La Gioconda: Who's on First?
Bill
[and maybe the neighborhood] I sort of choose a good Gioconda. Which
performance [commercial or pirate] would you say is best for such
enjoyment?
Bill Reque/SF
Tom Kaufman
(IMHO, of course)
Tenors rule
Dom Tomas
Tom Kaufman
URL of web site:
www.geocities.com/Vienna/8917/index.html
Klytemnest
for the dramatic soprano. I think the recording with Caballe, Baltsa, Milnes,
and Ghiaurov is quite good. Caballe is fantastic - her "Suicidio" is very
moving. Baltsa has the easy top that is necessary for this role. Milnes is
great. Ghiaurov is past his prime here, which I believe ended around 1976.
The voice is just startign to fall apart. It's not just a matter of technique
- his very timbre began to disintegrate. Very sad. He was an incredible bass!
Overall, I would say this is the best Gioconda around.
I think the Callas/Cappuccilli recording is good too, but, from what I
remember, it is heavily cut, which is very frustrating for me. This is
probably one of the reasons why I don't have many of Callas' recordings. All
those cuts really make me mad. There is so much music that we never get to
hear!
The live Gioconda from SF with Scotto/Lilova/Toczyska/Mittelmann and Furlanetto
is not bad. The mics are too close, so the sound on the recording does not
really pick up the reverb of the house, which, by the way, has wonderful
acoustics. So the singers' voices do not really "blossom". Scotto is in fine
shape, although she does seem to work very hard. This role was a big risk for
her. But considering that this is her first assumption of the role, the detail
and nuance she achieves is just incredible - which is quite predictable for
Scotto. Toczyska is fine. Kind of dull. Lilova is OK. Mittelmann is not
good - his heavy voice gets really swallowed on top. He gets through the role
by sheer strength and force. Furlanetto, one of the most beautiful bass voices
I have ever heard, is not in good shape here. He must have been indisposed.
His vocalism is not good at all, although he is very expressive and "becomes"
Alvise. The Pav is fine. Thanks to the prompter. Enough said.
If you want good old-fashioned singing, listen to the one with Tebaldi or
Suliotis.
Hey, has anyone out there heard the Gencer Gioconda? How is that one?
Mike Richter
The performance which catches fire for me is the Cerquetti/Simionato/del
Monaco/Bastianini. The only drawback is that the Decca/London CD
transfer suffers from their crude attempt to 'improve' the superb sound
on the original. You will have to cut the treble to get an acceptable
sound, but it's worth it. (I have the prerecroded tape release, which is
far superior sonically - but they had to fix what was almost ideal to
begin with.)
Note that this recording is about as subtle as a sledge hammer - and has
about as much impact.
Mike
Bill wrote:
>
> I gotta admit, when I simply want some glorious opera flooding the house
> [and maybe the neighborhood] I sort of choose a good Gioconda. Which
> performance [commercial or pirate] would you say is best for such
> enjoyment?
> Bill Reque/SF
--
mric...@cpl.net
http://mrichter.simplenet.com
CD-R http://resource.simplenet.com
andre35
yet. Sound not the greatest, the intensity is................IMHO, of course.
Andre
Ernani415
>Monaco/Bastianini.
I'd agree: this is a "must have" for all Gioconda fans. The only downside is
that the tempi seem somewhat rushed and that Del Monaco screams alot. Well,
that's kinda par for the course...
La Cerquetti is amazing. Pity this excellent soprano didn't have a longer
career.
e
GRNDPADAVE
>From: andre35 <and...@bellsouth.net>
>Date: Wed, 22 September 1999 02:39 PM EDT
>Message-id: <37E92273...@bellsouth.net>
>
>Milanov, Di Stefano, Warren, Elias; Prevatali-cond. I'm not sure if it is on
>CD
>yet. Sound not the greatest, the intensity is................IMHO, of course.
>Andre
Oh Lord, forgive me, but I think Andre is right on this one.
I am sold on Warren's scream at the conclusion of the opera. Di Stefano has
his problems, but there is enough velvet remaining to make him preferable to
the other Enzi (or is it Enzos).
Milanov has the pianissimo which is the sina qua non for the title role. I
love Plinio Clabassi in everything he sings. Elias is weak but that is
appropriate for Laura. Belen Amperan (sp) is a wonderful Cieca.
And Fernando Previtali is another of those underrated conductors who are
sneeringly referred to as "routinniers". (Fausto Cleva and Fritz Stiedry were
others).
So M. Andre, je vous salue.
==G/P Dave
Tom Kaufman
vehicle
for the dramatic soprano.
