Aria in Citizen Kane
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Thu, 12 August 1999 12:56 PM EDT
>Message-id: <29267-37...@newsd-612.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
>
> While watching that awesome film, Citizen Kane again recently, I
>became curious about the opera sequence in which Susan "sings" an aria.
>The setting appears to have an oriental / Egyptian look. Is this music
>from a bona fide opera, or is it a total invention of Bernard Herrmann?
>Thais came to mind as a possible candidate, but as I'm unfamiliar with
>it, that's just a guess. If sung rather than slaughtered, the aria
>would sound pretty good, IMHO. Kane buffs, please help!
>
>Many thanks in advance,
>~Roger
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The ersatz opera is called SALAMBO (sp). It was invented for the movie.
The scene with stagehands in the flies holding their noses reflects my (not so
humble) opinion of the entire movie -->obvious and overrated despite some
excellent cinematography.
==G/P Rosebud
Roger D. White
Ivrys88
I believe the "opera" excerpts, from a work supposedly titled Salammbo, were
composed especially for the film score by Bernard Herrmann. I recall some story
that the singer (it may have been the actual actress cast in the role) actually
had vocal training, but was forced to sing much higher than her natural range,
thus sounding suitably inept.
FWIW, there is an actual opera called Salammbo by Reyer, premiered in Brussels
in 1890, and at the Met in 1901. It lasted three performances.
andre35
A.
GRNDPADAVE wrote:
> >From: ra...@webtv.net (Roger D. White)
> >Date: Thu, 12 August 1999 12:56 PM EDT
> >Message-id: <29267-37...@newsd-612.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
> >
> > While watching that awesome film, Citizen Kane again recently, I
> >became curious about the opera sequence in which Susan "sings" an aria.
> >The setting appears to have an oriental / Egyptian look. Is this music
> >from a bona fide opera, or is it a total invention of Bernard Herrmann?
> >Thais came to mind as a possible candidate, but as I'm unfamiliar with
> >it, that's just a guess. If sung rather than slaughtered, the aria
> >would sound pretty good, IMHO. Kane buffs, please help!
> >
> >Many thanks in advance,
> >~Roger
Claud H. Shirley III
>
> While watching that awesome film, Citizen Kane again recently, I
> became curious about the opera sequence in which Susan "sings" an aria.
> The setting appears to have an oriental / Egyptian look. Is this music
> from a bona fide opera, or is it a total invention of Bernard Herrmann?
> Thais came to mind as a possible candidate, but as I'm unfamiliar with
> it, that's just a guess. If sung rather than slaughtered, the aria
> would sound pretty good, IMHO. Kane buffs, please help!
>
> Many thanks in advance,
> ~Roger
Bernard Herrmann wrote it. Dame Kiri sings it complete and beautifully
in one of her video concerts.
james jorden
Kane's most important vehicle is an opera called Salaambo, and Hermann
deliberately imitated the style of fin de siecle French opera a la
Massenet, Reyer and so forth.
The aria was recorded in "sung, not slaughtered" style by Kiri te Kanawa in
the mid-1970s for a disc of Hermann's soundtrack music.
"Roger D. White" wrote:
> While watching that awesome film, Citizen Kane again recently, I
> became curious about the opera sequence in which Susan "sings" an aria.
> The setting appears to have an oriental / Egyptian look. Is this music
> from a bona fide opera, or is it a total invention of Bernard Herrmann?
> Thais came to mind as a possible candidate, but as I'm unfamiliar with
> it, that's just a guess. If sung rather than slaughtered, the aria
> would sound pretty good, IMHO. Kane buffs, please help!
>
> Many thanks in advance,
> ~Roger
--
james jorden
jjo...@ix.netcom.com
http://www.parterre.com
"I'm a great believer in vulgarity. All we need is a splash of bad taste.
NO taste is what I'm against."
--- Diana Vreeland
james jorden
setting of a speech from Racine's PHEDRE, very high and dramatic in
tessitura. It ends with the wonderfully operatic words, "Prete-moi ton epee,
et frappe!" ("Turn your sword to me, and strike"), leaping to a sustained
final high D.
I sometimes wonder what Eleanor Steber could have done with this aria. The
te Kanawa version, lovely though it is, lacks a certain thrust and attack
that I think Steber could have done brilliantly.
I wonder if Deborah Voigt has ever looked at this aria?
Feuillade
> While watching that awesome film, Citizen Kane
> again recently, I became curious about the opera
> sequence in which Susan "sings" an aria. The setting
> appears to have an oriental / Egyptian look. Is this
> music from a bona fide opera, or is it a total invention
> of Bernard Herrmann?
It was an invention of Herrmann's because, as Orson Welles pointed out in a
telegram to the composer at the time, there is no opera that starts out with
the soprano leading with her chin as Susan Alexander Kane does in the film.
> Thais came to mind as a possible candidate, but as
> I'm unfamiliar with it, that's just a guess.
The faux-opera is intended as a parody of Thais, and Herodiade. Welles knew a
little something about opera, having made his stage debut as a small child in
Madama Butterfly.
The aria was sung in the film by a sixteen-year-old girl named Jean Forward,
who had a tiny voice and was, I believe, instructed to sing badly.
> If sung rather than slaughtered, the aria would sound pretty
> good, IMHO.
Kiri Te Kanawa agrees with you -- she has recorded the aria.
And I believe Eileen Farrell has performed it, although I don't know if she
ever recorded it.
Tom Moran
http://members.aol.com/Feuillade/TomMoran.index.html
My 100 Best Novels List:
http://members.aol.com/Feuillade/TomMoran25.index.html
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Ed Guillen
"Roger D. White" wrote:
>
> While watching that awesome film, Citizen Kane again recently, I
> became curious about the opera sequence in which Susan "sings" an aria.
> The setting appears to have an oriental / Egyptian look. Is this music
> from a bona fide opera, or is it a total invention of Bernard Herrmann?
<snip>
I may be delusional but I vaguely remember that in a recording of the
film score
the aria, by Herrmann, was recorded in full by Kiri Te Kanawa. Not in
the movie of course,
but for this cd of the score from the movie.
Regards,
Ed Guillen
John Yohalem
While watching that awesome film, Citizen Kane again recently, I
became curious about the opera sequence in which Susan "sings" an aria.
The setting appears to have an oriental / Egyptian look. Is this music
from a bona fide opera, or is it a total invention of Bernard Herrmann?
The setting is Carthage between Punic Wars, c. 2nd century BCE. Salammbo is
Hannibal's aunt. As I recall, Welles wanted to use the real opera, but the
music was still in copyright, and he decided to fake it for thirty seconds
of screen time.
The opera is based on Flaubert's worst book, in which he does for ancient
Carthage what he did for Normandy in Mme Bovary (which I don't like either,
but for different reasons). Every exacting little detail is got right,
except the psychology of the main character, which is thin, thin, thin.
Charles Ludlam made a charming dumb play out of it. He played the title
role. A masterpiece, but then anything with Charles in it was a masterpiece.
Had to be.
John Yohalem
ench...@herodotus.com
"Opera depends on the happy fiction that feeling can be sustained over
impossibly long stretches of time." -- Joseph Kerman
Don Drewecki
The aria from "Salammbo" is now on an RCA CD, reissued in Dolby Surround, with Kiri
TeKanawa and Charles Gerhardt.
--
Don Drewecki
<dre...@rpi.edu>
Skip
Henson Keys
>Just in passing, let us note that the "Ah, cruel!" aria in CITIZEN KANE is a
>setting of a speech from Racine's PHEDRE, very high and dramatic in
>tessitura. It ends with the wonderfully operatic words, "Prete-moi ton epee,
>et frappe!" ("Turn your sword to me, and strike"), leaping to a sustained
>final high D.
>
>I sometimes wonder what Eleanor Steber could have done with this aria. The
>te Kanawa version, lovely though it is, lacks a certain thrust and attack
>that I think Steber could have done brilliantly.
>
>I wonder if Deborah Voigt has ever looked at this aria?
>
>-
What an excellent idea! Voigt might be a marvel with this piece. I
must say, though Te Kanawa normally bores me to distraction, I like
her work in this aria. She actually seems to care about the emotional
context for once.
Matthew B. Tepper
ra...@webtv.net pondered what I'm pondering as follows...
>
> While watching that awesome film, Citizen Kane again recently, I
>became curious about the opera sequence in which Susan "sings" an aria.
>The setting appears to have an oriental / Egyptian look. Is this music
>from a bona fide opera, or is it a total invention of Bernard Herrmann?
>would sound pretty good, IMHO. Kane buffs, please help!
It is a total invention of Bernard Herrmann.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/index.htm
My main music page --- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/berlioz.htm
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
"Compassionate Conservatism?" * "Tight Slacks?" * "Jumbo Shrimp?"
Matthew B. Tepper
feui...@aol.com pondered what I'm pondering as follows...
>
>The aria was sung in the film by a sixteen-year-old girl named Jean
>Forward, who had a tiny voice and was, I believe, instructed to sing
>badly.
Then we must truly live in the age of prodigies, because I can think of
an even younger girl who can give it exactly the same treatment.
Remake, anyone?
kos
Orchestra in the 1940s (omitting the high D), but she never recorded it.
I wonder if Renee Fleming would have an interest in it.....
Bob Kosovsky
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Wotan99
here
>The scene with stagehands in the flies holding their noses reflects my (not
>so
>humble) opinion of the entire movie -->obvious and overrated despite some
>excellent cinematography.
Well I disagree-when ever I see it after a few yrs. I'm continually impressed
with it-self-conscious, wonderful artifice, right on the mark about America, (I
always see that real photo of WR Hearst in my mind around the time he runs and
loses the race for governor when the political rally scene takes place in the
film...rich men yearning for more power, politics corrupted by $, love nests
and scandal--we haven't changed) and maybe less interesting about the mysteries
of the psyche.
It's the great films, or operas that become cliches-and that's a compliment
W99
james jorden
> I wonder if Renee Fleming would have an interest in it.....
Yes, I am sure she would perform it just as the composer intended it to be sung.
Terrymelin
>so
>humble) opinion of the entire movie -->obvious and overrated despite some
>excellent cinematography.
>
Hard to take anyone seriously who considers "Citizen Kane" one of the greatest
films of the 20th century "over rated."
Terry Ellsworth
Ivrys88
based on soprano Sybil Sanderson, who created the title role in Thais.
Don Drewecki
Skip, what a great idea! Now, I WOULD pay to hear CC do just that aria.
--
Don Drewecki
<dre...@rpi.edu>
Cramnella
>based on soprano Sybil Sanderson, who created the title role in Thais.
>
>
real inspiration for the Kane / Susan story was the guy who built the Chicago
Opera House for his "singer" mistress.
Marc Allen
Capa081348
>From: terry...@aol.com (Terrymelin)
>Date: Fri, 13 August 1999 07:38 AM EDT
>Message-id: <19990813073857...@ng-cc1.aol.com>
I think it is unquestionably one of the most important films from a
cinematographic point of view. I am not a student of film techniques, and take
much of motion picture wizardry somewhat for granted. But any number of people
have told me that Welles' (a very young man, then) use of unusual camera
angles, lighting etc. was a remarkable tour de force for that time, and an
enormous influence on other film-makers around the world.
