Church Music
resound
been declining. I am not religious myself but I will occasionally go to a
church program with my wife. She recently changed to a Unitarian church.
Is seems to me that the Unitarian choirs or sort of like "Up With People."
It is a large church and there appears to be no attempt to perform what I
would call "classical" music utilizing "operatic" voices. Maybe it is
because a lot of church music was written by famous composers for the
Catholic church and perhaps the Unitarians want to avoid this material.
Modulate58
they are trying to attract people and will do whatever it takes. Many churches
advertise two services, the "upbeat" one and the "traditional" one. I tend to
favor New Thought churches but rarely go because they usually have a soloist
crooning third-rate, semi-popular, syrupy music that I just cannot tolerate. It
destroys any possibility of religious feeling. What to do? Stay home and listen
to Schubert. It's more spiritual.
Jim Dunphy
Unfortunately even most Catholic churches assiduously avoid this material :-)
Jim Dunphy
Potterbarb
mostly old hymns "cleaned up", by that I mean no references to Jesus, very few
to God,or songs composed by Unitarians,I find them very spiritual and enjoy
singing in the choir
Wilson Nichols
Virginia. We do all types of music, yes, including opera. I've always
taken the approach that no one is going to like whatever you do every
Sunday, so the best you can hope for is to have a varied music program, so
that, eventually, you will do some type of music that has meaning for at
least MOST of the congregation.
Wilson Nichols
"Potterbarb" <potte...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030523132434...@mb-m14.aol.com...
Jeffrey Snider
denomination. The trend toward "contemporary worship" is everywhere,
and those of us "bucking" the trend feel like we're in a losing
battle.
There was a time when even Southern Baptist Churches would perform
Messiah, Elijah, The Creation, etc. Now it is rare for them to do
anything more than five or ten years old.
If you go to the choral and church music lists, you will dozens of
postings on this "hot-button" issue.
Jeffrey Snider
Homer's father was a Presbyterian minister, and I recall that Richard
Tucker started as a cantor. I think Milnes' mother was a church
musician, and I'm sure lots of others!
Valfer
classical music performed by fewer classically trained musicians and
singers, perhaps one should look at the money factor first.
There used to be a time when my students were in terrific demand for
church jobs. Now, fewer opportunities exist, as church music programs
have gravitated towards more "popular" (read "cheaper") musical
selections. An untrained singer who can perform what you call "Up
with People" music with acceptable results will be lost trying to sing
a Bach cantata. FYI, Bach was a Lutheran composer, as was Buxtehude.
Haendel's "Messiah" takes a such a bashing every year in so many
churches that I no longer seek employment as a soloist for it.
Having sung in two Unitarian churches, I can vouch for their openness
when it comes to musical repertoire. I am a classically trained
singer, and my services were pot to good use there. The same goes fot
two Lutheran churches and two Catholic churches. I subbed in two
Synagogues, and both had excellent music programs. Of course, music
is a vital part of the Hebrew service.
In fact, it is the Catholic church which took the biggest step
backwards, IMO, when it comes to music, when they abandoned the Latin
Tridentine Mass. I haven't opened a Liber Usualis in almost forty
years. Gregorian chant has an appeal I cannot explain.
Valfer
"resound" <jm...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:<qFnza.477$TI2.25...@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com>...
resound
"Classical" music. It appears they are like a lot of the rest of them. I
fear this is the second stage of the end of good singing, the first being
the decline of music teaching in the schools.
I appreciate everyone's comments in this thread.
"Wilson Nichols" <wnich...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:wotza.1526$D32....@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
Jeffrey Snider
their "praise band" members. (To say nothing of their CCLI fees, equipment
upgrades, sound systems, etc.)
I am fortunate that even with my modest budget I am able to hire student
"section leaders" which really helps! I also have a very gifted young
organist (from South Africa-try finding young American organists!)
I actually sang an opera aria in my church this year. (Well,
arguably-"Watchful's Song" from Vaughan Williams' Pilgrim's Progress, which
is technically a "Morality" but sure seems like an opera to me!)
Anyway-I love "connections" between genres, so can anyone tell me where the
"Dona Nobis Pacem" from Puccini's Messa da Gloria" re-appears? (I think the
Kyrie resurfaces in Edgar, BTW.)
"Valfer" <Val...@MSN.com> wrote in message
news:ad3a18ad.03052...@posting.google.com...
