A Question re LA TRAVIATA
GRNDPADAVE
contemporary realism.
What has long perplexed me is the very ending of Act One when Alfredo is heard
off-stage repeating the lines he addressed earlier to Violetta.
Is this meant to be serenade? Is Alfredo actually supposed to be singing these
phrases beneath Violetta's window? Or is this supposed to be Violetta's
recollections made audible?
For me this is one of the strangest "curtains" in all Verdi.
==G/P Dave
David Melnick
Esteemed GPD, it doesn't bother me! It's a thrill
every time. It's reality itself.
Alfredo isn't serenading Violetta. He's thinking about her. He's lingering outside
her home, full of love.
Didn't (don't) you enjoy the feeling that you and
your beloved were thinking about each other
at that very moment even though you were apart?
And know at the same time that each of you
was perhaps a bit out of sync in your thoughts?
Talk about realism!
Dav
David Melnick
P.S. As for the other possibility that you mentioned,
I don't think it's only in her memory. Wouldn't
that make it a kind of mad scene?
Roger D. White
It's totally ambiguous, isn't it? I suppose the director could be the
deciding factor: If, when Alfredo begins singing, she turns in the
direction of the window, we may assume he is actually engaging in an
aubade. But even better, I think, is the other option, that she just
can't get those words out of her mind, try though she does.
~ Roger
Leonard Tillman
>==G/P Dave
-------------------------------------
I've always felt that recollections or "mental echoes" of
Violetta's, were a possibility (and, perhaps an alternative dramatic
device, most effectively used in a film-version yet to be done), -- but
that what we were hearing was Alfredo actually repeating his phrases of
adoration - at some distance (whether beneath her window, or farther
down the hall near the point of exit), which are then his main - or only
- thoughts.
LT
David Melnick
> It is a serenade. It is the only moment harp is used in Traviata, and an
> offstage harp very often means an accompainment to a serenade (e.g.
> Trovatore, Cavalleria).
To me it is more comparable to the Miserere
than to Manrico's Act I serenade, despite
the differences in the two situations. Alfredo and
Violetta are separated but thinking about each
other.
Only my opinion. I guess I never questioned my own
thoughts about this passage before. Yikes! Typical
of me! It's a fascinating problem. Thanks, GPD,
for bringing it up.
Dav
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 04/11/2002 11:41 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <1fahm5n.16k93o9zp94e2N%ll...@dada.it>
>
>GRNDPADAVE <grndp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> LA TRAVIATA may be the first instance of a serious opera that stages
>> contemporary realism.
>>
>> What has long perplexed me is the very ending of Act One when Alfredo is
>> heard off-stage repeating the lines he addressed earlier to Violetta.
>>
>> Is this meant to be serenade? Is Alfredo actually supposed to be singing
>> these phrases beneath Violetta's window? Or is this supposed to be
>> Violetta's recollections made audible?
>>
>> For me this is one of the strangest "curtains" in all Verdi.
>
>
>offstage harp very often means an accompainment to a serenade (e.g.
>Trovatore, Cavalleria).
>
>
>Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: ll...@dada.it
> Home page: http://www.angelfire.com/ar/archivarius
> (musicologia pratica)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thank you, Signor Logi.
My favorite analysis of Verdi's operas is Vincent Godefroy's two-volume work:
"The Dramatic Genius of Verdi."
In Volume One (NABUCCO to LA TRAVIATA), Godefroy writes (on page 261):
"The intrusion of Alfredo's voice is a musical bonus. The libretto makes no
mention of it. Piave seems not to have planned it. Verdi is repeating his
recent *tour de force* outside the Aliaferia dungeon, where he had achieved
such a hit with Leonora onstage and Manrico's voice floating from the wings.
Yet Violetta, although she hears Alfredo twice, does not succumb. Her
irresponsible roulades bring down the curtain with the clearest possible
understanding that whatever may be the young man's emotions, it will be nothing
more than a brief and giddy holiday for her."
My problem with this is the timing. Alfredo has left. Then the party-goers
leave. Violetta has a two-stanza reverie, "Ah fors'e lui", and a two-stanza
cabaletta. *Then* we hear Alfredo. Has he, all this time, been silently in
some alley-way, and then, all-of-a-sudden, launches his melody?
While Godefoy writes "she [Violetta] hears Alfredo twice", I find no indication
that Violetta actually has *heard* Alfredo (unlike Leonora who actually
questions some of the words Manrico uses in the Miserere).
Unerringly Verdi has ended the act with a billiant *coup de theatre*.
Musically it is very satisfying -- and taken as a psychologic reminiscence, I
find it persuasive. But yet I find it at variance with the pervasive realism
of this enchanting masterpiece.
I thank all of you who have provided your insights on this unforgettable
passage.