But I would agree with Dave that in terms of the elements that cause us
non-professionals to rhapsodize about great films, (plot, character
development, acting, dialogue) the film is good, but hardly head and shoulders
above many of the other fine films of the 1930's and 40's.
Emotionally, "Citizen Kane" does not begin to convey the impact of "The Life
of Emile Zola", "The Grapes of Wrath", "Mrs. Miniver", "Casablanca", "The Best
Years of Our Lives" and "Treasure of Sierra Madre", just to name a few of its
great contemporaries.
At least not for me.
Best Regards,
Pat Finley
Der Reine Tor
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Fri, 13 August 1999 02:37 PM EDT
>Message-id: <19990813143752...@ng-cd1.aol.com>
Just because we see it so often, a film that is very touching and really
involves time travel should not be overlooked: "It's a Wonderful Life".
Every one of the films that Pat has named contains scenes that I find
emotiuonal touching. "Citizen Kane", on the other hand, in my opinion, is
emotionally dessicated.
If you like it, fine. I will still take you seriously if you do. I just don't
get the "awesome" quality that some find in it.
All the best,
G/P Dave
Matthew B. Tepper
ivr...@aol.com pondered what I'm pondering as follows...
>
>The character of the second wife Susan (the inept opera singer) is
>supposedly based on soprano Sybil Sanderson, who created the title role
>in Thais.
And for whom Massenet wrote _Esclarmonde_.
planet...@uswest.net
ra...@webtv.net (Roger D. White) wrote:
> While watching that awesome film, Citizen Kane again recently, I
> became curious about the opera sequence in which Susan "sings" an
aria.
<snip> Kane buffs, please help!
>
> Many thanks in advance,
> ~Roger
Roger, for further explanation of this score (though everyone seems to
have covered it pretty well for you) and a fascinating revision of the
history of this movie, see Pauline Kael's The Citizen Kane Book,
published by Little, Brown in l97l, which includes her New Yorker
article Raising Kane plus the complete script, or just look up the New
Yorker article. (I don't know the date.) The research, insight and
detective work is fascinating, as is the brilliant and gloriously
disreputable figure of Herman Mankiewicz, whom Kael convincingly
presents as being much more responsible for the script than Welles was
to allow him credit for. A great read.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Terrymelin
>emotionally dessicated.
I certainly do not thing that "emotion" is the only qualification for greatness
but that seems to be your argument.
"Citizen Kane" is a tour-de-force of writing, acting, cinematography, music,
etc. Everything you could possibly imagine. It established elements of
filmmaking for the FIRST TIME and they are still being used today. It's way of
advancing story and plot were revolutionary. Perhaps I am too much a "film
student" and not average enough but "Kane" does things that still blow me away
today. Is it my favorite film? Nope. That's "Casablanca." But it is the
greatest film ever made and it would behoove you to recognize that even if you
don't connect to it "emotionally."
Terry Ellsworth
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Fri, 13 August 1999 05:18 PM EDT
>Message-id: <19990813171817...@ng-fl1.aol.com>
Only cattle and equines should be hooved.
-
We each have our opinions and tastes. Of course, in the Soviet Union you could
always find a Stalin to tell you what to like and what not to like.
-
I do not think that "Citizen Kane" is a bad movie, but I prefer every one of
the movies named by Pat Finley with the possible exception of "Mrs Miniver".
For that one I would substitute "How Green was my Valley" or "Friendly
Persuasion" or even "Dr. Strangelove".
-
It is a wonderful thing that you derive so much enjoyment from all the features
of "Citizen Kane". Please do not deny other from finding their maximum
enjoyment from other films.
-
==G/P Dave
Ancona21
<< a remarkable tour de force for that time, and an
enormous influence on other film-makers around the world.
<<But I would agree with Dave that in terms of the elements that cause us
non-professionals to rhapsodize about great films, (plot, character
development, acting, dialogue) the film is good, but hardly head and shoulders
above many of the other fine films of the 1930's and 40's.
<<Emotionally, "Citizen Kane" does not begin to convey the impact of "The Life
of Emile Zola", "The Grapes of Wrath", "Mrs. Miniver", "Casablanca", "The Best
Years of Our Lives" and "Treasure of Sierra Madre", just to name a few of its
great contemporaries. >>
Of the films you mention, in my judgment only The Grapes of Wrath and The
Treasure of the Sierra Madre qualify as "great films"
given your criteria: plot, character development, acting, dialogue (even
without considering cinematography and editing, which these two films possess
in greater quality than the other four you list).
Ancona21
Nemo me impune lacessit
Matthew B. Tepper
grndp...@aol.com pondered what I'm pondering as follows...
>
>Only cattle and equines should be hooved.
Doesn't this also apply to our occasional Welsh yobbo, Neil Cudd?
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Fri, 13 August 1999 07:13 PM EDT
>Message-id: <7p28pv$c...@journal.concentric.net>
>
>In article <19990813180928...@ng-ba1.aol.com>,
>grndp...@aol.com pondered what I'm pondering as follows...
>>
>>Only cattle and equines should be hooved.
>
>Doesn't this also apply to our occasional Welsh yobbo, Neil Cudd?
>
Isn't a yobbo an ill wind that blows no good? Shouldn't I stop before I start
raising Cain?
I would if I Cudd, but I am not Abel.
==G/P Rosebud
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Fri, 13 August 1999 06:45 PM EDT
>Message-id: <19990813184531...@ng-fa1.aol.com>
I'll drink to that with a potent potable made germ-free as dramatized in "The
Life of Louis Pasteur", a truly munificent film.
-
==G/P "Let me see your badges"
robert seigler
"I think it is unquestionably one of the most important films from a
cinematographic point of view. I am not a student of film techniques,
and take much of motion picture wizardry somewhat for granted. But any
number of people have told me that Welles' (a very young man, then) use
of unusual camera angles, lighting etc. was a remarkable tour de force
for that time, and an enormous influence on other film-makers around the
world.
"But I would agree with Dave that in terms of the elements that cause us
non-professionals to rhapsodize about great films, (plot, character
development, acting, dialogue) the film is good, but hardly head and
shoulders above many of the other fine films of the 1930's and 40's.
"Emotionally, "Citizen Kane" does not begin to convey the impact of "The
Life of Emile Zola", "The Grapes of Wrath", "Mrs. Miniver",
"Casablanca", "The Best Years of Our Lives" and "Treasure of Sierra
Madre", just to name a few of its great contemporaries."
comment:
pat and G/P DAVE are two contributors to this group whose opinions on
opera i regard very highly. it therefore becomes shocking that their
perception of film should be so misinformed.
to set matters straight at the outset, let me say one is no more obliged
to like CITIZEN KANE than one is forced to enjoy PARSIFAL. but what one
must do in both cases is admit the importance these works have in the
history of their art forms. KANE is a seminal influence on cinema in a
way the other films pat mentions are not.
what is most amazing to me is that our two opera experts seem to have
missed the fact this film is totally 'operatic.' pat looks for 'plot,
character developement, acting and dialog' as essential ingredients of a
film, but i would wager spends no time whatever in considering these
elements in an opera. for welles, movies are operas in which the role of
music is taken over by visual imagery.
the technical innovations of CITIZEN KANE cab easily be mistaken as
'tricks' and 'ornaments.' just so, the passages of vocal display in
NORMA were thought needless showboating, until callas demonstrated THE
DISPLAY WAS THE DRAMA.
perhaps the best film to compare with KANE is A WONDERFUL LIFE, which
G/P DAVE so admires. the capra film gives us conventional heroes and
villains, a small town 'average american' fighting the money grubbing
banker. we freely identify with jimmy stewart, and know exactly who to
love and hate.
charles foster kane is another story completely. he begins as an average
american, then by a stroke of 'luck' falls into a fortune and become a
ward of the bank! kane is both the hero and the villain of his own life.
when kane meets susan alexander, his first impression is the she
represents 'a cross section of the american people.' he just happens to
be running for office at the time, so that his wooing of susan is an
extension of his political ambition. ironically, the one causes the
scandal which aborts the other desire.
kane then forces susan into her opera career, not because she has the
ambition, but because susan tells him her mother wanted it for her. near
the end of the film, we discover kane still keeps his mother's stove
from the days of her poverty. just as kane was 'ruined' when his mother
turned him over to the banker, kane ruins susan through her mother's
desire. the abused child become the abuser.
there are actually two 'opera scenes' in the film, one told from the
viewpoint of kane's best friend, the other from that of susan herself.
in a way, they are the heart of the film, but this requires 'getting' an
in-joke derived from the common heritage of movies.
in the famous picnic-funeral scene at xanadu, the sky is filled with
ominous 'birds' in the background. if you are a real movie buff, they
will look oddly familiar. in fact, they are a process shot from the
movie KING KONG. those 'birds' are pterodactyls!
if you happen to remember this, you might look at KING KONG again, and
find another odd similarity to CITIZEN KANE. when we see kong strapped
in chains for exhibition, newspaper photographers startle him with
flashbulbs. a voice yells: STOP! HE THINKS YOU'RE ATTACKING THE GIRL!
this is, in fact, kong motive to break free and destroy the city.
both 'opera scenes' in KANE share one common shot: a rehearsal light
blinking to alert the start of the performance. the flash recalls the
flashbulbs in the monster movie, and the best friend becomes alienated
from kane BECAUSE KANE THINKS HE'S ATTACKING THE GIRL. in the scene of
their breakup, the friend actually suggests kane move to some dessert
island where he can 'lord it over the monkeys.' that island is xanadu,
where CITIZEN KANE turns from KING KONG into KUBLA KHAN.
now re-read your colredge and find the lines:
"it was an abyssinian maid,/ and on a dulcimer she played/ singing of
mount abora."
now you know why the opera was SALAMMBO.
at the end of the film, the report who was looking for 'rosebud' says it
was just one piece of a jigsaw puzzle - a missing piece. then the camera
moves on and shows the
audience this one missing piece. it is not meant to solve the riddle,
but to invite us to watch the whole film over, trying to incorporate the
clue. in doing so, we only find more links to mystery.
when we watch A WONDERFUL LIFE each christmas we participate in a ritual
whose value is that it's always the same. when we get the key to CITIZEN
KANE however, we watch it repeatedly from an every expanding point of
view. it is, quite simply, a work of infinite readings.
bob
"Denn wie man sich bettet, so liegt man.
Es deckt einen da keiner zu."
Brecht
si...@webtv.net
dozen times over the years and certainly agree that it is a beautifully
shot film, wonderfully acted and written but I just don't get the whole
thing with its ending up as the greatest movie ever made thing. There
are so many other movies from that time period that are at least equally
good especially the bumper crop year of 1939
but that should be for a film ng not here so I will now sign off.
John
si...@webtv.net
Matthew B. Tepper
>As Nathan Detroit sings, "So sue me."
No "so"; it's "Hire a lawyer and sue me," and variants thereof.
(Hey, I've still got the score of "Guys and Dolls" memorized, having
prepared and conducted a run of 8 performances of it in Minneapolis back
in 1982.)
Eduardo J. Baez
Gustave Flaubert's novel Salammbo. Kiri Te Kanawa's live version of this
made for cinema aria can be found in her "Dame Kiri turns 50" CD, which is
entitled "Kiri! Her greatest hits Live." (London label).
andre35 <and...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:37B321F4...@bellsouth.net...
