Thoughts on ECM - The Label and Artists (long)
ScippyLisp
other semi-related genres, including jazz. I won't have much time tomorrow, so
here it goes: :-)
In my continued jazz explorations, I've discovered I've bought quite a bit
this year from the ECM jazz label, mostly all this year.
It's an interesting label, for while it contains some traditional jazz, but
much of it (actually most of it) is far from traditional. The label stretches
very well onto the borders of free jazz, new age, the ECM "sound" (usually
defined by a sense of sparseness), and yes.......wait for it......lots of
progressive music crossovers.
It is an "artist" driven label, as opposed to group driven (like much jazz
is), however many of the band configurations swap musicians and become very
familiar with each other.
One interesting about this label is that it includes European as well as
American artists, many that work together creating a very unique blend of
music.
Some key artists and albums (forgive me if I don't elaborate too much on
specifics as I have only been listening to this music for a short time):
John Abercrombie, guitarist
Abercrombie is one of the more prolific artists on the label, recording in
several different band configurations since the mid 70s.
Highlights include:
Timeless ('74) - noted for having keyboardist Jan Hammer
Gateway ('75) - His Trio band with Dave Holland(bass) and Jack
DeJohnette(drums) (both common ECM cronies). The first Gateway is really nice,
but there are actually 4 "Gateway" recordings through the years.
While We're Young ('93) - A reoccuring 90's trio with Dan Wall (organ) and Adam
Naussbaum (drums). Creating a pretty full sound, quite frankly. I think this is
their best one.
Jan Garbarek, tenor sax, alto sax, flute
Garbarek has some great stuff and really recorded a lot for the ECM label. The
drawback…on some albums, I think he was the inspiration for Kenny G. (these
times I affectionately nickname him "Janny G")
Highlights include:
SART ('71) - One of the early ECM albums. This teams Garbarek up with guitarist
guru Terje Rypdal. The result is very interesting adventure into European
avant-garde jazz. A really great experiment that touches on some jazz-rock
elements as well.
Places ('77) - Teamed up with Bill Connors (guitar), John Taylor (keys), and
Jack DeJohnette (drums). I'm really fascinated by the first track, Reflections.
At 15min., I think it represents some of the finer directions that Garbarek's
music can take. There is nice droning interplay between the organ and sax.
DeJohnette tends to pretty freely throught the tune.
Madar ('94) - A Trio with Garbarek, Anouar Brahem (oud), and Ustad Shaukat
Hussein (tabla) that really works! I think this is a testament to the label's
drive to experiment with different combinations of musicians in different
settings. The ultimate result is some interesting world music flavor, with a
consistant sax undertone.
Dave Holland, bass
Perhaps the premier bass player on the label. His career has really flourished
on ECM in the 90's. His roots are most certainly with swing, and I think he's
done a very good job picking up where Charles Mingus left off.
Highlights include:
Conference of the Birds ('73) - An esteemed date with such notable artists as
Anthony Braxton (reeds), Sam Rivers (reeds), and Barry Altschul (drums). The
result is a very competent avant-garde blend of jazz which highlights the
interplay between horns very well. I like it, but don't love it (as of yet).
However, it is considered one of the highlights of the label by many.
Extensions ('90) - I love this quartet of Holland, Steve Coleman (sax), Kevin
Eubanks (yep..him, on guitar), and Marvin "Smitty" Smith (drums). The result is
a blistering avant-jazz date that compositionally leaves room for all the
players to shine. It helped to turn me on to Steve Coleman as an artist.
What Goes Around ('02) - Brand new release from Dave Holland's new
configuration, "The Dave Holland Big Band". The majority of the pieces on this
album are actually reworked and extended into big band format from earlier
albums Holland did for the label. The result is a truly professional and
provocative big band masterpiece that I think highlights Holland and the ECM
label as a whole for being able to still kick out some great works.
Terje Rypdal, guitarist
What a fascinating player Rypdal is. Much less "traditional" than Abercrombie.
Rypdal through the years has gone from a freer jazz setting, to guitarscapes,
to composing symphonic works.
Highlights include:
Whenever I Seem To Be Far Away ('74) - Great album which 2nd side has perhaps
the most "progressive" piece that I've heard to date. Certainly a crossover for
fans of prog. Besides, it has mellotron…how can you resist ;)
Odyssey ('75) - I just received this album, but I haven't heard it yet. I
thought it worthy of special mention because it is considered by many to be his
pinnacle work. I'm sure it will be great. Oh, as of right now there is no CD
issue that contains the entire original double album. Hopefully there will be
soon.
Descendre ('80) - A Rypdal trio with Palle Mikkelborg (trumpet,keys) and John
Christensen (Bass,drums). I found this title to rise above many of the others I
have heard so far. The guitar work tends to be spacey, yet provocative and the
addition of the trumpet really adds some nice flavor.
Steve Tibbetts, guitarist/percussionist
Tibbetts hasn't recorded the same number of albums that the above artists have,
but a few of his works are extremely highly regarded. He focus much more on
layers and percussion than the average guitarist or jazz artist. The results
are some pretty interesting jazz/world fusions.
Highlights include:
Yr ('80) - Perhaps this is the finest example from this artist. Great world
fusion here.
Ralph Towner, guitarist
Also a guitarist for Oregon (who did a few ECM albums in the 80s), Towner is
noted for his clean, crisp sound and mastery of the acoustic guitar.
Highlights include:
Solstice ('75) - A really cool quartet date with Jan Garbarek (sax), Eberhard
Weber (bass,cello), and Jon Christensen (drums). This album is another one of
the most notable in the ECM catalog. Beautiful, yet provocative. Simple, yet
complex. One that demands repeated listens.
Old Friends and New Friends ('79) - A quintet date that really defined how
versatile Towner could be as he plays not only the guitar, but french horn and
piano. I can't comment too much on this one yet, but it demands my return
shortly.
Eberhard Weber, Bass/Cello
I've recently gotten into this guy's work. He really is an interesting and
introspective player. I can't comment on much as of yet, but I would certainly
recommend:
The Colours of Chloe ('74) - This album is another that perhaps is in the top
highly regarded albums on the label. Some really great stuff on here that I
would think more closely resembles progressive symphonic music than jazz in
most spots. A classic.
Other artists of note….. perhaps others could expand on these, or add a few
more.
Jack DeJohnette, Drums
As of yet, I've only heard one album of his as a leader (Untitled), but have a
few more in waiting. He's been on many albums as a sideman for other ECM
leaders.
Stephan Micus, (multi instrumentalist)
Known for his unconventionality, I was pretty impressed by the one album I have
of his so far, Implosions. He performs on several different instruments on the
album and overdubs them as layered tracks. The results are mostly successful.
In this case, a very worldly feel.
Collin Walcott, Sitar/Tabla
Another member of Oregon, Collin Walcott recorded a few dates for ECM in the
70s as a leader, and also as a member of the band "Codona" with Don Cherry. The
end result of much of his music is an extension of Oregon, with a world fusion
texture throughout (which I suppose you'll get when you play the sitar and
tabla drums). My favorites are Grazing Dreams and Codona I.
