WILLIAM TELL: is it an overrated opera?
GRNDPADAVE
I thought Muti's conducting was superb and the male singers excellent,
especially Chris Merritt and Giorgio Zancanaro.
Although the opera has superb moments, most of them in Act II, what depressed
me were the long stretches of recitative in which Rossini's orchestra
punctuates the end of a phrase with a single chord, equivalent to a grunt.
This got to be so annoyingly tiresome, that I think my next opera will be
PARSIFAL.
Outside of Act II, I did like Tell's sage admonition to his son in the famous
apple scene: "Resta immobile". (Here I think Rossini anticipates the slow
movement in Rigoletto's "Cortigiani"). Also excellent, I thought was the very
end of the opera where a rainbow appears and the music clearly foreshadows the
end of DAS RHEINGOLD.
The energy built up towards the end of Act II (with the gathering of cantons)
is largely dissippated in the following scenes. And there is nothing at all in
the opera which offers (imho) the excitement and sheer musical brilliance of
the overture.
No wonder when Rossini was asked what was the best of his operas, he would
usually reply, DON GIOVANNI.
==G/P Dave
Tom Kaufman
>Scala.
> I thought Muti's conducting was superb and the male singers excellent,
>especially Chris Merritt and Giorgio Zancanaro.
>
>Although the opera has superb moments, most of them in Act II, what depressed
>me were the long stretches of recitative in which Rossini's orchestra
>punctuates the end of a phrase with a single chord, equivalent to a grunt.
>This got to be so annoyingly tiresome, that I think my next opera will be
>PARSIFAL.
>
frying pan into the fire. At least William Tell does have it's second act, and
the great tenor aria in the fourth act. What does Parsifal have, except
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz?
I wouldn't go to a Domingo Parsifal if you paid me $1000.00, plus
transportantion and two nights at a hotel. Just not worth the boredom.
Don Tomasso
Don Tomasso
Tom Kaufman
URL of web site:
<A href="www.geocities.com/Vienna/8917/index.html">Tom Kaufman's site</A>
Oisk17
>
>I wouldn't go to a Domingo Parsifal if you paid me $1000.00, plus
>transportantion and two nights at a hotel. Just not worth the boredom.
>
>Don Tomasso
You must be a lot wealthier than I, Tom. At those rates, I would even go to
hear Hillary Clinton sing "Blues in the Night," and other apt
selections...That's $200 an hour, Tom. I tutor chemistry for a lot less...
Regards,
Paul
benjo maso
"Tom Kaufman" <tomk...@aol.com> schreef in bericht
news:20010405170331...@ng-ma1.aol.com...
>
> I wouldn't go to a Domingo Parsifal if you paid me $1000.00, plus
> transportantion and two nights at a hotel. Just not worth the boredom.
>
Benjo Maso
Terrymelin
>Scala.
> I thought Muti's conducting was superb and the male singers excellent,
>especially Chris Merritt and Giorgio Zancanaro.
>
Try a different recording ... listening to Merritt can be quite a trial ... Go
for the Pavarotti/Freni or the Caballe/Gedda. Both are superb and make the case
that this is a great opera.
Terry Ellsworth
Tom Kaufman
>hear Hillary Clinton sing "Blues in the Night," and other apt
>selections...That's $200 an hour, Tom. I tutor chemistry for a lot less...
>
>Regards,
>
>Paul
>
I wish, I wish. I guess I thought it was a good way to make a point--but you
cought me. Still, let's try to figure it out. Let's say I leave the house at 1
P.M. and get to NYC at 4. Check into the hotel, have dinner, 5 hours at the
sleeping potion, and another 4 or 5 getting back. So including travel time
(don't forget I was a consultant, and consultants do get paid for travel
time)--it's more like 15 hours or so, or comes down to under about $75.00 an
hour. For the worst torture imaginable to man.
De gustibus
Tom
Commspkmn
Go
for the Pavarotti/Freni or the Caballe/Gedda. Both are superb and make the case
that this is a great opera.
Terry Ellsworth >>
And I think the opera fares much better in the original French. So, I would
opt for the Cabballe/Gedda over the Pavarotti/Freni.
Ken
Matthew B. Tepper
<20010405165531...@ng-bd1.aol.com>:
>Although the opera has superb moments, most of them in Act II, what
>depressed me were the long stretches of recitative in which Rossini's
>orchestra punctuates the end of a phrase with a single chord, equivalent
>to a grunt. This got to be so annoyingly tiresome, that I think my next
>opera will be PARSIFAL.
Dare I say it? It has its moments, but it also has its quarter-hours!
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Top 3 worst UK exports: Mad-cow; Hoof-and-mouth; Charlotte Church
Jon Davis
>the opera which offers (imho) the excitement and sheer musical brilliance of
>the overture.
Are you aware that an alternate finale to WILLIAM TELL exists that uses the
"Lone Ranger" theme as a final chorus? Rossini wrote it for an Italian version
titled VALLACE, and can be heard on the Nelly Miricioiu Rossini Gala album
available from Opera Rara (ORR 211)
Jon Davis
If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something.
Britta
>
>This week I listened to the exciting Philips recording made live from La Scala.
> I thought Muti's conducting was superb and the male singers excellent,
>especially Chris Merritt and Giorgio Zancanaro.
The name of this thread is "WILLIAM TELL: is it an overrated opera?"
Overrated? Who overrated it? When did you last see this opera
performed?
I've seen it exactly one time. What shall I say -- great overture.
Hi ho Silver and all that -- great overture, lots of fun. But when is
this opera ever performed? How many times have you seen it on stage?
What does "overrated" mean? An "overrated" opera should get a
performance every now and then, shouldn't it?
BTW, the one time I did see it, it was called GUGLIELMO TELL.
GUILLAUME TELL is even better, it was originally in French after all.
If you want to give a nod to the Swiss national hero, I'd even take
WILHELM TELL. But WILLIAM TELL -- has this thing been performed in
English somewhere? I'd love to hear about it. TELL us everything!!
regards, Britta
Tom Kaufman
I tend to agree---although the moments are longer than by a composer I dare not
mention, while the quarter hours are shorter.
