Hose and Improvisational Music
Charles Dirksen
The following is from an NPR radio interview of Mike Gordon and Trey
Anastasio of Phish just after Hoist was released in Spring 1994, if I
recall correctly.
Interviewer("Int"): I wondered how much you were all influenced by
Frank Zappa?
Trey: Oh. Particularly myself and Fish, our drummer. I was heavily
influenced. As a matter of fact, the two of us -- (pause) I remember
going and following him around for a week or so, at one point, back
when he was still touring and alive. But I always liked any kind of
improvised live music, be it Frank Zappa, or the Dead, or Jazz. And I
think that's the One Love that we all shared. And --
Int: But the thing about Frank Zappa's improvised music is there was
a certain control to it, a certain discipline to it, whereas a lot of
improvisation can end up being rather self-indulgent.
Trey: Yeah, absolutely. We actually have exercises that we do, where
we work on improving our improvising as a group. It gets rid of the
ego. It's an exercise to get rid of the ego. And the more that we do
it the more we find that our improvisations are less concerned with
showing off flashy solos or whatever, and more concerned with making a
group sound. There's a feeling that we always talk about. When we
went out with Santana, he had brought up this thing about the Hose. I
don't know if you heard about that but uh --
Int: No, I didn't.
Trey: -- where the music is like water rushing through you and as a
musician your function is really like that of a hose. And, and well
his thing is that the audience is like a sea of flowers, you know, and
you're watering the audience. But the concept of music going through
you, that you're not actually creating it, that what you're doing is
-- the best thing that you can do is get out of the way. So, when you
are in a room full of people, there's this kindof group vibe that
seems to get rolling sometimes.
Mike: It gets -- It really starts to seem like It's not the audience
or the band. This Thing that gets rolling is It's OWN Thing. When
things are going really well, and a jam has taken off, there's this
feeling of motion that is created by the rhythm. And at that point
my bass that I'm playing feels like this sortof vehicle, or like a
hitch for me to hold on to, like someone would hold on to a um --
Int: Sounds like water-skiing. [Trey laughs and says "yeah yeah
like water-skiing"]
Mike: Like if you were on a -- I was thinking if you were on a ski
lift, maybe. A chair lift. Or just something that would hook you
on to the motion that's going, and pull you along with IT.
Trey: And yeah the proof of that is that you can't -- the water
skiing is a good, is a good analogy when it really gets going --
Mike: Yeah that is a good one actually.
Trey: -- and I think the proof of IT is that there are times when you
just can't pull IT together and you try and try and try and you're
beating your head against the wall and IT's just not happening. And
that kindof shows right there that you can't pull IT: IT's got to
pull you.
***END SNIPPET OF NPR RADIO REVIEW***
I still consider "IT" or "Hose" a concept of transcendent, mystical
proportions, even though I realize that some people use the term
loosely. IT is the fruit of the communication of musical genius and
being with an Other; with Love, with Life, with Being Itself. The
apotheosis of humanity through music, IT penetrates the fiber of our
existence and gloriously uplifts, strengthens and fulfills us. Many
of us, anyway -- although I believe that everyone can experience IT.
The Hose is also obviously not just a part of the experience of
Phish's music for many people. IT is an aspect of the Experience of
improvisational music in general, and a feeling that I first
experienced through The Grateful Dead, and then through Phish and
other improvisational bands (like Zero, MMW, Allmans, Santana, LoS,
moe., etc.). I think it is fair to suggest that gloriously composed
and passionately performed classical music has this Power, too. And
it should go without saying that some bands convey IT more often than
others, though.. :)
I reserve the use of "Hose" to describe improvisation when I get the
impression that the band, audience and music have gelled into a triune
Being of world-transcending blessedness. Jams that jettison the soul
skyward in a manner that is mystically astray from the expected and
typical course, but which *WORK* and weave tapestries of enchanting,
bissful melodies around our souls. The improvisation of the 2/15/73
Eyes of the World, early 70s Dark Stars & Elevens & New Potatoes, the
5/8/77 ScarletFire, etc. [continue this thread with more obscure
versions of your favorite jamming band... :-) ]
For example, if, suddenly, in 'Bathtub Gin' (see 8/13/93 -- my first
experience of Phish Hose), the jam segues from being a typical
Gin-sortof jam into a weekapaugian groove, this is Hose. In
'Antelope,' it wouldn't be an 'Antelope' if the jam didn't kick your
ass and follow a fast-paced, tear-it-up style. THIS jamming isn't
"Hose," since it would be akin to a normal kickass Antelope; that is,
what you'd _reasonably_ expect to hear within the confines of The Song
(see also numerous versions of 'Deal' or 'SMAG' or 'Bucket' or
'Cassidy' etc.). Hose in 'Antelope' would be something completely
unusual for 'Antelope': where the 'Antelope' takes on a different form
completely, and Becomes An Other Endeavor ENTIRELY (or *ALMOST*
entirely, in some cases... see 10/24/95 Madison or a few Antelopes
from Aug 93..).
Another example of Hose would be the 'Bowie' from 12/29/94-2, which
every aphishionado should hear. The 12/29/94-2 'Bowie' is a
compelling Work of Art that explores territory never before explored
in the song (although also see the 11/26/94 'Bowie'). Much of the
improvisation of this version mellifluously CLICKED and carried
everyone giddily along (and CONTINUES to so carry... we should use the
present tense when talking about the power of these jams and the
experience of music as Hose... it doesn't take that much imagination
with a good pair of headphones!). The Dead experienced "Hose" like
this in practically every version of 'Dark Star' (which was called
"IT" by numerous fans, by the way), not to mention an awe-inspiring
number of other songs, at different times throughout their career.
Some more recent examples of Hose? Some people argue that all segues
are "hose," but I would suggest that only Powerful Segues are Hose.
Segues in which both songs are being played at the same time, and one
truly MORPHS into the other (such as 'Gin' -> 'Yamar' of 8/13/93, or
12/29/94 'Runaway'->'Foam,' or 'Gin' -> 'Real Me' -> 'Gin' of
12/29/95, or practically all Scarlet->Fire's and Help->Slip's etc.).
The Grateful Dead were (and ARE.. IT LIVES) the Masters of the
Profound Segue.
The recent 'Simple' of 12/6/96 Vegas is Hose, in my opinion. There's
an excellent, thrilling Jam in that version (the final ten minutes of
it or so), which begins after a dramatic key change and out of the
remnants of a typically inspiring 'Simple' jam. The second set of
Amsterdam 1997 clearly bears witness to Hose. The segue into 'Lucy
with a Lumpy Head?' Magnificent, even if you don't like this odd new
song.
The extremely straightforward segue from 'Houses' into 'Seen' of the
10/31/95 Remain in Light set -- that's Hose, in my opinion, although I
doubt the band members were all water-skiing at the time! That segue
just sounds so delicious on tape that I can close my eyes and imagine
being carried along by It, easily. See also the JAM out of 'Suzy' (of
all things) of 11/13/96, the 'DWD' of 11/27/96 Seattle which sure as
Icculus ain't typical.
