J(J)ose or J(H)ose from Carmen??
johnputnam
I was just watching the Covent Garden/Mehta DVD of Carmen and
they used the "H" sound in Don Jose instead of the "J" sound.
So what's correct? TIA
johnputnam
skip
dtritter
spanish name: hoe-say
french opera: zhoh-zay
for performing purposes, stick with the french.
dft
J.Venning
"dtritter" <dtri...@bway.net> wrote in message
news:3EA27086...@bway.net...
> spanish name: hoe-say
> french opera: zhoh-zay
> for performing purposes, stick with the french.
> dft
Unless you're Danish, in which case it is sjo-ssay. Scandinavians don't seem
to be able to pronounce, let alone sing, the affricated "s" between two
Italian vowels , nor the start of a German word with an "s". They also sing
the Italian "e" as "uh" when it is at the end of the word. To each his/her
own.
J.
johnputnam
> french opera: zhoh-zay
> for performing purposes, stick with the french.
>
> dft
-david gable wrote:
You made the mistake of pronouncing it correctly . . . correctly in the
sense
of "as the Spanish would pronounce it." But the French make no attempt to
pronounce it correctly in that sense and pronounce it with an initial
(French)
J sound: zho-ZAY. The latter is correct if you are singing in Bizet's
opera.
-david gable
So what caused the hoe-say to be used in the Covent Garden disc? The fact
that they were singing in London?? Thanks to all who answered.
Commspkmn
<< So what caused the hoe-say to be used in the Covent Garden disc? The fact
that they were singing in London?? >>
Maybe they were playing a hoke on the audience.
daniel f. tritter
johnputnam wrote:
this in perfidious albion, whose literary scholars persist over the centuries
in identifying that scoundrel, don juan, as "don JEW-en."
dft
daniel f. tritter
johnputnam wrote:
this in perfidious albion, whose literary scholars persist over the centuries
Valfer
tell you that Finnish baritone Tom Krause speaks French without a
trace of an accent. His two recordings of the opera also attest to
this. The same can be said of Nicolai Gedda.
As to the pronunciation of "Don José", I believe that consistency is
better than propriety in this case. Rather than fight Bizet, one has
to follow through with the way he set these names to music. The
accentuation of Carmen should be CAR-men, but in the music it's always
car-MEN. The same with "Carmencita" which is car-men-CI-ta, but Bizet
makes it car-men-ci-TA. Escamillo should be es-ca-MI-llo, and Bizet
makes it es-ca-mi-LLO. Zúñiga, Morales and Micaela (more commonly
Miguelina in Spain) undergo the same process. How about the
librettists' economy in fusing the words "torero" and "matador" into
"toreador"? Charming!
Add my vote to "stick with the french."
Valfer
"J.Venning" <Ven...@tdcadsl.dk> wrote in message news:<3ea3c8ba$0$199$edfa...@dread15.news.tele.dk>...
J.Venning
"Valfer" <Val...@MSN.com> wrote in message
news:ad3a18ad.03042...@posting.google.com...
> Are you sure it's all Scandinavians, and not just the Danes?
Yes, my dear Valfer. We have many Swedes, Norwegians, and Fins amongst us,
and they have trouble with these consonants and vowels. I am quite sure that
they do it unintentionally, because they do correct themselves when these
were pointed out, but gradually slip back to their old habits. The two you
mentioned are of course major league international singers, and in the case
of Gedda, an accomplished linguist.
J.
Edward A. Cowan
*sounds* as though there is stress on the final syllables of French
words, but really there is none. For English speakers (and possibly
German speakers, too?), this non-accentuation produces an aural illusion
of final-syllable stress. Something similar happens with Swedish when,
in a two-syllable word, the intonation of the second syllable is often
higher and goes lower than that of the first syllable. (Cf. "Svarta
rosor") This just *sounds* like second-syllable stress to others, but
it's really not. --E.A.C. (who took a three-year minor in French long
ago...)
Valfer <Val...@MSN.com> wrote:
> The
> accentuation of Carmen should be CAR-men, but in the music it's always
> car-MEN. The same with "Carmencita" which is car-men-CI-ta, but Bizet
> makes it car-men-ci-TA. Escamillo should be es-ca-MI-llo, and Bizet
> makes it es-ca-mi-LLO. ZЗЯiga, Morales and Micaela (more commonly
> Miguelina in Spain) undergo the same process.
--E.A.C.
Proud Clarion
etc., and Baltsa, Carreras, Ricciarell, Van Dam & Co.) use the Spanish
pronunciation of Jose. Don't know if there really is a "right" or "wrong" way
here. (Both recordings also use spoken dialogue rather than recitative, which
I prefer.)