Don Tomasso
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 04/05/2001 6:04 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <9aitl...@drn.newsguy.com>
Dear Britta,
WILLIAM TELL (aka GUILLAUME TELL aka GUGLIELMO TELL) is overrated by Philip
Gossett for one -- the Chicago University professor who is an acknowledged
expert on Rossini.
I would say Berlioz overrated it, too.
Overrating I would define as an assessment made by serious critics that does
not accord with my own observation.
Gossett's case is weakened by his failing to note the dreary character of
Rossini's recitatives.
He also overlooks the episodic nature of the opera. It either is going nowhere
or is moving out in too many directions. Is the opera about Mathilde and
Arnold, about Tell and Gessler or about the Swiss patriots?
Some of the musical numbers are brilliant, but the opera, imho, does not add up
to a masterpiece.
The reason I suspect we don't see it is that not many opera lovers think it's
worth seeing.
Despite the glories of Muti's conducting and some of the singing, I agree with
those who prefer the EMI recording, sung in French, despite Gardelli's languid
beat.
==G/P Dave
Tom Kaufman
>English somewhere? I'd love to hear about it. TELL us everything!!
Sure: It was performed in English in London way back in 1830, probably
sporadically after that, also in NYC in 1831, Australia in 1870.
Other languages it was given in include german, Croatian, Russian, danish,
Swedish, Polish--and, like as not Finish, Bulgarian, Dutch, etc. etc.
Don Tomasso di Rossinimania
Mark D. Lew
> BTW, the one time I did see it, it was called GUGLIELMO TELL.
> GUILLAUME TELL is even better, it was originally in French after all.
> If you want to give a nod to the Swiss national hero, I'd even take
> WILHELM TELL. But WILLIAM TELL -- has this thing been performed in
> English somewhere? I'd love to hear about it. TELL us everything!!
Ah, Britta, you're missing the point. I don't know about the opera, but
the *overture* is almost always performed in English.
mdl
(who once took a ride in a Swazi-mobile)
Mike Richter
performance that I care for. I know the Muti on video and find it
tedious on all counts. For my taste, it is one of Merritt's less
objectionable recordings, but he still is less satisfying to me than
Kunde under Gelmetti. In every other respect - language, conducting and
soloists - the Gelmetti is far superior and is staged better as well.
Zancanaro is loud but unsubtle; one hearing of Pertusi should reveal why
I feel that way.
It is tragic that this performance is not in commercial distribution on
video. Here we have an excellent production and performance of a seminal
work - but so little access to it that we are in general reduced to a
second-rate, graceless shadow of the grandest of Grand Operas.
Britta
mark...@earthlink.net schrieb:
>Ah, Britta, you're missing the point. I don't know about the opera, but
>the *overture* is almost always performed in English.
Ah, America has spoken. Funny thing: on the continent where this
overture was written, on the continent where this opera has undoubtedly
had the most performances, on the continent which produced both
Rossini and Wilhelm (Willem) Tell --- we poor misguided Europeans don't
know from nothing about any William. But, since America is obviously
the final authority, I stand corrected.
Actually, I always thought Americans called it "The Lone Ranger Theme."
Britta
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 04/06/2001 12:05 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3ACD4E82...@cpl.net>
Mike,
About what percentage of WILLIAM TELL is written on automatic pilot? I'd say
-- conservatively -- about 30%. Those recitatives with every phrase punctuated
by an orchestral grunt show Rossini's inadequacy as a composer of serious
opera.
Compare this to AIDA wher every measure is meaningful. Verdi cuts out all the
fat. I think of something as simple as "morte invan cdercai" where the bass
drum offer the perfect ending to Amonasro's cadence.
It isn't a matter of performance, imho. Mathilde, Arnold, Gessler, Jemmy are
all pasteboard figures. There is very little of the spirit of Schiller in all
this (compared to, say, DON CARLOS).
There's ample good music in TELL, but an awful lot of pitchblende has to be
mined in order to glean the radium.
All the best,
==G/P Dave
Commspkmn
<< Compare this to AIDA wher every measure is meaningful. Verdi cuts out all
the
fat. I think of something as simple as "morte invan cdercai" where the bass
drum offer the perfect ending to Amonasro's cadence. >>
I think it would be more useful to compare Guillaume Tell to other operas
written around the time of its premiere (1829), not one composed in 1871.
<< It isn't a matter of performance, imho. Mathilde, Arnold, Gessler, Jemmy
are
all pasteboard figures. There is very little of the spirit of Schiller in all
this (compared to, say, DON CARLOS).
>>
Boy, do we disagree on this one, Dave! I think Arnold is one of the great
tenor roles in all of opera. His duet with Tell, the great trio after he
learns of his father's death, and his final scene, all are filled with
remarkable opportunities, both musically and dramatically. Tell's aria to his
son is remarkably touching as well.
Jon Davis
>by an orchestral grunt show Rossini's inadequacy as a composer of serious
>opera.
>There's ample good music in TELL, but an awful lot of pitchblende has to be
>mined in order to glean the radium.
You might say the same thing of any number of operas by Mozart, Handel, Gluck
or even Wagner. I don't think I've ever heard of the worth of an opera being
judged by the "inventiveness" of the secco recitatives. They came with the
territory back then.
A Tsar Is Born
recordings; even Queler couldn't kill it. It's one of my top ten operas I've
never seen performed that I most want to. I should just drop everything and
go to Vienna.
Parsifal in contrast, an opera I've seen a dozen times, is on my top ten
list of operas period. I don't worry about the quarter hours of boredom
because they are called intermissions. When the music is playing (with a
great cast and a great band), I only notice hours of glorious moments. After
a good Parsifal I just want it to start all over again.
This is not the way I felt about it the first couple of times, when I did
doze off and pray for it to end. It grabs you over time. By the famous
Vickers-Rysanek-Moll performances at the Met I was high on it as I seldom
get on any other opera.
Anyone who is too bigoted in his attitude to Wagner ever to attend it once
or twice and find out why so VERY MANY opera-lovers adore this music has
obviously too small a mind to be worth trying to introduce good music to.