Lyle K. Neff
> Anyway-I love "connections" between genres, so can anyone tell me where the
> "Dona Nobis Pacem" from Puccini's Messa da Gloria" re-appears? (I think the
> Kyrie resurfaces in Edgar, BTW.)
I don't know that, but if your organist would like a different number to play as
at the end of a wedding (or even of a regular church service), I've made an
organ arrangement of the "Gloria Patria and Wedding Recessional" from Cesar
Cui's opera "The Saracen."
Best,
lkn
--
Lyle K. Neff -- mailto:ln...@udel.edu
http://copland.udel.edu/~lneff
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
The Unitarians of my day were far LESS of that mind than many of the
other "protestant" denominations! And remember, Bach - one of the most
prolific of composers of religious music - was a staunch Lutheran. His
masses were written for the Lutheran service, even though they were in
Latin.
I'm not sure which country you're in, but in the U.S., the Episcopal
churches seem to be the last holdouts for great religious music. Not
all of them, of course, and here and there churches of other
denominations may use great religious music in their services. (As a
matter of fact, the job I most enjoyed was as alto soloist for a large
Baptist church in Los Angeles, whose choir director was much enamoured
of "English Cathedral" music - although we sang Bach and Vivaldi and
Brahms there, too.)
A good deal of the blame for the deterioration of which you speak may,
IMHO, be squarely laid at the door of our educational system, which long
ago stopped teaching music and art in the lower grades. When I was a
kid, everyone was taught to sing, along with the rudiments of reading
vocal music. By third grade we were singing part-songs in our daily
music classes. Not everyone sang well, of course, but at least they had
some CONCEPT of "singing" (not just listening to others sing).
Consequently, when people of the generations who still had public school
music chose to join a church choir, they had some exposure to singing in
harmony, and did not have to be taught the primary basics - the daunting
task which all too often faces church choirmasters nowadays!
Then too, along with the change in viewpoint from "You should dress up
for church out of respect for God!" to "Dress any way you like, God
doesn't care so why should you?" came the notion that music used in
worship should be "relevant" to everyday life, rather than an offering
to the deity of man's highest accomplishments, performed to the best of
the worshippers' abilities. Consequently, in some of the less formal
denominations, the only difference between church and popular music
nowadays lies in the lyrics - the style and musical content are about
the same.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Modulate58 wrote:
>
> I don't know about Unitarians, but this is a trend in most churches. I think
> they are trying to attract people and will do whatever it takes. Many churches
> advertise two services, the "upbeat" one and the "traditional" one. I tend to
> favor New Thought churches but rarely go because they usually have a soloist
> crooning third-rate, semi-popular, syrupy music that I just cannot tolerate.
In my youth, between church jobs I flirted a bit with one of those,
too. The soloist where I attended was okay - a fairly good
bass-baritone, whose selections were generally art songs and Lieder (in
translation) with lyrics appropriate to New Thought (although sometimes
a bit startling to someone raised in a more traditional religious
discipline). The organist, too, had a free hand in his choice of
selections - which were occasionally less appropriate. (Somehow, an
organ rendition of the Violetta-Germont duet from Act 2 of Traviata did
not seem to belong in a church service of any denomination!)
> It
> destroys any possibility of religious feeling. What to do? Stay home and listen
> to Schubert. It's more spiritual.
...Or Mahler, or some of the great choral works. Since I no longer
sing, I seldom get to regular church services any more. (After all
those years and years of getting up early every Sunday for the
pre-service choir rehearsal, I figure I've paid my dues - now I'd rather
"sleep in" when I can.)
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
When I was a young voice student, a "church job" was what paid for my
voice lessons - a situation that was pretty common for most of us, in
those days!
susurrus
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" <evg...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3ECEDCCF...@earthlink.net...
Uh . . Evelyn . . the question pertained to "opera's great voices". You know
very well that Matthew has been complaining about bandwidth shortages here,
so let's try to stick to the point, eh?
susurrus
"resound" wrote in
> She recently changed to a Unitarian church. >
Do her clothes still fit?
Jeffrey Snider
"Madrigal" in Act II of Manon Lescaut.
"Lyle K. Neff" <ln...@udel.edu> wrote in message
news:3ECEA76...@udel.edu...
Valfer
posting. There is some value to consistency.
Valfer
"susurrus" <susu...@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<banijs$scl$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>...
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
susurrus wrote:
>
> "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" <evg...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:3ECEDCCF...@earthlink.net...