PC
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
"J" if it's sung in French, "H" if it's sung in Spanish ...or English?
(Thus francophone Jose van Dam's first name is "jhos-say" not "ho-say")
Ancona
> this in perfidious albion, whose literary scholars persist over the centuries
> in identifying that scoundrel, don juan, as "don JEW-en."
Perhaps this perfidious practice is predicated on the proposition that
the poem's prosody presupposes a polysyllabic persona.
Given Byron's use of the ottava rima/pentameter scheme, does not the
two-syllable last name fit the scansion where a one-syllable name
would not (e.g., "But Juan was my Moscow . . . and my Mont Saint Jean
seems Cain")?
Either that, or British literary scholars are unabashed anti-Semites.
Childe Ancona
Mr. Knowitall
"Ancona" <anco...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:6f89925c.03042...@posting.google.com...
> "daniel f. tritter" <dtri...@bway.net> wrote in message
news:<3EA40D0C...@bway.net>...
>
> > this in perfidious albion, whose literary scholars persist over the
centuries
> > in identifying that scoundrel, don juan, as "don JEW-en."
>
> Perhaps this perfidious practice is predicated on the proposition that
> the poem's prosody presupposes a polysyllabic persona.
>
Perfectly proper.
Leonard Tillman
>Perfectly proper
T'is so, for the following serenade to you,, Milady.....
"As your hubris goes up, up, up,
and your gotkes go down, down, down..
melons out of season,
propelled with a reason
at your fat head,
at your fat head!
LT
Thanks the good people who wrote
the classic Robert Hall Clothing jingle
that has inspired the above.
Jeffrey Snider
have heard professionals do both. Of course in Spanish the "N" of "Don" is
pronounced, where as in French it is nasalized. (Like "Don Carlos".)
"johnputnam" <john...@softcom.net> wrote in message
news:va6uij3...@corp.supernews.com...
Mark D Lew
"Jeffrey Snider" <snide...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Of course, in Spanish it is "H". The French say "Zh" (Like "Zsa Zsa".) I
> have heard professionals do both. Of course in Spanish the "N" of "Don" is
> pronounced, where as in French it is nasalized. (Like "Don Carlos".)
Our resident Hispanophones can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that
in common pronunciation the "n" sounds more like a "ng" sound when it
precedes a hard "c" or "g". Thus, unless one is making a point to
enunciate beyond the normal call of duty, the "n" in Spanish "Don Carlo"
never closes to an actual "n" sound with the tongue on the alveolar ridge.
In some Latin American dialects, this applies also to the "h" sound of the
letter "j", which frequently sounds somewhat like a "kh". On
Spanish-language radio here in middle California I have often heard "San
Jose" and "Los Angeles" pronounced so that they sound like "sahng-kho-say"
and "los ahng-khe-les".
mdl
tlste...@tpgi.com.au
"Jeffrey Snider" <snide...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Since everything else in the opera is in French, it would seem a bit
precious to reserve the Spanish pronunciation for this one word. I would
expect José to begin with the sound we hear in the middle of "pleasure" in
English.
--
Cheers!
Terry
(remove the numbers if replying direct)
Valfer
TV is an affectation brought about by the announcers' excessive
pronunciation of the "n" sound. Some forty years ago, Jose Montalvan
(brother of the famous actor Ricardo) developed a brand of "broadcast
Spanish" which became almost a standard in most of Latin America and
the U.S.. This artificial dialect has the virtue of being accepted and
clearly understood across many borders.
The "kh" in San Jose and Los Angeles was Montalban's creative way of
finding middle ground between the Latin American and the Spanish
pronunciation of the "j" sound. Before anyone ask where is the "j" in
Angeles, "g" before "e or i" is pronounced the same as "j".
You are rignt about the "n" never closing when followed by a hard
consonant. This is one of many ways Spanish speakers avoid sounding
clipped. Eliminating glottal stops is another. Of all the languages
I know, Spanish is one of the most"legato."
Valfer
mark...@earthlink.net (Mark D Lew) wrote in message news:<markdlew-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net>...
Mark D Lew
Val...@MSN.com (Valfer) wrote:
> My compliments on your excellent ear! The "ng" you hear in radio and
> TV is an affectation brought about by the announcers' excessive
> pronunciation of the "n" sound. Some forty years ago, Jose Montalvan
> (brother of the famous actor Ricardo) developed a brand of "broadcast
> Spanish" which became almost a standard in most of Latin America and
> the U.S.. This artificial dialect has the virtue of being accepted and
> clearly understood across many borders.
What is especially interesting, from a phonetic point of view, is listening
to the radio call-in talk shows. There is some variation in accent even
among announcers, but the variation among the callers is even greater.
mdl