Renata Tebaldi
Operabarre
around that long. But I have been a fan of Renata Tebaldi for two years and
know everything there is to know about her. She is the greatest singer in the
world. Nobody could top her Desdemona, Tosca, Mimi, Manon Lescaut, Alice Ford,
Aida. The Tosca in Rio with the encore of Vissi d' Arte. The fourth act Manon
Lescaut in 1958 with Richard Tucker. 1959 Madama Butterfly with 48 curtain
calls in her robe. I could go on, but it is not neccessary. Sure the notes
are a little flat but listen to Scotto in La Boheme as Mussetta. She is awful.
Tebaldi maintained her sound not her top but her sound until the end. If
certain people listen to Tebaldi and cringe I feel very sorry for them. If you
are waiting to hear a flat note you ruin the joy of listening and you deserve a
flat note. And as a person ask anybody they will say the nicesest person. I
have asked Robert Merrill and I have had the previlige to meet Franco Corelli
and he said it was a great blessing to sing with her. When God blesses someone
he doesn't miss in any part. He blessed Renata Tebaldi.
Craig
Don Paolo
You are certainly on the right track! Bravo!
Now, what can we (Ancona 21, John Conway, Diana M., Ed Rosen & DonP., among
others do for your further development in great taste with regard to Franco
Corelli? Just speaketh the word & we are available - night & day, weekends,
holidays; in sickness & in health.
Regards,
DonPaolo
Operabarre <opera...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010309181431...@ng-fx1.aol.com...
John G
posting...before i say anything else....she did have a very powerful
instument.....with a beautiful sound.......but I do want to put in one fact
and one of my opinions....I believe that it is fact that no one will ever
be able to come close to Maria Callas as Tosca....Callas's Tosca is
legendary in the opera world...an opera that if you listen to with Callas
...tears will be shed.....as far as my opinion all though I do think that
Tebaldi does very well in Adia....I think Leontyne Price rules the domain of
that opera.....I do think that Madam Butterfly by Tebaldi is earth
shattering as well as ( and some might disagree ) her Forza del
Destino....now as far as Desdemona ...im not also sure because ive only
heard Renata Tebaldi and Renee Fleming ( i will be lucky enough to see it
live in chicago in september ), and ive only heard Ave Maria by Cabelle (
not the whole opera ).......The only possible competition that i see renata
have as Mimi would be the voice of Victoria De Los Angeles.........
Figaropcb
taste to recognize the greatness of Tebaldi.
Regards,
Paul
CharlesHandelman
bananas..Callas might have been more dramatic..but apples and oranges.....Two
separate entities...as Far as Aida goes..it is Milanov and Stella...Tebaldi
fabulous in Aida except for the patria Mia......but Milaniv ruled..I never
considered the small-voiced Price a verdi soprano except in lovely arias like
"D'amor
and "Patria Mia."Otherwise the voice never could soar at all..and her
mannerisms became actually close to CAMP by the end.
Tebaldi was the ONLY soprano in the century to combine PWER and BEAUTY in such
huge proportions...Yes,the top went flat at times...especially toward the
end..but still she was a sensation..and NOT ONE SOPRANO TODAY can approach her
level..in my very unhumble opinion.,CH
As ever,Charlie
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/handelmania
Customoper
>From: "Don Paolo" donp...@erols.com
>Date: 3/9/01 9:34 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <98bpa2$4f2$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>
>
>Craig -
>
>You are certainly on the right track! Bravo!
>
>Now, what can we (Ancona 21, John Conway, Diana M., Ed Rosen & DonP., among
>others do for your further development in great taste with regard to Franco
>Corelli? Just speaketh the word & we are available - night & day, weekends,
>holidays; in sickness & in health.
>
>Regards,
>
>DonPaolo
Believe me, DonPaolo, he loves Corelli. I know this young man, and have had the
pleasure of giving him many tapes. I have never met someone so young with such
a proper appreciation of the great voices. He also loves Tucker, Merrill, and
many more. His tastes in singers belies his years. Ask him about Siepi, even
Mario Sereni. He can even identify countless voices by just a few notes-
perhaps even better and quicker than us "old timers."
Best,
Ed
For free catalog of live opera on CD, video, and audio cassettes, please e-mail
your name and mailing address.
Customoper
>that it is fact that no one will ever
>be able to come close to Maria Callas as Tosca....Callas's Tosca is
>legendary in the opera world...an opera that if you listen to with Callas
>...tears will be shed..
I have always preferred Tebaldi as Tosca, and I saw both sopranos perform the
role. Callas three times, and Tebaldi probably over 20 times.
Tebaldi caused her entire audience to shed tears- especially when she sang the
great line on her exit in act 1- Egli vedi, io piango. She would start the
"piango" softly, and swell to a forte. It was *always* the most thrilling and
moving moment, and she would cry, and the audience would cry with her- because
of the drama, and because of that indescribly gorgeous tone.
Customoper
> Tebaldi was the ONLY soprano in the century to combine PWER and BEAUTY in
>such
>huge proportion
I agree with everything my friend Charlie writes. He hits the nail right on the
head on every point. Price simply had to small a sound on top to be at all
effective in any Verdi ensemble. She was all but inaudible in the great Aida
ensemble- her most famous role.
The Tebaldi voice would soar as none other that I ever heard. I never saw her
in Aida, but in the great act 3 concertato of Otello she would drown out the
entire orchestra and chorus. And then scale her voice down for the last act for
the Salce and Ave Maria.
There will never be another Tebaldi.
AT
CharlesHandelman
today......signing every single program,even in the coldest weather, laughing
and kidding ariund, and then letting out the always awaited scream of "CIAO" as
her limo moved up 39th Street,with all of us following her....There was NO ONE
of that monumental stature who treated us like that....she was our beloved
Renata..and every time I hear her voice (on my annual birthday call to her) I
just get all choked up...back at age 19.....being a kid again..and having her
notice me..and her "children" as she did..There was never so much love across
the footlights back and forth in the Met in those days.......
When you watch the footage of her 1995 return to the Met, you see all that
love all over again..Nothing quite like it!!!! CH
As ever,Charlie
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/handelmania
Tyrrath
and there) forward Operabarre's post to Mme. Tebaldi? I'm sure she'd enjoy
reading it.:)
DS445
Monaco/Stignani), the first Boheme (Prandelli/Gueden) and the first Butterfly
(Campora). But, I am sure you already have. I grew up on her and she was
almost my first love (Sayao was # 1). No one since has come close, although
Millo at her best has something of the cream. Of the stereo recordings, the
best are the first Desdemona, the Fanciulla, and the second Butterfly. I also
love the Trittico and the Gioconda. That is magesterial. Oh, if you don't
already have it, get the CD of the combined song recitals from 1955. Also, try
to listen to the scenes from Cecilia and the Countessa's two arias from Nozzi.