"Hose" to me is a word that should be reserved for INTENSELY thrilling
& passionate improvisational events, and not for the Same Old Kickass
Jam Segments. If someone tells me they were "hosed" by a given
'Antelope' or 'Chalk Dust' or 'Possum,' I'll raise my eyebrows and
smile. But check out the version. "Hose" to me isn't merely
ass-kicking. IT is Earth-shaking and Revelatory. IT is of Profound
Significance in Phishtory; an event not merely "special" but worthy
of the highest esteem.
And I think most of the people taking the time to read this message
know what A Special Event is when they Hear IT, no matter how much or
how little Phish (or Dead, or Whatever) they have heard. Usually the
only thing that's a matter of debate is HOW amazing and magical IT
was. ("Hey man, I was there and it was much better for me than it is
for you on tape, no matter how insightful your imagination is!" ;)
Everyone knows instinctively that The Hose Jam was powerfully moving
in a spiritually profound way, whether they prefer to use the word
"spiritual," or something less prickly (but lame) like "emotional" or
"groovy." Or unless they weren't listening, in my opinion. =^] I am
"Hosed" whenever I encounter the aforementioned sort of JAM, and have
the good fortune to share in its Majesty with the band.
Tunes/Songs, in order to be "tunes" or "songs," follow a Plan: a
structure that controls and holds the melody and rhythm, the measures
and the lyrics. This structure is objectively based (we can
intersubjectively communicate about it as "fact" and "truth" and
symbolize it), but our appreciation of its merits is obviously
subjective. Hose to me, though, necessarily loses the structure of
the tune -- at **LEAST** in the sense that the jam or composition has
created repercussions more significant than it ever had before, within
the confines of the Typical DWD Jam Segment Structure, or Typical FOTM
Jam Segment Structure, or what have you. Hose is something that we
can experience and communciate about intersubjectively; given the
trinity of band, audience and the music, we have to experience IT
together as One. To communicate about IT is mysteriously complex in
light of our subjective experiences, but yet IT may be communicated
merely with a knowing Smile to a fellow brother or sister. Have you
ever seen that Gleam in the eyes of people who have experienced Joy?
Some truly blessed folks have that Gleam all the time.
Where the comfortable confines of a Song are transcended or abandoned,
and mysteriously thrilling improvisation seizes the moment, with The
Spirit we soar and are towed...
I hope that all of you who have read this far will continue to seek,
for it is only by seeking that you will find, and experience, IT.
And though IT sure as 420 isn't 'Sparkle' or 'Liberty,' every
improvisationally inspired song has potential to Hose us off...
charlie dirksen
"...skipping diamonds in the big time..."
(Dude of Life, "Skippy")
Timothy Lynch
Thanks Charlie, for sharing the Phishy Santana thoughts about the "hose."
I buy the idea thoroughly. For one thing, it definitely helps explain why
everyone in the Fillmore on April 5, 1997 was soaking wet with flower food
and joy during and after Leftover Salmon (with Pete Sears & Paul
McCandless) played that 25 minute Rueben's Train --> When the Levee Breaks
--> Rueben's Train workout.... ;-) Euphoria, indeed!
while the music plays the band,
Tim
Timothy Lynch, da Flower Punk tly...@violet.berkeley.edu
History, UCB f_p...@uclink4.berkeley.edu
"The river just goes wherever the hell it wants." - Vince Herman, LoS
Matthew Hoffman
I agree with most of what charlie stated in his post. The one thing that
i did not agree with is that the Gin-->Yamar from the murat in '93 is a
transcendental segue. I think that this segue was clearly planned ahead
of time and because of this sounds "forced". This segue should not be
considered hose because the band is in control and "aware" of the segue
taking place. Peace, and may the hose be with you.
matt
Aaron Baraff
In article <5ii6ur$e...@agate.berkeley.edu>, Charles Dirksen
<dirk...@dons.ac.usfca.edu> wrote:
> The following is from an NPR radio interview of Mike Gordon and Trey
> Anastasio of Phish just after Hoist was released in Spring 1994, if I
> recall correctly.
I'm pretty sure that interview is actually from Fall 1994 on Weekend
Edition. I remember listening to it in my dorm room and I wasn't yet in
college back in Spring 1994.
Aaron.
--
Aaron Baraff, Macalester College, 1600 Grand Ave, St. Paul, MN 55105
email->aba...@macalester.edu WWW->http://www.macalester.edu/~abaraff
Brian Joshua Daignault
Charles Dirksen (dirk...@dons.ac.usfca.edu) wrote:
: proportions, even though I realize that some people use the term
: being with an Other; with Love, with Life, with Being Itself. The
: apotheosis of humanity through music, IT penetrates the fiber of our
: existence and gloriously uplifts, strengthens and fulfills us. Many
: of us, anyway -- although I believe that everyone can experience IT.
Lots of big words and heavy ideas Charlie. No, not everyone can
experience it. Only about 7% of the population truly get it. You have to
have a very large and open mind to comprehend what a group of musicians
are saying, and what those sentiments have to do with each other...kind
of like that room in Disneyworld where there are 8 conversations at once,
and you have to see how many you can interpret. The hose is only the tip
of the iceberg. What Santana is referring to is the way he can modally
solo over basic and static chord changes his band performs (see Allmans,
the Dead, moe and millions of others). Inspiring, often beautiful, but no
major task to perform or receive.
: The Hose is also obviously not just a part of the experience of
: Phish's music for many people. IT is an aspect of the Experience of
: improvisational music in general, and a feeling that I first
: experienced through The Grateful Dead, and then through Phish and
: other improvisational bands (like Zero, MMW, Allmans, Santana, LoS,
: moe., etc.). I think it is fair to suggest that gloriously composed
: and passionately performed classical music has this Power, too. And
: it should go without saying that some bands convey IT more often than
: others, though.. :)
Improvisational music is NOT what those bands play (see above). The
closest any com is the Dead doing "Space", and even that is contrived;
meaning to say that for the most part it was just various band members
seeing what kinds of noises they could get from their processors.
Classical music is entirely absent of anything hose-like. Composed around
a theme that constantly repeats (with modulations), there is no
improvisation or real feeling portrayed by the musicians...it is kind of
like saying that someone doing an algebraic equation in front of the
class is turning on the hose. "IT" as you call it cannot exist on a
conscious level of the musician...and classical music is blatantly
conscious (see music stand)
: I reserve the use of "Hose" to describe improvisation when I get the
: impression that the band, audience and music have gelled into a triune
: Being of world-transcending blessedness. Jams that jettison the soul
: skyward in a manner that is mystically astray from the expected and
: typical course, but which *WORK* and weave tapestries of enchanting,
: bissful melodies around our souls. The improvisation of the 2/15/73
: Eyes of the World, early 70s Dark Stars & Elevens & New Potatoes, the
: 5/8/77 ScarletFire, etc. [continue this thread with more obscure
: versions of your favorite jamming band... :-) ]
Take the 12.9.95 YEM at Albany...total bliss between the band and the crowd,
but why? Because they hit a certain rhythm and chord progression that
felt good. You have most likely listened to that jam enough to know that
Fish just catches on to a RARE groove for him, and Trey responds with
some even more RARE chordal jamming with a very major and melodic feel.