> >
> >
> > Jeffrey Snider wrote:
> > >
> > > How many of opera's great voices got started in church music? Louise
> > > Homer's father was a Presbyterian minister, and I recall that Richard
> > > Tucker started as a cantor. I think Milnes' mother was a church
> > > musician, and I'm sure lots of others!
> >
> > When I was a young voice student, a "church job" was what paid for my
> > voice lessons - a situation that was pretty common for most of us, in
> > those days! >
>
> Uh . . Evelyn . . the question pertained to "opera's great voices".
So? As I was pointing out, many of "opera's great voices" paid for
their lessons the same way I did! Other circumstances being favorable,
I might well have been one of them - did you ever hear me sing? (If
not, what basis have you for judgment?)
Jeffrey Snider
if not dependant on each other. As less and less classical music is
performed in church (and school for that matter) the fewer young people will
have the "trained" sound in their ears.
Perhaps this is cyclical, and we'll go back before long, but I fear we are
on the losing side in this battle.
susurrus
"Valfer" <Val...@MSN.com> wrote
> One must congratulate susurrus for being consistently vapid in his
> posting. >
Well, don't let *me* hold you back.
> There is some value to consistency. >
Not always. Not when it consists of smug superior fatuity, if that's a word.
Edward Waffle
susurrus wrote in message ...
>
>Not always. Not when it consists of smug superior fatuity, if that's a
word.
It is now.
Mark D Lew
<susu...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Not always. Not when it consists of smug superior fatuity, if that's a word.
Isn't the refrain of Escamillo's aria marked "avec fatuité" in the score?
mdl
Mark D Lew
potte...@aol.com (Potterbarb) wrote:
> in our Unitarian Fellowship we sing hymns from our Unitarian Hymnal,they are
> mostly old hymns "cleaned up", by that I mean no references to Jesus, very few
> to God,or songs composed by Unitarians,I find them very spiritual and enjoy
> singing in the choir
The last time I sang in a U-U church, it was Herod's song from Jesus Christ
Superstar. Lots of references to Jesus in that one, though not exactly of
the sort you'd expect in church.
The theme was something like "So you think you're the Messiah?" As I
recall, the sermon discussed Jesus quite a bit, in a serious way.
Wacky folks, those U-U's.
mdl, lapsed unitarian
Lyle K. Neff
> The last time I sang in a U-U church, it was Herod's song from Jesus Christ
> Superstar. Lots of references to Jesus in that one, though not exactly of
> the sort you'd expect in church.
Maybe one could just substitute Homer Simpson's word, "Jeebus".
;)
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
It's not just Christian churches, either - I attended a Bar Mitzvah in a
Reformed temple yesterday. Not only was the cantor a woman, but the
music bore no resemblance to what I thought was "traditional" Jewsih
liturgy - it was the same common, garden variety musical pablum you hear
in other "brands" of relgious services nowadays, too. (The woman had a
rather pleasant, trained voice, but her cantorial duties certainly
didn't make any demands upon it.)
Leonard Tillman
>Jeffrey Snider wrote:
>My point was actually a simple one: that
> church music and opera are related, if not
> dependant on each other. As less and less
> classical music is performed in church (and
> school for that matter) the fewer young
> people will have the "trained" sound in their
> ears.
>Perhaps this is cyclical, and we'll go back
> before long, but I fear we are on the losing
> side in this battle.
---------------------------
>It's not just Christian churches, either -
>I attended a Bar Mitzvah in a Reformed
> temple yesterday. Not only was the cantor a
> woman, but the music bore no resemblance
> to what I thought was "traditional" Jewsih
> liturgy - it was the same common, garden
> variety musical pablum you hear in other
> "brands" of relgious services nowadays, too.
> (The woman had a rather pleasant, trained
> voice, but her cantorial duties certainly didn't
> make any demands upon it.)
What you describe can be heard at www.wqxr.com on most Fridays, 5:30
PM, ET.
The female cantors engaged at this Evening Service of the Temple
Emanu-El, are almost always lyric-sopranos of notably fine quality.
The music seems of recent composition, and while *very* pleasant, has
little likeness to the virtuoso "Characteristically Hebraic" cantorial
melodies more frequently heard even a single generation ago.
*Those* passages, with their ornamentations to rival Rossini and
Bellini, can still be enjoyed in the recordings of the art's legendary
exponents, - including Rosenblatt, Kwartin, Oisher, the Koussevitskys,
Peerce, Tucker, and (for a while) Schmidt and Jadlowker.