All are to die for.
Don
Charlie
O believe Craig (Operabarre) has actually spoken to her on the phone... but
renata does know what he thinks.....and what we all think...CH
My best, Charlie. Check out my website dedicated to the wonderful world
of opera, and request my huge free catalogue of live opera tapes.
Customoper
>love all over again..Nothing quite like it!!!! CH
The tape Charlie speaks of is wonderful. I should know- it's my original! A
couple of us made sure and video Renata's return, both the signing of the
books, which includes seeing Renata at the private party at Matthew Epstein's
that same evening. I was honored to be invited, and other guests included
Robert Merrill, Marilyn Horne, and Mignon Dunn, among others.
At one point, Tebaldi, Horne, and Merrill were standing together and chatting.
I came over and said that all we need is Carlo Bergonzi, and we have the cast
for the London Gioconda recording.
Then a couple of nights later, we made a video of Renata returning to the Met,
including the tremendous and mutiple ovations she got from the audience. It was
wonderful to see that wave and that smile again light up the Met. Also, her
visit backstage to meet the cast is here. You would think the Met would have
taped it, but they didn't, of course, so even this was left to the " pirates."
There was only one Tebaldi. She was and is unique in the history of opera, and
at her best, which is the way all singers should be judged, I think, she was
one of the very greatest voices of the 20th Century, and in the history of
opera. Long live Tebaldi.
Customoper
Already done! With a few words edited, about the flat singing.
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 03/10/2001 1:05 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <20010310020557...@ng-mq1.aol.com>
What gets me is how these discussions often produce exaggerations.
"No one since has come close".
I guess it depends upon what means by "since".
In the operas listed in the message we have had Leontyne Price and Zinka
Milanov in AIDA, Victoria de los Angeles, Renata Scotto, Mirella Freni in
MADAMA BUTTERFLY, etc., etc.
This takes nothing away from Tebaldi.
All wonderful recording artists.
One can prefer Tebaldi without having to denigrate others.
==G/P Dave
Opaffic
Right on again Dave!! I don't understand the need to reduce all the wonderful
singers who have graced us with their art to only ONE soprano, ONE tenor etc...
Never known a perfect singer, or a perfect human being! Sometimes it can be
those 'imperfections ' that make the result a true thing of awesome beauty!
Much more pleasure can be gained by taking what moves and inspires you, in any
given singer, and accept the rest, if possible. When I discuss details of any
one artists' singing, even "negative" ones, it does not mean I don't
acknowledge and fully appreciate their strengths, as I perceive them.....and it
is SO subjective. Hats off to any singer with the guts to get out there and
share their gifts. I for one am grateful.
REG
an instrumental background, and for a long time didn't find Tebaldi very
sympatico for me - I got caught in the heritage of the tabaldi-callas
"wars", and in loving singers who "interpreted" - as I've said earlier, the
art the reveals art. I still have a place in my heard for that kind of
self-conscious interpretative approach, but at some point the sincerity and
involvement, the "heart" of tebaldi, really began to speak to me, and I feel
that she was an artist who really "gave" of herself - the voice itself was
remarkable, but that voice was only one part of a generosity of spirit that
one encounters very few times in one's lifetime
Customoper <custo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010310090258...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
Don Paolo
in its' expression. I guess that's characteristic of the so-called
"pro"-intellectuals - you are devoid of human feelings & cannot/refuse to
understand the love, intensity, charisma, beauty that this great artist
generated & bestowed upon us.
And, yes - you are to be pitied if you cringe at listening to Tebaldi; it is
certainly your loss! That's what music is all about, hunh? Bullshit!
DonPaolo
David7Gable <david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010310150645...@ng-fk1.aol.com...
> >If
> >certain people listen to Tebaldi and cringe I feel very sorry for them.
>
> Yes, having ears is a terrible curse. Never mind that ears are what music
is
> all about. I'm just appalled that you don't care:
>
> >>Sure the notes
> are a little flat
>
> But you do concede that she doesn't sing in tune.
>
> >> If you are waiting to hear a flat note you ruin the joy of listening
> >>and you deserve a flat note.
>
> So it's MY fault Tebaldi sings out of tune! That's really good. I don't
sit
> there just waiting to hear a flat note. But I hear one when it happens.
And I
> know from experience to expect too much dubious pitch from La Tebaldi. I
don't
> sit there cringing when I listen to a lot of other singers with better
ears,
> singers who were better musicians. I only cringe listening to Tebaldi.
>
> >>And as a person ask anybody they will say [she was] the nicesest [sic]
> person.
>
> I guess that's the problem. Tebaldi's a nice person and I'm not. I go
into
> that holy temple of Tebaldi worship called rec.music.opera and express my
> honest opinion about her. And that is not a nice thing to do. Better I
should
> lie or keep my mouth shut. After all, this is a temple, not a public
forum for
> the exchange of critical opinion.
>
> >When God blesses someone
> >he doesn't miss in any part. He blessed Renata Tebaldi.
>
> How can one argue with such an article of faith? I feel I should run and
grab
> my rosary. Let me just ask you to pray for my poor damned soul, the soul
of an
> unbeliever who hasn't accepted the one true faith. Or maybe you could get
> Tebaldi to say a few Hail Mary's for me. Or is she the blessed Virgin
> incarnate?
>
> >>She is the greatest singer in the world.
>
> Convictions are greater threats to the truth than lies. There's no
arguing
> with convictions. They're automatically immune from any argument.
>
> -david gable
Customoper
>>If
>>certain people listen to Tebaldi and cringe I feel very sorry for them.
>
>Yes, having ears is a terrible curse. Never mind that ears are what music is
>all about. I'm just appalled that you don't care:
>
>>>Sure the notes
>are a little flat
>
>But you do concede that she doesn't sing in tune.
>
>>> If you are waiting to hear a flat note you ruin the joy of listening
>>>and you deserve a flat note.
>
>So it's MY fault Tebaldi sings out of tune! That's really good. I don't sit
>there just waiting to hear a flat note. But I hear one when it happens
>From: david...@aol.com
Come on, David. Aren't you taking things too literally? So you don't like
Tebaldi. Fine. We understand that.
But-- first of all, the notes were not "always" flat, and you know it. As she
got older, she flatted a bit more, but in her prime, virtually never! Can you
find any flat notes in her recordings of Boheme- both recordings- Tosca- both
recordings- the first Aida- both Otello recordings, and so many more?
What you will hear if you give yourself a chance, is the most gorgeous tone
imaginable, sung with a very musical approach, and with great dramatic
imagination. What more can one ask?
Add to this a great deal of shading and gorgeous piani in her prime, and you
have the greatest soprano I ever saw, and I only speak for myself. It is quite
obvious that countless others agree with this, but this is not my point.