Hans Lick
atsar...@hotmail.com
CassidyS
opt for the Cabballe/Gedda over the Pavarotti/Freni. >>
Ditto!
Cassidy
Edward A. Cowan
> Funny thing: on the continent where this
> overture was written, on the continent where this opera has undoubtedly
> had the most performances, on the continent which produced both
> Rossini and Wilhelm (Willem) Tell --- we poor misguided Europeans don't
> know from nothing about any William. But, since America is obviously
> the final authority, I stand corrected.
FWIW, I saw _William Tell_ (as _Guglielmo Tell_) in San Antonio some
time during the 1980's, on the day following one on which I saw
Prokofieff's _War and Peace_ in Austin (ENO tour performance). And I
taught Schiller's drama several times back when I was a professor of
German.
Also FWIW, there exists a sixteenth-century Latin poem about Tell: "De
Wilhelmo Thellio elegia," by Johannes Fabricius Montanus (1527-1566),
the text of which may be found in a Reclam anthology, _Lateinische
Gedichte deutscher Humanisten_ (Reclam UB 8739[7]), with the Latin
original and a modern German translation.
--
E.A.C. (noting that today, April 6, marks the 6074th anniversary of the
beginning of the Renaissance, this being the day in 1327 on which
Petrarch first saw Laura, the object of his passion and the subject of
most of the verses in his _Canzoniere,_ esp. no.211, in which this date
is given...)
Marty Claus
Tom Kaufman <tomk...@aol.com> kirjoitti
viestissä:20010405221105...@ng-fk1.aol.com...
> > But WILLIAM TELL -- has this thing been performed in
> >English somewhere? I'd love to hear about it. TELL us everything!!
>
> Sure: It was performed in English in London way back in 1830, probably
> sporadically after that, also in NYC in 1831, Australia in 1870.
>
> Other languages it was given in include german, Croatian, Russian, danish,
> Swedish, Polish--and, like as not Finish, Bulgarian, Dutch, etc. etc.
Maybe Finnish not Finish?
- Marty Claus
benjo maso
"Edward A. Cowan" <eac...@anet-dfw.com> schreef in bericht
news:1erfq9f.mpczs913h58hsN%eac...@anet-dfw.com...
> Britta <britt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> --
> E.A.C. (noting that today, April 6, marks the 6074th anniversary of the
> beginning of the Renaissance, this being the day in 1327 on which
> Petrarch first saw Laura, the object of his passion and the subject of
> most of the verses in his _Canzoniere,_ esp. no.211, in which this date
> is given...)
According to the Gregorian calendar April 6, 1327 would have been 15 April
now, so I'me afraid you're a little late commemorating it only today. By the
way, although I agree that the Renaissance started in the South of France,
IMO it wasn't in Avignon and it was 200 years earlier -:)
Benjo Maso
Mike Richter
> -- conservatively -- about 30%. Those recitatives with every phrase punctuated
> by an orchestral grunt show Rossini's inadequacy as a composer of serious
> opera.
>
> Compare this to AIDA wher every measure is meaningful. Verdi cuts out all the
> fat. I think of something as simple as "morte invan cdercai" where the bass
> drum offer the perfect ending to Amonasro's cadence.
>
> It isn't a matter of performance, imho. Mathilde, Arnold, Gessler, Jemmy are
> all pasteboard figures. There is very little of the spirit of Schiller in all
> this (compared to, say, DON CARLOS).
>
> There's ample good music in TELL, but an awful lot of pitchblende has to be
> mined in order to glean the radium.
I've not read the other replies, so I may be redundant (again,
repeatedly and not for the first time). In addition, we are at or beyond
my competence in what follows, so I ask for correction from anyone who
is expert in the French tradition.
The comparison of Aida and Tell is not apt. It is something like
comparing Fledermaus with Falstaff. Both are comic operas, but in very
different senses. "Guilleaume Tell" is Grand Opera; Aida is a grand
opera. In fact, the Rossini is the transition from the opera of Lully to
that of Meyerbeer. I find it as inventive as "Les Troyens" and "Don
Carlos", more tuneful than the Berlioz though less than the Verdi (which
is hardly unique to Rossini).
Aida is a melodrama with immediate appeal and great, soaring music. Tell
is an epic with different objectives and a different achievement. That
does not mean (at least to me) that one is better than the other or more
highbrow or anything else - except different. There is much exposition
and declamation in Tell, neither of which belongs in or was written for
Aida. Aida has overt and intense personal passion conquering virtue;
Tell is a story of virtue overcoming passion.
Tell suffers from a great deal of ballet, Aida from less. Neither work
reaches its height when the singers are silent, so Aida seems less
tedious than Tell if one is not primarily interested in the dance. Apart
from the ballet, neither opera can be cut without destroying its fabric,
but the fabric is different in the two instances.
Edward A. Cowan
> E.A.C. (noting that today, April 6, marks the 6074th anniversary of the
> beginning of the Renaissance, this being the day in 1327 on which
> Petrarch first saw Laura, the object of his passion and the subject of
> most of the verses in his _Canzoniere,_ esp. no.211, in which this date
> is given...)
A correction: It's the 674th anniversary, not "6074th". (Those leading
zeroes do tend to encourage the _lapsus digitalis_ virus these days, no?
<g>)
--
E.A.C.
Edward A. Cowan
> According to the Gregorian calendar April 6, 1327 would have been 15 April
> now, so I'me afraid you're a little late commemorating it only today. By the
> way, although I agree that the Renaissance started in the South of France,
> IMO it wasn't in Avignon and it was 200 years earlier -:)
Thanks for the refinements. Btw, see my note to myself correcting my
caclculation of the extent of the anniversary that I, at least, am
celebrating today, the 6th of April, 2001...
--
E.A.C.
Matthew B. Tepper
<1erg5n3.gu1oz21owek88N%eac...@anet-dfw.com>:
>Thanks for the refinements. Btw, see my note to myself correcting my
>caclculation of the extent of the anniversary that I, at least, am
>celebrating today, the 6th of April, 2001...
