AOR Bands
SHANNON JOHN J
actually enjoy some "classic" AOR bands, and if they like any of the bands I
think are top-notch. Admittedly, prog bands like Tull, Yes, Kansas, ELP, and
Floyd all fall under the AOR rubric, but what about...
Steely Dan - I realize that they get a bit cheesy with their heavy 70's sound
sometimes, but I like the combination of well-written songs and excellent
guitar work. "Tho Royal Scam", "Aja", and "Can't Buy a Thrill" are favorites;
the live "Alive in America" is exceptional for its arrangements, and "Two
Against Nature" was one of the better 'comebacks' I've ever heard (for
instance, "What A Shame About Me").
Cheap Trick - You could argue that, after The Beatles, rock music went two
ways: one way of which is epitomized by XTC, the other way epitomized by Cheap
Trick. Great vocals, good humor, superb melodic rock. First five albums are a
tour de force, but don't neglect 1997's Red Ant release (the second eponymous
"Cheap Trick") which is a tremendous return to form for this band. Yes, OK,
they rotted in the 80's, and "The Flame" is melodramatic crap, but when they
rock, they roll. A better post-Beatles rock singer than Robin Zander? No....
XTC - As I've read elsewhere, a pop band for prog fans. "Oranges and Lemons",
"English Settlement", "Skylarking", "Nonesuch", and "Apple Venus Vol. 1" are
all high-quality rock recordings; if you want to hear decent Beatle-esque
lyrics and melodic composition, and text-book pop bass guitar playing, this is
the band to investigate. They have some duds ("Mummer", "Wasp Star", The Dukes
of Stratosphear stuff) so be warned, but overall consistently fine music.
Queen - OK, some times over-the-top tackiness, but when they're on, look out!
Really, another extension of The Beatles. I like the "A Night at the Opera" -
"A Day at the Races" - "News of the World" triumvirate: AOR at it's finest.
Freddie gets a little too gay at points, but amazing pipes, and, even if you
don't care for the tone of Brian May's guitar, still, his playing is nearly
perfect: like George Harrison, a melodic guitarist of the first order. Roger
Taylor's songs are pretty decent, and I love the fact that they all wrote (even
the bassist John Deacon, who doesn't sing, wrote signature songs).
The Beatles - I'm not even going to try: you already know....
The Kinks - Ray Davies is the second-best rock lyricist of all-time, after JL.
A great catalog. I prefer them in the late 70's-early 80's ("Misfits",
"Sleepwalker", "Give the People What They Want", "Low Budget") but I'll listen
to anything by this band. I laugh at "Sunny Afternoon" everytime I hear it.
After The Beatles, I think The Who and The Kinks were the best British Invasion
bands - fuck The Stones! (Although I love The Stones from "Exile on Main
Street" through "Tattoo You").
Yes, all 60's and 70's stuff, I know, but that's when AOR was THE top dog.
Plenty of ear-catching stuff in the 80's and 90's, but these bands stand out
for me. Rock radio was great in the 70's....
You can ask the Sun.
You can ask the sky.
You can ask the sea, but don't blame the waves when they tell you nothing.
R. R. Fingerhead
Lyle V. Lopez
> Steely Dan - I realize that they get a bit cheesy with their heavy 70's sound
> sometimes, but I like the combination of well-written songs and excellent
> guitar work. "Tho Royal Scam", "Aja", and "Can't Buy a Thrill" are favorites;
> the live "Alive in America" is exceptional for its arrangements, and "Two
> Against Nature" was one of the better 'comebacks' I've ever heard (for
> instance, "What A Shame About Me").
They're one of my favorite non-prog bands. I actually consider them to be
*prog-lite* because some of their music is quite complex (at least to me anyway),
that is, their chords are a bitch to play on guitar :) But it doesn't really matter
how they get classified, their music is great!
Alive in America is indeed exceptional with blistering guitar work from a chap
named Drew Zingg. What else has he done?
--
Lyle V. Lopez <ly...@bu.edu>
Section of Molecular Genetics
Whitaker Cardiovascular Institute
Boston University School of Medicine
SHANNON JOHN J
>chap
>named Drew Zingg. What else has he done?
No answer, but...the drumming is pretty spectacular on "AiA" as well.
atom
SHANNON JOHN J wrote:
> I was just curious, really, about how many progressive rock fans in this ng
> actually enjoy some "classic" AOR bands, and if they like any of the bands I
> think are top-notch. Admittedly, prog bands like Tull, Yes, Kansas, ELP, and
> Floyd all fall under the AOR rubric, but what about...
>
> Steely Dan - I realize that they get a bit cheesy with their heavy 70's sound
> sometimes, but I like the combination of well-written songs and excellent
> guitar work.
Nothing at all cheesy about Steely Dan, IMO. I think they are on a short list of
the best bands of all time.
Matt P
L. Perez
>Floyd all fall under the AOR rubric
well, considering it means Album Oriented Rock (the other kind of Rock
presumably being Singles Oriented) by definition everything that's not
specifically geared toward top 40 Pop radio is AOR.
>XTC - As I've read elsewhere, a pop band for prog fans. "Oranges and
>Lemons",
>"English Settlement", "Skylarking", "Nonesuch", and "Apple Venus Vol. 1" are
>all high-quality rock recordings; if you want to hear decent Beatle-esque
>lyrics and melodic composition, and text-book pop bass guitar playing, this
>is
>the band to investigate. They have some duds ("Mummer", "Wasp Star", The
>Dukes
>of Stratosphear stuff) so be warned, but overall consistently fine music.
English Settlement is their finest hour IMO but Mummer is one of their 3 best
also.
>Yes, all 60's and 70's stuff, I know, but that's when AOR was THE top dog.
>Plenty of ear-catching stuff in the 80's and 90's, but these bands stand out
>for me. Rock radio was great in the 70's....
The term AOR was coined in the 70s but that doesn't mean a 00s(double ott?)
band cant be AOR.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perez is under the impression that if he likes it, it must be Prog"
L. perezia funkadelica clintoniensis badassius bootii
Zero the Hero
> Nothing at all cheesy about Steely Dan, IMO. I think they are on a short list of
> the best bands of all time.
My heart might stop if I type this, but I think I agree with you :-)
--
Jason Ellerbee - jel...@unf.edu
DREAMS WIDE AWAKE radio show - http://www.unf.edu/~jeller/dreams.html
Now broadcasting on the Internet!
'Pre-menopause? What, is that like pre-death?'
-- Patty (Bess Armstrong) in _My So-Called Life_
DTohir
>Lemons",
>"English Settlement", "Skylarking", "Nonesuch", and "Apple Venus Vol. 1" are
>all high-quality rock recordings; if you want to hear decent Beatle-esque
>lyrics and melodic composition, and text-book pop bass guitar playing, this
>is
>the band to investigate. They have some duds ("Mummer", "Wasp Star", The
>Dukes
>of Stratosphear stuff) so be warned, but overall consistently fine music.
>
Can't say I've ever considered them AOR, but they are a great band. I don't
agree, though, with what you've listed as "duds". "Mummer" & "Wasp Star" are
both very good, and the Dukes of Stratosphear records are excellent. The only
dud they put out in my book is "Go 2"
Joseph Shelby
>
> atom <#xk...@popd.ix.netcom.com> spluttered:
> > Nothing at all cheesy about Steely Dan, IMO. I think they are on a short list of
> > the best bands of all time.
>
> My heart might stop if I type this, but I think I agree with you :-)
Steely Dan bores the shit out of me. They are the epitome of blandness.
A major element of good prog is that it defies categorization (aside
from "Prog" itself). There are so many elements of blues, jazz, avant guarde,
classical, folk, pure-rock (whatever that is) and world music, in rather complex
and varying combinations, as to make it interesting and creative and innovative
(over the standard "pop" crap we hate so much ;-) ). It never feels like it
fits directly into any one of these categories...hence, its impossible to
get any airplay out of it...
Steely Dan is the opposite. Instead of defying categorization by
being on the edge of so many genres, they defy it by being the blandest
example of the center of each of them. They're old enough for the classic-rock
stations (and even some "oldies" stations), rock enough for the AOR stations,
70s enough for 70s-only stations, mellow enough for "adult-contemporary" stations,
still popular enough for a top-40 station to play them when they feel like
playing older music (as they do occasionally), popular enough among college
kids to make college radio playlists, and, damnitall, hick-sounding enough
to make the occasional country station.
Basically, they were so "playable" that almost every station in the fucking world
can play them and not feel like they're breaking their genre.
Don't think i'm kidding. During my university years, there was not one
station in the area (Harrisonburg, VA) except for the classical and
news-talk ones that wouldn't play at least _1_ Steely Dan song.
That kind of blandness I can do without.
Joe
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Shelby mailto:acro...@io.com
"The people of England will permit anything...except cruelty to horses
and a rise in the price of beer." -- Return of the Musketteers (1989)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
SHANNON JOHN J
>presumably being Singles Oriented) by definition everything that's not
>specifically geared toward top 40 Pop radio is AOR.
