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Permagroove

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saul e. wertheimer

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Nov 6, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/6/96
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I would like to discuss a style of PHiSH's playing which has become known to
me as "Permagroove." This term was first applied by Drew, who illustrated
it by playing the Albany 12/9/95 YEM for me. Early on in the jam, no one is
soloing, & PHiSH has moved into a groove; if you don't like the groove, you
won't like the tune, because they're gonna stick with it for a while.

Another example of permagroove is the 12/29/95 Bathtub Gin > Real Me >
Bathtub Gin. The entire thing is not permagroove, but much of it is.

I have been searching for a *definition* of Permagroove, because I could
really only think of it in terms of the music. It was on halloween that I
came upon this definition. Trey said it. In the Phishbill, it is thus written:
"What I like about 'Remain In Light'... is the textural aspect. I like
music that's got an AFrican influence, where nobody's soloing but
everybody's playing these tiny patterns and leaving a lot of space. It's
something we try to do with Phish, a process where everyone is adding bits
and pieces -- sort of like creating a mosaic of sound."

Well, Trey said it perfectly. Permagroove = a mosaic of sound.

There are numerous fine examples of Permagroove, but right now they are
escaping my memory. Has anyone noticed that PHiSH has been employing
permagroove style only fairly recently? IMO, the entire rendition of
"Remain In Light" consisted of some of the dankest permagroove I've ever
heard. I'd like to hear what others think about Permagroove.

Peace...
sauldude.

saul e. wertheimer * "head busted, stomach cracked,
1130 church st. #4-4 * feet splintered, i was bald, naked...
evanston, il 60201 * quite lucky to be alive though."
847-492-1283 * - bob dylan
saul...@merle.acns.nwu.edu *


Sunil Shah

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Nov 6, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/6/96
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In <55p4i2$7...@agate.berkeley.edu> "saul e. wertheimer"

<saul...@merle.acns.nwu.edu> writes:
>
>I would like to discuss a style of PHiSH's playing which has become
known to
>me as "Permagroove." This term was first applied by Drew, who
illustrated
>it by playing the Albany 12/9/95 YEM for me. Early on in the jam, no
one is
>soloing, & PHiSH has moved into a groove; if you don't like the
groove, you
>won't like the tune, because they're gonna stick with it for a while.

I think, if I understand you, that an example might be the ALO
Tweezer well into the song...can't find exact spot now, but maybe
saul/someone else can acknowledge this.

***examples snipped***

> It's
>something we try to do with Phish, a process where everyone is adding
bits
>and pieces -- sort of like creating a mosaic of sound."
>
>Well, Trey said it perfectly. Permagroove = a mosaic of sound.
>
>There are numerous fine examples of Permagroove, but right now they
are
>escaping my memory. Has anyone noticed that PHiSH has been employing
>permagroove style only fairly recently?

AH HAA!! Could you consider the "wall of sound" in Possums of late to
be a permagroove? I think the permagroove concept is what prompted the
mini-kit or at least the addition of another percussionist. It's one
more easy to add piece of a groove/layer of sound.
I think that Latin music is the easiest to find a permagroove in, but
Phish effectively employs it in their concerts and on Billy Breathes.
That's my loose change.
getting an earful of cheeeeeese from slick 'Willy,
Sunil :-)

Matthew Grillo

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Nov 6, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/6/96
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Sunil Shah (sh...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: In <55p4i2$7...@agate.berkeley.edu> "saul e. wertheimer"


Another fine example of the permagroove would be alot of the 12/31/95 show.

Particularly, the "Runaway Jim"


as well as "Drowned", and "Weekapaug Groove"

-Matt

Scott Wieser

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Nov 6, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/6/96
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Check out 5/7/94, the PermaTweezerGroove...

II: Loving Cup, Sparkle, Tweezer > Blues Jam > Tweezer > Sparks >
Makisupa > Jam > Sweet Emotion Jam > Walk Away > Jam > Cannonball Jam >
Purple Rain > Hold your Head up Jam > Jam > Tweezer Reprise

that was a set-long permagroove

-scott


saul e. wertheimer wrote:
>
> I would like to discuss a style of PHiSH's playing which has become known to
> me as "Permagroove." This term was first applied by Drew, who illustrated
> it by playing the Albany 12/9/95 YEM for me. Early on in the jam, no one is
> soloing, & PHiSH has moved into a groove; if you don't like the groove, you
> won't like the tune, because they're gonna stick with it for a while.
>

> Another example of permagroove is the 12/29/95 Bathtub Gin > Real Me >
> Bathtub Gin. The entire thing is not permagroove, but much of it is.
>
> I have been searching for a *definition* of Permagroove, because I could
> really only think of it in terms of the music. It was on halloween that I
> came upon this definition. Trey said it. In the Phishbill, it is thus written:
> "What I like about 'Remain In Light'... is the textural aspect. I like
> music that's got an AFrican influence, where nobody's soloing but

> everybody's playing these tiny patterns and leaving a lot of space. It's


> something we try to do with Phish, a process where everyone is adding bits
> and pieces -- sort of like creating a mosaic of sound."
>
> Well, Trey said it perfectly. Permagroove = a mosaic of sound.
>
> There are numerous fine examples of Permagroove, but right now they are
> escaping my memory. Has anyone noticed that PHiSH has been employing

Sunil Shah

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Nov 6, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/6/96
to

In <55qhqp$o...@agate.berkeley.edu> frederic howell
<fho...@EVFUNNY.E-TECHNIK.UNI-DORTMUND.DE> writes:
>
>Permagroove?
>
>It doesn't appeal to me. I don't dislike it, but my musical mindset
>prefers music that "goes somewhere". I think the boundaries
>of a "mosaic of sound" are too confining, that ultimately
>"permagrooviness" gives rise to a complacency among the musicians
>which encourages them to stop exploring.

I don't think permagroove means the band is done jamming, it's just
like they want to enjoy the groove for a second. It's like, in a
comparative manner, someone who is 35 yrs old and successful wanting to
enjoy life for a few years, but they aren't nearly ready to retire yet.
The band is at a point in the jam where they are so off track from
their original song that they want to just jive with it. Then, any of
the members can change their piece of the permagroove so as to alter
the groove of the permagroove.(what did that mean?)
Mike could be here---> X X X
Trey could be here---> X X
Page could be here---> X X
Fish could be here---> X X XX
In musical terms, Fish might be on beat 1, Page on the 'and' of 1,
Trey on 2, mike on the 'and' of 2...etc..
Then, when they want to change the permagroove, Fish might move to
beat 3, Page to 1, Mike to 'and' of 2, Trey might stay where he is.
Anyone understand this nonsense? I think this is what their "filling
in your hey" excercise is sort of about. They can even take it further
by playing in different time signatures so as to throw off the
'expected' groove. An example would be that spot in Harry Hood(3:43
ALO) where (i think) Trey and Page/Fish are meeting up on a different
beat.
oh well...some weird thoughts..let me know if I'm right about that
Harry Hood thing. I almost think it's just that they go from 4/4 to to
5/4 or something.
Sunil :-)

frederic howell

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Nov 6, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/6/96
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Permagroove?

It doesn't appeal to me. I don't dislike it, but my musical mindset
prefers music that "goes somewhere". I think the boundaries
of a "mosaic of sound" are too confining, that ultimately
"permagrooviness" gives rise to a complacency among the musicians
which encourages them to stop exploring.

Or maybe this is just my wordy justification for my modest
opinion of the 12/9/95 YEM - i.e. it's OK, nothing special.

frederic

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