> Wait. Wait, don't go. You forgot your sled.
> A.
>
> GRNDPADAVE wrote:
>
> > >From: ra...@webtv.net (Roger D. White)
> > >Date: Thu, 12 August 1999 12:56 PM EDT
> > >Message-id: <29267-37...@newsd-612.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
> > >
> > > While watching that awesome film, Citizen Kane again recently, I
> > >became curious about the opera sequence in which Susan "sings" an aria.
> > >The setting appears to have an oriental / Egyptian look. Is this music
> > >from a bona fide opera, or is it a total invention of Bernard Herrmann?
> > >Thais came to mind as a possible candidate, but as I'm unfamiliar with
> > >it, that's just a guess. If sung rather than slaughtered, the aria
> > >would sound pretty good, IMHO. Kane buffs, please help!
> > >
> > >Many thanks in advance,
> > >~Roger
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > The ersatz opera is called SALAMBO (sp). It was invented for the movie.
John Yohalem
>Just because we see it so often, a film that is very touching and really
>involves time travel should not be overlooked: "It's a Wonderful Life".
Oh, well, if you like Capracorn, what can we say? But we're not talking
about film here -- we're talking about cheap shmaltz.
Hans Lich
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Fri, 13 August 1999 09:01 PM EDT
>Message-id: <21284-37...@newsd-121.bryant.webtv.net>
>
>Does it hurt to behoove yourself? Just curious. John
Not really. My wife gives me time off for good behoovior.
==G/P Kane
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Fri, 13 August 1999 08:55 PM EDT
>Message-id: <19281-37...@newsd-123.bryant.webtv.net
snip / snip
>to set matters straight at the outset, let me say one is no more obliged to
like CITIZEN KANE than one is forced to enjoy PARSIFAL. but what one must do in
both cases is admit the importance these works have in the history of their art
forms. KANE is a seminal influence on cinema in a way the other films pat
mentions are not.
>
=====================
This paragraph implies the essential proposition that I am disputing.
It matters not a whit to me whether a work is "seminal" or not. I am in
interested in the art per se not in the art history.
EURYANTHE was probably Weber's most "important" opera because it is one in
which he liberated himself from the singspiele (by writing a totally "musicked"
opera) thereby pointing a direction that culminates in Wagner's LOHENGRIN.
But, as a work of art, I find EURYANTHE much inferior to DER FREISCHUETZ where
the singspiele form is fully preserved. What is innovative is the use of a
homely legend that gives spice to the work.
I love Beethoven and Mozart not because they brought about Mahler and
Schoeberg, but because they wrote superb music that needs no art historian's
lecture to enjoy.
So I grant that Citizen Kane had a greater impact on the history of cinematic
production than did Wuthering Heights or The Wizard of Oz (also made in 1939).
But I just happen to gain more from Heathcliff's tribulations and Dorothy's
triumph than I do from the Hearst parable.
So with the thumbscrew admonition, "...what one MUST [emphasis added] do in
both cases [viz, PARSIFAL and CITIZEN KANE] is admit the importance these
works have in the history of their art forms.." my rejoinder is "feh".
As Nathan Detroit sings, "So sue me."
==G/P Hold the MUST-ard
andre35
a.
GRNDPADAVE wrote:
> >From: anco...@aol.com (Ancona21)
> >Date: Fri, 13 August 1999 06:45 PM EDT
> >Message-id: <19990813184531...@ng-fa1.aol.com>
> >
> >Pat Finley wrote:
> >
> ><< a remarkable tour de force for that time, and an
> >enormous influence on other film-makers around the world.
> >
> ><<But I would agree with Dave that in terms of the elements that cause us
> >non-professionals to rhapsodize about great films, (plot, character
> >development, acting, dialogue) the film is good, but hardly head and
> >shoulders
> >above many of the other fine films of the 1930's and 40's.
> >
> ><<Emotionally, "Citizen Kane" does not begin to convey the impact of "The
> >Life
> >of Emile Zola", "The Grapes of Wrath", "Mrs. Miniver", "Casablanca", "The
> >Best
> >Years of Our Lives" and "Treasure of Sierra Madre", just to name a few of its
> >great contemporaries. >>
> >
Wotan99
>pat and G/P DAVE are two contributors to this group whose opinions on
>opera i regard very highly. it therefore becomes shocking that their
>perception of film should be so misinformed.
>
>to set matters straight at the outset, let me say one is no more obliged
>to like CITIZEN KANE than one is forced to enjoy PARSIFAL. but what one
>must do in both cases is admit the importance these works have in the
>history of their art forms. KANE is a seminal influence on cinema in a
>way the other films pat mentions are not.
>
>what is most amazing to me is that our two opera experts seem to have
>missed the fact this film is totally 'operatic.' pat looks for 'plot,
>character developement, acting and dialog' as essential ingredients of a
>film, but i would wager spends no time whatever in considering these
>elements in an opera. for welles, movies are operas in which the role of
>music is taken over by visual imagery.
>
There is much in this posting that I agree with.(a bit that loses me) But it
goes to a point I've raised here often-the difference between what we
like-turns us on- and an intellectual capacity to recognize greatness in art
that may not be for us. We've established that people approach this
differently, and for some liking and understanding, and enjoying are the
criteria-for others, such as myself, it works a little differently. People
think that's implying a hierarchy of values-that clearly I think one is
superior-I think one is broader but not superior-different. So I often admire,
respect, am fascinated by things I don't find totally to my nature. (Picasso is
an example I often mention) But I do believe that the highest art forms, and
they happen to be the ones I enjoy, combine many aspects into an artful,
complex, multi-demensional package. And that's what Kane does.
To dismiss Kane, while certainly a minority view, and assuming not a willful
contrarian one, misses (to my eyes) not so much its role in cinema history, but
its brilliance as film and art. (and familiarity should not breed indifference,
or boredom-for me repeated viewings of it find me smiling at its perfection.) I
said earlier that if it's weak in anything, it is in its 1930s somewhat
simplistic psychology. But to hear the terms emotionally "dessicated"baffles
me. You're not supposed to empathize with Kane in seeing his last days as
anything we should more than pity. It is a tale of his failure as a human being
lacking a rich, fufilling emotional life. I think the film is at it's greatest,
however, in capturing an era in American life. The "March of Time" is not only
a marvelous plot device, but is an historical artifact, that forcasts the
coming of TV news and ironically the fading of print as the primary souce of
people's news.
Many of the innovations have been mentioned, and its great influence, but the
screenplay (probably by the two of them-with dialogue most likely Mankiewicz's)
is terrific-and of course it's a gimmick-but so artfully done. Whatever the
dispute about the screenplay-nothing can take any thing away from Welles' truly
original, bold, daring direction. And you can't separate Gregg Toland's
cinematography and composition( and the famous deep focus) from Welles' use of
it-and after all Welles' selected Toland (By the way he was also
cinematographer on Best Years, and tragically died at 44) And a great score by
B. Herrmann, no less, and that, and again, how it's used is no accident.
I know G/P Dave reacted to the use of "awsome" in describing the film, but I
remember a film critic callling it a film of "catacylsmic power". That will
really get you going.
As to other films, outside of Best Years (truly great film because it is a
human story within the context of a vision of post WWII American life) and
Stangelove-the other films, beloved and entertaining as they may be, shouldn't
be mentioned in the same breath. (OPera lovers should prefer Alistair Simm's
version of the Christmas Carol-anyway-it is operatic) I, too find some of the
film choices strange-a something significant is being missed. IMO the only
film outside of the two mentioned that is on Kane's level would be
Intolerance-despite some hokey Victorianisms-an amazing work.
I like Bob's reference to the fact, that not only does Kane have opera in it,
but it is an operatic film. Absolutely, with a great score, really a cinematic
Gesamtkuntswerk.
Let's try something here-I'll bet the opera people who love Citizen Kane are
more in the Wagnerian camp-those less enthusiastic about it, or hostile are
more moved by Verdi. or Italian opera-just a hunch
Best,
W99
james jorden
> Emotionally, "Citizen Kane" does not begin to convey the impact of "The Life
> of Emile Zola", "The Grapes of Wrath" [etc.]
I wonder, though, if CITIZEN KANE was meant to have a very strong emotional
appeal. The primary motivation of the creators of the film was, I think, to do a
technical exercise in montage and use of radio drama techniques in film. Welles in
particular always was a stylist more than a storyteller, and goodness knows he was
a cold actor. I believe it was Pauline Kael who said that KANE was in a sense a
"newspaper comedy" like THE FRONT PAGE, where everyone involved is disreputable and
unlikable.
We might also keep in mind that KANE is the story of an emotionally stunted man who
is really incapable of strong feeling. As such, the hard and brilliant style of
the film really matches well the content -- perhaps too well. A cold film about a
cold character (portrayed by a cold actor) really leaves everyone involved in need
of a sled.
james jorden
CITIZEN KANE: it's clever, brilliantly worked out, and endlessly discussable. But
I just don't like that opera very much.
planet...@uswest.net
wot...@aol.com (Wotan99) wrote:human being
> Let's try something here-I'll bet the opera people who love Citizen
Kane are
> more in the Wagnerian camp-those less enthusiastic about it, or
hostile are
> more moved by Verdi. or Italian opera-just a hunch
I have no idea if I represent any other Verdi freaks who find Wagner
mostly annoying, but I also rank Citizen Kane an enormously exciting
film. There are no real villians in it just as in the best of
humanistic Verdi. I also have to say I loathe It's a Wonderful Life
and The Best Years of Our Lives (if that's what you were referring to)
both as films and as scripts and for their points of view. Also as a
diehard Verdian, I'm equally enthralled by Scorsese, Coppola when he's
on track, de Sica, Ray, Ophuls, and Huston. As an Offenbach fan, I
also loved The Stuntman and Chinatown.
robert seigler
Let's try something here-I'll bet the opera people who love Citizen Kane
are more in the Wagnerian camp-those less enthusiastic about it, or
hostile are more moved by Verdi. or Italian opera-just a hunch
comment:
actually, i'd say welles was a verdi man. it's not by accident that his
three shakespeare films are exactly the three set by verdi, and were
created in the same order. CHIMES AT MIDNIGHT even takes it's cue from
boito's FALSTAFF by fashioning a single dramatic action from parts of
the several source plays.
like verdi, welles thought in terms of 'set pieces.' CITIZEN KANE shows
very clear breaks between these pieces, which in turn become parts of
his central metaphor, the jigsaw puzzle.
you also mention the slick 30's psychology as being a fault in the film,
but as i said in my original post, the revelation of 'rosebud' as a
symbolic answer to the puzzle is a mistake. it comes closer to being a
symbol in the jungian sense, which resonates in many directions at once.
yesterday was hitchcock's birthday, and he pulled this 'rosebud' gag to
perfection in MARNIE. that film ends with a psychiatrist actually
re-capping the plot in a freudian reading. if you know your jung
however, you might recognize the circular pull on the window shade as a
mandala, and the ocean liner parked on the street as a symbol of desire.
robert seigler
"So I grant that Citizen Kane had a greater impact on the history of
cinematic production than did Wuthering Heights or The Wizard of Oz
(also made in 1939).