At this point, I feel like I've explored the label pretty well in breadth,
though I need to return to many of the now 100 or so that I own to explore the
depth of each recording more. I must say that I feel like I've gotten my
money's worth on most of these recordings. A very interesting label for sure,
and I think a natural progression for those looking for a crossover from
progressive music into jazz.
Cozy
no.nine
for a long time: Julian Priester's 'Love Love' from 1973. It's an excellent
fusion album, featuring some of the same musicians as Herbie Hancock's
'Sextant', which Priester also played on. But I fear that, along with the
missing fourth side of Terje Rypdal's 'Odyssey', this will never be
reissued.
sigh
no.nine
"ScippyLisp" <scipp...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021002212634...@mb-dh.aol.com...
> drawback.on some albums, I think he was the inspiration for Kenny G.
> fans of prog. Besides, it has mellotron.how can you resist ;)
> Other artists of note... perhaps others could expand on these, or add a
cap...@hotmail.com
A very long post about ECM artists, to which I would like to add :
> It is an "artist" driven label, as opposed to group driven (like much jazz
>is), however many of the band configurations swap musicians and become very
>familiar with each other.
This is particularly true of the more recent (say, 90's) material. I
think much of this is probably down to Manfred Eicher, who runs the
label. A class gentleman if ever there was one.
> Some key artists and albums (forgive me if I don't elaborate too much on
>specifics as I have only been listening to this music for a short time):
Totally understood - it's a lot of (great!) stuff to digest. A few
additons I'd like to make to your list, though :
>John Abercrombie, guitarist
>Timeless ('74) - noted for having keyboardist Jan Hammer
>Gateway ('75) - His Trio band with Dave Holland(bass) and Jack
>DeJohnette(drums) (both common ECM cronies). The first Gateway is really nice,
>but there are actually 4 "Gateway" recordings through the years.
>While We're Young ('93) - A reoccuring 90's trio with Dan Wall (organ) and Adam
>Naussbaum (drums). Creating a pretty full sound, quite frankly. I think this is
>their best one.
Also don't miss Characters, a solo work from '77, and Animato from
'89, with THE ECM drummer, Jon Christensen.
>Jan Garbarek, tenor sax, alto sax, flute
>Garbarek has some great stuff and really recorded a lot for the ECM label. The
>drawback…on some albums, I think he was the inspiration for Kenny G. (these
>times I affectionately nickname him "Janny G")
Oh but you really should resist that temptation. It's just such a
terrible thing to say. (And if it's true, ol' Kenny's still got a
lotta "absorption" to do...)
In addition to the titles you mentioned, I would highly recommend I
Took Up The Runes from '90 (with Manu Katche on drums), and the recent
double-disc Rites, which at times veers close to sort of "chill-out"
pop territory - but with a LOT more depth.
>Dave Holland, bass
>Perhaps the premier bass player on the label.
Dave is the bomb, make no mistake. But that's a very hard title to
give him, when you've also got people like Eberhard Weber (who you
mentioned), Arild Andersen, Barre Phillips, Marc Johnson, and Palle
Danielsson around, to name but a few. Of those mentioned, they can be
difficult to track down, but if you are at all into the idea of a sort
of "space/jazz" fusion, do NOT miss Mountainscapes (with John Surman)
or Three Day Moon (with Terje Rypdal) by Barre Phillips. Absolute
masterpieces!!
>Terje Rypdal, guitarist
>Descendre ('80) - A Rypdal trio with Palle Mikkelborg (trumpet,keys) and John
>Christensen (Bass,drums). I found this title to rise above many of the others I
>have heard so far. The guitar work tends to be spacey, yet provocative and the
>addition of the trumpet really adds some nice flavor.
Got to give a strong second on this - one of my all time favorites.
>Ralph Towner, guitarist
>Solstice ('75) - A really cool quartet date with Jan Garbarek (sax), Eberhard
>Weber (bass,cello), and Jon Christensen (drums). This album is another one of
>the most notable in the ECM catalog. Beautiful, yet provocative. Simple, yet
>complex. One that demands repeated listens.
There is also Sound And Shadows from '77 featuring this same quartet.
A personal favorite of mine is Blue Sun, from '82. This gets a bit of
a sniff from the more "purist" jazz types, but anybody that's into
early 80's keyboard textures (lush with a capital L!) should try to
hear it some time.
>Stephan Micus, (multi instrumentalist)
>Known for his unconventionality, I was pretty impressed by the one album I have
>of his so far, Implosions. He performs on several different instruments on the
>album and overdubs them as layered tracks. The results are mostly successful.
>In this case, a very worldly feel.
Micus is the kind of person who gives the term "world music" a good
name. His stuff is always interesting, and never has any sort of
"pandering" element that sometimes creeps into some other things
classified in that genre.
>Collin Walcott, Sitar/Tabla
>Another member of Oregon, Collin Walcott recorded a few dates for ECM in the
>70s as a leader, and also as a member of the band "Codona" with Don Cherry. The
>end result of much of his music is an extension of Oregon, with a world fusion
>texture throughout (which I suppose you'll get when you play the sitar and
>tabla drums). My favorites are Grazing Dreams and Codona I.
I would strongly recommend all three Codona records, and also the
little known duet record he did in '81 with Steve Eliovsen, Dawn
Dance.
> At this point, I feel like I've explored the label pretty well in breadth,
>though I need to return to many of the now 100 or so that I own to explore the
>depth of each recording more. I must say that I feel like I've gotten my
>money's worth on most of these recordings. A very interesting label for sure,
>and I think a natural progression for those looking for a crossover from
>progressive music into jazz.
Sounds like you've gotten quite a good stash so far. Some of the
"major" artists that come to mind that you didn't mention are Keith
Jarrett, Pat Metheny, John Surman, and Kenny Wheeler. And there are
also people like Ketil Bjornstad, David Darling, Egberto Gismonti,
Shankar...and a whole lot more!! It's a long list!!!!!!!
One final thing I would like to point out to you (and anybody else
interested) is that if you're looking for some of these things (on CD,
or even in some cases LP) in the US, and are having trouble finding
them, it is definitely worth checking the official website
(www.ecmrecords.com).
There have always been a fair amount of releases that have only ever
gotten a European release, and matters have also not been helped by a
shift every 6 or 7 years in their US distribution (WEA to PolyGram to
BMG and now back to Universal/PolyGram - whereas it has always been
through PolyGram in Europe.) The US shifts have meant that lots of
things have sort of bounced in an out of US availability over the
years (although I have noticed that just recently a few things that
have never been out here on CD before have finally been released - the
first Rypdal, for example.)
Anyway - there's my two cents (give or take $20) worth. Hope it's not
just the two of us here on this - lots of room for lots of discussion
here!
CAP
Johan Lif
news:3d9bb4f...@news.chi.sbcglobal.net...
> This is particularly true of the more recent (say, 90's) material. I
> think much of this is probably down to Manfred Eicher, who runs the
> label. A class gentleman if ever there was one.
Bah. ECM is a label where the sound is defined not by the musician but by
the label manager and his dubious neo-spiritual aesthetics. Marilyn
Crispell, who speaks highly of Eicher, told me she had to struggle during
the recording of one of her albums to get him to accept a take that had some
minor imperfection but was superior in every other way. No wonder then that
most of the stuff he releases sounds lifeless and boring.
