"Iago had a handkerchief..."
Hans Aafloey
"Iago had a handkerchief and i have a fan ",
Scarpia sings in first act of Tosca, thereby referring
to Verdi's Othello opera.
Was it usual opera composers refering to each other like
this ?
Could it possibly be any logical connection between Scarpia
and Iago, or was it just ment as amusement for the composer
and the listeners ?
Any opinions out there ?
Hans Aafloy
Benjamin Rous
It could just as well refer to the original Shakespeare play , couldn't
it ? I've always thought so . Maybe it's both . The conmnection between
Iago and Scarpia is , of course , the theme of jealousy : Scarpia wants
to drive Mario and Floria apart , Iago wants to do the same thing with
Otello and Desdemona .
Benjamin Rous
John Lynch
Tosca is set in 1800. Verdi's Otello had its first performance in 1887.
Scarpia must be referring to Shakespeare's Othello, written before 1616,
don't you think?
Hans Aafloey wrote:
>
> "Iago had a handkerchief and i have a fan ",
>
> Scarpia sings in first act of Tosca, thereby referring
> to Verdi's Othello opera.
>
> Was it usual opera composers refering to each other like
> this ?
>
> Could it possibly be any logical connection between Scarpia
> and Iago, or was it just ment as amusement for the composer
> and the listeners ?
>
> Any opinions out there ?
>
> Hans Aafloy
--
John Lynch
Brian Newhouse
> Tosca is set in 1800. Verdi's Otello had its first performance in 1887.
> Scarpia must be referring to Shakespeare's Othello, written before 1616,
> don't you think?
Or even Cinthio's original tale, which was Shakespeare's source? Seems
rather obscure, but so would Shakespeare for a royalist pillar of the
establishment like Scarpia in 1800--he would more likely have been a
strict neoclassicist for whom Shakespeare was deplorably bloody, messy and
vulgar.
In any case, I'm sure if Puccini had intended a bit of intertextuality he
would have quoted Verdi's music.
> Hans Aafloey wrote:
> >
> > "Iago had a handkerchief and i have a fan ",
> >
> > Scarpia sings in first act of Tosca, thereby referring
> > to Verdi's Othello opera.
> >
> > Was it usual opera composers refering to each other like
> > this ?
> >
> > Could it possibly be any logical connection between Scarpia
> > and Iago, or was it just ment as amusement for the composer
> > and the listeners ?
> >
> > Any opinions out there ?
> >
> > Hans Aafloy
>
> --
> John Lynch
>
> jly...@ultranet.com
> jly...@fas.harvard.edu
--
Brian Newhouse
newh...@mail.crisp.net
Hans Aafloey
> Or even Cinthio's original tale, which was Shakespeare's source? Seems
> rather obscure, but so would Shakespeare for a royalist pillar of the
> establishment like Scarpia in 1800--he would more likely have been a
> strict neoclassicist for whom Shakespeare was deplorably bloody, messy and
> vulgar.
>
> In any case, I'm sure if Puccini had intended a bit of intertextuality he
> would have quoted Verdi's music.
Well, according to most stage settings of Tosca, Scarpia had a
large library, and could possibly have read Shakespeare, but
nevertheless it sounds more likely that Puccini referred to
his native and contemporary colleague...
Hans
JMonk
Mozart in the finale dinning scence of Don Giovanni refers to Martin y
Soler, Giuseppe Sarti, and himself.
Hans Aafloey wrote in article <33D30D...@kvatro.no>...
Brian Fairtile
Benjamin Rous <di...@demeern.sgi.com> wrote:
>It could just as well refer to the original Shakespeare play , couldn't
>it ?
Since _Tosca_ takes place in 1800, I think Scarpia *has* to be
referring to Shakespeare. Verdi's _Otello_ was only premiered in
1887.
--
Linda B. Fairtile
Astoria, New York
fm...@earthlink.net
Michael Black
John Lynch wrote:
> Tosca is set in 1800. Verdi's Otello had its first performance in
> 1887.
> Scarpia must be referring to Shakespeare's Othello, written before
> 1616,
> don't you think?
>
Yes, but Tosca had it's first performance in 1900. Therefore, Puccini
could be referring to either Verdi's Otello or Shakespeare's Othello.
--
Michael Black's Opera House-------http://www.stairway.bc.ca/bjorling/
Youngstown Opera Guild------------http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/2088/
Dana Opera Society----------------http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/6530/
Jussi Rules!!!