But I just happen to gain more from Heathcliff's tribulations and
Dorothy's triumph than I do from the Hearst parable.
"So with the thumbscrew admonition, "...what one MUST [emphasis added]
do in both cases [viz, PARSIFAL and CITIZEN KANE] is admit the
importance these works have in the history of their art forms.." my
rejoinder is "feh".
comment:
i can't take exception to your personal taste, but i think you are
limiting your enjoyment of cinema by always clinging to the immediately
entertaining, rather than extending yourself to come to terms with
things that might be more difficult, but ultimately more rewarding. i
share your admiration for MARTHA, for example, but would either of us
use it as excuse for not liking TRISTAN?
but i do have a question for you. exactly how have you seen CITIZEN KANE
in the most practical sense? do you know it from video tape, laserdisc
or DVD, or from worn and rented 16mm prints? frankly, until you see it
projected on a large screen, in a pristine copy and with an audience,
your judgment is as bound to be flawed as would be your opinion of an
opera heard on a bad 'private' recording with an inferior cast. because
the visual element is central to this film's impact, the quality of the
image ought to be considered.
without resorting to the imperative, i really would like you to try the
film again some time. disconnect yourself from the content of the story,
but watch for the way the story is told. the fascinating thing about
this film is that it is always being re-made in the mind of the viewer.
it requires an intellectual involvement before you can discover it
buried emotions.
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Sat, 14 August 1999 12:17 AM EDT
>Message-id: <37B4EDE5...@bellsouth.net>
>
>We don't need no steenking badges
>a.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship.
==G/P "Arrest the usual suspects"
Ivrys88
>I like Bob's reference to the fact, that not only does Kane have opera in it,
>but it is an operatic film. Absolutely, with a great score, really a cinematic
>Gesamtkuntswerk.
I remember reading that Welles had deliberately patterned "Kane" after the
movements of a symphony: opening allegro, slow movement, scherzo, etc. Any
truth to this?
Ivrys88
>i share your admiration for MARTHA, for example, but would either of us
>use it as excuse for not liking TRISTAN?
some in this NG hold exactly that opinion.
Matthew B. Tepper
{Said whilst hanging off one of the sculpted portraits on Mount
Rushmore) They said I lead too dull a life.
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Sat, 14 August 1999 11:25 AM EDT
>Message-id: <7p41pn$9...@chronicle.concentric.net>
>
>In article <19990814044958...@ng-ba1.aol.com>,
>grndp...@aol.com pondered what I'm pondering as follows...
>>
>>>From: andre35 <and...@bellsouth.net>
>>>Date: Sat, 14 August 1999 12:17 AM EDT
>>>Message-id: <37B4EDE5...@bellsouth.net>
>>>
>>>We don't need no steenking badges
>>>a.
>>
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>This could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship.
>>
>>==G/P "Arrest the usual suspects"
>
>{Said whilst hanging off one of the sculpted portraits on Mount
>Rushmore) They said I lead too dull a life.
>
>--
Could you be one those Freudians who tend to cling to their long standing
fallacies?
-
==G/P "Go North by Northwest young man"
andre35
laugh......and cry.
A.
andre35
perceptive, and to my tastes.
Andre
Three cheers foe "Cliff Notes."
planet...@uswest.net wrote:
> In article <19990814002724...@ng-fg1.aol.com>,
> wot...@aol.com (Wotan99) wrote:human being
> > Let's try something here-I'll bet the opera people who love Citizen
> Kane are
> > more in the Wagnerian camp-those less enthusiastic about it, or
> hostile are
> > more moved by Verdi. or Italian opera-just a hunch
>
Tom Dooley
Cheers,
Dooley
robert seigler
I have no idea if I represent any other Verdi freaks who find Wagner
mostly annoying, but I also rank Citizen Kane an enormously exciting
film. There are no real villians in it just as in the best of humanistic
Verdi. I also have to say I loathe It's a Wonderful Life and The Best
Years of Our Lives (if that's what you were referring to) both as films
and as scripts and for their points of view. Also as a diehard Verdian,
I'm equally enthralled by Scorsese, Coppola when he's on track, de Sica,
Ray, Ophuls, and Huston. As an Offenbach fan, I also loved The Stuntman
and Chinatown.
comment:
my sentiments exactly, although you forgot to mention robert aldritch
for his version of MAGIC FLUTE - KISS ME DEADLY.
Tom Kaufman
>>use it as excuse for not liking TRISTAN?
>
>some in this NG hold exactly that opinion.
>
I don't need any excuse not to like Tristan. It's one great big bore (to me) of
an opera. But love Martha, and wish more of Flotow's works were available on
CD.
No cheers for Tristan
Tom Kaufman
URL of web site:
www.geocities.com/Vienna/8917/index.html
Tom Dooley
I love Orson Welles' work. I love "Citizen Kane." I love Verdi.
My thoughts of both can be explained in Jungian terms: Displaying
the shadow side, with a desire for integration, perhaps even salvation.
"Touch of Evil" is a deeper graphic example.
I'm not anti-Wagner. I would be interested to know if there is someone
out there who can stay awake for the full second act of Siegfried,
though.
My first post here.
Cheers,
Dooley
robert seigler wrote:
>
> wotan99 writes:
>
> Let's try something here-I'll bet the opera people who love Citizen Kane
> are more in the Wagnerian camp-those less enthusiastic about it, or
> hostile are more moved by Verdi. or Italian opera-just a hunch
>
> comment:
>
> actually, i'd say welles was a verdi man. it's not by accident that his
> three shakespeare films are exactly the three set by verdi, and were
> created in the same order. CHIMES AT MIDNIGHT even takes it's cue from
> boito's FALSTAFF by fashioning a single dramatic action from parts of
> the several source plays.
>
> like verdi, welles thought in terms of 'set pieces.' CITIZEN KANE shows
> very clear breaks between these pieces, which in turn become parts of
> his central metaphor, the jigsaw puzzle.
>
> you also mention the slick 30's psychology as being a fault in the film,
> but as i said in my original post, the revelation of 'rosebud' as a
> symbolic answer to the puzzle is a mistake. it comes closer to being a
> symbol in the jungian sense, which resonates in many directions at once.
>
> yesterday was hitchcock's birthday, and he pulled this 'rosebud' gag to
> perfection in MARNIE. that film ends with a psychiatrist actually
> re-capping the plot in a freudian reading. if you know your jung
> however, you might recognize the circular pull on the window shade as a
> mandala, and the ocean liner parked on the street as a symbol of desire.
>
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Sat, 14 August 1999 02:04 PM EDT
>Message-id: <37B5AF9F...@pacific.net>
>
>Wonderful insights. Iconoclast here, maybe my vote is not worthy:
>I love Orson Welles' work. I love "Citizen Kane." I love Verdi.
>
>My thoughts of both can be explained in Jungian terms: Displaying
>the shadow side, with a desire for integration, perhaps even salvation.
>"Touch of Evil" is a deeper graphic example.
>
>I'm not anti-Wagner. I would be interested to know if there is someone
>out there who can stay awake for the full second act of Siegfried,
>though.
>
>My first post here.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Dooley
Well come right in, the water's warm and so is the company. You don't have to
be anti-Verdi to love Citizen Kane. I'll bet there are even Puccini fanciers
who love Citizen Kane. And, G-d forbid, there may even exist opera haters who
love Citizen Kane.
-
Just ignore the classifiers -- always trying to pigeonhole ideas like mail
clerks sorting envelopes.
-
As for remaining concscious during the entirety of SIEGFRIED Act II, consider
that Act II of SIEGFRIED may be the only intentionally humorous part of DER
RING.
-
First you get the Dragon. Mime and Alberich have their little face-off. Then
Siegfried comes along. You get the wonderfully evocative Forest Murmurs.
Siegfried fashions a hollow reed and tries to imitate the sound of a Woodbird.
He gets frustrated and abandons the reed for his horn. His efforts awaken the
Dragon. Siegfried fights the Dragon. Siegfried wins. But the Dragon's blood
burns his arms. Siegfried licks the blood and now can understand the song of
the bird. The bird will lead him to a sleeping maiden.
-
Nothing soporiphic in this. You want boring? Just try Act I of PARSIFAL or the
X-Files darkness of Act II of LOHENGRIN or David explaining the rules of
Tablatur to Walther in Act I of MEISTERSINGER.
-
As a Frenchman once observed, Wagner has his "grand moments" but also his
"mauvais quarts d'heures."
-
Your first excellent post deserves another. Just be careful not to rile the
famous "Gang of Four". (They lurk in the cave once occupied by Fafner hurling
flaming breaths upon any who dare to look kindly upon their bête noire).
-
Have a Great Saturday and a Peaceful Sunday,
:-) G/P Dave
Ancona21
"I am but mad north-northwest; when the wind is southerly, I know a hawk from
a handsaw."
Ancona21
Nemo me impune lacessit
Tom Kaufman
>
>I have no idea if I represent any other Verdi freaks who find Wagner
>mostly annoying,
I don't know if I would use the word annoying to describe Wagner--in that it at
least has a connotation of a certain amount of interest--sort of like an
admission that there is something there, even if in a negative sense.
The word I would use is bbbooooorrrrriiiiinnnnnggggggg
especially for almost all of Tristan, much of Meistersinger (there is
supposedly a terrific march in Act III, where he copied the idea from the great
Meyerbeer (but I never got that far in the opera), Parsifal, and most of
Siegfried.
I do find some redeeming qualities in the earlier operas--especially
Tannhauser, Lohengrin, Fliegender Hollaender, and Rienzi. However Wagner's
tendency to be long winded, and to feel that if a little of something is good,
then a lot more of it is better, does show in these works as well. He just
seems to go on and on.
Of course, I do recognize that these are merely my opinions, and that there are
many people who disagree completely. I guess I just don't get Wagner, while
other opera lovers do.
Don Tomasso di belcantomania
Somehow, Die Walkuere strikes me as atypical Wagner. It is an exciting,
vibrant, wonderful work with a great love duet
Matthew B. Tepper
>
>I love Orson Welles' work. I love "Citizen Kane." I love Verdi.
>
>My thoughts of both can be explained in Jungian terms: Displaying
>the shadow side, with a desire for integration, perhaps even salvation.
>"Touch of Evil" is a deeper graphic example.
Also it contains probably the most prophetic words ever spoken to Welles
in a movie (by Dietrich): "Honey, you a mess."
>I'm not anti-Wagner. I would be interested to know if there is someone
>out there who can stay awake for the full second act of Siegfried,
>though.
Didn't Siegfried himself sleep in the forest for several years while
Wagner busied himself with _Tristan und Isolde_ and _Die Meistersinger_?
>My first post here.
Duly noted. (I know, after that one I should hang down my head.)
>Cheers,
>
>Dooley
>
>
>
>robert seigler wrote:
>>
>> wotan99 writes:
>>
>> Let's try something here-I'll bet the opera people who love Citizen
>> Kane are more in the Wagnerian camp-those less enthusiastic about it,
>> or hostile are more moved by Verdi. or Italian opera-just a hunch
>>
>> comment:
>>
>> actually, i'd say welles was a verdi man. it's not by accident that
>> his three shakespeare films are exactly the three set by verdi, and
>> were created in the same order. CHIMES AT MIDNIGHT even takes its cue
>> from boito's FALSTAFF by fashioning a single dramatic action from
>> parts of the several source plays.
