Who Was Is The Best Isolde?
Candide
production of Tristan and Isolde, in fact I was actually misty eyed and
goose-pimply during Liebestod. Wondering what other sopranos sang Isolde
either on recording or live and whom was the best?
Have Montserrat Caballe on CD and have heard that Birgit Nilssons'
performance was absolutely orgasmic. Did Gwyneth Jones or Eva Marton ever
make a recording of Tristan and Isolde?
--
Candide
Tout est pour le mieux dans le mielleur des mondes possibles
(Everything is for the best in the best of possible worlds)
Voltaire (1694-1778)
Dave Hurwitz
have no other basis for comparison. The winner, hands down, is Birgit
Nilsson, who recorded the role twice commercially, countless times
piratically, and who, by the time she made her studio/live version with Bohm
was in a vocal form that no other recorded Isoldes have matched.
--
David Hurwitz
Executive Editor
ClassicsToday.com
http://www.classicstoday.com
dhur...@classicstoday.com
Keybedder <keyb...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:19991130200417...@ng-cq1.aol.com...
> Candide wrote:
>
> >Wondering what other sopranos sang Isolde
> >either on recording or live and whom was the best?
>
anyone's
> list of the great Isoldes of the twentieth century. Others on the list
might
> include Frida Leider, Helen Traubel, and Marjorie Lawrence, and, reaching
> further back, Olive Fremstad, Lillian Nordica and Lilli Lehmann.
David Shengold
----------
In article <F7%04.239$C23....@typhoon2.gnilink.net>, "Candide"
<Some...@anywhere.com> wrote:
>While many also wondered how Ms.Caballe could have performed the role even
>on recording since ITO her voice was entirely unsuitable.
And yet sing it she did- I've seen a fairly scary video with her and the
late Richard Versalle in TRISTAN, in Spain or Catalonia in the mid-80's. She
looked like Baby Jane writ large, and although intermittent sounds were
impressive, she was musically sloppy and at times *way* out of her depth.
Recall that she also sang Sieglinde, Rosina in Barbiere, and the ERNANI
Elvira about the same time-- the scattershot stage before she started
singing early 19th century works so obscure that no one except perhaps Tom
Kaufman had any basis for comparison ( a path trod later by Miss
Ricciarelli).
>Dave Hurwitz <sce...@erols.com> wrote in message
>news:821t8k$e1a$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net...
>> The question really is: who was the best Isolde on records, since we
>really
>> have no other basis for comparison. The winner, hands down, is Birgit
>> Nilsson, who recorded the role twice commercially, countless times
>> piratically, and who, by the time she made her studio/live version with
>Bohm
>> was in a vocal form that no other recorded Isoldes have matched.
Mr. Hurwitz is one for certainties.
I agree that Nilsson's Isolde for Boehm is sublime ( as hers for Solti is
not) but there is still much to be garnered from the recorded souvenirs of
others who equal, challenge or surpass her at certain moments. Leider-- who
sounds to me like the best actress of them all-- Flagstad, Traubel and Moedl
(with Karajan).
-David Shengold
Jerel Zoltick
Flagstad....then Leider, Nilsson, Traubel
jerel
Vincent Lau <vinc...@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:38448BE2...@netvigator.com...
> Candide wrote:
>
> >
> > Have Montserrat Caballe on CD and have heard that Birgit Nilssons'
> > performance was absolutely orgasmic. Did Gwyneth Jones or Eva Marton
ever
> > make a recording of Tristan and Isolde?
> >
> > --
> > Candide
>
> Dame Gwyneth's Isolde is featured in an LD of the opera which captured a
> performance by the Deutsche Oper Berlin during their tour to Japan in
> 1993. It's on the Pioneer label.
>
> Vincent LAU
Peter
>
> The question really is: who was the best Isolde on records, since we really
> have no other basis for comparison. The winner, hands down, is Birgit
> Nilsson, who recorded the role twice commercially, countless times
> piratically, and who, by the time she made her studio/live version with Bohm
> was in a vocal form that no other recorded Isoldes have matched.
Do you truly believe that Birgit Nilsson was a better singer and had a
more beautiful voice than Kirsten Flagstad? If so, I would find that
very difficult to believe because Kirsten Flagstad had a much "warmer"
voice, and as far as technique is concerned she was certainly equal, if
not better.
Mike Richter
Candide wrote:
>
> Jane Eaglen gives a wonderful performance as Isolde in the MET's current
> production of Tristan and Isolde, in fact I was actually misty eyed and
> goose-pimply during Liebestod. Wondering what other sopranos sang Isolde
> either on recording or live and whom was the best?
Why, undoubtedly Malvina Schnorr von Carolsfeld - she was the composer's
choice, you know.
In short, the question is meaningless. To compare a recording of 1902
with a modern one is not as absurd as comparing a recording with a live
performance - but it's close. She who had the most forceful curse
probably came up short in the pathos of the Liebestod; she who had the
most powerful instrument was likely to be a less than credible Irish
princess.
U.s.w.
Mike
mric...@cpl.net
http://mrichter.simplenet.com
CD-R http://resource.simplenet.com
Keybedder
>Wondering what other sopranos sang Isolde
>either on recording or live and whom was the best?
Flagstad and Nilsson would probably rank at the top or near the top on anyone's
Candide
on their audiences. Spoke with many older opera buffs whom saw Ms. Nilsson
perform the role and all agreed without doubt that it was sheer bliss.
While many also wondered how Ms.Caballe could have performed the role even
on recording since ITO her voice was entirely unsuitable.
Thank you for your response,will try and find some of the recordings you
listed.
--
Candide
Tout est pour le mieux dans le mielleur des mondes possibles
(Everything is for the best in the best of possible worlds)
Voltaire (1694-1778)
Dave Hurwitz <sce...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:821t8k$e1a$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net...
