The Charge that Domingo Didn't Have Good Top Notes
Drakejake
performance and he never sang a good high B flat," that is a lie.
If the charge means: "I have listened to every Domingo studio and live
recording, and he never sang a good high B flat," that is a lie.
If the charge means "Domingo must have faked his way through those several
thousand performances because he couldn't sing the high notes of his roles,":
that is a lie.
If the charge means "I heard Domingo crack a note once and I can infer from
that one note or one performance that he never sang good high notes," that is a
lie.
If the charge means, "Domingo didn't have a good, reliable high C in live
performance," that is probably correct, but as originally phrased the
statement is a gross, unfair overstatement.
If the charge means, "Some tenors have had better high notes than Domingo and
could sing higher," that is true, but is unfair unless The superiority of
Domingo in other aspects of his opera career is acknowledged.
If the charge implies that Domingo did not deserve to have the career that he
has had, that he is a mediocre singer who has inexplicably dominated his
profession for over 25 years, then the person making the charge doesn't have a
clue about Domingo or opera.
No one making the charge about Domingo's high notes has EVER presented a single
piece of relevant evidence. The fact that a particular singer gave some bad
performances or cracked a few notes can never prove the broad generalization.
Such evidence only proves that the singer is a human beign who is sometimes ill
or sometimes makes a mistake. A singer who couldn't sing the notes of his
roles could never rise to the top of his profession and stay there for decades.
On the other hand, the charge is immediately and totally refuted by the
hundreds of thousands (including me) who heard Domingo give great live
performances and sing numerous loud, focussed high A's and B flats. Even those
who never saw Domingo live can listen to dozens of unedited, live opera
recordings and hear the superb upper register of the Spaniard.
(Even in the declining years of his career, after over forty years of hard
singing, Domingo still has great high notes which can be heard in the theatre
and on records, but he has lost power, reliability, range, and stamina. But
Domingo, like all performers, must be judged by his peak years. These were
the 1970's and 1980's, when he sang an enormous repertoire from lyric to
dramatic with great success and distinction.)
Jake Drake
Tom Kaufman
>performance," that is probably correct,
Not probably. Definitely, absolutely, Positively.
>If the charge means, "Some tenors have had better high notes than Domingo and
>could sing higher," that is true, but is unfair unless The superiority of
>Domingo in other aspects of his opera career is acknowledged.
As far as I am concerned, he has no special qualifications in other aspects of
opera. A voice I consider ugly, no squillo, and too few operas that interest
me.
Sorry about that (not really)
>
Tom Kaufman
URL of web site:
<A href="www.geocities.com/Vienna/8917/index.html">Tom Kaufman's site</A>
Commspkmn
<< As far as I am concerned, he has no special qualifications in other aspects
of
opera. A voice I consider ugly, no squillo, and too few operas that interest
me. >>
Nevertheless, he certainly seems to occupy a tremendous amount of your time.
Best,
Ken
Figaropcb
"Even those who never saw Domingo live can listen to dozens of unedited, live
opera
recordings and hear the superb upper register of the Spaniard."
I've heard Domingo live since the mid-1960's and "Superb upper register" are
words I would never in a million years use to describe him, even when he was
young. Omitting comparison with historical singers of past eras (like Tamagno,
Escalais or Lauri-Volpi for example) and limiting the discussion to Domingo's
contemporaries, and when he was in his youthful prime: depending on repertoire
and weight of voice, "superb upper register" signifies Nicolai Gedda, Alfredo
Kraus, Richard Tucker, Gianni Raimondi or Franco Corelli, but not Domingo. And
I don't think it is in any way remarkable or deserving of any special
commendation when you say that Domingo, "sang numerous loud, focussed high A's
and B flats". I don't know about you but I EXPECT those notes from a tenor and
I expect them to be easy, reliable and comfortably within his range. I've
heard baritones sing those notes.
Regards,
Paul
Tom Kaufman
>Best,
>Ken
Not really. It's answering Howard's nonsense that takes up a few seconds.
Especially when his b.s. is directed at me or at friends like ED, Don P., Paul,
Stregata, Don Ron, etc. etc. etc.
To know that there are people who seriously believe that P.D. had a great top
bugs me.
My best to you
Tom
Tom Kaufman
>words I would never in a million years use to describe him, even when he was
>young. Omitting comparison with historical singers of past eras (like
>Tamagno,
>Escalais or Lauri-Volpi for example) and limiting the discussion to Domingo's
>contemporaries, and when he was in his youthful prime: depending on
>repertoire
>and weight of voice, "superb upper register" signifies Nicolai Gedda, Alfredo
>Kraus, Richard Tucker, Gianni Raimondi or Franco Corelli, but not Domingo.
>And
>I don't think it is in any way remarkable or deserving of any special
>commendation when you say that Domingo, "sang numerous loud, focussed high
>A's
>and B flats". I don't know about you but I EXPECT those notes from a tenor
>and
>I expect them to be easy, reliable and comfortably within his range. I've
>heard baritones sing those notes.
>
>Regards,
>
>Paul
Bravo!!!! Bravossimo!!! That's telling it like it is.
Valfer
Domingo's voice was. His reply: "Fino al si bemole".
Ten years later, he had changed his comment to "fino al la"
I haven't seen him since. By now, it should be "fino al sol"
It's interesting to see a tenor refuse to retire when his topmost note
can be matched by a bass-baritone.
Valfer
Commspkmn
<<To know that there are people who seriously believe that P.D. had a great top
bugs me.>>
I have to admit that would give me pause as well, Tom.
Best,
Ken
Commspkmn
<< I haven't seen him since. By now, it should be "fino al sol"
It's interesting to see a tenor refuse to retire when his topmost note
can be matched by a bass-baritone. >>
Fernando de Lucia?
Marcia
opera during Domingo's stay and though Domingo was much loved in the country
and a fine artist he never conquered the top notes.. There were two Italian
tenors there at the same time who had high notes and voice to spare but not
the artistry and stage presence of Placido. Though my husband loved Placido
as a person he also realized how he struggled for the top notes especially
in operas like Faust .At the end when he was supposed to sing Lenski ,De
Phillipe heard a Romanian tenor with a glorious sound and top and replaced
him. I think that was one reason he and Marta left at that particular
time... Diva 3
"Tom Kaufman" <tomk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040611130051...@mb-m26.aol.com...
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 06/11/2004 2:43 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20040611154332...@mb-m27.aol.com>
Domingo may not have a *great* top, but he certainly had a top that was more
than adequate for all the roles he recorded.
He reached his notes without scooping or dropping syllables.
The positives of a warm timbre, exemplary musicianship and a seamless legato
put Domingo, in my book, ahead of the stentorian showoffs that Tom touts
reapeatedly.
==G/P Dave
Commspkmn
<< Domingo may not have a *great* top, but he certainly had a top that was more
than adequate for all the roles he recorded. >>
I'd probably go with "adequate," and not much further, Dave. But like you, I
found a lot of other qualities that compensated for the relative lack of
brilliance in one area.
Best,
Ken
Sergio H. da Silva
problems and it took some time to overcome them. After this period his top
improved much better.
"Marcia" <marci...@att.net> wrote in message
news:o1oyc.47382$Gx4....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Tom Kaufman
>The positives of a warm timbre, exemplary musicianship and a seamless legato
>put Domingo, in my book, ahead of the stentorian showoffs that Tom touts
>reapeatedly.
>
Dave:
It would be nice if you could participate in this discussion without referring
to singers who have great tops as "show offs" But as long as you introduce the
word to our discussion, most people like chances to do what they do best. In
Domingo's case, he is a fast learner, and has been able to learn loads of new
roles. In fact, some of his fans claim that he set records in that respect. Pav
is at the other end of the scale in learning roles, but makes up for that with
charm and a super top. he, too, does what he does best.
Don't you?
