Jewish characters in Opera
Charles E. Ehrlich
Inspired by the thread on r.m.o a week or so ago about Moslem characters
in opera, I was wondering today what opera characters are Jewish...
Let's exclude all Biblical characters (too obvious).
Let's also exclude characters which are only Jewish-by-interpretation and
not expressly Jewish (several Wagnerian characters, like Alberich, Mime,
Kundry, and so forth, have been interpreted as "Jewish" but are not
specifically).
Charles Ehrlich
Cambridge, Mass
Matthew B. Tepper
Well, there are a few in Richard Strauss' _Salome_; Rabbi David in
Mascagni's _L'amico Fritz_; John Adams made caricatures out of Henry
Kissinger in _Nixon in China_, and several more in _The Death of
Klinghoffer_; and leave us not forget Eleazar and his "daughter" Rachel
in Halévy's _La juive_.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
"Compassionate Conservatism?" * "Tight Slacks?" * "Jumbo Shrimp?"
Charlie
Oytello
La Traviyenta
Die Frau Mit der Schaettel
Don Jewvanni
A Mohel and the Night Visitors
( confess this is from Internet..i am not THAT funny) CH
As ever Charlie,who invites you to check out my live opera website at:
David Shengold
It's hard once you exclude biblically-based works.
Meyer Wolfsheim in THE GREAT GATSBY!
A few of the people in STREET SCENE- Abraham , Sam and Shirley Kaplan, at
least.
The title character in Weis' apparently dreadful DER POLNISCHE JUDE (1901),
given three times by the Met in 1921.
Virtually all the character's in Tamkin's THE DYBBUK (NYCO 1951) and other
treatments of S. Ansky's play.
Dov in Tippett's THE KNOT GARDEN.
Shylock and Jessica in Hahn's setting of LE MARCHAND DE VENISE.
Giselher Klebe wrote a version of JACOBOWSKY AND THE COLONEL premiered in
Hamburg with Arlene Saunders- so, Jakobowsky.
Isaac of York and Rebecca in both Sullivan and Pacini's settings of Scott's
IVANHOE.
Most of the characters in the Wasserstein/Drattell portion of CENTRAL PARK.
The Moneylender in Rachmaninoff's Pushkin-based COVETOUS KNIGHT.
Halévy also wrote a treatment of the wandering Jew legend: LE JUIF ERRANT.
-David Shengold
----------
In article <3881158E...@earthlink.net>, "Matthew B. Tepper"
<o...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>"Charles E. Ehrlich" wrote:
>>
>> Inspired by the thread on r.m.o a week or so ago about Moslem characters
>> in opera, I was wondering today what opera characters are Jewish...
>> Let's exclude all Biblical characters (too obvious).
>> Let's also exclude characters which are only Jewish-by-interpretation
and
>> not expressly Jewish (several Wagnerian characters, like Alberich, Mime,
>> Kundry, and so forth, have been interpreted as "Jewish" but are not
>> specifically).
>Well, there are a few in Richard Strauss' _Salome_; Rabbi David in
Charles E. Ehrlich
Thought of another...
Jakob Glock in The Fiery Angel by Prokofiev. I even saw this at Covent
Garden a few years back and remember wondering if it was meant to be
psuedo-mystical or anti-Semitic or both. Wonderful music, a shame about
the text.
Also, I suppose one can guess as to the religion of the victims of the
Inquisition in Don Carlo. Technically, the Inquisition only burned
(Catholic) heretics, but many of these were converted Jews alleged to
still be practicing Judaism.
Charles Ehrlich
Cambridge, Mass
Lis K. Froding
"Charles E. Ehrlich" <ehr...@wilma.widomaker.com> wrote:
>
>Inspired by the thread on r.m.o a week or so ago about Moslem characters
>in opera, I was wondering today what opera characters are Jewish...
>
>Let's exclude all Biblical characters (too obvious).
>
>Let's also exclude characters which are only Jewish-by-interpretation and
>not expressly Jewish (several Wagnerian characters, like Alberich, Mime,
>Kundry, and so forth, have been interpreted as "Jewish" but are not
>specifically).
Eleazar in La Juive.
Lis
Stuart Dashwood
Stuart
Charles E. Ehrlich <ehr...@wilma.widomaker.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSF.3.96.100011...@wilma.widomaker.com...
>
> Inspired by the thread on r.m.o a week or so ago about Moslem characters
> in opera, I was wondering today what opera characters are Jewish...
>
> Let's exclude all Biblical characters (too obvious).