To a tenormaniac like me, tenors always rule. And the plot of La gioconda
9again, to me) revolves around Enzo's love for Laura--not Gioconda's love for
Enzo. And he gets his girl, thanks to La gioconda. But the main thing--he gets
the girl.
Now I had this very discussion some time ago with Don Riccardo di sopranomania.
We compared musical numbers, their importance and interest, and agreed it was a
draw. Historically, the work has been revived as often for great tenors as for
great dramatic sopranos. It was originally written for one of the greatest
tenors of the time (Julian Gayarre) and for an important soprano, Maddalena
Mariani-Masi. He was a household word; she was not.
A funny sidelight--I had never even noticed the soprano's "Enzo adorato" until
somebody (Enzo Bordello, I think) mentioned it on the net. And my own favorite
line: O Laura mia! --especially when sung by Gigli, has never been mentioned by
others.
I am truly a tenor maniac. And in the lopsided world of the tenor maniac
Tenors rule
De gustibus
Customoper
>that the tempi seem somewhat rushed and that Del Monaco screams alot. Well,
>that's kinda par for the course...
>
>La Cerquetti is amazing.
I must disagree. I think Cerquetti is overshadowed by all the other lead
singers. She hadn't the experience of a Del Moncaco, Simionato, Bastianini, or
Siepi. Of course, these are four of the centuries greates singers, so perhaps
it's not a fair comparison.
Still, she is the title role in this Gioconda. I find that her voice doesn't
"sit" on the lower notes at all. They sort of sound detached from the rest of
her voice, and are weak. Her top is thrilling, and her quality is great, but
still, for me she is the weak link in this cast. She also lacks some degree of
temperment here.
Best,
Ed
Enrique Eskenazi
wrote:
>I gotta admit, when I simply want some glorious opera flooding the
house
>[and maybe the neighborhood] I sort of choose a good Gioconda. Which
>performance [commercial or pirate] would you say is best for such
>enjoyment?
Though some people might like Caballe as Gioconda, I (being a Caballe's
buff as I am) simply feel she is wrong for the part, lacking the round
lower notes the role requires. That leaves aside her two performances I
know: the live one with Carreras, and the studio one with Pavarotti.
Great Giocondas are Arangi-Lombardi, Callas, Cerquetti, Milanov,
Gencer...And I would love to listen Caniglia singing the role!
The Arangi-Lombardi features also a splendid Ebe Stignani, and also A.
Granda, Gaetano Viviani and C. Rota (Molajoli cond. 1931) available on
Arkadia 'the78's' in good sound.
Callas recorded the rol in 1952 in wonderful voice, with Barbieri, Neri,
Silveri and...well, Poggi. The main drawback of a very enjoyable
recording, on Cetra.
She recorded it again in 1959 (EMI), with not a such a luscious voice
but a deepened interpretation. Cossotto, Vinco, Companeez, Cappuccilli
and Miranda Ferrero complete the cast. Again, the tenor is not memorable
IMO.
There is commercial Tebaldi with the valuable Enzo from Bergonzi (Decca)
And I also enjoy the Gencer, with Gianni Raimondi, Guelfi, Ruggero
Raimondi, anna di Stasio and Franca Mattiucci, conducted by Bartoletti
(1971). Live from Opera di Rome, different labels (pirate)
Ant the studio Gioconda with Cerquetti, Del Monaco, Simionato,
Bastianini, Siepi, Gavazzeni cond. (1958) if one of the soundest
versions, very recommendable (Decca/London)
Regards
---
Enrique
eske...@teleline.es
Io chi sono? Eh, non lo so.
-Nol sapete?
Quasi no.
G Riggs
andre35 wrote in message <37E92273...@bellsouth.net>...
>Milanov, Di Stefano, Warren, Elias; Prevatali-cond. I'm not sure if it is
on CD
>yet. Sound not the greatest, the intensity is................IMHO, of
course.
>Andre
I have to agree with the choice of interpreter for the title role:
Milanov!! But it's frustrating not to feel more comfortable with this
particular set. There are places where Milanov is completely her marvelous
self (not least her famed "Ah, come t'amo" which, thank goodness, is vintage
here), and spots where one can only wish she were. One can still recognize
a great interpretation, but even so. . . . With all that, Di Stefano has
his problems too, etc., etc.
Perhaps, I find myself too dissatisfied with most of the Giocondas available
for my current recommendation to be really useful to anyone(!), but there's
one recording that never fails to thrill me -- and I'm grateful for that!
It's just that it's hideously expensive.
