Ramey as Scarpia
Ryan DeRyke
Ryan DeRyke wrote:
> Hoorah! I agree! Well said! Which is why Samuel Ramey was BORN TO
> PLAY SCARPIA!
>>Now, if he had just been BORN TO SING SCARPIA! It's a baritone role,
>>and, in case you haven't heard, Ramey is a bass.
Well, I hate to point out people's faux pas, but this one was so
contemptibly put that I shall endulge myself momentarily and only for the
sake of good-natured amusement.
Scarpia IS a baritone role. Yes, that's right. I think we are all in
agreement with that. I mean it contains a fairly well sustained g in the
second act and the act one finale has that glorious f# in the Te Deum, and
I have heard many a virtuoso add in a b-flat on the "To-" of "Tosca, mi
fai diamenticare Iddio!" if they feel like screaming a little at that
point. So what we must dispute here is Ramy's vocal capability to sing
this role.
Well, I have nothing to say to you on this one except 2894317752. This is
the serial number of a Deutsche Grammophon recording of Tosca with Freni,
Domingo, and .... get this... go figure... could it be?..... yes! SAMUEL
RAMEY!!!! and, although he is does not venture to the B-flat... which I
should point out is not in the real baritone range anyway... he does the
role absolutely beautifully with seductiveness and depth. Now I will
admit, Ramey has done considerable work as a bass, but the fact is, there
is a very reputable recording of him doing this Baritone role. And I must
maintain my position with as much humbleness as my opinion will allow that
Ramey was indeed BORN TO PLAY AND SING SCARPIA!!!
Please do not be offended by my musings... It's all in good fun :)
Ryan DeRyke
"I think so, Brain, but where are we going to find rubber pants at this
time of night?"
Terrymelin
Along this line I read somewhere that Bryn Terfel will be singing his
first Scarpia somewhere in Europe next year. Didn't expect him to go in
that direction as I thought he was headed for more Wagner and Strauss.
Terry Ellsworth
Claud H. Shirley III
Ryan DeRyke wrote:
>
>
> Scarpia IS a baritone role. Yes, that's right. I think we are all in
> agreement with that. I mean it contains a fairly well sustained g in the
> second act and the act one finale has that glorious f# in the Te Deum, and
> I have heard many a virtuoso add in a b-flat on the "To-" of "Tosca, mi
> fai diamenticare Iddio!" if they feel like screaming a little at that
> point. So what we must dispute here is Ramy's vocal capability to sing
> this role.
>
anywhere in Tosca. There is no G at all. He does sing a sustained G
FLAT, at the point where he chases her across the room, at "Mia!. . .
Mia!" Also, there is no F# in the finale of Act I - the note is F
NATURAL, which has also been sung at the words, "l'altra fra le MIE
braccia. Other than the one G flat in Act II, the role does not, as
written, rise above the several, but not many, F's of Act II.
You are correct, and bring up an interesting topic, that Scarpias with
higher ranges, often leave the line for vocal dramatic thrusts - Milnes'
Scarpia, for example, was filled with these exploded vowels. The very
fine, but almost forgotten baritone Mario Sereni was also capable of
some very thrilling high notes of this variety. Very exciting, a
seperate skill from singing, and accepted in traditional (continental?)
performance practice. That kind of glottal and diaphragmatic blow can
damage the voice, however, and is not really good technique. That's why
when done well it is so exciting. There is danger and risk involved -
not for the faint-hearted or careful singer.
My own personal favorite for this kind of vocal effect is the YOUNG
Mario Del Monaco - some of the exploded high notes he uses in his first
recording of Pagliacci seem to have the effect of actually striking your
ear drums (O ma - le - DET - ta, for example). Unfortunately, within a
decade, overuse of this power had cost him tremendously in his ability
to sustain a long line, without barking.
Scarpia is designated as a baritone role - but surely Puccini crafted
this role with a design in mind of making it available to the widest
possible types of lower male voice. I've heard Gobbi with a voice as
white as a sepulchre ooze evil up and down the stage, or London with his
black granite sound and the irresistable power of a resurrected Roman
conqueror - Warren's fruity, corrupt, almost sleazy delivery of this
role - and R. Raimondi's brilliant but perverse, Robespierre of a
Scarpia, with a voice ike a buzz-saw. Completely different voices, but
all overpowering Scarpias. Puccini was a great genius - every level in
each of his operas is charged with his careful creative oversight -
nothing is allowed to slip by - including the very seductive power to
draw any singer I've ever met into the web of his power - sometimes to
triumph, sometimes to ship-wreck and disaster.
James Jorden
Claud H. Shirley III wrote:
> Scarpia is designated as a baritone role - but surely Puccini crafted
> this role with a design in mind of making it available to the widest
> possible types of lower male voice.
Surely Puccini did no such thing. There is a qualitative difference in
the tone color of a baritone and a bass; the 19th-century operatic
tradition was to exploit this contrast between, as Julian Budden put it,
the baritone's irrestible force and the bass's immovable object.