Yes.
>English Settlement is their finest hour IMO but Mummer is one of their 3 best
>also.
>
Sorry, I hate "Mummer", except "Love on a Farmboy's Wages".
>The term AOR was coined in the 70s but that doesn't mean a 00s(double ott?)
>band cant be AOR.
>
Yes, except: do bands still try to make whole recordings?
SHANNON JOHN J
Yes, true, mental slip-up.
> "Mummer" & "Wasp Star" are
>both very good, and the Dukes of Stratosphear records are excellent.
Listened to all of it, but I never cared for any of that stuff. Just personal
preference.
atom
DTohir wrote:
I know "AOR" literally means "album oriented rock," but I had kind of assumed
that this phrase had basically become synonymous with "arena rock" over the years
-- thereby being inclusive of Journey, Styx, Kansas, etc., but definitely not
including XTC, Steely Dan, and others that were listed.
Matt P
atom
gondola bob wrote:
> shanno...@cs.com (SHANNON JOHN J) wrote:
>
> > You could argue that, after The Beatles, rock music went two
> > ways: one way of which is epitomized by XTC, the other way epitomized by Cheap
> > Trick.
>
> Maybe *you* can, but I sure can't.
Me neither First of all, what happend to 1970-1976? Anyway, I seem to recall
dozens of bands that went the way epitomized by Led Zeppelin.
> GB, who adores XTC, Beatles and pre-1972ish Kinks; likes early Cheap
> Trick and the poppier, less pompous side of Queen; and grimaces at the
> thought of Steely Dan
That's an orgasmic grimace, right? :)
Matt P
SHANNON JOHN J
>Trick and the poppier, less pompous side of Queen;
We have lots to talk about here but...
> and grimaces at the
>thought of Steely Dan
what's wrong with SD? What do you hate about them? (I know, I know: too
polished, too pseudo-sophisticated, and Fagen's voice.)
ScippyLisp
>Queen - OK, some times over-the-top tackiness, but when they're on, look out!
>
Queen Rules!!!
Hey, check out Queen I sometime soon. It really is rather proggy in a subdued
Italian sort of way.
s
e
a
n
SHANNON JOHN J
>from "Prog" itself).
Your thesis refutes itself.
If you dislike SD, fair enough, but they were one of the significant rock bands
to incorporate jazz modalities, pushing the boundaries of the standard rock
musical idiom: they helped the genre progress....
Martin Nike
> XTC - As I've read elsewhere, a pop band for prog fans. "Oranges and
Lemons",
> "English Settlement", "Skylarking", "Nonesuch", and "Apple Venus Vol. 1"
are
> all high-quality rock recordings; if you want to hear decent Beatle-esque
> lyrics and melodic composition, and text-book pop bass guitar playing,
this is
> the band to investigate. They have some duds ("Mummer", "Wasp Star", The
Dukes
> of Stratosphear stuff) so be warned, but overall consistently fine music.
Wasp Star 1 and 2 are my favourite XTC albums...
And I can't think of any Steely Dan that is "cheesy"
atom
Joseph Shelby wrote:
> Zero the Hero wrote:
> >
> > atom <#xk...@popd.ix.netcom.com> spluttered:
> > > Nothing at all cheesy about Steely Dan, IMO. I think they are on a short list of
> > > the best bands of all time.
> >
> > My heart might stop if I type this, but I think I agree with you :-)
>
> Steely Dan bores the shit out of me. They are the epitome of blandness.
>
> A major element of good prog is that it defies categorization (aside
> from "Prog" itself). There are so many elements of blues, jazz, avant guarde,
> classical, folk, pure-rock (whatever that is) and world music, in rather complex
> and varying combinations, as to make it interesting and creative and innovative
> (over the standard "pop" crap we hate so much ;-) ). It never feels like it
> fits directly into any one of these categories...hence, its impossible to
> get any airplay out of it...
>
> Steely Dan is the opposite. Instead of defying categorization by
> being on the edge of so many genres, they defy it by being the blandest
> example of the center of each of them.
This is crazy. Steely Dan makes pretty off-centered music, which has been considered by
more than one progressive rock commentator (Bill Martin, for example) as being one of the
only examples of real "American" progressive rock (in that Steely Dan used stylings and
influences from other forms of music -- though in their case, purely American musics --
to make something entirely new and unique.
Of course, you don't have to like what they were doing, but denying them their due as
music innovators and prehaps the most literate band ever is *really* a failure to
accurately perceive what exactly they were doing.
> They're old enough for the classic-rock
> stations (and even some "oldies" stations), rock enough for the AOR stations,
> 70s enough for 70s-only stations, mellow enough for "adult-contemporary" stations,
> still popular enough for a top-40 station to play them when they feel like
> playing older music (as they do occasionally), popular enough among college
> kids to make college radio playlists, and, damnitall, hick-sounding enough
> to make the occasional country station.
>
> Basically, they were so "playable" that almost every station in the fucking world
> can play them and not feel like they're breaking their genre.
It's part of what makes it all so funny. I wonder how many radio stations actually
*listened* to the lyrics of the songs that they were playing by the band.
>
>
> Don't think i'm kidding. During my university years, there was not one
> station in the area (Harrisonburg, VA) except for the classical and
> news-talk ones that wouldn't play at least _1_ Steely Dan song.
>
> That kind of blandness I can do without.
Popularity = blandness?
Prog snob?
Matt P
Arthur Boff
dog.
> >Plenty of ear-catching stuff in the 80's and 90's, but these bands stand
out
> >for me. Rock radio was great in the 70's....
>
> The term AOR was coined in the 70s but that doesn't mean a 00s(double
ott?)
"Naughties".
SHANNON JOHN J
>that this phrase had basically become synonymous with "arena rock" over the
>years
>-- thereby being inclusive of Journey, Styx, Kansas, etc., but definitely not
>including XTC, Steely Dan, and others that were listed.
Sorry, I didn't mean that at all. I would call your examples arena rock, and
AOR, but I just meant music that was radio-dominating in the 60's, 70's and
80's, when the format was acceptable for radio programming. Kansas is prog and
AOR.
SHANNON JOHN J
>recall
>dozens of bands that went the way epitomized by Led Zeppelin.
Yes, I made a bad generalization. I meant only that Cheap Trick was a "White
Album"/"Let It Be" type Beatles-inspired band, and XTC was a "Sgt.
Pepper"/"Abbey Road" type Beatles- inspired band.
Joseph Shelby
>
> >A major element of good prog is that it defies categorization (aside
> >from "Prog" itself).
>
> Your thesis refutes itself.
>
> If you dislike SD, fair enough, but they were one of the significant rock bands
> to incorporate jazz modalities, pushing the boundaries of the standard rock
> musical idiom: they helped the genre progress....
which genre? cheezy 70s post-patridge-family & pre-disco pop? that's all i hear in them.
I didn't hear any "jazz modalities" in anything of there's...occasionally a
jazz-like fill, but nothing in terms of modality-based expressions like, say,
Allan Holdsworth achieves. what "jazz" they play is the kind that lounge acts do,
and that was a kind of jazz that i think rock could have done without.
you know, suppose later-years Frank Sinatra had a rock band...
they had harmonies better done by CSN, country-blues riffs better done by the
doobies, generally stuck to only 4 base key signatures
(hell, i just listened to all the samples @ cdnow of "Show Biz Kids"
and at times would be hard pressed to tell the difference between
several of the tracks, even those years apart in the making).
bland, emotionless, fluff...and (side note) it is so fucking easy
to get sick to death of the processing they put on the lead singer
(again, a sound completely unchanged throughout the bands entire career).
if it was influential to anything, it was influential to other parts
of 70s music that rather overtly date themselves to that time...like
the background lounge music on The Love Boat. it doesn't project timelessness
(like, say, King Crimson). It screams 70s. All the emotionless blandness
of the mid-70s comes through crystal clear, that same emotionlessnes that
disco later held up as an ideal. i reject that as being anything praiseworthy.
all the skill in the world is nothing if there's so little emotion behind
what you do that it doesn't come across even to someone who doesn't like
the genre or style.
"its gripless. i'm completely ungripped" -- Dave Lister of Red Dwarf.
Joseph Shelby
> Popularity = blandness?
no. emotionless == blandness.
Steely Dan's music has (to me) no emotional content at all. Its just
there. it just sits there. doesn't move. doesn't budge. doesn't
progress. at the end of a song, i'm no different from what i
was at the beginning. and neither is the band.
the band that quit in the early 80s was exactly the same
band (sound and feel wise) as the band that first released in 1972.
Like the Rolling Stones (good band, but today are still no better than
they were in 1964...no worse, and that's saying something...but no better),
Steely Dan was a band that never grew from where they started.
emotion leads to or comes out of growth.
the absense of growth shows the absense of emotion.
And "Two Against Nature" shows them in even worse shape -- not only
not growing at all, but a pure imitation of their 70s days. its just
the same damn thing. The album title is totally appropriate.
Nature demands that people grow and change. The two of them have done neither.