My point is that you are taking what Craig said much too literally, and I find
your resonses to border on being childish. How about encouraging our very young
opera fans instead of beating them up?
No, David. It is not your fault if Tebaldi sang flat. It is my fault. Does that
make you feel better?
Tebaldi rules!!!!
Customoper
>
>
>-david gable
Yes.
Customoper
>good
>>taste to recognize the greatness of Tebaldi.
>
>
>
>-david gable
Boy, David. Talk about raining on a parade!! You take the post of a very young
man and pull it apart in a bunch of e-mails. Sure you can disagree, but how
about just a touch of sensitivity. I certainly hope this young man does not
become as cynical as you seem to be.
I'm sure God cares about singing in tune, and Tebaldi was his angel as Earth,
as Toscanini called her.
Ed
Don Paolo
DonP.
David7Gable <david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010310151748...@ng-fk1.aol.com...
> >Tebaldi caused her entire audience to shed tears-
>
Don Paolo
important!
DonP.
David7Gable <david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010310151936...@ng-fk1.aol.com...
> >
> >And God bless you for your youthful fervor and enthusiasm and having the
good
> >taste to recognize the greatness of Tebaldi.
>
>
dtritter
Don Paolo wrote:
>
> You certainly have the right to your opinion, but you're so friggin' snotty> in its' expression. I guess that's characteristic of the so-called> "pro"-intellectuals - you are devoid of human feelings & cannot/refuse to> understand the love, intensity, charisma, beauty that this great artist> generated & bestowed upon us.
>
> And, yes - you are to be pitied if you cringe at listening to Tebaldi; it is> certainly your loss! That's what music is all about, hunh? Bullshit!
now, now, paul, you know there was a brit who recently fainted dead away
on the internet when i uttered the dreaded "c" word ... i think it was
camelshit. think how this one will react when you retreat back up the
alphabet. as to his intonation challenged ears, he is more to be pitied
than censured ... unless he continues to spout his smug brand of
owlshit.
i was happy to call renata on her recent birthday. i think she got more
calls than did gable on his recent 9th birthday.
dft
Kentie
opera...@aol.com wrote on 3/9/01 11:14 PM:
> I am writing this about Renata Tebaldi. I am 17 years old and I have not been
> around that long. But I have been a fan of Renata Tebaldi for two years and
> know everything there is to know about her. She is the greatest singer in the
> world. Nobody could top her Desdemona, Tosca, Mimi, Manon Lescaut, Alice
> Ford,
> Aida. The Tosca in Rio with the encore of Vissi d' Arte. The fourth act
> Manon
> Lescaut in 1958 with Richard Tucker. 1959 Madama Butterfly with 48 curtain
> calls in her robe. I could go on, but it is not neccessary. Sure the notes
> are a little flat but listen to Scotto in La Boheme as Mussetta. She is
> awful.
> Tebaldi maintained her sound not her top but her sound until the end. If
> certain people listen to Tebaldi and cringe I feel very sorry for them. If
> you
> are waiting to hear a flat note you ruin the joy of listening and you deserve
> a
> flat note. And as a person ask anybody they will say the nicesest person. I
> have asked Robert Merrill and I have had the previlige to meet Franco Corelli
> and he said it was a great blessing to sing with her. When God blesses someone
> he doesn't miss in any part. He blessed Renata Tebaldi.
>
> Craig
Come on "Craig" (AI/EA), we all the mostess of the hostesses is Theresa
Stratas or Elena Suliotis.
--
---
"Say it Dawn. Liquid eye-liner" - Donald Dasher
Kenneth Stoeffler <kstoe...@earthnospamlink.net>
Take out the nospam to reply
http://www.angelfire.com/music2/KenStoefflersMusic
Andre Edouard
I didn't know you had a direct pipeline to God. I thought that was
Finley's gig. Don't be a poacher.
I've been watching this exchange with some interest. It's fascinating
to watch just how far you'll pull yourself away from the real world of
opera and lovers of beautiful singing, just to prove Tebaldi threw a
'clinker' now and then.
We all throw clinkers now and then, everyone, no one is immune, not
the finest musician, instrumentalist or singer.
Looks to me as if you're hangin' out around your perfectly tuned
computer looking to start another of those circular debates you seem to
love. Why, how, for the fun of it..shit, you're no fun. You're a regal
pain in the ass.
You aren't the "house intellectual," no one would have the temerity
to claim that title. But, your 'look down your nose at the peasantry'
attitude clearly shows in your posts.
Who are you trying to impress, there's no one around who'll bow to
your supposedly superior intellect. As a matter of fact, for the most
part you sound like a precocious child, proud of his new found
knowledge, who doesn't know when to quit. Aren't you embarrassed? You
should be. You do behave like the proverbial "infinite number of
monkeys." Press enough keys, once in a while something will make sense,
in spite of your attitudinal shortcomings.
But, your continual and really stupid denigration of one of the most
beloved singers of the past half century just makes you look fucking
foolish.
Now, take the Sommelier's advice. Turn off the computer, turn off
the music, take a deep breath..start walking east. When your hat
floats..you can stop walking.
You get home on the #18 bus.
Have exact change, no one wants wet bills.
AndreEdouard
Tom Silverwood
Tebaldi's Il Trovatore with Del Monaco, Erede et al., the old London
recording in a 2fer for $9.95. I liked it on LP in my salad days, and I
doubt that the years have caused it to suffer.
I will never forget Tebaldi's Forza Leonora in Chicago in the fifties.
She, Callas and Warren, among others, were instrumental in causing my
addiction to opera. Hang in there, Craig. It sounds like you've found a
lifetime of wonderful music and theater.
Tom Silverwood
Customoper
>Come on "Craig" (AI/EA), we all the mostess of the hostesses is Theresa
>Stratas or Elena Suliotis.
I can assure you that Craig is NOT Albert Innaurato or Emma Albani, if that is
your inference. He is exactly what he says he is.
Figaropcb
"Yes, God bless you! God doesn't care about singing in tune either."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I am sorry that you seem to be so very angry and bitter. And this
"know-it-all, holier-than-thou", intolerant slant to your posts is really
tiresome and boring (to say nothing about now lecturing the group about what
God cares about --- do you have a direct line to the Almighty?). And it's SO
nice of you to ridicule and quash a 17-year-old's enthusiasm. If there are
1,000 members on this list then there are 1,000 "Experts". What makes you
think you're the King of the friggin' Hill, or that any of the other "experts"
care about your incredibly lofty opinions.
Why don't you tell all of us in the group exactly how many live performances of
Renata Tebaldi (whether in tune or flat) you heard in the theatre? If I were
to venture a guess, I'd say zero.