>>
>> like verdi, welles thought in terms of 'set pieces.' CITIZEN KANE
>> shows very clear breaks between these pieces, which in turn become
>> parts of his central metaphor, the jigsaw puzzle.
>>
>> you also mention the slick 30's psychology as being a fault in the
>> film, but as i said in my original post, the revelation of 'rosebud'
>> as a symbolic answer to the puzzle is a mistake. it comes closer to
>> being a symbol in the jungian sense, which resonates in many
>> directions at once.
>>
>> yesterday was hitchcock's birthday, and he pulled this 'rosebud' gag
>> to perfection in MARNIE. that film ends with a psychiatrist actually
>> re-capping the plot in a freudian reading. if you know your jung
>> however, you might recognize the circular pull on the window shade as
>> a mandala, and the ocean liner parked on the street as a symbol of
>> desire.
>>
>> bob
>>
>> "Denn wie man sich bettet, so liegt man.
>> Es deckt einen da keiner zu."
>> Brecht
--
Wotan99
>
>actually, i'd say welles was a verdi man. it's not by accident that his
>three shakespeare films are exactly the three set by verdi, and were
>created in the same order. CHIMES AT MIDNIGHT even takes it's cue from
>boito's FALSTAFF by fashioning a single dramatic action from parts of
>the several source plays.
Interesting, but about as speculative as my Wagner/Kane lovers hunch. I didn't
intend to imply that there is a strict correspondence between Kane and
Wagnerian music dramas....what I was aiming at was a similarity of
sensibility-big themes, seriousness of purpose-but still there is the use of
symbols as you pt. out, and a film style that uses the total package of film
technique-resulting in a density of style that to me is more Wagnerian.
>evelation of 'rosebud' as a
>symbolic answer to the puzzle is a mistake. it comes closer to being a
>symbol in the jungian sense, which resonates in many directions at once.
Certainly rosebud is a symbol, but I would tend not to look at it as a symbol
in the Jungian sense-it's too limited, and doesn't have the universal resonance
that the archtypal symbols do, such as surprise, we find in Wagner
>yesterday was hitchcock's birthday, and he pulled this 'rosebud' gag to
Yes, I heard a tribute to Hitchcock yesterday, and it was pointed out that
Pauline Kael thought little of Hitchcock, and thought him (was it) a charlatan!
To me, even if you don't like the suspense genre, or Hitchcock's psychological
insights, and dour view of humanity, you can find the sheer technical mastery
of craft-"awesome"
I noticed that our Verdian's choice of directors were not the one's that I
would put in the totally unproved Wagnerian/Welles camp-I would think
immediately of Eisenstein, Kurosawa, Kubrick.
W99
robert seigler
"Wonderful insights. Iconoclast here, maybe my vote is not worthy: I
love Orson Welles' work. I love "Citizen Kane." I love Verdi.
My thoughts of both can be explained in Jungian terms: Displaying the
shadow side, with a desire for integration, perhaps even salvation.
"Touch of Evil" is a deeper graphic example.
I'm not anti-Wagner. I would be interested to know if there is someone
out there who can stay awake for the full second act of Siegfried,
though."
comment:
thanks for the compliment, but maybe we are polarizing the wrong
composers. the opposite of wagner is not verdi, but mozart.
bergam slyly makes this point in his MAGIC FLUTE. he shows us the
singers backstage during the intermission, and we catch a glimpse of
sarastro studying the score of PARSIFAL.
these two operas are essentially identical in mythical content, dealing
with a brave if foolish young man sent on a quest either with a phallic
talisman, or as such a symbol as the object of his quest. but where
mozart is able to create a world of magic filled with people who are not
afraid of laughter, wagner conjures up a fictional nowhere where every
utterance is delivered as if the fate of the world hung in each
syllable. mozart delivers his message by entertaining us for two and a
half hours, while wagner arrives at the same conclusion only after
making us suffer five hours of tedium.
as to your last question, the 2nd act of SIEGFRIED is the only part of
the ring i like. the forest bird has the best tune in the show, and the
dragon is the most likeable character. the whole thing was done better,
however, in THE INCREDIBLE SHRINKING MAN.
robert seigler
The word I would use is bbbooooorrrrriiiiinnnnnggggggg especially for
almost all of Tristan, much of Meistersinger (there is supposedly a
terrific march in Act III, where he copied the idea from the great
Meyerbeer (but I never got that far in the opera), Parsifal, and most of
Siegfried.
comment:
having just posted by opinion of the tedium of PARSIFAL, i can't say i'm
exactly a wagnerian, but a point to be made here is that wagner requires
a commitment of time and imagination to be appreciated. i find TRISTAN
finally rewarding when i bother to expend that much energy, while
PARSIFAL sets my mind wandering after the first ten minutes.
perhaps that is the rationale for beyreuth. by setting his private opera
house a bit out of the way, wagner made attendance a sort of pilgrimage.
he must have figured anyone dumb enough to travel hundreds of miles to
hear PARSIFAL would not have the sense to walk out when his interest
flagged.
robert seigler
"actually, i'd say welles was a verdi man. it's not by accident that his
three shakespeare films are exactly the three set by verdi, and were
created in the same order. CHIMES AT MIDNIGHT even takes it's cue from
boito's FALSTAFF by fashioning a single dramatic action from parts of
the several source plays."
wotan99 replied:
"Interesting, but about as speculative as my Wagner/Kane lovers hunch. I
didn't intend to imply that there is a strict correspondence between
Kane and Wagnerian music dramas....what I was aiming at was a similarity
of sensibility-big themes, seriousness of purpose-but still there is the
use of symbols as you pt. out, and a film style that uses the total
package of film technique-resulting in a density of style that to me is
more Wagnerian."
comment:
i would say the biggest correspondence between wagner and a number of
great film directors, including welles, is the use of leitmotiven in
visual form. my favorite example of this occurs in von stroheim's GREED.
when trina and mcteague go on their first date, a sudden shower sends
them to take shelter in a shed. as they share their first kiss, we see
between them an advertisement for 'pluto water.' later, on their wedding
night, we see a bottle of 'pluto water' on the bedside stand. the
repetition of this image not only recalls the moment of their first
love, but predicts the outcome of the relationship. 'pluto water' is a
laxative, and pluto is the lord of hades.
when i wrote:
'[r]evelation of 'rosebud' as a
symbolic answer to the puzzle is a mistake. it comes closer to being a
symbol in the jungian sense, which resonates in many directions at
once."
wotan99 replies:
"Certainly rosebud is a symbol, but I would tend not to look at it as a
symbol in the Jungian sense-it's too limited, and doesn't have the
universal resonance that the archtypal symbols do, such as surprise, we
find in Wagner
reply:
the jungian reading of 'rosebud' might be regarded as a symbol of
potential growth, and recalls the admonition to 'gather ye rosebuds
while ye may.' part of kane's tragedy is that he constantly judges
himself as he is to what he might have been in other circumstances. 'i
might have been very great,' he says, 'if i had not been very rich.'
rosebud is a broad symbol of all the roads not taken.
when i continued:
"yesterday was hitchcock's birthday, and he pulled this 'rosebud' gag
to..."
wotan99 broke in to say:
Yes, I heard a tribute to Hitchcock yesterday, and it was pointed out
that Pauline Kael thought little of Hitchcock, and thought him (was it)
a charlatan! To me, even if you don't like the suspense genre, or
Hitchcock's psychological insights, and dour view of humanity, you can
find the sheer technical mastery of craft-"awesome"
I noticed that our Verdian's choice of directors were not the one's that
I would put in the totally unproved Wagnerian/Welles camp-I would think
immediately of Eisenstein, Kurosawa, Kubrick.
W99
comment:
eisenstein and kurosawa are certainly 'operatic' directors, and
eisenstein actually staged some wagner operas- but the over-riding
influence in IVAN THE TERRIBLE and ALEXANDER NEVSKY must be the
tradition of russian opera, especially BORIS. kurosawa seems to me
another shakespeare-verdi man. he made his MACBETH in THRONE OF BLOOD
and managed to complete his KING LEAR with RAN.
kubrick i find less 'operatic,' even with his reliance on visual music.
at any rate, the obvious source for 2001, with its apemen civilized
through the monolith, is THE MAGIC FLUTE. mozart was also a great
inspiration for hitchcock. THE BIRDS shows what happens without
papageno.
planet...@uswest.net
ivr...@aol.com (Ivrys88) wrote:
> robert seigler wrote:
>
> >i share your admiration for MARTHA, for example, but would either of
us
> >use it as excuse for not liking TRISTAN?
>
> some in this NG hold exactly that opinion.
Uh, actually, those of us who don't care for much for Tristan need no
more excuse than its music and libretto, which, unless I'm missing
something, have nothing to do at all with Marta, last time I looked at
any rate.
Mark D. Lew
babsd...@webtv.net (robert seigler) wrote:
> the jungian reading of 'rosebud' might be regarded as a symbol of
> potential growth, and recalls the admonition to 'gather ye rosebuds
> while ye may.' [...]
I've never seen Citizen Kane, and I know virtually nothing about it.
Regarding Herrick's verse, however, I've always read "gather ye rosebuds
while ye may" and the rest of the poem as a lyrical way of advising young
men "get laid early and often". Being a person with a fondness for
botanical metaphors, I naturally assumed that "rosebuds" (as well as the
"flower that smiles") were supposed to represent female genitalia.
Whether such an interpretation makes sense for Citizen Kane, I have no idea....
mdl
--
To the Virgins, to Make Much of Time
Gather ye rosebuds while ye may,
Old Time is still a-flying;
And this same flower that smiles to-day,
To-morrow will be dying.
The glorious lamp of heaven, the sun,
The higher he's a-getting,
The sooner will his race be run,
And nearer he's to setting.
That age is best which is the first,
When youth and blood are warmer;
But being spent, the worse and worst
Times still succeed the former.
Then be not coy, but use your time,
And while ye may, go marry;
For, having lost but once your prime,
You may forever tarry.
-- Robert Herrick (1591-1674)
Edward A. Cowan
> You want boring? Just try Act I of PARSIFAL or the
> X-Files darkness of Act II of LOHENGRIN or David explaining the rules of
> Tablatur to Walther in Act I of MEISTERSINGER.
When you have Hans Hotter as Gurnemanz, Act 1 of _Parsifal_ can be
enthralling, especially if you understand German. (I do. It's my second
language.) The Ortrud-Telramund scene in _Lohengrin_, Act 2, is just
plain corny, but the ceremonial material later on is really grand opera.
As for the scene of David's explaining the rules of Tabulature to
Walther in _Die Meistersinger_, Act 1, I have found that I can do
without it in performance. Indeed, back in the 1960s, the Met brought
that opera to Dallas and proceeded to perform the work with that entire
scene cut (by Rosenstock, who was conducting), making hash of
Magdalene's statement to Walther that David would tell him all about the
rules. So poor Walther (Konya in this performance) had to wing it on his
own. In recordings, however, I want this scene included, even though I
might omit it when listening to the recording. Only the recording with
Anton Dermota as David (VPO/Knappertsbusch) makes that scene
interesting, so distinguished is Dermota's work there. Of the two
recordings from Bayreuth, 1943, the Furtwängler omits it because that
tape has not, apparently, survived (and neither has the tape with the
Quintet!). But the opera survives uncut in the Abendroth recording from
the same series.