This may be what you call the hose, but it is far from true
improvisation...very common themes, just not to Phish. They knew what
they were doing, the patterns were calculated, and as soon as they
moderated them, the jam more or less fell apart. Remember, 93% of people
cannot even pick up on true improvisatory music...so when something is
this universally liked, it is not because it is cosmic in its reaches and
powerful in such an esoteric way that it can truly bend your mind and soul.
in the song (although also see the 11/26/94 'Bowie'). Much of the
: improvisation of this version mellifluously CLICKED and carried
: everyone giddily along (and CONTINUES to so carry... we should use the
Bullshit...that is not a very popular Bowie...there is a good deal of
true improvisation there, but you and I know that the vast majority of
the audience was sitting there saying "Man, is this still the same song?
When are they going to play something else?" (see also FLeezer)
: with a good pair of headphones!). The Dead experienced "Hose" like
: this in practically every version of 'Dark Star' (which was called
: "IT" by numerous fans, by the way), not to mention an awe-inspiring
: number of other songs, at different times throughout their career.
Mmm....I would have to disagree, in that the Dead were MODAL improvisers,
and not extremely great ones at it either. Very important to note this,
because legions of Dead fans will boast about how much they dig
"improvisational music", but play them Ornette Coleman's "Free Jazz", and
they won't last a minute. STTA is a good example as well. Legions of
Phish fans who just love improvisation go out and buy this disc because
Trey and Fish are on it, only to bitch on the net for weeks about how
much it sucked.
: truly MORPHS into the other (such as 'Gin' -> 'Yamar' of 8/13/93, or
: 12/29/94 'Runaway'->'Foam,' or 'Gin' -> 'Real Me' -> 'Gin' of
: 12/29/95, or practically all Scarlet->Fire's and Help->Slip's etc.).
: The Grateful Dead were (and ARE.. IT LIVES) the Masters of the
: Profound Segue.
Come on Charlie...you can't call Scarlet/Fire or Help/Slip/FT
morphs...that is like saying Mike's/H2O/WG is a magical segue (well, it
is these days) but the point is they are CALCULATED, denying
improvisation. I'll give you the 12.29 Gin though...that was amazing.
: "Hose" to me is a word that should be reserved for INTENSELY thrilling
: & passionate improvisational events, and not for the Same Old Kickass
: Jam Segments. If someone tells me they were "hosed" by a given
: 'Antelope' or 'Chalk Dust' or 'Possum,' I'll raise my eyebrows and
: smile. But check out the version. "Hose" to me isn't merely
: ass-kicking. IT is Earth-shaking and Revelatory. IT is of Profound
: Significance in Phishtory; an event not merely "special" but worthy
: of the highest esteem.
Moments of true improvisation lurk in the middle of those jams that are
completely unique...for example, Reba usually goes in the same direction,
as does Divided, Julius, the songs you listed above and countless others.
BUT, take that 11.26 Bowie, or FLeezer, or some of those Melts that just
make you soul ache...those are true channeling, all four guys on the same
vibe being possessed by an idea that may not even be musical, but turning
it into an one time only aural atmosphere.
: And I think most of the people taking the time to read this message
: know what A Special Event is when they Hear IT, no matter how much or
: how little Phish (or Dead, or Whatever) they have heard. Usually the
Not to sound cocky, but I have been to literally hundreds of
Phish/Dead/other "jam bands" shows...and these moments have occurred
maybe 15 times. This is because that even for Phish (the most open to
cosmic tones IMO) it is difficult to sidestep all those hours trying to
learn Led Zep by ear (playing the record ad nauseum) and practicing
scales and theory and technique. To truly become a medium takes years of
practice...which sometimes doesn't even involve music. Phish could evolve
to the point where they hit IT every night, but they won't, because the
fans wouldn't put up with it. Imagine hearing 30-45 mins of STTA type
improvisations every night for a whole tour...you and I would love it,
but the overwhelming majority just wouldn't stand for it...same with
Drums/Space for the Dead. I would have loved a whole second set of it,
but 9 out of 10 people would abhor it. That's where jazz comes in hand:)
only thing that's a matter of debate is HOW amazing and magical IT
: was. ("Hey man, I was there and it was much better for me than it is
: for you on tape, no matter how insightful your imagination is!" ;)
See Chris Wood's essay "Get Real" in the new MMW mailer.
: Everyone knows instinctively that The Hose Jam was powerfully moving
: in a spiritually profound way, whether they prefer to use the word
: "spiritual," or something less prickly (but lame) like "emotional" or
: "groovy." Or unless they weren't listening, in my opinion. =^] I am
: "Hosed" whenever I encounter the aforementioned sort of JAM, and have
: the good fortune to share in its Majesty with the band.
Yes, but you're listening so hard you may be hearing things that aren't
there. The hose is spiritual...it gives you goosebumps and makes you
smile, you may be hosed a bit, but once again, the hose is not
necessarily true improvisation.
: Tunes/Songs, in order to be "tunes" or "songs," follow a Plan: a
: structure that controls and holds the melody and rhythm, the measures
: and the lyrics. This structure is objectively based (we can
exactly, but so does much, if not all "improvisation" these bands perform.
: intersubjectively communicate about it as "fact" and "truth" and
: symbolize it), but our appreciation of its merits is obviously
: subjective. Hose to me, though, necessarily loses the structure of
: the tune -- at **LEAST** in the sense that the jam or composition has
: created repercussions more significant than it ever had before, within
: the confines of the Typical DWD Jam Segment Structure, or Typical FOTM
: Jam Segment Structure, or what have you. Hose is something that we
: can experience and communciate about intersubjectively; given the
: trinity of band, audience and the music, we have to experience IT
: together as One. To communicate about IT is mysteriously complex in
: light of our subjective experiences, but yet IT may be communicated
: merely with a knowing Smile to a fellow brother or sister. Have you
: ever seen that Gleam in the eyes of people who have experienced Joy?
: Some truly blessed folks have that Gleam all the time.
a bit metaphysical...but there is no unity between band and crowd needed
for improvisation. It comes from that dark part of your soul right around
your sternum, and those listening aren't supposed to hear what you hear,
but interpret it in their own way. Communication is nice, but not necessary.
: Where the comfortable confines of a Song are transcended or abandoned,
: and mysteriously thrilling improvisation seizes the moment, with The
: Spirit we soar and are towed...
: I hope that all of you who have read this far will continue to seek,
: for it is only by seeking that you will find, and experience, IT.
A difficult task. For those truly interested, go buy _Thinking in Jazz_
by Paul Berliner. Cover to cover it has "all the (improvisational)
knowledge inherent in the universe. Or go listen to some Eric
Dolphy/Ornette Coleman/John Zorn/or some of Coltrane's and Miles' later work.
: charlie dirksen
For all the shit myself and others give him, he may occasionally be on to
something. But Charlie...if you are being totally sincere, abandon Phish
and everything associated with it for a few months. Explore the outer
limits of music (which Phish only has brief glimpses of). I guarantee it
will be as revelational as going from Top 40 to Phish.
--
Ever expanding,
Brian
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian J. Daignault * bdai...@oswego.edu * http://www.oswego.edu/~bdaignau
"In music the only thing that matters is whether you feel it or not" -Ornette
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
xxxxxxxxx
xBELIEVEx
xxxxxxxxx
Casey Logan
First of all, Charlie this was an incredible post. I suppose sometimes you
just have to sift through the tickle and scribble posts and find something
that is truly a damn good post. Shit, I felt like grading this thing.