Joseph Shelby
>
> >I know "AOR" literally means "album oriented rock," but I had kind of assumed
> >that this phrase had basically become synonymous with "arena rock" over the
> >years
> >-- thereby being inclusive of Journey, Styx, Kansas, etc., but definitely not
> >including XTC, Steely Dan, and others that were listed.
>
> Sorry, I didn't mean that at all. I would call your examples arena rock, and
> AOR, but I just meant music that was radio-dominating in the 60's, 70's and
> 80's, when the format was acceptable for radio programming. Kansas is prog and
> AOR.
Depends on the time. Kansas in the 80s was like 80s Yes. Arena rock that
occassionally played their old prog rock stuff live, but the current
lineup of the time had no intention of actually trying to compose new Prog.
SHANNON JOHN J
!
SHANNON JOHN J
>what you do that it doesn't come across even to someone who doesn't like
>the genre or style.
Well, I disagree with you, and I regard songs like "Don't Take Me Alive",
"Deacon Blues", and "Reelin' In The Years" to be highly emotionally-charged
songs. But enough: you don't like them, I do. Are they more or less timeless
than King Crimson? I don't know....
SHANNON JOHN J
>pornographic.
Yes! YES!
atom
Joseph Shelby wrote:
> atom wrote:
> > Popularity = blandness?
>
> no. emotionless == blandness.
>
> Steely Dan's music has (to me) no emotional content at all. Its just
> there. it just sits there. doesn't move. doesn't budge. doesn't
> progress. at the end of a song, i'm no different from what i
> was at the beginning. and neither is the band.
> the band that quit in the early 80s was exactly the same
> band (sound and feel wise) as the band that first released in 1972.
This is crazy. 'Gaucho' and 'Aja' don't sound anything like the band that made
'Can't Buy a Thrill' and 'Countdown to Ecstacy.'
>
> Like the Rolling Stones (good band, but today are still no better than
> they were in 1964...no worse, and that's saying something...but no better),
> Steely Dan was a band that never grew from where they started.
Factually untrue.
>
>
> emotion leads to or comes out of growth.
> the absense of growth shows the absense of emotion.
>
> And "Two Against Nature" shows them in even worse shape -- not only
> not growing at all, but a pure imitation of their 70s days.
Actually, more an imitation of their '80s days (it sounds a lot like 'Gaucho' and
Fagan's solo album 'Nightfly.'). A great imitation, too. The #2 album of 2000 by
my rankings.
You'd get a kick out of the negative reviews that comprised the booklet to their
box set. I'll post a few when I dig it out. Only a band assured of their
brilliance (or who entirely didn't give a damn) would fill their box-set booklet
with only negative review clippings.
Matt P
Joseph Shelby
> Actually, more an imitation of their '80s days (it sounds a lot like 'Gaucho' and
> Fagan's solo album 'Nightfly.'). A great imitation, too. The #2 album of 2000 by
> my rankings.
Why imitate? this already demonstrates they made no attempt at aiming for growth,
but cashing in on a popular sound. maybe, yeah, its their own popular sound, but
they're still just making that record to cash in.
> You'd get a kick out of the negative reviews that comprised the booklet to their
> box set. I'll post a few when I dig it out. Only a band assured of their
> brilliance (or who entirely didn't give a damn) would fill their box-set booklet
> with only negative review clippings.
I'd rather have seen a balance. But filling a box set with negative reviews
(with or without positive) also had already been done: King Crimson Frame By Frame,
which extends what Fripp had already done with "Young Person's Guide" back in 1975.
gee, not even innovative there, either...
I'm also glad somebody else has the opinion they're a "lounge" act.
SHANNON JOHN J
>made
>'Can't Buy a Thrill' and 'Countdown to Ecstacy.'
I second that; SD went from guitar-laden rock (a la The Doobies) to
keyboard-driven jazz-rock. Love them or hate them, but SD did expand during
theircareer. "Two Against Nature" is retro - OK, granted. But Yes' output
over the last 10 years has sucked cock, and Tull's is only slightly better.
SHANNON JOHN J
>my rankings.
What was #1? You know, I didn't care for "TAN" after three listens, and I sold
the disc. But I was in a neighborhood bar not too long ago, and the CD was in
the jukebox, so I played "What A Shame About Me" and it sounded just fine.
There is a certain something lacking from this recording (Lyrics a bit trite?
Mediocred melodies? Too-much Walter Becker guitar sound? I'm not sure...),
but it's not the worst 'comeback' I've ever heard, that's for sure.
atom
SHANNON JOHN J wrote:
> >The #2 album of 2000 by
> >my rankings.
>
> What was #1? You know, I didn't care for "TAN" after three listens, and I sold
> the disc. But I was in a neighborhood bar not too long ago, and the CD was in
> the jukebox, so I played "What A Shame About Me" and it sounded just fine.
> There is a certain something lacking from this recording (Lyrics a bit trite?
> Mediocred melodies? Too-much Walter Becker guitar sound? I'm not sure...),
> but it's not the worst 'comeback' I've ever heard, that's for sure.
Here's my top 5
1. Ghostface Killah -- Supreme Clientele (Outkast's album was very good but this
one is one of the best ten rap albums I've ever heard)
2. Steely Dan -- 2vN
3. Apples in Stereo -- Discovery of a world inside the moone (catchiest melodies
of the year)
4. Primal Scream -- Exterminator
5. D'atachi -- We are very well, thank you (electronic)
Matt P
atom
Joseph Shelby wrote:
> atom wrote:
> > Actually, more an imitation of their '80s days (it sounds a lot like 'Gaucho' and
> > Fagan's solo album 'Nightfly.'). A great imitation, too. The #2 album of 2000 by
> > my rankings.
>
> Why imitate? this already demonstrates they made no attempt at aiming for growth,
> but cashing in on a popular sound.
No, it means that there are still possiblities in that style of music (which they proved
once again, to brilliant effect). And since this album only sounds like one, possibly
two of their other albums, repetition ad naseum is hardly the case here. It's
everything anybody could possibly have hoped for, and much, much more.
> maybe, yeah, its their own popular sound, but
> they're still just making that record to cash in.
Steely Dan making a record to "cash in?" Cash in on what? This is a band that stopped
performing live two years into their existence, and whose singles charted about as high
as Yes' for most of their career, and who hadn't made an album in 20 years. Maybe those
decidedly minor hits and album cuts from the '70s keep getting played on radio stations
of all formats because there is a universal appeal to them.
Yep -- limelight, spotlight and hit singles -- that's the Steely Dan legacy, all
right.
Matt P
Jeff Blanks
>I didn't hear any "jazz modalities" in anything of there's...occasionally a
>jazz-like fill, but nothing in terms of modality-based expressions like, say,
>Allan Holdsworth achieves.
Listen to the title cut of _Aja_. And listen _past_ the production and
the Rhodes piano--those are obviously skewing your ear (and thereby your
brain). You may not _like_ them any better (I don't like them that much
myself, largely for the same reasons), but you oughta come out at least
_appreciating_ them. Think of SD as the hip, cynically arty version of
the music you think it is--Serge Gainsbourg or Tom Waits in Leisure-Suit
Larry's body.
>All the emotionless blandness of the mid-70s comes through crystal clear, that
>same emotionlessnes that disco later held up as an ideal.
World-weariness (the predominant emotion behind SD) is pretty hard to
express in an aggressive, visceral manner. But maybe it just doesn't
reach _you_. After all, plenty of rock critics consider Yes and ELP
emotionless (whatever that means in the first place--it's harder to pin
down than one thinks at first).
--
The old is dying and the new cannot be born. In the interregnum, a
variety of strange and morbid symptoms appears. --Antonio Gramsci
Squirrel Police
>Here's my top 5
>
>1. Ghostface Killah -- Supreme Clientele (Outkast's album was very good but
this one is one of the best ten rap albums I've ever heard)
Gaah. I don't understand the appeal of this one; Ghostie may have a
kinda-clever lyrical style (I like all the food metaphors), but he doesn't
seem to have much grasp on form or structure. Good for a track or two, but his
raps are so similar they just blend together into a homogenous pulp (kind of
like a live hip-hop show). I'm not very good at lists, but I'd place
definitely Outkast or Deltron 3030 over this.
2. Steely Dan -- 2vN
I'm with the naysayers on this one. Low energy, uninspired writing, trite
trite trite.
>3. Apples in Stereo -- Discovery of a world inside the moone (catchiest
> melodies of the year)
I also don't identify with the adulation this one recieves. I'm a huge
fan of Elephant 6, but my favorite thing about the collective is how they
infuse 60s pop-psychedelia with their own wacky lo-fi experimentation ethic.
This album just seemed too smooth and streamlined, not nearly as exciting as
Olivia Tremor Control's "Singles and Beyond," or Elf Power's "Winter Is
Coming," also released this year. Have you heard either of those yet?