> The question really is: who was the best Isolde on records, since we
really
> have no other basis for comparison. The winner, hands down, is Birgit
> Nilsson, who recorded the role twice commercially, countless times
> piratically, and who, by the time she made her studio/live version with
Bohm
> was in a vocal form that no other recorded Isoldes have matched.
> --
> David Hurwitz
> Executive Editor
> ClassicsToday.com
> http://www.classicstoday.com
> dhur...@classicstoday.com
> Keybedder <keyb...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
> news:19991130200417...@ng-cq1.aol.com...
Matthew B. Tepper
Some...@anywhere.com is reputed to have iterated as follows...
>
>Yes, you are correct but was curious as to the impression past Isoldes
>left on their audiences. Spoke with many older opera buffs whom saw Ms.
>Nilsson perform the role and all agreed without doubt that it was sheer
>bliss.
Even past her prime, in San Francisco in 1974, she was pretty darn
wonderful. (Too bad about Jess Thomas....)
Of all the recorded excerpts I've heard, though, the one who impresses me
the most is still Frida Leider.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
"Compassionate Conservatism?" * "Tight Slacks?" * "Jumbo Shrimp?"
Vincent Lau
Capa081348
>From: "Dave Hurwitz" sce...@erols.com
>Date: Tue, 30 November 1999 08:45 PM EST
>Message-id: <821t8k$e1a$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net>
>
>The question really is: who was the best Isolde on records, since we really
>have no other basis for comparison. The winner, hands down, is Birgit
>Nilsson, who recorded the role twice commercially, countless times
>piratically, and who, by the time she made her studio/live version with Bohm
>was in a vocal form that no other recorded Isoldes have matched.
>--
>David Hurwitz
-----------------------
Callas sang Isolde in Italian, early in her career, did she not?
Has anyone within the sound of my keyboard heard her in that role?
Seems to me that she would have been a ferocious Act I princess.
Best Regards,
Pat Finley
Or che mi conoscete
parlate voi. Deh parlate.
Chi siete? Vi piaccia dir?
Opvidfan
>While many also wondered how Ms.Caballe could have performed the role even
>on recording since ITO her voice was entirely unsuitable.
>
There is a video of the performace. As a voice it is not a disgrace. She
musters temperment for the first act, however there is more that is
idiocyncratic as to make this a mere curiousity, for lovers of Caballe this is
a source of pride. Our girl sings Wagner. But for lovers of Isolde it is a "Why
did she bother" much like the M Price recording that has some lovely moments.
Why undertake the Everest of soprano roles as a lark.
The expected moments are rendered in a lovely tone but she is a cuddly Isolde.
Isolde as a cupcake albeit fully frosted.
Ray
Opvidfan
These are the ones I know of:
W Meier, 95, Bayreuth, Intense, in voice
J Meier, 83, Bayreuth, Vulnerable, lovely work, under rated great artist
Behrens 81, Munich, Bernstein cond. Third act televised twice. The first is a
major train wreck, I have never seen a performer in so much visual agony
except poor Guleghina in the Andrea w/ Bonisolli, she sweats the Ganges!
Bernstein no help in maintaining an impossible tempi. Repeat much better. She
was sick.
Bjoner: 83, Tokyo caught a bit late, adequate, just!
Nilsson 73, Orange the BABE, the real goods
Nilsson 67, Osaka. Everything! Boulez, Windgassen and HERSELF at her peak. A
great document
Lindholm 85 Montreal, Caught too late for this exciting actress but limited
voice
Jones 84 Brussels Greatest first act, the curse and narrative sends chills.
Best of her voice.
Jones 85 Paris still in good voice without quite the transcendent focus of
Brussels
Jones 93 Tokyo Jones is Jones but not the voice of Brussels
Behrens 95 Munich, vocal decline but sincere. Knows what the role is about.
Can make you believe a lot of what she is doing.
Caballe 89 Madrid, Why really did she bother? For fans, she does some lovely
turns in the duet. Not her finest moment. But she is having a good time. The
friendliest most good natured Isolde on tape. Isolde as a cupcake.
pin...@my-deja.com
up in high esteem by so many, including myself.
Gabriel Bocanegra
---------------------
In article <3844CFF1...@cpl.net>,
Mike Richter <mric...@cpl.net> wrote:
> Why, undoubtedly Malvina Schnorr von Carolsfeld - she was the
composer's
> choice, you know.
>
> In short, the question is meaningless. To compare a recording of 1902
> with a modern one is not as absurd as comparing a recording with a
live
> performance - but it's close. She who had the most forceful curse
> probably came up short in the pathos of the Liebestod; she who had the
> most powerful instrument was likely to be a less than credible Irish
> princess.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Wj598
>make a recording of Tristan and Isolde?
>
>--
>Candide
>(Everything is for the best in the best of possible worlds)
>Voltaire (1694-1778)
>
far as I know she didn`t record Isolde.
Best..............wolf(j)
cjrg...@my-deja.com
"Jerel Zoltick" <je...@erols.com> wrote:
> Best Isolde...
> Flagstad....then Leider, Nilsson, Traubel
>
> jerel
>
> Vincent Lau <vinc...@netvigator.com> wrote in message
> news:38448BE2...@netvigator.com...
> >
> > >
> > > Have Montserrat Caballe on CD and have heard that Birgit Nilssons'
Marton
> ever
> > > make a recording of Tristan and Isolde?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Candide
> >
captured a
> > performance by the Deutsche Oper Berlin during their tour to Japan
in
> > 1993. It's on the Pioneer label.
> >
> > Vincent LAU
>
Martha Moedl maybe doesn't quite rank with Flagstad, Leider, Nilsson,
or Traubel, but she was also a first-rate Isolde. Her dark voice could
be hypnotic, sexy, and scary in the part, and the pairing of Ramon
Vinay and Moedl still has to be one of the best ever.
--
Chris Green
Terrymelin
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>Nilsson, who recorded the role twice commercially, countless times
>piratically, an
I can only think of one commercial Isolde with Birgit -- the Solti -- what was
the other one?