Anyway, as any good post does, when I read this I immediately felt like
responding, both in agreement and disagreement. I'm sure you would agree
(and most people who truly understand what the term "hose" means) that the
hose is a completely independent emotion. I guess my definition of hose is
very, very general, but also specific. I'll try to point it out through
some of the things you have said:
> IT penetrates the fiber of our existence and gloriously uplifts,
> strengthens and fulfills us. Many of us, anyway -- although I believe
> that everyone can experience IT.
I think so too. As for that first sentence -- you are exactly right. The
hose is not just the music (not just you sitting in front of a band
watching them play a song), but is an experience. I grasp for a comparison
and I guess the only thing I can come up with is if you have ever
witnessed first hand an act of such selflessness, such good will that it
completely fills you, a non participant, with an ecstatic feeling. There
you are, just a bystander, but emotionally you feel tied into the entire
situation for some reason. I suppose that is the only thing I can come up
with that compares. When you say that it is transcendental, I think it is
difficult to find a better word. Yes! What you are witnessing no longer is
just something before you, but is something that becomes you and you also
become. I am no philosophical guy -- usually very down to earth -- but
damn't if I can't help but try and describe this feeling. I'll move on:
> I think it is fair to suggest that gloriously composed
> and passionately performed classical music has this Power, too. And
> it should go without saying that some bands convey IT more often than
> others, though.. :)
I agree here also, but if you are saying what I think you're saying (the
music does not have to be improvisational to experience the hose) then the
next part confuses me a little:
> I reserve the use of "Hose" to describe improvisation when I get the
> impression that the band, audience and music have gelled into a triune
> Being of world-transcending blessedness. Jams that jettison the soul
> skyward in a manner that is mystically astray from the expected and
> typical course, but which *WORK* and weave tapestries of enchanting,
> bissful melodies around our souls.
<snip>
> For example, if, suddenly, in 'Bathtub Gin' (see 8/13/93 -- my first
> experience of Phish Hose), the jam segues from being a typical
> Gin-sortof jam into a weekapaugian groove, this is Hose. In
> 'Antelope,' it wouldn't be an 'Antelope' if the jam didn't kick your
> ass and follow a fast-paced, tear-it-up style. THIS jamming isn't
> "Hose," since it would be akin to a normal kickass Antelope; that is,
> what you'd _reasonably_ expect to hear within the confines of The Song
Well, like I said, I think each person who knows what the hose is is going
to have a different impression (if it was the same impression, I don't
think it would be a) as special b) the hose, but I digress). This is where
my idea of it goes somewhere else. You see, I have found that the hose is
truly rare for me. Now to say this right out, I have only seen 12 shows,
so I don't know if I should even expect more from that, but I feel that I
have felt the hose first hand only once. Don't get me wrong -- none of the
12 I have seen did I dislike. In fact, if there were ever an easy phish
fan it is me. They could get on stage sing Amazing Grace, Ragtime Gal and
then leave and I would call it a good show. Well, maybe not that easy. But
anyway, the only time I have ever felt the hose is this last summer at red
rocks, first night during Slave. Explaining this occurrence helps me
better explain what I deem the hose to be.
There was a point in this song where I changed -- not permanently, not
physically or necessarily mentally, but still I changed -- like my
perception of things. Now, I have never been on anything at a phish
concert, so this was not induced by anthing. What I felt like was the
music was absolutely perfect with how I was feeling, where I was at, and
where those surrounding me were at. What I am trying to say is, this was
an experience where everything around me fit together -- made sense. For
awhile I closed my eyes, and when I opened them it really felt like
nothing changed. Everything was in sinc -- no distractions, just this
great vibe. I remember my best friend asking me what my highlight was,
after the show, and being surprised when I said Slave, and I told him I
really couldn't explain, but I just loved that moment.
I really can't get any further into it, because it is hard for me to
describe. I have never felt like that since -- I have seen seven shows
since, all of which I thought were excellent. I don't find it
dissapointing that I haven't relived that, just a fact. The closest I came
was probably the Omaha Hood, a tremendous version (although I haven't
heard it since the show -- the tapes elude me) really a great version --
so much positive energy and fun going on. The music was there, but I
didn't feel the connection and I think it had a lot to do with the fact
that I didn't think everything around me was in sinc. Not everything fit.
Of course, this wasn't a moment of emptiness then -- just looking back and
wondering why, it seems that that was it. It was, though, my greatest
experience of my 3 show fall tour (although the KC YEM was terrific -- one
I still think goes up there with 12/9/95).
> "Hose" to me is a word that should be reserved for INTENSELY thrilling
> & passionate improvisational events, and not for the Same Old Kickass
> Jam Segments. If someone tells me they were "hosed" by a given
> 'Antelope' or 'Chalk Dust' or 'Possum,' I'll raise my eyebrows and
> smile.
I'm glad you said "to me." I too would deem a Chalkdust or Suzy or other
good, but standard (I DO NOT mean to demean the songs by using that word,
which coincidentally I hate). Still, I think you can get the hose from
lesser improvisational moments (i.e. a Hood that is damn good, but doesn't
take an entirely different sound in the jam sequence) and even composed
music, which you mentioned earlier. Some would probably fit Slave in this
category. Guyute is probably my favorite Phish song, completely composed,
and I have seen it twice -- red rocks (which I found to me a less than
good version) and Omaha, which I loved. Neither time did I feel the hose,
but I really think I could get some in this song, albeit for a short
moment since things seems to move somewhat quickly in this wonderfully
composed piece (throw me in the "Don't change a damn thing to Guyute"
list). Who knows?
> To communicate about IT is mysteriously complex in
> light of our subjective experiences, but yet IT may be communicated
> merely with a knowing Smile to a fellow brother or sister. Have you
I think I have proved this by my attempt at explaining :) But I think you
have hit it right. I remember that great look on the guy's face who sat
next to me that first night at red rocks and when reba ended turned to me
with this look of confusion/joy and asked "Was that all reba?"
IMO, the song was great, no hose, but great -- but he obviously
experienced something else and simply being a small part of his
experience, of seeing his face and assuring him that it was in fact all
reba, was a tremendous feeling in itself.
> I hope that all of you who have read this far will continue to seek,
> for it is only by seeking that you will find, and experience, IT.
Damn right.
Whew. Again, great post charlie -- best on here in awhile. Now I am
hungry. I think I'll go grab a sandwich. And listen to Slave.
Casey
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
424B Schurz Hall "The sun was like a huge fifty-cent
904 So. College Ave. piece that someone had poured kerosene on
Columbia, MO and then lit with a match and said,
65201 'Here, hold this while I go get a news-
paper,' and put the coin in my hand, but
c69...@showme.missouri.edu never came back."
-- Richard Brautigan
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Elizabeth Southard
By now I think we've all seen the post about Hose and Improv that Charlie has put out to
numerous discussion lists, so I will not bother to reprint it, but there are a few
things I wanted to add.