Indeed, since the 15th is Easter for the Catholics and various Protestant
denominations, and it is also an observation of the admonition to "render
unto Caesar" for us Americans.
Tom Kaufman
>objectionable recordings, but he still is less satisfying to me than
>Kunde under Gelmetti.
Well, I guess I feel about Kunde the way Mike feels about Merritt. I enjoy
Merritt so much that I even considered going to a Wagner opera just to hear
him. OK--I rejected the thought almost immediately.
As for Kunde, let me put it this way. My second worst nightmare (my worst
nightmare will come later in this thread) is that they will do some Pacini
rarity--say Arabi nelle Gallie--and that Kunde will be tenor.
De gustibus
Don Tomasso
Tom Kaufman
>or twice and find out why so VERY MANY opera-lovers adore this music has
>obviously too small a mind to be worth trying to introduce good music to.
>
motto:
Fool me once--your fault; fool me twice--my fault.
And another one: Don't throw good money after bad. (Or good time).
Now, why in the world should I listen to a Gesamtkunswerk by Wagner of all
people, when I have all these operas by Pacini, Mercadante, Coccia, Apolloni,
Persiani, Petrella, Auber, Meyerbeer, Halevy, etc. etc. just begging to be
heard again.
As I have often stated--given the choice between Parsifal and a root canal, the
root canal wins every time.
Just look at the advantages:
I don't have to get dressed up.
The torture doesn't last as long.
I don't have to travel as far.
I don't get home in the middle of the night.
Now, if the choice is between a root canal and a parsifal with Domingo--I'll
raise the ante to two root canals.
You know what my worst nightmare is? That somebody decides to do Halevy's La
Reine de Chypre (an opera I have been dying to hear for 55 years)--and that
Domingo sings the leading tenor role.
Horrible, horrible thought.
Hyde
A Tsar Is Born
"Britta" <britt...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> Actually, I always thought Americans called it "The Lone Ranger Theme."
Sad but true, Britta:
Few Americans still study the classics, therefore few remember "The Lone
Ranger."
I show I enjoyed, though I always thought Tonto should have sung "Sombre
foret" now and then.
We usually call it, from the punchline of a dirty joke:
"Titty rump titty rump titty rump rump rump"
Hans Lick
atsar...@hotmail.com
Ed Rosen
Tebaldi, with Met orchestra. First selection: William Tell Overture. I was
seated in the 6th or 7th row. When the famous theme from this overture began,
a gentleman (?) in the very first row stood up, turned toward the audience,
and yelled at the top of his voice, "Hi ho Silver, awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!"
It was shocking, but hysterical. Everybody laughed, although they could
scarcely believe what had just happened.
Ed
Mark D. Lew
> Ah, America has spoken. Funny thing: on the continent where this
> overture was written, on the continent where this opera has undoubtedly
> had the most performances, on the continent which produced both
> Rossini and Wilhelm (Willem) Tell --- we poor misguided Europeans don't
> know from nothing about any William. But, since America is obviously
> the final authority, I stand corrected.
I'm glad you understand.
> Actually, I always thought Americans called it "The Lone Ranger Theme."
No, no, that's just the uneducated ones. Educated Americans -- you know,
the sort of folks who watch PBS -- pride themselves on knowing that the
true title is "The William Tell Overture". I'm not sure that many actually
know that there is an opera that the overture goes with, nor even that the
word "overture" implies a larger work to follow [*], but they do understand
that "overture" is part of the title for this piece -- in contrast to that
other well-known piece known simply as "The Barber of Seville" (with the
last word pronounced to rhyme with "bill").
mdl
(whose favorite Rossini overture is the Gazza Ladra)
[*] Or does it? Come to think of it, the other overture most beloved of
Americans, the "1812 Overture", stands alone, doesn't it?
Matthew B. Tepper
<markdlew-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net>:
>In article <9ajr3...@drn.newsguy.com>, Britta <britt...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>> Ah, America has spoken. Funny thing: on the continent where this
>> overture was written, on the continent where this opera has
>> undoubtedly had the most performances, on the continent which produced
>> both Rossini and Wilhelm (Willem) Tell --- we poor misguided Europeans
>> don't know from nothing about any William. But, since America is
>> obviously the final authority, I stand corrected.
>
>I'm glad you understand.
>
>> Actually, I always thought Americans called it "The Lone Ranger
>> Theme."
>
>No, no, that's just the uneducated ones. Educated Americans -- you
>know, the sort of folks who watch PBS -- pride themselves on knowing
>that the true title is "The William Tell Overture". I'm not sure that
>many actually know that there is an opera that the overture goes with,
>nor even that the word "overture" implies a larger work to follow [*],
>but they do understand that "overture" is part of the title for this
>piece -- in contrast to that other well-known piece known simply as "The
>Barber of Seville" (with the last word pronounced to rhyme with "bill").
I am worried that we are now raising a generation who won't even recognize
it *that* way.
>mdl
>(whose favorite Rossini overture is the Gazza Ladra)
_Semiramide_ here, but partly because of its use in "Unfaithfully Yours."
>[*] Or does it? Come to think of it, the other overture most beloved
>of Americans, the "1812 Overture", stands alone, doesn't it?
--
lav...@webtv.net
(Did I really say that? :)
Mark D. Lew
<ench...@herodotus.com> wrote:
> We usually call it, from the punchline of a dirty joke:
>
> "Titty rump titty rump titty rump rump rump"
But isn't that yet another American bastardization? The European version
of the joke ("titty bum titty bum titty bum bum bum") seems to match the
music better.
mdl
(who, in this context, tends to appreciate the quavers more than the
semiquavers -- though both are nice)
GRNDPADAVE
is nothing less than a miniature four movement symphony.
The first movement begins daringly with a melody for cellos and double basses,
the like of which was not heard again until Villa Lobos penned his marvelous
Bacchianas Brasilleros Number 5 (recall Bidu Sayao's classic recording).
The second movement is a storm not unworthy of Beethoven's Pastorale Symphony
(Rossini was a great admirer of Beethoven).
The third movement is the most famous "ranz des vaches" ever composed with
lovely flute solos.