To wit: for a premium of a couple of hundred dollars(!!!!), the Metropolitan
Opera Guild ships a 1946 Met b'cast -- in surprisingly good sound
considering -- featuring Zinka Milanov's Gioconda in peak form and the young
Richard Tucker's Enzo where he's at his most lyrical. Leonard Warren and
Rise Stevens sing Barnaba and Laura. IMO, this is a once-in-a-lifetime
cast. Since, here in New York, the Met has clamped down hard on any other
pressings of "live" Met material, I don't have any immediate knowledge of
any more reasonable CD pressings of this incredible performance. I am
generally aware that there are some other "live" Milanov Giocondas
available, but I only know for sure of one from 1939 with Martinelli. I may
be in a minority, but I find Martinelli's Enzo dry and constricted in the
extreme. He may have nice, long breath, "buon' fiato," and, as a musician,
he may be able to phrase like a dream, but the basic tone is so pinched as
to seriously hamper, IMO, a listener's engagement with him as a romantic
hero (well, hmmm, I guess Enzo is not really a full-fledged hero -- a bit of
a cad really -- but his music suggests the archetypal romantic lead and
ought really to sound that way. . . .shouldn't it?)
If anyone knows how or where to obtain a reasonable CD pressing of the
Milanov *TUCKER* Gioconda from *1946*, please let's all hear about it.
Thanks.
Cordially,
Geoffrey Riggs
--
==============================================
The Collector's Guide to Opera Recordings and Videos
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/7023
The Collector's Guide to Books on Opera
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/7023/reading.htm
==============================================
andre35
When you sat in house on a "good" Milanov night, and she spun out
*that* note, which seemed to float everywhere, and emanate from everywhere,
it was two ears, two hooves and the tail. The very essence of what opera
is/was? about.
And, I'm as much a tenormaniac as anyone else here, just not as
knowledgeable.
Salud, amor, y pesetas
Andre
andre35
that? I'm not Italian. I'll have to consult with Don P. or Don Ron.
Pace
Andre
GRNDPADAVE wrote:
> >Who's on First?
> >From: andre35 <and...@bellsouth.net>
> >Date: Wed, 22 September 1999 02:39 PM EDT
> >Message-id: <37E92273...@bellsouth.net>
> >
> >Milanov, Di Stefano, Warren, Elias; Prevatali-cond. I'm not sure if it is on
> >CD
> >yet. Sound not the greatest, the intensity is................IMHO, of course.
> >Andre
John Yohalem
>I gotta admit, when I simply want some glorious opera flooding the house
>[and maybe the neighborhood] I sort of choose a good Gioconda. Which
>performance [commercial or pirate] would you say is best for such
>enjoyment?
No recommendations, but I must bless Bill for saying this.
La Gioconda separates true opera lovers from hoity-toity dabblers.
REAL opera lovers adore every silly note of the damn thing.
Has anyone here heard "I Lituani"?
Hans Lich
John Yohalem
ench...@herodotus.com
"Saepe fidelis"
Bill Reque
CD-ROM of the SF Opera has one of Gencer's better performances....and
she knows right where the microphone is.
Bill
Mike Richter
especially memorable on video.
I wonder why it's not in commercial distribution?
Perhaps it has something to do with its candidacy for worst opera
broadcast of all time?
Mike
GregF NC wrote:
>
> I haven't really heard too much said about the Tebaldi, Bergonzi, Merrill
> recording of Gioconda. I happen to like it very much. The Milanov, Di
> Stefano, Warren is also a favorite.
>
> I've heard the Caballe, Pavarotti, Milnes recording. But like many of
> Pavarotti's recordings, this one seems to lack any kind of fire. It's almost
> like all the parts were sung separately and at different times and then mixed
> together by the engineers.
>
> Just my opinion of course.
>
> Greg F(in North Carolina)
Joe Caporiccio
>
> Actually no, tenors do not rule, especially not in La Gioconda. It's a vehicle
The Recently released Scotto Goiconda should have been good, but the
problem isNOT the close miking - it just sounds that way because I
suspect that the sound was taken from a hissy video, so the CD company
(Gala??) heavily noise gated the tape and it sounds poor andvery
unnatural!
Also, as I recall the Callas recording only has one cut in the last act.
JuanM92052
As much as I like Caballe - and think that her recording with Pavarotti is
technically great - for my money - I would have to say that Callas beats
everyone else in the competition -
Her "Suicidio" is a marvel in interpretation, No doubt in anybodys mind what
Gioconda is going through at that time
Unfortunately I have not heard Milanovs recording - but most people recommend
it based on her "Enzo adorato" - which does not constitute the entire opera -
The bad thing about Callas recording is that the rest of the cast just does not
quite measure up to her - and in my opinion this is one of those operas - (like
Il Trovatore) where all the principals must be in great voice to make it
memorable -
Juan
GregF NC
Commspkmn
especially memorable on video.