Lis K. Froding
In article <33D30D...@kvatro.no>,
Hans Aafloey <ha...@kvatro.no> wrote:
>"Iago had a handkerchief and i have a fan ",
>
>Scarpia sings in first act of Tosca, thereby referring
>to Verdi's Othello opera.
>
>Was it usual opera composers refering to each other like
>this ?
>
>Hans Aafloy
"Les Contes d'Hoffmann" sort of takes place during a performance of
"Don Giovanni".
Lis
John Lynch
Lis K. Froding wrote:
>
> "Les Contes d'Hoffmann" sort of takes place during a performance of
> "Don Giovanni".
Dunno about that, but there is a reference to Don Giovanni in the
Antonia act when Franz sings a sort of "Notte e giorno, faticar" aria.
s-...@post6.tele.dk
In article <33D3C74C...@cyberdude.com>,
My God, Michael Black, don't you know a thing! When you write something
in a historical context, you get these things right! The only thing they
could talk about is Shakespeare's Othello. The librettists of Tosca went
a long way to have all the details historically precise, so they would
not in any way talk about an opera, 87 years before it was written. The
cleverness is, that they could count upon their audience knowing the
piece, if not otherwise then from the opera by Verdi. Your ignorance
never ceases to amaze!
Steffen
Playwright
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Robert Long
On Mon, 21 Jul 1997 09:18:55 +0200, Hans Aafloey <ha...@kvatro.no>
wrote:
|"Iago had a handkerchief and i have a fan ",
|
|Scarpia sings in first act of Tosca, thereby referring
|to Verdi's Othello opera.
Or (less likely) to the original Shakespeare.
|Was it usual opera composers refering to each other like
|this ?
No, but there is the famous bit in the last act of Don Giovanni where
the stage band strikes up with a tune from La Cosa Rara (Paisiello?
No, I think it was earlier.) and Leporello sings, "Bravi, 'Cosa
Rara'!" when he recognizes the tune. This bit is there primarily to
set up the joke that follows, when the band launches into "Non piu
andrai" from Mozart's own _Le Nozze_ and Leporello has a line about
being only too familiar with *that* music. The joke is that the
original Leporello had been playing Figaro in Le Nozze and, therefore,
singing "Non piu andrai."
|Could it possibly be any logical connection between Scarpia
|and Iago, or was it just ment as amusement for the composer
|and the listeners ?
The old Ricordi libretto tranlates the line (very freely) as, "'Twas a
'kerchief lit Othello's jealous fire,/Now shall this fragile fan rouse
Tosca's ire!" In other words, the traslator if not the librettist
makes it plain that Scarpia plans to use the fan much as Iago used the
handkerchief--to arouse jealousy and thus gain his sinster ends.
Considering the opera as a whole, I don't think there can be serious
doubt about this being the reason for including the fan and the line.
It's important that the sinisterness of Baron Scarpia be established
immediately. The Sacristan's fearful attitude toward him is the
primary means by which that is conveyed; Scarpia's own lines,
including the reference to Iago, do so more subtly. The rest is, of
course, up to the baritone.
__
I may respect my employer's opinions,
but I don't have to share them.
E-mail to: bob...@taconic.net
(The header may be altered
to foil autospam software.)
Michael Black
Let me clarify my "ignorance". First off, I am with the majority that
thinks Puccini and his librettists were referring to Shakespeare's
Othello. BUT, the librettists could very well have been thinking of
Verdi's Otello when they wrote about that. I don't know if a similar
line is in the original play or not. So, in a sense the librettists
could very well have been referring to Verdi's Otello since that opera
premiered a couple years back. Even though the plot takes place in 1800
it could refer to Verdi's Otello regardless because either way you're
still talking about the original Othello which as we know was written a
couple hundred years back. Now, if the librettists were to refer to a
modern day play of 1900, then that would obviously be wrong. But the
librettists could easily be talking about both Otello and Othello.
Does that help STEFFEN? Or are you too ignorant to do any actual
thinking?
Michael Black
s-...@post6.tele.dk wrote:
> Your ignorance
> never ceases to amaze!
No, YOUR ignorance never ceases to amaze ME you asshole!
Sallymezzo
In article <33D481...@ultranet.com>, John Lynch <jly...@ultranet.com>
writes:
>>
>> "Les Contes d'Hoffmann" sort of takes place during a performance of
>> "Don Giovanni".