Yeah, she sang flat. Happy now? She was also one of the greatest voices and
artists of the last century. And look around and take a good hard look (or
listen) to what sings her repertoire in today's generation (whether flat or on
pitch). Puppets compared to a Titan.
Take a chill pill.
Paul
Andre Edouard
AE
Andre Edouard
Now you're Emily Post? Shit, only _you_ can "attack defensively?" What
utter nonsense.
AndreEdouard
David7Gable wrote:
>
> >My point is that you are taking what Craig said much too literally, and I
> >find
> >your resonses to border on being childish. How about encouraging our very
> >young
> >opera fans instead of beating them up?
>
> I doubt that he's so fragile that I will have traumatized him. He might as
> well learn that not everybody in the world is always going to agree with his
> most cherished convictions. And it's time he learned not to attack
> defensively, as he did, when others honestly disagree with him.
>
> -david gable
Mitchell Kaufman
> Yes, only those "devoid of human feelings" could fail to recognize the one
true
> Church!
I knew if I waited long enough this thread would deteriorate into another
discussion about her! ;-)
MK
Customoper
>I'm not trying to impress anybody. Indeed, I knew it was against my better
>judgement to argue back with Craig, and I actually hesitated before I did,
>because I knew the kind of ad hominem abuse I would rain down on myself if I
>did
You should have listened to your better judgement.
> Anybody who doesn't worship at YOUR church will be
>attacked as a person.
David- I do believe that you are the one who started the "attacking" with your
foul tempered post.
It can't simply be the case that I honestly have a low
>opinion of Tebaldi.
Of course this can be, but what you wrote went a lot deeper than that, and was
highly insulting and snotty and uncalled for.
>I find the intolerance exhibited by the Tebaldi mafia on this newsgroup
>appalling
And I find this statement appalling. There is no "Tebaldi mafia." Anyone saying
what you said in even a somewhat civil way would most certainly not have been
"attacked"
. On the other hand, and to my very great
>surprise, I've now received over two dozen supportive e-mail messages
This always seems to be the "call of the "attacked." If this is true, why
don't these folks post to the list. I don't believe they are afraid of being
attacked. Any remotely polite post about any subject should not be attacked,
and wouldn't be. I could be wrong, but I frankly don't believe your statement.
Perhaps the two dozen were really one or two.
>"Most of the contributors to rmo are vile. Don't waste your time with them."
>
Why quote these people, or alleged people, if they don't want to be quoted?
>Nor did I start anything. I would never have responded to Craig's
>extraordinarily embarrassing post if it had not been specifically addressed
>to
>me.
I found nothing embarrassing about Craig's post. I found everything
embarrassing about your answer.
>my view cannot be the correct one, because,
>after all, the good Lord gave Tebaldi her voice:
>
>" When God blesses someone he doesn't miss in any part. He blessed Renata
>Tebaldi."
You say you don't believe in God. That is your right. But why must you trash
the sincere belief of a 17 year old in public? Leaving God out of this, I
believe in Craig and what he says. Your words are ugly and hateful.
Andre Edouard
> I'm entitled to express my opinions in such a forum. You
obviously do not agree that I am.<
Freely paraphrasing Voltaire..."I may not agree with what you say,
but I will defend with my life my right to try to kick you in the groin
if you try to say it."
Attitude, your overweening air of self assumed superiority. You're
not the only person allowed to be correct. On occasion I've been right,
so have others...and "surprise," while they may not agree, they do
understand the other position.
>and can't help it if it bothers me.>
To the degree that you'll pick your corespondent to pieces?
You're an atheist, me too, so what? Invoking God is a figure of
speech, not a religious rite....although I'm a little nervous about
Craig, I concede that one.
>I am genuinely amazed that that doesn't bother more people.<
Why, you're the world's foremost authority? Again, others are
entitled to their opinions, and likes and dislikes..I'm genuinely amazed
that bothers you to such a degree.
> And here's a piece of advice I've received:<
"Most of the contributors to rmo are vile. Don't waste your time
opera lovers to your tastes." Need a train schedule?
As to your innumerable letters of encouragement, tell the writers to
get on line with Auntie Emma..it's a long line..it's my métier.
You post on a public board, expect the stuff to hit the fan at any
time. You're only cyber squiggles, I shouldn't answer in my usual style
and grace? Save some understanding for people who passionately love
opera, and Tebaldi's singing. Couldn't hurt, could it?
AndreEdouard
"God will forgive me. C'est son métier."
Andre Edouard
AE
si...@webtv.net
have to pretty much agree with him this time. Why is it that many
members of this group can not deal with the fact that somebody just
might not care for one of their favorites and has the right to disagree
and to have a differing opinion and the right to express it? What
happens when this occurs: letter after letter trying to browbeat and
talk the infidel into submission. Thank you, we will not be accepting
any views that differ from ours today and we won't give up trying to
convert you to our pov. John
Ed Rosen
the tone and temerity, as I see it, of David's posts.
Ed
Romain
Ed Rosen wrote:
> at her best, which is the way all singers should be judged, I think, . .
.>
(Cough, choke, gasp!) Surely you're not serious. Please tell me you're not
serious.
Romain the Incredulous
Romain
> Price simply had to small a sound on top to be at all
> effective in any Verdi ensemble. She was all but inaudible in the great
Aida
> ensemble- her most famous role.>
Too small a sound on top? It is difficult to understand what you mean. Her
top was of a piece with the rest of her voice-fully integrated, beautifully
resonated, easily heard including in the ensembles
> The Tebaldi voice . . . . . .would drown out the
> entire orchestra and chorus. And then scale her voice down for the last
act for
> the Salce and Ave Maria.>
Drown out the orchestra and chorus? Come on Ed, the singer never lived who
could do that. It is hard to take your vocal opinions seriously when you get
so hyperbolic.
R.
Skip
The voice was beautiful and full, but not big enough for a Verdi
Soprano..........maybe on recordings, but not live......
"Romain" <jeanchr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:98fgur$593$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
REG
of THE great sounds, and I am one of those who find her often
extraordinarily moving - maybe not in terms of specificity of interpretation
or nuance, but all the same find a real emotionality in her best work that
is similar in a way to what I find moving in Tebaldi - so you can consider
me a big Price fan - but I really don't here the top as penetrating over an
orchestra. Heard her many times live...yes the voice was all of a piece (at
least in the first half of the career, and if you disregard the chest), and
it was, as the ads say "A voice like a banner flying", but in the Aida
ensembles in particular it didn'n NECESSARILY cut through. Are you judging
from live performances, or from a certain point in her career? I am curious.
Romain <jeanchr...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:98fgur$593$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
>
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 03/10/2001 10:15 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <98eu8j$q3$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>
For that one, MK should be awarded one huge Charlotte russe (with plenty of
whipped cream).
