Cimbasso vs. Tuba
Ricky Jimenez
trombone like floor standing instrument. It turns out it was a
cimbasso, an instrument Verdi used instead of a tuba in his mid period
operas. I went onto youtube to hear some solos and I get the
impression that it might have a more cutting sound than the tuba even
though it seems to produce less volume. Can anybody give more learned
comparison of the sounds? Thanks.
M forever
AFAIK, there was actually no specific instrument called "cimbasso". It
was a general term for bass register brass instruments and the parts
were played on whatever was locally available - there were a lot of
local variations - usually some kind of tube or similar instrument.
Verdi later had a contrabass trombone developed which he felt was a
better addition to the trombones than such tuba-like instruments.
I think the instrument you saw was actually developed by a German
instrument maker in the mid-20th century, so it is not really an
"authentic" instrument. Kind of like something they should have had,
but didn't have. Which is why Verdi later had the contrabass trombone
developed. Which, however, has a slide, not valves.
notesetter
There is such a thing as the Cimbasso, essentially a valved contrabass
trombone:
http://www.rudolf-meinl.de/index.php?id=4573
So far as the contrabass trombone, its origins go back to the
Renaissance when it was developed as a member of the "sackbut" family.
I think the modern contrabass was first used by Wagner in The Ring.
The first to use the contra in a "normal" orchestral setting was none
other than Vincent d'Indy (Symphonies 2 & 3).
M forever
> On Mar 11, 11:58 pm, M forever <mschaf...@gmx.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 12, 12:29 am, Ricky Jimenez <ricky...@bestweb.net> wrote:
>
> > > I was watching a DVD of Verdi's Stiffelio and noticed a vaguely
> > > trombone like floor standing instrument. It turns out it was a
> > > cimbasso, an instrument Verdi used instead of a tuba in his mid period
> > > operas. I went onto youtube to hear some solos and I get the
> > > impression that it might have a more cutting sound than the tuba even
> > > though it seems to produce less volume. Can anybody give more learned
> > > comparison of the sounds? Thanks.
>
> > AFAIK, there was actually no specific instrument called "cimbasso". It
> > was a general term for bass register brass instruments and the parts
> > were played on whatever was locally available - there were a lot of
> > local variations - usually some kind of tube or similar instrument.
> > Verdi later had a contrabass trombone developed which he felt was a
> > better addition to the trombones than such tuba-like instruments.
> > I think the instrument you saw was actually developed by a German
> > instrument maker in the mid-20th century, so it is not really an
> > "authentic" instrument. Kind of like something they should have had,
> > but didn't have. Which is why Verdi later had the contrabass trombone
> > developed. Which, however, has a slide, not valves.
>
> There is such a thing as the Cimbasso, essentially a valved contrabass
> trombone:
You didn't read what I said. I didn't say that there is no cimbasso. I
said that AFAIK, there *was* no specific instrument of that name in
Verdi's time. What you see on that page is a fairly modern invention.
> http://www.rudolf-meinl.de/index.php?id=4573
>
> So far as the contrabass trombone, its origins go back to the
> Renaissance when it was developed as a member of the "sackbut" family.
> I think the modern contrabass was first used by Wagner in The Ring.
> The first to use the contra in a "normal" orchestral setting was none
> other than Vincent d'Indy (Symphonies 2 & 3).
Thanks for demonstrating your Wikipedia skills.
makropulos
But there was this (the photo is of a nineteenth-century instrument):
http://www.berliozhistoricalbrass.org/cimbasso-0190.jpg
However,there were probably other instruments that performed a similar
function and were called a cimbasso. It's quite an intriguing
question.
Ricky Jimenez
The one I saw in the orchestra in the ROH DVD of Stiffelio looks like
the ones on the page you cite. I suppose the much smaller bell than
the tuba means that the amplitude of the sound wave it produces is
smaller. I've sort of convinced myself that it can be played more in
tune and has a more pungent tone quality than the tuba. Anbody else
have an opinion on that?
M forever
As you can see, the instrument pictured there is actually quite
different from the floor-standing valved instrument mentioned and
pictured in earlier posts. It was indeed also called "cimbasso" but
the term was generally used to denote low register brass instruments.
The word is an abbreviation of "corno in basso" which was often
written as "c. in basso" in scores, and, once again, just meant
whatever brass instrument was available to play the lower register
parts. That doesn't mean it was supposed to be a bass (French) horn.
The word "corno" or horn was used in a very general way, just like
Jazz musicians today call any kind of wind instrument a "horn". There
was no standardization of instrument types or nomenclature at all in
the 19th century. In fact, there was a bewildering variety of
instruments, especially wind, and in particular brass instruments, and
new ones were developed all the time.