Cheers
Drakejake
He left Israel because he had better opportunities elsewhere. Ddomingo may have
had trouble with high notes in Israel, I don't know, I wasn't there. Many
tenors, including Caruso and Gigli and Corelli, did not develop their full
upper ranges until some years into their professional careers. But Domingo's
earliest live recordings, made when he was in his early twenties, reveal
secure, brilliant, powerful high notes. His technique was so secure that by his
mid-twenties he was singing his first performances of spinto parts. This at an
age when a number of today's prominent tenors were still studying voice or
singing in bars. When listening to Domingo, live or on records, I never have
had the thought--this guy can't sing high notes. On the contrary I always
think that his top notes, certainly to high B flat, are glorious, steady, and
shining. I have sung many performances of operas and concerts and have never
heard better or more beautiful high notes from another spinto tenor. I have
heard many tenors at the Met who didn't match Domingo's quality in the upper
register. By the way, I am a tenor who can sing high C's while lying on my
back in the bathtub. I recently did so while listening to Domingo sing two
fine high C's during one of his recordings of Di quella pira. These high C's
were right on the money, although not of Corelli quality IMO.
Jake Drake
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 06/11/2004 4:22 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20040611172252...@mb-m05.aol.com>
~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom,
Excessively held notes, disregard for dynamic markings, are, imo, symptomatic
of singers who are more intent on displaying their vocal resources than in
faithfully depicting the character the composer has envisaged.
Pavarotti is superb in LA FILLE DU REGIMENT, WILLIAM TELL, I PURITANI and many
other operas.
I think he outsings Domingo as the Duke of Mantua, not by dint of having a
better top, but because his lighter voice and more insouciant style better
serves the role.
But in DON CARLOS, Domingo outsings Pavarotti.
Verdi tenors operate in a lower tessitura than Bellini or Rossini. A baritonal
warmth, such as Domingo (and Bergonzi) possess is *de riguer* in such roles as
Rodolfo (LUISA MILLER), Stiffelio, Don Alvaro, Otello.
Pavarotti, for the most part, stayed in character. He did not drop syllables
as Del Monaco and Corelli did in AIDA (where "o ciel de' nostri amori" not only
loses the last syllable but the lovely *dolce* that Verdi demanded). Domingo
and Bjoerling are superb here and throughout the opera.
I wouldn't trade loud, unduly extended high notes for delivering the text and
music within the parameters of the text and music.
A great artist serves the music and doesn't distort it to it feed his ego.
==G/P Dave
Charlie Handelman
My best, Charlie.
My Website dedicated to the vocal art is located at:
La Donna Mobile
the way of musical training, but, hey this is REC.music.opera, not
WORK.music.opera.
My very personal feeling is that I am entirely indifferent to High Cs. I'm
never going to applaud somebody just because they can sing a high note, and
I actually can't off the top off my head think of a single occasion when I
have felt emotionally moved by a high note alone - a great high note can't
save an indifferent aria, and an indifferent high note is never going to
ruin a great aria.
What I really like in Domingo's voice is the richness - yeah, if you like,
the baritonial timbre. At present I am currently listening to Christus am
Olberge (or I would be if there weren't phone calls from work, knocks on the
door from neighbours, police raids, fiance moving in to live with me etc
every time I try to play it - but that's a whole other story). It's actually
one of the few pieces I actually have the urge to get the score for. Anyway,
a review I read called the tenor part 'punishingly high' and another review
(New York Times) said how splendid Placido sings it. Okay, I know it's in
the studio blahdiblah, but I keep listening to this and loving it more every
time I hear it (well, if it wasn't for the police raids, fiance moving in
etc...)
Plus, when I'm watching an opera, especially on DVD, where it's up close and
personal, but also in the cheap seats in the theatre, I actually like to see
a part acted, as Placido acts, not just some bloke stand there and frown
for 'sad' and 'smile' for happy - (hey my friend is using happy and sad
faces to teach her nursery (3 and 4 year olds) about crotchets and quavers).
And finally, I do like to play his 100 anos di mariachi, and Quierieme
Mucho LOUD when my Latin American neighbours are playing their salsa...!
"GRNDPADAVE" <grndp...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040611174219...@mb-m28.aol.com...
Ron Dargenio
> Domingo may not have a *great* top, but he certainly had a top that was
more
> than adequate for all the roles he recorded.
>
> He reached his notes without scooping or dropping syllables.
>
> The positives of a warm timbre, exemplary musicianship and a seamless
legato
> put Domingo, in my book, ahead of the stentorian showoffs that Tom touts
> reapeatedly.
>
> ==G/P Dave
the lowest standard by which opera singers are to be evaluated.
As far as spinto/dramatic tenors who possessed more voice then PD, many of
us appreciate and welcome their ability and generosity.
To call them "showoffs" is really an abysmal cheap shot. Perhaps you are
aiming your remarks at just one or a few readers here, Dave, but the rest of
us have to read it too.
RD
Tom Kaufman
Perhaps you could give a few examples of excessively held (in your opinion)
high notes. BTW--do you time them with a stop watch.
disregard for dynamic markings, are, imo, symptomatic
>of singers who are more intent on displaying their vocal resources than in
>faithfully depicting the character the composer has envisaged.
Tell me, Dave--how do you know when a singer disregards markings? Do you always
listen to a new recording with score in hand? Do you memorize the markings?
>
>Pavarotti is superb in LA FILLE DU REGIMENT, WILLIAM TELL, I PURITANI and
>many
>other operas.
Finally, we agree. And, i am happy to say, you list some of my favorite operas.
I could add Favorita, Lombardi, capuleti, Sonnambula, Luisa Miller
>
>I think he outsings Domingo as the Duke of Mantua, not by dint of having a
>better top, but because his lighter voice and more insouciant style better
>serves the role.
>
>But in DON CARLOS, Domingo outsings Pavarotti.
I agree. But not Carreras. Of course, we are comparing the young Domingo to a
Pavarotti past his peak.
>
>Verdi tenors operate in a lower tessitura than Bellini or Rossini. A
>baritonal
>warmth, such as Domingo (and Bergonzi) possess is *de riguer* in such roles
>as
>Rodolfo (LUISA MILLER), Stiffelio, Don Alvaro, Otello.
The only one of these where I would consider Pavarotti is Luisa Miller. Both
him and Domingo fail (IMHO) as Otello.
But I would not consider a baritonal quality as necessarily warm. In fact one
of the things I like most about Pav and GLV is their lack of a baritonal
quality. While, IMHO, Domingo has much too much--especially now.
>
>Pavarotti, for the most part, stayed in character. He did not drop syllables
>as Del Monaco and Corelli did in AIDA (where "o ciel de' nostri amori" not
>only
>loses the last syllable but the lovely *dolce* that Verdi demanded). Domingo
>and Bjoerling are superb here and throughout the opera.
My favorite radames is probably Gigli. Domingo was pretty good in the recording
where he assisted Caballe. GLV is superb in the Nile Scene. One wishes he had
recorded the complete opera.
>
>I wouldn't trade loud, unduly extended high notes for delivering the text and
>music within the parameters of the text and music.
De gustibus.
>
>A great artist serves the music and doesn't distort it to it feed his ego.
I wouldn't quite put it that way. There are many fans, myself included who love
extended high notes--from tenors, at least. And a superb high note in the right
place helps serve the music. Verdi knew what he was doing when he approved the
high C in the pira, and gave Tamberlick one in Forza I.
Speaking of feeding your ego, I would say that is exactly what Domingo does
when he sings operas he shouldn't to add to his repertory count, but transposes
them all the way down.
Tom
>
>==G/P Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Tom Kaufman
URL of web site:
donpaolo
LOVED it - funny, I do not hear any booing in that famous Parma Tosca, with
the sustained, ringing, UN-cracked, UN-hoarse "vittoria". I hear no boos
after the 20 second diminuendo in "e lucevan le stelle". I hear
enthusiastic cheers of gratitude by the audience for the "extra" that Franco
generously gave them.