Terry Ellsworth
G Riggs
members of Max Lorenz's family are sitting on a recording of a Genoa
performance of Tristan from 1950 with Max Lorenz and Maria Callas as the
doomed lovers. This performance was sung in Italian.
Apparently, so goes the story, some record company was really interested in
marketing this document, but would only do so if they could headline it as
the "Callas Tristan". The Lorenz family were adamantly opposed to that,
insisting that Lorenz get equal billing with Callas. The tape has yet to be
released because of this disagreement, and we are all the losers.
G Riggs
--
==============================================
The Collector's Guide to Opera Recordings and Videos
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/7023
The Collector's Guide to Books on Opera
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/7023/reading.htm
==============================================
Capa081348 wrote in message
<19991130221034...@ng-cs1.aol.com>...
>>Subject: Re: Who Was Is The Best Isolde?
>>From: "Dave Hurwitz" sce...@erols.com
>>Date: Tue, 30 November 1999 08:45 PM EST
>>Message-id: <821t8k$e1a$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net>
>>
>>The question really is: who was the best Isolde on records, since we
really
>>have no other basis for comparison. The winner, hands down, is Birgit
>>Nilsson, who recorded the role twice commercially, countless times
TJNORT
in as good sound as her Vienna broadcasts of SIEGFRIED and GOTTERDAMMERUNG;
perhaps a better recording of this or of another recording of Grob-Prandl's
Isolde will turn up now that the Vienna State Opera/Austrian Radio and La Scala
sound archives are opening up).
Mike Richter
Opvidfan wrote:
> Jones 93 Tokyo Jones is Jones but not the voice of Brussels
You are much too kind, sir. There are moments when she is tolerable -
but that is more than I can say for Kollo, the production or even the
video direction. This is an unmitigated disaster - the worst Wagner
video I know (including the Montreal T&I with Decker).
Olaf
wrote:
>The question really is: who was the best Isolde on records, since we really
>have no other basis for comparison. The winner, hands down, is Birgit
>Nilsson, who recorded the role twice commercially, countless times
>piratically, and who, by the time she made her studio/live version with Bohm
>was in a vocal form that no other recorded Isoldes have matched.
Speaking of which, Birgit Nilsson first sang Isolde at the Met 40
years ago on December 18 (if I am not mistaken).
Olaf
jzydek
Oh, God, Birgit Nilsson is my hero!!! And I have precious few left at this
stage of the "game." She is just wonderful.
June
jzydek
Yes, Yes and Yes!
June
Terrymelin <terry...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991201112052...@ng-fd1.aol.com...
Joseph Dane
Wj598 wrote:
> >Did Gwyneth Jones or Eva Marton ever
> >make a recording of Tristan and Isolde?
> >
> >--
> >Candide
> >Tout est pour le mieux dans le mielleur des mondes possibles
> >(Everything is for the best in the best of possible worlds)
> >Voltaire (1694-1778)
> >
> Eva Marton will sing her first ISOLDE at Hamburg State Opera in May 2000. As
> far as I know she didn`t record Isolde.
>
> Best..............wolf(j)
Is this a Bad News/Good News joke?
JAD
MD
>
>
> IMO Birgit Nilsson (especially as Bruennhilde and Isolde) is one of the
> most overvalued singers in the world. she wasn't a true hochdramatisch
> soprano.
Excuse me???? What do you smoke????!!!
cho...@my-deja.com
Anita Valkki as Isolde in the 1960s.
IMO Birgit Nilsson (especially as Bruennhilde and Isolde) is one of the
most overvalued singers in the world. Her harsh voice was nothing but
volume, technique and stamina. She had a wonderful and long career - I
have an utmost respect for her. Besides, she is one of the funniest
divas in the world. But she wasn't a true hochdramatisch soprano. I
only care to listen to her as Elektra and Turandot. And yes I even saw
and heard her live on the concert stage.
Capa081348
>Date: Wed, 01 December 1999 01:34 PM EST
>Message-id: <823pn6$8...@journal.concentric.net>
>
>I've heard from a number of sources -- I can't say how reliable -- that
>members of Max Lorenz's family are sitting on a recording of a Genoa
>performance of Tristan from 1950 with Max Lorenz and Maria Callas as the
>doomed lovers. This performance was sung in Italian.
>
>Apparently, so goes the story, some record company was really interested in
>marketing this document, but would only do so if they could headline it as
>the "Callas Tristan". The Lorenz family were adamantly opposed to that,
>insisting that Lorenz get equal billing with Callas. The tape has yet to be
>released because of this disagreement, and we are all the losers.
>
>G Riggs
>
Isolde herself said it best:
O blinde Augen!
Blode Herzen!
Zahmer Muth,
Verzagtes Schweigen
Blind Eyes!
Foolish Heart!
Tamed Courage,
Futile Silence
G Riggs
<19991201112200...@ng-fd1.aol.com>...
>>The winner, hands down, is Birgit
>>Nilsson, who recorded the role twice commercially, countless times
>
>I can only think of one commercial Isolde with Birgit -- the Solti -- what
was
>the other one?
The other commercial Nilsson Tristan is the Bohm from Beyreuth in 1966,
whose conducting is preferable to Solti's (1961) IMO, and whose Tristan --
Windgassen, a dry-voiced but respectable partner -- is also preferable to
his counterpart, Uhl, on the Solti. For some the energy of Solti and the
fine sonics make this a special recording, but for most (myself included)
the Bohm is preferable, not just because of more pliable conducting but
because of a marginally more consistent cast and Nilsson's greater
connection to her role.
A bit of "truth in advertising" here: I have to admit, from the very first
time I heard the Solti recording in the 1960s, that I found it in many
ways -- and still do -- one of the most bitterly disappointing ever made.
Some may recall that in an ungallant mood, I once carried a one-sentence
precis of this set on the "Tristan" page of my website, stating simply that
is was excellent for use as a dart board. But one should be serious on
one's website ;-) (so the precis is now history).