>4. Primal Scream -- Exterminator
See above. Nothing against the band or the album, I just don't understand the
adulation. Sure, it is innovative to mix Prodigy-style techno-rock with lazy
punk vocals. I'm just not sure it's an noteworthy innovation.
atom
gondola bob wrote:
> Matt:
> > Here's my top 5
> > 1. Ghostface Killah -- Supreme Clientele
> > 2. Steely Dan -- 2vN
> > 3. Apples in Stereo -- Discovery of a world inside the moone
> > 4. Primal Scream -- Exterminator
> > 5. D'atachi -- We are very well, thank you (electronic)
>
> Huh...I haven't even heard of D'atachi. What are his/their virtues?
It's of the "drill & bass" variety, reminiscient of early Squarepusher and
Autechre to some extent but with a better use of melody, IMO.
>
>
> FYI, the results of Village Voice's national Pazz & Jop poll came out
> on Valentine's Day -- both Ghostface Killah and Steely Dan placed in
> the top 20. Primal Scream is in the top 40, as well. It's the closest
> thing there is to a "definitive" critics' poll, as you probably know.
Which is a strength and limitation. It's a good "consensus" poll, but
when you see the actual top 10s submitted by the various critics, you can
see how provincial some of the lists are, which ultimately means that the
more well-known artists are going to appear near the top of the final
list. What I mean is that somebody like Chuck Eddy, who basically is a
rock and roll guy, will listen to only a limited number of albums outside
his area of primary focus, and he'll probably only do so if there is a
buzz around something. So if Eminem and Outkast are among the few rap
albums that he hears and he likes them, they'll get votes (but he probably
didn't hear a lot of other deserving but lesser known hip hop albums);
likewise, somebody who primarily is into R&B and hip hop probably also
heard the U2 album and Kid A album, but may not have delved too heavily
into other albums in the same vein. So you have what happens almost every
year in that poll -- the top 10 is pretty much made up of artists of
either long-standing critical buzz (so it was heard by nearly all the
critics) or was the flavor-of-the-year in a particular genre (so it was
also heard by nearly all the critics).
FWIW, I liked the Outkast album too (had it at #20 in my personal list),
but think it's too bad that Outkast didn't break big commercially a couple
of years ago -- when they had an even better album out (Aquemeni).
> I'm a fan of about 10 of those albums, but I haven't even heard half
> the others (including Primal, Ghostface and Steely). I'd be most
> curious to hear the Shelby Lynne, At the Drive-In,
I couldn't believe the amount of hype these guys were getting in the
year-end polls, so I had to go and check the album out. I was expecting a
bad Rage Against the Machine clone, but was pleasantly surprised. The
'Rage' elements are mostly just the manner of vocal delivery -- this is
really a kind of melding of 'Kick Out the Jams'-era MC5 and grunge, but
there's also a certain artiness there that was surprising. Maybe they
used to listen to Rush.
Matt P
atom
Squirrel Police wrote:
> In article <3A8F3905...@popd.ix.netcom.com>, #ltri...@popd.ix.netcom.com wrote:
> >Here's my top 5
> >
> >1. Ghostface Killah -- Supreme Clientele (Outkast's album was very good but
> this one is one of the best ten rap albums I've ever heard)
>
> Gaah. I don't understand the appeal of this one; Ghostie may have a
> kinda-clever lyrical style (I like all the food metaphors), but he doesn't
> seem to have much grasp on form or structure.
Well, it *is* rap -- which was always about deconstruction anyway.
>
> 2. Steely Dan -- 2vN
> I'm with the naysayers on this one. Low energy, uninspired writing, trite
> trite trite.
>
> >3. Apples in Stereo -- Discovery of a world inside the moone (catchiest
> > melodies of the year)
>
> I also don't identify with the adulation this one recieves. I'm a huge
> fan of Elephant 6, but my favorite thing about the collective is how they
> infuse 60s pop-psychedelia with their own wacky lo-fi experimentation ethic.
My favorite E-6 band is Neutral Milk Hotel. I thought 'The Aeroplane Over the Sea' was
among the best dozen or so albums of the '90s.
> This album just seemed too smooth and streamlined,
It was smooth and streamlined (for E-6, not... Steely Dan for example :D), but these guys
are such popsters -- much more influenced by the Kinks and Beatles than early Who or Floyd
-- that I think it's appropriate. Such an approach would not work for OTC, but I think
this is easily the Apple's best album.
> not nearly as exciting as
> Olivia Tremor Control's "Singles and Beyond," or Elf Power's "Winter Is
> Coming," also released this year. Have you heard either of those yet?
Yes. I really like 'Singles and Beyond' (it showcases that band's real strengths -- the
shorter song -- as opposed to last year's uneven 'Black Foliage' which I thought was
burdened by thoroughly unneccesary "sound experiments." I didn't consider it for my list
because it's a comp. As for Elf Power, I have to say that this was the first of their
albums that I didn't like much at all. Thought it was OK, but nothing that they haven't
already done a lot better.
>
>
> >4. Primal Scream -- Exterminator
> See above. Nothing against the band or the album, I just don't understand the
> adulation. Sure, it is innovative to mix Prodigy-style techno-rock with lazy
> punk vocals. I'm just not sure it's an noteworthy innovation.
Lazy punk vocals? I don't hear that on most of the tracks. In fact, the vocals a number
of tracks on most of their albums are sung in a soul falsetto like Lenny Kravitz (which
they seem to do for ironic effect, unlike Kravitz, who presumably does it to be taken
seriously).
I don't like it for the 'innovations,' (they did basically the same sort of thing with
'97's 'Vanishing Point,' which I also thought was excellent), I just think they did a
great job with it. 'Kill all the Hippies' was one of the best singles of the year, IMO.
Maybe you liked some of my other selections more. Here's 6-10:
6. Ass Ponys -- Some Stupid With a Flaregun (love these guys)
7. Fontanelle -- st (krautrock inspired post-rock)
8. Delgados -- Great Eastern
9. Billy Bragg and Wilco -- Mermaid Ave vol. II
10. Milk Cult -- Project M-13 (an experimental French group with some early Zappa
leanings).
Matt P
Squirrel Police
>Huh...I haven't even heard of D'atachi. What are his/their virtues?
>FYI, the results of Village Voice's national Pazz & Jop poll came out
>on Valentine's Day -- both Ghostface Killah and Steely Dan placed in
>the top 20. Primal Scream is in the top 40, as well. It's the closest
>thing there is to a "definitive" critics' poll, as you probably know.
Critics are idiots. Of course, so am I, but I'm also a blowhard,
so I'll now regale you with my lofty opinions.
>The top 40 finishers [you fill in the album titles]
>1. OutKast
Lives up to the hype. These guys are the real successors to George
Clinton, IMO.
>2. P J Harvey
Well, the lyrics are pretty good, anyway.
Music critics are dumb. I prefer the reviews in guitar and keyboard magazines,
because they focus more on the music. 'Normal' critics are writers, and as
such, they tend to focus -way- too much on the lyrics as opposed to the
musical content. Way too often a critic will give 'thumbs-up' to banal
musicians, as long as they can turn a good metaphor[2].
>3. Radiohead
When all is said and done, I think we'll be left with a great, refreshing (if
not innovative) album. Not very experimental to these hardened ears, but
definitely a change of pace. I was pretty interested to hear of the "Theusz
Haamtahk" connection. Is it just a similarity, or outright plagiarism? Could
Christian Vander concievably sue Radiohead's delicate hindparts off over this?
>4. Eminem
Do we really need more proof that all the critics have sold out?
This album is the reason I hated rap for ten years. I know it just got
released, what I said is still true.
>7. U2
I find this band consistently boring. "The Joshua Tree" would actually be half
decent if it weren't so horrendously overplayed, to this day. And what's with
ripping off Gabriel's "Biko" on the whole last track? Bastards. They're
probably Scientologists.
>12. Travis
I don't know much about this band. I do know they have a great sense of humor.
Some time ago I read this somehwere: "They've been known to surprise and
entertain their audience by playing an acoustic version of Spears' "Baby Hit
Me One More Time" with the conviction of Pink Floyd's "Wish You Were Here." '
Intrigued, I found the track. Pretty funny, and it puts things in perspective.
It's a fine line that lies between hammy teen "epics" and their older
siblings, hammy college "angst anthems" (ala Radiohead's "Creep").
>13. Steve Earle
I don't know who this guy is, but Ronnie Earl smokes. If there's anyone out
there who's wondering what the whole fuss is about blues, I suggest they pick
up Ronnie Earl's instrumental "Live In Europe." Great musicianship, and as far
as I'm concerned, Ronnie could play John McGlaughlin's pants off any day of
the week (okay, bad mental image).
>14. Ghostface Killah
Loved by many. I like his lyrics, but his Ghostface's rapping doesn't seem to
have much structure, and the productions are very predictable.
Still, a lot of people like it.
>16. Madonna
Interesting phenomenon, a starlet who actual looks better as the years go by.
The tides are probably gonna start turning soon, though.
>18. Badly Drawn Boy
The definition of overrated. His voice has a nice, George Harrison-ish
quality, though.