Casting a bass as Scarpia is as indefensible as casting a mezzo-soprano
as Tosca-- the notes may all be there, but the color and balance of the
voice is all wrong.
----
james jorden
jjo...@ix.netcom.com
http://www.anaserve.com/~parterre
"Without Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals, there is no theater."
-- Mel Brooks in "To Be or Not to Be"
J. Guy Stalnaker
It's all in the voice is it not? Callas sang Norma ... Callas sang
Tosca. Sutherland sang Norma, but she didn't sing Tosca (s'far as I
know). Price didn't sing Norma, but she did sing Tosca. Horne sang
Carmen ... Callas sang Carmen ... Price sang Carmen (whew). And this is
just voice type.
What about voice maturity? We have no record of Caruso in Otello
because he died too young before his voice was ready. While I'm no fan
of Domingo, can you imagine the tenor of the 60/70's, the heroic Andrea
Chenier, as Parsifal? Yet he's done it, and while he's no Melchior,
he's not too bad at it.
The Ramey I've seen in Mefistofele seems to me a candidate for Scarpia
(in which role I find Morris lacking compared to the video I have of
Ingvar Wixell who is stunning). I may have to buy this
Freni/Domingo/Ramey recording.
G.S.
James Jorden wrote:
>
> Claud H. Shirley III wrote:
>
> > Scarpia is designated as a baritone role - but surely Puccini crafted
> > this role with a design in mind of making it available to the widest
> > possible types of lower male voice.
> Surely Puccini did no such thing. There is a qualitative difference in
> the tone color of a baritone and a bass; the 19th-century operatic
> tradition was to exploit this contrast between, as Julian Budden put it,
> the baritone's irrestible force and the bass's immovable object.
>
> Casting a bass as Scarpia is as indefensible as casting a mezzo-soprano
> as Tosca-- the notes may all be there, but the color and balance of the
> voice is all wrong.
> ----
> james jorden
> jjo...@ix.netcom.com
> http://www.anaserve.com/~parterre
--
____________
-------------------------------------------------\__________/-----
J. Guy Stalnaker \________/
jsta...@students.wisc.edu \______/
\____/
Live your life so you've no regrets! \__/
------------------------------------------------------\/----------
Ryan DeRyke
In article <33287F...@students.wisc.edu>, "J. Guy Stalnaker"
<jsta...@students.wisc.edu> wrote:
> It's all in the voice is it not? Callas sang Norma ... Callas sang
> Tosca. Sutherland sang Norma, but she didn't sing Tosca (s'far as I
> know). Price didn't sing Norma, but she did sing Tosca. Horne sang
> Carmen ... Callas sang Carmen ... Price sang Carmen (whew). And this is
> just voice type.
>
> What about voice maturity? We have no record of Caruso in Otello
> because he died too young before his voice was ready. While I'm no fan
> of Domingo, can you imagine the tenor of the 60/70's, the heroic Andrea
> Chenier, as Parsifal? Yet he's done it, and while he's no Melchior,
> he's not too bad at it.
>
> The Ramey I've seen in Mefistofele seems to me a candidate for Scarpia
> (in which role I find Morris lacking compared to the video I have of
> Ingvar Wixell who is stunning). I may have to buy this
> Freni/Domingo/Ramey recording.
>
> G.S.
Mr. Stalmaker, you've caught it exactly! I just love you! We should be
talking about one's ability to successfully PERFORM the role. We should
be taking into account the singer's maturity both vocal and intellectual
for it is indeed a combination of these two which serves to make a
successful performance. Voice type is a fairly surly thing to be dealing
with. It is very hard to label a voice type and in our attempt to do so,
we come up with names like bass-baritone, baritone-base, oh... and my all
time favorite baritenor :) I think what is most important is that one is
able to effectively sing the music and provide a deep and interesting
interperatation, which I have to say is well accomplished by Ramey as
Scarpia. He has also done both Leperello and Don Giovanni (although not
at the same time, of course.... well at least I hope so...) and while
Leperello is most certainly a bass, there have been many people classified
as baritones who have taken on the role of Don Giovanni, which is a role
calssified for Baritone. So what exactly is Ramey? A Bass? A Baritone?
A government conspiracy designed to confuse us? A reject from the
X-files? Or could it be that he is simply a singer... and a good one at
that. A singer who takes on roles which are within his range and does
marvellous things with them. I hope this is the case because the X-files
is a really good show.
There is a video of Wixell in Tosca as Scarpia? Please tell me more! I
must buy a copy of it! If you have the serial number I might be able to
order it.
Thank you,
Ryan
(Can't we all just get along? Let us see music as a unifying force, a
mutual passion that we all share. Let our divisions bind us closer.
Maybe then we'll all be happy! If a piano were all white notes we'd have
nothing about which to chat. If it were all black notes we'd all be
listening to pentatonic music and the whole world would seem asian. No,
it takes all of us to have an interesting conversation. Be loving toward
eachother. This newsgroup is a wonderful gift. Please pardon my cliched
metaphores.)