On the other hand, Domingo, with his hoarse, pushed, on the verge of
disaster, unpleasant tone, could barely manage those scenes, as well as
others (in LIVE performances) wherein he simply turned his back to the
audience & stopped singing completely. So, of course, PD didn't
"show-off" - he had nothing with which to give that extra something -
thrilling, intense singing.
DonPaolo
"Tom Kaufman" <tomk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040611172252...@mb-m05.aol.com...
Tom Kaufman
>the lowest standard by which opera singers are to be evaluated.
>
>As far as spinto/dramatic tenors who possessed more voice then PD, many of
>us appreciate and welcome their ability and generosity.
>
>To call them "showoffs" is really an abysmal cheap shot. Perhaps you are
>aiming your remarks at just one or a few readers here, Dave, but the rest of
>us have to read it too.
>RD
>
Dave has every right to prefer what he refers to as "musicianship" to high
notes held long enough so that one can enjoy them. That's a matter of taste,
and we all enjoy different things.
But calling those tenors who give a different part of the audience what they
want "show-offs" was a cheap shot, and a cause for me to be a bit dissapointed
in you.. I expected better. Would you call Barry Bonds a show-off when he hits
a home run?
If you attended a Giants-Cubs game with both Bonds and Sosa playing would you
want to see some home runs or a pitcher's battle?
GRNDPADAVE
>From: "Ron Dargenio" rdargen...@aol.com
>Date: 06/11/2004 5:15 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <eYOdnUaXVcy...@comcast.com>
>
Ron writes:
>We have rehashed this numerous times, but AFAIC, commercial recordings are
>the lowest standard by which opera singers are to be evaluated.
>
>As far as spinto/dramatic tenors who possessed more voice then PD, many of
>us appreciate and welcome their ability and generosity.
>
>To call them "showoffs" is really an abysmal cheap shot. Perhaps you are
>aiming your remarks at just one or a few readers here, Dave, but the rest of
>us have to read it too.
>RD
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Right, Ron:
Caruso, Lauri-Volpi, Piccaluga, O'Sullivan, et al., should not be judged by
their recordings.
I once had an LP of 40 tenors singing "Di quella pira." Some of them hung on
to high C for more than 5 seconds. If that's not showing off, I don't know
what is.
You can label my calling attention to singers seeking applause by
hyper-extending note as being a "cheap shot" -- but that doesn't make it so.
It is my honest observation.
I regret having subjected you to an observation you would prefer that I had not
posted.
==G/P Dave
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 06/11/2004 6:29 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20040611192936...@mb-m11.aol.com>
~~~~~~~~~~~
When the Cubs face the Giants I am rooting for a *team* not individual players.
I'd rather see the Cubs win 1-to-0 than have Sosa sock 3 home runs during a
Giants victory.
Operas *are* scripted. I go to see and hear the opera. Often I don't care who
is in the cast. I do hope that the text and music are delivered with due
regard for the composer's objectives.
The last three operas I saw were LUCREZIA BORGIA, IL BARBIERE DI SIVIGLIA and
FALSTAFF. The only singer I can recall in any of them is the one who posts
here as "Rinuccio4."
I do not accept an analogy the regards opera as a sporting event.
==G/P Dave
Stregata
one know Domingo's artistry as some say here: up, down and sideways, and I
don't consider myself an ignoramus regarding opera. You tend to generalize
too often, Howard, and that is really annoying.
The artistry of a particular singer is in the ear of the beholder, period.
What sounds excellent to you, to me it sounds mediocre and dull. That
doesn't automatically make your perception true and mine a lie.
You can give me thousands of examples about Domingo's so-called high notes
and his overall artistry, and I'll still find him run-of-the mill and
extremely uninvolved. I could give you thousands of examples of Domingo's
weaknesses and you will still find him an exemplary tenor.
Who holds the truth in either case? No one, because listening is strictly a
subjective issue. The fact that I hear differently from you doesn't make me
an ignoramus and a liar.
Stregata
If the charge implies that Domingo did not deserve to have the career that
he
has had, that he is a mediocre singer who has inexplicably dominated his
profession for over 25 years, then the person making the charge doesn't
have a
clue about Domingo or opera.
"Drakejake" <drak...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040611100420...@mb-m27.aol.com...
Stregata
exasperating.
It shows that mostly all your operatic experience is through recordings.
Had you experienced opera live, witnessing the supposed "showoffs," I'm sure
you would have more than welcomed their "narcissistic stunts."
But then, some people tend to criticize what they have not experienced.
Stregata
"GRNDPADAVE" <grndp...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040611155225...@mb-m24.aol.com...
Stregata
high C were needed in order to have a finished product.
Stregata
"Drakejake" <drak...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040611172943...@mb-m04.aol.com...
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 06/11/2004 8:02 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <4Lsyc.18746$Kd5....@bignews4.bellsouth.net>
>
>First "narcissistic stunts", now "showoffs." You certainly can get
>exasperating.
>
>It shows that mostly all your operatic experience is through recordings.
>Had you experienced opera live, witnessing the supposed "showoffs," I'm sure
>you would have more than welcomed their "narcissistic stunts."
>
>But then, some people tend to criticize what they have not experienced.
>
>Stregata
>
If the shoe fits....
;>)) G/P Dave
David Melnick
>
> Excessively held notes, disregard for dynamic markings, are, imo, symptomatic
> of singers who are more intent on displaying their vocal resources than in
> faithfully depicting the character the composer has envisaged.
Are you saying that if Domingo had had great high notes,
he would have refrained from holding them out of a concern
for "faithfully depicting the character the composer has
envisaged"?
He has never been one to conceal his other gifts!
I'm not a Domingo basher, but I can't imagine it.
Best,
David
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 06/11/2004 9:18 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <KJtyc.6436748$iA2.7...@news.easynews.com>
I do not evaluate a performer on the basis of what they would do if they had a
different vocal endowment.
What is relevant to me is what they have accomplished.
Recently I listened to Domingo's live La Scala FANCIULLA. After "Or son sei
mesi" the audience erupted into huge applause, although there was no particular
high note to invite this reaction. What there was, however, was a marvelous
rendition of the passage revealing Dick Johnson's plight and how he came to a
"bandito da strada."
It's not what he or anyone else would have done, but what they did that counts
for me.
Best,
==G/P Dave
Tom Kaufman
>mesi" the audience erupted into huge applause, although there was no
>particular
>high note to invite this reaction. What there was, however, was a marvelous
>rendition of the passage revealing Dick Johnson's plight and how he came to a
>"bandito da strada."
>
Carreras, but enough to want to own many of his records. I bought the Fanciulla
del West, and remember playing much of it--including "Or son sei mesi". An aria
I had long loved based on recordings by Hipolito Lazaro, Bernardo De Muro and
Nino Piccaluga. Remembering what the magnificent Lazaro and De Muro and the
equally wonderful Piccaluga (all probably the type of tenors whom Dave would
dismiss as stentorian narcissists) made me decide to avoid P.D. in dramatic
verismo works--not because he couldn't manage the show-offy high notes, but
because he couldn't cut the mustard where the drama was concerned.
I might add that the three mentioned tenors were the types who were chosen by
major verismo composers to create their operas. The tenors and composers knew
what they were doing.
Three cheers for Lazaro, De Muro and Piccaluga--none for you know who.
Tom
Tom Kaufman
URL of web site:
Premiereopera
>Date: 6/11/04 9:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <5Lsyc.18747$Kd5....@bignews4.bellsouth.net>
>
>I I would be curious to find out how many takes of that "right on the money"
>high C were needed in order to have a finished product.
9,453
Ed
Sergio H. da Silva
being a Domingo fan) where they praised Domingo for having the guts to sing
Dick Johnson in La Fanciulla at La Scala. The public there is very
traditional and still had fond memories of Del Monaco and Corelli and his
performance was much praised.