==G/P Dave
Andante teneramente
----------snip------
> While Godefoy writes "she [Violetta] hears Alfredo twice", I find no indication
> that Violetta actually has *heard* Alfredo (unlike Leonora who actually
> questions some of the words Manrico uses in the Miserere).
-----snap------
But Violetta whispers "Oh!" and sings "Oh, amore", when she is first
hearing Alfredo. Or aren't these words original?
Cheers!
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 04/11/2002 1:30 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <a94kra$kg0$03$1...@news.t-online.com>
There is no question that the words are in the libretto and probably Veri's
rather than Paive's.
The issue is whether Alfredo is actually meant to be *heard* by Violetta (and
possibly her neighbors) or is this *her* momentary recollection of his earlier
protestations?
12+ minutes elapse following Alfredo's leaving the party (10+ minutes after the
guests have left) until Alfredo's voice is heard.
If his intent had been to serenade Violetta from outside her house, would he
have not been heard sooner?
My inclination is to regard his "presence" as psychological (i.e., in Voletta's
mind) rather than physical.
E stano.
==G/P Dave
Skip
her *cough*, so anything is possible.
"Andante teneramente" <Andante.t...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:a94kra$kg0$03$1...@news.t-online.com...
John Lynch
GRNDPADAVE wrote:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> There is no question that the words are in the libretto and probably Veri's
> rather than Paive's.
>
> The issue is whether Alfredo is actually meant to be *heard* by Violetta (and
> possibly her neighbors) or is this *her* momentary recollection of his earlier
> protestations?
>
> 12+ minutes elapse following Alfredo's leaving the party (10+ minutes after the
> guests have left) until Alfredo's voice is heard.
>
> If his intent had been to serenade Violetta from outside her house, would he
> have not been heard sooner?
>
> My inclination is to regard his "presence" as psychological (i.e., in Voletta's
> mind) rather than physical.
>
> E stano.
Not totally strano. Violetta is the--um--protege of Baron Douphol, who was among
the party guests, and who has said he doesn't like Alfredo. I think the tenor is
being circumspect by waiting for the crowd to disperse before slipping back to
serenade Violetta.
JRL
David Melnick
> My inclination is to regard his "presence" as psychological (i.e., in Voletta's
> mind) rather than physical.
That sounds awfully Germanic* or at least English
to me. _Mutatis mutandis_, it would be
a little like Antonia's mama, no?
It turns Violetta, IMO, into a Blanche DuBois who
happens to luck out in that Alfredo actually turns
out to be a capital fellow who does move in with
her (at her expense, of course!) by Act 2.
But that's just me. I may not have enough
imagination to etherialize Alfredo at that point.
GPD, did you always think about that passage in
the way you said you do? Or have you come to
that belief since you "grew up"?
David
*If you throw Dante and Petrarch at me, I'll
collapse in a heap of ashes! ;-)
Matthew B. Tepper
news:20020411145847...@mb-df.aol.com:
> 12+ minutes elapse following Alfredo's leaving the party (10+ minutes
> after the guests have left) until Alfredo's voice is heard.
>
> If his intent had been to serenade Violetta from outside her house,
> would he have not been heard sooner?
Have YOU ever fallen in love at first site, and then had to find a harp
rental place on no notice?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Top 3 worst UK exports: Mad-cow; Foot-and-mouth; Charlotte Church
Matthew B. Tepper
news:3CB5B201...@pacbell.net:
I think it's a magical moment, showing us all that, from this very first
meeting, Violetta and Alfredo are what we would now call "soulmates."
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 04/11/2002 2:56 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3CB5EA82...@pacbell.net>
>
>GRNDPADAVE wrote:
>
>> My inclination is to regard his "presence" as psychological (i.e., in
>Voletta's
>> mind) rather than physical.
>
>That sounds awfully Germanic* or at least English
>to me. _Mutatis mutandis_, it would be
>a little like Antonia's mama, no?
>
>It turns Violetta, IMO, into a Blanche DuBois who
>happens to luck out in that Alfredo actually turns
>out to be a capital fellow who does move in with
>her (at her expense, of course!) by Act 2.
>
>But that's just me. I may not have enough
>imagination to etherialize Alfredo at that point.
>
>GPD, did you always think about that passage in
>the way you said you do? Or have you come to
>that belief since you "grew up"?
>
>David
>
The first time I saw LA TRAVIATA was back in 1950 or 1951. The cast included
Albanese, Tagliavini and Silveri.
The only phrase that stayed with me was "mysterioso." The opera completely
puzzled me because so much of the action appeared to occur between the acts (as
opposed to RIGOLETTO where all the events unfolded before my eyes).
My wife insists that I am yet to "grow up" -- but this ending to Act One has,
and continues, to puzzle me.