>
>
>Dunno about that, but there is a reference to Don Giovanni in the
>Antonia act when Franz sings a sort of "Notte e giorno, faticar" aria.
>
Nicklausse actually sings the phrase "notte e giorno mal dormire" in
the prologue. The tales are told during the first intermission and then
the rest of the performance of DonGiovanni (with Stella as prima donna).
BTW, Does anyone know which role Stella is singing? I have forgotten
whether it's actually in the score. Certainly "prima donna" implies Donna
Anna today, and Nathanael says she sings "d'une voiz ferme et sure",
but I *think* Donna Elvira may have been more important then (really
just a guess) Maybe it's just that I like Elvira's music better than
Anna's...
Sally mouzon
Enzo62
>The tales are told during the first intermission and then
>the rest of the performance of DonGiovanni (with Stella as prima donna).
BTW, Does anyone know which role Stella is singing? I have forgotten
whether it's actually in the score. Certainly "prima donna" implies Donna
Anna today, and Nathanael says she sings "d'une voiz ferme et sure", but I
*think* Donna Elvira may have been more important then (really just a
guess) Maybe it's just that I like Elvira's music better than Anna's...>
Many important divas of the 19th century considered neither Donna Anna or
Donna Elvira the plum role in Don Giovanni, but rather Zerlina. Both
Maria Malibran and Adelina Patti had the capacity to sing any of the
female parts in Don Giovanni, but opted for Zerlina. Rosanna Carteri, a
noted Zerlina in this century, has this to say about their preference: "I
understand perfectly why Patti insisted on singing Zerlina in all the
lyric theaters. It is an exquisite role, and one written in so expert a
manner that she wins over the public from her first entrance."
Enzo Bordello
James Jorden
In a literal sense, Scarpia would have been referring to Shakespeare's
"Othello", a play that was always in the repertoire of the greatest
actors, and as such familiar to an educated public, even those who had
not read Shakespeare.
But the reference in Puccini's opera would have been particularly
resonant for the Italian operagoing public of the time, since Verdi's
"Otello" the biggest event of the previous generation and of course
constantly in the repertoire of every major Italian theater.
--
james jorden
jjo...@ix.netcom.com
http://www.anaserve.com/~parterre
"What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything, and the
value of nothing."
-- Oscar Wilde
Lis K. Froding
In article <33D481...@ultranet.com>,
John Lynch <jly...@ultranet.com> wrote:
>Lis K. Froding wrote:
>
>> "Les Contes d'Hoffmann" sort of takes place during a performance of
>> "Don Giovanni".
>
>Dunno about that, but there is a reference to Don Giovanni in the
>Antonia act when Franz sings a sort of "Notte e giorno, faticar" aria.
>
>John Lynch
John, did you see the Met telecast of this? There's a "Don Juan" poster
on the wall in Luther's Tavern. Joanne Woodward is sitting in front of
it during her introductory remarks.
The libretto from the Domingo/Sutherland recording says that "A performance
of Mozart's Don Giovanni is taking place offstage." Then Lindorf goes on
to say "The first act of Don Giovanni has just finished". Not too long
afterwards Luther says "Come on, lads, let's get this room ready - the
first act of Don Giovanni is about to end."
And in the epologue of the telecast we're back to the tavern with the
poster on the wall, where at the very end Hoffmann (Shicoff), staggering
about in a semi-drunken stupor, tears the poster down and uses the back of
it to start scribbling feverishly on, inspired by the muse.
Lis
Brian Newhouse
> In a literal sense, Scarpia would have been referring to Shakespeare's
> "Othello", a play that was always in the repertoire of the greatest
> actors, and as such familiar to an educated public, even those who had
> not read Shakespeare.
>
> But the reference in Puccini's opera would have been particularly
> resonant for the Italian operagoing public of the time, since Verdi's
> "Otello" the biggest event of the previous generation and of course
> constantly in the repertoire of every major Italian theater.
>
> --
But surely if Puccini had intended this allusion to resound in the ears of
the audience, he would have actually quoted Verdi's _Otello_ at that
moment, as he would quote his own _Boheme_ in the street-singer's song of
_Tabarro_. And he doesn't do anything of the sort. Anything else is a
purely private allusion, and a Puccini opera is not a James Joyce novel.
--
Brian Newhouse
newh...@mail.crisp.net
John Lynch
Sorry, Lis, I must have misunderstood your statement to mean that there
was a musical allusion to Don Giovanni in the opera.