Johan
ScippyLisp
>There's one particular ECM album of which I've been praying for a CD reissue
>for a long time: Julian Priester's 'Love Love' from 1973. It's an excellent
>fusion album, featuring some of the same musicians as Herbie Hancock's
>'Sextant', which Priester also played on.
Oh excellent. I love Sextant. I'll keep an eye out, I suppose.
c
o
z
y
ScippyLisp
Thanks for the nice follow up post, CAP.
>Also don't miss Characters, a solo work from '77, and Animato from
>'89, with THE ECM drummer, Jon Christensen.
I have Characters. Not really big into solo works, but it was nice. I'll
eventually hear Animato.
.> (these
>>times I affectionately nickname him "Janny G")
>
>Oh but you really should resist that temptation. It's just such a
>terrible thing to say.
Haha. Well, I agree that this is an insult and unfair. Sometimes, it seems
appropriate though. :-)
>do NOT miss Mountainscapes (with John Surman)
>or Three Day Moon (with Terje Rypdal) by Barre Phillips. Absolute
>masterpieces!!
This was pointed out to my by someone privately as well. I will seek these out.
>Sounds like you've gotten quite a good stash so far. Some of the
>"major" artists that come to mind that you didn't mention are Keith
>Jarrett, Pat Metheny, John Surman, and Kenny Wheeler. And there are
>also people like Ketil Bjornstad, David Darling, Egberto Gismonti,
>Shankar...and a whole lot more!! It's a long list!!!!!!!
I will someday sample a bit of Jarrett, but I don't think he'll be my thing.
Metheny was a notable omission, primarily because I haven't been too keen on
what I've heard so far.
I have some Wheeler coming my way, but I've already heard Gnu High and found it
to be competent.
Getting Shankar too.
c
o
z
y
ScippyLisp
>No wonder then that
>most of the stuff he releases sounds lifeless and boring.>
It's too bad you can't find something more out of it.
c
o
z
y
Guy Berger
> I will someday sample a bit of Jarrett, but I don't think he'll be my
> thing.
Jarrett's recordings on Impulse are generally much stronger than those on
ECM.
Guy
Guy Berger
>>This is particularly true of the more recent (say, 90's) material. I
>>think much of this is probably down to Manfred Eicher, who runs the
>>label. A class gentleman if ever there was one.
>
> Bah. ECM is a label where the sound is defined not by the musician but by
> the label manager and his dubious neo-spiritual aesthetics.
I'm not a huge fan of ECM in general, but in this regard why is it any
different from Impulse (in the 60s and early 70s) or Blue Note
('54-'67)? I think the scope of music released within this aesthetic,
at least in the label's early years, is pretty wide.
That said, I find a lot of their more new-agey offerings to be pretty
dull. And the quality of the music was better in those early years.
Guy
np Muhal Richard Abrams, Levels and Degrees of Light
cap...@hotmail.com
wrote:
Yeah - no "individual" artists like Eminem on ECM, are there?
No offense, Johan (you know I can't resist the Eminem cracks), but you
appear to be WAY out of your depth here. Tell me what percentage of
the over 700 albums on the label you're familiar with, and I'll
(maybe) start to listen to what you have to say on the subject.
cap...@hotmail.com
<guy.b...@NOTyale.edu> wrote:
>
> I'm not a huge fan of ECM in general, but in this regard why is it any
>different from Impulse (in the 60s and early 70s) or Blue Note
>('54-'67)? I think the scope of music released within this aesthetic,
>at least in the label's early years, is pretty wide.
> That said, I find a lot of their more new-agey offerings to be pretty
>dull. And the quality of the music was better in those early years.
I have to say, I do somewhat agree with that last statement. However,
I don't know that that's anybody's "fault", in particular. That's just
the way things are/were. Their (ECM's) peak period (say, most of the
70's) just happened to be a wonderful time for that type of music.
And also, while they maybe have veered a bit more to the "new age"
side (actually, I'd say more classical than new age), there ARE still
some great releases from the "old guard" as it were. Towner, Weber,
DeJohnette and Surman, etc.
cap...@hotmail.com
>Thanks for the nice follow up post, CAP.
More than welcome.
>>do NOT miss Mountainscapes (with John Surman)
>>or Three Day Moon (with Terje Rypdal) by Barre Phillips. Absolute
>>masterpieces!!
>
>This was pointed out to my by someone privately as well. I will seek these out.
A day to look forward to, I promise you!
>I will someday sample a bit of Jarrett, but I don't think he'll be my thing.
Something to remember (or investigate), is that there are quite a few
different "modes" that Jarrett has been in for ECM. There are of
course the solo piano works, but there are also two different quartets
(Belonging, by the way, with the Garbarek "European" quartet, is one
of the all time best on the label), organ material, some orchestral
works (probably the weakest area, but there are some high spots), and
the many trio dates with Peacock and DeJohnette. I must say I used to
be a bit ambivalent towards the man, but he really has won me over in
recent years. Put together, it's a pretty staggering body of work.
>Metheny was a notable omission, primarily because I haven't been too keen on
>what I've heard so far.
I'm not so hot on his later work (though I need to give a lot of it
another try), but I'm pretty big on all the ECM stuff. Would
particularly single out the all-solo "New Chautauqua".
>I have some Wheeler coming my way, but I've already heard Gnu High and found it
>to be competent.
All good - the double Music For Large And Small Ensembles is
definitely one to put a star by, though.
>Getting Shankar too.
Also all good, but best of all is Song For Everyone, with Garbarek,
Trilok Gurtu and Zakir Hussain. "Intense" does not do it justice!!
Godspeed on your further acquistions, sir!
CAP
Steven Sullivan
Johan isn't saying anything I haven't read a dozen times in the music
press already over the years, either in artist interviews or in reviews:
namely, that Eicher is a control freak who strives for a signature 'sound'
and look for his records on his label... a sound that some find bland more
often than not.
ScippyLisp
>>I have some Wheeler coming my way, but I've already heard Gnu High and found
>it
>>to be competent.
>
>All good - the double Music For Large And Small Ensembles is
>definitely one to put a star by, though.
Yay! This was already in the mail on it's way to me as we speak. :-)
c
o
z
y
cap...@hotmail.com
<ssu...@panix.com> wrote:
>cap...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> No offense, Johan (you know I can't resist the Eminem cracks), but you
>> appear to be WAY out of your depth here. Tell me what percentage of
>> the over 700 albums on the label you're familiar with, and I'll
>> (maybe) start to listen to what you have to say on the subject.
>
>Johan isn't saying anything I haven't read a dozen times in the music
>press already over the years, either in artist interviews or in reviews:
>namely, that Eicher is a control freak who strives for a signature 'sound'
>and look for his records on his label... a sound that some find bland more
>often than not.
Fine. I'll say it again, a little more directly this time - do you
form opinions from what you read and "hear" about, or from actual
personal experience with the material being discussed?