>21. Marah
I heard one track. Bouncy, kinda goofy roots-rock. The lead vocalist reminded
me of a cross between Bruce Springsteen and Counting Crows' Adam Duritz.
>22. At the Drive-In
Sung in the vocal style of Rage Against The Machine's Zack de la Rocha. Nuff
said.
>23. Queens of the Stone Age
Good, far from great. Nice hodgepodge of hard stuff and light psych. The
vocalist can be really annoying though.
>27. Grandaddy
Their latest is called "The Sophtware Slump." Not overtly progressive, but a
lot of the tracks have a symphonic sound. Sweeping, melancholy, Floydian at
times. Jason Lytle's vocals remind of both Neil Young and Jeff Coyne, but
Lytle never slips out of tunefulness like those two do occasionally. Gift for
melody, great, darkly whimsical (!?) lyrics...
Like I said, hard to describe, just get it.
>30. Coldplay
For the record, "Yellow" is a great pop song. Also for the record, the rest of
"Parachutes" blows in comparison to that song.
>33. Sigur Ros
I like this one too. Very dreamy and atmospheric. Definately chill-out music,
some would call it boring--but not me! I love the guitarist, he plays
exclusively with a bow and sounds way cool.
>34. Elliott Smith
More "critic-rock."
>38. Primal Scream
Not a despicable album, by any means, I just don't think the band is playing
off their strengths. Of course, that could be due to the fact they don't have
any. They're not melodic. They're not sophisticated. They're definitely not
dancable. I guess I just don't "get it."
>40. Kweli, Talib + Hi-Tek
I liked about half the tracks.
>I'm a fan of about 10 of those albums, but I haven't even heard half
>the others (including Primal, Ghostface and Steely). I'd be most
>curious to hear the Shelby Lynne, At the Drive-In, Le Tigre, Sigur Ros
>and (yes) Ghostface Killah discs....
>
>GB
I'd recommend Grandaddy before anything else on this list. Another band I'd
recommend is 12 Rods, and their latest "Separation Anxieties." They're
probably the 619th band to be dubbed "the American Radiohead,"
but in this case that description holds some truth. There's also some relation
to Ben Folds Five. Sophisticated, "brainy" rock. Nerdpop?
One final mention: I'm really enjoying Cave In's "Jupiter." Extremely obscure
band, not much coverage, and I think the members still have day jobs. I'd say
the album veers into full blown prog, but in a quite hard vein. Most of the
album is built upon haunting vocal melodies and washes of distorted chords,
not power chords though. The last track, "New Moon" takes an unexpected
acoustic turn, very beautiful.
[2] Most critics are notorious bull---ers too. I was once reading an album
review in which the author waxed rhapsodic about the lead vocalist, thusly:
"Furthermore, the singer is a force to be reckoned with, combining the
mystique of Robert Plant with the sexual spirituality of Van, err Jim Morrison
and the ambiguous pelagism of Johnny Rotten." I later heard one of their
songs, and the vocalist turned out to be your run-of-the-mill Brian Johnson
rip-off.
L. Perez
them. There are other bands who blend Rock, Pop and Jazz so much better.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Perez is under the impression that if he likes it, it must be Prog"
L. perezia funkadelica clintoniensis badassius bootii
Zero the Hero
>>I used to think it meant "Adult Oriented Rock", which sounds a bit
>>pornographic.
> Yes! YES!
Hey, Nineteen...
--
Jason Ellerbee - jel...@unf.edu
DREAMS WIDE AWAKE radio show - http://www.unf.edu/~jeller/dreams.html
Now broadcasting on the Internet!
Principle of Evil Marksmanship: The bad guys are always lousy shots in
the movies. Three villains with Uzis will go after the hero, spraying
thousands of rounds which miss him, after which he picks them off with a
handgun.
-- Ebert's Little Movie Glossary
Genly Ai
>>XTC - As I've read elsewhere, a pop band for prog fans. "Oranges and
>>Lemons",
>>"English Settlement", "Skylarking", "Nonesuch", and "Apple Venus Vol. 1" are
>>all high-quality rock recordings; if you want to hear decent Beatle-esque
>>lyrics and melodic composition, and text-book pop bass guitar playing, this
>>is
>>the band to investigate. They have some duds ("Mummer", "Wasp Star", The
>>Dukes
>>of Stratosphear stuff) so be warned, but overall consistently fine music.
>
>English Settlement is their finest hour IMO but Mummer is one of their 3 best
>also.
I found _English Settlement_ to be something of a mixed bag, but _Mummer_
does come from their creative plateau (though the bonus tracks, apart from the
cool instrumentals, are out-and-out duds, possibly the worst songs of their
career), alongside _The Big Express_ (containing some *great* bonus tracks! I
love "Red Brick Dream!") and _Skylarking_. I'm also quite fond of _NONSVCH_,
_Black Sea_ and _Apple Venus Vol. 1_. _Oranges & Lemons_ is another mixed bag,
but I think I prefer it on the whole over _ES_. And I must be the only XTC fan
who actually *enjoys* _White Music_ and _Go 2_.
MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")
make GEORYN disappear to reply
"Fetch Daddy's hard, plastic eyes, so that he can see the TV"
--Carl, of Carl & Sons.
N.P.:"Soon The War Is Over"- Z i n g a l e / P e a c e
SHANNON JOHN J
I agree, it goes on too long. I think 3/4 of the CD is top-notch.
>Mummer_
>does come from their creative plateau (though the bonus tracks, apart from
>the
>cool instrumentals, are out-and-out duds, possibly the worst songs of their
>career
Sorry, I can't get into "Mummer" at all. The bonus tracks are horrible. But I
do like "Love on a Farmboy's Wages".
>I'm also quite fond of _NONSVCH_,
My favorite: strong songs all the way through it, and plenty of life.
Peter Wilton
<jblanks-1602...@user-38ld5u2.dialup.mindspring.com>, Jeff
Blanks <jbl...@mindspring.com> writes
>After all, plenty of rock critics consider Yes and ELP
>emotionless (whatever that means in the first place--it's harder to pin
>down than one thinks at first).
Couldn't agree more. When the term "emotion" is bandied about here, I'm
fairly sure it has little to do with what is understood as "emotional"
in the classical tradition, to which much prog makes reference. I've
heard Emo's playing described as emotional, but if you compare his piano
playing, even at his most Chopinesque, to what is considered "emotional"
playing in the classical tradition, he would be considered mechanical,
even in a piece such as, say, "Close to Home".
--
Peter Wilton
The Gregorian Association Web Page:
http://www.beaufort.demon.co.uk
atom
gondola bob wrote:
> atom <#xk...@popd.ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >> My favorite E-6 band is Neutral Milk Hotel. I thought 'The
> >>Aeroplane Over the Sea' was among the best dozen or so albums
> >>of the '90s.
>
> Damn right!
>
> I don't quite like the Apples in Stereo, for basically the same reason
> someone else (Squirrel Police?) mentioned -- the sound is just too
> smooth and perfect. There's no extra nuance to it. It's all surface
> hooks and no depth, and that doesn't last me very far. Just a little
> vocal personality might work wonders, but they don't even give me that.
> I didn't hear the Apples' latest album, but I heard the previous
> release, and they seemed to be aiming for a new flavor by ripping off
> OTC's pop/avant-garde mix. And seeming very calculated about it.
>
> > Which is a strength and limitation. It's a good "consensus" poll, but
> > when you see the actual top 10s submitted by the various critics, you can
> > see how provincial some of the lists are, which ultimately means that the
> > more well-known artists are going to appear near the top of the final
> > list. So you have what happens almost every
> > year in that poll -- the top 10 is pretty much made up of artists of
> > either long-standing critical buzz (so it was heard by nearly all the
> > critics) or was the flavor-of-the-year in a particular genre (so it was
> > also heard by nearly all the critics).
>
> So, you're saying the list is limited to old favorites and new
> sensations. Uhhh...so what's missing? Not enough old, lousy bands?
:) That didn't come out exactly right -- what I meant was that the new sensations
don't penetrate deep enough into their respective genres. I think a lot of the
people who were responsible making Radiohead's the #3 album would have loved the
Sigur Ros album, but I'll bet that a number of them didn't hear it.
> guess you're saying there should be more young, indie-cult bands at the
> top, but why? If a band only has a cult following, then a large cross-section of
> music fans won't be into the group.
Not "won't" be into it, but "aren't" into it (by definition) -- which has nothing at
all to do with how good or even how accessible the music is. When Radiohead's 'The
Bends' album came out, they were more of a cult band. With OKC, they became the
genre flavor of the year. With Kid A, they're some combination of that and "old
favorite." But their most accessible (and best, IMO), was 'The Bends,' which was
their lowest-charting album in P&J.
DTohir
>don't like Rid of Me as well as some other folks, because there, I
>think the music falls short.
Really? I consider "Rid of Me" her strongest album from a purely musical
standpoint.
.You're really goofing, if you presume
>people only like PJ Harvey for her "good metaphors."
Agreed.