-- E.A.C.
Edward A. Cowan
> The word I would use is bbbooooorrrrriiiiinnnnnggggggg
> especially for almost all of Tristan, much of Meistersinger (there is
> supposedly a terrific march in Act III, where he copied the
idea from the great
> Meyerbeer (but I never got that far in the opera), Parsifal, and most of
> Siegfried.
<sigh> That means you've missed the part in _Meistersinger_, Act 3,
where Wagner quotes "Di tanti palpiti" from Rossini's _Tancredi_...
-- E.A.C.
Edward A. Cowan
> i find TRISTAN
> finally rewarding when i bother to expend that much energy, while
> PARSIFAL sets my mind wandering after the first ten minutes.
>
> perhaps that is the rationale for beyreuth. by setting his private opera
> house a bit out of the way, wagner made attendance a sort of pilgrimage.
> he must have figured anyone dumb enough to travel hundreds of miles to
> hear PARSIFAL would not have the sense to walk out when his interest
> flagged.
Wagner took care of that little matter, too: At Bayreuth, there are no
aisles though which one can exit during the music! Wagner's idea of
theatre was something akin to church...
-- E.A.C.
Wotan99
>
>Whether such an interpretation makes sense for Citizen Kane, I have no
>idea....
>
>mdl
>
Rosebud, indeed, an intimate name used by WR Hearst for his mistress Marion
Davies?
Have I imagined that, or did i read it somewhere?
W99
Wotan99
(by Jerry Tambling) which I'm sure no one ever heard of?? It is a bit like a
published doctoral dissertation out of the recent (and unmourned)
deconstructionist academic era, full of PC ideology and the concomitant
references to methods derived from Lacan, Metz, Derrida, and Barthes-the usual
suspects. But it has its interesting pts. and is one of the few books I've
encountered on film and opera.
It has a bit on Kane filling in the background of the fictional Salammbo. It
has another pt:" Susan was conceived of as being a cross section of the Amer.
public, and her wish to sing-he is seen practicing Una voce poco fa with the
standard Italian teacher-is perhaps an interesting commentary on the myth of
the opera in the American mind." (we see another example of that in how opera
is endlessly used inTV commercials) The bk goes on to say that: "The 'Met' is
Xanadu....the place where a Rosebud-like innocence can be regained, if
anywhere, and so the object of limitless desire. In the pursuit of this desire,
reactionary, as has been seen, the actual details of opera must be excluded;all
that remains is the tune and voice."
In another reference to "Salammbo"(it's use in the film), Flaubert, and the
"East" E Said's bk. "Orientalism" is mentioned. The author of this bk Tambling
says:" for Said's interest in showing how the East has been constituted a
subject for knowledge-which is also control-through nineteenth and twentieth
century projections of it, of its woman and its sexual incon tinence, of its
irrationaltiy-means that it becomes a mythological subject to be projected in
a number of cultural ways, of which grand opera, and opera spectaculars, are
fine representatives."
I told you it was ideological-and this sentence shows why it never really made
a big splash.
W99
Wotan99
W99
Terrymelin
>Rosebud, indeed, an intimate name used by WR Hearst for his mistress Marion
>Davies?
A rumour. Not true. The only two who knew wouldn't, obviously, confirm it.
Probably just another false legend.
Terry Ellsworth
John Yohalem
>Last night my wife and I tried to watch this hallowed movie -- the subject
of
>W99's exegesis.
>-
>After 10 minutes I was sleeping and my wife, who likes the film, said that
>watching it just as a movie and not as a textbook on film history was no
longer
>possible for her.
>-
>The things we are told we HAVE to like eventually turn into things we don't
>like.
>-
>It makes me think of Dale Bumpers' wonderful speech when he said, "When
they
>say it isn't about money......it's about money." Substitute "boring" for
>"about money" and you have my take on this cinema classic.
I first saw Citizen Kane when I'd never heard of Cahiers du Cinema, indeed
had never heard about the trick ending. I watched it just as a movie.
It was terrific. I loved it. I appreciated every preposterous touch.
Today I still enjoy it thoroughly for its "technique", but alas I know the
secret of the ending too well....
If you can't enjoy this movie, you pay far too much attention to what you're
"supposed" to like, and you revolt because you feel intellectually inferior.
Hey, it's no disgrace to be intellectually inferior.
It's not even a disgrace that you fall asleep when one of the most ENJOYABLE
movies of all time is on TV, and to hell with Lacan.
I liked Fidelio and Don Giovanni before I knew you were supposed to, too.
Wagner and Strauss took work, study of the scores, many exposures and some
LSD, but the breakthrough was entirely worth it.
When you go to these things, scrub your ears clean of what the critics say
and of what happened since. Try to appreciate them as they were intended
when they were new. The surprises are constant.
Hans Lich
John Yohalem
ench...@herodotus.com
"Opera depends on the happy fiction that feeling can be sustained over
impossibly long stretches of time." -- Joseph Kerman
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Sun, 15 August 1999 02:02 PM EDT
>Message-id: <19990815140212...@ng-bh1.aol.com>
Last night my wife and I tried to watch this hallowed movie -- the subject of
W99's exegesis.
-
After 10 minutes I was sleeping and my wife, who likes the film, said that
watching it just as a movie and not as a textbook on film history was no longer
possible for her.
-
The things we are told we HAVE to like eventually turn into things we don't
like.
-
It makes me think of Dale Bumpers' wonderful speech when he said, "When they
say it isn't about money......it's about money." Substitute "boring" for
"about money" and you have my take on this cinema classic.
==G/P..arsifal
Capa081348
>From: wot...@aol.com (Wotan99)
>Let's try something here-I'll bet the opera people who love Citizen Kane are
more in the Wagnerian camp-those less enthusiastic about it, or hostile are
more moved by Verdi. or Italian opera-just a hunch
>
>Best,
>W99
Hello, Wanderer
Certainly not true in my case. I am an ardent (though not erudite) Wagnerian
and I guess I am in the "camp" of those who would desribe Citizen Kane as a
very important film, but one which does not stir my soul.
I think my original remarks, which I'll repeat below, express my great RESPECT
for CK as an influential, and technically masterful film, but one which doesn't
move me.
"I think it is unquestionably one of the most important films from a
cinematographic point of view. I am not a student of film techniques,
and take much of motion picture wizardry somewhat for granted. But any
number of people have told me that Welles' (a very young man, then) use of
unusual camera angles, lighting etc. was a remarkable tour de force for that
time, and an enormous influence on other ilm-makers around the world.
"But I would agree with Dave that in terms of the elements that cause us
non-professionals to rhapsodize about great films, (plot, character
development, acting, dialogue) the film is good, but hardly head and
shoulders above many of the other fine films of the 1930's and 40's.
"Emotionally, "Citizen Kane" does not begin to convey the impact of "The Life
of Emile Zola", "The Grapes of Wrath", "Mrs. Miniver", "Casablanca", "The Best
Years of Our Lives" and "Treasure of Sierra
Madre", just to name a few of its great contemporaries."
The greatest works of art have both great intellectual stimulation and profound
emotional impact. And the two are by no means incompatible -- cf Sophocles,
Michelangelo, Shakespeare, Cervantes and Beethoven. To name just a few.
Citizen Kane might be the most "important" film of the century, whatever that
means -- as I wrote earlier it is a technical chef d'oeuvre. But l would agree
with Mr Jorden's words on Falstaff:
"it's clever, brilliantly worked out, and endlessly discussable. But I just
don't like that opera very much."
Respect, yes. Love no. I suppose there are many that would argue Joyce is a
greater writer than Steinbeck. He is unquestionably the more technically
ambitious of the two, and probably the more influential. But for me there is
more of the human essence in the diner scene in the "Grapes of Wrath" (the
novel) than in the whole of "Ulysses".
Because of his genius for the music of words, we think of Shakespeare, for
example, as a "literary" genius. But some of his most profound effects are
accomplished with the greatest economy of means:
For example can you guess what the following fifteen famous Shakespearean
passages have in common?
A horse, a horse! My kingdom for a horse!
Lord, what fools these mortals be!
By heaven methinks it were an easy leap, To pluck bright honour from the
pale-faced moon!
A man can die but once; we owe God a death.
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers:
For he today that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile.
When he shall die,
Take him and cut him out in little stars.
And he will make the face of heaven so fine
That all the world will be in love with night,
And pay no worship to the garish sun.
All the world's a stage, and the men and women merely players.
If music be the food of love, play on.
If you prick us, do we not bleed? if you tickle us do we not laugh? if you
poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?
To be, or not to be; that is the question.
There is a tide in the affairs of men,
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune.
Nor set down ought in malice: then must you speak
Of one that loved not wisely, but too well.
Out, out, brief candle.
Life's but a walking shadow; A poor player, Who struts and frets his hour upon
the stage
And then is heard no more:
Why should a dog, a horse, a rat, have life,
And thou no breath at all? Thou'lt come no more.
Never,never, never, never, never!
O' what a brave new world, that has such people in it!
Do you see what they have in common?
There is not a three-syllable word to be found in any of those famous passages.
And in most, not too many two-syllable words.
My point here is that technical wizardry is not enough to reach the topmost
peaks of art -- although it *is* important, and well worth study. But once
technique ceases to be the maidservant of the expression of the human
condition, and becomes the predominant impulse (as with Schonberg, Joyce,
Welles, and Jackson Pollock) I think the artist is putting the cart before the
horse.
That's not to say that they haven't given us a fascinating cart; but without
the horse of human drama to pull it, that cart won't move us too far along the
road of greater human understanding.
Best Regards,
Pat Finley
Der Reine Tor
LuciaMim
Date: Sun, 15 August 1999 10:07 PM EDT
Message-id: <19990815220754...@ng-cc1.aol.com>
Hi, Pat!
Thanks for an excellent post (as usual)!!
Best wishes,
Mimi (who just printed it out)
></PRE></HTML>
Wotan99
>W99's exegesis.
Dave, that was not my exegesis, I just thought some would find the points
raised in the Film ideology book interesting or amusing, as the case may be
>After 10 minutes I was sleeping and my wife, who likes the film, said that
>watching it just as a movie and not as a textbook on film history was no
>longer
>possible for her.
Well I can't comment on why you were sleeping-perhaps a bit of undigested
cheese?
>The things we are told we HAVE to like eventually turn into things we don't
>like.
>-
>It makes me think of Dale Bumpers' wonderful speech when he said, "When they
>say it isn't about money......it's about money." Substitute "boring" for
>"about money" and you have my take on this cinema classic.
>==G/P..arsifal
I have the reverse take-most of the things that were held in highest esteem by
respectable "experts" (told I should understand) I've usually discovered are
great. The fault is usually my own, and as the veil is lifted I see the riches.
Why for example I find Parsifal to be a short opera, and yet the older I get
find, e.g. early Verdi only bearable if I'm reading a book at the same time.
We've been through this before-but being bored, or fear of, seems to be a
concern of yours.
But we're all different, and that fact we coincide on some things is good
enough.
