Successful singers with no formal music education
Divamanque (Evelyn Vogt Gamble)
Charles Brooks's News wrote:
> I'm always fascinated by the number of successful opera/leider singers that
> suddenly leap onto the stage from other professions e.g.. holtzmair (I
> believe he was a barrister before deciding to take on the lieder world -
> although I was very disappointed with his winterize I believe he has a lot
> of promise) and wasn't Samuel Ramey doing something else in his 20's as
> well?
Because a singer's career, unlike that of an instrumentalist, cannot really
start until the "instrument" has matured, a LOT of us do other work than
singing to keep from living on the streets until we get that first break. Some
of us, alas, get stuck in that "stop gap" profession and never make it into the
profession we REALLY want! (I seem to recall quite a few successful composers
who started life as barristers, so why not singers, too?)
>
> I am about to finish the honors year of a Bmus double performance in cello
> and voice and I find the lack of basic musical knowledge amongst many
> professional/want-to-be-professional singers astounding. I wonder how far
> this lack of knowledge (meaning basic harmony etc...) extends up the
> professional ladder? I know it would be almost impossible to be a successful
> cellist/instrumentalist now days without the most sound knowledge of
> structure and form and so on. How much of what these people do is on the
> advice of their coaches?
I don't think you find many "musical illiterates" among successful opera and
concert singers nowadays - the competition is too stiff (even for tenors, who
have the rarer voices). In fact, a singer's career has a requirement an
instrumentalist's lacks: he/she is expected to KNOW all those languages - the
days are long gone when one could get by with learning the words by rote!
>
> Onto another topic - I also watched a video of Ramey at Glyndeborn singing
> Nick Shadow (what a fantastic role!) but found his acting to be quite
> stiff - I had noticed this in a met video of him as the Toreador as well -
> is he usually so rigid? perhaps this style works for stage but not so well
> for video? Being one of my favorite singers I am keen to find a good
> video/laser-disc of one of his better performances - and suggestions would
> be most welcome.
>
> From: Andrade Santos
> To: Charles Brooks's News
> Date: Thursday, 10 June 1999 23:09
> Subject: Re: feruccio ferlanetto
>
> >Correction: the surname is FURLANETTO.(By the way: before joining the Opera
> >world is was an...agronomist!)
Mark D. Lew
the most educated about music frequently are not the same as those who
actually studied music in school.
mdl
Charles Brooks's News
suddenly leap onto the stage from other professions e.g.. holtzmair (I
believe he was a barrister before deciding to take on the lieder world -
although I was very disappointed with his winterize I believe he has a lot
of promise) and wasn't Samuel Ramey doing something else in his 20's as
well?
and voice and I find the lack of basic musical knowledge amongst many
professional/want-to-be-professional singers astounding. I wonder how far
this lack of knowledge (meaning basic harmony etc...) extends up the
professional ladder? I know it would be almost impossible to be a successful
cellist/instrumentalist now days without the most sound knowledge of
structure and form and so on. How much of what these people do is on the
advice of their coaches?
cobwe...@my-deja.com
music training. He can't read music and must hire people to teach him new
roles. He may have had wonderful vocal training of some sort, but no music
school would have let him graduate with no reading ability.
In article <376079D6...@earthlink.net>,
"Divamanque (Evelyn Vogt Gamble)" <evg...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> Charles Brooks's News wrote:
>
> > I'm always fascinated by the number of successful opera/leider singers that
> > suddenly leap onto the stage from other professions e.g.. holtzmair (I
> > believe he was a barrister before deciding to take on the lieder world -
> > although I was very disappointed with his winterize I believe he has a lot
> > of promise) and wasn't Samuel Ramey doing something else in his 20's as
> > well?
>
> Because a singer's career, unlike that of an instrumentalist, cannot really
> start until the "instrument" has matured, a LOT of us do other work than
> singing to keep from living on the streets until we get that first break. Some
> of us, alas, get stuck in that "stop gap" profession and never make it into the
> profession we REALLY want! (I seem to recall quite a few successful composers
> who started life as barristers, so why not singers, too?)
>
> >
> > I am about to finish the honors year of a Bmus double performance in cello
> > and voice and I find the lack of basic musical knowledge amongst many
> > professional/want-to-be-professional singers astounding. I wonder how far
> > this lack of knowledge (meaning basic harmony etc...) extends up the
> > professional ladder? I know it would be almost impossible to be a successful
> > cellist/instrumentalist now days without the most sound knowledge of
> > structure and form and so on. How much of what these people do is on the
> > advice of their coaches?