I would cheer for Lazaro and De Muro as well but there is more than enough
space for other Johnson''s don't you think ?news:20040611224447...@mb-m04.aol.com...
Sergio H. da Silva
tenors do not get a good rep with me, they ignore most of the markings (I
won't mention names).
Carreras is a very good Don Carlo and different from Domingo whether he is
your favorite is a personal choice, but musically he was always problematic
(listen to how he breaks his voice to reach the high note in the beginning
of the Trio in Act III - Elisabetta mio tesoro a me vien ... the higher note
in the word "vien") ...news:20040611182248...@mb-m07.aol.com...
The Divo
> Verdi tenors operate in a lower tessitura than Bellini or Rossini. A baritonal
> warmth, such as Domingo (and Bergonzi) possess is *de riguer* in such roles as
> Rodolfo (LUISA MILLER), Stiffelio, Don Alvaro, Otello.
>
Verdi tenor roles do not have lower tessituras than tenor roles in
Bellini and Rossini. . .quite the contrary. Otello is perhaps the one
exception but a role such as Don Carlo, for instance, sits very high.
The tenor roles in Bellini, Donizetti and Rossini may require the the
tenors to sing higher notes. . .Tonio and Arnold come immediately to
mind. . .but the tessituras are not as high as most of the Verdi
roles.
Elisabetta611
keeps coming back like crazy. For what? It mostly leads to insults,
heated (Mostly fruitless) debate and people never agree anyway. I for
one could care less if Doming ever sang a great high C, I'd trade all
the high Cs I had to hear live from Botha&Co for ONE performance of
Domingo's musicianship. Let those who love acuti be happy and those
who have other preferences live. Honestly, I'd rather hear Trovatore
or Otello with Domingo than with either Escalais or Corelli. Just a
personal preference. Hell, I don't care that Callas screams most of
the high notes in her Norma from 1960, that's not why I'm listening to
her. So there!
E.
Commspkmn
<< It would be nice if you could participate in this discussion without
referring
to singers who have great tops as "show offs" >>
Tom:
Perhaps you and Dave could work out a trade. He won't use "show offs", and you
won't use "Topless."
Best,
Ken
Commspkmn
<< I do listen to recordings with the score whenever I can >>
Seems like a good idea to me.
Best,
Ken
Commspkmn
<< First "narcissistic stunts", now "showoffs." You certainly can get
exasperating.
>>
Yes, sometimes one needs great strength to navigate rmo.
Best,
Ken
Tom Kaufman
>space for other Johnson''s don't you think ?
Space--yes. Time (my time) for some yes, but for Domingo's--never.
I will only listen to the best version or versions I have. Domingo rarely, if
ever qualifies.
Steve Silverman
"Commspkmn" <comm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040612063647...@mb-m27.aol.com...
> serg...@pobox.com wrote:
> << I do listen to recordings with the score whenever I can >>
>
> Seems like a good idea to me.
I've always listened with a score until I'm completely familiar with a
piece, at which point I dispense with it for good unless I want to check a
specific point. I take that approach with all forms of music, not just
opera. I find that it greatly enhances my long-term enjoyment fo the work.
Steve Silverman
william kasimer
"Elisabetta611" <elisab...@yahoo.de> wrote in message
news:617bbe67.0406...@posting.google.com...
> Well, isn't it fun? Like the Tebaldi-Callas war this old, stupid
topic
> keeps coming back like crazy. For what? It mostly leads to insults,
That's the raison d'etre of any Domingo thread on RMO, and for many of
those who participate in such things.
Bill
--
==========================
William D. Kasimer
wkas...@comcast.net
wkas...@quincymc.org.
Hal Temprice
-----
What are you doing here, Elisabatta?
There be trolls aplen'y 'ere, my dear!
CHSIII
> one could care less if Doming ever sang a great high C,
I think you mean you couldn't care less.
Charlie Handelman
But at least a B FLAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!CH
My best, Charlie.
My Website dedicated to the vocal art is located at:
Charlie Handelman
a role like Calaf or Manrico DEMAND!!!!!
Gee."what an artist!!!!' Like ..who cares??Did Lauri-Volpi or Corelli make such
a name for themselves because they were lieder singers??????
What is the good of singing some of these roles if you cannot handle the
tessitura???This is not the Marshallin or Herod...this is the REAL STUFF...and
Placido does NOT rise to the occasion in some of his chosen repertory....as
ever Charlie..of the chosen people.....(who chose me???)
Drakejake
Stefano, Carreras, Vickers, and Bergonzi (after 1975). Tenors with better
upper register technique than Domingo include Tucker, Gedda, Kraus, Del Monaco,
and Corelli. All of these singers used a very strong covered technique to help
them produce focussed, ringing high notes at the top of their ranges. Domingo,
it seems to me, uses only a minimum of covering. This requires less energy and
force than full covering, but makes it harder to produce impressive high B
naturals and high C's. Very strong covering helps to focus the voice at the
top of the range. Pavarotti covered his passaggio very strongly but opened up
his top notes too much. This allowed easy production of notes in the high B
natural and high C area, but eventually led to cracked notes once Pavarotti got
to middle age and lost some of his very powerful breath support.
Jake Drake
Premiereopera
Pavarotti covered his passaggio very strongly but opened
>up
>his top notes too much. This allowed easy production of notes in the high B
>natural and high C area, but eventually led to cracked notes once Pavarotti
>got
>to middle age and lost some of his very powerful breath support.
I must agree 100% with Jake's above critique of Pavarotti. Right on the money!
Ed
CHSIII
> Stefano, Carreras, Vickers, and Bergonzi (after 1975).
One should remember that with Di Stefano, the career began before WWII. By
the time he assumed heavier roles in the middle and late fifties, his upper
voice certainly betrayed wear, or sounded "whiter" as some have put it, but
he remained capable of emitting solid high notes, "white" or not - and
review of his early 50's performances show the degree to which he possessed
a masterful technique. Jon Vickers was never a tenor of high notes, and
those roles he assumed containing notes above High A, he did I think for
dramatic reasons, and not to prove anything about high notes. The fact is,
his portrayals of Otello, Alvaro, Pagliacci, and Aeneas made his uncertainty
above A a negligible consideration. Carreras had a beautiful top, which
eventually succumbed to too-loud singing and then illness - but he certainly
had the notes up to C in his short prime. Even after age caught up with
Bergonzi, he knew how to set himself, and produce honest tenor high notes,
from piano to forte, up to C. It is true that much of the ring was gone
after the early 70's, and again, the voice was approaching 20 plus years of
wear; but his technique was certainly, among any of his contemporaries I can
think of other than Kraus and Gedda, unmatched. I heard Domingo in his
youth and his prime years many times - I never heard him cause anything
remotely close to the kind of demonstration Bergonzi was able to produce
even at the end of his active career. The two most thunderous ovations I
ever heard accorded a tenor, were in 1974 or 1975 - Bergonzi as Rodolfo
(Boheme) and two nights later as Manrico (although I must mention an equally
thunderous ovation I heard given for Tucker's "Cielo e mar" one night in the
60's)! Domingo never had technique for the upper notes - they were stabs in
the dark, and more than often, in my experience, they totally missed the
mark - they were squeezed, unpleasant, nasal, loud (except for his fakey
falsetto imitations of mezza-voce), and desperate.
Premiereopera
>Date: 6/12/04 10:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <tFEyc.23880$Yd3....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Your post is wonderful, as always, and right on the mark, IMHO. Of course, I
could never have written it as beautifully as you did. BRAVO!!!
Just regarding techniques, I think of the tenors mentioned by you, singing the
big roles, it was Bergonzi and Tucker who had the finest techniques. Tucker
never lost a note off his top range until 63, when he passed away. Bergonzi, as
Drakejake said, began having trouble in or about 1975.
I was at a Forza with Bergonzi at Covent Garden, and he had a very bad night.