Cheers,
G Riggs
--
==============================================
The Collector's Guide to Opera Recordings and Videos
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/7023
The Collector's Guide to Books on Opera
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/7023/reading.htm
Christmas shopping heaven!
==============================================
cho...@my-deja.com
MD <dal...@isomedia.com> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> > IMO Birgit Nilsson (especially as Bruennhilde and Isolde) is one of
the
hochdramatisch
> > soprano.
>
> Excuse me???? What do you smoke????!!!
Nobody would call Nilsson's timbre hochdramatisch. She was a spinto and
not a very pleasant one, either.
Wieland Wagner told her once that she should never sing Isolde or
Bruennhilde because they were too dramatic for her. Of course that was
in the early 1950s and unfortunately he allowed her to sing those roles
in his productions.
cho...@my-deja.com
cho...@my-deja.com
Wj598
>Date: Wed, 01 December 1999 02:53 PM EST
>Message-id: <19991201145302...@ng-xa1.aol.com>
Your post made me happy. Therefore now (while writing) I `m listening to
"Jauchzet frohlocket aufreisset die Tage".......
It`s Christmas time anyway to hear the Xmas Oratorio BUT in this case the only
reason that this wonderfull melody came imidiately in my "brain" has only to do
with that impression : THERE IS ANOTHER GERTRUDE FAN :.)
You are right with thebad quality of the De Sabata TRISTAN from Milano. My ears
got used to early recordings.
Maybe you are interested to hear that there is a Zauberflöte from Salzburg from
1949 with Gertrude as "Erste Dame" . The cast is the same like on the wellknown
Furtwaengler Salzburg recording from 51. But Walther Ludwig is Tamino, Karl
Schmitt-Walter is Papageno and of course Gertrude. Thomas Voigt a very
wellknown German critic said to (about?)her singing : G.G-P is a typical
excample that a very big voice can sing in TRIO IF she is as flexible as
Gertrudes voice.(on the label "Gebhardt")
I would like to mention her Donna Anna in a recording under Hans Swarowsky
(Preiser).Amittedely her voice and don Ottavios (Herbert Handt) are fitting
"weard/strange" togethermore like a carp and a hering :.)............but it`s
a very interesting combination and wonderfull singing of both(!) anyway.
Although G G-P is fourteen years older as Bruennhilde on the Walküre excerpts
under Berislav Klobucar her singing is still 1963 attractive. On that Myto
recital is also a stunning ELEKTRA with her (20 min)
Thank You again.
Hopefully some people will get curious after reading that there already TWO
people recommending Gertrude as one of the finest Isoldes.
Best..............wolf(j)
Wj598
>> far as I know she didn`t record Isolde.
>>
>> Best..............wolf(j)
>
> Is this a Bad News/Good News joke?
>
>JAD
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
I´m not a big fan of Marton. BUT as you know she still has a lot of fans like
every singer who maybe is not in the very best "shape" anymore (over the prime
time?) Araiza, Studer and other singers are good excamples which getting
discussed on this Board. Four people asked me about more details about the
Hamburg TRISTAN. I guess they are all Marton fans. Isn`t that wonderfull?
As I said already Marton wasn`t bad (for my taste) this year as Dyers wife and
Ortrud when I heard her.
Best................wolf(j)
Cthom244
Ivan Lalis
it I am bashed. So, no, I do not like it, it's terrible and I do not know why I
keep it in my CD collection.
Ivan
Terrymelin
That's a live not studio recording. I thought by commercial you meant studio. I
believe she only recorded it once -- Solti -- in the studio.
Terry Ellsworth
dtritter
cho...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > IMO Birgit Nilsson (especially as Bruennhilde and Isolde) is one of
> the> > > most overvalued singers in the world. she wasn't a true
> hochdramatisch> > > soprano.
> >
> > Excuse me???? What do you smoke????!!!
>
> Nobody would call Nilsson's timbre hochdramatisch. She was a spinto and
> not a very pleasant one, either.
>
> Wieland Wagner told her once that she should never sing Isolde or
> Bruennhilde because they were too dramatic for her. Of course that was
> in the early 1950s and unfortunately he allowed her to sing those roles
> in his productions.
let's take a vote, anybody who ever heard nilsson sing in an opera
house, any critic who ever wrote about her, any professional who ever
worked with her....was nilsson a true hochdramatische soprano?
the real shock would be whether this unique view of mr/mrs/miss choccmo
has a single supporter. perhaps he/she also believes in the tooth fairy.
and by the way, what is the source of that alleged wieland opinion?
anyone who actually heard it said? poor wieland, he just didn't know
anything and allowed her to sing the roles for which she became renowned
as one of the hochdramatische sopranos of the 20th century.
and, by the way, mr/mrs/miss choccmo, how many times did you hear
nilsson live in the opera house sing brunnhilde or isolde, enabling you
to make this singular assertion with such finality?
dft
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Derrick Everett
Cthom244 wrote in message <19991202025249...@ng-fo1.aol.com>...
>Does anyone know anything about the 1982 Kleiber Tristan with Margaret
Price?
If you are running out of ideas for original Xmas presents, this recording
can be made into a novelty ashtray.
I don't know what Kleiber was thinking of (or what drugs he might have been
taking?) when he conducted this strange interpretation of T&I. But I
understand that he subsequently went to court in an attempt to get it
suppressed, unfortunately without success.
Just my 2 cents.
Derrick
Thor Even Brenden
and her "Heil Dir Sonne" was a stunning moment for me. Her voice captured
me and held me through rest of Siegfried and the Götterdämmerung. I have a
copy of the 1951 Tristan but find it almost unbearable to listen to. Let us
Grob-Prandl friends pray that another Tristan in good sound will turn up.
Shortly I will recieve her Don Giovanni and Turandot from Venice 1953. I am
very excited to hear more of this wonderful singer.
Then we are three!!!!!
Thor
Wj598 <wj...@aol.com> skrev i artikkelen
<19991202022736...@ng-cm1.aol.com>...