>
> I don't think you find many "musical illiterates" among successful opera and
> concert singers nowadays - the competition is too stiff (even for tenors, who
> have the rarer voices). In fact, a singer's career has a requirement an
> instrumentalist's lacks: he/she is expected to KNOW all those languages - the
> days are long gone when one could get by with learning the words by rote!
>
> >
> > Onto another topic - I also watched a video of Ramey at Glyndeborn singing
> > Nick Shadow (what a fantastic role!) but found his acting to be quite
> > stiff - I had noticed this in a met video of him as the Toreador as well -
> > is he usually so rigid? perhaps this style works for stage but not so well
> > for video? Being one of my favorite singers I am keen to find a good
> > video/laser-disc of one of his better performances - and suggestions would
> > be most welcome.
> >
> > From: Andrade Santos
> > To: Charles Brooks's News
> > Date: Thursday, 10 June 1999 23:09
> > Subject: Re: feruccio ferlanetto
> >
> > >Correction: the surname is FURLANETTO.(By the way: before joining the Opera
> > >world is was an...agronomist!)
>
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Brian Newhouse
News" <brook...@scs.vuw.ac.nz> wrote:
"I'm always fascinated by the number of successful opera/leider singers that
"suddenly leap onto the stage from other professions e.g.. holtzmair (I
"believe he was a barrister before deciding to take on the lieder world -
"although I was very disappointed with his winterize I believe he has a lot
"of promise) and wasn't Samuel Ramey doing something else in his 20's as
"well?
"I am about to finish the honors year of a Bmus double performance in cello
"and voice and I find the lack of basic musical knowledge amongst many
"professional/want-to-be-professional singers astounding. I wonder how far
"this lack of knowledge (meaning basic harmony etc...) extends up the
"professional ladder? I know it would be almost impossible to be a successful
"cellist/instrumentalist now days without the most sound knowledge of
"structure and form and so on. How much of what these people do is on the
"advice of their coaches?
Of course, instrumentalists _start_ earlier--much earlier, generally by
eight or nine years of age. A few male singers start out as boy sopranos,
but that's not too common. A few singers also have instrumental
backgrounds. I remember a Met broadcast Singer's roundtable in the 70s,
in which each one of the panelists played a little something on the
instrument they started out on (Evelyn Lear played horn); and in the wake
of Christine Goerke's succes fou as Iphigenie a couple of years back, I
speculated on the possibility of another such intermission feature for,
say, a *Clemenza di Tito* broadcast featuring Mozart's Kegelstatt-Trio
with Goerke, that matinee's Vitellia, on clarinet, and Lorraine Hunt, that
matinee's Sesto, on viola. (But who on piano?)
Some countries also have more active amateur classical music scenes and/or
more extensive general music education than the United States seems to.
Certainly England seems to. Even those singers who like Ian Bostridge
seem to leap in from other professions may well have been singing a lot in
their spare time before, and almost certainly learned the basics of music
at school even before their voice changed.
"Onto another topic - I also watched a video of Ramey at Glyndeborn singing
"Nick Shadow (what a fantastic role!) but found his acting to be quite
"stiff - I had noticed this in a met video of him as the Toreador as well -
"is he usually so rigid? perhaps this style works for stage but not so well
"for video? Being one of my favorite singers I am keen to find a good
"video/laser-disc of one of his better performances - and suggestions would
"be most welcome.
Ramey has always been a bit of a stiff onstage. Even when taking his
shirt off (as he used to routinely), he's always been more a Stimmdivo
than a Kunstdivo (cf Sutherland vs. Callas, or Freni vs. Scotto)
--
Brian Newhouse
newh...@newton.crisp.net
Matthew Good
career.
Matthew
Charles Brooks's News <brook...@scs.vuw.ac.nz> wrote in message
news:92906742...@totara.its.vuw.ac.nz...
> I'm always fascinated by the number of successful opera/leider singers
that
> suddenly leap onto the stage from other professions e.g.. holtzmair (I
> believe he was a barrister before deciding to take on the lieder world -
> although I was very disappointed with his winterize I believe he has a lot
> of promise) and wasn't Samuel Ramey doing something else in his 20's as
> well?
> I am about to finish the honors year of a Bmus double performance in cello
> and voice and I find the lack of basic musical knowledge amongst many
> professional/want-to-be-professional singers astounding. I wonder how far
> this lack of knowledge (meaning basic harmony etc...) extends up the
> professional ladder? I know it would be almost impossible to be a
successful
> cellist/instrumentalist now days without the most sound knowledge of
> structure and form and so on. How much of what these people do is on the
> advice of their coaches?