>
> Let's also exclude characters which are only Jewish-by-interpretation and
> not expressly Jewish (several Wagnerian characters, like Alberich, Mime,
> Kundry, and so forth, have been interpreted as "Jewish" but are not
> specifically).
>
> Charles Ehrlich
> Cambridge, Mass
>
james jorden
character was simply known as "L'ebreo.")
james jorden
jjo...@ix.netcom.com
www.parterre.com
"Wit ought to be a glorious treat like caviar; never spread it about like
marmalade." - Noel Coward
james jorden
if she was Herodias in a former life, she was Jewish at that time. And since
at least one branch of Orthodox thought holds that it is the soul (rather than
the incarnation) that is actually Jewish*, Kundry would therefore still be
Jewish. Now, what her identity would be after her baptism in the third act is
subject to interpretation.
*thus explaining the validity of Orthodox conversions: the soul of the convert
was *always* Jewish; and now the body and mind are simply "recognizing" that
fact.
Mark D. Lew
"Charles E. Ehrlich" <ehr...@wilma.widomaker.com> wrote:
> Also, I suppose one can guess as to the religion of the victims of the
> Inquisition in Don Carlo. Technically, the Inquisition only burned
> (Catholic) heretics, but many of these were converted Jews alleged to
> still be practicing Judaism.
One could indeed guess, but given the time period and that they are
deputies from Flanders, the more obvious guess is that they are
Protestants. In the 1550s and 1560s Calvinism spread widely throughout
Flanders, especially among the middle class, for whom it was associated
with various political reforms. Initially much of the nobility was
supportive (eg, Posa). Ultimately the Habsburg government decided to firmly
oppose the movement, leading to civil war. Most of the Protestants fled to
the north where they founded the new state of Netherlands, while the area
which later became Belgium remained Habsburg and primarily Catholic.
It's not spelled out in detail in the opera, but it's pretty clear that
this political situation is what Carlos, Posa, the King and the Inquisitor
are arguing about. It's probably more explicit in Schiller.
mdl
Charles E. Ehrlich
> In article <Pine.BSF.3.96.100011...@wilma.widomaker.com>,
> "Charles E. Ehrlich" <ehr...@wilma.widomaker.com> wrote:
>
> > Also, I suppose one can guess as to the religion of the victims of the
> > Inquisition in Don Carlo. Technically, the Inquisition only burned
> > (Catholic) heretics, but many of these were converted Jews alleged to
> > still be practicing Judaism.
>
> One could indeed guess, but given the time period and that they are
> deputies from Flanders, the more obvious guess is that they are
> Protestants.
In my libretto, the heretics and the deputies from Flanders are two
separate groups. At the beginning of the auto-da-fe scene, the monks lead
the heretics on stage. Then Carlos appears with the Flemings. The
Flemings are eventually arrested, but is unclear whether they are thrown
onto the fire with the heretics. At any rate, it is clear that the
heretics and the Flemings are not the same people (although the monks
arguing for the arrest of the Flemings do call them heretics, too).
Of course, there are several versions of the libretto, so it is possible
that in yours the heretics led on by the monks to be burned are indeed
Flemish deputies for whom Carlos then intervenes. I'm not aware of a text
which has it that way, but I could be wrong.
[correct history snipped]
> It's not spelled out in detail in the opera, but it's pretty clear that
> this political situation is what Carlos, Posa, the King and the Inquisitor
> are arguing about. It's probably more explicit in Schiller.
It is explicit in the opera - that's the whole premise in any version.
But the identity of the hereitcs in the auto-da-fe scene is unclear (at
least in some versions of the libretto). Unfortunately, I am not familiar
with the original Schiller text, so I don't know.
In the mid-1500s, there were still plenty of "secret Jews" (practicing
Jews who were baptized and thus considered Catholic by the Inquisition) in
Spanish-controlled territories, so it is plausible that the heretics in
this scene were Jewish (unless you are using a libretto where they are
also the Flemish deputies).
Anyone familiar with Schiller who can identify the heretics more
positively? Not that Schiller necessarily identified them himself.
Charles Ehrlich
Cambridge, Mass
John Yohalem
>Let's also exclude characters which are only Jewish-by-interpretation and
>not expressly Jewish (several Wagnerian characters, like Alberich, Mime,
>Kundry, and so forth, have been interpreted as "Jewish" but are not
>specifically).
>
>Charles Ehrlich
>Cambridge, Mass
>
I like the theory, but since Kundry is expressly identified with Herodias in
the libretto, I don't think we can call her only "interpreted" as Jewish.