DTohir
>who actually *enjoys* _White Music_ and _Go 2_.
"White Music" is excellent, "Go 2" on the other hand.....
John DiFool
> >well, considering it means Album Oriented Rock (the other kind of Rock
> >presumably being Singles Oriented) by definition everything that's not
> >specifically geared toward top 40 Pop radio is AOR.
>
> Yes.
>
> >English Settlement is their finest hour IMO but Mummer is one of their 3 best
> >also.
> >
>
> Sorry, I hate "Mummer", except "Love on a Farmboy's Wages".
>
Interesting thing about Black Sea is that most of the album consists of
humorous ironic commentaries about various aspects of modern life
("Generals & Majors"), but the final cut ("Adventures in Nihilon") really
throws it all back into the listener's face with a very straightforward if not
obsessive attack on the pursuit of meaninglessness (as exhibited in the
previous bouncier cuts on the album). I have always liked that kind of contrast
(when well-executed - oftentimes its not).
>
> >The term AOR was coined in the 70s but that doesn't mean a 00s(double ott?)
> >band cant be AOR.
> >
>
> Yes, except: do bands still try to make whole recordings?
>
No, they make prefab product, as stale and bland as pasteurized and
processed cheese food.
John DiFool
Squirrel Police
>squirre...@hotmail.com (Squirrel Police) wrote:
>
>> >2. P J Harvey
>> Well, the lyrics are pretty good, anyway.
>> Music critics are dumb. I prefer the reviews in guitar and keyboard
>> magazines,
>> because they focus more on the music. 'Normal' critics are writers, and as
>> such, they tend to focus -way- too much on the lyrics as opposed to the
>> musical content. Way too often a critic will give 'thumbs-up' to banal
>> musicians, as long as they can turn a good metaphor[2].
>
>don't like Rid of Me as well as some other folks, because there, I
>people only like PJ Harvey for her "good metaphors."
I think my observation is true, at least when it comes to mainstream music
critics.
>> >4. Eminem
>> Do we really need more proof that all the critics have sold out?
>> This album is the reason I hated rap for ten years. I know it just got
>> released, what I said is still true.
>
>Better than about 90% of the other rap albums I've heard.
Maybe you should listen to more albums.
>> >34. Elliott Smith
>> More "critic-rock."
>
>If you're saying Smith has no musical appeal and is purely a "lyrics
>thing," you're *way* off.
YMMV. I actually like some of the musical backing, I just think Smith is a
pretty lousy melodist. And that's a severe drawback in pop music.
>> >I'm a fan of about 10 of those albums, but I haven't even heard half
>> >the others (including Primal, Ghostface and Steely). I'd be most
>> >curious to hear the Shelby Lynne, At the Drive-In, Le Tigre, Sigur Ros
>> >and (yes) Ghostface Killah discs....
>>
>> I'd recommend Grandaddy before anything else on this list.
>
>I have that. That's one of the "10." I liked the first Grandaddy album
>a lot more, though.
>GB
Bit too Weezer-ish, IMO.
Squirrel Police
>atom come on down:
>
>>Squirrel Police wrote:
>>
>>> In article <3A8F3905...@popd.ix.netcom.com>,
> #ltri...@popd.ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>> >Here's my top 5
>>> >
>>> >1. Ghostface Killah -- Supreme Clientele (Outkast's album was very good
> but
>>> this one is one of the best ten rap albums I've ever heard)
>>>
>>> Gaah. I don't understand the appeal of this one; Ghostie may have a
>>> kinda-clever lyrical style (I like all the food metaphors), but he doesn't
>>> seem to have much grasp on form or structure.
>>
>>Well, it *is* rap -- which was always about deconstruction anyway.
>
>and laugh. This is a good reason why.
>
>*plonk*
White? Who's white?
Squirrel Police
<G....@deltanet.com> wrote:
>> >> >4. Eminem
>> >
>> >Better than about 90% of the other rap albums I've heard.
>>
>> Maybe you should listen to more albums.
>
How so? Just a suggestion.
>> >> >34. Elliott Smith
>> >> More "critic-rock."
>> >
>> YMMV. I actually like some of the musical backing, I just think Smith is a
>> pretty lousy melodist.
>
>Well, I'd say we've reached maximum disagreement with that last
>comment. Me, I'm fairly amazed at how memorable yet totally distinctive
>Smith's melodies are.
Okay.
Squirrel Police
> No, they make prefab product, as stale and bland as pasteurized and
>processed cheese food.
>
> John DiFool
Prefab Sprout, anyone? And I'll have you know I _like_ processed cheese.
"And in the word CHAOS let the book be sealed, yea, let the Book be sealed."
L. Perez
>who actually *enjoys* _White Music_ and _Go 2_.
I like 'em ok but Drums and Wires is better than both put together IMO
Squirrel Police
>>White? Who's white?
>
>If it helps, you write like a white guy.
>
>*plonk*
How insightful. And you, kind sir, write like an Australian aboriginal on
Lysol.
Ruizdelviz
actually enjoy some "classic" AOR bands, and if they like any of the bands I
think are top-notch. Admittedly, prog bands like Tull, Yes, Kansas, ELP, and
Floyd all fall under the AOR rubric, but what about...<<<
Ambrosia! The first album's very good. I'd love to hear one of the modern bands
of today (say, the Beard) do a version of Mama Frog.
Admittedly, Ambrosia became what we all detest about "pop" in the 70s (and so
did a few others - Yes/Kansas/Rush immediately come to mind) but that first
album's very good, despite it being prog-lite. I've heard worse though
(Starcastle anyone?).
peace
cool
with deliberation wrote:
>
>Steely Dan making a record to "cash in?" Cash in on what? This is a band that stopped
>performing live two years into their existence, and whose singles charted about as high
>as Yes' for most of their career, and who hadn't made an album in 20 years. Maybe those
>decidedly minor hits and album cuts from the '70s keep getting played on radio stations
>of all formats because there is a universal appeal to them.
>Yep -- limelight, spotlight and hit singles -- that's the Steely Dan legacy, all
>right.
>
>Matt P
>
ago.
DK-Jensen,
And there is in fact more eath than sea
"I'd give up golf if I didn't have so many sweaters"
atom
Melvinhoe wrote:
> gondola bob come on down:
>
> >The top 40 finishers [you fill in the album titles]
> >4. Eminem
> >10. Sleater-Kinney
>
> These two are currently at the top of my "most annoying critical darlings"
> list. I don't mind the existence of crappy bands that sell a lot of albums so
> much, because, you know, that's life. But people talking about really shitty
> bands as though they were RESPECTABLE, that bugs me. I guess that's one of
> the things I like about progressive rock- nobody will ever again consider it
> "respectable".
>
> *plonk*
>
I'm not into Eminem, but I can at least see the appeal that his music has for the
fans and critics who like it.
Sleater Kinney though... like so many other bands who play the same kind of music,
they had some early material that I can understand the appeal of for somebody into
that kind of thing, but they haven't done much since then. If they ever get
popular, I'm sure a number of critics will jump off the bandwagon.
Matt P
atom
Melvinhoe wrote:
> atom come on down:
>
> >Squirrel Police wrote:
> >
> >> In article <3A8F3905...@popd.ix.netcom.com>, #ltri...@popd.ix.netcom.com wrote:
> >> >Here's my top 5
> >> >
> >> >1. Ghostface Killah -- Supreme Clientele (Outkast's album was very good but
> >> this one is one of the best ten rap albums I've ever heard)
> >>
> >> Gaah. I don't understand the appeal of this one; Ghostie may have a
> >> kinda-clever lyrical style (I like all the food metaphors), but he doesn't
> >> seem to have much grasp on form or structure.
> >
> >Well, it *is* rap -- which was always about deconstruction anyway.
>
> You know, whenever white guys try to review rap albums, I just laugh and laugh
> and laugh. This is a good reason why.
>
> *plonk*
I think some amount of explanation for such a racist remark is due here.
Matt P
atom
gondola bob wrote:
> Matt:
> > :) That didn't come out exactly right -- what I meant was that the new
> > sensations
> > don't penetrate deep enough into their respective genres. I think a lot of
> > the people who were responsible making Radiohead's the #3 album would have loved
> > the Sigur Ros album, but I'll bet that a number of them didn't hear it.
>
> All right. But I think you have to accept that some records won't be
> heard by enough people, or even enough critics...that's a fact of life.
Right -- and thus my original point, which is that a poll that is as comprehensive as
P&J will always be influenced (too greatly, IMO) by the big albums that everybody has
heard. Even if a sizeable minority of critics had heard and loved a lesser-known
album, it's absence from the list of too many others will doom its showing on the
overall list.
Whereas a poll smaller in scope with more like-minded contributors (Spin, AP, Wire,
etc.) may be a lot more interesting, if one is interested in the kind of music that
they tend to focus on.
> BTW, since this thread has a peripheral XTC discussion going, I should
> mention that Wasp Star finished at a measly #222 in this year's poll.
> Considering XTC's "old favorite" status and AV1's #33 ranking last
> year, I'd say this represents a pretty major rejection! Ouch.
