Trills in Wagner????
J. DOWELL
I just read an article in Opera News about there being trills in the
Ride of the Walkure scene in Wagner's opera. The article said that they
are rarely done, but Jane Eageln is supposed to do them well. Are they
the same kind of trills as in Baroque??? Obviously they won't have the
same weight in the voice, but what about style???
Josh McDowell
jmcd...@nmsu.edu
http://web.nmsu.edu/~jmcdowel
%________________________________%
"What seas of horror one dives through in order to pick up these
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Jon Conrad
J. DOWELL <jmcd...@nmsu.edu> wrote:
> I just read an article in Opera News about there being trills in the
>Ride of the Walkure scene in Wagner's opera.
Yes, on the long F sharps ("Heia--") before the final high B ("ha!").
Bruennhilde has this twice, and two of the Valkyries also have to do it in
the equivalent music (Ortlinde and Gerhilde, I think) in Act III.
> The article said that they
>are rarely done, but Jane Eageln is supposed to do them well.
I can't speak as to Eaglen, but it's true that they're rarely done. Many
don't even try. Some try to get the voice rolling on a sort of shake
(without the real technique to do it) or widen the vibrato to emulate a
trill. (Not a great substitute!) Of Bruennhildes of the past, Frida
Leider on historical recordings had a true trill in this music, and more
recently I remember Rita Hunter as doing them well. As to the sister
Valkyries, they are especially well done on the Janowski WALKEURE
recording, where the two in question are Ruth Falcon and (in her record
debut) Cheryl Studer.
>Are they
>the same kind of trills as in Baroque??? Obviously they won't have the
>same weight in the voice, but what about style???
It's not so obvious to me that the weight of voice is different -- it
might be, but not necessarily. A full-bodied but unforced, unpushed voice
is welcome to me in both periods. Anyway, yes, the definition of the
trill is the same in both: an unmeasured alternation between the main note
and the note a (half or whole, depending on context) step above.
There are stylistic differences, I guess: it's most common in Baroque
music to start on the upper note, where in the 19th century the main-note
start is usual. And Wagner will write out a concluding turn (when he
wants one) in small notes, where one usually supplies that on one's own in
the earlier period. But the execution of the trill is not different.
These are not the only trills in Wagner: other examples are two by Eva in
MEISTERSINGER, more for Bruennhilde in SIEGFRIED, and I'm trying to recall
if Isolde has any. Did he ever write them for men, I wonder?
Wagner also used other traditional "graces" in his music. He was almost
addicted to the turn or gruppetto, though more in the form traditionally
called "inverted," and the symbol for that is found in many of his scores
in both vocal and instrumental parts. There are also quite a few
indications for portamento connections of notes, which tend to get ignored
these days just as much as the ones in Mozart do.
Jon Alan Conrad
Department of Music
University of Delaware
con...@udel.edu
Braden Mechley
On 7 Apr 1997, Jon Conrad wrote:
> These are not the only trills in Wagner: other examples are two by Eva in
> MEISTERSINGER, more for Bruennhilde in SIEGFRIED, and I'm trying to recall
> if Isolde has any. Did he ever write them for men, I wonder?
I don't remember any for Isolde, but I'm surprised you don't remember
Hagen's trill (for humorous effect, though most Hagens can't manage it or
don't bother) in GOETTERDAEMMERUNG.
** Braden Mechley ** ele...@u.washington.edu ** Department of Classics **
I felt so different from my own family ... I have since read
biographies of Mozart, Shakespeare, Vlad the Impaler and Mrs
Thatcher and discovered, to my relief, that they all
entertained the same scary fantasy ...: "How could a brilliant
and gorgeous person like me have been born to a stupid old
boring couple like you?"
-- Dame Edna Everage
**************************************************************************
Mike Richter
J. DOWELL wrote:
>
> I just read an article in Opera News about there being trills in the
> are rarely done, but Jane Eageln is supposed to do them well. Are they
> the same kind of trills as in Baroque??? Obviously they won't have the
> same weight in the voice, but what about style???
They are rarely done because few singers - and particularly few singers
with other than soubrette voices - know technique. As Will Crutchfield
illustrated beautifully and as my CD-ROM illustrates much less well,
every voice can trill if it is trained correctly. (Not necessarily every
singer, though.) I have many examples of trills from tenors, baritones
and basses as well as the expected sopranos, etc.
The trills are exactly the same and are produced the same way for any
voice according to those who know. You can hear that easily if you
listen. For example, Eileen Farrell had a huge dramatic soprano. She
also trills and otherwise sang Handel and Bach as well as anyone in her
day. (And Bellini and Gluck and Mozart - but why go on?) One place where
you can easily hear a perfect trill is in Act III of Siegfried, when
Svanholm wakens Farrell and she greets the sun and her nephew.
Lilli Lehmann still had a great trill (and the rest of what it took to
sing Mozart) nine years after retiring from singing. She sang Carmen and
all the Bruennhilde's (and Isolde and some hard stuff, too) along with
Valentine and other 'coloratura' music.