Steven Sullivan
>>cap...@hotmail.com wrote:
Depends on who's doing the discussing. I can name three ECM discs that I
*do* have personal experience with - Metheny's first one, Corea's 'Piano
Improvisations VOlume II', and Zakir Hussein's first one. The first and
last *are* rather blander-sounding than I'd hoped , gived the personnel
(e..g, Jaco on bass on 'Bright Size Life' -- and I read much later in the
Jaco biography that the jams by that lineup that *didn't * make it on
record were much 'hotter'), but I'm happy with sound of the Corea. Also
when you keep reading the same critique from artists *and* reviewers who
*have* listened to more of the catalog, you have to wonder if there's some
truth to it.
(Just remembered that I also have 'Cloud About Mercury', which IIRC is ECM
-- and it , like the other two group efforts I named, has a reverby
'fuzziness' to the production that does serve to blandify the
proceedings.)
Guy Berger
> Depends on who's doing the discussing. I can name three ECM discs that I
> *do* have personal experience with - Metheny's first one, Corea's 'Piano
> Improvisations VOlume II', and Zakir Hussein's first one. The first and
> last *are* rather blander-sounding than I'd hoped , gived the personnel
> (e..g, Jaco on bass on 'Bright Size Life' -- and I read much later in the
> Jaco biography that the jams by that lineup that *didn't * make it on
> record were much 'hotter'), but I'm happy with sound of the Corea.
Jarrett's Survivor's Suite also has a blander sound than the same lineup
had on other labels.
Guy
np Ornette, "Peace"
cap...@hotmail.com
<ssu...@panix.com> wrote:
>cap...@hotmail.com wrote:
OK, let me point two things out. First, on a personal note, I don't
necessarily like things "because" they are on ECM - it just so happens
that there are a lot of things on ECM that I DO like, and I admire the
way they present their material. (I feel the same way about CTI,
Impulse, and any other number of labels.)
Secondly, re the supposed "ECM sound" that some people find bland -
let's stop for a minute and think about the number of artists who have
had a very long association with the label. Does it not occur to you
that perhaps the artists LIKE the sound that the label "provides"
them, as it were, hence their long relationship with them? In which
case perhaps your beef is with artists, not the label?
I mean, Guy pointed out in a subsequent post that he thought the
"American Quartet" of Jarrett's sounded better on the Impulse
recordings than on ECM. Fair enough, everybody's entitles to their own
opinion. But again - where did Keith stay? Apparently where he was
more happy, it would seem to me.
Terrell Miller
news:anhsco$h54$1...@reader1.panix.com...
> Depends on who's doing the discussing. I can name three ECM discs that I
> *do* have personal experience with - Metheny's first one, Corea's 'Piano
> Improvisations VOlume II', and Zakir Hussein's first one.
haven't heard the Corea and Hussein, but I assure you that Metheny's first
couple albums are pale shadows of what he did later, both on ECM and Geffen.
Offramp, Travels, and First Circle are gems, and there's absolutely nothing
"bland" about them.
> Also
> when you keep reading the same critique from artists *and* reviewers who
> *have* listened to more of the catalog, you have to wonder if there's some
> truth to it.
really depends on the artist, just like with every other label. I'm a huge
Garbarek fan and I'm really getting into Eberhard Weber, but Bill Frisell
leaves me totally clueless.
I think the reviewers are just getting a little antsy, becuase as you say
there *is* a distinctive "ECM sound", major differences in artists
notwithstanding. So I guess if you're not an avid fan and you have to review
the 74th album that you don't really like and it sounds similar to the other
73...you get the idea.
And to be honest, there's a lot of snob appeal to the whole ECM aura. A lot
of music critics hate that attitude.
> (Just remembered that I also have 'Cloud About Mercury', which IIRC is ECM
> -- and it , like the other two group efforts I named, has a reverby
> 'fuzziness' to the production that does serve to blandify the
> proceedings.)
that one I never did figure out. Bradley Smith raved about it in his book,
and supposedly it has some of Bruford/Levin's best playing, but to me it
just sounded like a bunch of guitar effects overdubbed on a rudimentary
rhythm section. Go figure...
--
Terrell Miller
mill...@bellsouth.net
from an online chat with Jeff Probst:
Q: Which Survivor was the biggest jerk?
A: I have to limit it to one?
Zero the Hero
> >No wonder then that
> >most of the stuff he releases sounds lifeless and boring.>
>
> It's too bad you can't find something more out of it.
Hey, it's Johan. Just point and laugh and move on :-)
0
Michael Borella
> I thought I would post this here because of some member's interests in
> other semi-related genres, including jazz. I won't have much time tomorrow, so
> here it goes: :-)
>
Sean,
Thanks for this list - its great. My biggest problem with ECM is avoiding
the fuzak and finding the gems. I hope this list will help.
Mike Borella
cath...@xnet.com
http://www.borella.net
Johan Lif
news:3D9C5B92...@NOTyale.edu...
> I'm not a huge fan of ECM in general, but in this regard why is it any
> different from Impulse (in the 60s and early 70s) or Blue Note
> ('54-'67)?
The aesthetics and the standards of the actual music, obviously. ECM --
quality releases by major players notwithstanding -- has helped define a
certain modern euro-jazz hegemony that I find very stifling.
Johan
Johan Lif
news:3d9c68b1...@news.chi.sbcglobal.net...
> No offense, Johan (you know I can't resist the Eminem cracks), but you
> appear to be WAY out of your depth here. Tell me what percentage of
> the over 700 albums on the label you're familiar with, and I'll
> (maybe) start to listen to what you have to say on the subject.
I try to keep in touch with their releases. Last batch I heard included CDs
by Louis Sclavis (quite good actually!), Charles Lloyd, Keith Jarrett, Bobo
Stenson and Marilyn Crispell (just compare her playing with Braxton with
that sleepy stuff she's doing nowadays!!). I know about their "modern
compositions" series, I know their Dave Holland releases, etc, etc. I'm
quite familiar with the scope of their output but find even their strongest
releases unsatisfactory in so many ways. Now, Emanem
(http://www.emanemdisc.com/), that's my kind of label.
Johan
ScippyLisp
> but I mostly left this
>interest behind when I started buying Coltrane and what-not.
Heh.
Weird thing is, I did the reverse. sorta. I went from:
Miles/Coltrane ---> Mingus/Dolphy/Ornette/Monk --> Sun Ra/Ayler/Art Ensemble
---> Hancock, Tyner, Alice Coltrane, Pharoah Sanders (and also some soul jazz)
---> ECM (mostly Abercrombie/Garbarek/Rypdal) ---> ???
presently ECM, but also some avant and free jazz artists (Aka Moon and Steve
Coleman), and a cool band called the Ethnic Heritage Ensemble.
There are only a few artists out of this so far that I've abandoned. One being
Monk, which I found to be a bit "schticky" for my tastes <ducks>. :-)
c
o
z
y
Johan Lif
news:3d9c7f9b...@news.chi.sbcglobal.net...
> OK, let me point two things out. First, on a personal note, I don't
> necessarily like things "because" they are on ECM - it just so happens
> that there are a lot of things on ECM that I DO like, and I admire the
> way they present their material.
I really hate those "tasteful" black-and-white photos of crumbling old
chapels and wind-swept rocky landscapes: another reason why I find the
popularity of this label so annoying.