:>)) G/P Dave
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 03/10/2001 11:32 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <29743-3AA...@storefull-124.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Hurrah for sanity!
John, you are so right!!
There's too much "Love me, Love my dog" around here.
:>)) G/P Dave
Christina West
> >You certainly have the right to your opinion
> So far we're in total agreement.
> > but you're so friggin' snotty
> >in its' expression.
> My "friggin' snottiness" is attacked because I disagree with you.
> What about the extraordinary tone and content of Craig's post
> addressed to me? Or for that matter the really scurrilous rubbish
> that passes for discourse around here so much of the time,
> which descends to a level of incivility neither Craig nor I has
> remotely reached.
> > you are devoid of human feelings & cannot/refuse to
> >understand the love, intensity, charisma, beauty that this great artist
> >generated & bestowed upon us.
Ah!, David!... :)
Do you remember an Email I sent to you some time ago regarding rmo? :)
I know you're aware of it, but bear in mind that around 70% of the
contributors to this NG are not really fans of opera, they are fans of
singers. And they are fans with the same tunnel vision and the same
facility for genuine criticism where the object of their adulation is
concerned as is the average female pre-adolescent entranced by the latest
boy band. They know little about opera as music, or as an art form, and
care less. They chant the same mantras in thread after thread. Their
loves and hates are equally absolute. Their views are not amenable
to argument or criticism, since they are based on a kind of hobbyist's
obsession, not on rational analysis.
One of the results of this is the frequent reference to such absurdities as
a specific singer being 'blessed by God' and 'a nice person'. Probably
caused by the very faint feeling edging its way through a tiny crack in
their construction that there may just be something not perfect about their
idol, and the consequent need to justify their beliefs, however absurd and
irrelevant the justification, in order to maintain the edifice of adoration.
As soon as any well-worded and pointed shaft of criticism seems about to
penetrate their defences, or when someone dares to use even slightly
technical language, in regard to the venerated one, the witch hunt
against the presumptuous "intellectual" is in full cry. Yet they are very
happy to trot out their own little lexicon of jargon terms like 'squillo',
'passagio', 'lirico spinto coloratura drammatico' at the drop of a hat, even
if they have to supply the headgear themselves.
You do truly waste your time responding and discussing
with most of these people, their minds are closed, sealed and padlocked, and
with the exception of their pet loves and hates, pretty empty where opera is
concerned. Really, save yourself the effort, it's an exercise in futility.
Another 20% or so are more interested in personal attacks, flame wars and
ridicule. They rarely post anything at all about opera, and only
occasionally about singers. Can be fun to read now and then, and does no
harm. Regarding your reference to "the really scurrilous rubbish that
passes for discourse around here so much of the time" - really - don't take
it so seriously, think of it as a big kindergarten, which in many ways it
is.
As for the remaining 10%, you know who they are as well as I do. A dozen or
so posters who present interesting, varied, informed and relevant comment,
among whom I would include yourself.
Judicious use of a filter (a series of 'killfile' entries) can ease the
Niagra of irrelevance, triviality, monomania and abuse, but not stem it. I
don't use a filter as such, but I find the facility to 'Ignore' threads that
have got off-topic, were never on it, or are just not interesing to me
personally very useful.
Anyway, never mind about a short top, a bad ear and faulty intonation, the
question is:
WAS TEBALDI A LESBIAN?
Best wishes
Christina
Christina West
xi...@ukgateway.net
Opaffic
>Hurrah for sanity!
>
>John, you are so right!!
>
>There's too much "Love me, Love my dog" around here.
>
>:>)) G/P Dave
Yes, and as a relative newcomer to this group, it is strange!
Ed Rosen
Ed
Ed Rosen
Ed
Ed Rosen
us are. And then you sock it to Tebaldi with your final gratuitous question. So,
we can see how serious you are about opera. Vergogna a te.
Ed
Opaffic
REG
time I fit in all of the categories, and I think much of your letter is
right on the mark. The only rejoinder I would make to you (you seem very
well versed in opera - I presume who have some professional relationship to
it) is that the history of the craft is legitimately in large part a history
of singers and fandom, which admitedly on this ng sometimes becomes fandumb.
David and I have really gone at it several times, but I've grown to very
much respect and value what he contributes, as I do with your contributions,
but I wouldn't want to see people like Ed be tarred with the brush you're
using - I do think it's a little too broad. There is always, in my
experience, a place for anyone who is involved with opera performance where
objectivity merges with some highly personnal elements...we all have it.
I really think the problem on the group is not the diversity of approaches
to the same topic (or different topics, being performance vrs. history
vrs.textual analysis etc etc), or even some of the bad-temperedness on many
parts, but the real problem is that there is not a base of knowledge that
more than 20-30 people share. I kind of think that all the Charlotte Church
crap etc. is from people who really haven't heard much else, who are
restricted to the "top ten" even for performers, and that's what weighs the
group down. I do think there's a legitimate place for discussions of voice
placement, resonance, etc. and we KNOW that those things are inherently
pretty subjective - no system really works if the singer isn't uniquely
gifted.
So, I hope you keep writing, and not kill-filtering - it's a ridiculous
thing to do except with one or two yoyos
PS - DID SHE DO IT WITH CORELLI?
Christina West <xi...@ukgateway.net> wrote in message
news:98g1c7$iol$2...@lure.pipex.net...
Capa0848
>From: Ed Rosen custo...@earthlink.net
>Date: 03/11/2001 7:31 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <3AAB9C93...@earthlink.net>
>
>Of course I'm serious, Romain. Aren't you. Please don't choke on your
>lettuce.
>
>Ed
>
Somehow, Ed, I think we judge the singers we like by their best efforts and the
ones we don't care for by their worst.
For instance -- does the Gang of Four judge Domingo by his best efforts? No --
they don't even listen to much of his best recent work (in German in the 90's).
Not that Domingo is the only victim of this syndrome by any means -- we all do
it, and not only with opera.
Regards,
Pat
I see, and sing, by my own eyes inspired.
So let me be thy choir, and make a moan
Upon the midnight hours;
Thy voice, thy lute, thy pipe, thy incense sweet
From swinged censer teeming;
Keats, Ode to Psyche
REG
mocking the level of inquiry that sometimes goes on here. I'm much more
interested to know what kind of makeup Gedda wore when he went out at night.
Ed Rosen <custo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3AAB9DFF...@earthlink.net...
William D. Kasimer
Opaffic <opa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010311103559...@ng-mf1.aol.com...
> Thank you Christina. Very helpful to this newcomer.
And an equally helpful reminder to this veteran.
Killfiles are wonderful things. Now if only no one would quote the people
I've killfiled...