Mike
--
mric...@mindspring.com
Opera: http://mrichter.simplenet.com
Opera Mirror: http://www.opera.it/FreeWeb/mrichter
CD-Recordable: http://resource.simplenet.com
Parz...@webtv.net
Jon Conrad asked if Wagner wrote trills for men: Yes. Hagan, Fafner, and
Siegried all trill in the Ring.
Wer ist der Gral?
Jason Bradshaw
If i am correct, the Dover scores indicated a trill for Hagen in Act 2 of
Gotterdammerung during the scene with the Vassal's. I think there is a
trill for Brunnhilde in Act 1 of that same opera in the scene with
Waltraute.
On 7 Apr 1997, Jon Conrad wrote:
> J. DOWELL <jmcd...@nmsu.edu> wrote:
>
> > I just read an article in Opera News about there being trills in the
> >Ride of the Walkure scene in Wagner's opera.
>
> Yes, on the long F sharps ("Heia--") before the final high B ("ha!").
> Bruennhilde has this twice, and two of the Valkyries also have to do it in
> the equivalent music (Ortlinde and Gerhilde, I think) in Act III.
>
> > The article said that they
> >are rarely done, but Jane Eageln is supposed to do them well.
>
> I can't speak as to Eaglen, but it's true that they're rarely done. Many
> don't even try. Some try to get the voice rolling on a sort of shake
> (without the real technique to do it) or widen the vibrato to emulate a
> trill. (Not a great substitute!) Of Bruennhildes of the past, Frida
> Leider on historical recordings had a true trill in this music, and more
> recently I remember Rita Hunter as doing them well. As to the sister
> Valkyries, they are especially well done on the Janowski WALKEURE
> recording, where the two in question are Ruth Falcon and (in her record
> debut) Cheryl Studer.
>
> >Are they
> >the same kind of trills as in Baroque??? Obviously they won't have the
> >same weight in the voice, but what about style???
>
> It's not so obvious to me that the weight of voice is different -- it
> might be, but not necessarily. A full-bodied but unforced, unpushed voice
> is welcome to me in both periods. Anyway, yes, the definition of the
> trill is the same in both: an unmeasured alternation between the main note
> and the note a (half or whole, depending on context) step above.
>
> There are stylistic differences, I guess: it's most common in Baroque
> music to start on the upper note, where in the 19th century the main-note
> start is usual. And Wagner will write out a concluding turn (when he
> wants one) in small notes, where one usually supplies that on one's own in
> the earlier period. But the execution of the trill is not different.
>
> These are not the only trills in Wagner: other examples are two by Eva in
> MEISTERSINGER, more for Bruennhilde in SIEGFRIED, and I'm trying to recall
> if Isolde has any. Did he ever write them for men, I wonder?
>
Brian G. Moore
I found interesting the comment from someone that they could not
tell if there were trills as they could not read music. I don't read
music either, but are not trills just indicated by a "tr" notation
above the note?
As an aside, when I first looked at an orchestral score I was surprised
to see many of the timpani parts shown as extended trills. I suppose
they are when you think about it. Is it assumed that the two drums
will be set a half tone apart?
--
Brian G. Moore
mo...@euler.bd.psu.edu
Matthew B. Tepper
In article <5ij1nu$t...@onsager.bd.psu.edu>, mo...@onsager.bd.psu.edu
was heard to remark...
For some reason, timpani rolls are sometimes written as trills. They
aren't -- they're the player beating two sticks in alternation on the
same drumhead.
Just think of it as an irregular verb.
--
"I don't care about being politically correct. I just want to be
anatomically correct!" http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/index.htm
Matthew B. Tepper Web Brainiac and Gonzo Musicologist Quack!
doc...@okc.oklahoma.net
In article <5idms3$rf8$1...@newsd-104.bryant.webtv.net>,
Parz...@webtv.net wrote:
>Jon Conrad asked if Wagner wrote trills for men: Yes. Hagan, Fafner, and
>Siegried all trill in the Ring.
not to mention walther in the first act of Meistersinger...
Jon Conrad
Brian G. Moore <mo...@euler.bd.psu.edu> wrote:
>I found interesting the comment from someone that they could not
>tell if there were trills as they could not read music. I don't read
>music either, but are not trills just indicated by a "tr" notation
>above the note?
Yes, they are. Followed by a wavy line if the trill is of longer
duration.
>As an aside, when I first looked at an orchestral score I was surprised
>to see many of the timpani parts shown as extended trills. I suppose
>they are when you think about it. Is it assumed that the two drums
>will be set a half tone apart?
No, the trill sign is commonly used in scores but technically not correct.
A timp roll is played on *one* drum with two sticks. All those trills in
the drum parts are to be read as rolls on a single pitch. I suppose long
ago when the practice started it was easier to write tr----- then those 3
tremolo beams below every note.