Johan
cap...@hotmail.com
wrote:
><cap...@hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
OK, I'll back off a little then - at the very least, for the excellent
Emanem pun/plug. Doesn't Martin even have some funny little disclaimer
on the site about that?
cap...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>"Guy Berger" <guy.b...@NOTyale.edu> skrev i meddelandet
Possibly. But if you're actually using a word like "hegemony", you're
also past due a good blast of Ramones or Stooges or something. Can't
let that stuff get out of control... ; >
cap...@hotmail.com
wrote:
><cap...@hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
Actually, I'm not so keen on those myself. I DO love most of the 70's
stuff, though. I think from that period they have a lot of contenders
for some of the all-time best album sleeves.
Vincent Kargatis
Marc Johnson's BASS DESIRES, with Frisell, Scofield, and Erskine, from 1985
--
Vincent Kargatis
np: Derek Bailey & Evan Parker - "Arch Duo 3" (Arch Duo)
Zero the Hero
> -- and it , like the other two group efforts I named, has a reverby
> 'fuzziness' to the production that does serve to blandify the
> proceedings.)
Bullshit. That album may be a little wet, but it's hot as hell.
0
NP: Lee Konitz - Subconscious-Lee
cap...@hotmail.com
<lar...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>No mention in the thread of one of my DIDs (so feel obligated):
>
>Marc Johnson's BASS DESIRES, with Frisell, Scofield, and Erskine, from 1985
Might not quite make my DID list, but it is indeed a damn good one.
no.nine
"ScippyLisp" <scipp...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021003101159...@mb-fo.aol.com...
>
>
> >There's one particular ECM album of which I've been praying for a CD
reissue
> >for a long time: Julian Priester's 'Love Love' from 1973. It's an
excellent
> >fusion album, featuring some of the same musicians as Herbie Hancock's
> >'Sextant', which Priester also played on.
>
> Oh excellent. I love Sextant. I'll keep an eye out, I suppose.
'Love Love' isn't quite as freaky as 'Sextant' but somehow it has a pretty
similar feel anyway (mostly). I don't have easy access to the LP at the
moment, but IIRC, Patrick Gleeson is one of the same musicians, providing
weird synths in spots.
Mike Prete *www.progweed.net*
news:3d9cadfe...@news.chi.sbcglobal.net...
> On Thu, 03 Oct 2002 20:48:19 GMT, "Johan Lif" <joha...@telia.com>
> wrote:
>
> ><cap...@hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
> >news:3d9c68b1...@news.chi.sbcglobal.net...
> >> No offense, Johan (you know I can't resist the Eminem cracks), but you
> >> appear to be WAY out of your depth here. Tell me what percentage of
> >> the over 700 albums on the label you're familiar with, and I'll
> >> (maybe) start to listen to what you have to say on the subject.
> >
> >I try to keep in touch with their releases. Last batch I heard included
CDs
> >by Louis Sclavis (quite good actually!), Charles Lloyd, Keith Jarrett,
Bobo
> >Stenson and Marilyn Crispell (just compare her playing with Braxton with
> >that sleepy stuff she's doing nowadays!!). I know about their "modern
> >compositions" series, I know their Dave Holland releases, etc, etc. I'm
> >quite familiar with the scope of their output but find even their
strongest
> >releases unsatisfactory in so many ways. Now, Emanem
> >(http://www.emanemdisc.com/), that's my kind of label.
ROFL. Awesome.
> OK, I'll back off a little then - at the very least, for the excellent
> Emanem pun/plug. Doesn't Martin even have some funny little disclaimer
> on the site about that?
Yeah, it's some classic shit.
"Please note that this has nothing to do with rap!"
http://www.emanemdisc.com/rap.html
--
Mike Prete - Mi...@progweed.net
The Giant Progweed - Progressive Music Reviews
www.progweed.net
ProgDay - www.progday.com
Gnosis - www.gnosis2000.net
Evil Pixies - www.progweed.net/evilpixies/
"'At King' is a good cheesy slice of 80's neo." - Mike Reiss
Steven Sullivan
It would be hotter if it was drier.
Johan Lif
meddelandet news:r27n9.36351$CN2....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
> > OK, I'll back off a little then - at the very least, for the excellent
> > Emanem pun/plug. Doesn't Martin even have some funny little disclaimer
> > on the site about that?
>
> Yeah, it's some classic shit.
>
> "Please note that this has nothing to do with rap!"
>
> http://www.emanemdisc.com/rap.html
This is just dimwitted, I'm afraid. I like Martin Davidson because of the
music he releases, not because of his "social commentary". As for Eminem
making "a career based on the wholesale theft of urban black culture, which
is then marketed as the radical alternative for a white suburban audience",
well, you don't have to turn to The Guardian for such "insights": "Though
I'm not the first king of controversy / I am the worst thing since Elvis
Presley / To do Black Music so selfishly / And use it to get myself wealthy
/ Hey, there's a concept that works / 20 million other white rappers emerge
/ But no matter how many fish in the sea / It will be so empty without me".
Johan
ldb
He first started in the late 60's with a great quintet featuring Jack
deJohnette and a very young Keith Jarrett on piano.
Then he disappeared for some 20 years before a comeback in the mid 80's for
ECM.
All his albums are great, especially the most recent ones:
- Hyperion with Higgins
- The water is wide
- Voice in the night
- Fish out of water
ldb
"ScippyLisp" <scipp...@aol.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:20021002212634...@mb-dh.aol.com...
> I thought I would post this here because of some member's interests in
> other semi-related genres, including jazz. I won't have much time
tomorrow, so
> here it goes: :-)
>
> In my continued jazz explorations, I've discovered I've bought quite a
bit
> this year from the ECM jazz label, mostly all this year.
>
> It's an interesting label, for while it contains some traditional
jazz, but
> much of it (actually most of it) is far from traditional. The label
stretches
> very well onto the borders of free jazz, new age, the ECM "sound" (usually
> defined by a sense of sparseness), and yes.......wait for it......lots of
> progressive music crossovers.
>
> It is an "artist" driven label, as opposed to group driven (like much
jazz
> is), however many of the band configurations swap musicians and become
very
> familiar with each other.
>
> One interesting about this label is that it includes European as
well as
> American artists, many that work together creating a very unique blend of
> music.
>
> Some key artists and albums (forgive me if I don't elaborate too
much on
> specifics as I have only been listening to this music for a short time):
>
> John Abercrombie, guitarist
> Abercrombie is one of the more prolific artists on the label, recording in
> several different band configurations since the mid 70s.
>
> Highlights include:
> Timeless ('74) - noted for having keyboardist Jan Hammer
>
> Gateway ('75) - His Trio band with Dave Holland(bass) and Jack
> DeJohnette(drums) (both common ECM cronies). The first Gateway is really
nice,
> but there are actually 4 "Gateway" recordings through the years.
>
> While We're Young ('93) - A reoccuring 90's trio with Dan Wall (organ) and
Adam
> Naussbaum (drums). Creating a pretty full sound, quite frankly. I think
this is
> their best one.
>
>
>
> Jan Garbarek, tenor sax, alto sax, flute
> Garbarek has some great stuff and really recorded a lot for the ECM label.