The last movement is most brilliant. It's antecedent is the first movement
theme of Haydn's Symphony No 100 ("The Miliatry") and it inspired Von Suppe's
Light Cavalry Overture and the wonderful Radetzky March by Johann Strauss, sr.
Rossini was a master musician and this orverture, for one, reveals it.
It is a pity, imho, that little which follows is worthy of the masterpiece that
precedes raising the curtain on Rossini's ultimate stage work.
==G/P Dave
Leonard Tillman
"Lewisohn Stadium- June, 1966. Metropolitan Opera concert starring
Renata Tebaldi, with Met orchestra. First selection: William Tell
Overture. I was seated in the 6th or 7th row. When the famous theme from
this overture began, a gentleman (?) in the very first row stood up,
turned toward the audience, and yelled at the top of his voice, "Hi ho
Silver, awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!"
-- Well, SOMEBODY had to !!
(I don't believe _I_ actually would've , though!)
Best, LT
"Actions may speak louder than words---BUT are they saying what we
THINK they're saying?" "And furthermore, how's a fella supposed to
handle problems one at a time - when they REFUSE to get in line??"
Leonard Tillman
consequently not likely to be a Met staple any time soon........But it's
so GORGEOUS!! (LONE RANGER theme and all.....by near-end of the
"gallop", the beloved Clayton Moore, lifelong hero to many of us of a
certain vintage, always had the villain not only unhorsed, - but poised
for the final right-cross to the jaw , delivered grandly, of
course!!.......Yeah , off-topic, I know, I know...but then, ain't this a
"horse-OPERA"??)
Leonard Tillman
A Tsar Is Born
"Ed Rosen" <custo...@earthlink.net> wrote in
> Lewisohn Stadium- June, 1966. Metropolitan Opera concert starring Renata
> Tebaldi, with Met orchestra. First selection: William Tell Overture. I was
> seated in the 6th or 7th row. When the famous theme from this overture
began,
> a gentleman (?) in the very first row stood up, turned toward the
audience,
> and yelled at the top of his voice, "Hi ho Silver,
awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!"
This obviously CANNOT have occurred as quoted by Mr. Rosen's clearly
defective memory:
"Hi ho Silver awaaaaaaay" is not what the Lone Ranger ever said, and
furhermore cannot be yelled by anyone. The two aitches are not pronounceable
in a yell.
The correct quote, which I'm sure is what Mr. Rosen really heard on this
occasion, is:
"Hiyo Silver, awaaaaaaay!"
Pedantically,
Hans "Enry Iggins" Lick
atsar...@hotmail.com
A Tsar Is Born
Right on!
Linda Darnell forever!
Hans Lick
Leonard Tillman
once or twice and find out why so VERY MANY opera-lovers adore this
music has obviously too small a mind to be worth trying to introduce
good music to.
Hans Lick
atsar...@hotmail.co"
- Just maybe a tiny bit overstated, though there IS, of
course much beautiful music that, indeed, so VERY MANY adore!
but regarding the beginning of this quote, - how bigoted would it BE to
otherwise despise Wagner, one of music's most HATEFUL BIGOTS HIMSELF?
Matthew B. Tepper
<20010407075036...@ng-bd1.aol.com>:
>The overture is a marvelous piece. Consider the originality of its
>form. It is nothing less than a miniature four movement symphony.
>
>The first movement begins daringly with a melody for cellos and double
>basses, the like of which was not heard again until Villa Lobos penned
>his marvelous Bacchianas Brasilleros Number 5 (recall Bidu Sayao's
>classic recording).
*cough*(Berlioz' orchestration of Weber's "Aufforderung zum Tanz.")
>The second movement is a storm not unworthy of Beethoven's Pastorale
>Symphony (Rossini was a great admirer of Beethoven).
>
>The third movement is the most famous "ranz des vaches" ever composed
>with lovely flute solos.
>
>The last movement is most brilliant. It's antecedent is the first
>movement theme of Haydn's Symphony No 100 ("The Miliatry") and it
>inspired Von Suppe's Light Cavalry Overture and the wonderful Radetzky
>March by Johann Strauss, sr.
>
>Rossini was a master musician and this orverture, for one, reveals it.
>
>It is a pity, imho, that little which follows is worthy of the
>masterpiece that precedes raising the curtain on Rossini's ultimate
>stage work.
>
>==G/P Dave
--
horizon
listen to 10 Parsifals in a row before sitting through a single Rossini
opera.
Matt C
What does Parsifal have, except
> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz?
>
> I wouldn't go to a Domingo Parsifal if you paid me $1000.00, plus
> transportantion and two nights at a hotel. Just not worth the boredom.
>
> Don Tomasso
>
>
> Don Tomasso
GRNDPADAVE
so GORGEOUS!! (LONE RANGER theme and all.....by near-end of the
"gallop", the beloved Clayton Moore, lifelong hero to many of us of a
certain vintage, always had the villain not only unhorsed, - but poised
for the final right-cross to the jaw , delivered grandly, of
course!!.......Yeah , off-topic, I know, I know...but then, ain't this a
"horse-OPERA"??)
My L.R. will always be radio's Brace Beamer.
Kix may be for kids, but the Long Ranger (as I used to think of him -- because
he was so tall) is for everybody.
==G/P Dave
Ed Rosen
and too damn boring. Call me close minded, but certainly not bigoted.
Moments of Wagner are glorious, but for me the whole operas, for the most
part, are just too much too bear.
Viva Verdi!
Ed
Ed Rosen
man yelled "Hi-ho." So it wasn't Clayton Moore. Sue him. My memory is not
defective- your post is.
Ed
A Tsar Is Born wrote:
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 04/07/2001 11:13 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <26241-3A...@storefull-213.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Hans Lick's comment is aimed at an esteemed subscriber who once *did* enjoy
much of Wagner's music but now acknowledges Act I of DIE WALKUERE as being
worth while. I think this is an expression of taste and does not indicate
mindless bigotry. Hans Lick doesn't generally insult people, but I think he
has done so here.
Leonard Tillman I think has stated a position that I find would agree with
although I think "a tiny bit overstated" is perhaps overly tactful.