My feeling is that the opera would benefit by a second duet in which Alfredo
returns and -- like Des Grieux in MANON LESCAUT -- persuades Violetta to run
off with him.
It is difficult to criticize Verdi in this regard inasmuch as before BALLO he
had written nothing that I would construe as "erotic". And even there the
music strikes me more as enthusiastic than sensual.
Verdi was, despite his protestations to the contrary, a man of immense culture.
He conducted Haydn's Creation when he was 12 years old. He was fluent in
French and spent many months in Paris. He read and loved translations of
Shakespeare. He was familiar with the music of Bach and Palestrina. And he
certainly knew (although he professed to dislike) Mozart.
Why wouldn't Verdi have been influenced by German and English art? Lombardi
was occupied by Austria and, after Napoleon's defeat, England was the mightiest
power in Europe.
Violetta, unlike Blanche DuBois, is really a woman who is, by degrees,
transformed into someone approaching sainthood. She is generous, forgiving,
devout. Verdi has ennobled her, yet preserved her essential humanity.
==G/P Dave
GRNDPADAVE
>
>grndp...@aol.com (GRNDPADAVE) wrote in
>news:20020411145847...@mb-df.aol.com:
>
>> 12+ minutes elapse following Alfredo's leaving the party (10+ minutes
>> after the guests have left) until Alfredo's voice is heard.
>>
>> If his intent had been to serenade Violetta from outside her house,
>> would he have not been heard sooner?
>
>Have YOU ever fallen in love at first site, and then had to find a harp
>rental place on no notice?
>
>--
>Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Have I ever fallen in love at first sight?
Yes -- and I had the pluck to marry her.
But I don't harp on the subject.
Shalom,
==G/P Dave
Mark D Lew
grndp...@aol.com (GRNDPADAVE) wrote:
> Is this meant to be serenade? Is Alfredo actually supposed to be singing
these
> phrases beneath Violetta's window? Or is this supposed to be Violetta's
> recollections made audible?
I think it is supposed to be a serenade, but I love Dav's answer. That
works for me. Verdi surely must have been aware that he was being more
theatrically poetic than realistic here.
By the way, although the scene is the first time that Alfredo is introduced
to Violetta, it is not the first time he has seen her. Gastone has
arranged the introduction, knowing that Alfredo is interested. He tells
Violetta that Alfredo is another who admires her and that he inquired about
her daily during her recent convalescence.
--
In article <9763-3CB...@storefull-2194.public.lawson.webtv.net>,
ra...@webtv.net (Roger D. White) wrote:
> It's totally ambiguous, isn't it? I suppose the director could be the
> deciding factor [...]
Well, I for one would say that the question does not need to be "decided".
In art, ambiguity is a virtue. I like the Heisenbergian clouds of
possibilities without any one definite reality.
--
David Melnick:
> *If you throw Dante and Petrarch at me, I'll
> collapse in a heap of ashes! ;-)
If you throw Dante and Petrarch at me, I'll dissolve into a heap of rose petals.
mdl, feeling poetic today
TheDivo
>> While Godefoy writes "she [Violetta] hears Alfredo twice", I find no
>indication
>> that Violetta actually has *heard* Alfredo (unlike Leonora who actually
>> questions some of the words Manrico uses in the Miserere).
>-----snap------
>
>But Violetta whispers "Oh!" and sings "Oh, amore", when she is first
>hearing Alfredo. Or aren't these words original?
The score does indicate that Alfredo is "outside".
Alcindoro
it persuasive. But yet I find it at variance with the pervasive realism
of this enchanting masterpiece.<
Interesting discussion. I have never had any problem at all with this moment.
When listening to a recording I can envision Alfredo outside the window OR
Violetta remembering his words -- it certainly gives the director and
performers several juicy options to interpret. As for the 'pervasive realism'
-- well, it's OPERA! Frankly, the fact that all of Violetta's guests suddenly
leave en masse so soon after dinner (as though the bus has just pulled up
outside) always strikes me as harder to accept.
Roger D. White
responded: << Well, I for one would say that the question does not
need to be "decided". In art, ambiguity is a virtue. I like the
Heisenbergian clouds of possibilities without any one definite
get into any deep philosophical ramifications; but was that, as the
scene *is* open to two different (and IMHO) valid interpretations; at
an actual performance, one or the other will be depicted. When just
listening, of course, we're free to visualize as we wish.~ Roger
(frustrated opera director :)
Lis K. Froding
Over the years, at different performances, I've "understood" it in
different ways, possibly as a result of the direction. Don't know
that it's actually *supposed* to be one way or the other, so whatever
the viewer/listener thinks it is, that's what it is.