> Onto another topic - I also watched a video of Ramey at Glyndeborn singing
> Nick Shadow (what a fantastic role!) but found his acting to be quite
> stiff - I had noticed this in a met video of him as the Toreador as well -
> is he usually so rigid? perhaps this style works for stage but not so well
> for video? Being one of my favorite singers I am keen to find a good
> video/laser-disc of one of his better performances - and suggestions
would
> be most welcome.
>
Apurt
newh...@mail.crisp.net (Brian Newhouse) writes:
> I remember a Met broadcast Singer's roundtable in the 70s,
>in which each one of the panelists played a little something on the
>instrument they started out on (Evelyn Lear played horn); and in the wake
>of Christine Goerke's succes fou as Iphigenie a couple of years back, I
>speculated on the possibility of another such intermission feature for,
>say, a *Clemenza di Tito* broadcast featuring Mozart's Kegelstatt-Trio
>with Goerke, that matinee's Vitellia, on clarinet, and Lorraine Hunt, that
>matinee's Sesto, on viola. (But who on piano?)
Damn! Some short while after your suggestion, Brian, I found a pianist and
didn't post; now it's slipped my memory. I seem to think it might have
been a Vitellia. I'll try to search my brain-disk. There could, however,
be some sort of Clemenza intermission feature: Barbara Bonney (Servilia)
went to Europe to pursue her cello studies and ended up singing in German
houses/companies for several years; Kirchschlager (Annio) was a
percussionist (she told a funny story on a PBS NYPhilharmonic
intermission feature about wanting to be the first woman member of
the Vienna Philharmonic and banging whatever with all her might
and von Karajan (as I recall) telling her to quiet down). So, let's see,
we have clarinet, viola, cello and percussion. Any quartet for those
instruments exist? I don't know about Hunt (who is a Goddess to
me) but the other three are pretty funny; I think we'd also have
to let them talk as well.
And Lord, would I love to have Goerke as Vitellia. I have heard or
seen (or with Hunt, will see at NYCO) the others. All exlempary.
Ann Purtill
---------------------------
Ann Purtill
New York City
Ap...@aol.com
Matthew B. Tepper
pondered what I'm pondering as follows...
>
>Kirchschlager (Annio) was a percussionist (she told a funny story on a
>PBS NYPhilharmonic intermission feature about wanting to be the first
>woman member of the Vienna Philharmonic and banging whatever with all
>her might and von Karajan (as I recall) telling her to quiet down).
Not inappropriate, considering her name contains the root of the word
"Schlagzeug"!
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/index.htm
My main music page --- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/berlioz.htm
And my science fiction club's home page --- http://www.lasfs.org/
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Matthew B. Tepper
Trista...@voltaire.dircon.co.uk pondered what I'm pondering as
follows...
>
>I know Robert Lloydd was in the Merchant Navy before embarking on a
>singing career.
>
>Matthew
Aksel Schiotz was a teacher before he got his break; and oh, to have
been one of the telephone subscribers in that lonely part of England
where one of the operators was Kathleen Ferrier!
Placido 21
have memorized but cannot read) in our opera group...we perform in concert
performance..and sing..but I really learned it all by rote..and although i am
sorry I had no formal training.>I could not be a language teacher and a
musician at the same time....
I feel like a giant SIGN should descend and say (to the audience0 "HEY>>>THE
DUDE CAANOT SIGHT READ!!!!!!) but I have been able to sing complete Dulcamaras
and bartolos and so I must be doing something right..i guess all those standee
line talks and all the recordings helped...and my learning by OSMOSIS paid
off.I recentl did a lst minute Colline..never studied it a day in my life...so
maybe a few of us can do it..but i recommend a really great formal musical
education to all......not that you will be particularly interesting.....but it
helps to at least play an instrument..CH
Charlie, baritono somewhat supremo,gradually becoming an internet legend in my
own mind. Soviero and Zeani rule together (with Resnik)
jzydek
think, I have quite a time with memorization -- whereas, you hear
it--memorize it because you must in order to practice it. So even though I
know one should know everything one can about music theory, in a strange
way, you have quite an edge on me!
June
Placido 21 wrote in message
<19990611184432...@ng-ck1.aol.com>...
MNockin
adequate education. They really only need the degrees if they want to teach in
a university after they retire from sionging.
Matthew B. Tepper
shmo...@aol.com pondered what I'm pondering as follows...
>
>Siegfried Jerusalem was a professional bassoonist before he became a
>singer.
Dang, if I had a time machine I'd go back a couple of decades with a few
cartons of perfect double-reeds....