other writers as one of their
favorites. Well, it's one of mine too. What followed (and is still
continuing) is my search for any ragtime I can hear by modern composers.
There are several musical and non-musical features that, for
me, distinguish ragtime from other genres of music.
First, there is the thrill of rediscovery. Thousands of rags
were written around the turn of the century; it seems that the vast
majority still haven't been recorded or played in 90 years. When I unearth
an obscure rag at the flea market, I think, "This is such great music, and
it was lost for so long!" It's the duty of Americans to preserve this
heritage. For that reason, I always try to supply copies of sheet music
requested on the ragtime home page. The more people who have copies of
these pieces, the less likely they are to slip back into obscurity. And
they shouldn't!!!
Second, ragtime -- especially modern ragtime -- is such a
personal music for the composers. It's not created by a producer in a
record studio. It's written and played by real people, many of whom I
have met on this page. Oleg Mezjuev, for example, just sent me copies of
his intricate, carefully notated, and evocative pieces. It's clear he made
a great investment of his own soul in those compositions. That, I think,
is why ragtime recordings have more extensive liner notes than any other
records I've seen. The artists and composers said something important
about themselves in these pieces, and they want to share it with the
listener. (Read the liner notes on DTR's albums for an example.)
Third, the music itself, for me, remains like no other. The
best ragtime (Joplin's "Nonpareil," DTR's "Camille" and "Tallahassee," Hal
Isbitz's "At Midnight," Ashwander's "Perdido Bay Moon Rag") gives me a
feeling of inevitable, graceful, forward motion. It has a singing with an
underlying sadness, that is peculiar to ragtime alone. Musics that are
historically related (Dixieland Jazz, Novelty Piano) seem to have only one
mood. They are missing that reflectiveness, that ambiguity, and (as
another poster stated) that grace and beauty that we look for in rags.
The result: I am constantly seeking recordings of piano or
orchestral ragtime I haven't heard, particularly modern compositions. To
me, "Terra Verde" is great stuff -- it's what Joplin was all about after
1907 -- pushing the boundaries of the rag form, and incorporating the best
elements of other musics to enrich the texture of ragtime compositions. If
there are more ragtime compositions out there, new or old, bring 'em on. I
have an unlimited appetite for joy in music.
Fred Brodie
dvan...@aol.com
Mary Haley
In article <19970928150...@ladder02.news.aol.com> dvan...@aol.com (DVanAlst) writes:
>Mary,
>
> The responses to this question have been so thought-provoking
>that you should post them on the ragtime home page (if that's
>technologically possible).
>
Hi Fred,
I was thinking the same thing! The response has been overwhelming, and
I want to thank everybody for taking the time to email or post their
thoughts on what ragtime is for them. I will be contacting everybody
(via email) who posted a response asking for their permission to
include their response on the ragtime home page.
I apologize for not responding to people individually on this topic.
I've just had so much email on the subject, that I don't have the time
to send a thought-provoking response to each one. I've read every one
thoroughly and really enjoyed the varying comments; keep them coming in!
Cheers,
Mary
Hear ye
Ragtime tunes remind me of a time I never lived through.
I was born in the late seventies. The popular music then, through the 80s
and now just lacks something. Most of it does anyways. It's either too
silly or too false introspective or depressing or whatever.
The music brings to mind smokey cafes or big ol' outdoor carnivals where a
band of old buddies are having the time of their lives playing for the
crowds.
I love ragtime because it has so much soul. Horns wailing, pianos being
bashed, the whole band singing along at the chorus. It's just happy music:)
It can just lift your spirits like nothing else.
I don't know if that makes sense to anyone. But that's what I love about
ragtime.
Bugsy
MrCrash33
Because I've never heard a sweeter sound of pure joy than in the Magnetic Rag's
most splendiferous sections.
cava...@gmail.com
Well, ragtime overall just gives a nostalgic and happy, sometimes melancholic, and like Joplin's piece, it gives "solace".
I came across ragtime in my teen years, and have been hooked on it ever since, jumping from classical, bebop, funk, and back to ragtime. Even tried to compose a few piece of ragtime too!
John Grogan
> I'd like to hear from folks who are ragtime fans about *why* they like
> word "ragtime" has some negative connotations associated with it; that
> it is rinky-tink music that is supposed to be play in salons on
> out-of-tune upright pianos. When I tell my classical music friends
> that I've attended concerts where ragtime was played on a 9-foot (in
> tune) grand piano, they are amazed. They actually ask me, "But isn't
> ragtime supposed to be played on an upright?"