The
> drawback.on some albums, I think he was the inspiration for Kenny G.
(these
> times I affectionately nickname him "Janny G")
>
> Highlights include:
> SART ('71) - One of the early ECM albums. This teams Garbarek up with
guitarist
> guru Terje Rypdal. The result is very interesting adventure into European
> avant-garde jazz. A really great experiment that touches on some jazz-rock
> elements as well.
>
> Places ('77) - Teamed up with Bill Connors (guitar), John Taylor (keys),
and
> Jack DeJohnette (drums). I'm really fascinated by the first track,
Reflections.
> At 15min., I think it represents some of the finer directions that
Garbarek's
> music can take. There is nice droning interplay between the organ and sax.
> DeJohnette tends to pretty freely throught the tune.
>
> Madar ('94) - A Trio with Garbarek, Anouar Brahem (oud), and Ustad Shaukat
> Hussein (tabla) that really works! I think this is a testament to the
label's
> drive to experiment with different combinations of musicians in different
> settings. The ultimate result is some interesting world music flavor, with
a
> consistant sax undertone.
>
>
> Dave Holland, bass
> Perhaps the premier bass player on the label. His career has really
flourished
> on ECM in the 90's. His roots are most certainly with swing, and I think
he's
> done a very good job picking up where Charles Mingus left off.
>
> Highlights include:
> Conference of the Birds ('73) - An esteemed date with such notable artists
as
> Anthony Braxton (reeds), Sam Rivers (reeds), and Barry Altschul (drums).
The
> result is a very competent avant-garde blend of jazz which highlights the
> interplay between horns very well. I like it, but don't love it (as of
yet).
> However, it is considered one of the highlights of the label by many.
>
> Extensions ('90) - I love this quartet of Holland, Steve Coleman (sax),
Kevin
> Eubanks (yep..him, on guitar), and Marvin "Smitty" Smith (drums). The
result is
> a blistering avant-jazz date that compositionally leaves room for all the
> players to shine. It helped to turn me on to Steve Coleman as an artist.
>
> What Goes Around ('02) - Brand new release from Dave Holland's new
> configuration, "The Dave Holland Big Band". The majority of the pieces on
this
> album are actually reworked and extended into big band format from earlier
> albums Holland did for the label. The result is a truly professional and
> provocative big band masterpiece that I think highlights Holland and the
ECM
> label as a whole for being able to still kick out some great works.
>
>
> Terje Rypdal, guitarist
> What a fascinating player Rypdal is. Much less "traditional" than
Abercrombie.
> Rypdal through the years has gone from a freer jazz setting, to
guitarscapes,
> to composing symphonic works.
>
> Highlights include:
> Whenever I Seem To Be Far Away ('74) - Great album which 2nd side has
perhaps
> the most "progressive" piece that I've heard to date. Certainly a
crossover for
> fans of prog. Besides, it has mellotron.how can you resist ;)
>
> Odyssey ('75) - I just received this album, but I haven't heard it yet. I
> thought it worthy of special mention because it is considered by many to
be his
> pinnacle work. I'm sure it will be great. Oh, as of right now there is no
CD
> issue that contains the entire original double album. Hopefully there
will be
> soon.
>
> Descendre ('80) - A Rypdal trio with Palle Mikkelborg (trumpet,keys) and
John
> Christensen (Bass,drums). I found this title to rise above many of the
others I
> have heard so far. The guitar work tends to be spacey, yet provocative and
the
> addition of the trumpet really adds some nice flavor.
>
>
> Steve Tibbetts, guitarist/percussionist
> Tibbetts hasn't recorded the same number of albums that the above artists
have,
> but a few of his works are extremely highly regarded. He focus much more
on
> layers and percussion than the average guitarist or jazz artist. The
results
> are some pretty interesting jazz/world fusions.
>
> Highlights include:
> Yr ('80) - Perhaps this is the finest example from this artist. Great
world
> fusion here.
>
>
> Ralph Towner, guitarist
> Also a guitarist for Oregon (who did a few ECM albums in the 80s), Towner
is
> noted for his clean, crisp sound and mastery of the acoustic guitar.
>
> Highlights include:
> Solstice ('75) - A really cool quartet date with Jan Garbarek (sax),
Eberhard
> Weber (bass,cello), and Jon Christensen (drums). This album is another
one of
> the most notable in the ECM catalog. Beautiful, yet provocative. Simple,
yet
> complex. One that demands repeated listens.
>
> Old Friends and New Friends ('79) - A quintet date that really defined how
> versatile Towner could be as he plays not only the guitar, but french horn
and
> piano. I can't comment too much on this one yet, but it demands my return
> shortly.
>
>
> Eberhard Weber, Bass/Cello
> I've recently gotten into this guy's work. He really is an interesting and
> introspective player. I can't comment on much as of yet, but I would
certainly
> recommend:
>
> The Colours of Chloe ('74) - This album is another that perhaps is in the
top
> highly regarded albums on the label. Some really great stuff on here that
I
> would think more closely resembles progressive symphonic music than jazz
in
> most spots. A classic.
>
>
> Other artists of note... perhaps others could expand on these, or add a
few
> more.
>
> Jack DeJohnette, Drums
> As of yet, I've only heard one album of his as a leader (Untitled), but ha
ve a
> few more in waiting. He's been on many albums as a sideman for other ECM
> leaders.
>
> Stephan Micus, (multi instrumentalist)
> Known for his unconventionality, I was pretty impressed by the one album I
have
> of his so far, Implosions. He performs on several different instruments on
the
> album and overdubs them as layered tracks. The results are mostly
successful.
> In this case, a very worldly feel.
>
> Collin Walcott, Sitar/Tabla
> Another member of Oregon, Collin Walcott recorded a few dates for ECM in
the
> 70s as a leader, and also as a member of the band "Codona" with Don
Cherry. The
> end result of much of his music is an extension of Oregon, with a world
fusion
> texture throughout (which I suppose you'll get when you play the sitar and
> tabla drums). My favorites are Grazing Dreams and Codona I.
>
>
> At this point, I feel like I've explored the label pretty well in
breadth,
> though I need to return to many of the now 100 or so that I own to explore
the
> depth of each recording more. I must say that I feel like I've gotten my
> money's worth on most of these recordings. A very interesting label for
sure,
> and I think a natural progression for those looking for a crossover from
> progressive music into jazz.
>
>
> Cozy
>
Send Small Animalcules
>>There's one particular ECM album of which I've been praying for a CD reissue
>>for a long time: Julian Priester's 'Love Love' from 1973. It's an excellent
>>fusion album, featuring some of the same musicians as Herbie Hancock's
>>'Sextant', which Priester also played on.
>
> Oh excellent. I love Sextant. I'll keep an eye out, I suppose.
One ECM album on lots of people's CD reissue wishlists: Wolfgang Dauner's
_Output_. It's a little "free" for my general tastes, but it's undeniably
freaky (consisting entirely of electric piano/clavinet, percussion and
bass/cello, but often everything is so distorted it winds up sounding like
electronic music!) And you gotta love that cover artwork, suitable for framing
(well, it would be if the lamination weren't beginning to peel off my copy).
MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")
make GEORYN disappear to reply
"It is not an obscenity to be free. It is a divine right." --Annette Peacock
N.P.:"Cooking Time of an Egg"- M a d i s o n D y k e / Z e i t m a s c h i n e
Pat Buzby
> ScippyLisp wrote:
>
>
> > I will someday sample a bit of Jarrett, but I don't think he'll be my
>
> > thing.
>
> Jarrett's recordings on Impulse are generally much stronger than those on
> ECM.
I don't think *he'd* agree with that. I do find the Impulse
records more fun, generally.
Pat Buzby
Chicago, IL
ScippyLisp
>
>A pity you did not mention Charles Lloyd.>
Well, with the depth of the catalog, there were bound to be things I that
didn't mention. Thanks for bringing him up.
>
>- Hyperion with Higgins
I have this and found it to be competent. I also have 'All My Relations'.
Definitely Coltrane influenced, from what I've heard.
c
o
z
y
Bradley Evans
> ScippyLisp wrote:
> > I will someday sample a bit of Jarrett, but I don't think he'll be my
> > thing.
>
> Jarrett's recordings on Impulse are generally much stronger than those on
> ECM.
I don't find much difference myself, at least in comparing works by the
Redman/Haden/Motian band. Regardless of label, my favorite moments on all
the group's releases are when Jarrett plays instruments other than piano.
Now _Belonging_, the only Jarrett release I've heard by a group other than
his "American quartet", was truly awful. The inspiration for Sean's "Janny
G" comment is obvious here.
-Brad
Steven Sullivan
> A pity you did not mention Charles Lloyd.
> He first started in the late 60's with a great quintet featuring Jack
> deJohnette and a very young Keith Jarrett on piano.
like 'Forest Flower' -- great stuff.
Bradley Evans
> Bah. ECM is a label where the sound is defined not by the musician but by
> the label manager and his dubious neo-spiritual aesthetics. [...] No wonder
> then that most of the stuff he releases sounds lifeless and boring.
Aside from Dave Holland I've never heard any of ECM's "house artists", but
I probably have 30-odd ECM CDs from people who were already well-established
before their association with the label. I don't find their ECM releases
generally any worse than their other work, Marilyn Crispell and Don Cherry's
_Dona Nostra_ being notable exceptions. I have no issues with their Art
Ensemble, Joe Maneri, Old and New Dreams, or Hal Russell releases, among
others.
-Brad
Captain Biffheart
>I mean, Guy pointed out in a subsequent post that he thought the
>"American Quartet" of Jarrett's sounded better on the Impulse
>recordings than on ECM. Fair enough, everybody's entitles to their own
>opinion. But again - where did Keith stay? Apparently where he was
>more happy, it would seem to me.
To be fair, the fact that Impulse! had gone out of business (at least
as a new release label) by 1978 probably influenced his decision.
Your pal,
Biffy the Elephant Shrew
http://members.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html
http://www.mp3.com/michaelpdawson
It seems history is to blame.
Captain Biffheart
>> but I mostly left this
>>interest behind when I started buying Coltrane and what-not.
>
>Heh.
>
>Weird thing is, I did the reverse. sorta. I went from:
>
>Miles/Coltrane ---> Mingus/Dolphy/Ornette/Monk --> Sun Ra/Ayler/Art Ensemble
>---> Hancock, Tyner, Alice Coltrane, Pharoah Sanders (and also some soul
>jazz)
>---> ECM (mostly Abercrombie/Garbarek/Rypdal) ---> ???
And I got into them simultaneously. The first jazz albums I ever bought
included LPs by Coltrane, Ornette Coleman, Archie Shepp, Terje Rypdal
and John Abercrombie (also Michal Urbaniak and Urszula Dudziak).
Captain Biffheart
I swear that the top figure on the cover of Eberhard Weber's
_Chorus_ is me.
Michael Feathers
"Johan Lif" <joha...@telia.com> wrote in message
news:s4Sm9.334$MV.1...@newsc.telia.net...
> <cap...@hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:3d9bb4f...@news.chi.sbcglobal.net...
> > This is particularly true of the more recent (say, 90's) material. I
> > think much of this is probably down to Manfred Eicher, who runs the
> > label. A class gentleman if ever there was one.
>
> Bah. ECM is a label where the sound is defined not by the musician but by
> Crispell, who speaks highly of Eicher, told me she had to struggle during
> the recording of one of her albums to get him to accept a take that had
some
> minor imperfection but was superior in every other way. No wonder then
that
> most of the stuff he releases sounds lifeless and boring.
Well, the only thing I have on ECM is David Torn's Cloud About Mercury and I
find that far and away better than anything else he's ever made. The album
pretty much stands by itself... I've never heard anyone get into that space
again.
Michael (ducking stones from Polytown fans)
Captain Biffheart
>A pity you did not mention Charles Lloyd.
>He first started in the late 60's with a great quintet featuring Jack
>deJohnette and a very young Keith Jarrett on piano.
>Then he disappeared for some 20 years before a comeback in the mid 80's
>for ECM.
He couldn't have been gone that long-- he had a very high-profile
release in 1972: _Waves_ on A&M, which included the pop-crossover
"T.M." (with Beach Boys vocals and Roger McGuinn guitar).
Guy Berger
> There are only a few artists out of this so far that I've abandoned. One being
> Monk, which I found to be a bit "schticky" for my tastes <ducks>. :-)
Schticky? And how many prog albums do you have in your collection? :)
Guy
np Ben Webster & Associates
Guy Berger
>> A pity you did not mention Charles Lloyd.>
>
> Well, with the depth of the catalog, there were bound to be things I
> that didn't mention. Thanks for bringing him up.
>
>> - Hyperion with Higgins
>
> I have this and found it to be competent. I also have 'All My
> Relations'.
Hyperion is nice, but I think the Water Is Wide (more ballad-oriented,
same lineup) is substantially better. The version of Hoagy Carmichael's
"Georgia" is beautiful.
> Definitely Coltrane influenced, from what I've heard.
It's true, and it bugs me a little, because these days Lloyd doesn't have
a quarter of the intensity that Coltrane did in those days. That's why
I prefer his ballad playing.
On the other hand, in the 60s he could really burn. Be sure to check out
some of his stuff with Chico Hamilton.
Guy
Guy Berger
>>Jarrett's recordings on Impulse are generally much stronger than those on
>>ECM.
>
> I don't find much difference myself, at least in comparing works by the
> Redman/Haden/Motian band. Regardless of label, my favorite moments on all
> the group's releases are when Jarrett plays instruments other than piano.
I was comparing across the entire catalogue; I agree that Survivor's Suite is one of the American Quartet's better albums, but Eyes of the Heart is pretty lame.
> Now _Belonging_, the only Jarrett release I've heard by a group other than
> his "American quartet", was truly awful. The inspiration for Sean's "Janny
> G" comment is obvious here.
I don't think it's great, but not awful either. I put it in the same
class as Weather Report's Heavy Weather and some of the Pat Metheny
Group stuff.