Indeed, she is the wandering Jewess, in her case wandering by reincarnation,
and her redemption at the conclusion shows that Wagner was not dead set
racial anti-Semite, or else that his philosophy was very confused which (as
we know from many other things) it sure was.
Offhand, the only ones I can think of are Eleazar and (by upbringing but not
birth) Rachel in La Juive, Rebecca and Isaac in all the various versions of
Ivanhoe (Der Templar und die Judin, etc.), Shylock and Jessica in Le
Marchand de Venise, and the peddlar in La Gazza Ladra. Oh, yeah, and the
"hero" of Street Scene (which has no hero) and his father and sister. And
Wolfshiem in The Great Gatsby, to be sure.
Hans Lich
John Brightshadow Yohalem
ench...@herodotus.com
"Isolda she was loath to go, she did not want to marry,
And all the way to England's shore she hollered like Old Harry.
'To travel with that tenor for a girl like me ain't no life,
I'll mix myself a dose of hooch and give some to that lowlife.'
Isolda's maid Brangaena didn't call the undertaker,
Instead she slipped a love draught in Isolda's cocktail shaker.
It makes me blush to write about the powers of that potion.
The way those two folks carried on you haven't any notion.
"Now poor King Mark was simple; no suspicion did he harbor
That every night his wife and Tris were mushing in the arbor.
Until by chance he came upon them, to their consternation,
In what the papers call a 'compromising situation'.
Now most kings you or I know would have acted kinda sour,
Not Mark. He struck an attitude and sang for half an hour...."
-- Newman Levy, _Opera Guyed_
Ethel Jean Saltz
>There are many Jewish characters in opera..for example:
>
> Oytello
> La Traviyenta
> Die Frau Mit der Schaettel
> Don Jewvanni
> A Mohel and the Night Visitors
>
>( confess this is from Internet..i am not THAT funny) CH
> As ever Charlie,who invites you to check out my live opera website at:
==========================
But isn't that Eastern European Jewish. Now for me, it has to
Hebrew-based to be really Jewish. Otherwise, it's simply Yiddish which
is a subset of Jewish. Jewish IS the Old Testament (Hebrew). So
howabout restating all this in Hebrew terms?
BTW, if you listen to a lot of Broadway stuff in Hebrew, you'll
understand the musicality of the Hebrew Language, superior to Yiddish,
which is middle german after all. How about Ladino -- now that is sexy
Jewish :)
Be-ahavah oo-ve-shalom, Queen Jean of Creekbend
Mac-Niet-Spin-Gal, 391 A.G. (after Galileo/5370)
mailto: nie...@airmail.net
Ethel Jean Saltz
<too...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>Inspired by the thread on r.m.o a week or so ago about Moslem characters
>>in opera, I was wondering today what opera characters are Jewish...
>>
=====================
Remember the Koran says Abraham was a Moslem :(
Ethel Jean Saltz
<o...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Well, there are a few in Richard Strauss' _Salome_; Rabbi David in
>Mascagni's _L'amico Fritz_; John Adams made caricatures out of Henry
>Kissinger in _Nixon in China_, and several more in _The Death of
>Klinghoffer_; and leave us not forget Eleazar and his "daughter" Rachel
>in Halévy's _La juive_.
=============================
What is Jewish about Kissinger? That's like saying Marx is Jewish.
besides I have a problem with excluding the Old Testament characters.
They are modern Jews. I am one of them.
Every Saul, David, Moses and Psalm are Jewish, period. Modern Jewish,
period. I am not letting other religions get by with re-engineered
definitions of what is a Jew. The Vatican now states that a Jew does
not accept Christ and the acceptance of Christ makes you a Christian.
So interpreting Saul as accepting Christ is re-engineering what a Jew
is, using music for religious political reasons. The Jewish character
in music has existed for 5000 years (actually probably less), depends
on what archeology comes up with next. Depends on which pharoah Moses
was under.
Kevin G.
<Pine.BSF.3.96.100011...@wilma.widomaker.com>,
"Charles E. Ehrlich" <ehr...@wilma.widomaker.com> wrote:
> Inspired by the thread on r.m.o a week or so ago about Moslem
> characters
> in opera, I was wondering today what opera characters are Jewish...
> Jewish-by-interpretation and
> not expressly Jewish (several Wagnerian characters, like Alberich,
> Mime,
> Kundry, and so forth, have been interpreted as "Jewish" but are not
> specifically).
I see there have been many answers already. I'd just like to add Harvey
Milk to the list.
Kevin G., long time lurker.