> >Subject: Re: Who Was Is The Best Isolde?
> >From: tjn...@aol.com (TJNORT)
> >Date: Wed, 01 December 1999 02:53 PM EST
> >Message-id: <19991201145302...@ng-xa1.aol.com>
> >
> >Leider and Grob-Prandl (I wish Grob-Prandl's La Scala TRISTAN UND ISOLDE
were
> >in as good sound as her Vienna broadcasts of SIEGFRIED and
GOTTERDAMMERUNG;
> >perhaps a better recording of this or of another recording of
Grob-Prandl's
> >Isolde will turn up now that the Vienna State Opera/Austrian Radio and
La
> >Scala
> >sound archives are opening up).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> with that impression : THERE IS ANOTHER GERTRUDE FAN :.)
G Riggs
of the performance. Hence, the confusion. Yes, Nilsson only recorded
Isolde once in the studio. BTW, I feel that, in the case of Bruennhilde as
well, Nilsson's live Bayreuth release with Boehm finds her in stronger
command of the role than she is in the Decca/London studio with Solti, even
though, as an overall Ring cycle, I somewhat prefer the Solti to the Boehm.
Cordially,
Geoffrey Riggs
--
==============================================
The Collector's Guide to Opera Recordings and Videos
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The Collector's Guide to Books on Opera
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Terrymelin wrote in message
<19991202085505...@ng-bg1.aol.com>...
Mike Richter
controls and multiple components were integrated into the release. Each
component was recorded in the house.
It is not a studio recording, but neither can it be called live.
Mike
Terrymelin wrote:
>
> >The other commercial Nilsson Tristan is the Bohm from Beyreuth in 1966,
>
> That's a live not studio recording. I thought by commercial you meant studio. I
> believe she only recorded it once -- Solti -- in the studio.
>
> Terry Ellsworth
--
Wj598
>Does anyone know anything about the 1982 Kleiber Tristan with Margaret Price?
>
YES
KOLLO was/ is horrible. Therefore it was Kleibers try to German Grammophon to
allow him to find another tenor for a new recording
You know the answer. Orchestral/symphonic its one of the best Tristans. I know
only excerpts and liked the Liebestod with Price.
Best................wolf(j)
G Riggs
>
>
>cho...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> > > IMO Birgit Nilsson (especially as Bruennhilde and Isolde) is one of
>> the> > > most overvalued singers in the world. she wasn't a true
>> hochdramatisch> > > soprano.
>> >
>> > Excuse me???? What do you smoke????!!!
>>
>> Nobody would call Nilsson's timbre hochdramatisch. She was a spinto and
>> not a very pleasant one, either.
>>
>> Wieland Wagner told her once that she should never sing Isolde or
>> Bruennhilde because they were too dramatic for her. Of course that was
>> in the early 1950s and unfortunately he allowed her to sing those roles
>> in his productions.
>
>
>let's take a vote, anybody who ever heard nilsson sing in an opera
>house, any critic who ever wrote about her, any professional who ever
>worked with her....was nilsson a true hochdramatische soprano?
I realize I may be entering a hornet's nest <g> , but I'd hazard a guess
that "choccmo" is using timbre as a way of defining hochdramatisch, while
dtritter is using size. Actually, there is no disagreement between these
two posters as to size. In an earlier post, "choccmo" wrote:
"Her harsh voice was nothing but volume, technique and stamina."
So s/he concedes the voice's power.
Having heard Nilsson's Isolde in the house, I can attest to the voice's
freedom, its authentic amplitude and its resiliency. But I must sneakingly
admit that, in terms of timbre, there was a spinto quality to it. In this
respect, "choccmo" may have a point. I was and am more aware of a
disconcerting lightness to Nilsson's timbre in certain recordings than I was
when confronted by the overpowering brilliance of Nilsson's upper register
in the hall. In the hall, the dominant impression was that the brilliance
of Nilsson's top was inextricably linked to Nilsson's overall vocal heft.
But with all that heft, there is no question that Nilsson's vocal coloring
did not conform to the traditional expectations of a hochdramatisch voice.
There is a historic irony here. Nilsson's dominance of the hochdramatisch
rep through her untiring vocal stamina and genuine power led to her sound
becoming the "true sound" for these roles for an entire generation. For
this, Nilsson was hardly to blame. There was just nobody else around --
once she was firmly established, anyway -- who seemed ready either to a)
take the plunge or b) stay the course once the plunge was taken. Crespin,
Farrell, Varnay and Dernesch, all perfectly fine artists, certainly had
their innings, but they didn't seem to have the sheer luck, either with
impresarios or audiences (or their own personal choices), that Nilsson had
with these roles. One sometimes forgets that Varnay was the same age as
Nilsson, so, with all her Bayreuth triumphs, her relatively low profile once
Nilsson hit her stride was not inevitable and probably points to certain
technical problems that Varnay never quite overcame. (I think most would
agree that Varnay never had quite so good a voice as Nilsson.) Farrell only
sang Wagner in concert (a real tragedy), and Crespin and Dernesch could not
stay the course. There are one or two others in addition, but I think the
point is made.
Unfortunately, for well or for ill (and this was not Nilsson's fault),
expectations surrounding the hochdramatisch rep were significantly modified
in Nilsson's wake, once she started winding down her career. In a welter of
glib assumptions that the hochdramatisch voice "naturally(!)" should sound
just like Nilsson's voice, lambs were led to the slaughter who would
occasionally share, in certain ways, the general map of Nilsson's voice, but
never its power or ease. I've come to believe that Nilsson is an exception,
not the rule. The "map" of her voice, while on a grand scale, is relatively
ordinary in its lower reaches while attaining the extraordinary higher up.
In miniature form, Behrens roughly conformed to this pattern. Behrens's
Isolde was sorely taxed in its lower reaches during Act I, ugly even (and I
did hear her Isolde in the house), while capable of some real musical
delivery and poignancy in the higher scenes of Act II and Act III.