Peerce's and Tucker's cantorials may be the most readily available.
The music and such voices, combined with their fervor, can be mildly
described as *dazzling*.
LT
OmbraRecds
>because a lot of church music was written by famous composers for the
>Catholic church and perhaps the Unitarians want to avoid this material.
"Oh Virgin Mother
Lady of Good Counsel
Sweetest Flower Heaven Ever Knew
In All Doubts I fly To Thee For Guidance
Mother, Tell Me what Am I To Do".
Contessa Hipodamaeia Hauk_Wartegg, Choral Director, La Capella Casa Verdi
Jeffrey Snider
Unending" by Simon Sargon (it's about Abraham and Isaac) for the 50th
anniversary of the Choir of Temple Emmanu-el in Dallas. (I got to add
Abraham to my list of Biblical Characters.)
Well, that put me in the mood to listen to Bloch's "Sacred Service" with
Bernstein and Merrill. (Which I bought used for $2!) Now THAT'S some
operatic music!
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" <evg...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3ED18056...@earthlink.net...
Andre Storfer
fatuity (__________).
[ad. F. fatuité = Pr. fatuitat, ad. L. fatuitatem, f. fatuus foolish.]
1. Folly, silliness, stupidity. Now chiefly (? after 2) in stronger
sense: Crass stupidity, ‘idiotic’ folly; mental blindness caused by
‘infatuation’.
The F. word, being associated with its etymological cognate fat fop, has
usually the sense of ‘conceited folly, silly affectation’; this sense,
if it occurs in Eng., is only a Gallicism.
1648 Eikon Bas. v. 28 It had argued..extream fatuitie of minde in Mee,
so far to binde My own hands at their request.
1660 Waterhouse Arms & Arm. 53 They descend to the fatuity of bringing
wild beasts into their Gods and Emperours places.
1797 Mrs. Radcliffe Italian xxiii. (1824) 660 He confounded delicacy of
feeling with fatuity of mind.
1812 H. & J. Smith Rej. Addr. x. (1873) 93 The applause of
unintellectual fatuity.
1859 Thackeray Virgin. lxxxv, O strange fatuity of youth!
1878 Lecky Eng. in 18th C. I. i. 10 Attacked with a strange fatuity the
very Church on whose teaching the monarchical enthusiasm mainly rested.
b. Something fatuous; that which is fatuous.
1538 Bale Thre Lawes 1386 In vayne worshyp they teachynge mennys
fatuyte.
1887 F. Hall in Nation (N.Y.) XLIV. 141/2 Star-gazing..and kindred
futilities and fatuities.
2. Idiocy, mental imbecility, dementia. Now rare.
162151 Burton Anat. Mel. i. i. iii. iii. 34 If..the animal spirits
are..cold, [follows] fatuity and sottishness.
a1676 Hale Hist. Placit. Cor. (1736) I. iv. 29 Ideocy or fatuity à
nativitate.
1707 Floyer Physic. Pulse-Watch 93 The Ancients imputed Fatuity to the
Refrigeration of the Head.
1748 Hartley Observ. Man i. iii. 391 A species of Madness; as Fatuity or
Idiotism is.
1779 Johnson Lett. Mrs. Thrale 6 Apr., Death is dreadful, and fatuity is
more dreadful.
1797 M. Baillie Morb. Anat. (1807) 434 He has met with this appearance
in cases of fatuity.
1884 in Syd. Soc. Lex.
M. Slater
>fatuity (__________).
>[ad. F. fatuité = Pr. fatuitat, ad. L. fatuitatem, f. fatuus foolish.]
>The F. word, being associated with its etymological cognate fat fop, has
>usually the sense of ‘conceited folly, silly affectation’; this sense,
>if it occurs in Eng., is only a Gallicism.
Cher Andre,
That would be:
futuo, futuere, futui, fututum
"To have sexual intercourse with"- <snip the gory details>
check:
http://www.obscure.org/obscene-latin/vocabulary.html
Mark
Andre Storfer
That was a copy from OED 2nd edition.
It was given to me by The Anonymous Francophile.
Teach them latin, I have enough to deal with english.
And profanity...ca va sans dire.
AES
M. Slater
>Mark Mon Cher Ami,
> That was a copy from OED 2nd edition.
> It was given to me by The Anonymous Francophile.
> Teach them latin, I have enough to deal with english.
> And profanity...ca va sans dire.
>AES
Quand même.
Mark