I despise Wagners prose almost as much as I enjoy his music. Today's PARSIFAL
has offered me much to admire, especially in Act II.
==G/P Dave
Leonard Tillman
"
Group: rec.music.opera Date: Sat, Apr 7, 2001, 5:58pm (EDT+4) From:
custo...@earthlink.net (Ed Rosen)
To settle this, I must say that I've HEARD some say hi ho , and
heard, yet others, exclaim hiyo, BUT though hiyo is what SHOULDA been
said, HI HO is, in fact what often WAS said by many of the Ranger's
devotees ( Heck, I've been guilty of it MYSELF, already)!!
Hopfully, this'll restore "peace in the valley" (whoops, I meant
hopEfully)!
Leonard Tillman
anymore, to speak of! BTW, "KIX" always seemed way too "starchy"!!
"Cheerios" remained my choice. The Lone Ranger's other sponsor,
Silvercup Bread is, TMK, Kaput!!
Ed Rosen
certainly is possible to yell "hi-ho." I just did it. Hans says it is
impossible, and that is why Wagner wrote "Ho-yo-to-ho." Did you ever hear
the Seven Dwarfs sing "Hi-ho, hi-ho, it's off to work I go." They certainly
don't sing "Hi-yo."
Ed
REG
Ed Rosen <custo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3ACF79D3...@earthlink.net...
A Tsar Is Born
> news:3ACF79D3...@earthlink.net...
> > As I just wrote Hans Lick privately, in response to his private e-mail,
it
> > certainly is possible to yell "hi-ho." I just did it. Hans says it is
> > impossible, and that is why Wagner wrote "Ho-yo-to-ho." Did you ever
hear
> > the Seven Dwarfs sing "Hi-ho, hi-ho, it's off to work I go." They
> certainly
> > don't sing "Hi-yo."
But they take a breath after each "Hi-ho".
The phrase "Hiyo Silver, awaaaaaaayyyyyyyy!" must be taken on one breath (as
my voice teacher used to point out), whereas (as Wagner well knew when he
wrote the Valkyrie War Cry) "Hi ho" cannot be sung in the same phrase with
anything beyond it.
Thus "Hoyotoho", from the same place as "Hiyo Silver".
Hoho to ho could not have been sung even by Flagstad.
It would return us to Toho Bohu, which is both primeval chaos (as recorded
in the Torah) and a neighborhood of New York where the waiters intone
Rossini in kosher restaurants on High Holy Days such as his birthday (feb
29th).
In the beginning was the properly expressed "Hiyo Silver"
No, this is ANCIENT. It goes back to RADIO.
Pedantically,
Hans Lick
atsar...@hotmail.com
Customoper
>Hoho to ho could not have been sung even by Flagstad.
So what about hoyotoyo??????????
For free catalog of live opera on CD, video, and audio cassettes, please e-mail
your name and mailing address.
Mark D. Lew
tapef...@webtv.net (Leonard Tillman) wrote:
> The one flaw is it's duration being greater than most would prefer, and
> consequently not likely to be a Met staple any time soon........
Well, to each his own, but I for one have no problem with the duration.
And I certainly don't give a hoot whether it's going to be a Met staple.
Surely Met-produce-ability isn't a standard by which we should judge the
greatness of a piece.
==
In article <20010407075036...@ng-bd1.aol.com>,
grndp...@aol.com (GRNDPADAVE) wrote:
> It is a pity, imho, that little which follows is worthy of the
masterpiece that
> precedes raising the curtain on Rossini's ultimate stage work.
Indeed. Can anyone here tell us whether the overture was written
specifically for this opera? One rather suspects it was not.
mdl
(who enjoys Rossini overtures rather more than he enjoys Rossini operas)
Leonard Tillman
necessarily meaning MY OWN PREFERENCE. But something "greater than most
would prefer" MIGHT result in, or "translate to"
the Met, and other houses NOT giving this, IMO, gem.
Of course,
produceability should not be a
criterion for judging "Tell's" worth!
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 04/07/2001 10:37 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <markdlew-ya0240800...@news.earthlink.net>
Rossini's tone poem could have been associated with no other opera but WILLIAM
TELL.
In creating overtures that dwarf what follows, Rossini, imho, is in the
estimable company of Carl Maria von Weber.
EURYANTHE and OBERON are operas that have magnificent overtures only to be
followed by rather dreary numbers. DER FREISCHUETZ, on the other hand, is an
opera that should be staged every Oktoberfest -- it is the "lederhoesen" opera
par excellence. In fact it is so good -- worthy of Mozart -- that te mystery
is why it is staged so rarely.
Another opera in this category, imho, is BENVENUTO CELLINI.
These operas by Weber and Berlioz are richly melodious and have great rhythmic
verve, characteristics they share with many of Rossini's overtures.
==G/P Dave
Jon Davis
>followed by rather dreary numbers.
I can't agree here. Possibly they are followed by flawed libretti, but the
musical numbers, IMVHO, are all top-notch.
>Another opera in this category, imho, is BENVENUTO CELLINI.
Again, I do not agree. BENVENUTO CELLINI is certainly among my top 10 favorite
operas, and I believe that most, if not all, of the music is certainly equal
to it's Overture.
Jon Davis
If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something.
Tom Kaufman
>listen to 10 Parsifals in a row before sitting through a single Rossini
>opera.
>
>Matt C
>
> What does Parsifal have, except
>> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz?
>>
hand, I love Rossini. Not as much as do Donizetti, Bellini, Pacini, Mercadante,
Meyerbeer, Auber, Halevy, Verdi etc.--but I do try to play most of his operas
once in a while.
As for mature Wagner---never, ever. He lacks what I enjoy most---the wonderful
cabalettas for tenor, for example. Rousing stuff like Corriam voliam and Di
quella pira. I would rather have one good Corriam voliam than all of Wagner's
operas except for Walkuere and Lohengrin.
But there also is a great trio and a great love duet in William Tell. The
fisherman's little aria is also stunning.
Parsifal--ugh ugh ugh
De gustibus
Skip
Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti, Verdi are the real Kings.........