Could have been a cold, but he simply couldn't sing the top for the final third
of the opera.
I went backstage with Jose Carreras, with whom I was sitting, and Bergonzi kept
talking about "abassamente di voce." Jose felt very badly for his older
colleague. The following night, Carreras sang Pinkerton magnificently-
tremendous high C to cap the love duet.
I think the Butterfly was Kubiak (?) but am not at all sure. Any of our London
folks recall?
Still, I heard Bergonzi give countless great performances after this one Forza
where his top gave him no trouble, and then eventually with age, fhe did start
to flat now and then, but, if holding a long note, would almost always get it
up to pitch, even if it began a bit underpitch.
Goodness, were we ever spoiled in NY in the 60's when, in the same week, we
could hear Bergonzi, Corelli or Tucker in the lirico spinto roles, and
Gedda,Kraus, Bergonzi or Tucker in the lyric roles (such as the Duke, Alfredo,
Edgardo) and add Corelli in to the mix for Boheme, Romeo, etc.
I tried to avoid Barry Morrell, unless he was singing with Tebaldi or Milanov,
but with the above named tenors so active, there was virtually never a week
when one couldn't see one or more of them. Sometimes three or four in the same
week, and then it started over again the following week.
Those were the days, my friends.
Best,
Ed
donpaolo
lacked from the beginning.
DonP.
"Charlie Handelman" <plac...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20040612094603...@mb-m17.aol.com...
donpaolo
fans that qualifies him as "best".
DonP.
"Tom Kaufman" <tomk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040612071113...@mb-m14.aol.com...
donpaolo
DonP.
"Premiereopera" <premie...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040611234318...@mb-m02.aol.com...
donpaolo
"GRNDPADAVE" <grndp...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040611212319.08258.00000819@mb-> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
> If the shoe fits....
>
> ;>)) G/P Dave
Yup - like "topless cr-r-r-r-acker".
:>)))
DonP.
Figaropcb
"Goodness, were we ever spoiled in NY in the 60's when, in the same week, we
could hear Bergonzi, Corelli or Tucker in the lirico spinto roles, and
Gedda,Kraus, Bergonzi or Tucker in the lyric roles (such as the Duke, Alfredo,
Edgardo) and add Corelli in to the mix for Boheme, Romeo, etc."
And for the "second tier" back then you had the likes of Flaviano Labo, Bruno
Prevedi, Gianni Raimondi and Sandor Konya singing on nights the "big names"
with the big recording contracts weren't. Labo was the best of the lot ---
could sing the spinto rep with ease and honor and could hold his own when
thrown into casts with big names like Milanov, Siepi, Tebaldi. Raimondi didn't
stay very long at the Met, only 4 seasons, but was good, solid, idiomatic and
possessed fine high notes. Prevedi had a short top but could sing the standard
Italian rep idiomatically and in a 3,800-seat barn like the Met --- the exact
rep that is so hard to cast today: Manrico, Radames, Don Carlos, Riccardo,
Don Alvaro, Cavaradossi, etc. Konya, like dear Gabriella Tucci, eventually
wore himself out from overwork and the ravages of time --- Mr. Bing could
throw him onstage 3 nights a week and sometimes did --- but what a fine
Lohengrin he was when he started out, and he also sang Italian roles --- all
those TOSCA's with Tebaldi & Colzani! We could use every one of them today and
they would be big names, especially Labo.
Like Ed, I tried to avoid Barry Morrell plus James McCracken, George Shirley,
etc. --- the "third tier". ( I realize a lot of people would put McCracken in
the 1st or 2nd tier but I could never stand him or get his "message" - -- the
pushed, strangulated tone and the horrible Italian diction were too much for me
and he had one totally unsubtle characterization for all roles and all dramatic
situations: a volcano in mid-eruption.
Even some of them would probably sound pretty good today.
Regards,
Paul
Premiereopera
>From: figa...@aol.com (Figaropcb)
>Date: 6/12/04 1:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20040612131457...@mb-m02.aol.com>
>
>premie...@aol.com wrote:
>"Goodness, were we ever spoiled in NY in the 60's when, in the same week, we
>could hear Bergonzi, Corelli or Tucker in the lirico spinto roles, and
>Gedda,Kraus, Bergonzi or Tucker in the lyric roles (such as the Duke,
>Alfredo,
>Edgardo) and add Corelli in to the mix for Boheme, Romeo, etc."
>==========
>And for the "second tier" back then you had the likes of Flaviano Labo, Bruno
>Prevedi, Gianni Raimondi and Sandor Konya singing on nights the "big names"
>with the big recording contracts weren't. Labo was the best of the lot ---
I agree. Labo was a really fine tenor. I saw him give wonderful performances in
Boheme, Traviata, Lucia, Forza, Gioconda, Turandot, among others.
I never cared for Prevedi. Yes, the voice was big and had a nice sound in the
middle, but he mangled the passaggio, and had virtually no top. Of all the
tenors of that period, he cracked the most.
Gianni Raimondi had a huge, incredible top C, and was a fine tenor, though, for
me, he covered too much around F, and that somewhat detracted from what I think
would have been an even brighter sound had he not done so.
And yes, I tried to avoid exactly the ones you mention.
Best,
Ed
Charlie Handelman
could never have written it as beautifully as you did. BRA
Yes.. The kind of posts that we adore....beautifully expressed and right on the
mark..CH
Charlie Handelman
etc. --- the "third tier". ( I realize a lot of people would put McCracken in
the 1st or 2nd tier but I could never stand him or get his "message" - -- the
pushed, strangulated tone and the horrible Italian diction were too much for me
an
BRAVISSSSSIMO!!!We used to laiugh at McCracken's parpignol..and how he made it
is still a mystery..
We loved labo...shotie...wonderful..and simply adored Raimondi.....todayhe
would be the greatest..
Leonard Tillman
>your post is wonderful, as always, and right on
> the mark, IMHO. Of course, I could never
> have written it as beautifully as you did.
> BRAVO
>Yes.. The kind of posts that we
> adore....beautifully expressed and right on the
>mark..
Yes, indeed "on the *mark* " - but not as in "Slaturd", however.
Leonard Tillman
maria
understand, why people, who don't like Maestro Domingo, are bent on
writing about him (and against him) again and again. I prefere to
write about singers I like and admire. :-)
Maria
elisab...@yahoo.de (Elisabetta611) wrote in message news:<617bbe67.0406...@posting.google.com>...
Sergio H. da Silva
flat as well) but I do not think he could go up to a C as well (the flames
are starting to burn in r.m.o now). And Del Monaco although had good high
notes, he would "shout" them more than sing them.
Covering and lowering the larynx combined (which is what Corelli and Del
Monaco) did although brings good benefits but has a major drawback, it makes
the voice very unflexible. Alagna also covers a lot. And Di Stefano is the
opposite, the "Uncovered Tenor" :-)
"Drakejake" <drak...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040612094903...@mb-m12.aol.com...
Sergio H. da Silva
Trovatore you're supposed to do a trill, not only sing ff but pp when
required, etc.
Just for the sake of comparison and to keep Domingo out of the way, listen
to Bergonzi singing "Ah si ben mio" and then listen to Corelli. It is
evident who is more "musical".
"Charlie Handelman" <plac...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20040612094603...@mb-m17.aol.com...
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 06/12/2004 9:06 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <R4Kyc.16661$FC3....@bignews1.bellsouth.net>
>
>A score is not just high notes, you know ? If you're singing Manrico in Il
>Trovatore you're supposed to do a trill, not only sing ff but pp when
>required, etc.
>Just for the sake of comparison and to keep Domingo out of the way, listen
>to Bergonzi singing "Ah si ben mio" and then listen to Corelli. It is
>evident who is more "musical".
Bravo !!