The "cimbasso" parts were typically played on whatever was available.
That could be an instrument like the one you pictured, it could be a
form of serpent, an ophicleide, any kind of bass tubas which were
developed from the middle of the century or any other kind of "bass
horn". There was also an instrument called "Russian bassoon" ("basson
russe") which was, however, not a "bassoon" in the modern sense. The
word "bassoon" itself just means a low wind instrument, not
necessarily just the specific woodwind instrument bearing that name in
English today. The German word "Posaune" for trombone is derived from
the same word. Similarly, the Italian word "trombone" simply means a
big "tromba" which is the trumpet which word in turn actually comes
from the French "trompette" which simply means a small "tromba". The
word "tromba" just means any kind of brass instrument. Therefore,
confusingly, the French horn is called "trompa" even today in Spanish,
but it's not a "trumpet" or "tromba".
Many low brass instruments had a wooden body with finger holes or keys
like the one in your picture because the technology of valves was only
developed in the early 19th century and took a long time to perfect.
Instruments with wooden, or more rarely, metal bodies but with cup or
funnel shaped mouthpieces like brass instruments have been known for
centuries. There was also a keyed trumpet in the late 18th century, in
fact, Haydn's trumpet concerto was written for that instrument.
Slowly, in the course of the 19th century, those instruments were
replaced by valved brass instruments as the technology became better,
but even in the later 19th century, there was no standardization at
all. That's why Verdi had the contrabass trombone developed which was
called "trombone basso Verdi" but which was not necessarily exactly
the same instrument as the contrabass trobone Wagner called for. As
you probably know, Wagner also had his own type of instrument
developed, the "Wagnertube" which has a mostly cylindrical bore rather
than a conical bore like the (French) horn, but which is played with a
horn mouthpiece (and therefore always operated by horn players). He
also used a bass trumpet which is actually played by trombone players.
Like I said, the instrument originally mentioned and pictured, the
floor-standing one, did not exist in the 19th century. It was
developed in the 1950s or so by a German instrument maker. The idea
was to have an instrument that could be used to play those "cimbasso"
parts with an instrument closer in tone to the modern bass tuba that
is often used to play those parts, and an instrument which is closer
in playing technique to a modern trombone so that trombone players
could easily learn to use it. Trombones typically have slides rather
than valves (apart from some thumb valves) but that is easy to learn
for trombone players - the bass trumpet has valves, too, and there was
actually also a valved trombone in Verdi's day. Opera orchestra still
use that instrument sometimes because some of the parts are very hard
to play with slides the way Verdi wrote them. Some of them even
include trills which are extremely hard to play on a slide trombone.
M forever
You would have to ask someone who has tried both that instrument and
the tuba whether or not it is easier to play in tune. I have no idea
though what gives you the idea that that might be the case, based on
what the instrument looks like.
The *amplitude* of the sound waves has nothing to do with the size of
the bell. It is a function of how hard you blow into the instrument on
the other side. The bore and layout of the instrument, and the size
and shape of the bell influence the sound *color* (i.e. the overtone
spectrum), not the amplitude.
notesetter
Ricky Jimenez
My comment was based on listening to some online excerpts of tuba and
cimbasso playing. In the articles by players, I have only found that
they mention that the cimbasso blends better with trombones when
comparing the sound qualities, so I maybe wrong. As far as the bell,
like a megaphone, it makes the sound louder in the direction it is
pointing; it certainly can't increase the total energy/amplitude
overall. The cimbasso has the smaller bell pointing at the audience;
the tuba has the larger bell pointing up at the stage. Obviously
microphone placement has something to do with what I heard on the
excerpts. One would need to hear them both live to really understand
the difference.
ronwhit
You might find the following article to be of interest:
http://www.tubaforum.it/Lists/Articoli/images/james_gourlay_cimbasso_paper.pdf
Ron Whitaker
Jenn
<9b4a34ff-2b18-4738...@e8g2000vbz.googlegroups.com>,
M forever <msch...@gmx.net> wrote:
Intonation wise, tuba and cimbasso are about the same, in my experience.
But they "blow" very differently, partially because one is conical bore
and the other cylindrical.
M forever
> In article
> <9b4a34ff-2b18-4738-bd63-1679d542c...@e8g2000vbz.googlegroups.com>,
Some interesting first-hand insights here from Douglas Yeo, bass
trombone of the BSO:
Jenn
<7fa44e1b-833f-48a2...@c9g2000vby.googlegroups.com>,
M forever <msch...@gmx.net> wrote:
Yep, good thread. Ed and Doug are both great guys and great players.