*zeno...@home.com*
> Charles Ehrlich
> Cambridge, Mass
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Karen Mercedes
>
> Inspired by the thread on r.m.o a week or so ago about Moslem characters
> in opera, I was wondering today what opera characters are Jewish...
>
> Let's exclude all Biblical characters (too obvious).
>
> Let's also exclude characters which are only Jewish-by-interpretation and
> not expressly Jewish (several Wagnerian characters, like Alberich, Mime,
> Kundry, and so forth, have been interpreted as "Jewish" but are not
> specifically).
I don't know the names of the Jewish characters in all of these operas,
but I do know they all have at least one Jewish character.
Halevy - LA JUIVE: Eleazar, Rachel
- LE JUIF ERRANT
Sullivan - IVANHOE: Rebecca, Isaac
Adams - THE DEATH OF KLINGHOFFER: Leon Klinghoffer, Marilyn Klinghoffer
Drogin - LOVE AND IDOLS: Susan
Markson - ANGEL LEVINE
White & Meier - DREYFUS: Alfred Dreyfus
Blitzstein/Lehrman - IDIOTS FIRST (one act opera paired with
KARLA in Lehrman's TALES OF MALAMUD)
Lehrman - SIMA
Lehrman - SUPPOSE A WEDDING
Kaufman - MASADA
Fink - THE CONQUISTADOR: Don Luis de Carvajal y de la Cueva
Amram - THE FINAL INGREDIENT
Spektor - THE LADY OF THE CASTLE
Binder - A GOAT FROM CHELM
And a number of operas based on Shakespeare's THE MERCHANT OF VENICE:
Faure - SHYLOCK: Shylock, Jessica
Foerster - JESSIKA: Shylock, Jessica
Pinzuti - I MERCANTE DI VENEZIA: Shylock, Jessica
Alpaerts - SHYLOCK: Shylock, Jessica
Beecham - THE MERCHANT OF VENICE: Shylock, Jessica
Castelnuovo-Tedesco - IL MERCANTE DI VENEZIA: Shylock, Jessica
Hahn - LE MARCHAND DE VENISE: Shylock, Jessica
Laufer - THE MERCHANT OF VENICE: Shylock, Jessica
Radu - SHYLOCK: Shylock, Jessica
de Saussine - LE MARCHAND DE VENISE: Shylock, Jessica
Dixon - SHYLOCK: Shylock, Jessica
Karen Mercedes
=====
There is delight in singing,
tho' none hear Beside the singer.
- Walter Savage Landor
-----
MY WEB PAGE: http://www.radix.net/~dalila/index.html
MY NEIL SHICOFF PAGE: http://www.radix.net/~dalila/shicoff/shicoff.html
George Murnu
>
> Inspired by the thread on r.m.o a week or so ago about Moslem characters
> in opera, I was wondering today what opera characters are Jewish...
>
> Let's exclude all Biblical characters (too obvious).
>
> Let's also exclude characters which are only Jewish-by-interpretation and
> not expressly Jewish (several Wagnerian characters, like Alberich, Mime,
> Kundry, and so forth, have been interpreted as "Jewish" but are not
> specifically).
>
> Cambridge, Mass
In Bretan's Golem there's the character of Rabbi Low and his daughter
Anna, plus the Golem itself of course.
Regards,
George
Charles E. Ehrlich
> What is Jewish about Kissinger? That's like saying Marx is Jewish.
Assuming you mean Karl Marx, he was baptized in 1824 at the age of six.
He was not raised Jewish.
Kissinger, as far as I am aware, was raised Jewish and has not to my
knowledge ever been baptized. I don't know him personally, but from what
I do know I would classify him as Jewish. He appears as a character in
Nixon in China. That makes him a Jewish character in opera.
> besides I have a problem with excluding the Old Testament characters.
In my original post posing this question, I excluded biblical characters
(not just from the Jewish scriptures, mind you) not because they are not
Jewish somehow, but because they were "too obvious" (my words in the
post).
I'm not sure where you're going with this, so I'll end here.
CEE
Mark D. Lew
"Charles E. Ehrlich" <ehr...@wilma.widomaker.com> wrote:
> In my libretto, the heretics and the deputies from Flanders are two
> separate groups. [...]
I always thought it was the deputies who got burned. I know the scene
mostly from the vocal score of the Italian 4-act version, but I haven't
studied it carefully -- so you're probably right.
mdl
David Shengold
That's in the version where the Calatravas oppose Alvaro as Leonora's spouse
for being half-Sephardic and not half-Incan: DIE MACHT DES SHIKSAS.