==G/P Dave
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 06/12/2004 3:45 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <819ae343.04061...@posting.google.com>
>
>I agree with you - I also find these quarrels useless. And I don't
>understand, why people, who don't like Maestro Domingo, are bent on
>writing about him (and against him) again and again. I prefere to
>write about singers I like and admire. :-)
>Maria
Is a puzzlement.
==G/P Dave
donpaolo
slam at Bergonzi, whom I admire tremendously, but when it came time to hold
that sword & sing that note (whatever it was/is) franco C. & Franco B.
rocked!
DonPaolo
"Sergio H. da Silva" <serg...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:R4Kyc.16661$FC3....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
donpaolo
a decent A.
Again, were Labo around the past 15 years, he'd be A#1; but back then he was
indeed lost in the shuffle. Huge sound for a little fella.
DonP.
"Premiereopera" <premie...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040612134025...@mb-m12.aol.com...
donpaolo
DonP.
"Charlie Handelman" <plac...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20040612143942...@mb-m18.aol.com...
La Donna Mobile
Judging by this war, and many previous, the charges against Placido are: no
top; all opera fans love out-of-context-High Cs sung for two hours just to
demonstrate; therefore Domingo is rubbish. No, it's not a valid argument to
say that all the opera houses of the world want to book him, because their
interests are only in selling seats (and spin-off CDS/DVDS etc) to opera
fans who only want to hear High Cs.
Have I passed Logic 101?
"Drakejake" <drak...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040611100420...@mb-m27.aol.com...
> If this charge means, "I heard every Domingo live opera and concert
> performance and he never sang a good high B flat," that is a lie.
>
> If the charge means: "I have listened to every Domingo studio and live
> recording, and he never sang a good high B flat," that is a lie.
>
> If the charge means "Domingo must have faked his way through those several
> thousand performances because he couldn't sing the high notes of his
roles,":
> that is a lie.
>
> If the charge means "I heard Domingo crack a note once and I can infer
from
> that one note or one performance that he never sang good high notes," that
is a
> lie.
>
> If the charge means, "Domingo didn't have a good, reliable high C in live
> performance," that is probably correct, but as originally phrased the
> statement is a gross, unfair overstatement.
>
> If the charge means, "Some tenors have had better high notes than Domingo
and
> could sing higher," that is true, but is unfair unless The superiority of
> Domingo in other aspects of his opera career is acknowledged.
>
> If the charge implies that Domingo did not deserve to have the career that
he
> has had, that he is a mediocre singer who has inexplicably dominated his
> profession for over 25 years, then the person making the charge doesn't
have a
> clue about Domingo or opera.
>
> No one making the charge about Domingo's high notes has EVER presented a
single
> piece of relevant evidence. The fact that a particular singer gave some
bad
> performances or cracked a few notes can never prove the broad
generalization.
> Such evidence only proves that the singer is a human beign who is
sometimes ill
> or sometimes makes a mistake. A singer who couldn't sing the notes of his
> roles could never rise to the top of his profession and stay there for
decades.
> On the other hand, the charge is immediately and totally refuted by the
> hundreds of thousands (including me) who heard Domingo give great live
> performances and sing numerous loud, focussed high A's and B flats. Even
those
> who never saw Domingo live can listen to dozens of unedited, live opera
> recordings and hear the superb upper register of the Spaniard.
>
> (Even in the declining years of his career, after over forty years of hard
> singing, Domingo still has great high notes which can be heard in the
theatre
> and on records, but he has lost power, reliability, range, and stamina.
But
> Domingo, like all performers, must be judged by his peak years. These
were
> the 1970's and 1980's, when he sang an enormous repertoire from lyric to
> dramatic with great success and distinction.)
>
> Jake Drake
>
>
Drakejake
but I have a number of studio and live recordings. I do not hear him shouting
any high notes (except maybe for a couple of screams in Otello, for example).
Tucker had the typical range of a spinto tenor. These usually do not sing high
C on stage. Corelli was an exception, but he lowered some usual high C's and
interpolated others, especially when he could compete with the soprano. Del
Monaco, Tucker, and Domingo could sing high C and you can hear them do so on
some studio recordings. But they preferred to play it safe and avoid this note
when possible. When you are at the very top of your range there are dangers.
Most people in the opera audience cannot tell a high B from a high C without a
pitch pipe. so why sing the C and risk a crack which will embarrass the singer
and erase all the good things in his performance? The usual rule is that you
do not sing your highest note on stage; limit yourself to a half step below for
a little margin of safety.
Most male singers, including the coloratura specialists such as Florez, cover
their high notes. Covering doesn't kill flexibility, but big-voiced male
singers usually aren't expected to have the facility of Callas or Sutherland.
Domingo, by the way, has a trill and good coloratura for a tenor. Listen to
Caruso's cadenza at the end of La donna e mobile or his facility in Una
furtiva. Caruso heavily covered his high notes but had great speed and
accuracy in such runs and turns.
Jake Drake
>Standard Time
>Message-id: <S4Kyc.16662$FC3....@bignews1.bellsouth.net>
Premiereopera
>Message-id: <819ae343.04061...@posting.google.com>
>
>I agree with you - I also find these quarrels useless. And I don't
>understand, why people, who don't like Maestro Domingo, are bent on
>writing about him (and against him) again and again. I prefere to
>write about singers I like and admire. :-)
>Maria
So do I, but I do believe this thread was fueled by a post from David Gable
where he quite needlessly, IMHO, took some potshots at Tebaldi in what had up
to that time been a quite friendly and mild Domingo topic. Just check the posts
before David's post and the posts following his posts.
Best,
Ed
Premiereopera
>Date: 6/12/04 5:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20040612170820...@mb-m14.aol.com>
It sure is, Yul !!!!!
Ed
Premiereopera
>Date: 6/12/04 10:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <S4Kyc.16662$FC3....@bignews1.bellsouth.net>
>
>I would agree except for Tucker. Tucker had good high notes up to a B (B
>flat as well) but I do not think he could go up to a C as well (the flames
>are starting to burn in r.m.o now).
No flames, but, quite simply, you are wrong. Tucker sang C's in Aida, Turandot,
Ballo, Manon Lescaut, and they are documented on tape. Live performances, as
late as a few months before he died.
He did choose to lower certain arias, as did his contemporary, Franco Corelli.
Arias in Boheme and Trovatore, especially. However, no less than the great
Caruso lowered the Boheme aria the 1/2 tone in his early recording of 1906.
I don't think a high C was a note that Tucker would throw around with the
abandon of Corelli, but he most certainly did have the note.
Best,
Ed
http://www.premiereopera.com for the best opera on DVD, CD, VHS, CD-ROM. 1/3
OFF SALE STILL IN EFFECT
Premiereopera
>From: "Sergio H. da Silva" serg...@pobox.com
>Message-id: <R4Kyc.16661$FC3....@bignews1.bellsouth.net>
>
>A score is not just high notes, you know ? If you're singing Manrico in Il
>Trovatore you're supposed to do a trill, not only sing ff but pp when
>required, etc.
>Just for the sake of comparison and to keep Domingo out of the way, listen
>to Bergonzi singing "Ah si ben mio" and then listen to Corelli. It is
>evident who is more "musical".
I heard them both in this aria, many times. And they were both great in their
own, different, ways, as was Tucker, IMO. When I would see Corelli I would be
thrilled by the way he sang this aria, and when I saw Corelli I would also be
thrilled by the way HE sang this aria. Very different, but no less magnificent.
Ed
Premiereopera
>Date: 6/12/04 7:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20040612192011...@mb-m22.aol.com>
Sorry for the typo. Of course, I meant Bergonzi once, instead of two
Corellis!!!
Ed
David7Gable
Is that anything like taking potshots at Domingo? In any case, Domingo has a
far better ear than Tebaldi ever had.
-david gable
David7Gable
>Bellini and Rossini. . .quite the contrary. [snip]
>The tenor roles in Bellini, Donizetti and Rossini may require the the
>tenors to sing higher notes. . .[snip]
>but the tessituras are not as high as most of the Verdi
>roles.