>
> GB (who definitely ranks Skylarking at the top of XTC's catalog)
I think this falls under the "Old bands who make a decent comeback get only one shot at
critical attention" rule. XTC making a good new album after 8 years off is news.
Making another good one a year later, isn't.
Matt P
atom
gondola bob wrote:
> rusho...@yahoo.com (Melvinhoe) wrote:
>
> > >The top 40 finishers [you fill in the album titles]
> > >4. Eminem
> > >10. Sleater-Kinney
> >
> > These two are currently at the top of my "most annoying critical darlings"
> > list. I don't mind the existence of crappy bands that sell a lot of albums so
> > much, because, you know, that's life. But people talking about really shitty
> > bands as though they were RESPECTABLE, that bugs me.
>
> Well, it's all a matter of opinion, isn't it now? Personally, I'd rank
> *Radiohead* as my "most annoying critical darling," but that's the
> breaks. I'm also flabbergasted at how well-reviewed the new Dandy
> Warhols album is. And I didn't hear the new Primal Scream album, but I
> suspect if I *did*, I would be really ticked off by that one's acclaim
> as well. However, I wouldn't state my objections in as absolute
> language as you use above.
I was prepared to be annoyed by the Dandy Warhols' album, but ended up actually
liking about half the tracks. If you're going to rip off other people's music in
the name of irony, it may as well sound as good as about 6 or 7 of those tunes.
Matt P
Iwan
>
> Melvinhoe wrote:
> > You know, whenever white guys try to review rap albums, I just laugh and laugh
> > and laugh. This is a good reason why.
> >
> > *plonk*
>
> I think some amount of explanation for such a racist remark is due here.
>
White is not a race.
SHANNON JOHN J
Actually, it was an element of the initial thread I posted; your discussion is
peripheral.
>> GB (who definitely ranks Skylarking at the top of XTC's catalog)
Good, but Nonesuch is better.
>I think this falls under the "Old bands who make a decent comeback get only
>one shot at
>critical attention" rule. XTC making a good new album after 8 years off is
>news.
>Making another good one a year later, isn't.
Or perhaps it indicates that "AVVol1" was a very decent CD, and "WStar" was
garbage.
SHANNON JOHN J
>
Neither is black, but had that word been used, racist would have been
universally recognized.
SHANNON JOHN J
>HTH.
The devil owns the world.
DTohir
>
>Good, but Nonesuch is better.
>
I find _Nonesuch_ rather boring, myself. One of their weaker albums for me.
>>I think this falls under the "Old bands who make a decent comeback get only
>>one shot at
>>critical attention" rule. XTC making a good new album after 8 years off is
>>news.
>>Making another good one a year later, isn't.
>
>Or perhaps it indicates that "AVVol1" was a very decent CD, and "WStar" was
>garbage.
>
Nah, _Wasp Star_ is a very good album as well, in fact I like it slightly
better than _AV1_.
Mike Smith
news:3a8e2...@csd-32630.noc.unf.edu...
> SHANNON JOHN J <shanno...@cs.com> spluttered:
> >>I used to think it meant "Adult Oriented Rock", which sounds a bit
> >>pornographic.
>
> > Yes! YES!
>
> Hey, Nineteen...
...how about a kiss for your Cousin Dupree? ;-P
--
Mike Smith
One man's theology is another man's belly laugh. --R. A. Heinlein
L. Perez
>devil.
>>HTH.
>
>The devil owns the world.
He certainly orchestrates all events on Earth currently but YHWH owns it and
will soon remove the devil from it!.
L. Perez
>
>Good, but Nonesuch is better.
>
both good but English Settlement is the best.
Tez Burke
And therefore he owns the rights to the SI back catalogue.
Tez.
--
"Edna was secretly thrilled when Norman sucked her toaster"
Steven Sullivan
:>>I am a member of the Nation of Islam, and believe the white man is the
yeah, any millennium now.
--
-S.
FEAR MY INFINITE CORN-DOG! - Melvinhoe
C. Norman
>shanno...@cs.com (SHANNON JOHN J) wrote:
>
>> >> GB (who definitely ranks Skylarking at the top of XTC's catalog)
>>
>> Good, but Nonesuch is better.
>
>the above is an extremely rare opinion.
XTC fans don't like Nonsuch? That's like Beatles fans not liking
Abbey Road.
CN
atom
SHANNON JOHN J wrote:
> > BTW, since this thread has a peripheral XTC discussion going, I should
>
> Actually, it was an element of the initial thread I posted; your discussion is
> peripheral.
>
> >> GB (who definitely ranks Skylarking at the top of XTC's catalog)
>
> Good, but Nonesuch is better.
I don't think so. Nonesuch is afflicted by the same problem of every XTC album
since Oranges and Lemons -- too long. Get rid of the four or five duds on Oranges
and Lemons and Nonesuch and *then* you have some really solid albums. 'Finest
Monkeys' is just so annoyingly cloying.
Matt P
SHANNON JOHN J
>may be a bit too, dare I say, Steely Dan-esque. ;)
YES! YES!! YES!!!
SHANNON JOHN J
>Abbey Road.
Exactly.
SHANNON JOHN J
>will soon remove the devil from it!.
I'll pit Odin against YHWH any day, without the eight-legged horse and the two
wolves! And an eyepatch!
Conn Copas
>
>>You'd get a kick out of the negative reviews that comprised the booklet to their
>>box set. I'll post a few when I dig it out. Only a band assured of their
>>brilliance (or who entirely didn't give a damn) would fill their box-set booklet
>>with only negative review clippings.
>
>Or whose leaders were egotists on the level of Robert Fripp.
"I think I could wipe the floor with most guitarists": Ritchie Blackmore, in the
liner notes of Deep Purple's _Who do we Think we are?_.
Steven Sullivan
: <c.no...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
:> >> Good, but Nonesuch is better.
:> >
:> >Judging from the XTC mailing list which I used to subscribe to, I'd say
:> >the above is an extremely rare opinion.
:>
:> XTC fans don't like Nonsuch? That's like Beatles fans not liking
:> Abbey Road.
: I didn't say they "don't like it," but it's one of the most
: controversial, criticized albums in the XTC catalog. I like the album a
: lot myself, but I certainly wouldn't compare it to Abbey Road in terms
: of unassailability.
Sincewhen is Abbey Road unassailable? It's got OCtopus' Garden on it,
which is shite.
TOIB
> <sull...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu> wrote:
>> Sincewhen is Abbey Road unassailable?
> Oops...almost forgot what newsgroup I was posting to. This is the one
> where *Banco* is unassailable. ;)
Touché :)
--
Sean McFee
Ground and Sky: http://www.progreviews.com
Buy and Sell Used Prog: www.nexus.carleton.ca/~sean/prog/shop
My Radio Show: www.nexus.carleton.ca/~sean/prog/radio
L. Perez
>
>: He certainly orchestrates all events on Earth currently but YHWH owns it
>and
>: will soon remove the devil from it!.
>
>yeah, any millennium now.
>
Indeed, the term 'soon' has a different meaning to YHWH than to short lived
Humans.
Peter Wilton
<sull...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu> writes
>Sincewhen is Abbey Road unassailable? It's got OCtopus' Garden on it,
>which is shite.
You keep on making assertions like this, but you have no scientific
proof whatsoever. ;-)
--
Peter Wilton
The Gregorian Association Web Page:
http://www.beaufort.demon.co.uk
Iwan
>
> I am a member of the Nation of Islam, and believe the white man is the devil.
> HTH.
>
Since you get serious when the subject is scientology, it's my turn to
stretch this one further.
I can understand if Americans laughing their head off when Khomeini
called USA is a great satan, but when some people associate easily Islam
with violence, hates, intolerance and all that, I think it's also the
lack of balanced information in their side. It's true that Farrakhan's
speaking contains hate, Saddam Hussein is a demagogue, Algerian
fundametalists (and army) killed children, women in some Arab countries
live in a discriminated society, most of terrorists in the movies wear
beard, churches in Indonesia were burned down, [add more here], but most
of moslems are peaceful and tolerant. It's just that they aren't
newsmakers. Doh!
My family is moslem and my father never push his children to lure other
people to convert to Islam, let alone teaches me how to build a bomb.
As much as Osama bin Laden bombed World Trade Centre, I think the
greater threat to America comes from faceless and nameless opium cartels
from Colombia who don't see America as their enemy but their commerce
partner instead.
Amicalement,
iwan
C. Norman
><c.no...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
>
>> >> Good, but Nonesuch is better.
>> >
>> >Judging from the XTC mailing list which I used to subscribe to, I'd say
>> >the above is an extremely rare opinion.
>>
>> XTC fans don't like Nonsuch? That's like Beatles fans not liking
>> Abbey Road.
>
>controversial, criticized albums in the XTC catalog. I like the album a
>lot myself, but I certainly wouldn't compare it to Abbey Road in terms
>of unassailability.