----------
In article <20000116171849...@ng-fi1.aol.com>,
andre35
[forgive spelling]
Marrano maybe, but................
Andre
donpaolo
God will NOT forgive you for this one. Tua Culpa.....
DonPaolo
andre35 <and...@bellsouth.net> wrote in article
<3884FCC1...@bellsouth.net>...
andre35
Careful, verrry careful. Di Luna, Calatrava, none of my people there.
On the other hand, you really think Colombus, Ohio was italian?
Amerigo Vespucci..........ha ha....it is to laugh!
I am here...planning...thinking...vendetta!!
Don Andre Edouard............where the hell are those mattresses? Start the sauce!
kos
(Not a very flattering portrayal, but typical of the time)
Matthew B. Tepper
>
> Did anyone mention the 6 Jews in SALOME?
> (Not a very flattering portrayal, but typical of the time)
I mentioned _Salome_.
Mark D. Lew
<and...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> But, how did De Luna arrive at calling Alvaro, "Sangue tinge di Mulatto?"
> [forgive spelling]
> Marrano maybe, but................
Marrano is no more accurate than Mulatto. The complaint against Alvaro is
his Native American blood. I would not call this an error in the libretto,
however. First of all, 16th century Spaniards made little distinction
between the various non-white races. Second, people in general aren't
terribly concerned with accuracy when throwing around racial slurs (or
other slurs against breeding, eg "bastard").
mdl
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Sun, 16 January 2000 12:38 AM EST
>Message-id: <20000116003833...@ng-cn1.aol.com>
>
>There are many Jewish characters in opera..for example:
>
> Oytello
> La Traviyenta
> Die Frau Mit der Schaettel
> Don Jewvanni
> A Mohel and the Night Visitors
>
>( confess this is from Internet..i am not THAT funny) CH
CH you are too modest.
You forgot one of your best lines. Lohengrin must have also been Jewish. Who
else would exclaim: "Mein lieber schwanz!"?
==G/P Dave
P.S. Although I am 2 days early, let me be among the first to wish you a Happy
Birthday!
andre35
Before this gets too far, I was saying it was hardly likely Alvaro was accused of being a Mulatto, in the sense we have come to put it into 'everyday' [oy!] usage.
Marrano, on the other hand, one can make a case, taking the context of the times into consideration. I am aware of 16th century Spain, its practices and strategies.
Frankly, if the libretto places the last act, where the action takes place, in Spain, I can see Marrano as the original epithet, even given Alvaro's 'native-american' blood. What or who acted as "Deus ex Machina" changing the epithet leaves another open question. Bastard carried more weight in position and bloodline obsessed 16th century Spain.
But, this is mere conjecture, and getting circular, at that.
Regards
Andre
Ethel Jean Saltz
<ehr...@wilma.widomaker.com> wrote:
>In my original post posing this question, I excluded biblical characters
>(not just from the Jewish scriptures, mind you) not because they are not
>Jewish somehow, but because they were "too obvious" (my words in the
>post).
>
==========================
Because I don't think it is obvious at all. And needs reaffirmation.
We have a history of 5000 years. It's not obvious to Muslims because
they document Ibrahim as Muslim. So when you talk about Jewish
characters in Opera you list all of it. It proves the influence of
Jews in music. Can't be stated often enough.
donpaolo
Jew"....doesn't he?
Regards,
DonP.
Matthew B. Tepper
>
> Hay - how about Rossini's Figaro? He sings "Figaro Su, Figato
> Jew"....doesn't he?
Also Cio-Cio-San, when ordering her retinue around in Act I, seems to be
a little confused: "Giu!" "Giu!"
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
David Shengold
When one talks about Goldmark, Anton Rubinstein, Mendelssohn or Schoenberg
using Biblical Jews as operatic oratorio characters it might say something
about "the influence of Jews in music" (normally a phrase I associate with
anti-Semitic tracts), but I fail to see how, say, Handel's, Rossini's or
Verdi's use of them reflects any such thing. Taking it on a
composer-by-composer case, one could argue for instance that Handel's
Biblical oratorios were popular among Jewish merchants in London, and so on,
but that is quite different from the rather tribalist claim you seem to want
to make. Christians do read the Old Testament, you know. I think Charles or
any poster has the right to set, or at least suggest, the ground rules of "
Who can think of...?) threads such as this one, and I found it quite
interesting to think about his suggestions myself and to see what
post-Biblical Jewish characters the ng could come up with. Maybe you are not
aware of it, but there are HUNDREDS, perhaps THOUSANDS of operas, based on
Old Testament stories, most of them I would venture not by Jewish composers
or showing any but the most orientalist stereotypical "influence of Jews in
music".