W99
Wotan99
From: "John Yohalem"
>
>I first saw Citizen Kane when I'd never heard of Cahiers du Cinema, indeed
>had never heard about the trick ending. I watched it just as a movie.
>
>It was terrific. I loved it. I appreciated every preposterous touch.
>
>Today I still enjoy it thoroughly for its "technique", but alas I know the
>secret of the ending too well....
>
>If you can't enjoy this movie, you pay far too much attention to what you're
>"supposed" to like, and you revolt because you feel intellectually inferior.
>Hey, it's no disgrace to be intellectually inferior.
>
>It's not even a disgrace that you fall asleep when one of the most ENJOYABLE
>movies of all time is on TV, and to hell with Lacan.
>
There is much I can relate to in this posting.
When I was young (before videos) I had a book on great films-and, of course,
there was Kane, with a full page photo of the political rally scene. I dreamed
about it, and as time went on read a lot about it, but it was just one of those
things that i didn't get to see it until well into college-and the first time
I did was in a theater. I knew lots about it, but what was so wonderful, was
that it was great intriguing entertainment, and beyond everything else, story
telling. As I said, every few years when i see it again, it never disappoints
or fails to draw me in.
I never thought of it as a "trick ending". I always thought it was such a
delicious example of artifice in all its aspects that it was all part of the
contrivance. But this reference that others have made to the lack of emotion in
the film, that it is without any human elements they can relate to, as I said
baffles me. Must emotion always be worn on the sleeve-everything is not mid
nineteenth century Italian opera.
>I liked Fidelio and Don Giovanni before I knew you were supposed to, too.
Yes, that's true with lots of works for me-but I trusted my instincts, and
later filled in the spaces.
>Wagner and Strauss took work, study of the scores, many exposures and some
>LSD, but the breakthrough was entirely worth it.
Yes, my progression was from the Italian, and French wing, into Wagner etc. I
understand about your breakthrough-even though for some of the same reaons I
don't always remember when it happened.
My approach is to study, learn, absorb, and then experience, opera
particularly, as the theater of the unconscious-it's amazing how the mind has
its own way of working the conscious material in.
But just to show I'm not totally in agreement-I remain convinced of Handel's
influence on Mozart
Best,
W99
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Sun, 15 August 1999 10:42 PM EDT
>Message-id: <7p7uik$2...@news-central.tiac.net>
>
snip / snip
>
>If you can't enjoy this movie, you pay far too much attention to what you're
>"supposed" to like, and you revolt because you feel intellectually inferior.
>Hey, it's no disgrace to be intellectually inferior.
>
>It's not even a disgrace that you fall asleep when one of the most ENJOYABLE
>movies of all time is on TV, and to hell with Lacan.
>
snip / snip
>
>Hans Lich
>
=====================
Dear Hans,
Thank you for granting me absolution for my intellectual inferiority.
It is encouraging that you find this movie "the most ENJOYABLE". May you ever
find it thus.
Who, by the way, is Lacan?
All the best,
==G/P Dave
Mark D. Lew
capa0...@aol.com (Capa081348) wrote:
> There is not a three-syllable word to be found in any of those famous
passages.
> And in most, not too many two-syllable words.
Marvelous observation!
Another who learned well from the Bard is Elizabeth Barrett Browning:
> How do I love thee? Let me count the ways.
> I love thee to the depth and breadth and height
> My soul can reach, when feeling out of sight
> For the ends of Being and ideal Grace.
> I love thee to the level of everyday's
> Most quiet need, by sun and candle-light.
> I love thee freely, as men strive for Right;
> I love thee purely, as they turn from Praise.
> I love thee with the passion put to use
> In my old griefs, and with my childhood's faith.
> I love thee with a love I seemed to lose
> With my lost saints--I love thee with the breath,
> Smiles, tears, of all my life!--and, if God choose,
> I shall but love thee better after death.
Three-syllable words: two.
Two-syllable words: eleven.
One-syllable words: a hundred and thirteen.
Remarkable.
mdl
robert seigler
I've never seen Citizen Kane, and I know virtually nothing about it.
Regarding Herrick's verse, however, I've always read "gather ye rosebuds
while ye may" and the rest of the poem as a lyrical way of advising
young men "get laid early and often". Being a person with a fondness for
botanical metaphors, I naturally assumed that "rosebuds" (as well as the
"flower that smiles") were supposed to represent female genitalia.
Whether such an interpretation makes sense for Citizen Kane, I have no
idea....
comment:
the reason we skirt the issue of telling you more about 'rosebud' is
exactly not to spoil the surprise element it provides the first time you
see the film. without giving it away, i think i can tell you this:
the film opens with strange, somber music, and through a series of
dissolves, ends up on a close up of a giant pair of lips. the lips utter
one word: 'rosebud." we then see one of those snow globe ornaments fall
out of a man's hand and crash on the floor. in the shards of the broken
glass you can see a nurse rush into the room.
this gothic scene is then immediately interrupted by a newsreel. the
newsreel tells the essential biography of charles foster kane,
millionaire media mogul. the film runs out of the projector, and we find
ourselves in a screening room, where the filmmakers are trying to figure
out a way to make the story more interesting. someone mentions that
kane's last word was 'rosebud.' what did it mean? a reporter is sent out
to interview kane's associates, to see if any of them know the meaning.
the rest of the film shows the reporter on his quest, and his witnesses
re-tell kane's biography from their own perspective. but none of them
can identify 'rosebud.' the reporter concludes it is just one of many
missing pieces of a jigsaw puzzle, and as he walks out, the eerie music
of the film's opening moments return. the camera moves in on workmen
throwing junk into a furnace. the camera moves closer, and we see an
object marked with the word 'rosebud' go up in flames. we watch the word
burn away into nothingness.
the most direct meaning of the symbol refers to a traumatic moment in
kane's childhood, dealing with his mother's desires and his seperation
from his father. my point is that it has many more meanings, which is
what makes the film so truly poetiic.
as to your reading of herrick's poem, i think you also have to
understand 'rosebud' as female genitalia AND a lot of other things. how
about CARPE DIEM. make the most of youth, because it passes too quickly.
robert seigler
"The greatest works of art have both great intellectual stimulation and
profound emotional impact. And the two are by no means incompatible --
cf Sophocles, Michelangelo, Shakespeare, Cervantes and Beethoven. To
name just a few."
comment:
yes, pat, but my enthusiasm for CITIZEN KANE as a 'favorite' film is
based on finding it so shakespearean. i think it has a deep emotional
content, although it may take some repeated viewings to reach.
the technical virtuousity of the piece may at first be as daunting as
elizabethan english. the whole 'to be or not to be' speech in HAMLET,
for example, has whole lines which modern readers required glossed to be
understood. but once you get the basic sense of the language, the
'feeling' behind it becomes extremely profound.
the technical innovations in KANE are likewise a different, more
difficult language that that of the great films of 1939. welles deserves
credit for creating that language, but we misunderstand him until we can
begin to take that language for granted. the same thing may apply to
wagner. an effort of will at the outset reaps great rewards.
the first time i saw KANE, that final moment of watching 'rosebud' burn
sent shivers down my spine. even now, knowing the secret, i find it an
incredibly moving moment. for me, it solved no mystery, but only raised
deeper questions. it sent me back to see the film again and again, and
to get more meaning from it every time.
no work of art pleases everyone, and nobody is required to like
shakespeare, wagner or welles. but somehow i feel the world might be
better, if everyone could appreciate them.
Ancona21
cheese? >>
Or underdone potato, Ebeneezer? More likely the creamed corn and milk toast
G/P had for dinner. Moreover, people our age really shouldn't stay up past
9:00 p.m.
Ancona21
Nemo me impune lacessit
james jorden
> Or underdone potato, Ebeneezer? More likely the creamed corn and milk toast
> G/P had for dinner. Moreover, people our age really shouldn't stay up past
> 9:00 p.m.
Now, now. How about we say that G/P is just not CITIZEN KANE's audience, and
let it go at that? He seems to have a reasonable appreciation otherwise for
films of that era, with perhaps a noticeable taste for the sentimental over the
clever. And he did try: he was at least open-minded enough to pop the video in
for a second view. I say, G/P and KANE are just not meant for each other; we
can leave it at that.
--
james jorden
jjo...@ix.netcom.com
http://www.parterre.com
"I'm a great believer in vulgarity. All we need is a splash of bad taste. NO
taste is what I'm against."
--- Diana Vreeland
planet...@uswest.net
babsd...@webtv.net (robert seigler) wrote:
> the reason we skirt the issue of telling you more about 'rosebud' is
> exactly not to spoil the surprise element it provides the first time
you
> see the film. without giving it away, i think i can tell you this:
>
> the film opens with strange, somber music, and through a series of
> dissolves, ends up on a close up of a giant pair of lips. the lips
utter
> one word: 'rosebud." we then see one of those snow globe ornaments
fall
> out of a man's hand and crash on the floor. in the shards of the
broken
> glass you can see a nurse rush into the room.
A flaw in the film and script that was never corrected: How could it
be reported that rosebud was the last word on Kane's lips when there
was no one in the room to hear it? (The nurse enters too late. Not
that this matters all that much to me, but it's interesting both Welles
and Mankeweisz let this pass.)
planet...@uswest.net
"John Yohalem" <ench...@herodotus.com> wrote:
> If you can't enjoy this movie, > Hey, it's no disgrace to be
intellectually inferior.
But it's no great honor either. As turned on as I get by Citizen Kane,
I don't think it's any great intellectual shakes or gives me, loving
it, any claim to being superior--it's great good entertainment told by
a couple of virtuosi, and I think it could be said to be about as
intellectual as a great roller-coaster ride, with about the same effect
for those of us who respond. The virtuosity may make claims to kinds
of genius, but I don't believe the overall piece does.
> Wagner and Strauss took work, study of the scores, many exposures and
some
> LSD, but the breakthrough was entirely worth it.
LOL! So THAT's what it takes for a breakthrough to Strauss and Wagner.
Well, the difficulty of finding acid these days outweighs my interest
in having a breakthrough re Wagner and Strauss. Nor do I think any
drug is necessary to respond to Citizen Kane--for some of us, it has
almost a drug effect with no gnarly aftereffects. Certainly a lot more
immediate FUN than Wagner.
You're either excited by it or you aren't, just as you either respond
to the movies Grandpa Dave loves or you don't, and G'pa Dave and I will
simply agree to disagree.
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Mon, 16 August 1999 11:29 AM EDT
>Message-id: <37B82E6E...@ix.netcom.com>
>
>
>Now, now. How about we say that G/P is just not CITIZEN KANE's audience, and
>let it go at that? He seems to have a reasonable appreciation otherwise for
>films of that era, with perhaps a noticeable taste for the sentimental over
>the
>clever. And he did try: he was at least open-minded enough to pop the video
>in
>for a second view. I say, G/P and KANE are just not meant for each other; we
>can leave it at that.
>
>--
>james jorden
>jjo...@ix.netcom.com
>http://www.parterre.com
===============================
Funny thing, JJ, I find films like "La Grande Illusion" rivetting. But actors
like Jean Gabin, Pierre Frenay and Erich von Stroheim surpass, in my view, the
Mercury Theater players.
-
Nothing terribly sentimental about that film -- and I just love the scene where
the french POWs put on a show for their German jailers while whispering about
the news of Fort Douaumont.