I wonder why it's not in commercial distribution? >>
If you're talking about the 1979 San Francisco broadcast, it's availalbe on CD
from Gala.
Ken Meltzer
Ron D'Argenio
the minimum daily requirements for an Enzo. I'll leave it at that...
andre35 wrote:
--
Ron D'Argenio, aka Don Ron
CarusoDelMonacoCorelliGigliThillSchipaDiStefanoLauriVolpiPertileMelchior,etc. rules.
Ron D'Argenio
Ernani415 wrote:
>
>
> I'd agree: this is a "must have" for all Gioconda fans. The only downside is
> that the tempi seem somewhat rushed and that Del Monaco screams alot. Well,
> that's kinda par for the course...
>
> La Cerquetti is amazing. Pity this excellent soprano didn't have a longer
> career.
>
> e
--
Ron D'Argenio
Certainly my own "Tenor-mania" is rather unscientific and based on a rather
emotional reaction to the sound of the tenor voice. But leave it to Tom Kaufman to
be able to back up his words with an intensive laboratory research project. Bravo
Don Tomas!
Tom Kaufman wrote:
> >Actually no, tenors do not rule, especially not in La Gioconda. It's a
> vehicle
> for the dramatic soprano.
>
--
Roger M. Siegel
Harshaw, Vaghi, conducted by Emil Cooper) is available on a 2-CD Myoto
issue, 2 MCD 952.127. Although not likely to be had in the US, I picked
mine up at Tower in London (Picadilly) a couple of years ago, and I'm sure
it's also available through the many on-line European and Canadian dealers.
I have never heard the Met version, so I cannot offer any comparison to that
official issue. The sound on Myoto seems to be well within the acceptable
range for live off the air recordings of the period. By the way, Myoto
notes that in order to get the complete opera on two discs, it had to cut
about three minutes of the Dance of the Hours -- not a great sacrifice of
music when compared to the price of an additional disc.
Hope this is of interest.
Roger Siegel
Michael E. Miller/Robert E. Seletsky
> Klytemnest wrote:
> > ...I think the Callas/Cappuccilli recording is good too, but, from what I
> > remember, it is heavily cut, which is very frustrating for me...
> Also, as I recall the Callas recording only has one cut in the last act.
The Callas/Cappuccilli recording (EMI) is NOT cut. On LP, a 1-minute cut
was made for time, but was restored on CD as early as 1987. Also, what
about the first Callas recording on Cetra, done in 1952?! That huge,
glowing, brilliant voice and the incredible reading of the role, for me,
is incomparably better than the wobbly, weak-voiced skinny Callas of
1959. Besides, the Cetra has a better cast: Barbieri is a great Laura,
and the others seem to know what they're doing much more than in their
blank reading of the 1959 Callas/Cappuccilli/Cossoto version.
Bob Seletsky
Mike Richter
(IMHO) in releasing that performance unless it is in a set of unintended
comedies. I videotaped the performance and return to almost any segment
when I want a clear demonstration of stage disasters.
Mike
--
Commspkmn
<< Truly, I was being sarcastic. Gala shows remarkably poor judgement
(IMHO) in releasing that performance unless it is in a set of unintended
comedies. I videotaped the performance and return to almost any segment
when I want a clear demonstration of stage disasters. >>
Mike-
I assumed you were being sarcastic about recommending that Gioconda, but not
necessarily sarcastic about whether it had been commercially released.
Anyway, the performance is available, for better or for worse.
Best,
Ken Meltzer
donpaolo
DonP.
Ron D'Argenio <rdar...@erols.com> wrote in article
<37EA2098...@erols.com>...
> Obviously you have a tough time with par.
>
> Ernani415 wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I'd agree: this is a "must have" for all Gioconda fans. The only
downside is
> > that the tempi seem somewhat rushed and that Del Monaco screams alot.
Well,
> > that's kinda par for the course...
> >
> > La Cerquetti is amazing. Pity this excellent soprano didn't have a
longer
> > career.
> >
> > e
>
STF Filmz
former is more heavyweight in its vocalism, the latter more bel canto. Both
interpretations work. (I got the live Caballe - 3 discs - for 3.99, due to what
I must assume was a pricing error. Oops, as they say.)
donpaolo
& wanting the story teller to continue, as in: Und zoooo?
Forget it!
DonP.
andre35 <and...@bellsouth.net> wrote in article
<37E990E8...@bellsouth.net>...
donpaolo
taste, Don Andre & Don Dave!