-David Shengold
----------
In article
<80CDA439E2D82BF1.BAAD2E56...@lp.airnews.net>, Ethel
John Yohalem
andre35 wrote in message <3885CD24...@bellsouth.net>...
Mark,
Before this gets too far, I was saying it was hardly likely Alvaro was accused of being a Mulatto, in the sense we have come to put it into 'everyday' [oy!] usage.
Marrano, on the other hand, one can make a case, taking the context of the times into consideration. I am aware of 16th century Spain, its practices and strategies.
Frankly, if the libretto places the last act, where the action takes place, in Spain, I can see Marrano as the original epithet, even given Alvaro's 'native-american' blood. What or who acted as "Deus ex Machina" changing the epithet leaves another open question. Bastard carried more weight in position and bloodline obsessed 16th century Spain.
Forza does not take place in 16th century Spain but 18th century Spain, Andre.
Hans Lich
ench...@herodotus.com
andre35
I owe you 200 years.
Andre
andre35
Hello, you called?
I was watching important stuff--hoops.
Didn't we throw keys, and say that phrase playing Potsie? Uno, due, tre,
tutti jew. Hah!
Wadda dey know, dose Japanese?
Con risotto
Don Andy
donpaolo wrote:
> You beat me to it; but I thought she introduced all her relatives as having
> converted: "Uno, Due, Tre - Tutti Jew". Andre??????
>
> DonP.
>
> Matthew B. Tepper <o...@earthlink.net> wrote in article
> <38877331...@earthlink.net>...
Enrique Eskenazi
>Trabucco in LA FORZA DEL DESTINO (in an early draft of the libretto, this
>character was simply known as "L'ebreo.")
And Isacco in Rossini's 'La Gazza Ladra'. I've always felt a parentage
between Trabucco and Isacco
Regards
---
Enrique
eske...@teleline.es
Io chi sono? Eh, non lo so.
-Nol sapete?
Quasi no.
donpaolo
Mark D. Lew
> > Forza does not take place in 16th century Spain but 18th
> > century Spain, Andre.
andre35 <and...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> OK,
> I owe you 200 years.
> Andre
I think that was my error. We were talking about Alvaro's heritage: I was
thinking of him as an Inca prince, so I figured 1500s. I guess Alvaro must
be several generations removed.
Come to think of it, how does that jibe with Alvaro's aria? He says,
"Della natal sua terra il padre volle spezzar l'estranio giogo, e
coll'unirsi all'ultima degl'Incas la corona cingere confidò." (Something
like, "My father sought to release his native land from the foreign yoke,
and unite the last of the Incas".) Is the "padre" there not Alvaro's
immediate father? Or was the last Inca rebellion much later than I thought?
I had always assumed Alvaro was singing about Tupac Amaru, but he was
executed in 1571.
mdl
Charles E. Ehrlich
I really wasn't meaning to start a thread on Jewish influence in music. I
thought it was just an innocent question, really. We had a thread
recently on Moslem characters in opera, and it made me wonder how many
Jewish characters, other than biblical ones since there are so many, exist
in opera. I could think of only a very small handfull - certainly there
are almost none in the standard repertory.
The list which has been produced on this thread has amazed me. I've never
heard of most of these operas - it's been quite an interesting thread.
Whether the composer writing about the Jewish character was Jewish is
rather irrelevent - unless, of course, we are going to discuss how the
Jewish character is portrayed (sympathetically or unsympathetically, with
Judaism central to the character's identity or a character who only
happens to be Jewish or even a character whose humanity is important
and almost appropriated despite the figure's historical religious
identity...).
I was just looking for a list. And I'd like to thank everyone who
provided a very interesting list indeed.
I must admit I am totally perplexed by EJS's line of reasoning. I can't
respond, because she is making no sense to me.
Islam didn't exist until Mohammed, so there were no Moslems before then.
Christianity didn't exist until Paul, so there were no Christians before
then (yes, indeed, Jesus was Jewish, as were his disciples and so forth).
While Moslems and Christians may claim Jewish figures (and non-Jewish
ones, like Vergil for example) as antecedents, or righteous, or
proto-Christians/Moslems, or whatever, and they may trace their line back
to Abraham, there is no doubting that these folks could not have been
Christians or Moslems before such religions existed. What constitutes
"modern" Judaism and who pertains to it is also a debate best left for
another newsgroup.