>
>Not much room to breathe and be human. Some folks don't like that. It
>may be a bit too, dare I say, Steely Dan-esque. ;)
It *is* slick, assuming you're talking about the production. As
for conservative, I don't quite see how that description applies -
surely not to the arrangements, or to most of the writing?
CN
C. Norman
<3A945AAA...@popd.ix.netcom.com>...
Aw, come on! "Smartest Monkeys" is their big "we're closet
prog rock fans" song. (And since Colin Moulding's output is so
maddeningly uneven, one ought to be grateful that this one
has a bit of a tune.) "War Dance" is the one real stinker on
_Nonsuch_.
CN
MSARYBEEP
two wolves! And an eyepatch!
>
two-fisted hero, and he is proggier than both of them because French TV wrote a
song about his adventures.
>
>From: rusho...@yahoo.com (Melvinhoe)
Congratulations for being the ONLY person on Earth who knows this[besides
myself].---Mike FTV Sary
Steven Sullivan
:>:>The devil owns the world.
Which presumes 'he's' told you this. The deeper assumption is that 'he'
exists, which is of course unproven.
Btw, we are talking about Santa Claus, right?
Steven Sullivan
: In article <ouHk6.704$AS6....@grover.nit.gwu.edu>, Steven Sullivan
:>Sincewhen is Abbey Road unassailable? It's got OCtopus' Garden on it,
:>which is shite.
: You keep on making assertions like this, but you have no scientific
: proof whatsoever. ;-)
I don't deny that Octopus' Garden *exists*. Though I wish I could.
: --
: Peter Wilton
: The Gregorian Association Web Page:
: http://www.beaufort.demon.co.uk
--
Steven Sullivan
: In article <20010221021237...@ng-fp1.aol.com> lpere...@aol.comnospammy wrote...
:> Indeed, the term 'soon' has a different meaning to YHWH than to short lived
:> Humans.
: More like 'fucking never'.
YHWH works in mysterious ways.
Robert Carlberg
Indeed. Peacefulness and tolerance are even written into your scriptures,
unlike the Christian holy book which calls for "an eye for an eye" and the holy
massacre of infidels and all sorts of distasteful stuff.
It's a shame a few extremists give the whole religion a bad name, because on
the whole (as an outsider) it is a much better religion than Christianity.
Steven Sullivan
:> but most of moslems are peaceful and tolerant.
: Indeed. Peacefulness and tolerance are even written into your scriptures,
: unlike the Christian holy book which calls for "an eye for an eye"
Actually, that's part of the Old Testament, and thus not specifically
Christian.
--
-S.
I am a'Cubic Thinker' and far wiser than any god, any scientist and any
educator who preaches the evil singularity of a single 1st corner. -- Gene
Ray, www.timecube.com
asw...@hotmail.com
> Indeed. Peacefulness and tolerance are even written into your scriptures,
> unlike the Christian holy book which calls for "an eye for an eye" and the
> holy
> massacre of infidels and all sorts of distasteful stuff.
>
> It's a shame a few extremists give the whole religion a bad name, because on
> the whole (as an outsider) it is a much better religion than Christianity.
Nice to see such moderate and fair-minded replies and I concur
wholeheartedly. I like the fact that Islam also caters towards
ideologies I admire (like environmentalism and a more ascetic
lifestyle, which seem pretty damned relevant these days). I also
like their more tolerant attitudes towards other religions and
the focus on prayer and reasoning and individual discipline of
faith over a "go to church on Sunday and forget about it the
rest of the week" approach. Can't help but admire that parable
and meaning are considered more important than Jesus / Mary /
Pope type cult of personality too. Too bad Hollywood and the
media are so warped when it comes to things.
Aswyth
SHANNON JOHN J
>"unassailable" needs to have his head examined.
I love The Beatles, and I love "Abbey Road", but I couldn't agree with you
more: I usually skip that one. Funny how McCartney has great songs on "Let It
Be" and crap on "Abbey Road".
SHANNON JOHN J
My pleasure.
SHANNON JOHN J
>two-fisted hero, and he is proggier than both of them because French TV wrote
>a song about his adventures.
Yeah!
SHANNON JOHN J
I'm not really going to defend "O'sG", but I will remark that 1) the guitar
leads are very fluent and nice in that song and 2) it definitely sets you up
for the impact of "I Want You "She's So Heavy").
SHANNON JOHN J
>_Nonsuch_.
I love this song; the clarinet kills me. It IS a long recording, granted, but
for some reason I can always listen to it straight through. "Dear Madame
Barnum", "The Disappointed", "Holly Up on Poppy", "That Wave", "War Dance" -
all pretty good. OK, maybe "Bungalow" sucks, and "Then She Appeared", but
overall I can deal with this CD.
I listened to "AVVol1" last night, and it reminds me of "Nonsuch" quite a bit".
Robert Carlberg
>media are so warped when it comes to things.
Swarthy Arabs have been the bad guys in almost every Hollywood movie since the
oil embargo, or whenever it became politically incorrect to have black bad
guys. During the Gulf War we heard the typical "us vs. them" inflammatory
racisms, and I fear with Shrub trying to finish Daddy's war we'll hear it all
again.
Check out Casey Kasem's organization for a more positive view.
http://www.arabmedia.com/achievers.html
SHANNON JOHN J
>like their more tolerant attitudes towards other religions
This is a lie; Moslems hate Jews and Judaism. I am around Moslems every day,
and I hear comments like "The Jews are cursed by God", and "The Jews are
fucking hypocrites", and "The Jews deserve to be eliminated; Hitler didn't go
far enough", and "I hate Alan Greenspan; look at his face". I'm not going to
argue that Christianity is more tolerant or less hateful, but Islam deals out
its far share of hatred.
Get a copy of the Koran and read "The Cow". How tolerant!
The Sufis are excellent though; Rumi's poetry is beautiful, and he understands
the core insights which should form the practical application of Islam but
don't.
It is also a lie to state that somehow Islam has stayed closer to its essence
then Christianity: both have brutal histories, both have clergy full of
power-hungry, shit-brained liars and deceivers, both have contributed to the
ruination of the planet, and both at there core are true religions (reverence
for existence and the mystery of reality) but both are totally removed from the
original message. Monotheistic assholes in the West; monotheistic assholes in
the Middle-East: only difference.
The only truly peaceful 'religion' is Buddhism: there has never been a
Buddhist war. The only truly tolerant religion is Vedanta (what we call
Hinduism), which believes that the paths to God are infinite, so that any
honest approach to holiness is valid.
The Pope is clueless, but so is the Ayatollah: no difference.
>like environmentalism and a more ascetic
>lifestyle, which seem pretty damned relevant these days
You should study this religion better; it is not especially environmental or
ascetic....
Adam Levin
> This is a lie; Moslems hate Jews and Judaism.
Nothing like generalizing. One of my best friends from my college years
was a muslim as is one of my current co-workers. We get along just fine,
thank you.
> I am around Moslems every day, and I hear comments like...
So you are going to base your view of millions of people on a few
idiots? That's like building a profile of the beliefs of caucasions based
on attending a KKK meeting.
-Adam
---
"...if one strives at hearing for the sake of constant virtue,
out of seeking liberation from cyclic existence, gradually one
becomes a Hearer."
- Chandrakirti
T h e D a r k A e t h e r P r o j e c t
http://www.darkaether.net/
Gamantyo Hendrantoro
>> I also
>>like their more tolerant attitudes towards other religions
>
>This is a lie; Moslems hate Jews and Judaism. I am around Moslems
>every day, and I hear comments like "The Jews are cursed by God",
>and "The Jews are fucking hypocrites", and "The Jews deserve to be
>eliminated; Hitler didn't go far enough", and "I hate Alan
>Greenspan; look at his face".
I have a Moslem friend, a very good friend in fact, who once said
"Marillion sucks!". But that doesn't mean all Moslems hate Marillion.
It's all too dangerous to make a generalization on things you're not
familiar with.
Steven Sullivan
:> I also
: The only truly peaceful 'religion' is Buddhism: there has never been a
: Buddhist war.
Not true.
: The only truly tolerant religion is Vedanta (what we call
: Hinduism), which believes that the paths to God are infinite, so that any
: honest approach to holiness is valid.
Hindus and Buddhists have waged fierce war in the course of Indian
history.
Rudy A Carrera
understands
> the core insights which should form the practical application of Islam but
> don't.
An interesting side note on this. Rumi was quoted as not considering
himself Islamic or Jewish, Christian or Zoroastrian, but a seeker of truth
and lover of God. His poetry is simply amazing, and should be looked on
with a sort of reverence from all the faiths. He was indeed a good man.
Rudy
Genly Ai
>> And I must be the only XTC fan
>>who actually *enjoys* _White Music_ and _Go 2_.
>
> "White Music" is excellent, "Go 2" on the other hand.....
I actually *prefer* _Go 2_ to _White Music_. But I do enjoy both.
MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")
make GEORYN disappear to reply
"Parece cosa de maligno. Los pianos no estallan por casualidad." --Gabriel
Garcia Marquez
N.P.:ntohing