"Tom Kaufman" <tomk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010408093843...@ng-ba1.aol.com...
Terrymelin
love both to be small-minded and uninformed.
Terry Ellsworth
Skip
Is one small minded also because they like porter house steak over filet
mignon?
It's a matter of taste sir.
"Terrymelin" <terry...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010408105312...@ng-df1.aol.com...
Richard Loeb
fine. What is tiresome is the same people on this ng over and over saying
they don't like Wagner - we understand - we get your point - you don't have
to tell us a hundred times - how tedious."Skip"
<!sk...@nospam.com.nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:A1%z6.11293$lj.9...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
Henson Keys
> Well if you really need a nap, you would enjoy most of Wagner's operas.
> Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti, Verdi are the real Kings.........
How can you place Rossini in this exalted company?
I just don't get it. Other than technical and ornamental pleasures, what
actually appeals to so many posters about this composer?
For me, Wagner is a great pleasure. I'm never bored, even in the
longest passages. The intellectual and emotional depth of Wagner's
late-career operas amazes me.
But I fall dead asleep if I get within twenty miles of "una voce poco
fa".
Skip
the best parts of his operas, (and it's time to go home)
"Henson Keys" <ac...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9apvv7$2vb$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
Skip
is.............How tedious. "Richard"
"Richard Loeb" <loe...@home.com> wrote in message
news:4i%z6.31991$Os.71...@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...
horizon
Bruckner and Mahler, which other people find quite boring. Wagner is
probably not the composer for someone who prefers most of the composers you
mention (I very specifically exclude Verdi from my comments -- whose middle
and mature works are deserve far better than to be lumped in with the rest
of those rather forgettable composers). But as they say, to each his own.
I mean, some people actually prefer Brittany Spears to jazz and classical
music, which is probably the same thing as preferring "Italian/French lite"
to Wagner. You can take a person to the opera house, but you cannot teach
them gravitas.
horizon
the Ring any day, not to mention Les Troyens.
Matt C
Tom Kaufman
Terry Ellsworth<<
That is one of the most small minded and uninformed statements I have read on
r.m.o. in a long time. Mr. Ellsworth, you are entitled to like whatever you
like. Just don't expect others to share your taste.
I, for one, happen to be well informed about Wagner. I know just what an
anti-semitic swine he was. I know that when 900 people died at a fire in a
Vienna theatre, his only comment was "serves them right for attending an opera
by Offenbach". I also know what miserable lies he spread about other composers.
I have also seen most of his works at the Met--many with the greatest Wagnerian
singers of the past century. And have owned countless versions of the tenor
music from Lohengrin, walkuere, Tannhauser and other works.Perhaps you could
say that my taste has matured, and that I now would rather spend my time
listening to what I enjoy the most. I could go on and on, but see no point to
it.
I also happen to have a great deal of respect for G/P Dave, a real gentleman,
who happens to like Wagner, but not Rossini. That is his right, and I would not
dream of challenging his liking for Wagner. Nor would he dream of challenging
mine for Rossini.
You, Mr. Ellsworth are a different kettle of fish. Your motto seems to be:
"Agree with me, or I will deem you a small minded idiot."
If you think that bothers me, you are mistaken.
TK
Richard Loeb
the "how tedious" well I suppose imitation is the sincerest form of
flattery.
"Skip" <!sk...@nospam.com.nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:tu%z6.11297$lj.9...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
AT
:-))))
Skip wrote in message ...
Skip
ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, expept maybe Parifal.
"horizon" <mcarn...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:PK%z6.812$l5.6...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
Ernest Jones
nap on both occasions! However the music is glorious; as good as
anything Wagner ever wrote and my somnolent moments are my fault not
his! Maybe the stage director had something to do with it too?
Ernest Jones
Retired. Music & Cruise Crazy Brit.
Sunny Isles Beach, Fl.
Life is an Opera
Matthew B. Tepper
114.iap.bryant.webtv.net>:
>I have seen Parsifal twice live and have to admit I did take a little
>nap on both occasions! However the music is glorious; as good as
>anything Wagner ever wrote and my somnolent moments are my fault not
>his! Maybe the stage director had something to do with it too?
Only once for me, in San Francisco in 1974 -- Jess Thomas, Eva Randova,
Thomas Stewart, and Kurt Moll, with Othmar Suitner conducting. I think I
maybe, well, missed out on a little of Act III. The subscription series I
had included the performance of _Parsifal_ on Yom Kippur, but fortunately I
was able to trade with a friend for a different one!
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Top 3 worst UK exports: Mad-cow; Hoof-and-mouth; Charlotte Church
horizon
appears to have eroded your mental faculties.
Opaffic
masterworks, for the life of me I can't understand the either/or mindset. With
regard specifically to Wagner "vs" Rossini, which sounds pretty funny to me
frankly, they represent such DIFFERENT aesthetics, inspire within me such
different emotional responses, I would never want to have to live without
either one. I feel fortunate that both lived and gave us such incredible music
to enjoy. Life holds so MANY varied pleasures......why limit oneself? There are
times when Parsifal touches something very deep within me, and times when a
brilliantly executed 'Rossini crescendo', or concerted ensemble has me giggling
and wanting to dance around then and there!
There are some composeres whose work I am still trying to 'get'.....I see it as
my lack, not theirs! Time has shown me how much my tastes and appreciations can
change and grow.....thank goodness!
Opaffic
Skip
Andre Edouard
word sparingly around opera, which in my view, perhaps not yours, is a
pleasant entertainment, not a religious experience, except when I listen
to Di Stefano.
Perhaps I feel a sense of seriousness, of rapt absorption in the
carryings on of Wagner's overworked and under brained demi-gods and
heroes is out of place in _my_ opera house.
I'm not allowed? I don't love what I choose to prefer over other
music?
I don't proselytize, why must "Wagner people?"
You can take me to the opera, but you can't infect me with
"gravitas."
If you do, I can cure it with "The Lone Ranger Overture."
Right, Don Tonto?
AndreEdouard
horizon
the most important musicians of the 19th century noise (and don't take my
word for it, just ask any musicologist), then what does that say about you.