EJS also questioned Henry Kissinger's Jewish identity. I presume this is
because the composer is not Jewish and no where in the opera does
Kissinger's religion play a role (I'm actually not familiar with Nixon in
China, but I'm extrapolating from her arguments). Again, I can't even
begin to make sense of all of this.
So she feels it appropriate to exclude Kissinger, but inappropriate to
exclude biblical characters. I excluded biblical characters not because
they were not Jewish, but because I thought including them would be too
obvious - by excluding them, we have a thread full of obscure operas and
some not so obscure, rather than a bunch of biblically-themed operas which
anyone with an opera directory - myself included - could look up in the
index. My opera reference books, however, do not have an index listing
for "Jews."
So much for what I thought was a simple question (with a difficult bunch
of answers).
Charles Ehrlich
Cambridge, Mass
Luca Logi
> Come to think of it, how does that jibe with Alvaro's aria? He says,
> "Della natal sua terra il padre volle spezzar l'estranio giogo, e
> coll'unirsi all'ultima degl'Incas la corona cingere confidò." (Something
> like, "My father sought to release his native land from the foreign yoke,
> and unite the last of the Incas".) Is the "padre" there not Alvaro's
> immediate father? Or was the last Inca rebellion much later than I thought?
> I had always assumed Alvaro was singing about Tupac Amaru, but he was
> executed in 1571.
Literally translated, the lines you quote mean:
"My father sought to release his native land from the foreign yoke,
and with marrying the last female descendant of Incas,
he hoped to get the crown (=to become king)."
(The key to correctly translate the second line is that "ultima" is a
female form and "unirsi" means "get married" in poetic Italian).
So I understand only Alvaro's mother is an Inca princess - and the very
last offspring, several centuries from the golden age of Incas. In any
case both parents were beheaded, Alvaro sings few lines later....
--------------------------------------------------------
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: ll...@dada.it
Home page: http://www.angelfire.com/ar/archivarius
(musicologia pratica)
David Shengold
Perhaps he was speaking of Yma Sumac?
-DLS
----------
In article <2000012114...@dadovago2059.dada.it>, ll...@dada.it (Luca
andre35
Andre
revenant
the magnetic name of the original rebel of the 1500s. This second TA
was executed around 1780 by the Spanish Colonial regime of Peru,
against which he led a bloody rebellion. Alvaro's aria clearly tells
how his own father sought to shake off the foreign yoke, believing that
by marrying the last of the Inca royal line would place the Inca crown
upon his head (Fu vana impresa!). There is no indication that Alvaro's
fictional father is in any way related to the second Tupac Amaru, a
historical character.
In article <markdlew-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net>,
mark...@earthlink.net (Mark D. Lew) wrote:
> Answering Hans Lich's
> > > Forza does not take place in 16th century Spain but 18th
> > > century Spain, Andre.
> andre35 <and...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > OK,
> > I owe you 200 years.
> > Andre
> I think that was my error. We were talking about Alvaro's
> heritage: I was
> thinking of him as an Inca prince, so I figured 1500s. I guess
> Alvaro must
> be several generations removed.
> says,
> "Della natal sua terra il padre volle spezzar l'estranio giogo, e
> coll'unirsi all'ultima degl'Incas la corona cingere confidò."
> (Something
> foreign yoke,
> and unite the last of the Incas".) Is the "padre" there not
> Alvaro's
> immediate father? Or was the last Inca rebellion much later than I
> thought?
> I had always assumed Alvaro was singing about Tupac Amaru, but he
> was
> executed in 1571.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Jon Davis
Er, shouldn't that be Zinka in FORZA?
Jon Davis
The remarkable thing about my mother is that for 30 years
she served us nothing but leftovers. The original meal has
never been found.
andre35
Andy
Jon Davis
Remember, Opera requires a willing suspension of disbelief!
andre35
Easy for you to say !! Maybe the 10 lost Slavic Tribes, in Peru??? Nah.
Andy
Mark D. Lew
> "My father sought to release his native land from the foreign yoke,
> and with marrying the last female descendant of Incas,
> he hoped to get the crown (=to become king)."
>
> (The key to correctly translate the second line is that "ultima" is a
> female form and "unirsi" means "get married" in poetic Italian).
Thanks. I wasn't reading that line very carefully. Now it makes more sense.
mdl
Mark D. Lew
"Charles E. Ehrlich" <ehr...@wilma.widomaker.com> wrote:
> Islam didn't exist until Mohammed, so there were no Moslems before then.