Bill
--
William D. Kasimer
wk...@mindspring.com
wkas...@quincymc.org
Capa0848
>From: "Christina West" xi...@ukgateway.net
>Date: 03/11/2001 6:12 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <98g1c7$iol$2...@lure.pipex.net>
>
>Christina
>
>Christina West
==============
"True wit is nature to advantage dressed,
What oft was thought but ne'er so well expressed."
But it's a fun kindergarten, albeit one for the musically insane! :-) , all the
same.
At least until someone hits me back first.
Ed Rosen
I was expecting such a question to me concerning my dislike for Domingo. I can tell
you that I did not like Domingo when I first saw him in 1966, and I have never
liked him. I saw him at what his fans would call his "best." IMO, it was not
"best." In the 70's, which should have been his peak years, he would constantly and
consistantly crack- and not just once in a while.
As a matter of fact, I have more respect for him today than I did back then. He has
maintened the basic quality of his warm timbre, and does very well in the roles he
carefully chooses, for the most part.
But the answer is, yes, I do base my opinions of Domingo from his best years.
Best
Ed
Ed Rosen
Ed
Customoper
>One of the results of this is the frequent reference to such absurdities as
>a specific singer being 'blessed by God' and 'a nice person'
You are taking something out of context, and saying it occurs frerquently, when
I don't believe it's ever occurred before yesterday. And I see absolutely
nothing wrong with a 17 year old opera lover feeling this way about his
favorite singer.
Now that you have psychoanalized at least 70% of the list, and found them
lacking, perhaps you should participate in a list that would have a 70%
approval rating for you, instead of a 70% disapproval rating!
>are very
>happy to trot out their own little lexicon of jargon terms like 'squillo',
>'passagio
and what is wrong with this type of "jargon" pray tell? I do not recall a vote
in which you were appointed list monitor.
>You do truly waste your time responding and discussing
>with most of these people, their minds are closed, sealed and padlocked,
And I feel, by what you wrote in your e-mail, that the above applies to you
above all others.. So I suppose I should stop wasting my time and responding to
you.
Capa0848
>From: custo...@aol.com (Customoper)
>Date: 03/10/2001 8:19 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id:
>
>This always seems to be the "call of the "attacked." If this is true, why
>don't these folks post to the list. I don't believe they are afraid of being
>attacked. Any remotely polite post about any subject should not be attacked,
>and wouldn't be.
>Ed
==============
Hi, Ed
With all due respect, that is almost comical. A couple of years ago I coined
the phrase "The Gang of Four" because (at times) virtually any positive word
about Domingo was "jumped" by the Fearsome Foursome with such clockwork
precision that I thought you guys had some kind of an Early Warning System --
"Incoming Domingo kudos -- Man all Battle Stations!" :-)
Not all of the "jumps" were hostile or nasty, of course, but the responses were
as predictable as the tides. And not everyone wants to get slammed (even
politely) over and over and over again, for allegedly having poor taste in
tenors.
I can well believe that there are a lot of people who hesitate to post their
true feelings here.
>Why quote these people, or alleged people, if they don't want to be quoted?
With that, I entirely agree.
Capa0848
>Message-id: <3AABA824...@earthlink.net>
>
>Dear Pat,
>
>I was expecting such a question to me concerning my dislike for Domingo. I
>can tell
>you that I did not like Domingo when I first saw him in 1966, and I have
>never
>liked him. I saw him at what his fans would call his "best." IMO, it was not
>"best." In the 70's, which should have been his peak years, he would
>constantly and
>consistantly crack- and not just once in a while.
>
>As a matter of fact, I have more respect for him today than I did back then.
>He has
>maintened the basic quality of his warm timbre, and does very well in the
>roles he
>carefully chooses, for the most part.
>
>But the answer is, yes, I do base my opinions of Domingo from his best years.
>
>Best
>Ed
===============
Hi, Ed
My misunderstanding -- I thought that you meant that we were to judge singers
based on their best *performances* which can be a different standard than
their best "years".
Even in one's best years, a singer can have bad nights, especially if he or she
is one not given to canceling.
And it's all so subjective isn't it? We get it in our head that we like A, and
we sit back and enjoy him, and discount the minor flaws, that, as humans, we
are all prone to.
And we get it in our head that we don't like B, (perhaps for good reason) and
subconsciously, we listen for the bad things instead of the good things.
We do it with politicians, too. And people that we know in our personal lives.
It's human nature, and it's impossible to eradicate it completely.
The important thing is that we realize that it's a reality to which we are all
subject.
Best,
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 03/11/2001 10:20 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <3AABA824...@earthlink.net>
Dear Ed Rosen,
It is patently clear that you have attended a great many performances
at the Metropolitan Opera.
When you give us your very considered and measured assessments of singers, it
appears that these are based on live performances you witnessed.
I saw Tebaldi only once (in SIMON BOCCANEGRA) and Domingo twice (VESPRI and LES
TROYENS).
My impressions are based entirely on the recordings I have heard and reheard
over the years.
In none of these recordings has Domingo's voice cracked -- not even once.
Tebaldi, especially in her earlier mono recordings was never once flat.
In addition, on recordings Leontyne Price is always audible and her voice
penetrates ensembles just as Verdi intends. Undisguised, however, are problems
she had at the lower end of the scale, where the voice tended to get husky.
Nevertheless, a lustrous voice obviously phonogenic.
So whenever you mention Domingo I think one should bear in mind that the tenor
referred to may not be the one we are accustomed to hearing on so many
recordings.
Would that be fair to say?
If recordings are not a sufficient basis for judgment, then why is it some
writers rate Enrico Caruso so highly (not to mention Giacomo Lauri-Volpi)?
All the best,
==G/P Dave
Opaffic
>Ed
I can understand why you feel that way, Ed, especially since you feel such
reverance toward Tebaldi. I do feel however that Christina was simply trying to
'lighten" things up a little, meaning no offence, and as one detatched from
this whole thing, it struck me as humorous. (Although, frankly, I have heard
this question raised before!)
Opaffic
p.s.Compared to the kinds of things written here, how can you call that comment
'bad taste'???!!! ( And, BTW, that was meant to be funny....or at least mildly
entertaining.)
Ancona21
"Jesus loves you; everyone else thinks you're an asshole"--Anon.
Ancona
Andre Edouard
Andre
Ancona21
true feelings here. >>
Yes. I have often refrained in this regard.
Ancona The Reticent
Ed Rosen
I can agree with what you say, up to a point. If, indeed, recordings are a fair
basis for judgment of a singer, than Bocelli is deserving of all the accolades the
recording companies claim for him. On a recording his voice is as big as a Caruso,
or a Melchior. In person, his voice is very small. So for that reason along, I do
not feel recordings are a fair method of evaluation. However, when they are
essentially all we are left with, as with Caruso, they must make do.