Ryan DeRyke
> For the record - there is no sustained high G in the role of Scarpia
> anywhere in Tosca. There is no G at all. He does sing a sustained G
> FLAT, at the point where he chases her across the room, at "Mia!. . .
> Mia!" Also, there is no F# in the finale of Act I - the note is F
> NATURAL, which has also been sung at the words, "l'altra fra le MIE
> braccia. Other than the one G flat in Act II, the role does not, as
> written, rise above the several, but not many, F's of Act II.
>
Ah! yes... quite right... I checked my scores and they were indeed marked
with f-naturals and g-flats. Yes, the finale of act one is indeed in
e-flat and Scarpia sings the third note in the V chord. I mean...
well...what the hell would b-flat be doing in the key of e-natural
anyway. How embarrassing! I mean... here I am telling someone off
(respectfully) and I got my notes wrong! This is a great reminder to me
to cross reference these things a little better. Or perhaps not to tell
off people even when I'm trying to do it respectfully and in good humor.
Thanks...
Ryan
Oh... I don't know.... It always seems higher than that! Mia... mia...
etc... you know! :)
JMiller
Ryan DeRyke <kaw...@iquest.net> wrote in article
<kawish-2708...@ind-0001-30.iquest.net>...
(...)
> There is a video of Wixell in Tosca as Scarpia? Please tell me more! I
> must buy a copy of it! If you have the serial number I might be able to
> order it.
If it is the Marton/Aragall/Wixell TOSCA, live from the Caracal in Rome,
I've seen it several times. Wixell is in fine voice, but, IMHO, a little
short in the acting department...still, a satisfying Act II. Marton is
disappointing as an actress and singer, but hides the wobble very well in a
lovely Vissi d'arte. Aragall sounds marvelous and is convincing. My only
real problem with the video is the audible prompter.
> (Can't we all just get along? Let us see music as a unifying force, a
> mutual passion that we all share. Let our divisions bind us closer.
> Maybe then we'll all be happy! If a piano were all white notes we'd have
> nothing about which to chat. If it were all black notes we'd all be
> listening to pentatonic music and the whole world would seem asian.
And I can't imagine what a piano with only gray notes would sound like :) .
JMiller
James Jorden
Ryan DeRyke wrote:
> For the record - there is no sustained high G in the role of Scarpia
> anywhere in Tosca. There is no G at all. He does sing a sustained G
> FLAT, at the point where he chases her across the room, at "Mia!. . [etc.]
> Oh... I don't know.... It always seems higher than that!
"Seems higher" is the important point here. The tessitura is quite high
(especially in this passage) and the vocal writing is heavy and
declamatory. That's what makes a role hard to sing, not a few isolated
high notes.
But, the point is, no matter how much facility Ramey may have with these
passages, the sound is wrong. Ramey is also not particularly menacing
on stage (eerie, yes. But not physically menacing.") His slight
stature has something to do with this, but the main problem is that he
just is not a very powerful actor.
You put together wrong vocal color and wrong dramatic type, and you're
left with a Scarpia who would please no one but Mr. Ramey's (admittedly
myriad) groupies.
--
"Without Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals, there is no theater."
lbf6208
J. Guy Stalnaker (jsta...@students.wisc.edu) wrote:
: We have no record of Caruso in Otello
Caruso recorded a fabulous "Si pel ciel" with Titta Ruffo.
--
Linda B. Fairtile
Astoria, New York
ta...@bway.net
J. Guy Stalnaker
Sorry,
Poor choice of words Linda. I meant that Caruso never sang the role on
stage, not that we have no "recording" of him in Otello (much like
Price, though she did record a wonderful Leibestod, never sang the role
on stage).
G.S.
--
Greg Ellis
Ryan DeRyke <kaw...@iquest.net> wrote in article
<kawish-2708...@ind-0001-30.iquest.net>...
>
> > For the record - there is no sustained high G in the role of Scarpia
> > anywhere in Tosca. There is no G at all. He does sing a sustained G
> > FLAT, at the point where he chases her across the room, at "Mia!. . .
> > Mia!" Also, there is no F# in the finale of Act I - the note is F
> > NATURAL, which has also been sung at the words, "l'altra fra le MIE
> > braccia. Other than the one G flat in Act II, the role does not, as
> > written, rise above the several, but not many, F's of Act II.
> >
>
> Ah! yes... quite right... I checked my scores and they were indeed
marked
> with f-naturals and g-flats. Yes, the finale of act one is indeed in
> e-flat and Scarpia sings the third note in the V chord. I mean...
> well...what the hell would b-flat be doing in the key of e-natural
> anyway. How embarrassing! I mean... here I am telling someone off
> (respectfully) and I got my notes wrong!
In future tell them they are dickheads and that the composer got the notes
wrong - never admit error on this newsgroup!!!
Enrique Eskenazi
JMiller wrote:
>
> If it is the Marton/Aragall/Wixell TOSCA, live from the Caracal in Rome,
I think it was at Verona´s Arena, and not from Rome.
--
Enrique
eske...@mail.sendanet.es
Io chi sono? Eh, non lo so.
-Nol sapete?
Quasi no.