> Christianity didn't exist until Paul, so there were no Christians before
> then (yes, indeed, Jesus was Jewish, as were his disciples and so forth).
> While Moslems and Christians may claim Jewish figures (and non-Jewish
> ones, like Vergil for example) as antecedents, or righteous, or
> proto-Christians/Moslems, or whatever, and they may trace their line back
> to Abraham, there is no doubting that these folks could not have been
> Christians or Moslems before such religions existed.
That's one way of looking at it, but as far as any Muslim is concerned, a
"Muslim" is anyone who submits to the will of God. Thus, Islam exists
before Muhammad. Muslims do not claim Jewish figures as "proto-Muslims" or
"antecedents": they claim that the Muslim faith is the same as the original
Jewish faith, except that the Jews (and the Christians) later deviated from
the true faith.
Non-believers may disagree with that, of course, but that's no excuse for
misrepresenting the religion. It is quite different from Christianity,
where the definition of what it means to be Christian is not possible prior
to Christ. Muhammad was the seal of the Prophets, but he was not divine.
mdl
andre35
The poster is merely recounting the popular descriptions of the religions
in question.
If one is not an atheist, one putatively submits to the will of God. If
for some Muhammed is his final phophet, so be it.
No one has denigrated any religion, in error, or by design. Even
"misrepresentation" is rather a loaded word in its context here.
Taking an opportunity to turn this into Comparative Religion 202 is
loading up this thread with "live ammo."
Why does only Islam need clarification from you? It might be my
contention that to be a Christian is not possible prior to Paul, or perhaps it
is possible.That's not at issue. The issue is, why plant this thread with
potential land mines?
I have never minded taking what I have to say to the personal level, as
you might know.
Even I don't care to make an issue of religion, if only for a
"clarification," in a public forum.
It's 8 to 5 someone will find something offensive in all three of these
posts. If allowed to take its natural course, this could be worse than the CC
issue.
Andre
andre35
The poster is merely recounting the popular descriptions of the religions
If one is not an atheist in the judaeo christian sense, one putatively
submits [as has always been the case] to the will of God. If for some Mohammed
is his final prophet, so be it. I prefer to let the Shia, Sufi, and Suni decide
how.
No one has denigrated any religion, in error, or by design. Even
"misrepresentation" is rather a loaded word in its context here.
we save it for Comparative Religion 202?
Regards
andre35
the first post, only mercifully shorter.
AE
Mark D. Lew
<and...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> The poster is merely recounting the popular descriptions of the religions
> in question.
Yes, I know. My beef is with the popular descriptions, not the poster (who
perhaps knows better).
> No one has denigrated any religion, in error, or by design. Even
> "misrepresentation" is rather a loaded word in its context here.
> Taking an opportunity to turn this into Comparative Religion 202 is
> loading up this thread with "live ammo."
You are correct in suspecting that this is a hot-button issue for me, but
my objection has nothing to do with denigration or religion. Rather, it is
about the level of ignorance in America regarding a certain topic where we
as a nation seem to determined to remain blind.
Islam is one of the three or four most significant phenomena in the history
of Western civilization, and to this day it defines the culture of
one-sixth of the world's population. Notwithstanding that, even among
*educated* Americans, about 90% are completely ignorant of even the most
basic tenets of Islam. I think that's an outrage.
> Why does only Islam need clarification from you? [...]
It would be nice to "clarify" many issues, but some are more in need than
others. There are many things that America as a whole would do well to
better understand about the world, but Islam is, imho, the most glaring.
The beam in our own eye, as it were.
mdl
Eric D. Zamir (Zimmerman)
understood more about a religion which exploits its semi-illiterate
followers and sends them around and about to perform acts of unspeakable
terror against innocent people, especially including children.
--
Eric D. Zamir
Eric D. Zamir (Zimmerman)
xenophobic, warlike religion that has always oppressed those members of
other religions unlucky enough to be caught under its sway (let's forget the
Jews - that's the obvious, nay, blatant examplt - how about the Palestinian
"Authority"'s treatment of Christians today?) And just how free are
Christians to practice in other Moslem extremist countries? Since when does
Islam have a heritage of open-mindedness, humility, etc. And, in any event,
is the the right forum for your smug temporizing on Islam? I thought it was
about opera. Even the lowliest gossip is more interesting than your
glorification of Islam.
--
Eric D. Zamir
David Shengold
Take this benighted rhetoric to a more appropriate newsgroup, please.
----------
In article <B4B682BD.CE3%er...@isdn.net.il>, "Eric D. Zamir (Zimmerman)"