Guy
sdavmor
<looks aghast>
Whatever are you suggesting, Guy? ;-)
--
Cheers,
SDM -- a 21st century schizoid man
http://systemstheory.net internet music project
http://thecleanersystem.com software for dry cleaners
NP: nothing
ScippyLisp
>Schticky? And how many prog albums do you have in your collection? :)
>
heh.
Well, if they were all recorded by the same artist, it'd be a different thing.
I heard the Monk - Blue Note Box, the 15cd complete Riverside sessions, most of
his 60s Columbia material, and a '71 live show. (essentially about 85% of his
recorded output).
Much of it was pretty samey to me. The same sorts of cadences, finger rolls,
and other little funny little tricks. A notable exception was Brilliant
Corners. Very nice album.
c
o
z
y
ScippyLisp
>
> It's true, and it bugs me a little, because these days Lloyd doesn't
have
>a quarter of the intensity that Coltrane did in those days. That's why
>I prefer his ballad playing.
My feelings exactly. I liked the slower tunes on Hyperion quite a bit. I' ll
have to get Water is Wide sometime then.
c
o
z
y
TOIB
> Much of it was pretty samey to me. The same sorts of cadences, finger rolls,
> and other little funny little tricks. A notable exception was Brilliant
> Corners. Very nice album.
How exactly is Brilliant Corners significantly different from
everything else he was doing at that time? I know it is more well-regarded
critically, but it seems odd to actually be indifferent to his catalog but
THEN say this one album was "very nice".
Regards,
--
Sean McFee
ScippyLisp
>How exactly is Brilliant Corners significantly different from
>everything else he was doing at that time?>>
I found it to be quite different compositionally. The extended pieces on
that particular album made a big difference for me. Maybe his most original
work. It's hard for me to put it into words, but in listening to all the
surrounding material, it really does stand out.
< I know it is more well-regarded
>critically>,
Yes, it is. And in this case, I happen to agree with the critics.
<<but it seems odd to actually be indifferent to his catalog but
>THEN say this one album was "very nice".>
So I'm odd then. ;-)
Keep in mind that I said "much of it was pretty samey". But that should be
taken "in general", not as a blanket statement.
I've found other contemporary artists that had long careers to be more diverse
in their recordings over the years.
I do not hate Monk. My Gnosis rates reflect that I find his work to be average
to good. But I wouldn't personally put him (sonically) on my scale next to
artists like Miles/Coltrane/Dolphy/Ornette/Sun Ra, etc. And I don't feel it's
important to own much of his catalog to get a general sense of what he
accomplished.
c
o
z
y
Guy Berger
>> How exactly is Brilliant Corners significantly different from everything
>> else he was doing at that time?>>
>
> I found it to be quite different compositionally. The extended
> pieces on that particular album made a big difference for me. Maybe
> his most original work. It's hard for me to put it into words, but
> in listening to all the surrounding material, it really does stand
> out.
What extended pieces are you talking about? Performances from that
period usually involve Monk playing the melody on piano, the group
joining in, a series of solos, and the melody again. The compositions
themselves aren't unusually "extended" either.
> Keep in mind that I said "much of it was pretty samey". But that
> should be taken "in general", not as a blanket statement.
You said "shticky", not "samey". I'll agree with you that there isn't an
enormous variety over Monk's career after 1959 and that the rest of his
career was to some extent repetitive. (Though there are worse things to
rehash.)
I actually own substantially less Monk than you (just over a dozen
albums) so that may explain our difference of perspectives.
> I've found other contemporary artists that had long careers to be
> more diverse in their recordings over the years.
No disagreement. But I think if you're looking for diversity in Monk
over his entire career you may be missing something.
Guy
ScippyLisp
I had no intention to get into a debate about Monk. My original mention of
him was to be taken in the perspective of a larger scale jazz discussion.
> > Keep in mind that I said "much of it was pretty samey". But that
> > should be taken "in general", not as a blanket statement.
>
> You said "shticky", not "samey"
I said both. Schticky in the original mention, samey in a follow up.
>I actually own substantially less Monk than you (just over a dozen
>albums) so that may explain our difference of perspectives.
Very possible. Though I sold most of the Monk I had, partially because I *did*
find it repetitive.
c
o
z
y
Jonathan Roberts
I recall an interview with Pat Metheny in which he said, of ECM, that if
the label had its way each record would be five ballads with a
bossa-nova as an up-tempo change of pace.
--
-- Jon
jonathan roberts * guitar keyboard vocal * North River Preservation
-------------------------------------------------------------------
in days somehow distracted / in nights of troubled sleep
these memories long suppressed emerge / too difficult to keep
Pat Buzby
> I recall an interview with Pat Metheny in which he said, of ECM, that if
> the label had its way each record would be five ballads with a
> bossa-nova as an up-tempo change of pace.
More specifically, I believe the quote was if Eicher had his way.
I understand that Metheny and Eicher eventually clashed, which may be
why First Circle was produced by Metheny with Eicher as "executive
producer," and that Metheny has had few kind words for Eicher since.
Which makes it interesting that Metheny apparently has an upcoming
entry in the "rarum" series...
Pat Buzby
Chicago, IL
Vincent Kargatis
news:9fd3c272.0210...@posting.google.com...
> I understand that Metheny and Eicher eventually clashed,
> Which makes it interesting that Metheny apparently has an upcoming
> entry in the "rarum" series...
How so? Guaranteed money in the bank...
--
Vincent Kargatis
np: The Vandermark 5 - "C.M.E./G. Song (Julius Hemphill)" (Free Jazz
Classics 2)
Pat Buzby
> "Pat Buzby" <pbu...@surfnetcorp.com> wrote in message
> news:9fd3c272.0210...@posting.google.com...
> > I understand that Metheny and Eicher eventually clashed,
> [...]
> > Which makes it interesting that Metheny apparently has an upcoming
> > entry in the "rarum" series...
>
> How so? Guaranteed money in the bank...
Well, considering that the premise of "rarum" is that the artist
picks the tracks and contributes liner notes (usually talking about
their ECM experiences), I'm curious what Metheny would have to say in
that setting.
Pat Buzby
Chicago, IL
Robert Carter
Michael Feathers wrote:
> Well, the only thing I have on ECM is David Torn's Cloud About Mercury and I
> find that far and away better than anything else he's ever made. The album
> pretty much stands by itself... I've never heard anyone get into that space
> again.
>
> Michael (ducking stones from Polytown fans)
My favorite Torn records are with his earlier band, the Everyman Band. They
made two records in the early eighty's on ECM, but these have never been
reissued on CD to my knowledge. Marty Fogel, the sax player from the band does
have a solo CD on CMP which includes some other of Torn's best playing in my
opinion.
Bob Carter
Zero the Hero
> My favorite Torn records are with his earlier band, the Everyman Band. They
> made two records in the early eighty's on ECM, but these have never been
> reissued on CD to my knowledge.
The first album hasn't been reissued (those bastards!), but _Without
Warning_ has, though it may not have released in the States. I got
mine from ECM directly.
> Marty Fogel, the sax player from the band does
> have a solo CD on CMP which includes some other of Torn's best playing in my
> opinion.
Oh yeah, another great one. Wish that band had done more...
0
NP: Robin Eubanks - Get 2 It