While I completely agree with Charlie's perspective of Hose, when the music just takes
off from its original source and flys, it can be truly a mystical experience. However,
I disagree that Hose only occurs during truly monumental jams. I believe Hose is also a
subjective experience, where by one person will feel completely soaking wet from being
seriously Hosed, and the person next to them can remain entirely dry. Being Hosed can
only occur if one is open to the expereince. I think that at most of the 20+ Phish
shows I've seen I've been given a good douse of warm wet Phish. From what interviews
I've read regarding the whole Hose thing I think that Trey and the boys strive to be
that channel, to be the hose, at each and every show. Now whether or not they actually
do it, and make it monumental is a different story, but they are still being that
channel. Just watch Trey at some shows, just rocking back and forth, back and forth,
back and forth. Ego is GONE! He is Hose. Hose is the band not the music. And if you
are open to the "mystical" experience of being washed away by the music we can all
experience Hose, at any time, during any show.
For instance, at Mann 1995, second set opener AZT>Bowie. I was completely lost,
estatic, sweat pouring from my body (self induced or a result of the hose, I don't know)
and every limb just dancing madly. It was wonderful. A deeply intense experience.
HOwever, not everyone felt the same way as I did after the show. Hose is subjective.
And just a week earlier all my friends were saying how the Nissan Pavillion show was
just the shit, and yeah, I thought it was good, but I didn't have the same expereice
that I did at the Mann.
One thing I do think is almost entirely necessary for being Hosed is DANCING!!!!
For all you kids out there who just stand there or sit there, take a hint man, the
music is much better when you are dancing! When you allow your whole body to absorb the
music, and then allow it to put it back out there through your own movement. In
essence, as a dancer you are also helping to channel the music...its all connected man.
We can all experience Hose at anytime, at anyplace...if we just surrender to its
flow!
Peace,
Lizard
Martin Acaster
Mann Bowie was super hose for me too.........it was incredible.....the
whole show really...the lifeboy tease in the suzie...chills....soaking
wet....hahahhahaaaaaaaaaa
--
"leave the door open but nail the rose to the desk"
CBertolet
Brian Daignault wrote:
>>>No, not everyone can experience it. Only about 7% of the population
truly get it.>>>
Where did you get this figure? I don't doubt its accuracy.... I would've
thought it was even smaller. But I think the number is so small because
most people don't have practiced ears. They listen to shit. They haven't
been nourished with inspired improvisation (which is an acquired taste
similar to spinach and fine cigars=).
I think what Charlie is saying, though, is that if anyone immerses oneself
in the experience of hearing improvisational music, anyone is capable of
"getting it." I agree with him on this point. Phishheads and jazz fans
are no smarter than the rest of the world, just luckier. IT just comes
easier for some than others.
>>>What Santana is referring to is the way he can modally
solo over basic and static chord changes his band performs (see Allmans,
the Dead, moe and millions of others). Inspiring, often beautiful, but no
major task to perform or receive.>>>
Santana was referring much more to the feeling of having the music and the
audience play his instrument for him, via a conduit which he chose to name
"the hose." And while "modal" solos are one significant tool in Santana's
and Trey's bag of tricks, they are by no means the only tools they use to
improvise. If you really believe that, you're not listening.
>>>Improvisational music is NOT what those bands play (see above).>>>
[Allmans, Phish, moe., Santana, etc.]
I disagree. Vehemently. They do not play *pure* improvisation, a la
STTA. True. But you're confusing improvisation with lack of structure.
By definition, improvisation is the expression of any artistic notion
(spoken, sung, played), not previously composed. And just because Trey
solos modally over a pre-formulated chord progression doesn't mean he's
not improvising. He is most certainly improvising, and that makes his
music improvisational.
Improv. runs the gamut from classical (which, as you noted, leaves *no*
room for improvisation unless you're David Helfgott =) to pure improv like
free-form jazz. But given that, more often than not, Phish's four members
are departing from structure during a jam segment, they are more
improvisational than many musicians who are labelled jazz (i.e. big band
or acid jazz).
>>>legions of Dead fans will boast about how much they dig
"improvisational music", but play them Ornette Coleman's "Free Jazz", and
they won't last a minute. STTA is a good example as well. Legions of Phish
fans who just love improvisation go out and buy this disc because
Trey and Fish are on it, only to bitch on the net for weeks about how much
it sucked.>>>
Yes. I believe that what really draws most ears to Phish is
tension-and-release. The tension is built when jams leave the song
structure and reach for atonal, obliquely rhythmic, jazz-like places. The
release comes when all at once it's DWD or Antelope or Split Open again,
and that's very different than jazz. Jazz isn't built around
tension-and-release, it's built around roaming in the mind and heart
without the constraints of structure. And for an uneducated palate/ear,
that just sounds like tension.
>>>there is no unity between band and crowd needed
for improvisation. It comes from that dark part of your soul right around
your sternum and those listening aren't supposed to hear what you hear,
but interpret it in their own way. Communication is nice, but not
necessary.>>>
Agreed. I know that I have been what I would call hosed during a jam that
not many others felt. But I think Charlie's interpretation of the term as
Santana coined it requires the audience as a collective to feed back the
music's energy to the musicians. I've seen this happen in rapturous
silence or thundering cheers.
No offense intended, Brian, but you are what some might call a jazz snob.
Trey would tell you himself that he's not a jazz musician, but I think
he'd also insist that what he does is - or at least includes in fat,
drippy, gooey gobs - improvisation.
*** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***
"Music is well said to be the speech of angels; in fact, nothing among the utterances known to man is felt to be so divine. It brings us nearer to the infinite" - Thomas Carlyle *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***
*chris bertolet*
Charles Dirksen
Matthew Hoffman (go...@email.unc.edu) wrote:
: I agree with most of what charlie stated in his post. The one thing that
I'm fairly certain that the Gin -> Yamar _SEGUE_ was certainly not
planned. It isn't pretty enough! :) I'm similarly fairly certain,
however, that Phish planned to play Yamar after closing Gin... the _segue_
wasn't planned, though, I'd bet.
charlie
Charles Dirksen
Brian Joshua Daignault (bdai...@news.oswego.edu) wrote:
: Lots of big words and heavy ideas Charlie.
My "bad," Herr Daignault. ;)
: of the iceberg. What Santana is referring to is the way he can modally
: solo over basic and static chord changes his band performs (see Allmans,
: the Dead, moe and millions of others). Inspiring, often beautiful, but no
: major task to perform or receive.
Are you being serious? Maybe you should re-read that interview. That's
not what Carlos was saying at all. Carlos was basically Preaching.
Carlos was talking about a Spirit. A Force. A *?* power that the band
can tap in to with the proper mindset. You speak of mere jamming.
And most people can jam. (most lack the appreciation of Spirit and Being,
and cannot tap into IT, however)
: Improvisational music is NOT what those bands play (see above). The
: closest any com is the Dead doing "Space", and even that is contrived;
I think that based on the definition of "improvisation," that you are
clearly wrong. Obviously the Dead improvises in "Space," and equally as
obviously, there are some aspects that are "contrived." The structure is
always drums->space after all, right? And Space usually has certain types
of sounds. But to say that "Space" is the only "improvisation" that the
Dead have performed seems magnificently odd. Jamming and improvisation
are two entirely different things, and you seem to be trying to define
"improvisation" in a new way.