-
But I thank you for your kind expression of tolerance.
-
Terrymelin
>be reported that rosebud was the last word on Kane's lips when there
>was no one in the room to hear it? (The nurse enters too late. Not
>th
It's not a flaw or an error. It was intended that way. It's part of mystery!!!
Terry Ellsworth
Cramnella
>be reported that rosebud was the last word on Kane's lips when there
>was no one in the room to hear it?
I'm not entirely certain, but I believe that Kane's valet (the last man
interviewed in the story) heard Kane's last word.
Marc Allen
james jorden
Cramnella wrote:
> I'm not entirely certain, but I believe that Kane's valet (the last man
> interviewed in the story) heard Kane's last word.
The butler says he heard Kane say "Rosebud" on the day Susan walked out on
him (Kane mutters the word when he sees the paperweight on Susan's dressing
table.)
As for the nurse in the first scene, it does look like a lapse in
continuity, but perhaps there was another nurse on duty or perhaps a doctor
in the room. It seems unlikely that a seriously ill Kane would be left
unattended.
--
james jorden
jjo...@ix.netcom.com
http://www.parterre.com
"I'm a great believer in vulgarity. All we need is a splash of bad taste.
Matthew B. Tepper
pondered what I'm pondering as follows...
>
>In article <7019-37...@newsd-122.bryant.webtv.net>,
> babsd...@webtv.net (robert seigler) wrote:
>
>> the reason we skirt the issue of telling you more about 'rosebud' is
>> exactly not to spoil the surprise element it provides the first time
>> you see the film. without giving it away, i think i can tell you
>> this:
>>
>> the film opens with strange, somber music, and through a series of
>> dissolves, ends up on a close up of a giant pair of lips. the lips
>> utter one word: 'rosebud." we then see one of those snow globe
>> ornaments fall out of a man's hand and crash on the floor. in the
>> shards of the broken glass you can see a nurse rush into the room.
>
>be reported that rosebud was the last word on Kane's lips when there
>and Mankeweisz let this pass.)
Maybe, with all that money to throw around, Kane had been able to get
some smart inventor to come up with a fancy-pants intercom system, the
sort of thing we would now call a "baby monitor." Sure, it would work
on vacuum tubes ("valves" to those of you who speak British English),
but could not there have been a microphone to pick up his last word?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/index.htm
My main music page --- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/berlioz.htm
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
"Compassionate Conservatism?" * "Tight Slacks?" * "Jumbo Shrimp?"
Capa081348
>Date: Mon, 16 August 1999 09:28 AM EDT
>Message-id: <7016-37B...@newsd-122.bryant.webtv.net>
>
>pat finley writes:
>
>"The greatest works of art have both great intellectual stimulation and
profound emotional impact. And the two are by no means incompatible -- cf
Sophocles, Michelangelo, Shakespeare, Cervantes and Beethoven. To name just a
few."
>
>comment:
>
>yes, pat, but my enthusiasm for CITIZEN KANE as a 'favorite' film is
>based on finding it so shakespearean. i think it has a deep emotional
>content, although it may take some repeated viewings to reach.
>
Pat: Well, I will keep trying. It took me a long time to get into Wagner, and
especially Strauss. But Wagner's music, even apart from the meaning or
meanings of his operas, is at once so primal, and so sophisticated (in the
original sense of that word), that the many hours I spent trying to get his
motifs into my very unmusical head
were hours that flew by. Strauss is also difficult; he seems to me sometimes
to wrap up a tiny, but glittering gem of melody in a supremely complicated
orchestral package. It takes a while to untie the ribbons and remove the
paper, to get at the jewel, but the jewel is usually worth the trouble. And
eventually many of us come to love the packaging too.
I heard a wonderful Strauss song that I did not know on the radio on the way
home from work tonight. Those who think that all there is to Strauss is the
"degeneracy" of Salome and Elektra, should turn to his songs.
>the technical virtuousity of the piece may at first be as daunting as
elizabethan english. the whole 'to be or not to be' speech in HAMLET, for
example, has whole lines which modern readers required glossed to be
understood. but once you get the basic sense of the language, the
'feeling' behind it becomes extremely profound.
Pat: It's a shame that people are so intimidated by Shakespeare. I have just
re-read (for maybe the 100th time) the "To be, or not to be" speech, and I
think there are only a couple of words whose meaning would be difficult to
guess without footnotes:
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear, ...
(quietus = death; a bodkin was a type of dagger; fardels are burdens)
the only other word in the whole speech that is difficult is "the proud man's
contumely" (contemptuousness) -- but the context gives one a good hint at the
meaning.
The difference for me, between Citizen Kane, and the great works of Sophocles,
Shakespeare, Cervantes, and Dickens is that I care, desperately, about Oedipus
and Antigone, Lear and Cordelia, Don Quixote and Sancho Panza, and Joe Gargery,
Tom Pinch, and Agnes Wickfield. I care about Rick and Ilse and Victor Laszlo.
I care about Mrs Miniver. I care about Emile Zola and Albert Dreyfuss. I care
about the characters in "The Good Earth". I care about the returning soldiers,
and their families, in "The Best Years of Our Lives". But I just don't care
very much about Charles Foster Kane.
I can empathize more with Macbeth than with Kane. And the former's wife is a
lot more impressive. :-)
>the technical innovations in KANE are likewise a different, more difficult
language that that of the great films of 1939. welles deserves credit for
creating that language, but we misunderstand him until we can
begin to take that language for granted. the same thing may apply to wagner. an
effort of will at the outset reaps great rewards.
>
the first time i saw KANE, that final moment of watching 'rosebud' burn
sent shivers down my spine. even now, knowing the secret, i find it an
incredibly moving moment. for me, it solved no mystery, but only raised deeper
questions. it sent me back to see the film again and again, and to get more
meaning from it every time.
Pat: that is quite a testimonial. As I said, I'll keep trying. I've probably
seen it four or five times. I'm always impressed, but have yet to be moved.
>
>no work of art pleases everyone, and nobody is required to like
>shakespeare, wagner or welles. but somehow i feel the world might be
>better, if everyone could appreciate them.
>
Best Regards,
Wotan99
So you picked up on my reference. I inverted it, of course, because in XMas
Carol, the "undigested bit of beef...more of gravy than of grave" (love that
line) is offered by Scrooge as a source of his hallucinations. What I thought I
was humorously suggesting was that Dave's falling asleep had at its source not
the film at all.
Oh well
W99
robert seigler
In article <7019-37...@newsd-122.bryant.webtv.net>,
babsd...@webtv.net (robert seigler) wrote:
"the reason we skirt the issue of telling you more about 'rosebud' is
exactly not to spoil the surprise element it provides the first time you
see the film. without giving it away, i think i can tell you this:
the film opens with strange, somber music, and through a series of
dissolves, ends up on a close up of a giant pair of lips. the lips utter
one word: 'rosebud." we then see one of those snow globe ornaments fall
out of a man's hand and crash on the floor. in the shards of the broken
glass you can see a nurse rush into the room."
A flaw in the film and script that was never corrected: How could it be
reported that rosebud was the last word on Kane's lips when there was no
one in the room to hear it? (The nurse enters too late. Not that this
matters all that much to me, but it's interesting both Welles and
Mankeweisz let this pass.)
comment:
i think the answer is provided by bernstein in his interview. he says he
was with kane from the beginning right up to the end. he was in the room
when kane expired.
another 'secret' of rosebud is discovered when we learn welles had
originally planned on filming HEART OF DARKNESS. there too, the
anti-hero, mr. kurtz, dies with an unexplained phrase on this lips: "
the horror." when a film version of the novel finally appeared, as
APOCALYPSE NOW, the bald marlon brando kurtz is made to look like the
bald senior kane.
'mr. kurtz, he dead' was the motto of t.s. eliot's THE HOLLOW MEN" with
it's lines:
"this is the way the world ends,
this is the way the world ends,
this is the way the world ends,
not with a bang but a whimper."
the whimper is: rosebud, the horror.
planet...@uswest.net
james jorden <jjo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> As for the nurse in the first scene, it does look like a lapse in
> continuity, but perhaps there was another nurse on duty or perhaps a
doctor
> in the room.
I think if either Mankiewicz or Welles cared to be that meticulous, we
would at least hear a gasp from someone in the room and perhaps see a
hand picking up the dropped snowball.
> It seems unlikely that a seriously ill Kane would be left
> unattended.
An eminently sensible remark, but then neither Mankiewicz nor Welles
were noted for their eminent sense--wild talent, yes, but one often
precludes the other. What I get from reading about the writing and
making of Kane is that scrupulous attention to detail was far from the
point. I think it IS a flaw in the continuity, but can smile
indulgently here for some reason at something that would have me
snickering at a similar lapse by other hands.
planet...@uswest.net
babsd...@webtv.net (robert seigler) wrote:
> one in the room to hear it? (The nurse enters too late. Not that this
> matters all that much to me, but it's interesting both Welles and
> Mankeweisz let this pass.)
>
> comment:
>
> i think the answer is provided by bernstein in his interview. he says
he
> was with kane from the beginning right up to the end. he was in the
room
> when kane expired.
Bernstein was a hanger-on whose only light was that reflected on him by
his association with Kane, and I'm sure he would do anything to up the
voltage by exaggerating his importance to Kane to the newspaper
reporter. Mankewicz, a scoffingly cynical ex-newsman himself, gives us
no reason to believe Bernstein is doing anything but glorifying himself
here. If you believe he was in that bedroom when Kane died, I have an
over-the-top estate with a wonderfully outlandish name to sell you.
Mark D. Lew
babsd...@webtv.net (robert seigler) wrote:
> the reason we skirt the issue of telling you more about 'rosebud' is
> exactly not to spoil the surprise element it provides the first time you
> see the film. without giving it away, i think i can tell you this:
>
> ... snip
Thanks for the summary. I'm the antithesis of a cineast, so I'm not too
worried about having any surprises spoiled for me; there's a reasonably
good chance that I'll never see the film. The primary enlightenment I got
from your description was the realization that a certain scene from an
episode of "The Simpsons" that I've seen was obviously a Citizen Kane
parody, something I hadn't recognized before.
> , and we see an
> object marked with the word 'rosebud' go up in flames.
Come to think of it, I do recall reading somewhere what that object is. I
still don't know exactly how that fits into the "surprise" ending, but I
can sort of guess.
> as to your reading of herrick's poem, i think you also have to
> understand 'rosebud' as female genitalia AND a lot of other things. how
> about CARPE DIEM. make the most of youth, because it passes too quickly.
Yes yes, of course. I heard all that carpe diem stuff in high school and
it's a given. As you say, there are many levels of meaning, but I find the
carnal aspects of romantic poetry are what gives it its richness. Most
poetry criticism I read seems way too intellectual, and that turns me off.
(Well, except for Camille Paglia, who somehow manages to be intellectual
and smutty-minded at the same time, though she sometimes goes
overboard....)
Where (as I was taught in school) "To his coy mistress" serves the general
purpose of advocating a philosophy of "carpe diem", then it bores me.
Where, on the other hand, it serves the quite specific purpose of getting
someone into bed, then its abundance of wit and innuendo is is delightful.
Mark D "my vegetable love should grow" Lew