In fact, Nilsson, for me, could never quite communicate the melting beauties
of much of the Act II Love Duet the way Behrens occasionally could. I still
believe that Nilsson had better title to the role than Behrens, but I never
really thought, and here I -- partly -- agree with "choccmo", that Nilsson,
with all her power and ease, had the kind of sound one could really call
beautiful in the traditional sense. When one hears some of Isolde's more
soulful middle-register sequences sung by Leider, Flagstad or Traubel,
there's a whole dimension of lament, "klage" if you will, that I miss in
Nilsson. I miss it for two reasons: a) Nilsson's voice, IMO, is more
*striking* than truly "beautiful" and b) it has a center of gravity
significantly higher than any of her greatest predecessors. Her middle and
low notes simply cannot be characterized (and granted, this is an over-used
word) as "warm." They give the impression of somehow lacking "space"
(though clearly there was no problem with their being heard in the hall). A
Flagstad or a Traubel, on the other hand, have an enveloping quality in
their vocal coloring throughout that is, at the same time, both
intrinsically beautiful in a traditional sense, IMO, and also unmistakably
hochdramatisch in timbre. Nilsson does not have this. For this reason, it
is understandable for some listeners to describe Nilsson's sheer *timbre* as
spinto, albeit a spinto probably writ larger than any spinto (and even a few
hochdramatischen!) yet heard.
I recognize that beauty is in the eye of the beholder (behearer????), but I
sometimes wonder how future generations, deprived of the opportunity to hear
Nilsson in the house, will assess her recorded contribution once sheer power
in a "live" setting is no longer a factor.
Edward A. Cowan
> Nilsson's dominance of the hochdramatisch
> rep through her untiring vocal stamina and genuine power led to her sound
> becoming the "true sound" for these roles for an entire generation. For
> this, Nilsson was hardly to blame. There was just nobody else around --
> once she was firmly established, anyway -- who seemed ready either to a)
> take the plunge or b) stay the course once the plunge was taken.
I did hear Birgit Nilsson three times in opera (_Die Walküre_,
_Elektra_, and _Turandot_) and several more times in concert. The
Nilsson voice, which recordings always make to seem *smaller* than it
actually was, resembled, when heard live, a first class audio system at
open throttle. The sound was indescribably (and irreproduceably)
enormous. This, coupled with her really astonishing upper register, made
Nilsson a phenomenal singer, a sort of turbo-soprano. <g> I'll never
forget the last time I heard her in recital in Denton TX some time in
the late 1970s. She sang with piano accompaniment in an auditorium that
resembled a high school assembly hall, with wooden seats and a wooden
floor. The voice in "Suicidio!" (_La Gioconda_) made the floor shake!
-- E.A.C.
cjrg...@my-deja.com
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > IMO Birgit Nilsson (especially as Bruennhilde and Isolde) is one
of
> the
> > > most overvalued singers in the world. she wasn't a true
> hochdramatisch
> > > soprano.
> >
> > Excuse me???? What do you smoke????!!!
>
> Nobody would call Nilsson's timbre hochdramatisch. She was a spinto
and
> not a very pleasant one, either.
>
> Wieland Wagner told her once that she should never sing Isolde or
> Bruennhilde because they were too dramatic for her. Of course that was
> in the early 1950s and unfortunately he allowed her to sing those
roles
> in his productions.
>
> Before you buy.
If you do not find Nilsson effective in hochdramatisch roles, may I ask
what singers you do prefer, and why you consider them superior.
As for the Wieland Wagner statement, I find that remarkable and would
be most interested in knowing what source you have for it.
--
Chris Green
cho...@my-deja.com
cho...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Nobody would call Nilsson's timbre hochdramatisch. She was a spinto
and
> not a very pleasant one, either.
>
> Wieland Wagner told her once that she should never sing Isolde or
> Bruennhilde because they were too dramatic for her. Of course that was
> in the early 1950s and unfortunately he allowed her to sing those
roles
> in his productions.
I won't reply to flamers. But thank you for the wonderful analysis,
Geoffrey Riggs! I basically agree with everything you wrote.
The Wieland Wagner quote is from Birgit Nilsson's autobiography, "La
Nilsson". I'm sure Nilsson would be the first one to admit that she
didn't have a true hochdramatisch timbre. That wouldn't be right for
the real hochdramatische sopranos, like Kirsten Flagstad, Frida Leider,
Helena Traubel, Anita Valkki or Astrid Varnay. I cannot imagine Nilsson
singing mezzo roles, there's always only a fine line between mezzo-
sopranos and hochdramatische sopranos. Actually I don't mind Nilsson
singing these roles, but I always prefer the warmth and exciting lower
and middle register of a true hochdramatisch timbre. Of the three
Bruennhildes, the Siegfried one suited best for Nilsson.
MD
all the artists would be fresh. I laugh when people say how well Windgassen sounds
in Act 3 of the recording, because that's all he had to sing on that particular
session. While I believe there is an invited audience, they are as quiet as mice.
So this was not actually a "live" performance, but a recording session with invited
guests.
MD
MD
times to the newsgroup, but to say Nilsson of all people was not a
hoch-dramatisch soprano is just sheer stupidity on your part. You may not
like her voice, but get your facts straight for heaven's sake.
cho...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <3845FB91...@isomedia.com>,
> MD <dal...@isomedia.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > IMO Birgit Nilsson (especially as Bruennhilde and Isolde) is one of
> the
> > > most overvalued singers in the world. she wasn't a true
> hochdramatisch
> > > soprano.
> >
> > Excuse me???? What do you smoke????!!!
>
> Nobody would call Nilsson's timbre hochdramatisch. She was a spinto and
> not a very pleasant one, either.
>
> Wieland Wagner told her once that she should never sing Isolde or
> Bruennhilde because they were too dramatic for her. Of course that was
> in the early 1950s and unfortunately he allowed her to sing those roles
> in his productions.