: meaning to say that for the most part it was just various band members
: seeing what kinds of noises they could get from their processors.
: Classical music is entirely absent of anything hose-like. Composed around
: a theme that constantly repeats (with modulations), there is no
: improvisation or real feeling portrayed by the musicians...it is kind of
: like saying that someone doing an algebraic equation in front of the
: class is turning on the hose. "IT" as you call it cannot exist on a
: conscious level of the musician...and classical music is blatantly
: conscious (see music stand)
I'd like to agree with you, but I think that even complex, composed music
may be performed so expertly and passionately that the people playing the
music play in an almost "unconscious" fashion. "Rift" is a song that I
bet Phish could play without thinking. And it is composed.
: This may be what you call the hose, but it is far from true
: improvisation...very common themes, just not to Phish. They knew what
: they were doing, the patterns were calculated, and as soon as they
: moderated them, the jam more or less fell apart. Remember, 93% of people
: cannot even pick up on true improvisatory music...so when something is
: this universally liked, it is not because it is cosmic in its reaches and
: powerful in such an esoteric way that it can truly bend your mind and soul.
Just out of curiosity, where do you get the 93% figure? FWIW, I'm tempted
to agree with you that the 12/9/95 Albany YEM is an example of excellent
Phish jamming. But to deny the improvisational aspects of that jam seems
rather silly. Not only is that jam different than every other YEM jam
performed, but it also has a "silent jam" in it, and the structure of the
typical version of YEM was transcended. Altered. Improvised upon. It
wasn't merely a "jammed out" version of YEM like 12/31/93 or 10/31/96 or
PLENTY of other YEMs (most of them). It was a remarkably unusual version,
and the melodious groove of the jamming, especially trey's rather
repetitive but auricularly pleasing themes, certainly isn't par for a YEM
course. The 12/9/95 YEM is akin in majesty to a 21 yr old golfer heading
into the final round of the Masters with a nine stroke lead.
To suggest that this 12/9/95 YEM is merely a great YEM jam doesn't do it
Justice, in my opinion. Is it "Hose"? Well.. sure sounds like it to my
ears. And from what I've gathered, the band was, uh, pleased with that
version.. not to mention the audience.. and Pleased in an unduly
spectacular, bewilderingly blessed fashion.
: Bullshit...that is not a very popular Bowie...there is a good deal of
: true improvisation there, but you and I know that the vast majority of
: the audience was sitting there saying "Man, is this still the same song?
: When are they going to play something else?" (see also FLeezer)
Oh absolutely! But I never meant to suggest that the ENTIRE audience had
to experience IT in order for a jam to be Hose. And why would I ? That
would be ridiculous and impossible, as you know. I'm actually surprised
that you would attribute this to me.
: Mmm....I would have to disagree, in that the Dead were MODAL improvisers,
: and not extremely great ones at it either. Very important to note this,
: because legions of Dead fans will boast about how much they dig
: "improvisational music", but play them Ornette Coleman's "Free Jazz", and
: they won't last a minute. STTA is a good example as well. Legions of
Ornette Coleman's "Free Jazz" is obviously straight-up improvisation, but
for you to even beg the comparison between it and the Grateful Dead seems,
well, silly. They are entirely different musical expressions. Surely you
know that non-jazz bands can improvise? I don't understand why you'd even
mention Ornette's Free Jazz and the Grateful Dead at the same time. You
might as well have thrown in John Cage or Sid Vicious. It isn't fair to
compare them.
: Come on Charlie...you can't call Scarlet/Fire or Help/Slip/FT
: morphs...that is like saying Mike's/H2O/WG is a magical segue (well, it
: is these days) but the point is they are CALCULATED, denying
: improvisation. I'll give you the 12.29 Gin though...that was amazing.
Oh I see. You are defining "improvisation" in its truest form, which you
know is colloquially and definitively unjustified. Phish and Dead rarely
improvise along the lines of Ornette Coleman, of course. But simply
jamming out a version of chalk dust, and seguing from DWD into Lucy with a
Lumpy Head, are not the same sort of musical tasks. A band can still
"improvise" even if they know that, eventually, they'll have to start
playing FOTM straightforwardly.
: Moments of true improvisation lurk in the middle of those jams that are
: completely unique...for example, Reba usually goes in the same direction,
: as does Divided, Julius, the songs you listed above and countless others.
: BUT, take that 11.26 Bowie, or FLeezer, or some of those Melts that just
: make you soul ache...those are true channeling, all four guys on the same
: vibe being possessed by an idea that may not even be musical, but turning
: it into an one time only aural atmosphere.
Absolutely agreed. But still, even in that FLeezer and that Bowie, the
band still new that eventually they'd have to Return from the Other, as it
were. They had to "bring it back." You seem to be suggesting that
improvisation has to be its purest form to be "improvisation," and
frankly, that's asking too much, imo. The verb "to improvise" can include
the scarlet->fire segue for many versions (though perhaps not all, I'd
grant you this). And Phish "improvises" when it transcends the typical
structure of a tune, even when the band members know that, ultimately,
they'll have to close out the YEM and head into a vocal jam as they've
usually done in the past (see 12/9/95).
: practice...which sometimes doesn't even involve music. Phish could evolve
: to the point where they hit IT every night, but they won't, because the
Do you think so? Maybe I'm not as idealistic as I thought! :)
: fans wouldn't put up with it. Imagine hearing 30-45 mins of STTA type
: improvisations every night for a whole tour...you and I would love it,
: but the overwhelming majority just wouldn't stand for it...same with
: Drums/Space for the Dead. I would have loved a whole second set of it,
: but 9 out of 10 people would abhor it. That's where jazz comes in hand:)
Well.. you know that I agree with you about this. I think the second STTA
show in particular is magnificent, btw. But I think that it doesn't
require an entire audience to be attuned to IT for IT to happen.. for
band, audience and music to be mysteriously flowing along, towed by some
cosmic Force. Some people, probably few, as you suggest, will get IT, and
many if not most won't, but IT, I imagine, doesn't care what any of us
thinks about IT. :) IT just is.
: Yes, but you're listening so hard you may be hearing things that aren't
: there. The hose is spiritual...it gives you goosebumps and makes you
: smile, you may be hosed a bit, but once again, the hose is not
: necessarily true improvisation.
A-ha!! "True improvisation." Ok.. (on the same page, Brian.. took me
awhile admittedly) I certainly agree with you about that. But I don't
think it is fair to expect "true improvisation" from Phish or any other
band on most nights. I think "improvisation" is mighty fine, though, and
Phish usually, though not always, provides that (would you say that MMW
provides mere "improvisation" with every show? I'd say "Yes.")
: exactly, but so does much, if not all "improvisation" these bands perform.
? But improvisation isn't, by definition, fully structured. The
structure is at least abandoned to a degree sufficient to warrant labeling
the event "improvisation." For example, Dave Brubeck improvises all the
god time time, but he still often sticks within a certain structure..
there's a certain time sig, for example.. he might stay in a certain key..
don't you see? This might not be "true improvisation," but it is
"improvisation" all the same. The scarlet->fire segue is not "composed."