Nothing like stimulating intellectual discussion on Usenet...
"Skip" <!sk...@nospam.com.nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:zq1A6.11321$lj.9...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
horizon
"gravitas"...be it in The Ring, Troyens, Don Carlos, or Figaro. I am less
impressed with opera that exists as a showpiece for empty vocal
gymnastics -- just as I prefer late Beethoven to Liszt, and Emil Gilels to
Vladimir Horowitz.
Now, the quote that started this particular foodfight was:
> I wouldn't go to a Domingo Parsifal if you paid me $1000.00, plus
> transportantion and two nights at a hotel. Just not worth the boredom.
So, don't blame the Wagnerians for trying to proselytize, when we're just
defending our turf.
As for "overworked and under brained demi-gods", there are more than a few
over-stimulated, under-brained lead characters in these silly, insubstantial
operas -- a clear illustration of the problem you face when there are too
many sopranos and tenors with resonance where they should have brains!
"Andre Edouard" <and...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3AD0A95F...@bellsouth.net...
Skip
To some ears it's music and to other's it's noise......
Some people love Rock and to them Opera is noise, and visa versa....news:lX1A6.11325$lj.9...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
REG
Terrymelin <terry...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010408105312...@ng-df1.aol.com...
REG
You can take a person to the opera house, but you cannot teach
them gravitas.
horizon <mcarn...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:8H%z6.811$l5.6...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
Terrymelin
I don't. But there is nothing more small-minded than to dismiss the entire body
of work of one of opera's major composers. If you can't see that that's what
makes you blind and small-minded.
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>anti-semitic swine he was. I know that when 900 people died at a fire in a
>Vienna theatre, his only comment was "serves them right for attending an
>opera
>by Offenbach". I also know what miserable lies he spread about other
>composers.
>
>
Exhibit two of your small-mindedness. If you let that deter you from listening,
understanding, and appreciating ANY artist then that is truly sad. Using your
standard people who detest overeaters should hate Rossini.
How unbelieveably silly.
Terry Ellsworth
Henson Keys
> I fear you've been spending too much time listening to La Sonnambula...it
> appears to have eroded your mental faculties.
Now, I love SONNAMBULA...but THAT'S a funny line.
Maybe it HAS eroded my mental faculties...all that happy peasant music???
Skip
many many hours of Wagner, we have the right not to like him over other
composers. I like some parts of Wagners opera's, but dislike more than I
like.
Some people don't like Ballet either....news:20010408153659...@ng-mr1.aol.com...
Skip
Skip
Siegfried Pinkerton
Tom Kaufman
>of work of one of opera's major composers. If you can't see that that's what
>makes you blind and small-minded.
>
composer. I have explored him, I am sure that I am much more familiar with him
than you are with any number of composers I prefer to Wagner--and I consider
him in the same light as the French did from perhaps 1850 to perhaps 1875: a
charlatan. No, I do not expect you to agree with me, and I don't care whether
you do or don't.
So, I have only dismissed him based on familiarity---and the familiarity tells
me that I have seen and heard all I plan to hear.
TK
Tom Kaufman
>listening,
>understanding, and appreciating ANY artist then that is truly sad. Using your
>standard people who detest overeaters should hate Rossini.
>
>How unbelieveably silly.
How can you compare overeaters to racists?
>
But I must admit, I already detested Wagner's music before I knew what a racist
he was.
Andre Edouard
to do, after all.
So..as the sun sets over the western horizon, remember I am supported
in all this by the infamous Don Tonto of Taranto.
Happy trails to you......
AndreEdouard
Tom Kaufman
>probably not the composer for someone who prefers most of the composers you
>mention (I very specifically exclude Verdi from my comments -- whose middle
>and mature works are deserve far better than to be lumped in with the rest
>of those rather forgettable composers). But as they say, to each his own.
>I mean, some people actually prefer Brittany Spears to jazz and classical
>music, which is probably the same thing as preferring "Italian/French lite"
>to Wagner. You can take a person to the opera house, but you cannot teach
>them gravitas.
>
music (for everybody, not just for you), than what you so derisively refer to
as French and Italian lite.
What sheer and unmitigated arrogance!!!!!! What makes you think that your
preferences are somehow better, or more worth-while than mine? And while we are
at it, how many "French lite" works have you heard? How many have you studied?
What do you know about them?
Believe me, I have better things to do with my evenings than to waste them at
some Wagner opera.
TK
Tom Kaufman
Anonymous:
Don't you know yet that insults are the last resort of people like you who are
unable to win arguments by the power of their words?
Whenever someone resorts to them, I immediately recognize that they have
surrendered. Even more so if they use what is obviously a phony name.
Crawl back under your rock and stay there.
Ancona21
Your card was denied; you've exceeded your limit.
Ancona For Amex
horizon
express your preferences and opinions. Personally, I don't that think there
is any question that Wagner is much more important in terms of the history
of music - although can completely accept that it is not your cup of tea.
But you set off this foodfight with your haughty attitude, and I just
responded in kind. When you learn to be civil about music you don't
understand or are emotionally unable to appreciate, then perhaps others will
respond to you in kind. Until then, you have absolutely no right to
complain when someone regards your shrill opinions with the contempt they
deserve. Arrogance begets even greater arrogance. I have made my position
100% clear.
Skip
"Ancona21" <anco...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010408195820...@ng-mn1.aol.com...
Andre Edouard
I didn't want to take a serious position in this Wagner thing.
But, it appears that like religion and its believers, Wagner is too
holy and serious a subject for even the slightest levity.
For myself, I couldn't care less about wagner, excuse me W, with a
kapital wubbleyou. That's a matter of taste..taste..non-arguable.
Why does that Wagner's music attract a higher percentage of
humorless, ultra-serious, musical blue noses? Is it a post-hypnotic
reaction, denying all other gods? There's a question.
Why, some people view going to the opera as something less than a
religious experience. After the performance they go home and _don't_
analyze.
Tant pis..for the exclusionary Wagnerites. I'm going back to Di
Stefano and his excesses, at least they're real, warm, and human.
Siegfried Pinkerton...that's a name..?
AndreEdouard