>
JJ
>Technically it's a studio recording. The opera was recorded one Act at a time,
> so
>all the artists would be fresh. I laugh when people say how well Windgassen
> sounds
>in Act 3 of the recording, because that's all he had to sing on that particular
>session. While I believe there is an invited audience, they are as quiet as
> mice.
>So this was not actually a "live" performance, but a recording session with
> invited
>guests.
>
>MD
Well, I have a recording with the same cast on Frequenz which is a single,
live performance taken from that run (August 13, 1966), and Windgassen *does*
sound superb in Act 3. So I don't think that his strength there is just due
to the extended recording sessions. He could actually string with remarkable
sustained power in 1966, and the commerical version is thus a fair
representation of his work.
jjo...@my-deja.com
jj
Nancy Davies
good fortune to have heard Ms. Eaglen yet, I
must not contribute on that score-but I have
heard her broadcasts of other roles-and she
is fabuloso..........My personal fave? Kirsten
Flagstad in her prime-WOW.
MD
> didn't have a true hochdramatisch timbre. That wouldn't be right for
> the real hochdramatische sopranos, like Kirsten Flagstad, Frida Leider,
> Helena Traubel, Anita Valkki or Astrid Varnay.
Flagstad barely could sing top B-flat, even in her heyday without strain,
and had to lunge at the B naturals and C's. Traubel's voice basically
stopped at A natural.
Yet you call them REAL hochdramatisch sopranos??! Do you even know what the
word "hoch" means?????
Nilsson sang lyric Wagner roles through the mid-50's when Wieland Wagner
made his comment. She then naturally and rightfully sang hochdramatisch
roles from then on, eclipsing all of the ladies you mention, with the
exception of Flagstad who was a magnificent singer in every way, save ease
in the extreme upper register. That Nilsson could be referred to as a
spinto is laughable, and shows a startling ignorance about vocal fachs.
Steber and Price were spintos, and yet the original poster puts the huge
Nilsson voice in that category?? The idea that Nilsson was masquerading for
30 years as a "true" hochdramatisch and that we simply had to put up with it
because there wasn't anyone else is ludicrous. The ultimate roles in that
fach are the Siegfried Bruenhnilde, Fidelio, Elektra, Salome and Turandot.
Nilsson sang them better than anyone alive or dead for 3 decades. Gosh,
it's such a shame we had to suffer her for so long......
jzydek
MD: LOL! Great post. I am in total agreement with you on this.
June
MD <dal...@isomedia.com> wrote in message
news:3849F35A...@isomedia.com...
Derrick Everett
cjrg...@my-deja.com wrote in message <827vqn$p6t$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <82637q$cic$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> cho...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> In article <3845FB91...@isomedia.com>,
>> MD <dal...@isomedia.com> wrote:
>>
>> Nobody would call Nilsson's timbre hochdramatisch. She was a spinto
>> and not a very pleasant one, either.
>>
>> Wieland Wagner told her once that she should never sing Isolde or
>> Bruennhilde because they were too dramatic for her. Of course that was
>> in the early 1950s and unfortunately he allowed her to sing those
>> roles in his productions.
>
>what singers you do prefer, and why you consider them superior.
>
>As for the Wieland Wagner statement, I find that remarkable and would
>be most interested in knowing what source you have for it.
>
Since the original poster has not provided you with an answer, I take the
liberty of quoting Wieland's remark in its context.
After a long correspondence with the Bayreuth Festival, Birgit Nilsson was
engaged to sing in Beethoven's Ninth Symphony at the opening of the 1953
Festival. (The performance was to have been conducted by Furtwängler but
owing to the latters indisposition was conducted by Paul Hindemith).
According to her autobiography ("La Nilsson", Stockholm 1995, page 202), she
had been engaged without an audition; but since she was in Bayreuth anyway,
Nilsson agreed to give an audition to the Wagner brothers.
"I sang arias and scenes from Valkyrie, Lohengrin and Tannhäuser.
Afterwards Wieland invited me into his office. And then: he fell on his
knees before me! I a most confused state, like a hallucination, I thought
to myself, '... here you have Richard Wagner's grandson, the great
producer-genius on his knees before you. Don't ever tell anyone, because
they won't believe you'.
Through the hallucination, I heard him say: 'Frau Nilsson, what do you want
to sing? Just say and the role is yours.' Later he said that I was a
second Maria Müller, '...she was a wonderful jugendlichsopran, just like
you are. Promise me only, that you will never sing Isolde or Brünnhilde,
because they are entirely too dramatic for you'."
(translated from the Swedish on-the-fly and without permission).
Derrick
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: Sun, 05 December 1999 10:46 AM EST
>Message-id: <82e1fv$32qk$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>
>
>
>MD: LOL! Great post. I am in total agreement with you on this.
>
>June
>
Would it have been a great post if you had not been in total agreement with the
author?
==G/P Dave
Cfehlandt
>and had to lunge at the B naturals and C's. Traubel's voice basically
>stopped at A natural.
>Yet you call them REAL hochdramatisch sopranos??! Do you even know what the
>word "hoch" means?????
Do you know what the word "hoch" means here? It doesn't mean "high" as in
"altitude." It's "high" as in "high drama," i.e. intense. As for your first
claim, Flagstad, in my opinion, betrays no strain whatsoever on Bs and Bbs on
her 1935 recordings or in the taped live performances I've heard. Even her 1948
version of Isolde's Curse shgows gleaming, albeit not necessarily effortless,
Bs. And have you ever heard Traubel's "Divinite du Styx?"
Carl F.
jzydek
Well, not to me, anyways!
June
GRNDPADAVE <grndp...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991205124958...@ng-ck1.aol.com...
Tag Gallagher
MD wrote:
> Flagstad barely could sing top B-flat, even in her heyday without strain,
> and had to lunge at the B naturals and C's.
There's nothing barely or lunging about her C's at the end of the Rhine Journey
in the 1937 Furtwangler Gotterdammerung. You'd think she'd lived high C her
whole life long.
cjrg...@my-deja.com
Many thanks.