DonP.
GRNDPADAVE <grndp...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990922174025...@ng-ba1.aol.com>...
botkin
Her perfect "come t'amo" from the live 57 Met broadcast brought a 13 year
old boy from East Texas into classical music.
botkin
exchange where, this summer, both the 39 and the 46 Gioconda's showed up.
I now have 4: 39 (Met), 46 (Met - actually on tape), 53 (New Orleans), 59
(Roma). As well, the come t'amo from the 57 Met broadcast from the Milanov
In memoriam Legato Classics 2 cd set. The 46 was found there earlier and
recorded from the finder this summer.
Jim
botkin
is an opera of choruses.
I prefer Gioconda.
Jim
John Yohalem <ench...@herodotus.com> wrote in article
<7sc3h0$5...@news-central.tiac.net>...
> Bill wrote in message <37E8D9B8...@ix.netcom.com>...
>
>
Capa081348
>From: "John Yohalem" ench...@herodotus.com
>Date: Wed, 22 September 1999 09:53 PM EDT
>Message-id: <7sc3h0$5...@news-central.tiac.net>
>>[and maybe the neighborhood] I sort of choose a good Gioconda. Which
>>performance [commercial or pirate] would you say is best for such
>>enjoyment?
>
>
>No recommendations, but I must bless Bill for saying this. La Gioconda
separates true opera lovers from hoity-toity dabblers.
>REAL opera lovers adore every silly note of the damn thing.
>
>Hans Lich
>
-----------------------------------------------
Hi, John
I hope that one can be an opera lover without loving every "silly note of the
damn thing", as you so aptly describe it.
In Act I the crowd, just a few minutes after being ready to kill La Cieca as a
witch, decides that she is obviously under heaven's protection.
In Act II, La Gioconda is about to stab Laura, and, moments later, decides to
save her.
Barnaba is a cardboard melodramatic villain -- one keeps waiting for him to
twirl his moustache. Enzo and Laura are confused to say the least.
Il Trovatore is a model of sensible dramaturgy compared to this silliness.
It affords some great opportunities for splendid singing, but as a drama it has
to be one of the two or three worst (not quite as bad as Puritani, of course)
of the "great" nineteenth century operas.
And one might say that it brought the curtain down on nineteenth century
Italian "Romantic" opera. Is there a "great" Italian opera after "Gioconda"
that doesn't pay at least a bit of attention to dramatic verisimilitude?
Of course, I suppose there are some that would argue that there are no "great"
operas after Gioconda -- that after Gioconda composers stopped writing operas
for singers; luckily, in my view, they had begun again (as Mozart had done long
before, and as Puccini was to do in the next generation) the process of
composing operas for audiences interested in the passionate entanglements of
believable human beings.
A dissenting voice
Pat Finley
Der Reine Tor
Luis Angel Catoni
> How strange that no one has recommended the Scotto/Pavarotti. It was
> especially memorable on video.
>
> I wonder why it's not in commercial distribution?
Maybe they were not able to edit the loud and clear "Povero Ponchielli" which came
from the hall just as the Suicidio ended.
HAPPY LISTENING / FELIZ ESCUCHA / FELICE ASCOLTO / FELIÇ ASCOLTAR
Luis Angel Catoni
barb...@bellsouth.net
Ho da fare un dramma buffo e non trovo l'argomento.
Luis Angel Catoni
Tom Kaufman wrote:
> A funny sidelight--I had never even noticed the soprano's "Enzo adorato" until
> somebody (Enzo Bordello, I think) mentioned it on the net. And my own favorite
> line: O Laura mia! --especially when sung by Gigli, has never been mentioned by
> others.
Well, I am a great Caballe admirer, and unfortunately, among the 40 or so roles I
saw her sing on stage Gioconda was not one of them. But I have heard her in the
role, both in studio and live performances. Live I have had the opportunity to see
few but interesting gicondas, and a special mention must be made of Angeles Gulin,
a huge voice if there was one, who made this her signature role. I also saw Bumbry
twice in Gioconda, in 1974, in great form, and in 1988 past her prime, but still
exciting. But I must admit that in 1974 her "Enzo adorato" melted not only me, but
everybody attending those performances at Barcelona's Liceu (10 DAYS TO REOPENING
OF THAT GREAT OPEERA HOUSE!!!!!!). It was a long sustained pianissimo with a very
tasteful resolution using a bit of portamento. Wonderful!!!
HAPPY LISTENING / FELIZ ESCUCHA / FELICE ASCOLTO / FELIÇ ASCOLTAR!!!!