George Bernard Shaw, otherwise a great admirer of Verdi, accused him of
wrecking tenor and baritone voices by writing for an excessively high
tessitura. As Shaw hyperbolically put it, Verdi wrote for the upper third of
the baritone's and tenor's ranges.
-david gable
David7Gable
That's exactly right. He actually had a decent voice but a very poor
technique. With the right teacher, he would have become far more impressive
singer. I do like his early 60's Oedipus Rex with Stravinsky conducting, but
even there much of the singing is too effortful.
-david gable
David7Gable
>Corelli.
Vergogna!
-david gable
Capa0848
>From: david...@aol.com (David7Gable)
>Date: 6/12/2004 5:00 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <20040612200056...@mb-m27.aol.com>
A couple of notes on Mr Shirley, who gets smacked around here pretty well on
occasion.
He was the first African-American high school music teacher in Detroit - in the
mid 1950's -- think of how absurd that is.
A short time later (1955) he was drafted and broke the color line in the US
Army Chorus. Again -- how absurd is that? Blacks (who frequently have some
slight gift for singing) had probably been in the US Army for at least a
century by that time.
A few years later he made his opera debut at a New York venue * which has its
own special place in American musical history, albeit not in opera.
He won the Met auditions in 1961 -- singing "Nessun Dorma" -- and went on to
sing with that company, and others for a number of years.
No, he was not the best singer of his generation, or even close, but I submit
to you that Mr Shirley overcame as many obstacles in his career as any of the
greats.
And those of you who have seen him in interviews, know that he's a well-spoken,
thoughtful man, completely unlike the conventional view of an 'opera tenor'
personality.
Pat
* the venue was Woodstock, NY
David7Gable
>in
>a role like Calaf or Manrico DEMAND!!!!!
>Gee."what an artist!!!!' Like ..who cares??Did Lauri-Volpi or Corelli make
>such
>a name for themselves because they were lieder singers??????
You gloss over as many issues as you raise here, Charlie. First of all,
neither you nor anybody else would tolerate ANY singer who exhibited literally
zero musicianship (as if such a creature could even have a career in music):
musicianship refers to, among other things, the attention that is paid to the
notes in the score, and even in a Tebaldi performance the pitches and rhythms
are projected with sufficient accuracy that we know exactly what music she is
performing: we are able to recognize the musical shapes as such because her
musicianship is at least minimally adequate to the task. If the shapes that
constituted, for example, "Vissi d'arte" were not projected in performance, we
couldn't recognize the piece as such. In that sense, musicianship is by
definition the most important--most fundamental--aspect of any performance. So
much so that we are able to take it for granted and move on to other aspects of
performance. I mean, have you ever heard a performance of "Vissi d'arte" so
inadquate that you couldn't tell what aria was being sung? That you haven't is
a function of musicianship.
It goes without saying that you can be the most punctilious musician in the
world (in the sense of "musicianship") and not be a very interesting singer.
Which brings us to the question of "musicality." I prefer Corelli to Del
Monaco as I prefer Pavarotti to Domingo because, on the evidence of their
performances, I am absolutely convinced that Corelli was far more musical, had
far better musical "instincts," than Del Monaco, this despite Corell's often
less than punctilious musicianship. I prefer Pavarotti to Domingo for similar
reasons, although in my opinion the gulf between them is not so wide as in the
case of Corelli and Del Monaco: Domingo is not entirely without musical
instincts, and I'm surprised by how interesting he can be on the rare occasions
when he is really and truly on. Hell, not even Tebaldi and Del Monaco were
totally devoid of musical instincts. It should also be noted that nobody
devoid of all musical instincts could ever exhibit any degree of musicianship.
Musicianship is something that you develop through training and experience if
you are musical. Musicality is largely a native endowment although it always
and necessarily blossoms in the context of some performing tradition whereas
musicianship is a result of the training that musical people experience en
route to performing careers.
Finally, in addition to musicianship and musicality, there is the sheerly
physical or athletic side of musical performance. We are impressed by a
tenor's high C's or a pianist's virtuosic cascades of rapid arpeggios in part
for the same reason that sports fans are impressed by the feats of great
athletes: because virtuoso displays of physical prowess can be breath taking.
This is the aspect of musical performance that interests me least, yet even I
am not immune from its charms. For example, I find Sutherland a rather boring
singer, but her musicianship was rock solid and her technique was prodigious,
and I am dazzled by some of her virtuoso displays despite myself.
Finally, musicianship, musicality, and the sheerly physical dovetail in
performance. For example, composers tend to harness the sheer physical effort
required to sing high notes to expressive ends, often reserving high notes for
points of great intensity or for climaxes. In the case of many a high note,
the physical and the expressive are indistinguishable, indivisible, and the
most exciting performances of these high notes--Corelli's at his very best, for
example--are at once physically thrilling and deeply expressive.
But what a peculiar notion of Lieder singing you have!!!!! The idea that
Lieder singing is ONLY a matter of punctilious musicianship, something dry and
unexciting, is totally absurd. The idea that passion and intensity are
irrelevant in singing Lieder is equally absurd. Petre Munteanu's musicianship
was impeccable, but it's the extraordinary degree of musicality evinced by his
Schubert recordings that keeps me listening (not to mention Schubert's
extraordinary musicality). You're really distinguishing between two different
performing traditions here, one of which--the performance tradition of Italian
opera--was more freewheeling than the other, and your contemptuous dismissal of
the traditions of Lieder singing betray nothing but ignorance on your part.
(For the record, a lot of people dislike Fischer-Dieskau's Lieder singing for
the same reasons you dislike his Verdi.)
Life is short, and there is only time to absorb so much. Nobody is suggesting
you give up Puccini for Schubert. But you really should refrain from making
nonsensical dismissive comments when it comes to subjects you don't know
anything about.
-david gable
David7Gable
>that sword & sing that note (whatever it was/is) franco C. & Franco B.
>rocked!
God, I hope not! I would prefer if they "opera-ed."
-david gable, who REFUSES to incorporate the slang verb "to rock" into his
vocabulary
David7Gable
I don't thing it's necessarilyh a cheap shot, especially given that Dave
attempted to define with greater precision exactly what he means by showing
off. He's as entitled to dislike showing off by his definition as you are
entitled to like Del Monaco's high notes.
I should add that, despite my great respect for Dave, I am completely
unconvinced by his typically later 20th-century conviction that the score is as
sacrosanct a record of a composer's music as he believes it is. Indeed, there
has been a great revolution in the notation of music over the past two
centuries. An eighteenth century composer rarely wrote elaborate controlling
indications into the score, and I mean indications controlling phrasing such as
crescendoes and constant subtle verbal indications suggesting subtle variations
in tempo. He took it for granted that everybody knew how to phrase, and more
often than not he took it for granted that he would be at the rehearsals.
In the course of the 19th century, those composers who began to write a music
that more intrinsically depended on an ongoing rubato used more and more
indications suggesting subtle shifts in dynamics and tempo. This tradition
reached a climax with Mahler and Schoenberg and Berg, composers whose scores
are governed with constant verbal indications suggesting subtle alterations in
tempo on an ongoing basis. At the same time, a composer like Stravinsky began
writing rhythms that depended an unprecedentedly precise notation. After World
War II, composers of all stripes attempted to nail down every aspect of
performance that they could with the score. This reached an absurd extreme
with certain "totally serial" works of the early 1950's where every note has a
separate dynamic marking, etc. (Not that I have anything against all post-war
atonal music, because I don't.)
Even today, there are all kinds of unspoken expecations of the performer on the
part of the composer, but suddenly conductors, out of an unprecedented and
post-Stravinskyan respect for the score, are afraid to venture terribly far
from anything but the most literal representation of the bare bones of the
score.