I've never heard the same scarlet->fire twice, although I've heard plenty
that are very, very similar. There is still "improvisation" going on. It
just isn't "true," as you call it.
: a bit metaphysical...but there is no unity between band and crowd needed
: for improvisation. It comes from that dark part of your soul right around
: your sternum, and those listening aren't supposed to hear what you hear,
: but interpret it in their own way. Communication is nice, but not necessary.
There has to be communication on some level, or "IT" couldn't be
communicable. But I agree that interpretation of IT is wrought with
illogic and subjectivism and aporias. I think IT wants to keep that way,
and will.. ;) Certainly makes IT more interesting.
: A difficult task. For those truly interested, go buy _Thinking in Jazz_
: by Paul Berliner. Cover to cover it has "all the (improvisational)
: knowledge inherent in the universe. Or go listen to some Eric
: Dolphy/Ornette Coleman/John Zorn/or some of Coltrane's and Miles' later work.
Just out of curiosity, was it Paul Berliner who gave you the illusion that
improvisation had to be "true improvisation" to BE "improvisation"?
Sounds like a groundless power move on Paul's part. :) Improvisation has
never meant one thing to all people, and never will it so mean.
: For all the shit myself and others give him, he may occasionally be on to
: something. But Charlie...if you are being totally sincere, abandon Phish
: and everything associated with it for a few months. Explore the outer
: limits of music (which Phish only has brief glimpses of). I guarantee it
: will be as revelational as going from Top 40 to Phish.
Thanks, Brian, but I'm incredulous as to your profound ignorance of my
musical background. I don't listen to Phish even 1/20th of the time most
people on this list seem to think that I do. I don't know whether to be
insulted or amused by your self-righteousness. I will give you the
benefit of the doubt, though, and simply say "Ok, Brian. Teach me to be a
jazz snob, because I'm admittedly ignorant about jazz. Teach all of us."
charlie "listening to Ornette Coleman" dirksen
Kim Hannula
Charlie Dirksen wrote:
|I still consider "IT" or "Hose" a concept of transcendent, mystical
|proportions, even though I realize that some people use the term
|loosely. IT is the fruit of the communication of musical genius and
|being with an Other; with Love, with Life, with Being Itself. The
|apotheosis of humanity through music, IT penetrates the fiber of our
|existence and gloriously uplifts, strengthens and fulfills us. Many
|of us, anyway -- although I believe that everyone can experience IT.
First of all -- I love this description of IT. Yes. This is what I'm
experiencing when I pathetically say I'm "grooving out."
|I reserve the use of "Hose" to describe improvisation when I get the
|impression that the band, audience and music have gelled into a triune
|Being of world-transcending blessedness. Jams that jettison the soul
|skyward in a manner that is mystically astray from the expected and
|typical course, but which *WORK* and weave tapestries of enchanting,
|bissful melodies around our souls
Here's a question.. is the state of being "mystically astray from the
expected and typical course" (what might be called "improvisation" if we
were to get more technical and less mystical about it) the Hose ITself, or
is it just the way the Hose is best manifested by Phish or the Dead? Can
you have that mystical state, music as connection to the Other or the Tao
or the Mysterious Something or whatever you want to call it, without
improvisation? (And is that where the gloriously moving classical music,
which you frequently mention in passing in these discussions, fits into
IT?)
And what about the experience of "getting IT"? You know the feeling -- one
moment you're dancing away to a band you think is kinda fun, and suddenly
the universe seems to have added a dimension or two (and you are sober as
you have ever been, so it isn't one of those chemical dimensions) and you
(the individual) don't exist as a separate entity anymore -- and then you
come to and there's drool running down your face. (But you don't feel too
silly, cause the guitar player's drooling too.) And you get this sudden
nearly uncontrollable urge to go to the next show, whether or not it really
makes sense to at all, and you want to listen to tapes, cause you want to
go to That Place again. But it's not necessarily a jam segment that's
never been played that way before that triggers Getting IT. Maybe it's the
transition from the quiet happy beginning part of Antelope to the
rocking-out pre-rye rye rocco part. Maybe it's those three simple but
thrilling chords of Harry Hood. Maybe it's the composed part of YEM.
Maybe it's that riff in Lizards. (Maybe it's Bouncing ;-) Those things
aren't the Hose as you define it (and I'd agree). But they can certainly
be windows into Something Else.
Kim
Brad
>
> Are you being serious? Maybe you should re-read that interview. That's
> not what Carlos was saying at all.
>
> I think that based on the definition of "improvisation," that you are
> clearly wrong.
> Just out of curiosity, where do you get the 93% figure?
> would be ridiculous and impossible, as you know. I'm actually surprised
> that you would attribute this to me.
>
> Ornette Coleman's "Free Jazz" is obviously straight-up improvisation, but
> for you to even beg the comparison between it and the Grateful Dead seems,
> well, silly.
> Surely you know that non-jazz bands can improvise? I don't understand
>why you'd even mention Ornette's Free Jazz and the Grateful Dead
> Oh I see. You are defining "improvisation" in its truest form, which you
> know is colloquially and definitively unjustified.
************************************
*
*
> playing FOTM straightforwardly. *
> *
*
************************************
> improvisation has to be its purest form to be "improvisation," and
> frankly, that's asking too much, imo.
>
> Do you think so?
>
> don't you see?
>
> Thanks, Brian, but I'm incredulous as to your profound ignorance of my
> musical background.
> I don't know whether to be
> insulted or amused by your self-righteousness.
> charlie "listening to Ornette Coleman" dirksen
Thank god the newsgroup is back to normal. glad to see you are back
charlie, we missed you :)
brad
D4sha
Man, y'all write some long-ass posts!
Phish is what it is. That's it.
Does it matter if they conform to anyones preconcieved notion of
"improvisation"?
They play what they feel at any given moment.
Sometimes it remains within the given framework of a song
structure...sometimes it doesn't.
It is the beauty of the moment that makes it special.
They are sharing that moment with you.
If you listen to any of John Coltrane's mid '60's work, I doubt you'll
hear any chord changes in there, but it's still amazing, intensely
personal stuff. Senselessness is a structured "song", but still contains
pure improvisation.
I am what I am....does it matter?
CBertolet
d4...@aol.com wrote:
>>>Man, y'all write some long-ass posts!
Phish is what it is. That's it.>>>
I don't think anyone would disagree with that pure, logical truth. What
we're all trying to figure out via these "long-ass" posts is: what is the
thing that Phish is, which is what it is?
>>>Does it matter if they conform to anyones preconcieved notion of
"improvisation"?>>>
I don't really understand the question you're asking. What we all believe
matters is discussion about Phish and other improvisational music at a
time when there seems to be so much worthless detritus in here.
>>>They play what they feel at any given moment.
Sometimes it remains within the given framework of a song
structure...sometimes it doesn't.
It is the beauty of the moment that makes it special.
They are sharing that moment with you.>>>
If you really read Charlie's thread-starting post, you'd understand that
this is what he was saying, albeit eloquently.
>>>If you listen to any of John Coltrane's mid '60's work, I doubt you'll
hear any chord changes in there, but it's still amazing, intensely
personal stuff. Senselessness is a structured "song", but still contains
pure improvisation.>>>
Ummmmm.... I'm gonna resist the temptation to embarass you. If a thread
got under your skin so much for being purposeless, then why respond to it?