Of course Domingo never cracked on a recording. Or, rather, when he did, it was
edited out by all kinds of splicing and technical trickery. I know of almost no
commercial recording in which any singer cracks. However, in the commercial video
of Otello with Freni, Vickers, the tenor does crack a few times- especially in the
opening Esultate. I was always shocked that it wasn't fixed.
Of the singers I heard live, I believe I always base my opinions on their live
performances. That is the way it should be, IMO. It's how a singer delivers on
stage that makes him great, or good, or poor. Not antiseptic, sterile recordings
these days in which everything is done and redone to death.
Some beautiful voices were consistently "on" and always wonderful. And they gave
unstintingly of themselves on stage. They are my favorites. Tebaldi always gave.
Eileen Farrell almost never gave. I love Tebaldi. I do now like Farrell, though
there is no denying the majesty of that voice in it's prime, which, unfortunately,
was before she ever came to the Met.
Recordings can make Church sound as loud as Tebaldi or Farrell. I rest my case.
Best,
Ed
Ed Rosen
I can agree with what you say, up to a point. If, indeed, recordings are a fair
basis for judgment of a singer, than Bocelli is deserving of all the accolades the
recording companies claim for him. On a recording his voice is as big as a Caruso,
or a Melchior. In person, his voice is very small. So for that reason along, I do
not feel recordings are a fair method of evaluation. However, when they are
essentially all we are left with, as with Caruso, they must make do.
Of course Domingo never cracked on a recording. Or, rather, when he did, it was
edited out by all kinds of splicing and technical trickery. I know of almost no
commercial recording in which any singer cracks. However, in the commercial video
of Otello with Freni, Vickers, the tenor does crack a few times- especially in the
opening Esultate. I was always shocked that it wasn't fixed.
Of the singers I heard live, I believe I always base my opinions on their live
performances. That is the way it should be, IMO. It's how a singer delivers on
stage that makes him great, or good, or poor. Not antiseptic, sterile recordings
these days in which everything is done and redone to death.
Some beautiful voices were consistently "on" and always wonderful. And they gave
unstintingly of themselves on stage. They are my favorites. Tebaldi always gave.
Eileen Farrell almost never gave. I love Tebaldi. I do not like Farrell, though
there is no denying the majesty of that voice in it's prime, which, unfortunately,
was before she ever came to the Met.
Recordings can make Church sound as loud as Tebaldi or Farrell. I rest my case.
Best,
Ed
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 03/11/2001 11:57 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <20010311125711...@ng-mo1.aol.com>
There are certain tastes one acquires by repeatedy visiting this site.
I have cultivated a genuine respect for
Ancona The Pithy
His stiletto-pointed (and sometimes poignant) wit reveals the extent to which
he has made of himself a real asset to these ongoing dialogs.
So, may I ask one and all to join me in
21 cheers for Ancona The Awesome
:>)) G/P Dave
Stregata
>--
>they don't even listen to much of his best recent work (in German in the
>90's).
>
>Regards,
>
>Pat
But my dear, how can you so categorically assert your knowledge as to what we
listen or not listen to? Are you perhaps present in our music rooms or
commuting cars to witness if we listen to Domingo's German opus in the 90's or
not? Or is it perhaps that your most infinite and endless wisdom can scan
through our minds and divine our listening intentions or habits?
Yes, one of your most irritating personal features comes across once more, to
me at least, as a sign of infinite arrogance and self-righteousness. But I
should know better. Now most probably you'll come back saying something like
"It was not my intention," or "Pace, Pace, Stregata." As usual, casting the
stone and hiding the hand.
Stregata
Ed Rosen
revealing who they are from. In other words, don't post them. In truth, I have
received a number of private e-mails supporting what I said, and what this young
man says, about Tebaldi. I would certainly never consider making them public.
Secondly, you can tell your anonymous pen pal that this is certainly no
"Tebaldian hoax." What nonsensical piffle.
I remember Craig's first post about Tebaldi, and it began, "I am 16 years old,
etc." And don't forget- people are 16 for a year, and 17 for a year. Perhaps he
made a post six months ago, and said he was 17. He would still be 17 now, unless
his birthday was in the past six months, wouldn't he?
And, for the record, I seriously doubt if Andre Edouard is 17!!!
Ed
David7Gable wrote:
> >Now you're Emily Post?
>
> This query is irrelevant to anything I said.
>
> In any case, people attack from a defensive posture all the time. An example
> is Craig's "I pity you for not being able to disregard Tebaldi's intonation
> problems."
>
> For the record, here is e-mail I received today:
>
> "Who is this Andre Edouard? I think it is interesting that this supposed "17"
> year old poster did exactly the same sort of thing over a year ago, and was
> "17" then. I suspect that this is a Tebaldian hoax."
>
> -david gable
Stuart Naidich
Paranoia again?
Don't you mean a colossal hoax?. Or perhaps, a collossian hoax. Or better yet, based on your repetitive, endless and tiresome anti-Tebaldi mantra, a Callasian hoax!
Skip
"David7Gable" <david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010311153400...@ng-bj1.aol.com...
Tebaldi's sense of pitch and
> musicianship were so far inferior to Domingo's it isn't even funny.
>
> -david gable
Opaffic
>>true feelings here.
I will admit to feeling rather uncomfortable, until now, about sharing my
feelings about Tucker. Truth is, I admire a lot about singing, especially his
Ingemisco in the recording with Amara, but by and large, I simply don't enjoy
the sound of his voice. There....I feel better now.
Ed Rosen
be compared at all. What roles did they have in common? As has often been said,
and as I have probably been guilty sometimes, why denigrate one singer to the
betterment of another one. Especially comparing a tenor and soprano.
Ed
David7Gable wrote:
> >I can well believe that there are a lot of people who hesitate to post their
> >true feelings here.
>
> There is no question about this whatsoever. I am not now nor have I ever been
> a fan of Domingo's. I think he has a remarkable voice and a good ear, and I
> think he's a solid musician. I can easily understand the enthusiasm he
> generates. But he doesn't do a thing for me. I find Corelli, Di Stefano,
> Carreras, and Bjoerling, for example, infinitely more thrilling in their
> various ways (although I can't stand to listen to Di Stefano's bleating after
> the wonderfully characterful early years).
>
> Nevertheless, the manner in which anybody is attacked on this newsgroup for
> liking Domingo is nothing short of disgraceful. Tebaldi's sense of pitch and
Victor Han
I probably saw even less great stars live on stage or recital than Ed or
Dave, even though
the few occasions I had are quite memorable to me. They included Gobbi,
Ghiaurov.
Rysanek, Kim Borg, Corelli, Tucker, Bergonzi, Schwartzkopf.
Some that I saw, were legends but on their way down when I got to see them.