Not having read the passage in question in a larger context, I'm not
entirely sure how to interpret WW's statement. It doesn't appear to be
a flat statement that Nilsson had no business singing hochdramatisch
roles. Would it be fair to say that WW was so pleased by the
"jugendlich" quality of Nilsson's voice that he thought she was simply
perfectly suited to that Fach? Or that he feared she might damage her
voice by extending herself into roles that might have been unsuitable,
as too many other sopranos have done?
--
Chris Green
Papageno
The best Isolde is Flagstad and the best Tristan is Melchior so the best
Recording is a live recording with this 2 genius ! with poor sound ... but the
studio recording with Flagstad and Furtwangler is the best studio recording
...the other are juste for one conductor and rarely for one singer !
Shahrdad
and purity with which she took all the B's and C's. It was only in her
fifties that she lost this facility.
S.
Tag Gallagher <t...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:384B4D3D...@sprynet.com...
cjrg...@my-deja.com
If you had taken care to read the posts you are replying to, you would
have known that your reply is not responsive and should have been
threaded elsewhere.
As for your assertions, I disagree. I find Frida Leider to be the
better Isolde and Melchior/Leider the best pairing of which we have
recorded material (unfortunately, only in fragments). Of the more-or-
less complete recordings available, I agree that Melchior/Flagstad is
unbeatable; yet, of uncut recordings, the first (Vinay/Moedl, Karajan
conducting) is still the best. But that's only my opinion.
David Shengold
According to Kolodin (p. 429):
"Meanwhile Flagstad moved through another long season that began with a
second-night Bruennhilde in DIE WALKUERE on December4 [1940] and did not end
till a TRISTAN on April 12 [1941]. As in two previous seasons, she did not
tax herself to sing the top C's as Isolde or the SIEGFRIED Bruennhilde."
-DLS
----------
In article <cEN24.65$Xq5.1...@typhoon.stlnet.com>, "Shahrdad"
Derrick Everett
cjrg...@my-deja.com wrote in message <82gu1d$n0i$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
<snip>
>
>Many thanks.
>
>Not having read the passage in question in a larger context, I'm not
>entirely sure how to interpret WW's statement. It doesn't appear to be
>a flat statement that Nilsson had no business singing hochdramatisch
>roles. Would it be fair to say that WW was so pleased by the
>"jugendlich" quality of Nilsson's voice that he thought she was simply
>perfectly suited to that Fach? Or that he feared she might damage her
>voice by extending herself into roles that might have been unsuitable,
>as too many other sopranos have done?
>
The point that seemed important to me was that, before making his comment to
La Nilsson, Wieland had only just heard her sing for the first time (unless
by "later" she meant "much later"). Of course, Nilsson went on to say, she
was unable to promise Wieland, as he had requested, that she would never
sing Isolde, because she was already engaged to make her debut in that rôle
only two months later!
Derrick
MD
Shahrdad wrote:
> In her first seasons at the Met, many of the reviews marveled at the ease
> and purity with which she took all the B's and C's. It was only in her
> fifties that she (Flagstad) lost this facility.
I think you'll find in reading the reviews that following people like
Ljundberg and Leider, Flagstad's voice seemed to have much more facility on
top than Met audiences were used to hearing, and that's quite true. She also
had perfect pitch and was able to sing cleanly on the center of the pitch,
which was also a novelty to the Met in the mid-1930's. But Flagstad was never
happy singing her highest notes, even in her first Met seasons. Traubel was
even less happy above an A, and often omitted whatever notes she could,
including the famous high C's in Act 2 of Tristan, fairly early on.
My only mention of Flagstad's extreme top range was in response to the
original poster, who claimed that Nilsson was not a hochdramatisch soprano and
that Flagstad and Traubel were, which of course is utter nonsense. All three
sang the hochdramatisch roles and were highly successful doing so for many
years, though Nilsson clearly had more facility with her top than either of
the other two ladies due to the blessings of nature. Voices like hers come
along only once or twice a century, and that the original poster considered
her a fraud, foisted on a grumbling public, was just too much to take!!
David Shengold
You wanna bet?
There is such a thing as an objective or credible statement: "Flagstad
didn't sing the top C in those years, " say, or even, "Melba was not a
success in SIEGFRIED".
Besides-- as well evidenced by your frequent claim that I am too concerned
with historical singers
(you really have *NO LOGICAL OR DEBATING SKILLS AT ALL*) -- I *never* said I
didn't accept any accounts of performances I hadn't attended. That I don't
accept *yours* or these of people connected with The Cheryl Studer Society
is rather a different matter. It is you in turn who only believe what you
choose to believe.
Next attempt.
-DLS
----------
In article <82hll2$96c$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, pin...@my-deja.com wrote:
>Ah! All of a sudden Shengold blindly accepts reviews of performances he
>never attended. I haven't been calling the fraud a fraud for nothing.
>
>Gabriel Bocanegra
>-----------------
>
>In article <82ghs2$js8$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
pin...@my-deja.com
never attended. I haven't been calling the fraud a fraud for nothing.
Gabriel Bocanegra
-----------------
In article <82ghs2$js8$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
"David Shengold" <shen...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote:
> According to Kolodin (p. 429):
> "Meanwhile Flagstad moved through another long season that began with
> a second-night Bruennhilde in DIE WALKUERE on December4 [1940] and did
> not end till a TRISTAN on April 12 [1941]. As in two previous seasons,
> she did not tax herself to sing the top C's as Isolde or the SIEGFRIED
> Bruennhilde."
dtritter
pin...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Ah! All of a sudden Shengold blindly accepts reviews of performances he
> never attended. I haven't been calling the fraud a fraud for nothing.
>
> Gabriel Bocanegra
coming from gaaaaaaaby, the earphones critic [and a lousy oen at that],
this idiocy is somewhere between risible and revolting [and a few spots
inbetween].
dft
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