>>>I am what I am....does it matter? >>>
It matters to you and presumably those who care about you. And do you
know who you are, anyway? I'm not entirely sure about myself.
D4sha
>Ummmmm.... I'm gonna resist the temptation to embarass you. If a thread
got under your skin so much for being purposeless, then why respond to
it?<
so someone would reply...I'm really lonely. :)
I didn't intend to imply the thread was purposeless. I was merely trying
to express the idea that the term "improvisation" is a wide-ranging one
that means many things to many people. I would describe Ornette Coleman's
music as improvisational, as I would some of Phish's...but, they are
totally different from one another.
Phish means different things to different people. IMHO, they are one of
the greatest musical ensembles ever to vibrate air on this planet. When
"IT" happens, which may be rarely, each of them become merely a conduit
for something much bigger. They are "played" as they play their
instruments. I don't think I would describe Ornette in this way...although
I certainly would Coltrane. Most jazz musicians have a "technical"
harmonic knowledge on which their improvisations are based and I have no
doubt that Phish contains a similar knowledge within each of them (some
more than others...), but that is not the foundation for THEIR
improvisations.
OK-now I'm making a "long-ass post." Sorry.
happiness, D4
(Actually, the Coltrane song I meant was "Selflessness".)
CBertolet
D4sha wrote:
>>>
>Ummmmm.... I'm gonna resist the temptation to embarass you. If a thread
got under your skin so much for being purposeless, then why respond to
it?<
so someone would reply...I'm really lonely. :)
I didn't intend to imply the thread was purposeless. I was merely trying
to express the idea that the term "improvisation" is a wide-ranging one
that means many things to many people. I would describe Ornette Coleman's
music as improvisational, as I would some of Phish's...but, they are
totally different from one another. >>>
OK. Sure.
>>>Phish means different things to different people. IMHO, they are one of
the greatest musical ensembles ever to vibrate air on this planet. When
"IT" happens, which may be rarely, each of them become merely a conduit
for something much bigger. They are "played" as they play their
instruments. I don't think I would describe Ornette in this way...although
I certainly would Coltrane.>>>
I would describe any "successful" improvisational music this way. Not
that I've taken a survey, but I'd bet that almost any transcendant
improvisation artists, whether actors, musicians, painters or whatever,
would agree that they are just channelers for whatever the Great Creator
wants to speak through them.
As a creative writer, I've only experienced this in brief and infrequent
bursts. I'm not *nearly* as strong a writer as Trey (for example) is a
guitar player, but I'm working on it.
>>> Most jazz musicians have a "technical"
harmonic knowledge on which their improvisations are based and I have no
doubt that Phish contains a similar knowledge within each of them (some
more than others...), but that is not the foundation for THEIR
improvisations.>>>
You're right in a sense, I think. The rules, like fretting, arpeggios,
fifths and thirds, time sigs, etc., are just tools. In the midst of true
hose-like jamming, all that stuff is really at an unconscious level.
Someone like Coleman, 'Trane, or Trey aren't thinking in those terms when
they're in the zone. Same with writing. In the middle of a scene, if you
question the structure of the entire piece as it pertains to the moment,
the moment is lost.
>>>OK-now I'm making a "long-ass post." Sorry.
happiness, D4
(Actually, the Coltrane song I meant was "Selflessness".)>>>
That's what I thought....didn't want to make a big deal out of it. =)
Charles Dirksen
D4sha (d4...@aol.com) wrote:
: Man, y'all write some long-ass posts!
Is a long-ass post longer than a long-dick post?
: Phish is what it is. That's it.
Phish is a band, you know, a "band" like.. like Van Halen.
: Does it matter if they conform to anyones preconcieved notion of
: "improvisation"?
Not in the least. Does this mean we shouldn't discuss our interpretations
of the music, in your opinion, because It's All Hood ? Does it matter
that I'm procrastinating outlining coroporations. or that I have a
preconceived notion of what "ignorance" means?
: They play what they feel at any given moment.
That's not true. Unless you mean to say, simply, that they play whatever
they are playing at the time that they play it. Which would be true,
wiiise one. I assure you, that if they played whatever they felt at any
given moment, there'd probably be one hell of a lot more improvisation in
the midst of composed segments of songs.
: Sometimes it remains within the given framework of a song
: structure...sometimes it doesn't.
Yes, well. Sometimes I feel like a nut, and sometimes I don't.
: It is the beauty of the moment that makes it special.
: They are sharing that moment with you.
;^[
"I wondered lonely as a cloud, that floats on high o'er vales and
hills..."
: If you listen to any of John Coltrane's mid '60's work, I doubt you'll
: hear any chord changes in there, but it's still amazing, intensely
: personal stuff. Senselessness is a structured "song", but still contains
: pure improvisation.
Yes. Yes it is. And...?
: I am what I am....does it matter?
Wash Uffizi, Drive Me To Firenzi.
two cents
charlie
|Spider Gecko|
| Brian Joshua Daignault (bdai...@news.oswego.edu) wrote:
| : meaning to say that for the most part it was just various band members
| : seeing what kinds of noises they could get from their processors.
| : Classical music is entirely absent of anything hose-like. Composed
around
| : a theme that constantly repeats (with modulations), there is no
| : improvisation or real feeling portrayed by the musicians...it is kind
of
| : like saying that someone doing an algebraic equation in front of the
| : class is turning on the hose. "IT" as you call it cannot exist on a
| : conscious level of the musician...and classical music is blatantly
| : conscious (see music stand)
IMHO, great music does not always have to be played with "feeling." In
fact, I think that the best composition can convey more feeling than *ANY*
improvisation (not that improv is *BAD* or anything), even if it's being
played by robots. And gee-golly-gosh, you've sure mangaged to squeeze
classical into a *PRETTY* narrow definition (Composed around a theme that
constantly repeats...LOL!). BTW, the reason that classical musicians use a
music stand is due to the fact that it can be PRREEETTTTYYYYY tough to
*MEMORIZE* entire movements of symphonies. And NO, an orchestra would NOT
sound good if each player was noodling around his parts :-P
Stephen Paul White
well, i felt like throwing in my $0.00002, just because i felt like it, ya
know?
anyway "hose" for me is pretty simple. If i can close my eyes and teh
band starts playing my body (i move with no thought to what im doing or
where i am, become the music more or less) then that is the transcendent
experience am looking for. This can happen from tapes too, to a lesser
degree, but live is where it is at for the big one...
there is no objective critera that works for me. By objective criteria
Moe. would have done it, but when i saw them they didnt. (next time they
might, i dont know... im gonna reserve judgement till they plant me 6 feet
under..) I just have to listen and see if i melt into the music. Since so
much of it depends upon my openness to the experience, it is hard to say
what will do it, and what won't. i just have to keep an open mind and
listen closely.
peace,
Steve
--
***************************************************************************
That is perfect. This is perfect. Perfect comes from perfect. Take
perfect from perfect, the remainder is perfect. May peace and peace and
peace be everywhere.
***************************************************************************
spw...@artsci.wustl.edu http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~spwhite