Then I was able to notice, that even though to me the performance was
disappointing, the public was in ecstasy!. One instance was in 1965, (when I
was much younger :=)) freshly emigrated out of Romania, I got to see Tosca
at Rome Opera with Tito Gobbi, who even though no longer in his vocal prime
then, was still an overwhelming Scarpia to see and hear.
Interestingly, Mario was played by Feruccio Tagliavini who by then had
practically no voice left.
And yet the public was cheering no-end "Caro Feruccio...etc" and I was left
wondering if those people
had any eyes and ears. Later I learned that fan attachments are as
subjective and lasting as any, and there
is not much wrong with that.
One regret I have was the missed opportunity to see Mark Reizen, who came to
Bucharest in 1952
and I only have some amazing stories passed to me by a relative who is a
music teacher and saw him
in concert and in Boris Godunov on stage.
Such impressions and others, including reading about great singers as Caruso
are of necessity part
of my experience and help me in appreciating great voices I can only hear on
records.
Incidentally, it seems to me that great singers are not always in need to be
"loud" but know how to handle
the voice, "to project" so as to be heard, even when or especially when,
they sing softly.
As for poor Charlotte Church, I happened to see her on PBS the other day and
no amount of technical massage can erase the impression I had, which was
that of a young lady in the process of destroying a good child's voice.
Very commercial, very sad.
Best regards, Victor
Victor Han <vh...@videotron.ca>
web http://russia-in-us.com/Music/GRV/
"Ed Rosen" <custo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3AABC61D...@earthlink.net...
Ed Rosen
her musicianship was impeccable, and I have never seen it questioned
before. The lady could sight-read music, and was a fine pianist. I think
her musicianship is every bit as good as Mr. Domingo's. Of course, she
had the very great common sense not to pick up a baton and try to conduct
an orchestra!
Ed
Ed Rosen
anyone else.
Ed
David7Gable wrote:
> ME: > >I am genuinely amazed that that doesn't bother more people.<
>
> YOU: > Why, you're the world's foremost authority?
>
> Why do I necessarily have to consider myself the world's foremost authority on
> anything to be genuinely amazed? Is it only the foremost authorities on things
> who are capable of genuine amazement? Your question in no way follows from my
> statement. I speak for a minority of one. Always. By definition.
>
> > Save some understanding for people who passionately love
> >opera, and Tebaldi's singing. Couldn't hurt, could it?
>
> You seem to think there is a 100% overlap between those who passionately love
> opera and those who admire Tebaldi's singing. Save some understanding for
> people who passionately love opera and can't stand Tebaldi's singing, who feel
> betrayed by her at least once in every phrase she ever sings. Couldn't hurt,
> could it?
>
> And again, although you will never concede this fact, while it is true that I
> expressed a dissenting opinion on Tebaldi, which is my right, it is not I who
> "attacked" first. I was attacked by Craig (although "attacked" is too strong a
> word), and then I responded to him. It is he and not I who initiated the
> little skirmish between us.
>
> -david gable
Ed Rosen
not one singer, great or not, who was and is universally admired.
Best,
Ed
Ed Rosen
playing fair.
Ed
David7Gable wrote:
> > To the degree that you'll pick your corespondent to pieces?
>
> This is rich coming from you. You have never once argued points in a post by
> me. You have never done anything but pick me personally to pieces. That is
> the exact opposite of what I did to Craig. I didn't attack him. I argued his
> points. Let him argue them back.
>
> >Invoking God is a figure of
> >speech, not a religious rite....although I'm a little nervous about
> >Craig, I concede that one.
>
> You all but concede that Craig was not just speaking rhetorically but somehow I
> am wrong for not recognizing that he was NOT speaking rhetorically. I can't
> possibly win when you've loaded the dice.
>
> -david gable
Skip
pull the top a little..... But to say she was not as good a musican as
Domingo is nonsense. Many singers of the past especially dramatics had this
"short" top, who the hell cares, it's the whole performance that counts, not
one or two high notes that are a little under pitch.......news:3AABED04...@earthlink.net...
Andre Edouard
Stuart Naidich wrote:
> "David
> Paranoia again?"
Aaahh, a pattern emerges.
This smacks of the dread cate creature..can he be so delusionally
diabolical?
Evidently.
AndreEdouard
Andre Edouard
>
> Ed
Oh, would that I was...
"Et que peux-tu pour moi?"
"Dis-moi d'abord ce que tu veux."
Je veux la JEUNESSE. De spirit is willing etc......
AE
Andre Edouard
This D7G is so whacko, that I'm afraid the sense of paranoia I feel
in his posts may be indicitive of more severe problems.
I wonder if anyone stole his youthful sense of humor.
I wonder if he does this for enjoyment, or out of some deep seated
need to prove himself smarter than Ben Stein.
I wonder where the yellow went, when you brushed your teeth with
Pepsodent.
I wonder if D7G lives in or near Houston.
Remember, paranoids have enemies too.
Andre
Capa0848
>From: stre...@aol.com (Stregata)
>Date: 03/11/2001 12:16 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <20010311151603...@ng-ca1.aol.com>
>
>>For instance -- does the Gang of Four judge Domingo by his best efforts? No
>>--
>>they don't even listen to much of his best recent work (in German in the
>>90's).
>>
>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Pat
>
>But my dear, how can you so categorically assert your knowledge as to what we
listen or not listen to?
>
** And the last time I made PRECISELY this same point and added the
qualification "except for Stregata", (knowing you to be an admirer of much of
Wagner's music, based on your many postings to that effect here), you raised
holy hell and asked me never to make reference to you or your preferences here
again. And I'm fairly sure that I haven't mentioned your name here since.
I'm having a little trouble understanding what would make you happy.
Other than my painful death, that is.
>Yes, one of your most irritating personal features comes across once more, to
me at least, as a sign of infinite arrogance and self-righteousness.
**Please tell me something. Why is it that when you (and other True Believers)
are supremely confident of your beliefs that *that* is conviction. But when
some heretic like me questions those beliefs, and suggests that there might
possibly be another way of looking at something, -- that *that* is arrogance.
** And not just run-of-the-mill arrogance. Self-righteous arrogance. Infinite
arrogance.
But I should know better. Now most probably you'll come back saying something
like "It was not my intention," or "Pace, Pace, Stregata." As usual, casting
the stone and hiding the hand.
>
Stregata
-------------------------
No, thanks, I think I'll pass.
I make it a rule to have only one apology greeted with disdain each week, and
I'm already at my limit.
But thanks just the same.
I hope the rest of your day is free from arrogance and self-righteousness.
Pat
I see, and sing, by my own eyes inspired.
So let me be thy choir, and make a moan
Upon the midnight hours;
Thy voice, thy lute, thy pipe, thy incense sweet
From swinged censer teeming;
Keats, Ode to Psyche