Lis
Lis K. Froding
I don't think it would be too strange for him to be hanging around
in close proximity for a while after "leaving". After all, he has
spent an entire year being in love with her, coming to her house
every day while she was ill. Seems his life revolved around her,
so why wouldn't he be lingering after all the other guests had left
as well? Seems entirely plausible to me. He may have been singing
all along --- "we" just didn't hear it because there was a noisy
party going on --- he's so happy because he now has an "appointment"
to see her again the very next day to bring back the flower.
Of course, it could also just be in her mind.
Lis
Lis K. Froding
>
> grndp...@aol.com (GRNDPADAVE) wrote in
> news:20020411145847...@mb-df.aol.com:
>
> > 12+ minutes elapse following Alfredo's leaving the party (10+ minutes
> > after the guests have left) until Alfredo's voice is heard.
> >
> > If his intent had been to serenade Violetta from outside her house,
> > would he have not been heard sooner?
>
> Have YOU ever fallen in love at first site, and then had to find a harp
> rental place on no notice?
>
That doesn't hold water. At the time the opera starts, he has
already been in love with her for a year.
Cub Driver
I've always thought of him as being drunk in the garden.
Rather like Freddy Einsfort-Hill (whatever) when he's singing On the
Street Where You Live.
all the best -- Dan Ford (email: webm...@danford.net)
see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub
fantocin
often used the device of the offstage voice or offstage musicians, not
only in "Trovatore: as mentioned, but in "Aida","Ernani"( first two
that come to mind). I thought it was his way of breaking the "fourth
wall" of the proscenim stage,giving an aural presence to the locations
beyond the stage setting.
As for this moment...I thought Alfredo was outside waiting to be
admitted. I think Violetta tells him to return when the flower she
gives him has died...and isn't her flower of choice, the Camellia rather
short-lived?
Lis K. Froding
>
> As for this moment...I thought Alfredo was outside waiting to be
> admitted. I think Violetta tells him to return when the flower she
> gives him has died...and isn't her flower of choice, the Camellia rather
> short-lived?
She said for him to come back the next day, not later the same
evening. I seriously doubt he would dare come at an inappropriate
time.
Lis
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 04/13/2002 1:48 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3CB7D4C5...@ix.netcom.com>
But it is already the next day. It is no longer "the same evening."
The chorus departed -- after Alfredo left -- on seeing the first rays of dawn.
Alfredo is impetuous. It is -- already -- "o ciel domani !"
:>)) G/P Dave
Lis K. Froding
True, in a way. But, come on, do you honestly think he would find
it appropriate to come calling on her at six in the morning?
Certainly not before noon.
Lis
Mark D Lew
<too...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> I don't think it would be too strange for him to be hanging around
> in close proximity for a while after "leaving".
Can I go forward when my heart is here?
Turn back, dull earth, and find thy center out.
mdl
Himadri
> LA TRAVIATA may be the first instance of a serious opera that stages
> contemporary realism.
>
> What has long perplexed me is the very ending of Act One when Alfredo is heard
> off-stage repeating the lines he addressed earlier to Violetta.
>
> Is this meant to be serenade? Is Alfredo actually supposed to be singing these
> phrases beneath Violetta's window? Or is this supposed to be Violetta's
> recollections made audible?
>
> For me this is one of the strangest "curtains" in all Verdi.
>
It certainly makes sense for Alfredo to be singing under the window,
but your alternative interpretation is also valid, and seems more
poetic. It sems that Verdi was not merely pioneering realism: he was
going beyond it at the same time!
Perhaps a parallel may be drawn with the last scene of Janacek's
"Katya Kabanova". This is also a realistic opera, but in that
wonderfully moving last scene, we hear the "voice of the river" - a
wordless chorus. On stage, only Katya appears to hear this. This is
obviously something going on in her mind, but the audience gets to
hear it as well.
Regards, Himadri
REG
in Violetta's imagination.
"Himadri" <hima...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:715c8a74.0204...@posting.google.com...
REG
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:a94pp...@enews4.newsguy.com...
Moira de Swardt
Alcindoro <alci...@aol.com> wrote in message
> Interesting discussion. I have never had any problem at all with
this moment.
> When listening to a recording I can envision Alfredo outside the
window OR
> Violetta remembering his words -- it certainly gives the director
and
> performers several juicy options to interpret. As for the
'pervasive realism'
> -- well, it's OPERA! Frankly, the fact that all of Violetta's
guests suddenly
> leave en masse so soon after dinner (as though the bus has just
pulled up
> outside) always strikes me as harder to accept.
Yes, this always amuses me as well. Maybe Violetta also owns a copy
of Michael Bolton's "My Secret Passion" which she plays when she
needs some "alone" time?
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Matthew B. Tepper
$2...@hades.is.co.za:
That would certainly get me to tell the hostess "Thanks for a wonderful
time, but it's getting late...."