In the case of Italian opera, a higher quotient of its superstar performers are
more or less "untutored" musicians--more, say, than pianists who play Beethoven
and Chopin, but they are only untutored in one sense of the ear. For these
performers--e.g., Pavarotti--the tradition of performance of Italian opera is a
living tradition transmitted directly through the ear. This aural tradition is
every bit as much a document of the repertory in the question as the score, and
yet the two are not always perfectly reconciled.
-david gable
Premiereopera
>Date: 6/12/04 7:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20040612194721...@mb-m27.aol.com>
What about his nose and belly button, David?
Ed
Premiereopera
>From: david...@aol.com (David7Gable)
>Message-id: <20040612200333...@mb-m27.aol.com>
Indeed. And also you would say vergogna to Caruso, too.
The difference with these tenors and Domingo is manyfold. First of all, none
except PD lowered anything that only went to B or Bb or A. Domingo has done all
of this. None of the others lowered entire scenes from operas which affected
other singers.
If you can't see the difference, than vergogna to you!!
Ed
David7Gable
>you would have more than welcomed their "narcissistic stunts."
How can you possibly be so sure?
-david gable
David7Gable
>except PD lowered anything that only went to B or Bb or A. Domingo has done
>all
>of this.
Either transposing is a crime or it isn't. Stealing a candy bar and stealing a
million bucks are both crimes.
-david gable
Premiereopera
>a
>million bucks are both crimes.
>
>-david gable
Sorry,David, but that doesn't wash with me.
To transpose to avoid a Bb, or an A natural, both of which Domingo has done in
the past decade, is a lot different than transposing a C and singing a glorious
B natural- something that Domingo could never really count on.
And transposing entire scenes that involve other singers is a different "crime"
entirely and should be outlawed.
Ed
Premiereopera
>a
>million bucks are both crimes.
>
>-david gable
Perhaps, but one isn't put in jail for stealing a candy bar. A million bucks is
far more serious. Domingo is the million bucks, to use your analogy, and the
others are the candy bars. Make mine a Snickers, please.
Ed
Jim OlsEn
"Premiereopera" <premie...@aol.com> wrote
> When I would see Corelli I would be
> thrilled by the way he sang this aria, and when I saw Corelli I would also
be
> thrilled by the way HE sang this aria. >
Were you also thrilled by the way Corelli sang this aria?
maria
to the latest and he never transposed anything the way Mr. Rosen says.
Yes, he transposes some high notes, but not the "entire scenes". And,
as one of Polish critics said (about "Andrea Chenier", Met 2002):
Placido Domingo was the unquestionable hero of the evening. He and
James Levine achieved a perfect synergy of which I have already
mentioned. As if oblivious to an audience of four thousand, the two
men seemed to perform exclusively for themselves (each other) as they
brought the harmonies of Giordano's music to the surface. Such
evenings are rare in opera. If you are lucky enough to witness one
such performance, you may only say, "Grazie.." and preferably in a
whisper. Therefore, it was insignificant that Domingo performed "un
di all'azzuro spazio" transposed one tone down. He has sung this aria
in the original key for many years, and recordings are available. The
final top noted resonated with unbelievable force, expression, and
triumph that Domingo communicated to the audience "Yes! I can still
sing it!" In this period of his career, Domingo has much more to
offer than a few perfect notes. His musical sensitivity combined with
a still wonderfully sonorous voice and remarkably deep interpretation
of the tragic poet of the French Revolution has not equal…..So once
again, "Grazie, Placido, for another evening of great emotions. May
you be able to give us many, many more." Met, Andrea Chenier, 30th
September 2002(Uchem i okiem Basi Jakubowskiej) Basia Jakubowska,
Muzyka21, nr 1/30, January 2003, Poland
Maria
premie...@aol.com (Premiereopera) wrote in message news:<20040613000552...@mb-m22.aol.com>...
Commspkmn
<< Either transposing is a crime or it isn't. Stealing a candy bar and
stealing a
million bucks are both crimes.
-david gable >>
I agree with you on this, David. And approving of some transpositions as
"tradition" doesn't really persuade me, either. After all, de Lucia made all
kinds of crazy transpositions, often with the knowledge and/or approval of the
composer. And at some point in the future, another tenor could cite Domingo's
transpositions (or Domingo's and Carreras's in "Sly") as a "tradition."
Best,
Ken
Premiereopera
>Date: 6/13/04 4:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <4qUyc.3397$Wr....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>
Of course not.Were you.
Ed
Leonard Tillman
Ed Rosen wrote:
>When I would see Corelli I would be
>thrilled by the way he sang this aria, and when
> I saw Corelli I would also be thrilled by the
> way HE sang this aria. >
StinkyShorts Boleman asks:
>Were you also thrilled by the way Corelli sang
> this aria?
Step out of your latrine hole, Bole, - and learn to read...... On second
thought, leap back into your hole, Bole. You'll never learn to read.
We know that you're full of caca - unless you can demonstrate to our
satisfaction that you contain an air-bubble or two, contradicting the
term "full".
Leonard Tillman
Premiereopera
>Date: 6/13/04 9:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <819ae343.04061...@posting.google.com>
>
>I have very many live recordings of Maestro Domingo from the earliest
>to the latest and he never transposed anything the way Mr. Rosen says.
>Yes, he transposes some high notes, but not the "entire scenes"
Well, here's an example or two.
As long ago as 1994 he transposed the entire "Sleale" scene from Forza down a
half tone- putting baritone Chernov at a very uncomfortably low tessiture.
In Otello he has transposed almost the entire Act 2 down a half tone for a
number of years- and still can't hack it. And it makes things difficult for the
Iago.
In Pique Dame he transposes scenes and ensembles down, to avoid two high B's.
He lowers these a full tone, and this also involves other singers.
Ed
Premiereopera
>men seemed to perform exclusively for themselves (each other) as they
>brought the harmonies of Giordano's music to the surface. Such
>evenings are rare in opera. If you are lucky enough to witness one
>such performance, you may only say, "Grazie.." and preferably in a
>whisper. Therefore, it was insignificant that Domingo performed "un
>di all'azzuro spazio" transposed one tone down. He has sung this aria
>in the original key for many years, and recordings are available. The
>final top noted resonated with unbelievable force, expression, and
>triumph that Domingo communicated to the audience "Yes! I can still
>sing it!"
No, he still can't. That final note that you say resonated with "unbelievable
force" was only an Ab- a note that any baritone can sing. And the one night I
saw it, resonate would hardly be the term I would use.
That was another opera in which many transpositions were used that also
involved other singers, such as a good part of Act 2, including his Credi al
destino- with three or four abrupt and jarring key changes when he sang, then
back when Roucher sang, and then lowered again when Domingo sang.
Please. Adore him all you like. He has certainly had a long and successful
career. But don't try to make virtues of weaknesses.
Ed
Jim OlsEn
"Premiereopera" <premie...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040613101725...@mb-m02.aol.com...
Ed, are any of those among the ones that you have purloined and sell sans
permission?
Jim OlsEn
Ed, two questions:
1. Are you implying that Domingo has stolen something?
2. Are you now selling candy bars from your website, and did you pay for
them?
donpaolo
DonP.
"Capa0848" <capa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040612204407...@mb-m14.aol.com...
Drakejake
dramatic tenors must have a working range that goes up at least to high B flat.
This note should be easily and reliably produced. A B natural may be ventured
from time to time. Such tenors are not expected to sing high C's in live
performance. If the transpositions employed by a singer suggest that he
doesn't have the working range usually required for his type of voice and his
roles, it is time to switch rep or retire.
Jake Drake
Premiereopera
>As long ago as 1994 he transposed the entire "Sleale" scene from Forza down a
>half tone
Make the year 1977, since he does it in the run he did that season. I have a
wonderful house tape, that finds Domingo in wonderful voice, but he does lower
the entire Sleale scene, allowing Milnes to sing a high Bb with him. This note
is written as a B natural, but becomes a Bb transposed down 1/2. tone.
Ed