Lis K. Froding wrote:
>
> In article <33D481...@ultranet.com>,
> John Lynch <jly...@ultranet.com> wrote:
>
> >Lis K. Froding wrote:
> >
> >> "Les Contes d'Hoffmann" sort of takes place during a performance of
> >> "Don Giovanni".
> >
> >Dunno about that, but there is a reference to Don Giovanni in the
> >Antonia act when Franz sings a sort of "Notte e giorno, faticar" aria.
> >
> >John Lynch
>
> John, did you see the Met telecast of this? There's a "Don Juan" poster
> on the wall in Luther's Tavern.
TomKauf2
Enzo Bordello wrote:
>Many important divas of the 19th century considered neither Donna Anna or
Donna Elvira the plum role in Don Giovanni, but rather Zerlina. Both
Maria Malibran and Adelina Patti had the capacity to sing any of the
female parts in Don Giovanni, but opted for Zerlina. >
This prompted me to check my cast lists for London and Paris (where Don
Giovanni, was very popular at that time--in fact my guess is that it was
the most popular of all operas in 19th century London).
Not only Malibran and Patti specialized in Zerlina, but even Persiani.
Pasta also sang it frequently, as did Tadolini. , Giulia Grisi sang
Zerlina early in her career, but then switched to Donna Anna. Tietjens
also sang Donna Anna regularily.
On the other hand, the least important of the three prima donnas in the
company usually wound up as Elvira.
Perhaps the most interesting Don Giovanni of all was at Covent garden July
6, 1861. Grisi was Donna Anna, Patti Zerlina. Ortolani-Tiberini (an
impostant singer in Italy) was Zerlina, and the great Tamberlick was Don
Ottavio. Faure was the Don, Formes Leporello, and Ronconi (now well past
his prime, and once a great Don himself) was Masetto.
Tom
s-...@post6.tele.dk
In article <19970723114...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Michael Aspinall has written an article on the subject of the changed
views on DG, introducing the point that it was the rise of Salzburg
standards (i.e. German provincial theatre standards) that led to the
'modern' approach to the piece. Aspinall's article was printed in a book
to celebrate the 70th birthday of Italian musicologist Fedele d'Amico
(around 1990, I think).
Steffen
Gilion
Fine language Black, dickweed of the day
Galion(Gil...@aol.com)
jussi sucks
Lis K. Froding
In article <33D30D...@kvatro.no>,
Hans Aafloey <ha...@kvatro.no> wrote:
>"Iago had a handkerchief and i have a fan ",
>
>Scarpia sings in first act of Tosca, thereby referring
>to Verdi's Othello opera.
>
>Was it usual opera composers refering to each other like
>this ?
>
>Hans Aafloy
In the last act of The Barber of Seville, do Rosina and the "music
teacher" not sing and play something that sounds like it's by
Mozart?
Lis
James Jorden
s-...@post6.tele.dk wrote:
> Michael Aspinall has written an article on the subject of the changed
> views on DG, introducing the point that it was the rise of Salzburg
> standards (i.e. German provincial theatre standards) that led to the
> 'modern' approach to the piece.
That's probably right. Since the 19th century, pride of place in any
German theater has gone to the leading dramatic soprano, which is why
the Marschallin is considered the lead in "Der Rosenkavalier" (not the
title part) or why the Contessa and Donna Anna take their calls
subsequent to Susanna and Zerlina (respectively).
Brian Newhouse
In article <5r5ggi$l...@sjx-ixn7.ix.netcom.com>, Lis K. Froding
<too...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
[snip]
> In the last act of The Barber of Seville, do Rosina and the "music
> teacher" not sing and play something that sounds like it's by
> Mozart?
>
> Lis
>
Assuming the Rosina has not thrown out Rossini's perfectly lovely and
perfectly characteristic "Contro un cor" in favor of one of her party
pieces, the aria in question is actually Dr. Bartolo's response to what he
considers to be an excessively fancy coloratura showpiece. The music, to
me, sounds more like a takeoff on Cimarosa or even Paisiello--those simple
strings alla siciliana--than an homage to Mozart.
--
Brian Newhouse
newh...@mail.crisp.net
s-...@post6.tele.dk
In article <33D6BF...@ix.netcom.com>,
Perhaps. But also the plot in DG is much more focussed on the intricasies
of Don G.'s attempt to get Zerlina laid.